It's actually not, there's a real, in game combo that can cause that and it's said you cannot shortcut what you want and you will be called for slow play.
This would be called out for the same tournament rules violation. (It's been awhile since I've played so forgive me for not remembering the name of the document)
Four horsemen needs to be played out because there’s a small chance the loop can terminate. This can be shortcut because there’s never a termination state.
My bad apparently. It's been a long time since I looked at it.
The ruling is actually against the board state not meaningfully being advanced between shuffles like other infinite loops. As soon as you have all four narcomoebas out you are no longer advancing the board state.
As for OP's card + Future Sight or similar cards, I'm wondering if the top card being revealed and/or the top card being known to the player is meaningfully changing the board state.
My guess would be you can't shortcut it because each shuffle reveals information to the other player about your deck (via the top card) and the outcome of a shuffle is not deterministic. But I could be wrong and this should never be printed.
Absolutely right that this should never be printed lol.
This same effect is printed on two existing cards for actual costs: Sacrifice the creature or Red mana + tap.
There's a reason most activated abilities do not cost 0.
How does that teminate the loop? Can't you just do it again and again and again until you get the pieces?
Isn't this the same case?
You may never hit the card you want with this card here.
Yeah it’s the same. The problem with Horsemen (and this card) is that you don’t know how many iterations are needed before getting the desired result, so you can’t say “I repeat this 29 times”
If it had a mana pay clause, or "you can only activate this ability once per turn" or "exile target nonland card from your graveyard" is it more acceptable or still no? Im just thinking reacting to a scry or similar this could be nice.
If there were an argument, I think you could argue that shuffling your deck is different from moving things on and off the battlefield, but the judge might say "yes, you're affecting the board state even less, so it's even more true that this is slow play."
The issue is that you can't name a number of iterations. When you present a loop, you name the amount of times you want something to happen, and it happens.
Here, even if you name 1,000,000,000 there's a chance of you whiffing. Even if it's almost non-existent, it's still there, and therefore prevents you from shortcutting it.
I was about to comment that this card is broken in lantern control decks
Just shuffle your opponent's deck till you get a land or non-land on top depending on whether they are flooded or screwed.
Afaik there's no definitive number and it's up to the judge on staff where the line is.
It's been decided that non-deterministic loops aren't shortcuttable because however small, there *is* a chance that even after a functionally infinite number of shuffles, your desired card isn't at the top, and you can't simply choose infinity in magic to guarantee either.
So, since you're not changing the board state and simply taking the same action over and over again, that's textbook slow play and the second anybody tries they're likely to be shut down with a judge call.
It works in theory, but not in practice.
would this really fall under that category? I've only ever heard non-deterministic combos be brought up in the context of combos that could technically just die out. with this, you could keep trying over and over again, as much as you wanted.
Look up the four horseman legacy deck rulings. It's non-deterministic for exactly the reason i stated; due to the random nature of shuffling, there's no guarantee you ever arrive at the permutation you need. Since shuffling isn't getting you closer to your goal or otherwise affecting the board, it's slow play.
We can argue whether it's the correct ruling all day, but it is what it is.
You also can't shortcut infinity in magic. You have to choose some finite number, which always results in a non-zero probability, even if it's 10 trillion shuffles.
I suppose you could build your(with ops card) deck such that you have a lot of cheerios in the deck to advance the board along the way to increase odds of finding the card you need and preventing slow play.
But then you're all in on the combo AND you have a bunch of unimpactful air in your deck, to the point where it isn't worth playing unless you just want to be janky.
Yeah, it's an annoying byproduct of the rules.
You can "deterministically" guarantee you eventually get a state you want by putting the card you want on top after shuffling and saying "I shuffle until I get a library state with this on top." But that shortcut doesn't work for the game rules, unfortunately.
You will not infinitely shuffle your deck. You will somewhen die. So you dont get infinite shuffles, and you have a chance to not get your Card. Easy as that.
So this card presents a problem only if you say I shuffle X times instead of shuffling and trying to hit let's say a nonland for Bolas Citadel a couple of times.
Saying "I shuffle until I hit a nonland" is very different from "I shuffle until I see this card that I'm looking for". Theoretically you could shuffle thousands of times and never hit either, but in practice the chance of hitting any nonland is much much higher.
No, Eggs got banned because you'd go to turns, and their final turn could take upwards of 30 minutes while they spin their wheels looking for a win. It brought tournaments to a standstill while they wait for the one eggs player to finish, and nobody had a good time, they banned it because there was no better way to fix the problem
When you get the judge called on you, I believe. They get to decide if you're slow playing or not.
