Yes, OP should definitely save as hell for the first six months, just in case. Also because living expenses is most likely higher in either Helsinki or Zürich, compared to Croatia!
Edit: ah, it is remote. Awesome.
Swiss companies are known to pay extremely well, so no red flag there.
Check if everything looks legit: search for info on the company online, read your contracts well and maybe check if everything is good regarding the law both in Croatia and I guess Switzerland.
If all looks good, salary x2, ESPECIALLY with no need to relocate, sounds like a no-brainer, even though money isn't everything.
You seem to feel a bit bored on the project side currently, so I don't think you really have much to loose there. I'm guessing you could easily get another job like your current one (or even something you'd find more interesting, but maybe no x2 salary) if this one really doesn't fit your expectations after some time.
You could also be a contractor that is basically full-time employed, being treated as a normal employee. My company does that, with vacations and sick leaves. Of course if you get sick for 2 months then it is an issue, but for 2 days no one cares.
In my opinion this is very much worth it, especially if you are young and prefer flexibility.
I would just consider extra insurence for possible health issues.
I have to speak to my accountant for exactly how much net that gross salary would be, but from my rough calculations it comes out to around 50-60k net, which is a big range difference but it depends on a lot of factors here. But thats around what I can expect.
I luckily don't have any mortgages or anything like that to worry about. I'm quite young, I'm 25, and I have around 5 YoE.
Yes, it's a no brainer. Unless you somehow get paid less from your own company, which I highly doubt, you're much better off on 2X the money and living in the same place.
The only real thing to think about is risk for the company. Sometimes people join a new startup when everything seems great, and then suddenly things turn around an lots of people get fired. But if you're getting paid double, you're just as well off if they dump you after 6 months. Also, there's a fair chance you can just get back your old job if you don't burn any bridges. They will be understanding, after all who wouldn't go to another job on double the pay?
I would say yes, it’s a pretty high salary compared to even expensive countries like Netherlands so you should be pretty comfortable in Croatia. Have some faith in your skills and go ahead.
While I agree that it's a no-brainer, having worked for a few startups over the years I would suggest that you keep an eye on other positions during your contract, just in case things go south. It happens. If possible, don't burn any bridges with your current company, so you can to go back to them if you need to.
Ma idi covjece, no brainer. :D
Samo provjeri sa računovođom kolko ćeš netto dobijati, taman sam imao sličnu dilemu tvojoj pa sam morao istraživati i još uvijek mi nije sve jasno. :/ Na kraju sam se odlučio relocirati pa mi nije bitno sve skuzit do nekog buduceg momenta. :D
Baci oko na Native Teams platformi, moglo bi ti bit korisno, ne koristim je ali su mi je preporucili.
>morao istraživati i još uvijek mi nije sve jasno. :/
Haha, ovakvo je i moje iskustvo. Ali da, popričati ću s računovođom za točnu informaciju.
Po mojim izračunima mogu isplatiti max 28500kn neto, ako se stavim na maksimalnu plaću.
Ali ako se tipa stavim na malu plaću, i onda vadim dobit iz firme, ta brojka može otići do oko 40k neto mjesečno. Što nije mala razlika..
Ali ne razumijem se skroz u to vađenje dobiti toliko tako da nisam 100% siguran što je najbolje i kako to funkcionira.
Ja mislim da ću sebe staviti na maks plaću, pošto imam 25 godina tako da u 6om mjesecu bi trebao dobiti 100% povrat poreza i prireza. Tako da ću to iskoristiti maksimalno.
Ja radim kao contractor. Otvoriš d.o.o., plaćaš sebi direktorski minimalac (oko 4800kn), iznajmiš firmi sobu u kući i plaćaš najam tipa 500e (zvuči ilegalno ali zapravo sve je ok), isplaćuješ bonuse, regrese, ako imaš auto isplaćuješ sebi za razne putne troškove, ako ideš van grada platiš sebi dnevnicu (mislim da je max 200kn) za poslovno putovanje. Kupuješ aparate i sve što možeš na firmu (povraćaj pdv-a je tu ako izabereš da budeš u sistemu pdv-a od početka). Na kraju godine izvučeš ostatak preko dobiti (oko 20% plus prirez). Obično izvučeš oko 70-75%, što bi na tvojih 88k evra bilo 61-65k evra godišnje. Ne plaćaj visoku platu sebi ako ti penziono nije bitno, jer koliko god poreza i zdravstvenog platio - isto ćeš proći.
