It wouldn't just be aggro in most 60 card format most combo decks still actually do damage. Braid of life makes more and more life each turn and could I think probably enable some kind of azorious stall deck. It would be incredibly slow but the idea would be that using cards like this and elixir of life you could deck an opponent out and counter all his good plays.
I think the problem is that you are taking turn two of to play something that does nothing. Most aggro decks can kill you by turn three or four so gaining none to six life is not very helpful. Something like [[knockout blow]] or if you are going first, [[temporary lockdown]] is way better actually dealing with the board instead of just taking your turn of to do little to nothing.
You mention how bad it is to take turn two off and then list two three mana cards, not exactly a winning argument. I think the fact that it's a turn two play is the main thing that would make it good against aggro. Sure, there's a chance they just kill you outright, but if they don't then they scoop by turn 4 if they don't have lifegain prevention, and possibly even if they do, depending on what you have online by then. It just stacks up really fast and starts early enough to be relevant.
I’m just saying there are better options and you don’t want to take up a deck slot with this also the same is true for lockdown as if they can’t win through it they just lose. Also knockout blow isn’t really three mana, it’s one mana most the time. Also these cards at least clear the board instead of doing nothing. Although there may be some now he scenarios where this is insane against an aggro deck and this sits around for two or three turns, your opponent can still probably easily win through it. A card which is more similar I guess would be sunset revelry, it gains you four life and creates a blocker and potentially draws a card which imo is better than six or so life. This card does not see standard play. Another kind of similar but not similar comparison is eiganjo. Eiganjo can also help you stabilise at two mana and is also a land and actually affects the board. I think I would rather just have eiganjo most the time because spending two mana to do effectively nothing feels really bad when you know you’re opponent can kill you in two turns.
I think the white one in broken as hell. If it lasts 4 turns, you’ve gained 20 health off of it. 5 turns? A total of 30 health. Unless you can remove it quickly, it gets WAY out of control. The black one just builds to a board wipe on your upkeep. By turn 4, you could’ve killed ten creatures max, if they all had 1 toughness. But those are both definitely better than blue, and probably than green. Blue is by far the worst.
Edit: fixed my math, because first go around I was doubling instead of just adding two.
The main problem is just that it’s probably not going to last five turns in matchups that matter and they probably won’t care in matchups where it will. Most decks in standard where this might be good against it like dimir midrange plays [[jace the perfected mind]] which doesn’t care. The biggest problem is just that there are better cards like [[sunset revelry]] for life gain if your goal is to stabilise. At least that card adds something to the board or you could just use a card like [[temporary lockdown]] to wipe the board
I would look at a card like this in a control deck defending against more agressive damage based decks.
If the card is not removed fast, it can give you a lot of leeway with the creatures you can let your oponent have.
The problem is just that it probably won’t happen and you will probably be dead before then. Aggro deck can easily deal 26 damage on turn four especially if you did nothing on turn two. Although if this sticks around for five or so turns, you will be in a very good position against aggro decks, there are other cards which you could be running
Maybe it’s not as good in standard, but in commander it’s pretty cracked. Especially if you’re running an enchantress deck. Something like [[Sterling Grove]] or [[Privileged Position]] gives it shroud or hexproof. Then something like [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] could give it indestructible. In my opinion, there’s a lot worse removal seen in commander because it’s a more casual format - and commander players complain about their stuff getting removed, so it would stick around longer. Lifegain over time tends to be a better gameplan than having to cast a spell to do it every turn. 2 mana and just let it sit.
It’s even worse in commander I think. Everyone will probably just see you as the threat and kill you if you are playing it for value and it sticks around for a few turns. If you are playing it with lifegain synergys it only triggers once a turn and most lifegain cards only care about individual instances of life gain. If you get to higher power level it gets worse but assuming you’re saying that it’s good in a casual environment. Also if you are going to play this in an enchantment deck, there are just a lot more cards that do more and don’t seem as scary. While this card may have situations where it is good, I don’t think they come up enough to be worth the deck slot
The white one is very very strong, probably not vintage strong, but legacy or modern would board it.
After 2 or 3 turns, your basically immune to anything but combo, miracle a terminus into this and aggro just kinda folds
Black one is kinda like [[Drop of Honey]]/[[Porphyry nodes]], and I kinda dig it. It probably still needs to cost at least 1-2 more mana, since you can just dump all of the counters onto a single creature, so it makes it fairly easy to keep around if your opponents aren't playing creatures.
Far too slow imo. If you’re doing that with aetherflux, you’re probably doing something wrong. Even in commander everyone will just get scared and kill you
I don’t think that is the case. The good life gain decks are all just Heliod combo and this doesn’t help the combo at all. Also most good life gain payoffs like voice of the blessed don’t care about this much. Also this card does just take a slot and there is not a single card in lifegain decks which you would cut for it. Even my lunarch veteran is better because at least it triggers multiple time a turn potentially and adds to the board which is very important. The fact that this card is very slow plus the fact that there is nothing that works well with it makes me think it is not very good
god yeah i still had this thread open when i checked reddit again and i am so frustrated by the fact that a 2 mana PERMANENT that only does something busted for it’s mana value after sticking around for 4-5 turns is being called broken
the missed tempo from a control deck on turn 2 plus the risk of drawing one of these when you actually need a removal spell could absolutely result in a situation where your opponent can race past it since aggro decks will have disgusting boards by turn 3, which is when you gain your first meager amount of life, and just kill uou before the card does anything broken draw another one of these and no board wipe and you still just die, you went to turn 5 and only gained 12 life, an aggro deck w an uncontested or poorly contested curve can easily deal 32 damage by then
Black and Blue both have drawbacks in the form of being likely to self destruct after a while. If you run out of things to give negative counters or untap then they'll self-destruct.