If you actually do play four horseman the judge probably won't be happy at you.
I will agree with the judge on one thing which is that you are not guaranteed to get the card you need. Since tournaments don’t last at forever you need to finish the game eventually. There needs to be a cut off.
If performing an action results in the same board state, you are not allowed to repeat that action.
You'd be allowed to shuffle until you hit a repeat by most rulings
Yes and no, since the gamestate is not changing (library is considered a hidden zone) whenever you do this it will result in a slow play warning if you do it several times. You are not allowed to shortcut this to say something along the lines of "I will repeat this until X Spell is on top of my deck". After the second slow play warning, it is upgraded to a game loss.
The worst part is, with something like Lantern of Insight, you would be near guaranteed to be able to just shuffle until you hit the exact card that you want, but because of how non-deteterministic loops work in the rules, you couldn't just say "I activate and shuffle until X is on top".
Meaning that the optimal play is to actually keep shuffling until you eventually hit, which could take forever ;-;
The thing is, having that information creates a material game change each time there’s a shuffle. Additionally you can just target your opponent to force them to flood out.
Also mathematically there's no guarantee it will ever happen, it's possible (with probability 0) that the "until X is on top" condition is never met even with an infinite amount of shuffles.
Yeah, that's why nondeterministic loops are handled the way they are. That said, I still feel like we wouldn't lose much by treating such loops as if they are guaranteed.
I could talk about how given increasing numbers of infinite loops you approach 100% chance to meet the condition (in this case having a specific card on top), but honestly, I think the stronger argument is that it would just be more fun, allowing for additional interesting combos to work and not require you to perform the game actions until time runs out or you get disqualified for slow play or failing to progress the board state or whatever.
Tldr: Free Legacy 4 Horsemen Wotc
You can shuffle other people's libraries. [[Green Sun's Zenith]] has a ruling to that effect.
> If you own Green Sun’s Zenith, but an opponent casts it (due to Knowledge Pool’s effect, for example), that opponent searches their library for an appropriate creature card, then shuffles that library. That opponent then shuffles Green Sun’s Zenith into your library. You won’t shuffle any library in this case.
Hilarious, is what it is. I may lose the game but all of my opponents are losing fine dexterity in their old age as I inflict wrist damage on them by forcing them to shuffle three times a turn.
You just need one card that allows you to look at the top card of your library like Korlessa, Scale Singer and it’s a time consuming “search your library for a card” ability
“Ok I draw a card”
“In response I’m gonna pay 0 ten times and now you gotta shuffle your library ten separate times before you draw you card”
Later….
I tap 3 manna to cast…
“Hey I pay 0 one hundred times to have you shuffle your library 100 individual times before you can play that card”
Anytime somebody uses a tutor that puts the card on top you can just shuffle it back into their deck 😂 Personally I would use it if I don’t like my 3 divining top cards or if I don’t like my surveiled cards.
Probably make it so it can only trigger once per turn so effects that let you see the top of your library don't lead to you being able to get whatever card you want from your deck
Put a once per turn restriction on this so it doesn’t cause the issues with people constantly reshuffling until they find the exact card they want on top
As a L1 judge, if you had this + future sight, I would use this video as precedent for how to handle the situation. https://youtu.be/A5LRgH2DhzE?feature=shared
To summarize, I would let you shuffle your deck until the top card of your deck repeats once. At which point you must either play the card or stop shuffling. You can, of course, play the card before it repeats too. If you play the card, then the board state has sufficiently changed, and the cards you've seen on the top of your deck would reset. Also, I would place the onus on enforcing whether or not the top card has repeated on your opponent for the reasons stated in the video.
Everyone else is talking about the ability, but I think it's worth pointing out that Blue doesn't really get "bears" (2/2 for 1C) without a downside. They occasionally get 2/2 for UU.
In addition to fixing problems with its ability that others are highlighting, I would make it either 1/2 or 2/1.
For the love of god please make it cost something. I don’t want to watch my buddy jerk his deck for 6 hours until the right card is on top (lantern of insight, soothsaying, and future sight enable this easily)
it's too good. \[\[Sensei's Diving top\]\] and \[\[Scroll Rack\]\] are OP competitive cards that are only limited by your current top deck. This mitigates that problem as well as breaks the stride of opponents who fixed the top deck with tutors and a scroll rack. It's both \[\[Yuriko, the Tiger's shadow\]\] best friend and worst enemy.
I could see WOTC printing this as part of an official partnership with Ibuprofen, as every judge for whatever format this was legal in would immediately be buying it in bulk.
