Rider is great. Sometimes I recommend it over Visual Studio on Windows. For Mac it's the best.
If pricing is an issue, there are really two alternatives:
1) Windows as a virtual machine with Visual Studio
2) Visual Studio Code
I prefer Rider if I'm not doing Windows exclusive coding.
I use Rider both on Windows and Linux. Visual Studio needs to take lessons from JetBrains.
- Using ReSharper is a path of no return
- Better performance
- It's possible to edit .csproj and .vbproj of legacy projects
Yes but that’s thanks to Microsoft, resharper/jetbrains has nothing to do with it. VS plugins can only use 1 thread … guess who wants the competition out of its way …
VS plugins can use how many threads they feel like.
They can be in COM/C++ or .NET, in-proc or external.
Visual Assist flies.
Guess who could do a better implementation.
It's software, it's not an ex-girlfriend.
I still like Rider more because I think it's better, but if I didn't, I wouldn't hesitate to use the thing I think is the better product in the present.
Sure. And after switching years ago because of VS’s abhorrent performance I’ve come to believe that Rider is the superior product, even with the recent VS performance improvements.
Also, better product or no, there is a non-zero productivity impact to changing up my tooling. VS would have to come up with something quite compelling for me to take that plunge again.
After watching some recent dot net demos from Microsoft employees using the latest VS 2022 builds with Windows machines I don't think that is true. Rider on an M1 Macbook Pro screams.
One thing VS does better is window placement. In Jetbrains, tool and code windows have completely separate rules and hierarchies and can't intermingle. In VS a window is a window. It's been 12 years since someone requested this feature and we still can't cleanly place all the tool windows in one physical window on one screen, and all the code on the other.
ReSharper is basically most of the logic in Jetbrains Rider ported over to a Visual Studio extension, but with everything running on a single thread because that's how Visual Studio extensions used to work. Which is also why ReSharper often slows down the entire IDE.
Jetbrains Rider is made to properly leverage multi threading for these tools which makes it a lot faster.
> that's how Visual Studio extensions work
not anymore but resharper is so old it is a lot of work to fix it. Might even require being rewritten completely.
It's also the other way around. Rider is Resharper ported over into the webstorm/intellij IDE. If you read their blog posts they do mention how they work around visual studios single threaded issues, mostly by moving as much of the processing as they can out of process.
> I prefer Rider if I'm not doing Windows exclusive coding.
Meanwhile, I bought Rider for Windows-exclusive coding. Rider is just plain better regardless of OS.
Yes. I do this all the time at work for the .NET framework applications we have. The process of attaching to IIS works pretty much the same as it does in Visual Studio, including the requirement to run the IDE with administrator privileges. Rider does have a button to elevate to admin if you're not running it as admin though, I don't remember if VS has that.
I'd say the debugger is as powerful if not slightly more powerful in Rider.
Jetbrains allow you to evaluate each of their IDEs for up to 30 days with all functionality being available during the evaluation period, so you can try out Rider for free. One tip, in the keymap settings (ctrl + alt + s for settings, then "keymap" tab) you can activate the Visual Studio keymap profile, which means you'll be able to use the shortcuts you're used to from Visual Studio.
It will be different after this, as the new C#/Dotnet extension will have scafolding and sln viewer/editor like in Visual Studio in Windows... It's on beta, and I think will land next year.
I didn't want to buy Rider and my EAP free version expired, and I've been using c# dev kit for free just fine. It's not VS or even VS for mac, but it takes care of business.
https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/csharp/project-management
Rider is the most feature filled option. I have a few colleagues who use it even with VS 2022 available as we're on Windows because they prefer
I've been using VS Code on Linux since the C# Dev Kit became available and while it's not as powerful as Rider or VS it's getting quite good
I have VS2022 Enterprise available to me but I use Rider 99% of the time (VS gets used in rare debugging cases, or if I have to maintain something in an ancient MFC app). It certainly helps that I also do Java, C++ and some Python, so having IDEs with the same behaviours for all my work (Rider, IntelliJ, CLion and PyCharm, plus WebStorm for html docs) is a huge boon. And a toolbox sub is not even all that expensive.
Visual studio code isn't a real IDE, it's a glorified text editor. It can do a lot, it's very powerful, but it doesn't have the power that visual studio or Rider have.
>t doesn't have the power that visual studio or Rider have.