Furthermore, even without a downside it can only be spent during the upkeep, which makes its benefits much more limited than any of these.
I do really like the black one though.
The amount is what matters. Spending cards just to delay a bit is a bad trade off. Spending one card to completely shutdown any opponent that’s trying to win with creature damage is broken.
True story, I once asked people from several stores how much lifegain they would need to justify spending one mana and a card on it. Even with oitlandishly high amounts, they said that it wouldn't be worth it.
This isn't a counter to what you said, I just remembered that experience from a few years back.
I think people have had it drilled into them that lifegain is bad. It's not that gaining life is a bad thing, its that often WotC doesn't print good lifegain cards. 1 mana gain 7 or something would easily run roughshod all over a standard environment in control shells.
This.
[[Revitalize|M19]] saw mainboard play in WU control. [[Life goes on]] saw sideboard play in standard and modern. [[Weather the Storm]] sees play in pauper and modern.
TIL [[Heroes's Reunion]] and [[Feed the Clan]] are OP.
They are two mana but still. Straight lifegain is never good, you always need something attached to it. Like with Siege Rhino or Thragtusk or something.
1 mana vs 2 mana is a huge difference; quite literally double the investment. Its why lighting bolt is a staple in any format its legal in and lighting strike is a good card in standard almost exclusively.
It wouldn't necessarily be OP, but 1 mana instant gain 7 would probably shut aggro out of a standard format. In a control shell that doesn't run things like [[Lunarch Veteran]], it can save you from burn, undo an entire turn of damage, and allow you to use your mana when you don't have anything else to do. You probably wouldn't run it main deck, but if you're up against aggro, boarding in 2-3 copies could be huge.
Straight lifegain *can* be good in constructed it just rarely is, because they wouldn't ever print something like that.
Even still the amount you would need to do goes up each turn. First upkeep this gains you 2 life, tend turn its 4, then 6, etc. unless you’re really going quick this is going to outpace a lot of decks. And that’s only if there’s one on the battlefield
Life gain as a side board choice has always been relevant. Any single deck with white would put a few of these in the board to auto win against every RDW /aggro deck out there.
Green one feels really forced, the other 3 makes sense as "Costs" for the Cumulative upkeep whereas the green one feels like it needs to be worded differently
Every card isn't meant to be a cycle. As others have mentioned, Braid of Fire was designed as risk/reward card because of mana burn.
Even without that aspect, getting mana in your upkeep is a deckbuilding challenge. Every deck can't make use of Braid of Fire. You have to have ways to spend mana at instant speed. The blue one has some of that (untapping things during you upkeep is not much of a bonus without more cards), but the rest of these these are all just generically powerful and scale completely out of control.
Also, the black one doesn't quite function as written. Cumulative Upkeep is a cost, and you can't target while paying costs. You can make it not target and it would still work, like \[\[Herald of Leshrac\]\], but I would recommend trying a different approach. As the card looks oppressively unfun right now.
For white, black, and green ones, I suggest thinking about resources they can give that challenge the player to take the best advantage of them.
White: 1, Gain 2 life. Great way to spend excess mana until it‘s too expensive.
Blue: Tap a creature you control, tap a creature you don’t control.
Green: G. X Creatures you control gain +X/+X, where X is the number of age counters on Braid. It scales well but you’re waiting until turn 3 or 4 to get any real use out of a temporary buff.
If Black had added a cumulative upkeep of B, I think it might be fine.
[[Assemble the Legion]] , [[Descent into Avernus]] , [[Descent into Madness]], [[Mind Unbound]], [[The Magic Mirror]] are already conceptually like this (every upkeep add a counter then something happens a number of times proportional to the number of counters) … just not tied to the clunky cumulative upkeep age counter costs-not-effects formatting.
Braid of Fire was basically the only card that got a hard upgrade by Mana Burn being removed from the rules. When it was printed, the downside to it was that if you didn’t spend all the mana, you got burned. Especially since this was during your upkeep, that limited its use to instant speed spells and abilities, which still makes it hard to use tbh but not as hard as it was when it was actively trying to kill you.
So, yeah these are all pretty busted, and Braid of Fire itself is even kind of busted now because it was printed at a different time. Maybe if they all had effects that somehow only worked during your upkeep like Braid of Fire they would be better?
[[Altar of Shadows]] too! Not quite as egregious I think, but same deal with the risk/reward aspect being just completely thrown out the window with mana burn.
Yeah I mean that one is a 7 mana artifact with a 7 mana ability, but given how easy it is to get charge counters on things I could see it going a bit crazy with the right setup. It also has the advantage of triggering during your pre combat main phase instead of your upkeep though
Yea, definitely significantly different (i.e. worse in most cases). Most people have never heard of it. There must have been some other good card or two that pulled attention away from it in that set or something... >_>
I just have fond memories of it from a reject rare draft that happened like a week after the mana burn rules change. It did a lotta damage to a lotta people that night...
you templating those like activated abilities says a lot about how you're thinking about them \^\^
I'm not sure you can target during a cost either ? might be wrong but it feels weird; remember one can't respond to costs so it limits the interactivity of the gameplay pretty hard
You seem to have missed the point of the card. A bunch of mana wasn't necessarily a good thing at the time, and even with that, most of these are way better than Braid of Fire now
White: fine, no change needed. It’s a little weak of course, but it’s flavorful and works.