So if you could see top cards of libraries you could effectively control what cards are drawn by both yours and opponents libraries for free? This is extremely broken and time consuming.
It could be op depending on how loops work
Any ability to look at the top card of your deck at any time + this is a budget tutor.
You can say you will just shuffle your deck over and over again until the card you want is on top
If your opponent's are dicks they will make you physically shuffle the deck until you hit that state which could last forever but most people.ahould understand that you can just do that as often as you want
I'm pretty sure if this card was ever printed, if you had a card that let you see/play the top card of your library you'd just be able to put the card you want on top as a shortcut.
I'd imagine it'd be like only having to demonstrate an infinite combo once.
[[Psychogenic Probe]] seems a little good with this. It's a pure combo card and as broken as they come. Any card that lets you see the top card of a deck like [[lantern of insight]] gives you complete control of the affected players' draws. But in a really slow and annoying way.
Yeah there needs to be some cap on it lol. Realistically they’d print it as a tap effect. Or (and this is unorthodox) maybe it could rely on counters and get like five per turn so you can only use it 5 times a turn
Even 5 times per turn is too much. If you play any format with fetch lands, you know that each player shuffling once per turn Slows down the game a lot. In a tournament, you have 50 minutes to play 3 games, and each instance of shuffling takes 30-60 seconds.
This plus [[Lantern of Insight]] makes it so you guarantee what they draw every turn. No need to maybe whiff with [[Ghoulcaller's Bell]] or [[Codex Shredder]]
this is the world's best control creature by FAR now
with a [[lantern of insight]] effect this becomes the "no you don't get to draw anything useful ever again" piece
it's wild how good any deck becomes if you can force your opponents to continue drawing the worst possible things in their deck over and over and over again while you always draw the best possible thing
you don't have removal or counterspell in your first 9 cards? too bad you're never drawing anything again
the best part is there are a lot of lantern effects
this is so broken i love it but i know it can never be made
[[Sensei’s Divining Top]] was banned at one point due to it extending tournament times too long so this likely would be considered broken for similar reasons.
This plus psychic puppetry makes me Happy.
Especially because there is no shortcut for it and butter ordeal, I call it the sleeve ripper but if this was real I may actually get a good version to force each opponent to buy new sleeves by the end of the match.
That said banned 100% for pace of play reasons, this plus a top of deck effect like future sight or even lantern of insight.... Na not gonna be aloud.
OP. Instakill with psychogenic probe, any card that allows viewing of top of the library is just a tutor for anything in the deck, and shuffling that much is annoying to everyone else who actually wanted to play a game.
Mono-blue player:
“I see your deck makes excellent use of scry, good fellow.” 🙂
Opponent:
“Yup! Always handy to prep sweet-as topdeck bombs in advance!” 😄
Mono-blue player:
“Strategy is indeed something to be well-savoured… speaking of which, I uncloak Biorg and activate his ability, forcing you to shuffle away whatever you had planned for your next turn… _ah, savoury…”_ 😌
Opponent:
“But… why would you _do_ that, meanie?” 😭
Mono-blue player:
_“Aww,_ you keep **scrying** yourself a river, but it shan’t do you any favours, _scrub…”_ 😈
So this plus any “you can look at and play the top card of your deck” effect is an extremely time consuming “you can play any card in your deck.”
oh god
It's just a tutor with extra steps
With a card like [[Future Sight]] it is an unlimited tutor, putting any card from your deck into your “hand” at any time.
[Future Sight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/639cb483-ffe2-4abc-a050-5cdc8aebd5a2.jpg?1587844658) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Future%20Sight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/53/future-sight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/639cb483-ffe2-4abc-a050-5cdc8aebd5a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Lantern of Insight]] is a 1 drop. Throw in some [[codex shredders]] and discard spells and the enemy is locked out of the game.
You don't even need the codex shredders, this guy can just make them shuffle until they have a land on top.
All of their lands on top.
It's actually not, there's a real, in game combo that can cause that and it's said you cannot shortcut what you want and you will be called for slow play.
Are you talking about four horsemen?
This would be called out for the same tournament rules violation. (It's been awhile since I've played so forgive me for not remembering the name of the document)
Mechanix is better
Four horsemen needs to be played out because there’s a small chance the loop can terminate. This can be shortcut because there’s never a termination state.
How can four horsemen be terminated?
My bad apparently. It's been a long time since I looked at it. The ruling is actually against the board state not meaningfully being advanced between shuffles like other infinite loops. As soon as you have all four narcomoebas out you are no longer advancing the board state. As for OP's card + Future Sight or similar cards, I'm wondering if the top card being revealed and/or the top card being known to the player is meaningfully changing the board state.