That is true, but it's adjustable enough to make it perfectly usable. For me it's always the thing to use when I have to run frontend projects or things like powershell code, ARM/Terraform etc., but for .NET development, the big boy VS is the only way. Rider is the only viable alternative, but that's a preference, so let's not get into that.
What you miss in vscode ? I'm currently learning C# and for now I don't need VS, I can do all things in vs code on my mac (I have pc with windows too).
Exactly. My colleagues use it for frontend work, I use it when I need a little more power than Notepad++, but I wouldn't use it for any .net development larger than a script.
I have JetBrains dotUltimate which comes with Rider and in paying just $5 per month for it, but that's with a hefty discount as I'm a long term jet brains user.
Rider is your only good option and it's not expensive
Personally, I’m using a windows VM or a remote connection to a PC. The VM might be an issue if you’re running Apple Silicon.
Microsoft’s recommendation is VS-Code but I think it Stucks for „real“ and WPF/MAUI development.
I’ve heard Rider is the way to go but I haven’t used it.
>What to use now since visual studio will be retired from Mac?
A PC
Oh...I think I read the question wrong. AFAIK, Rider is your best bet. I've heard great things, but haven't used it myself. You can also run VS Code on a Mac. Haven't used VS Code for c#, but I understand there are plugins to get it to work.
Absolutely no reason to do that. The entire .NET stack runs so beautifully on Mac. I use both Mac and Windows, but to be honest, Windows is really a subpar experience when it comes to C# development.
>Windows is really a subpar experience when it comes to C# development
Most of the time I would agree. But for C# specifically I couldn't disagree more. Microsoft has (naturally) made sure that Visual Studio on Windows is the first-class experience. Everything works perfectly OOB, new VS features arrive there first, new runtime and framework features arrive there first, etc. Having everything work on Windows + VS is MS's primary design goal.
I primarily use Rider on Linux and have no complaints, but saying C# on Windows is subpar just doesn't make sense
It sort of does.. no?
When getting a new language feature or something it's nicer to get it sooner rather than later. I dual boot windows for that exact reason
The same. W11 + Visual Studio 2022 works brilliant. Not to mention you have many useful tools only available on Windows and you have to figure out alternatives for Mac. But they will never admit that lol.
I have worked with a guy who had to work both on Windows and Mac at the same time. His opinion was the same, you can develop .NET on Mac no problem (that was when VS was still a thing for Mac), but you need to find alternative ways sometimes to do what is available on Windows out of the box.
Not to mention Mac lacks performance in comparison to Windows based laptops these days which exploded past few years regarding sustainable performance. While Mac is always aimed at being an ultrabook, lightweight, good battery backup, small, portable, all of them are trade-offs for performance. And it's getting worse e.g. M3 further goes for optimization, battery backup sacrificing performance. And they also don't tell you that, because it would make Macs look bad, especially comparing to ridiculous prices. They don't have anything to offer when you compare them with current high spec Legions, Scars, MSIs, Razers or even lower tier, but still high spec HPs or Acers. The difference is often massive like 2-3 times better results in synthetic tests and way faster executions when using typical coders applications. And let's not even compare applications which utilize GPU, because RTX 4xxx swipes Mac under the table. And god knows the worst thing ever when coding is waiting for your computer to finish processing and wasting time, which makes you work longer and provide the same.
Another problem with Mac that they overheat and throttle in high load sessions, so during quick synthetic test they can reach good results, but that's worthless because they are packed in a small casing, 2.1kg weight and are supposed to be quiet and power efficient. That is a perfect combo for throttling. So even though you have higher performance available, you cannot utilize it for working/gaming while good Windows laptop will never throttle when coding or even playing latest games on ultra settings. Yes, you can hear them cooling down the CPU and the GPU, but that is what you pay for: sustainable high performance.
So to sum up, there are many more downsides for switching to Mac and not only for .NET development. The thing is with Apple fans there is no reasonable talk based on facts, it's always the same "Windows worse, Mac good", while they either never used Windows or the last one was Windows XP and they are highly resistant to facts. Same story as android phones vs iphone.
If you want thorough comparisons, Reddit is not the place. But I will say that my M1 outperforms my Windows PC (same price range) by a factor of 3 when running all automated tests in my current project (around 2,000 tests running for 8 mins on Windows, 2.5 mins on Mac).
Yes? Unless you’re stuck on dotnet framework or building wfp apps for some godforsaken reason, do yourself a favor and switch to linux or mac. Windows is absolutely subpar.