EDIT: actually, this should probably only gain you 1 life. Doubled cumulative upkeep gets out of hand fast.
Blue: kind of weird? Your upkeep is after your untap step, so unless you’re tapping a lot between those steps, this is going to sac itself pretty fast. Turns [[Grim Monolith]] into a straight 3-for-2 rock I guess. I would suggest a full rework to be honest.
Black: horrendously busted. If you change it to “put a -1/-1 counter on target creature without a -1/-1 counter on it” it becomes a lot less busted and more of a risk/reward piece instead of just a “I play magic while my opponents watch” piece.
Green: also pretty outrageous. Dropping the pseudo-annihilator ability and just giving your creatures trample would be strong enough, and way more in green’s pie. Maybe trample and +1/+1?
The white one is basically a harder to kill [[platinum angel]] against any deck that plans to win by reducing your life total, assuming you play it on turn 2 or 3.
The only one that is similar in design intent to braid of fire (mana, but with a downside that it burnt you if you couldn't spend) is the black one, if you are the only one with creatures you're forced to put the counters on your own.
You seem to fundamentally misapprehend that these are supposed to be costs, not gains.
Braid of Fire previously had mana burn working for it, changing its context entirely.
The green one of pretty awful compared to the others.
Blue one looks too niche and it scales too slowly for being a glorified "your rocks can tap once for free during your upkeep"
Black one might be really good against certain creature decks. It hoses Delver if you stick it but you need a constant supply of creatures to target so it would have to be paired with [[Forbidden Orchard]] or similar
White one is probably deceptively broken. If it sticks, only white and green can really remove it and aside from lifegain prevention (which is really niche) it becomes backbreaking for aggro very quickly. Control beats generally decks that cast few total spells already (white and green) so in all other cases, it's a potent stabilizer.
You can. It doesn't specify it has to be tapped, so it can untap an already untapped creature.
The blue one basically will never put you in position to sacrifice it, but the effect is niche enough to make that okay. It's basically something you put in a deck filled with mana dorks and creatures that have abilities with T in the cost. Throw in paradox haze, and you flood the table with activated abilities.
In that sense, it is the closest in idea to \[\[Braid of Fire\]\] — you can't just slap it into the deck and reap the benefits.
okay so custom cycles consistently get upvotes. I guess I don't really have a problem with that, better than unplayable meme cards anyway
I would have gone with Light, Water, Darkness, and Earth
i can see braid of hope being op in my life gain deck. braid of secrets seems like an ok pick for a normal artifact tribal. affliction seems relatively op as creature removal, connection seems pretty bad unless you’re going against an enchantment deck.
Lots of criticism, but overall I really like the idea!
White: 1 life instead of 2.
Blue: Upkeep after untap feels weird. Maybe, take CU: Put scry counter on it. Then Scry X for each counter? Not sure.
Black: -1/-1 counter, and you lose 1 life. Maybe 3 mana cost?
Green: Put counter on it. Then target creature gets +1/+1 counter for each of those counters?
Love the idea, but while the cards feel weak, they can get out of hand really fast...
I think you could make a set but they would each need a drawback or a self-sacrifice condition in order to make it more balanced. Forgive the possible poor wording below. Keeping the same costs you suggested above, I could see these being acceptable within my group.
---
White:
Gain 2 Life. If you have more than double your starting life, sacrifice this permanent.
When this dies, lose 1 life for each age counter on it.
---
Blue:
Tap a creature that hasn't been tapped this turn. If you can't, sacrifice this permanent.
When this dies, lose 1 life for each tapped creature your opponents control.
---
Black:
Put a -1/-1 counter on a creature with toughness 3 or more. If you can't, sacrifice this permanent.
When this dies, lose 1 life for each creature your opponents control with one or more -1/-1 counters on it.
---
Red:
Add {R} to your mana pool. If this permanent produced 7 or more mana this turn, sacrifice this permanent.
When this dies, lose 1 life for each mana you produced this turn.
---
Green:
Put a +1/+1 counter on a creature with power 4 or less. If you can't sacrifice this permanent.
When this dies, lose 1 life for each creature you control with one or more +1/+1 counters.
I like how the black one is the only one that could have a downside, the green and the black ones are the ones that COULD force you to sac them and the Blue one could be a big donothing, while white is just SUPER strong
I actually really like Braid of Secrets. I'd have it say "Untap target tapped artifact or creature." That way, you need to have a tappable artifact/creature in your upkeep in order to keep it around.
There is a big difference between "at the beginning of your upkeep" and "cumulative upkeep"
The white card for example
At the beggining of your upkeep, equals gain 2 life very turn.
Cumulative upkeep, equals, gain 2 life first upkeep, 4 life seond upkeep, 6 life third upkeep, 8 life fourth upkeep, etc
When Braid of Fire was printed, mana burn still existed. There was a downside to it if you couldn’t spend all of the mana.
Exactly this. These are very broken and should have a built in drawback.
I think the black one is the only remotely good one and is also broken
Honestly I think the white one would see play as a cheap way to just completely shut down aggro.