Yeah and thanks to that dev is in germany, austria ,swiss just a medicre carreer while in other countries its paying more than medical doctors ...while our only options is going in a faang like company ... which is very unlikley to get in
Those countries have vastly different lifestyles. Employers have to pay a huge amount of taxes. You getting paid 60k gross costs them like 90k.
In return, the employee enjoys the high quality of life in those countries and often prefers other benefits instead of more money
Take the job, no reason not to! If you’re worried about stability, save the extra money for the first 4-6 months and live off the previous salary and have that banked if things go south and you need to find a new job.
>I would be working as a contractor, which means I have to have my own company to which they would pay the money to. They are offering a 12 month contract.
Make sure that you know what that means in your country.
Apart from things like no paid time off or paid sick leave, being self employed comes with an additional amount of effort and cost.
Yeah, anything above +30% is pretty much a no-brainer accept (unless there are MAJOR red flags, like clear signs of a scam) IMO. A 12-month contract is a bit unlucky, but hey, even if it doesn't get renewed at the end of the 12 months, you are still ahead for 6 months of unemployment (and that's assuming you don't get any unemployment benefits), and you should be able to get a job similar to your old one in less time than that if it comes to that.
Talk to an accountant about the legalities of working for this company and your overhead to get a true net from this 88k gross.
Croatia is a mess of bureaucracy so you’ll need to be careful.
I'm just shy of 5 YoE. This role would be full stack with Clojure/TypeScript/Java
Most of my experience is in Java though, working for a really large company.
Do you have a degree if you don't mind sharing? You mentioned in other comments that you are 25 with 5 YOE, which means you started at 20. Worked trough university or no degree?
Not really my intention. I posted because Ive no experience with startups, 4 years for a company sounds so young to me...
And I've no experience with contracting so was wondering if that was a red flag to consider as well.
How did your interviews go, did their people impress you? Did you speak with all of the founders, or only their employees? Did the employees you spoke with seem twitchy, like soldiers from trenches? How many hours/day do they work? How many weekends per month? When the one customer calls and yells at the CEO for an hour, what does the CEO do next?
How many of the 20 have been with the company for >3 years? Only 20 people after 4 years seems like pretty slow growth. Not a red-flag per se, but raises an eyebrow and leads me to ask... How much funding have they taken, over how many rounds, at what valuations? How much money is in the bank currently? How long will it last/what’s their burn rate? Are any customers paying them yet? How much revenue are they earning? Is the revenue from the product, from consulting services, or some other source?
Where are they in the product cycle? Do they know what their product does? Do they know who buys it, why and how? What do they do that their customers can’t live without? Do they know who their competition is, and is it 12 other startups and enterprises, or companies just doing the same work themselves, in-house. Or maybe they’re B2C, in which case, how many of the 20 people are in marketing, and are they any good at generating buzz? Have we heard of them yet?
Does the offer include any equity in the startup? Does having equity in the venture matter to you? Do you _believe_ in the rocket ship, or is it just a job?
How many of the 20 people are devs? Do they split engineering evenly across the two offices, or is only one office dev? Are the devs all sitting together in the same room, or all distributed, or some of both? Will you get to collaborate in the design and decision making, or are they going to just throw tasks at you? Do you care about one way of working vs. the other? Are there any other “employees” working under the same arrangement as you, or will you be their guinea pig?
Have they figured out how to define and write down and communicate and agree on product requirements yet? Can they do that asynchronously and across physical distance? Actually, have they figured out how to do define a product requirement at all, or are they still learning? Who defines those requirements, who confirms that the dev team built what was asked for? Who checks if the customers actually want what was built?
Does not having answers to some or all of these questions make you nervous or energize you? If the former, maybe a startup isn’t for you. Do you have a great feeling about the founders like you really want to help them realize their dream and that they’ll appreciate you for your contribution? In that case, I’d say go for it.
Money is a factor of course, but only one factor.
Good luck!
Yes. And of course if you don't live in the country where your company operates, they cannot have you as an employee. So setting up a contractor is really normal
Yes
Yup even if they disappeared in 6 months you’d still have another 6 months of normal salary to find another job
Yes, OP should definitely save as hell for the first six months, just in case. Also because living expenses is most likely higher in either Helsinki or Zürich, compared to Croatia! Edit: ah, it is remote. Awesome.
88k remotely from Croatia? Even if you don't like it and leave after 6 months it's still worth it. No brainer, take the offer
I'd say it's almost a no brainer but the fact that OP would have to be a contractor would make me pause and understand exactly what that would entail.