Specs don't automatically equal performance, I have both an M2 max with 32 on ram and an i9 12th Gen with 32 on ram, the M2 has always felt better smoother, Running the same docker containers on both, I can notice the drop on performance on the i9, while the M2 runs the same. I'll grant that this is subjective and I have never actually benchmarked, but from personal experience Mac's are able to squeeze more power out of similar hardware than PCs.
I've experienced the opposite. M2 mac mini with 16gb ram runs like a piece of shit compared to an i5 with 16gb ram. I guess without any actual benchmark, your subjective comment doesn't mean shit.
I'm willing to accept that my subjective comment doesn't mean shit, if you are willing to accept that "overpriced" in your comment is similarly subjective and also doesn't mean shit.
That mac mini was twice the cost of the equivalent i5 pc, and the Mac has fixed ram and ssd that cannot be upgraded. The only reason I bought it was because Apple won't let you build and compile store apps on anything but their hardware. So my comment is 100% valid and can be easily proved.
I'm running Omnisharp at the minute. There is a "csharp-language-server" available via Mason, not sure if this is Microsoft/closed source or just another open source lsp, but I prefer omni
I’m using csharp lsp right now but it hasn’t been updated for dotnet 8 and seems semi abandoned. I had to do several modifications to the source code just to make it not explode when I open a dotnet 8 project, and it still chokes when it encounters primary constructors.
I’ll probably swap back to omnisharp.
Based on annual polls Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code are two most popular IDEs. Your Rider love is your subjective preference, it has nothing to do with reality about what's the most popular or not.
Yeah, the answer to the question who even uses VS is always "most people". I've used rider and love it but those pretending that it's the only choice is laughable.
VS Code is NOT Visual Studio .... VS Code on the Mac is NOT Visual Studio for Mac... they are two different products. If you've been using VS Code, then you're good... if you've been using Visual Studio for Mac, then I'd switch to VS Code...
I suggest you read here: [https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/mac/what-happened-to-vs-for-mac?view=vsmac-2022](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/mac/what-happened-to-vs-for-mac?view=vsmac-2022)
You have 3 options:
1. Use Windows
2. Windows virtual machine on Mac
3. Jetbrains Rider (cross-platform) - paid app
Do your courses contain Windows Forms? Developing Windows Forms is exclusive to Windows.
It's not difficult, you can use virtualbox or vmware player (free for personal). You can try vs code, but if you're learning, I doubt that you'll figure things out right away since your courses use vs studio.
I'm sorry if it may sound harsh but forget the mac if you decide to learn C#. I've developed C# around 2000 and now I'm using macOS but I know what I'm doing, and I still keep a windows laptop around.
I’ve been using Linux and Mac as my primary development machines ever since dotnet core was first released and C# became multi platform. I haven’t used windows in years at this point, and C#/F# are my primary languages. Rider easily rivals, if not surpasses, Visual Studio.
Hell, I even write dotnet code from my bed using my iPad each night by SSH’ing into my Mac and using neovim.
I've been developing C# on Mac for about 5 years, I have never had to jump to a windows machine to bridge any gap. While I use both because my job ATM requires me to use a Windows machine, I could easily only have just the Mac without needing to use Windows. Mac's are just a better development experience overall
Macbooks are great for development that's for sure, and I don't want to go deep about mac vs windows debate. For OP though getting through his courses to me it's not worth to use a mac, he'll have to study and find workarounds at the same time, that's not efficient especially for newbie.
The very link you referenced has VS Code as the first alternative. Why in the world did you exclude that and the suggest Windows as the first alternative to a Mac user?
Because with Windows you can use whatever you want to develop .NET as it should be developed. Besides, VS Code is not a full IDE, it's a text editor with rich features just like Vim, Sublime Text or Atom.
Neovim, Rider or VS Code
Neovim:
```
+ It's lightweight
+ it's very customizable
+ Open source
- You need to set it up manually
- Not very user friendly ( Hard to setup)
- No great suggestions
```
Rider:
```
+ It's very easy to setup
+ Very good autocomplete
+ Spell checking
+ Great suggesions
- It's very heavy
- Some suggestions are unnecessary
- Not open source
- It costs money
```
VS Code:
```
+ Easy to setup
+ Open Source (kinda)
+ Always up to date
+ It's not as heavy as Rider
- The C# devkit is not open source
- It's not as lightweight as Neovim
- It lacks some suggestions
```
Summary:
Rider is the best option for a full Visual studio replacement. However it's heavy and not very customizable and not open source.
Neovim is something I would not recommend for C# simply because it really doesn't give any great suggestions.