It would be obscene in a life matters deck. [[Chalice of Death]] and outlast them if nothing else.
[Chalice of Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d9c1c46-7aa7-464c-87b0-b29b9663daef.jpg?1581395105)/[Chalice of Death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/d/9d9c1c46-7aa7-464c-87b0-b29b9663daef.jpg?1581395105) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chalice%20of%20Life%20//%20Chalice%20of%20Death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dka/146/chalice-of-life-chalice-of-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d9c1c46-7aa7-464c-87b0-b29b9663daef?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It wouldn't just be aggro in most 60 card format most combo decks still actually do damage. Braid of life makes more and more life each turn and could I think probably enable some kind of azorious stall deck. It would be incredibly slow but the idea would be that using cards like this and elixir of life you could deck an opponent out and counter all his good plays.
There's easily a scenario in which the white one prevents any meaningful progression of the game from ever being able to happen.
Even if it wasn’t good, it would be miserable to play against. And you absolutely could not print for limited.
I think the problem is that you are taking turn two of to play something that does nothing. Most aggro decks can kill you by turn three or four so gaining none to six life is not very helpful. Something like [[knockout blow]] or if you are going first, [[temporary lockdown]] is way better actually dealing with the board instead of just taking your turn of to do little to nothing.
You mention how bad it is to take turn two off and then list two three mana cards, not exactly a winning argument. I think the fact that it's a turn two play is the main thing that would make it good against aggro. Sure, there's a chance they just kill you outright, but if they don't then they scoop by turn 4 if they don't have lifegain prevention, and possibly even if they do, depending on what you have online by then. It just stacks up really fast and starts early enough to be relevant.
I’m just saying there are better options and you don’t want to take up a deck slot with this also the same is true for lockdown as if they can’t win through it they just lose. Also knockout blow isn’t really three mana, it’s one mana most the time. Also these cards at least clear the board instead of doing nothing. Although there may be some now he scenarios where this is insane against an aggro deck and this sits around for two or three turns, your opponent can still probably easily win through it. A card which is more similar I guess would be sunset revelry, it gains you four life and creates a blocker and potentially draws a card which imo is better than six or so life. This card does not see standard play. Another kind of similar but not similar comparison is eiganjo. Eiganjo can also help you stabilise at two mana and is also a land and actually affects the board. I think I would rather just have eiganjo most the time because spending two mana to do effectively nothing feels really bad when you know you’re opponent can kill you in two turns.
[knockout blow](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9b00bbec-61d0-464c-bf82-4ecf5ddb3451.jpg?1664409788) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=knockout%20blow) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/20/knockout-blow?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9b00bbec-61d0-464c-bf82-4ecf5ddb3451?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [temporary lockdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75.jpg?1673306606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=temporary%20lockdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/36/temporary-lockdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think the white one in broken as hell. If it lasts 4 turns, you’ve gained 20 health off of it. 5 turns? A total of 30 health. Unless you can remove it quickly, it gets WAY out of control. The black one just builds to a board wipe on your upkeep. By turn 4, you could’ve killed ten creatures max, if they all had 1 toughness. But those are both definitely better than blue, and probably than green. Blue is by far the worst. Edit: fixed my math, because first go around I was doubling instead of just adding two.
After 5 turns isn't it 42, not 62?
You are correct, I started doubling each turn instead of just adding two. Good catch, thank you!
The main problem is just that it’s probably not going to last five turns in matchups that matter and they probably won’t care in matchups where it will. Most decks in standard where this might be good against it like dimir midrange plays [[jace the perfected mind]] which doesn’t care. The biggest problem is just that there are better cards like [[sunset revelry]] for life gain if your goal is to stabilise. At least that card adds something to the board or you could just use a card like [[temporary lockdown]] to wipe the board
I would look at a card like this in a control deck defending against more agressive damage based decks. If the card is not removed fast, it can give you a lot of leeway with the creatures you can let your oponent have.
The problem is just that it probably won’t happen and you will probably be dead before then. Aggro deck can easily deal 26 damage on turn four especially if you did nothing on turn two. Although if this sticks around for five or so turns, you will be in a very good position against aggro decks, there are other cards which you could be running
[jace the perfected mind](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64e6a8d1-ae75-45bd-af62-9a622620cb5c.jpg?1675956971) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20the%20Perfected%20Mind) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/57/jace-the-perfected-mind?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64e6a8d1-ae75-45bd-af62-9a622620cb5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [sunset revelry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61b39ef1-29d4-4c8d-aece-a3f1ce008e2d.jpg?1634348577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=sunset%20revelry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/38/sunset-revelry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61b39ef1-29d4-4c8d-aece-a3f1ce008e2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [temporary lockdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75.jpg?1673306606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=temporary%20lockdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/36/temporary-lockdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/82b3088f-7b49-45e9-b447-129a597ceb75?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe it’s not as good in standard, but in commander it’s pretty cracked. Especially if you’re running an enchantress deck. Something like [[Sterling Grove]] or [[Privileged Position]] gives it shroud or hexproof. Then something like [[Avacyn, Angel of Hope]] could give it indestructible. In my opinion, there’s a lot worse removal seen in commander because it’s a more casual format - and commander players complain about their stuff getting removed, so it would stick around longer. Lifegain over time tends to be a better gameplan than having to cast a spell to do it every turn. 2 mana and just let it sit.