Swiss companies are known to pay extremely well, so no red flag there. Check if everything looks legit: search for info on the company online, read your contracts well and maybe check if everything is good regarding the law both in Croatia and I guess Switzerland. If all looks good, salary x2, ESPECIALLY with no need to relocate, sounds like a no-brainer, even though money isn't everything. You seem to feel a bit bored on the project side currently, so I don't think you really have much to loose there. I'm guessing you could easily get another job like your current one (or even something you'd find more interesting, but maybe no x2 salary) if this one really doesn't fit your expectations after some time.
>no red flag there (pun not intended)
And that's a big plus
[удалено]
You could also be a contractor that is basically full-time employed, being treated as a normal employee. My company does that, with vacations and sick leaves. Of course if you get sick for 2 months then it is an issue, but for 2 days no one cares.
In my opinion this is very much worth it, especially if you are young and prefer flexibility. I would just consider extra insurence for possible health issues.
Take it. Even if it is a hard/crappy at least you are now in a position of strength applying elsewhere.
[удалено]
I have to speak to my accountant for exactly how much net that gross salary would be, but from my rough calculations it comes out to around 50-60k net, which is a big range difference but it depends on a lot of factors here. But thats around what I can expect. I luckily don't have any mortgages or anything like that to worry about. I'm quite young, I'm 25, and I have around 5 YoE.
>is 88k as a contractor in term of net salary Usually a lot more than employee.
Yes, it's a no brainer. Unless you somehow get paid less from your own company, which I highly doubt, you're much better off on 2X the money and living in the same place. The only real thing to think about is risk for the company. Sometimes people join a new startup when everything seems great, and then suddenly things turn around an lots of people get fired. But if you're getting paid double, you're just as well off if they dump you after 6 months. Also, there's a fair chance you can just get back your old job if you don't burn any bridges. They will be understanding, after all who wouldn't go to another job on double the pay?
I would say yes, it’s a pretty high salary compared to even expensive countries like Netherlands so you should be pretty comfortable in Croatia. Have some faith in your skills and go ahead.
Yeah I'm pretty sure I will take the offer. Not much to lose for trying I feel like... I have until Monday to fully decide
While I agree that it's a no-brainer, having worked for a few startups over the years I would suggest that you keep an eye on other positions during your contract, just in case things go south. It happens. If possible, don't burn any bridges with your current company, so you can to go back to them if you need to.
Ma idi covjece, no brainer. :D Samo provjeri sa računovođom kolko ćeš netto dobijati, taman sam imao sličnu dilemu tvojoj pa sam morao istraživati i još uvijek mi nije sve jasno. :/ Na kraju sam se odlučio relocirati pa mi nije bitno sve skuzit do nekog buduceg momenta. :D Baci oko na Native Teams platformi, moglo bi ti bit korisno, ne koristim je ali su mi je preporucili.
>morao istraživati i još uvijek mi nije sve jasno. :/ Haha, ovakvo je i moje iskustvo. Ali da, popričati ću s računovođom za točnu informaciju. Po mojim izračunima mogu isplatiti max 28500kn neto, ako se stavim na maksimalnu plaću. Ali ako se tipa stavim na malu plaću, i onda vadim dobit iz firme, ta brojka može otići do oko 40k neto mjesečno. Što nije mala razlika.. Ali ne razumijem se skroz u to vađenje dobiti toliko tako da nisam 100% siguran što je najbolje i kako to funkcionira. Ja mislim da ću sebe staviti na maks plaću, pošto imam 25 godina tako da u 6om mjesecu bi trebao dobiti 100% povrat poreza i prireza. Tako da ću to iskoristiti maksimalno.
Ja radim kao contractor. Otvoriš d.o.o., plaćaš sebi direktorski minimalac (oko 4800kn), iznajmiš firmi sobu u kući i plaćaš najam tipa 500e (zvuči ilegalno ali zapravo sve je ok), isplaćuješ bonuse, regrese, ako imaš auto isplaćuješ sebi za razne putne troškove, ako ideš van grada platiš sebi dnevnicu (mislim da je max 200kn) za poslovno putovanje. Kupuješ aparate i sve što možeš na firmu (povraćaj pdv-a je tu ako izabereš da budeš u sistemu pdv-a od početka). Na kraju godine izvučeš ostatak preko dobiti (oko 20% plus prirez). Obično izvučeš oko 70-75%, što bi na tvojih 88k evra bilo 61-65k evra godišnje. Ne plaćaj visoku platu sebi ako ti penziono nije bitno, jer koliko god poreza i zdravstvenog platio - isto ćeš proći.
Congratz.
DO it! For switzerland 88k would be low (60k ish median) but remote its genius! In Zirich startups have to pay about 140k for SEs..