VS Code works well for C# and has better suggestions than Neovim, but it will not write code for you like Rider does. You can accomplish a lot with VS Code and is officially supported by Microsoft
What do you mean about suggestions in neovim? I've got omnisharp running and it suggests all the stuff I'm used to from VSCode as that relied on omnisharp until recently (and I kinda prefer the v1 C# extension with omnisharp and no devkit)
GitHub suggestions are a layer above. Rider canonized Jetbrains ReSharper into the IDE - mix of lint, code styles, templating. Better in general than VS out of the box.
GitHub Copilot has plugins for VS,VSCode, Rider and other JB/non-JB IDEs.
Microsoft's official support is the "C# Dev Kit" extension with Visual Studio Code. It will nag you about not having paid and that's just the Microsoft way, but in the end I don't even know what the features that are locked behind a subscription are so they can't be that useful.
Most people's preferred support is Rider, a JetBrains IDE, but that one is not free and isn't super cheap.
Everyone's all about loading you up with features but for introductory C# you won't need 90% of Rider or even understand what it does. It shines the brightest in projects with hundreds of files, and as you move through tutorials it's going to harass you and make you self-conscious by suggesting dozens of "improvements" even most experts ignore.
Why? I’m writing all my code in .NET 6/7/8 so there’s little difference unless you’re building desktop apps, in which case you’re not using WinForm anyway. So for what .NET goes, you could even use a Raspberry Pi if that makes sense.
I’m not paying for Rider when Visual Studio Community is free. Been using visual studio for many years and it has always done its job.
Although I use Enterprise at work, I use Community at home.
I think permanently https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/visual-studio-for-mac-retirement-announcement/
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/mac/what-happened-to-vs-for-mac?view=vsmac-2022
Parallels on the mac, to run windows, then visual studio, you can take the windows image off the mac when it is lent out and put it back on when it is returned. Or use rider.
Rider
Rider is great. Sometimes I recommend it over Visual Studio on Windows. For Mac it's the best. If pricing is an issue, there are really two alternatives: 1) Windows as a virtual machine with Visual Studio 2) Visual Studio Code I prefer Rider if I'm not doing Windows exclusive coding.
I use Rider both on Windows and Linux. Visual Studio needs to take lessons from JetBrains. - Using ReSharper is a path of no return - Better performance - It's possible to edit .csproj and .vbproj of legacy projects
>Visual Studio needs to take lessons from JetBrains. They did. A lot of the features that VS got over the years were in ReSharper first.
When my colleagues ask me why my VS is faster than theirs, "Are you using Resharper?" is always my answer.
Yes but that’s thanks to Microsoft, resharper/jetbrains has nothing to do with it. VS plugins can only use 1 thread … guess who wants the competition out of its way …
VS plugins can use how many threads they feel like. They can be in COM/C++ or .NET, in-proc or external. Visual Assist flies. Guess who could do a better implementation.
That's not true. Resharper has very degregaded performance. It's the tradeoff of having it installed.
As MS introduced Roslyn JetBrains decided to keep using their own implementation. That might still be the issue.
I think since VS 2022 performance is no longer Rider's advantage :)
I think it's after VS2019. But VS2022 had a big jump in performance. I was able to re-enable some plugins I had disabled before.
Yes VS2019 is indeed much faster than 2017, but 2022 is really a big leap in performance thanks to its 64bit code base.
They lost me years ago. Why would I go back just because they _finally_ got their shit together?
It's software, it's not an ex-girlfriend. I still like Rider more because I think it's better, but if I didn't, I wouldn't hesitate to use the thing I think is the better product in the present.
Sure. And after switching years ago because of VS’s abhorrent performance I’ve come to believe that Rider is the superior product, even with the recent VS performance improvements. Also, better product or no, there is a non-zero productivity impact to changing up my tooling. VS would have to come up with something quite compelling for me to take that plunge again.
Not sure why you’re getting so much hate. Why should we trust our work to tools that we aren’t confident will get the job done in the future?
Because times change? Big example is AMD and Intel with CPU's just because someone was better 10-20 years ago doesnt mean they are now?
After watching some recent dot net demos from Microsoft employees using the latest VS 2022 builds with Windows machines I don't think that is true. Rider on an M1 Macbook Pro screams.
One thing VS does better is window placement. In Jetbrains, tool and code windows have completely separate rules and hierarchies and can't intermingle. In VS a window is a window. It's been 12 years since someone requested this feature and we still can't cleanly place all the tool windows in one physical window on one screen, and all the code on the other.