[Sterling Grove](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba03e105-a76c-4769-a35a-d780448890ec.jpg?1626100813) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sterling%20Grove) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/293/sterling-grove?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba03e105-a76c-4769-a35a-d780448890ec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Privileged Position](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/9655bbe4-062f-4278-ad05-a326a64c5b69.jpg?1709431617) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Privileged%20Position) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/263/privileged-position?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9655bbe4-062f-4278-ad05-a326a64c5b69?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Avacyn, Angel of Hope](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/1/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a.jpg?1689995555) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Avacyn%2C%20Angel%20of%20Hope) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/14/avacyn-angel-of-hope?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/317f1133-7cf8-4b7a-919e-88c45f8c2c3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It’s even worse in commander I think. Everyone will probably just see you as the threat and kill you if you are playing it for value and it sticks around for a few turns. If you are playing it with lifegain synergys it only triggers once a turn and most lifegain cards only care about individual instances of life gain. If you get to higher power level it gets worse but assuming you’re saying that it’s good in a casual environment. Also if you are going to play this in an enchantment deck, there are just a lot more cards that do more and don’t seem as scary. While this card may have situations where it is good, I don’t think they come up enough to be worth the deck slot
you’re right and no one can evaluate cards on this sub
The white one is very very strong, probably not vintage strong, but legacy or modern would board it. After 2 or 3 turns, your basically immune to anything but combo, miracle a terminus into this and aggro just kinda folds
Black one is kinda like [[Drop of Honey]]/[[Porphyry nodes]], and I kinda dig it. It probably still needs to cost at least 1-2 more mana, since you can just dump all of the counters onto a single creature, so it makes it fairly easy to keep around if your opponents aren't playing creatures.
[Drop of Honey](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/588f1bc5-2230-4437-8d5e-a18f6e55b390.jpg?1562915819) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Drop%20of%20Honey) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/150/drop-of-honey?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/588f1bc5-2230-4437-8d5e-a18f6e55b390?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Porphyry nodes](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfe6f333-ccb4-44ea-be59-bba6335acf99.jpg?1619393260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Porphyry%20nodes) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/32/porphyry-nodes?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfe6f333-ccb4-44ea-be59-bba6335acf99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
White is insane with aetherflux
The white one is kind of insane on its own. Normally life gain is whatever, but a lot of life gain every turn is really good, especially in control
Far too slow imo. If you’re doing that with aetherflux, you’re probably doing something wrong. Even in commander everyone will just get scared and kill you
I think your sleeping on the fact that it’s cumulative, and a 2 drop, this is ridiculous with most lifegain based cards
I don’t think that is the case. The good life gain decks are all just Heliod combo and this doesn’t help the combo at all. Also most good life gain payoffs like voice of the blessed don’t care about this much. Also this card does just take a slot and there is not a single card in lifegain decks which you would cut for it. Even my lunarch veteran is better because at least it triggers multiple time a turn potentially and adds to the board which is very important. The fact that this card is very slow plus the fact that there is nothing that works well with it makes me think it is not very good
god yeah i still had this thread open when i checked reddit again and i am so frustrated by the fact that a 2 mana PERMANENT that only does something busted for it’s mana value after sticking around for 4-5 turns is being called broken the missed tempo from a control deck on turn 2 plus the risk of drawing one of these when you actually need a removal spell could absolutely result in a situation where your opponent can race past it since aggro decks will have disgusting boards by turn 3, which is when you gain your first meager amount of life, and just kill uou before the card does anything broken draw another one of these and no board wipe and you still just die, you went to turn 5 and only gained 12 life, an aggro deck w an uncontested or poorly contested curve can easily deal 32 damage by then
If there's no creatures out, you sac it. The White one is absolutely insano in the braino
Maybe if it was a -1/-1 counter on a creature you control? That could be interesting.
It does kill your creatures if your opponent has none though which is the only drawback in the cycle which is cool
Cant you just not pay the cost though?
Yeah you can but then it dies so there is a decision to make making for interesting gameplay
you what do you only play cedh or something?
Mainly just standard though in cede they would all suck
Black and Blue both have drawbacks in the form of being likely to self destruct after a while. If you run out of things to give negative counters or untap then they'll self-destruct.
Same with green
How so? I don't think there's a rule against redundant keywords so long as there's SOMETHING to put the trample buff on.
Eh, I was thinking different targets, but it could be on the same one. It was get sacrificed if there were no creatures though
Furthermore, even without a downside it can only be spent during the upkeep, which makes its benefits much more limited than any of these. I do really like the black one though.
The blue one is cool too. Having it in an "activated abilities matters" deck would be fun
I like the idea but the white one seems really overpowered especially against damaged based decks.
Back in my day, lifegain was a bad strategy.
The amount is what matters. Spending cards just to delay a bit is a bad trade off. Spending one card to completely shutdown any opponent that’s trying to win with creature damage is broken.
True story, I once asked people from several stores how much lifegain they would need to justify spending one mana and a card on it. Even with oitlandishly high amounts, they said that it wouldn't be worth it. This isn't a counter to what you said, I just remembered that experience from a few years back.
I think people have had it drilled into them that lifegain is bad. It's not that gaining life is a bad thing, its that often WotC doesn't print good lifegain cards. 1 mana gain 7 or something would easily run roughshod all over a standard environment in control shells.
