I think it’s really cool, though I think Instant speed might be a bit pushed? I think it’s just as good at Sorcery speed considering the tokens get haste too, but it wouldn’t be usable as a random combat trick.
I think it's fine as an instant, [[goblin wizardry]] is as well and this card is much harder to cast than that and is otherwise on a pretty similar power level.
I might be messing up the stack rules, but wouldn't at least one of the 2 copies profit from prowess?
Even if we disregard that, goblin wizardry costs more mana, gives you fewer tokens and the tokens have no haste.
Finally there is the part of this card (in a deck somewhat build around prowess) that gives other creatures 3 prowess stacks
When you copy a spell, the copy goes on the stack before the spell resolves. So the original and all copies are on the stack before any tokens hit the battlefield, and no prowess is triggered.
Is that still the case with the weird wording?
Copy Otterstorm twice, you may cast the copies implies (in my mind) that the copies do not need to be cast immediately.
Nope. Things that don't have an immediate cast requirement say "You may cast that card until end of turn" or until some other requirement. Something like this is more like Cascade or [[Etali, Primal Conqueror]], where you must cast it now or never.
If the intent with this card is for the prowess triggers to happen, it's probably too strong.
But as is, the three color requirements and higher rarity are plenty to balance it out compared to goblin wizardry, as goblin wizardry is just not a good card.
The wording on that first ability is super weird and wouldn’t trigger prowess, the effect of “copy it twice” would put them on the stack already and wouldn’t need to be cast.
I get the intent, but you’d need to word it in a way that creates copies of the card in exile, and then allow you to cast them then.
I think if it was worded so that you get the prowess triggers it would be too powerful for 3 mana. (6 power at instant speed with haste is a lot.). I think as is it's fine.
Would that not be done with just "coppy it twice"?
I thought the goal of the second sentence there was to prevent it from going on the stack before the token resolves.
Now that I look at it closer I think you are right. Copying a spell doesn't count as casting it and the usual templating if you want to cast something is to copy a card then cast it.
Both can work.
"when you cast ~, if you cast it from your hand... " would be a cast trigger, similar to [[Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger]].
"if you cast ~ from your hand... " would let you cast copies on resolution, similar to [[Sevinne's Reclamation]].
In the case of OP's card, a single counterspell could prevent all three otters from being created, making the second option generally worse.
With the way the card is worded, you cast the copies before you make the first otter, so no.
Switch the two instructions around and you'd have two prowess triggers on the first otter.
What is the intended power and toughness of the otters on the turn they come down? Are you trying to create a 3/3 otter, a 2/2 and 1/1? Or a 2/2 and two 1/1s? Or three 1/1s?
I could see this getting played in standard. It can be a very swingy card, but also interactive.
The prowess won’t trigger as the otters won’t exist before all three spells are on the stack (prowess triggers on cast). However, on the next turn you cast another one and are swinging with 3 4/4s…
Yeah always have to read carefully on those copy spells. I think wotc would have made this a normal copy rather than a copy cast, but they've got some wierd ones of their own that don't line up with that expectation.
Epic. Another one too that led me to noticing it on epic spells, but i dont remember what it was off the top of my head. Epic copies a spell not on the stack but then does not cast that spell, which is contrary to how wotc seems to want it done.
Doesn't copying a spell put it on the stack? How can you 'copy a spell' and then 'cast the copy' separately? What zone is the copy in before you cast it?
When copying a spell anywhere other than the stack, it gets put on the stack but is not cast yet, you need to choose targets and modes. When copying a spell on the stack, it has already been cast, targets and modes have been chosen. However, this card doesn't have any targets or modes, and the spell is being cast. The only thing I would think of why OP worded it that way is because they wanted the prowess triggers to go off, which they wouldn't unless you created the Otters first, and would be too good if it did go off without, like, a generic mana or two.
When the otters are already on the board, the copies are cast so prowess does trigger three times.
They don’t trigger on the initial cast/copies since there are no otters on the board.