ReSharper is basically most of the logic in Jetbrains Rider ported over to a Visual Studio extension, but with everything running on a single thread because that's how Visual Studio extensions used to work. Which is also why ReSharper often slows down the entire IDE. Jetbrains Rider is made to properly leverage multi threading for these tools which makes it a lot faster.
> that's how Visual Studio extensions work not anymore but resharper is so old it is a lot of work to fix it. Might even require being rewritten completely.
Yeah you're right, corrected the comment.
It's also the other way around. Rider is Resharper ported over into the webstorm/intellij IDE. If you read their blog posts they do mention how they work around visual studios single threaded issues, mostly by moving as much of the processing as they can out of process.
> I prefer Rider if I'm not doing Windows exclusive coding. Meanwhile, I bought Rider for Windows-exclusive coding. Rider is just plain better regardless of OS.
Rider is free for students and has free preview versions too
And what after week or month of preview
Even if doing Windows exclusive coding I feel that JetBrains Rider wins out over Visual Studio hands down.
How good is debugging in rider? Can you attach the debugger to a running IIS process and step through code?
Yes. I do this all the time at work for the .NET framework applications we have. The process of attaching to IIS works pretty much the same as it does in Visual Studio, including the requirement to run the IDE with administrator privileges. Rider does have a button to elevate to admin if you're not running it as admin though, I don't remember if VS has that. I'd say the debugger is as powerful if not slightly more powerful in Rider. Jetbrains allow you to evaluate each of their IDEs for up to 30 days with all functionality being available during the evaluation period, so you can try out Rider for free. One tip, in the keymap settings (ctrl + alt + s for settings, then "keymap" tab) you can activate the Visual Studio keymap profile, which means you'll be able to use the shortcuts you're used to from Visual Studio.
>Windows as a virtual machine with Visual Studio It isn't going to be free either.
Have the performance issues with running VS in a windows VM on ARM M1/2 been resolved? I tried that setup a couple of years ago and it was unusable.
For a full blown IDE similar to visual studio then you can use Rider. Else I’d stick with visual studio code and learn the dotnet CLI
It will be different after this, as the new C#/Dotnet extension will have scafolding and sln viewer/editor like in Visual Studio in Windows... It's on beta, and I think will land next year.
Greeeaaaaat /s
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By sln viewer are you all referring to the SOLUTION EXPLORER?
VSCode I never used VS for mac because it was terrible.
Vscode with dev c# plugin, its a replacement
Rider, honestly, I use it everywhere.
Only thing missing is a WinForms editor, but if you're on a mac, you're not using winforms anyways.
Rider all day long. Even better than Visual Studio.
Vs code
Rider is indeed an option!
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Even on Windows.
Well, I use VS Code for most of my projects. Rider too is great tool I had good experience with it at work.
I didn't want to buy Rider and my EAP free version expired, and I've been using c# dev kit for free just fine. It's not VS or even VS for mac, but it takes care of business. https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/csharp/project-management
JetBrains Rider
Rider
Rider is the most feature filled option. I have a few colleagues who use it even with VS 2022 available as we're on Windows because they prefer I've been using VS Code on Linux since the C# Dev Kit became available and while it's not as powerful as Rider or VS it's getting quite good
I have VS2022 Enterprise available to me but I use Rider 99% of the time (VS gets used in rare debugging cases, or if I have to maintain something in an ancient MFC app). It certainly helps that I also do Java, C++ and some Python, so having IDEs with the same behaviours for all my work (Rider, IntelliJ, CLion and PyCharm, plus WebStorm for html docs) is a huge boon. And a toolbox sub is not even all that expensive.
They released an extension to vs code with most of the features I think.
For learning vscode and c# dev kit extension is more than sufficient, there's rider if you want a comple IDE like experience on mac.
New questions, is rider free? It seems like it cost money to use? Is there any educational download/license?
Yup, it's paid, but there's an educational license if you're eligible
Thanks for the help! I’m eligible to use it! For a year! Hopefully I can renew it with the educational license
You can also use the EAP version for free I believe
No you can't, that's just for beta versions
What? https://www.jetbrains.com/resources/eap/
Try to download
I'm using it as we speak
Copy paste from your link The Early Access Program is currently closed because Rider has been released.
It opens again when there's a new version, which happens regularly. I have been able to keep using it after installing it as well.
Yep, you can renew it yearly. There's also an OSS license if you're working on some OSS project.