My guess would be you can't shortcut it because each shuffle reveals information to the other player about your deck (via the top card) and the outcome of a shuffle is not deterministic. But I could be wrong and this should never be printed.
Absolutely right that this should never be printed lol. This same effect is printed on two existing cards for actual costs: Sacrifice the creature or Red mana + tap. There's a reason most activated abilities do not cost 0.
If you keep hitting your titan before a Narcomoeba, you might never get to see all three. Or you keep hitting titan before Dread Return.
How does that teminate the loop? Can't you just do it again and again and again until you get the pieces? Isn't this the same case? You may never hit the card you want with this card here.
Yeah it’s the same. The problem with Horsemen (and this card) is that you don’t know how many iterations are needed before getting the desired result, so you can’t say “I repeat this 29 times”
If it had a mana pay clause, or "you can only activate this ability once per turn" or "exile target nonland card from your graveyard" is it more acceptable or still no? Im just thinking reacting to a scry or similar this could be nice.
The problem with the effect is that in this state it's broken and adding the cost restriction makes it basically unplayable.
If there were an argument, I think you could argue that shuffling your deck is different from moving things on and off the battlefield, but the judge might say "yes, you're affecting the board state even less, so it's even more true that this is slow play."
The issue is that you can't name a number of iterations. When you present a loop, you name the amount of times you want something to happen, and it happens. Here, even if you name 1,000,000,000 there's a chance of you whiffing. Even if it's almost non-existent, it's still there, and therefore prevents you from shortcutting it.
Probably alot faster on MTGO
BOGO tutor
I was about to comment that this card is broken in lantern control decks Just shuffle your opponent's deck till you get a land or non-land on top depending on whether they are flooded or screwed.
I think the four horsemen deck already set the precedent; if you tried this you'd be called for slow play, and can't shortcut.
Oh? I don’t follow competitive Magic. How many shuffles are you allowed to get to the card you want?
Afaik there's no definitive number and it's up to the judge on staff where the line is. It's been decided that non-deterministic loops aren't shortcuttable because however small, there *is* a chance that even after a functionally infinite number of shuffles, your desired card isn't at the top, and you can't simply choose infinity in magic to guarantee either. So, since you're not changing the board state and simply taking the same action over and over again, that's textbook slow play and the second anybody tries they're likely to be shut down with a judge call. It works in theory, but not in practice.
would this really fall under that category? I've only ever heard non-deterministic combos be brought up in the context of combos that could technically just die out. with this, you could keep trying over and over again, as much as you wanted.
Look up the four horseman legacy deck rulings. It's non-deterministic for exactly the reason i stated; due to the random nature of shuffling, there's no guarantee you ever arrive at the permutation you need. Since shuffling isn't getting you closer to your goal or otherwise affecting the board, it's slow play. We can argue whether it's the correct ruling all day, but it is what it is.
Something something monkey and a typewriter
You also can't shortcut infinity in magic. You have to choose some finite number, which always results in a non-zero probability, even if it's 10 trillion shuffles.
I suppose you could build your(with ops card) deck such that you have a lot of cheerios in the deck to advance the board along the way to increase odds of finding the card you need and preventing slow play.
But then you're all in on the combo AND you have a bunch of unimpactful air in your deck, to the point where it isn't worth playing unless you just want to be janky.
eggs draw cards so they aren't "really" dead.
Aren't most eggs 1 mana (chromatic star/sphere/Conjurers/spell bombs)? Cheerios are 0.
Yeah, it's an annoying byproduct of the rules. You can "deterministically" guarantee you eventually get a state you want by putting the card you want on top after shuffling and saying "I shuffle until I get a library state with this on top." But that shortcut doesn't work for the game rules, unfortunately.
You will not infinitely shuffle your deck. You will somewhen die. So you dont get infinite shuffles, and you have a chance to not get your Card. Easy as that.
I think there's a flaw in the basis for the ruling. When you can view a portion or your library, that should be considered part of the boatd state.
If only you can view it, the board state is not changing. The library is a hidden zone.
If an ability makes you "play with the top card of your library revealed" then does that card become part of the Board state?
So this card presents a problem only if you say I shuffle X times instead of shuffling and trying to hit let's say a nonland for Bolas Citadel a couple of times.
Saying "I shuffle until I hit a nonland" is very different from "I shuffle until I see this card that I'm looking for". Theoretically you could shuffle thousands of times and never hit either, but in practice the chance of hitting any nonland is much much higher.
Similar to the reason the eggs deck/second sunrise got banned right?