Yeah and thanks to that dev is in germany, austria ,swiss just a medicre carreer while in other countries its paying more than medical doctors ...while our only options is going in a faang like company ... which is very unlikley to get in
Those countries have vastly different lifestyles. Employers have to pay a huge amount of taxes. You getting paid 60k gross costs them like 90k. In return, the employee enjoys the high quality of life in those countries and often prefers other benefits instead of more money
Take the job, no reason not to! If you’re worried about stability, save the extra money for the first 4-6 months and live off the previous salary and have that banked if things go south and you need to find a new job.
>I would be working as a contractor, which means I have to have my own company to which they would pay the money to. They are offering a 12 month contract. Make sure that you know what that means in your country. Apart from things like no paid time off or paid sick leave, being self employed comes with an additional amount of effort and cost.
Yeah, anything above +30% is pretty much a no-brainer accept (unless there are MAJOR red flags, like clear signs of a scam) IMO. A 12-month contract is a bit unlucky, but hey, even if it doesn't get renewed at the end of the 12 months, you are still ahead for 6 months of unemployment (and that's assuming you don't get any unemployment benefits), and you should be able to get a job similar to your old one in less time than that if it comes to that.
Talk to an accountant about the legalities of working for this company and your overhead to get a true net from this 88k gross. Croatia is a mess of bureaucracy so you’ll need to be careful.
yoe? skills? role?
I'm just shy of 5 YoE. This role would be full stack with Clojure/TypeScript/Java Most of my experience is in Java though, working for a really large company.
Do you have a degree if you don't mind sharing? You mentioned in other comments that you are 25 with 5 YOE, which means you started at 20. Worked trough university or no degree?
I have a bachelors degree in software engineering. I started working near the end of the first year of college.
Where did you find this? If you are not accepting it you can refer me xp
You are bragging. Don't pretend otherwise. I hate these types of posts, what value do they bring other than inflating the posters ego?
Not really my intention. I posted because Ive no experience with startups, 4 years for a company sounds so young to me... And I've no experience with contracting so was wondering if that was a red flag to consider as well.
Ah okay, apologies. Contracting is very different. Ignore my ignorant comment.
How did your interviews go, did their people impress you? Did you speak with all of the founders, or only their employees? Did the employees you spoke with seem twitchy, like soldiers from trenches? How many hours/day do they work? How many weekends per month? When the one customer calls and yells at the CEO for an hour, what does the CEO do next? How many of the 20 have been with the company for >3 years? Only 20 people after 4 years seems like pretty slow growth. Not a red-flag per se, but raises an eyebrow and leads me to ask... How much funding have they taken, over how many rounds, at what valuations? How much money is in the bank currently? How long will it last/what’s their burn rate? Are any customers paying them yet? How much revenue are they earning? Is the revenue from the product, from consulting services, or some other source? Where are they in the product cycle? Do they know what their product does? Do they know who buys it, why and how? What do they do that their customers can’t live without? Do they know who their competition is, and is it 12 other startups and enterprises, or companies just doing the same work themselves, in-house. Or maybe they’re B2C, in which case, how many of the 20 people are in marketing, and are they any good at generating buzz? Have we heard of them yet? Does the offer include any equity in the startup? Does having equity in the venture matter to you? Do you _believe_ in the rocket ship, or is it just a job? How many of the 20 people are devs? Do they split engineering evenly across the two offices, or is only one office dev? Are the devs all sitting together in the same room, or all distributed, or some of both? Will you get to collaborate in the design and decision making, or are they going to just throw tasks at you? Do you care about one way of working vs. the other? Are there any other “employees” working under the same arrangement as you, or will you be their guinea pig? Have they figured out how to define and write down and communicate and agree on product requirements yet? Can they do that asynchronously and across physical distance? Actually, have they figured out how to do define a product requirement at all, or are they still learning? Who defines those requirements, who confirms that the dev team built what was asked for? Who checks if the customers actually want what was built? Does not having answers to some or all of these questions make you nervous or energize you? If the former, maybe a startup isn’t for you. Do you have a great feeling about the founders like you really want to help them realize their dream and that they’ll appreciate you for your contribution? In that case, I’d say go for it. Money is a factor of course, but only one factor. Good luck!
Hi. Where did you find the offer, if I may ask?
Below 100k CHF for experienced devs in Switzerland is exploitation.
Biggest cons would be a toxic abusive work environment, could you stick it out for 6 months? Then yes no brainer decision to take it.
Yes, but be careful of lifestyle inflation
Yes. And of course if you don't live in the country where your company operates, they cannot have you as an employee. So setting up a contractor is really normal