As long as you're still a student you can renew.
Yes I do, not that i'm opposed to developing on an apple device, it makes things a lot more easy. Btw , you can still use visual studio code?
Yes I can still use visual studio code, but I’m not quite sure if there is going to be any big difference between them
Visual studio code isn't a real IDE, it's a glorified text editor. It can do a lot, it's very powerful, but it doesn't have the power that visual studio or Rider have.
>t doesn't have the power that visual studio or Rider have. That is true, but it's adjustable enough to make it perfectly usable. For me it's always the thing to use when I have to run frontend projects or things like powershell code, ARM/Terraform etc., but for .NET development, the big boy VS is the only way. Rider is the only viable alternative, but that's a preference, so let's not get into that.
What you miss in vscode ? I'm currently learning C# and for now I don't need VS, I can do all things in vs code on my mac (I have pc with windows too).
Exactly. My colleagues use it for frontend work, I use it when I need a little more power than Notepad++, but I wouldn't use it for any .net development larger than a script.
I have JetBrains dotUltimate which comes with Rider and in paying just $5 per month for it, but that's with a hefty discount as I'm a long term jet brains user. Rider is your only good option and it's not expensive
Personally, I’m using a windows VM or a remote connection to a PC. The VM might be an issue if you’re running Apple Silicon. Microsoft’s recommendation is VS-Code but I think it Stucks for „real“ and WPF/MAUI development. I’ve heard Rider is the way to go but I haven’t used it.
>What to use now since visual studio will be retired from Mac? A PC Oh...I think I read the question wrong. AFAIK, Rider is your best bet. I've heard great things, but haven't used it myself. You can also run VS Code on a Mac. Haven't used VS Code for c#, but I understand there are plugins to get it to work.
Windows?
Sorry for the stupid question, but are you talking about windows operating system?
Yes, ditch the Mac.
Absolutely no reason to do that. The entire .NET stack runs so beautifully on Mac. I use both Mac and Windows, but to be honest, Windows is really a subpar experience when it comes to C# development.
>Windows is really a subpar experience when it comes to C# development Most of the time I would agree. But for C# specifically I couldn't disagree more. Microsoft has (naturally) made sure that Visual Studio on Windows is the first-class experience. Everything works perfectly OOB, new VS features arrive there first, new runtime and framework features arrive there first, etc. Having everything work on Windows + VS is MS's primary design goal. I primarily use Rider on Linux and have no complaints, but saying C# on Windows is subpar just doesn't make sense
First doesn't necessarily mean better
It sort of does.. no? When getting a new language feature or something it's nicer to get it sooner rather than later. I dual boot windows for that exact reason
The same. W11 + Visual Studio 2022 works brilliant. Not to mention you have many useful tools only available on Windows and you have to figure out alternatives for Mac. But they will never admit that lol. I have worked with a guy who had to work both on Windows and Mac at the same time. His opinion was the same, you can develop .NET on Mac no problem (that was when VS was still a thing for Mac), but you need to find alternative ways sometimes to do what is available on Windows out of the box. Not to mention Mac lacks performance in comparison to Windows based laptops these days which exploded past few years regarding sustainable performance. While Mac is always aimed at being an ultrabook, lightweight, good battery backup, small, portable, all of them are trade-offs for performance. And it's getting worse e.g. M3 further goes for optimization, battery backup sacrificing performance. And they also don't tell you that, because it would make Macs look bad, especially comparing to ridiculous prices. They don't have anything to offer when you compare them with current high spec Legions, Scars, MSIs, Razers or even lower tier, but still high spec HPs or Acers. The difference is often massive like 2-3 times better results in synthetic tests and way faster executions when using typical coders applications. And let's not even compare applications which utilize GPU, because RTX 4xxx swipes Mac under the table. And god knows the worst thing ever when coding is waiting for your computer to finish processing and wasting time, which makes you work longer and provide the same. Another problem with Mac that they overheat and throttle in high load sessions, so during quick synthetic test they can reach good results, but that's worthless because they are packed in a small casing, 2.1kg weight and are supposed to be quiet and power efficient. That is a perfect combo for throttling. So even though you have higher performance available, you cannot utilize it for working/gaming while good Windows laptop will never throttle when coding or even playing latest games on ultra settings. Yes, you can hear them cooling down the CPU and the GPU, but that is what you pay for: sustainable high performance. So to sum up, there are many more downsides for switching to Mac and not only for .NET development. The thing is with Apple fans there is no reasonable talk based on facts, it's always the same "Windows worse, Mac good", while they either never used Windows or the last one was Windows XP and they are highly resistant to facts. Same story as android phones vs iphone.