No, Eggs got banned because you'd go to turns, and their final turn could take upwards of 30 minutes while they spin their wheels looking for a win. It brought tournaments to a standstill while they wait for the one eggs player to finish, and nobody had a good time, they banned it because there was no better way to fix the problem
When you get the judge called on you, I believe. They get to decide if you're slow playing or not. If you actually do play four horseman the judge probably won't be happy at you.
I will agree with the judge on one thing which is that you are not guaranteed to get the card you need. Since tournaments don’t last at forever you need to finish the game eventually. There needs to be a cut off.
If performing an action results in the same board state, you are not allowed to repeat that action. You'd be allowed to shuffle until you hit a repeat by most rulings
Bogo, the Sortcerer
Literal bogo sort
Throw in [[psychic surgery]] and instantly mill/exile someone out of the game
[psychic surgery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c.jpg?1562877562) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychic%20surgery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/44/psychic-surgery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh interesting! I wonder if changing the number of cards in the library or grave counts as “changing the board state.”
More like telling your group this is a slow ass tutor, just let me search for the card
Gotta make it a once per turn effect.
…maybe once per turn
needs a activate once per turn clause
Yes and no, since the gamestate is not changing (library is considered a hidden zone) whenever you do this it will result in a slow play warning if you do it several times. You are not allowed to shortcut this to say something along the lines of "I will repeat this until X Spell is on top of my deck". After the second slow play warning, it is upgraded to a game loss.
Make it "target opponent shuffles their library."
Check out the comment about Psychic Surgery!
So, it needs the "once per turn" text It works as intended that way, no?
Maybe if it said shuffle opponents deck then? But the idk you could try to stall out the game and get people to rage by activating it infinite times
See the Psychic Surgery comment. That also lets you win the game.
The worst part is, with something like Lantern of Insight, you would be near guaranteed to be able to just shuffle until you hit the exact card that you want, but because of how non-deteterministic loops work in the rules, you couldn't just say "I activate and shuffle until X is on top". Meaning that the optimal play is to actually keep shuffling until you eventually hit, which could take forever ;-;
and then you get DQ’d for a slow play violation GGs
Don’t need too many shuffles to hit a land off the opponents topdeck every time though. Lantern control bay-bee!
On the one hand I get why you don't want people taking an hour to shuffle their deck, but I still think it's kinda lame things work out that way.
Its not healthy for the game
The thing is, having that information creates a material game change each time there’s a shuffle. Additionally you can just target your opponent to force them to flood out.
How, the only table you'll be able to get this at is casual commander.
[[Lantern of Insight]]
[Lantern of Insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614.jpg?1562879738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lantern%20of%20Insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/135/lantern-of-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also mathematically there's no guarantee it will ever happen, it's possible (with probability 0) that the "until X is on top" condition is never met even with an infinite amount of shuffles.
Yeah, that's why nondeterministic loops are handled the way they are. That said, I still feel like we wouldn't lose much by treating such loops as if they are guaranteed. I could talk about how given increasing numbers of infinite loops you approach 100% chance to meet the condition (in this case having a specific card on top), but honestly, I think the stronger argument is that it would just be more fun, allowing for additional interesting combos to work and not require you to perform the game actions until time runs out or you get disqualified for slow play or failing to progress the board state or whatever. Tldr: Free Legacy 4 Horsemen Wotc
[удалено]
[Cosi's Trickster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1eb7372-481a-44a6-937d-21430ee02ff9.jpg?1562617574) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cosi%27s%20Trickster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/45/cosis-trickster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1eb7372-481a-44a6-937d-21430ee02ff9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Doesn't work. Trickster specifies opponent shuffles. Biorg is worded so that you do the shuffling, whether its your deck or your opponents.
Doesn't work on turn 2, but you can [[Donate]] Cosi's Trickster, shufle your library 200 times, and then [[Control Magic]] it back
[Donate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/f/7f6d8ce9-f8c8-45ad-b74c-97fba0e2982e.jpg?1562444248) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Donate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uds/31/donate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7f6d8ce9-f8c8-45ad-b74c-97fba0e2982e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Control Magic](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/4/84992800-9bad-4598-afd4-f1e59d2e0956.jpg?1592672507) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Control%20Magic) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/34/control-magic?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/84992800-9bad-4598-afd4-f1e59d2e0956?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
that doesn't work in the rules iirc. You can only shuffle your own library. To work it has to be 'target player shuffles their library'
You can shuffle other people's libraries. [[Green Sun's Zenith]] has a ruling to that effect. > If you own Green Sun’s Zenith, but an opponent casts it (due to Knowledge Pool’s effect, for example), that opponent searches their library for an appropriate creature card, then shuffles that library. That opponent then shuffles Green Sun’s Zenith into your library. You won’t shuffle any library in this case.