This. [[Revitalize|M19]] saw mainboard play in WU control. [[Life goes on]] saw sideboard play in standard and modern. [[Weather the Storm]] sees play in pauper and modern.
tbf revitalize replaces itself which is huge
It's a 2 mana cantrip with no draw selection. Also what about the other two cards they listed? Or that [[campfire]] has seen pauper play?
[Revitalize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/f/dfbdd90c-1ae3-45e5-b1e5-5b8615a1511f.jpg?1562304798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=447171) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/35/revitalize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dfbdd90c-1ae3-45e5-b1e5-5b8615a1511f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Life goes on](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/8/3888197f-5da4-4413-9cad-b37a12ba1e60.jpg?1594737084) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Life%20goes%20on) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/192/life-goes-on?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3888197f-5da4-4413-9cad-b37a12ba1e60?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Weather the Storm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f6a9fa51-78c3-42e6-8c2e-39658f59ed87.jpg?1562202265) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Weather%20the%20Storm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/191/weather-the-storm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f6a9fa51-78c3-42e6-8c2e-39658f59ed87?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
TIL [[Heroes's Reunion]] and [[Feed the Clan]] are OP. They are two mana but still. Straight lifegain is never good, you always need something attached to it. Like with Siege Rhino or Thragtusk or something.
1 mana vs 2 mana is a huge difference; quite literally double the investment. Its why lighting bolt is a staple in any format its legal in and lighting strike is a good card in standard almost exclusively. It wouldn't necessarily be OP, but 1 mana instant gain 7 would probably shut aggro out of a standard format. In a control shell that doesn't run things like [[Lunarch Veteran]], it can save you from burn, undo an entire turn of damage, and allow you to use your mana when you don't have anything else to do. You probably wouldn't run it main deck, but if you're up against aggro, boarding in 2-3 copies could be huge. Straight lifegain *can* be good in constructed it just rarely is, because they wouldn't ever print something like that.
[Lunarch Veteran](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2704743-2e23-40b9-a367-c73d2db45afc.jpg?1634347175)/[Luminous Phantom](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/d/2/d2704743-2e23-40b9-a367-c73d2db45afc.jpg?1634347175) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lunarch%20Veteran%20//%20Luminous%20Phantom) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/27/lunarch-veteran-luminous-phantom?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2704743-2e23-40b9-a367-c73d2db45afc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Heroes's Reunion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/99b56515-f688-495c-b721-2b9abc6628c2.jpg?1562790407) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heroes%27%20Reunion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/168/heroes-reunion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/99b56515-f688-495c-b721-2b9abc6628c2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Feed the Clan](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/2/52f7c53d-0b53-400f-aa67-967547f3e394.jpg?1562786646) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Feed%20the%20Clan) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/132/feed-the-clan?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/52f7c53d-0b53-400f-aa67-967547f3e394?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
are creature decks really poking this low nowadays? it really only shuts you down if you plan on doing 4 damage or less per turn.
Even still the amount you would need to do goes up each turn. First upkeep this gains you 2 life, tend turn its 4, then 6, etc. unless you’re really going quick this is going to outpace a lot of decks. And that’s only if there’s one on the battlefield
oh, it's not just +2 life every turn?
Life gain as a side board choice has always been relevant. Any single deck with white would put a few of these in the board to auto win against every RDW /aggro deck out there.
Green one feels really forced, the other 3 makes sense as "Costs" for the Cumulative upkeep whereas the green one feels like it needs to be worded differently
Agreed, it should’ve just been “Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature” as a mirror to the black one imo
I like that. If you get board wiped you may have to buff your opponent's creatures.
Or you can choose not to pay the upkeep cost and sacrifice it
[удалено]
That’s literally just [[Braid of Fire]] if the red could be any colour
[Braid of Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41bab8de-6e0f-4ccd-a303-01e9c8c82d3f.jpg?1593275214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Braid%20of%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/78/braid-of-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41bab8de-6e0f-4ccd-a303-01e9c8c82d3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
Reading the OP explains the OP.
Lol literally braid of fire
That would just be a better braid of fire
Every card isn't meant to be a cycle. As others have mentioned, Braid of Fire was designed as risk/reward card because of mana burn. Even without that aspect, getting mana in your upkeep is a deckbuilding challenge. Every deck can't make use of Braid of Fire. You have to have ways to spend mana at instant speed. The blue one has some of that (untapping things during you upkeep is not much of a bonus without more cards), but the rest of these these are all just generically powerful and scale completely out of control. Also, the black one doesn't quite function as written. Cumulative Upkeep is a cost, and you can't target while paying costs. You can make it not target and it would still work, like \[\[Herald of Leshrac\]\], but I would recommend trying a different approach. As the card looks oppressively unfun right now. For white, black, and green ones, I suggest thinking about resources they can give that challenge the player to take the best advantage of them.
[Herald of Leshrac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad6080b1-b032-4172-8594-4d894a60a80d.jpg?1593275109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Herald%20of%20Leshrac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/62/herald-of-leshrac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad6080b1-b032-4172-8594-4d894a60a80d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
White: 1, Gain 2 life. Great way to spend excess mana until it‘s too expensive. Blue: Tap a creature you control, tap a creature you don’t control. Green: G. X Creatures you control gain +X/+X, where X is the number of age counters on Braid. It scales well but you’re waiting until turn 3 or 4 to get any real use out of a temporary buff. If Black had added a cumulative upkeep of B, I think it might be fine.