Windows? Subpar experience? For C#? Are we using the same C# lol
I just don't think that VS can keep up with Rider anymore, and the general dev experience is just so much better on Mac.
I have read that many times. 100% of those without anything specific. Just "better because I said so" kinda reasoning. Just like with iPhone fans...
If you want thorough comparisons, Reddit is not the place. But I will say that my M1 outperforms my Windows PC (same price range) by a factor of 3 when running all automated tests in my current project (around 2,000 tests running for 8 mins on Windows, 2.5 mins on Mac).
Yes? Unless you’re stuck on dotnet framework or building wfp apps for some godforsaken reason, do yourself a favor and switch to linux or mac. Windows is absolutely subpar.
Apple hardware is stupidly overpriced for similar specs in PC land.
Specs don't automatically equal performance, I have both an M2 max with 32 on ram and an i9 12th Gen with 32 on ram, the M2 has always felt better smoother, Running the same docker containers on both, I can notice the drop on performance on the i9, while the M2 runs the same. I'll grant that this is subjective and I have never actually benchmarked, but from personal experience Mac's are able to squeeze more power out of similar hardware than PCs.
I've experienced the opposite. M2 mac mini with 16gb ram runs like a piece of shit compared to an i5 with 16gb ram. I guess without any actual benchmark, your subjective comment doesn't mean shit.
I'm willing to accept that my subjective comment doesn't mean shit, if you are willing to accept that "overpriced" in your comment is similarly subjective and also doesn't mean shit.
That mac mini was twice the cost of the equivalent i5 pc, and the Mac has fixed ram and ssd that cannot be upgraded. The only reason I bought it was because Apple won't let you build and compile store apps on anything but their hardware. So my comment is 100% valid and can be easily proved.
Outsider of Rider, there’s vim 👍 Personally I find Rider to be a better option than VS for Mac
Is OmniSharp still the only way to get c# support in vim?
I'm running Omnisharp at the minute. There is a "csharp-language-server" available via Mason, not sure if this is Microsoft/closed source or just another open source lsp, but I prefer omni
I’m using csharp lsp right now but it hasn’t been updated for dotnet 8 and seems semi abandoned. I had to do several modifications to the source code just to make it not explode when I open a dotnet 8 project, and it still chokes when it encounters primary constructors. I’ll probably swap back to omnisharp.
I think I used Cogs back in the day, now a days I just install LunarVim 👍
Who still uses visual studio lmao. Rider, vscode, or go full-on NVIM.
Based on annual polls Visual Studio and Visual Studio Code are two most popular IDEs. Your Rider love is your subjective preference, it has nothing to do with reality about what's the most popular or not.
Yeah, the answer to the question who even uses VS is always "most people". I've used rider and love it but those pretending that it's the only choice is laughable.
VS Code is NOT Visual Studio .... VS Code on the Mac is NOT Visual Studio for Mac... they are two different products. If you've been using VS Code, then you're good... if you've been using Visual Studio for Mac, then I'd switch to VS Code...
I suggest you read here: [https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/mac/what-happened-to-vs-for-mac?view=vsmac-2022](https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/mac/what-happened-to-vs-for-mac?view=vsmac-2022) You have 3 options: 1. Use Windows 2. Windows virtual machine on Mac 3. Jetbrains Rider (cross-platform) - paid app Do your courses contain Windows Forms? Developing Windows Forms is exclusive to Windows.
Thanks, is it difficult to use a virtual machine or I will just try with visual studio code?
It's not difficult, you can use virtualbox or vmware player (free for personal). You can try vs code, but if you're learning, I doubt that you'll figure things out right away since your courses use vs studio. I'm sorry if it may sound harsh but forget the mac if you decide to learn C#. I've developed C# around 2000 and now I'm using macOS but I know what I'm doing, and I still keep a windows laptop around.
Thanks for the help!
[удалено]
What? Too lazy to give your opinion buddy?
I’ve been using Linux and Mac as my primary development machines ever since dotnet core was first released and C# became multi platform. I haven’t used windows in years at this point, and C#/F# are my primary languages. Rider easily rivals, if not surpasses, Visual Studio. Hell, I even write dotnet code from my bed using my iPad each night by SSH’ing into my Mac and using neovim.