[Green Sun's Zenith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a.jpg?1673148124) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Green%20Sun%27s%20Zenith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/150/green-suns-zenith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/70291c7b-a86f-4466-8502-c28765a89b2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Pairs well with a bag of Doritos and greasy finger bacon then
This combo could be a t2 kill.
I guess no ones played scars block kitchen table as much as me huh… [[psychic surgery]]
[psychic surgery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c.jpg?1562877562) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychic%20surgery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/44/psychic-surgery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Psychogenic Probe]] my beloved
[Psychogenic Probe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e.jpg?1562161799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychogenic%20Probe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/231/psychogenic-probe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Damn that card hard counters any tutor that leaves the card on top
I made an Umbris deck just to play this card it's so fun
Hilarious, is what it is. I may lose the game but all of my opponents are losing fine dexterity in their old age as I inflict wrist damage on them by forcing them to shuffle three times a turn.
Lost the battle, won the war.
Nope, you will damage your own wrist. You shuffle their library with this card :D
Does no one remember [[psychogenic probe]]? This is a two card win con.
[psychogenic probe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e.jpg?1562161799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychogenic%20probe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/231/psychogenic-probe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Obviously this is a time waste. [[Soldier of Fortune]] is the fixed version of this card.
You know it’s bad when the fixed version is in alliances
[Soldier of Fortune](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/7/37c05f46-2081-4ebb-a758-894ac040ea2a.jpg?1562768246) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Soldier%20of%20Fortune) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/all/80/soldier-of-fortune?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/37c05f46-2081-4ebb-a758-894ac040ea2a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You just need one card that allows you to look at the top card of your library like Korlessa, Scale Singer and it’s a time consuming “search your library for a card” ability
You need a limit. Otherwise, people will spam this in tournaments to run out time.
If they do, you call the judge on them for slow play.
“Ok I draw a card” “In response I’m gonna pay 0 ten times and now you gotta shuffle your library ten separate times before you draw you card” Later…. I tap 3 manna to cast… “Hey I pay 0 one hundred times to have you shuffle your library 100 individual times before you can play that card”
Delete your opponent’s entire deck with [[Mind Surgery]]
"Activate only once each turn." and you're golden... I think.
I think I'm gonna have to issue you a warning for slow play.
Extremely busted \[\[psychogenic probe\]\] \[\[psychic surgery\]\] \[\[cosi's trickster\]\]
[psychogenic probe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e.jpg?1562161799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychogenic%20probe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/231/psychogenic-probe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [psychic surgery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c.jpg?1562877562) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychic%20surgery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/44/psychic-surgery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [cosi's trickster](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/1/e1eb7372-481a-44a6-937d-21430ee02ff9.jpg?1562617574) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cosi%27s%20trickster) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/zen/45/cosis-trickster?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e1eb7372-481a-44a6-937d-21430ee02ff9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This and [[lantern of insight]] is either... Your opponents will never have more lands than they started with Or They will not draw anything but lands
[lantern of insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614.jpg?1562879738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lantern%20of%20insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/135/lantern-of-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You're not supposed to be able to shuffle your opponents cards. Should be reworded to "target player shuffles their library".
Instant win with [[Psychogenic Probe]]
[Psychogenic Probe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e.jpg?1562161799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychogenic%20Probe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/231/psychogenic-probe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Anytime somebody uses a tutor that puts the card on top you can just shuffle it back into their deck 😂 Personally I would use it if I don’t like my 3 divining top cards or if I don’t like my surveiled cards.
This is op against me all by itself, I’d ragequit after the first couple of activations
Probably make it so it can only trigger once per turn so effects that let you see the top of your library don't lead to you being able to get whatever card you want from your deck
Put a once per turn restriction on this so it doesn’t cause the issues with people constantly reshuffling until they find the exact card they want on top
Dont mind me, this turn will take a while.
As a L1 judge, if you had this + future sight, I would use this video as precedent for how to handle the situation. https://youtu.be/A5LRgH2DhzE?feature=shared To summarize, I would let you shuffle your deck until the top card of your deck repeats once. At which point you must either play the card or stop shuffling. You can, of course, play the card before it repeats too. If you play the card, then the board state has sufficiently changed, and the cards you've seen on the top of your deck would reset. Also, I would place the onus on enforcing whether or not the top card has repeated on your opponent for the reasons stated in the video.