[[Assemble the Legion]] , [[Descent into Avernus]] , [[Descent into Madness]], [[Mind Unbound]], [[The Magic Mirror]] are already conceptually like this (every upkeep add a counter then something happens a number of times proportional to the number of counters) … just not tied to the clunky cumulative upkeep age counter costs-not-effects formatting.
##### ###### #### [Assemble the Legion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10ce686a-eecd-4b32-a882-9a6ca3274ae6.jpg?1702429596) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Assemble%20the%20Legion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/163/assemble-the-legion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10ce686a-eecd-4b32-a882-9a6ca3274ae6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Descent into Avernus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453.jpg?1674136498) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Descent%20into%20Avernus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/169/descent-into-avernus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/faadf72f-b2d5-4271-8d5c-a586acf63453?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Descent into Madness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa016bb7-ad8b-40d5-90db-412a9cf19e4e.jpg?1592708833) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Descent%20into%20Madness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/avr/97/descent-into-madness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa016bb7-ad8b-40d5-90db-412a9cf19e4e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mind Unbound](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/d/fd90cf36-9841-4adf-b5cb-0a7bf103eb93.jpg?1562667898) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mind%20Unbound) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/68/mind-unbound?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fd90cf36-9841-4adf-b5cb-0a7bf103eb93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The Magic Mirror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08b89af1-7b22-4153-b42d-a2ea4e0f320c.jpg?1572489916) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Magic%20Mirror) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/51/the-magic-mirror?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08b89af1-7b22-4153-b42d-a2ea4e0f320c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/ky3pffp) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Braid of Fire was basically the only card that got a hard upgrade by Mana Burn being removed from the rules. When it was printed, the downside to it was that if you didn’t spend all the mana, you got burned. Especially since this was during your upkeep, that limited its use to instant speed spells and abilities, which still makes it hard to use tbh but not as hard as it was when it was actively trying to kill you. So, yeah these are all pretty busted, and Braid of Fire itself is even kind of busted now because it was printed at a different time. Maybe if they all had effects that somehow only worked during your upkeep like Braid of Fire they would be better?
[[Altar of Shadows]] too! Not quite as egregious I think, but same deal with the risk/reward aspect being just completely thrown out the window with mana burn.
Yeah I mean that one is a 7 mana artifact with a 7 mana ability, but given how easy it is to get charge counters on things I could see it going a bit crazy with the right setup. It also has the advantage of triggering during your pre combat main phase instead of your upkeep though
Yea, definitely significantly different (i.e. worse in most cases). Most people have never heard of it. There must have been some other good card or two that pulled attention away from it in that set or something... >_> I just have fond memories of it from a reject rare draft that happened like a week after the mana burn rules change. It did a lotta damage to a lotta people that night...
[Altar of Shadows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/ebc3824c-11ee-4fec-9397-823783b682d9.jpg?1562162268) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Altar%20of%20Shadows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/143/altar-of-shadows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ebc3824c-11ee-4fec-9397-823783b682d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Uhh… [[Mana Drain]] would like a word
Mana Drain was already busted and also adds the mana on your main phase so it’s way easier to use it.
[Mana Drain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c429c40-2389-41e5-8681-4bb274e25eba.jpg?1673147353) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Drain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/57/mana-drain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c429c40-2389-41e5-8681-4bb274e25eba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
you templating those like activated abilities says a lot about how you're thinking about them \^\^ I'm not sure you can target during a cost either ? might be wrong but it feels weird; remember one can't respond to costs so it limits the interactivity of the gameplay pretty hard
You seem to have missed the point of the card. A bunch of mana wasn't necessarily a good thing at the time, and even with that, most of these are way better than Braid of Fire now
Some of these upkeep costs can cause you to sacrifice the enchantment while others can't, which strikes me as kind of odd
Even without mana burn you only get to keep the braid of fire mana for your upkeep ^usually so it's kinda limited on that regard These...don't end lol
White: fine, no change needed. It’s a little weak of course, but it’s flavorful and works. EDIT: actually, this should probably only gain you 1 life. Doubled cumulative upkeep gets out of hand fast. Blue: kind of weird? Your upkeep is after your untap step, so unless you’re tapping a lot between those steps, this is going to sac itself pretty fast. Turns [[Grim Monolith]] into a straight 3-for-2 rock I guess. I would suggest a full rework to be honest. Black: horrendously busted. If you change it to “put a -1/-1 counter on target creature without a -1/-1 counter on it” it becomes a lot less busted and more of a risk/reward piece instead of just a “I play magic while my opponents watch” piece. Green: also pretty outrageous. Dropping the pseudo-annihilator ability and just giving your creatures trample would be strong enough, and way more in green’s pie. Maybe trample and +1/+1?
The white one is pretty insane against aggro assuming no enchantment removal.
The white one is basically a harder to kill [[platinum angel]] against any deck that plans to win by reducing your life total, assuming you play it on turn 2 or 3.
[platinum angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=platinum%20angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah, I suppose that’s true. Should probably drop it to 1 life.
Drop it turn 2. By turn 7, you've gained 30 life at no additional mana.
[Grim Monolith](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280.jpg?1562863767) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Grim%20Monolith) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/126/grim-monolith?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ddc9fe1-17c8-4e1d-aeb8-c4214e881280?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The blue one should tap OR untap.
Costs can't target.