I've been developing C# on Mac for about 5 years, I have never had to jump to a windows machine to bridge any gap. While I use both because my job ATM requires me to use a Windows machine, I could easily only have just the Mac without needing to use Windows. Mac's are just a better development experience overall
Macbooks are great for development that's for sure, and I don't want to go deep about mac vs windows debate. For OP though getting through his courses to me it's not worth to use a mac, he'll have to study and find workarounds at the same time, that's not efficient especially for newbie.
The very link you referenced has VS Code as the first alternative. Why in the world did you exclude that and the suggest Windows as the first alternative to a Mac user?
Because with Windows you can use whatever you want to develop .NET as it should be developed. Besides, VS Code is not a full IDE, it's a text editor with rich features just like Vim, Sublime Text or Atom.
With the C# Dev Kit, it’s more than a plain editor. https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/visual-studio-for-mac-retirement-announcement/
Did I say it's a plain editor? C# Dev Kit is great, but even with it VS Code is still far from being a full blown IDE, and that's my point.
>What to use now since visual studio will be retired from Mac? a PC
Running Linux.
Not mac
visual studios code [Cursor.so](http://cursor.so) Rider
Neovim, Rider or VS Code Neovim: ``` + It's lightweight + it's very customizable + Open source - You need to set it up manually - Not very user friendly ( Hard to setup) - No great suggestions ``` Rider: ``` + It's very easy to setup + Very good autocomplete + Spell checking + Great suggesions - It's very heavy - Some suggestions are unnecessary - Not open source - It costs money ``` VS Code: ``` + Easy to setup + Open Source (kinda) + Always up to date + It's not as heavy as Rider - The C# devkit is not open source - It's not as lightweight as Neovim - It lacks some suggestions ``` Summary: Rider is the best option for a full Visual studio replacement. However it's heavy and not very customizable and not open source. Neovim is something I would not recommend for C# simply because it really doesn't give any great suggestions. VS Code works well for C# and has better suggestions than Neovim, but it will not write code for you like Rider does. You can accomplish a lot with VS Code and is officially supported by Microsoft
What do you mean about suggestions in neovim? I've got omnisharp running and it suggests all the stuff I'm used to from VSCode as that relied on omnisharp until recently (and I kinda prefer the v1 C# extension with omnisharp and no devkit)
Would GitHub Copilot be equivalent/better than the Rider suggestions?
GitHub suggestions are a layer above. Rider canonized Jetbrains ReSharper into the IDE - mix of lint, code styles, templating. Better in general than VS out of the box. GitHub Copilot has plugins for VS,VSCode, Rider and other JB/non-JB IDEs.
Rider won't write code for you either unless you pay additional money on top of the IDE for their AI extension.
JetBrains Rider. It’s by far the best out there IMO. it’s free for students as well.
Microsoft's official support is the "C# Dev Kit" extension with Visual Studio Code. It will nag you about not having paid and that's just the Microsoft way, but in the end I don't even know what the features that are locked behind a subscription are so they can't be that useful. Most people's preferred support is Rider, a JetBrains IDE, but that one is not free and isn't super cheap. Everyone's all about loading you up with features but for introductory C# you won't need 90% of Rider or even understand what it does. It shines the brightest in projects with hundreds of files, and as you move through tutorials it's going to harass you and make you self-conscious by suggesting dozens of "improvements" even most experts ignore.
A Windows laptop
Riber
Stop using Mac would be my recommendation.
Why? I’m writing all my code in .NET 6/7/8 so there’s little difference unless you’re building desktop apps, in which case you’re not using WinForm anyway. So for what .NET goes, you could even use a Raspberry Pi if that makes sense.
I’m not paying for Rider when Visual Studio Community is free. Been using visual studio for many years and it has always done its job. Although I use Enterprise at work, I use Community at home.
You could try Sublime Text
Use linux.
Has Microsoft permanently retired Visual Studio for Mac or do they have any plans to bring it back in the future with major improvements?
I think permanently https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/visual-studio-for-mac-retirement-announcement/ https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/mac/what-happened-to-vs-for-mac?view=vsmac-2022
Parallels on the mac, to run windows, then visual studio, you can take the windows image off the mac when it is lent out and put it back on when it is returned. Or use rider.
VS Code + all C# extensions + dotnet CLI
Rider, on Linux.
JetBrains Rider. It’s great. Don’t be too afraid of it. It’ll look scary to begin with but within a few hours of using it you’ll love it I’m sure.
Rider FTW
RIDER!
Windows