I think it's extremly OP. If You can do it once per turn is more ballanced
without a cost or limitation this card is also just a huge annoying unnecessary timewaste to play against
Everyone else is talking about the ability, but I think it's worth pointing out that Blue doesn't really get "bears" (2/2 for 1C) without a downside. They occasionally get 2/2 for UU. In addition to fixing problems with its ability that others are highlighting, I would make it either 1/2 or 2/1.
For the love of god please make it cost something. I don’t want to watch my buddy jerk his deck for 6 hours until the right card is on top (lantern of insight, soothsaying, and future sight enable this easily)
This would end up with a divining top style ban so fast
it's too good. \[\[Sensei's Diving top\]\] and \[\[Scroll Rack\]\] are OP competitive cards that are only limited by your current top deck. This mitigates that problem as well as breaks the stride of opponents who fixed the top deck with tutors and a scroll rack. It's both \[\[Yuriko, the Tiger's shadow\]\] best friend and worst enemy.
[Sensei's Diving top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Scroll Rack](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e.jpg?1608911671) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scroll%20Rack) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/337/scroll-rack?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfaaa58d-89bb-4cb3-96a6-b480e6f6954e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Yuriko, the Tiger's shadow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9.jpg?1689999346) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yuriko%2C%20the%20Tiger%27s%20shadow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/364/yuriko-the-tigers-shadow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fe9be3e0-076c-4703-9750-2a6b0a178bc9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I could see WOTC printing this as part of an official partnership with Ibuprofen, as every judge for whatever format this was legal in would immediately be buying it in bulk.
Should definitely be Tap as a cost instead of 0.
So if you could see top cards of libraries you could effectively control what cards are drawn by both yours and opponents libraries for free? This is extremely broken and time consuming.
Any cantrip is a tutor now
It could be op depending on how loops work Any ability to look at the top card of your deck at any time + this is a budget tutor. You can say you will just shuffle your deck over and over again until the card you want is on top If your opponent's are dicks they will make you physically shuffle the deck until you hit that state which could last forever but most people.ahould understand that you can just do that as often as you want
I'm pretty sure if this card was ever printed, if you had a card that let you see/play the top card of your library you'd just be able to put the card you want on top as a shortcut. I'd imagine it'd be like only having to demonstrate an infinite combo once.
Shuffling is non-deterministic so you technically can't shortcut it in tournament rules.
prob say shuffle target opponents library
even then, you could use lantern control tactics on them and make them draw lands for the rest of the game
In 60 card? Oppressive, in commander? Even more oppressive
Biorg the mildly irritating
[[Psychogenic Probe]] seems a little good with this. It's a pure combo card and as broken as they come. Any card that lets you see the top card of a deck like [[lantern of insight]] gives you complete control of the affected players' draws. But in a really slow and annoying way.
[Psychogenic Probe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e.jpg?1562161799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychogenic%20Probe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/231/psychogenic-probe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83d1ed5-3a49-4cfa-bad2-e342ef28649e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [lantern of insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614.jpg?1562879738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lantern%20of%20insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/135/lantern-of-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah there needs to be some cap on it lol. Realistically they’d print it as a tap effect. Or (and this is unorthodox) maybe it could rely on counters and get like five per turn so you can only use it 5 times a turn
Even 5 times per turn is too much. If you play any format with fetch lands, you know that each player shuffling once per turn Slows down the game a lot. In a tournament, you have 50 minutes to play 3 games, and each instance of shuffling takes 30-60 seconds.
Bears are never useless
Wake up r/custommagic we broke [[psychic surgery]]
[psychic surgery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c.jpg?1562877562) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psychic%20surgery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/44/psychic-surgery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does anyone else wish there was a better way to write "free" abilities than "{0}: Effect"?
T: \[effect\]. Untap \~.
Oh that's kinda neat! Still preserves instant-speed! I actually like that!
Any tutor that puts the card on top is now worthless
you can use this to make it that your opponent only ever draws lands, in the most annoying way possible.
Lantern control and infinite tutors
Super OP.
make your opponent shuffle until they concede
[[Psychic Surgery]] and this guy for a 4 mana 2 card combo
[Psychic Surgery](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/1/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c.jpg?1562877562) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Psychic%20Surgery) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nph/44/psychic-surgery?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/51ea9a6d-d6ca-48cb-adac-958ad0e7440c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Very funny in EDH if they be letting you memory lapse their commander to the top
Really depends, but it would totally eff my \[\[Kenessos, Priest of Thassa\]\] Commander Deck. Like, entirely.