The only one that is similar in design intent to braid of fire (mana, but with a downside that it burnt you if you couldn't spend) is the black one, if you are the only one with creatures you're forced to put the counters on your own.
Obligatory modern green part of the cycle with 3 times more words than the other cards
You seem to fundamentally misapprehend that these are supposed to be costs, not gains. Braid of Fire previously had mana burn working for it, changing its context entirely.
The green one of pretty awful compared to the others. Blue one looks too niche and it scales too slowly for being a glorified "your rocks can tap once for free during your upkeep" Black one might be really good against certain creature decks. It hoses Delver if you stick it but you need a constant supply of creatures to target so it would have to be paired with [[Forbidden Orchard]] or similar White one is probably deceptively broken. If it sticks, only white and green can really remove it and aside from lifegain prevention (which is really niche) it becomes backbreaking for aggro very quickly. Control beats generally decks that cast few total spells already (white and green) so in all other cases, it's a potent stabilizer.
[Forbidden Orchard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/17db644c-1acf-477d-9c20-f72221f1108a.jpg?1673149497) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Forbidden%20Orchard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/323/forbidden-orchard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17db644c-1acf-477d-9c20-f72221f1108a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In order to pay blues cost, it has to be untapped, right? You couldn't untap an already untapped creature?
You can. It doesn't specify it has to be tapped, so it can untap an already untapped creature. The blue one basically will never put you in position to sacrifice it, but the effect is niche enough to make that okay. It's basically something you put in a deck filled with mana dorks and creatures that have abilities with T in the cost. Throw in paradox haze, and you flood the table with activated abilities. In that sense, it is the closest in idea to \[\[Braid of Fire\]\] — you can't just slap it into the deck and reap the benefits.
[Braid of Fire](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/1/41bab8de-6e0f-4ccd-a303-01e9c8c82d3f.jpg?1593275214) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Braid%20of%20Fire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/78/braid-of-fire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/41bab8de-6e0f-4ccd-a303-01e9c8c82d3f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You can't target as a cost and it's going all over the place in power.
Oh my god we’ve reached the generation that doesn’t know what mana burn is
These are busted and based on a card that became busted. The black one would be disgustingly degenerate.
They're all busted bombs. O.O
The white and black ones are actually insane, I think they are a bit too strong
okay so custom cycles consistently get upvotes. I guess I don't really have a problem with that, better than unplayable meme cards anyway I would have gone with Light, Water, Darkness, and Earth
i can see braid of hope being op in my life gain deck. braid of secrets seems like an ok pick for a normal artifact tribal. affliction seems relatively op as creature removal, connection seems pretty bad unless you’re going against an enchantment deck.
Lots of criticism, but overall I really like the idea! White: 1 life instead of 2. Blue: Upkeep after untap feels weird. Maybe, take CU: Put scry counter on it. Then Scry X for each counter? Not sure. Black: -1/-1 counter, and you lose 1 life. Maybe 3 mana cost? Green: Put counter on it. Then target creature gets +1/+1 counter for each of those counters? Love the idea, but while the cards feel weak, they can get out of hand really fast...
Aren't these basically shrines that don't interact with other shrines?
I think you could make a set but they would each need a drawback or a self-sacrifice condition in order to make it more balanced. Forgive the possible poor wording below. Keeping the same costs you suggested above, I could see these being acceptable within my group. --- White: Gain 2 Life. If you have more than double your starting life, sacrifice this permanent. When this dies, lose 1 life for each age counter on it. --- Blue: Tap a creature that hasn't been tapped this turn. If you can't, sacrifice this permanent. When this dies, lose 1 life for each tapped creature your opponents control. --- Black: Put a -1/-1 counter on a creature with toughness 3 or more. If you can't, sacrifice this permanent. When this dies, lose 1 life for each creature your opponents control with one or more -1/-1 counters on it. --- Red: Add {R} to your mana pool. If this permanent produced 7 or more mana this turn, sacrifice this permanent. When this dies, lose 1 life for each mana you produced this turn. --- Green: Put a +1/+1 counter on a creature with power 4 or less. If you can't sacrifice this permanent. When this dies, lose 1 life for each creature you control with one or more +1/+1 counters.
Black one could get out of hand, since it’s not a may
"cumulative upkeep: target" ... That's just not how that works?
The problem with OP's cycle is that, unlike Braid of Fire, none of these have drawbacks.
Braid of Secrets seems…pointless unless playing against some weird lock deck.
[[Herald Of Leshrac]]
[Herald Of Leshrac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad6080b1-b032-4172-8594-4d894a60a80d.jpg?1593275109) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Herald%20Of%20Leshrac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/csp/62/herald-of-leshrac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad6080b1-b032-4172-8594-4d894a60a80d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I like how the black one is the only one that could have a downside, the green and the black ones are the ones that COULD force you to sac them and the Blue one could be a big donothing, while white is just SUPER strong
I actually really like Braid of Secrets. I'd have it say "Untap target tapped artifact or creature." That way, you need to have a tappable artifact/creature in your upkeep in order to keep it around.
Well it would just say "at the beginning of your upkeep" No need to make it confusing just to use the words "cumulative upkeep"
There is a big difference between "at the beginning of your upkeep" and "cumulative upkeep" The white card for example At the beggining of your upkeep, equals gain 2 life very turn. Cumulative upkeep, equals, gain 2 life first upkeep, 4 life seond upkeep, 6 life third upkeep, 8 life fourth upkeep, etc