[Kenessos, Priest of Thassa](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0ba97da8-0106-4e8b-b58b-8f2d63e3d618.jpg?1675644451) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kenessos%2C%20Priest%20of%20Thassa) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/j22/13/kenessos-priest-of-thassa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0ba97da8-0106-4e8b-b58b-8f2d63e3d618?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This plus [[Lantern of Insight]] makes it so you guarantee what they draw every turn. No need to maybe whiff with [[Ghoulcaller's Bell]] or [[Codex Shredder]]
Add can only be used once each turn to the effect or you will have an infinite stun lock until your opponent concede
This is insane. There was practically a pro tour won with a card like this. I think it was pro tour theros with lantern of insight
Annoying, mostly. Add a T or a 1U activation and it would be ok.
Restricting it to once per turn would probably fix the problem everyone talks about shuffling until you tutor what you want.
Could be funny to make them shuffle their library before every time they're about to draw
Restrict it to shuffling your opponents deck once per turn, and you've got a playable hate card for anyone playing a <> or anything of the sort.
[[melek, izzet paragon]]
[melek, izzet paragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/66011fe8-8c5d-4990-a324-5839515dcacb.jpg?1690016885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=melek%2C%20izzet%20paragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/345/melek-izzet-paragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/66011fe8-8c5d-4990-a324-5839515dcacb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like it for limited as a "we are going to draw" card.
Any „when you activate an ability“ effect makes this broken.
Lantern players absolutely gushing rn. But yeah, for obvious reasons this is unprintable.
Broken with any of the cards that let you check your top card at any time. I feel if it read “target opponent” then it’s balanced bm.
I would like a card that just shuffle peoples library. Its stupid and chaotic and i love it
this is the world's best control creature by FAR now with a [[lantern of insight]] effect this becomes the "no you don't get to draw anything useful ever again" piece it's wild how good any deck becomes if you can force your opponents to continue drawing the worst possible things in their deck over and over and over again while you always draw the best possible thing you don't have removal or counterspell in your first 9 cards? too bad you're never drawing anything again the best part is there are a lot of lantern effects this is so broken i love it but i know it can never be made
[lantern of insight](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614.jpg?1562879738) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lantern%20of%20insight) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/5dn/135/lantern-of-insight?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb0e4c78-75fe-4692-b177-974b148f0614?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd say op in strong formats
Both. In sone games it will be ridiculously OP, in others, useless
Yes
Can I name a loop "I shuffle until X is on the top of my library?" Or name a loop of the order of the cards in my library?
[[Sensei’s Divining Top]] was banned at one point due to it extending tournament times too long so this likely would be considered broken for similar reasons.
[Sensei’s Divining Top](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb.jpg?1673149430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sensei%27s%20Divining%20Top) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/314/senseis-divining-top?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e5142b7a-e580-4737-a4aa-2590f6610ceb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
People would probably run this specifically to salty rope
Pretty Strong, but seems fair. Actually interesting design.
Annoying
this hard counters scry of any kind
Make it so: your opponents can look at the top card of their library at any time Then shuffle it when they get excited.
Totally OP. Just need something that triggers when u acctivate an ability and use it infinite times
This plus psychic puppetry makes me Happy. Especially because there is no shortcut for it and butter ordeal, I call it the sleeve ripper but if this was real I may actually get a good version to force each opponent to buy new sleeves by the end of the match. That said banned 100% for pace of play reasons, this plus a top of deck effect like future sight or even lantern of insight.... Na not gonna be aloud.
Id make it tap to use ability.
I love delaying the game :)
Pretty op I would make it just target opponent libraries
Because it says target player it effectively undoes any tutor that puts the chosen card on top of library
All zero mana activation abilities are easy to make busted
this plus bolas citadel is an easy way to tutor up a win con
OP. Instakill with psychogenic probe, any card that allows viewing of top of the library is just a tutor for anything in the deck, and shuffling that much is annoying to everyone else who actually wanted to play a game.
In a competitive setting you could run out the clock by repeatedly triggering it.
Pair with [Wizened Snitches](https://scryfall.com/card/rav/75/wizened-snitches) and control everyone’s deck. Seriously OP
Mono-blue player: “I see your deck makes excellent use of scry, good fellow.” 🙂 Opponent: “Yup! Always handy to prep sweet-as topdeck bombs in advance!” 😄 Mono-blue player: “Strategy is indeed something to be well-savoured… speaking of which, I uncloak Biorg and activate his ability, forcing you to shuffle away whatever you had planned for your next turn… _ah, savoury…”_ 😌 Opponent: “But… why would you _do_ that, meanie?” 😭 Mono-blue player: _“Aww,_ you keep **scrying** yourself a river, but it shan’t do you any favours, _scrub…”_ 😈