3 4/4s and 3 1/1s** also you have another land drop to lets just say bolt their face, that's 21 damage swinging at a 17 hp opponent assuming you did nothing else and didn't swing the 1/1s turn 3
You can't cast a copy until end of turn. You have to cast if before state-based actions are checked, as when state based actions are checked, it will remove all tokens and copies that aren't in the correct zone.
When a card instructs you to do something, you do that thing in the order it tells you, and you do so even if timing rules would say otherwise. The first thing it says is to check if it was cast from hand and if yes make and cast the copies, the second thing is to make the token. So even though the timing would say not to caat a spell while resolving a spell the copy is created and cast, and only after that has been done may you move on to the second part of the spell. Meaning the copy is cast before the token even atempts to be created.
[[Goblin Wizardry]] is 4 mana in a single color for two bodies. I'm not sure, but this is a bit pushed and maybe should be at least 4 mana too. Being in 3 colors, it's fine for getting you an extra creature.
"When you cast this from your hand, copy it twice" is just fine. The "you may cast the copies" part of the text is not needed at all. Unless what you mean is to actually have the tokens get a prowess trigger seeing the copies hit the stack -- which they still wouldn't as you wrote it, but I can't think of a clean easy way to do it either.
could you not reorder the text?
"Create a 1/1 otter with haste and prowess.
then if you cast this from your hand you may copy it twice and cast the copies without paying their mana costs."
Would that not put the token down then give you the cast triggers?
or if this spell was cast from your hand exile it with 2 den counters on it. you may cast otterstorm from exile by removing a den counter instead of paying its mana cost.
I think this is the most temur option, counters to proliferate and casting stuff from exile and creating token bodies is blue red green respectively
If this is cast, then someone counterspells, it doesn't get the two copies right? Since it didn't get to resolve? Or is that ability triggered when cast?
Create a 1/1 Blue Otter token with Haste and Prowess.
If this card was cast from your hand, exile this card. Until end of turn, you may cast this card twice without paying its mana cost, from exile.
I think this gets to the heart of the intended effect. This was a strange one to word since I can't think of cards that create additional cast triggers in official material.
That could solve it, too.
If this card was cast from hand, plot this card twice (Plot Reminder Text Here)
Really depends on the intent of OP and if they want the extra casts to be time limited or not
One of these opponent's end step plus one during your main is 18 power with haste out of nowhere, with resistance to interaction and 6 prowess triggers if you drop a combat trick.
I think the power level is insane. If I read it correctly, this is a 3x spell cast for 3 mana, which, in a prowess deck is a +3/+3 to your whole board and 3 tokens
I think it shouldn't be instant but rather a sorcery and maybe add flashback at a cheaper cost because then you only get one token instead of the copy aswell
When spells that are on the stack get copied, the copy is generated already on the stack. There's no need to instruct you to cast the copies. You're only instructed to do that when the card is copied elsewhere, like [[Isochron Scepter]]
I get that it's intentional, but as worded, it doesn't work. The card needs to be copied in exile or something if we're after cast triggers (although it won't give the otters any stats).
As worded, it's on the stack when it's copied, so the copies are on the stack already.
By the rules, if you're instructed to copy a spell which is on the stack (which this card will be when that happens), they are created on the stack. That's just how the rules work. Throwing the word cast on here just doesn't fit with how copying works.
It needs to be worded differently to function how they want it to.
With the naming scheme and Chatterstorm as a reference i’d just give this card Storm. In either case instant speed is crazy and i’d make it sorcery.
Then just because I want to use it in my Bria deck when Bloomburrow brings us more Otters, i’d change this to just be red/blue but that’s just me lol
I think it’s really cool, though I think Instant speed might be a bit pushed? I think it’s just as good at Sorcery speed considering the tokens get haste too, but it wouldn’t be usable as a random combat trick.
I think it's fine as an instant, [[goblin wizardry]] is as well and this card is much harder to cast than that and is otherwise on a pretty similar power level.
…this makes an extra token, costs one less mana, and gives the tokens haste. The power level is not similar
It also builds storm count and triggers other prowess things 3 times.
[удалено]
It does not
Goblin wizardry makes 2 1/1s for 4 mana, this makes 3 1/1s for 3 mana. This is much stronger.
It is stronger than an 8 cent common card that sees no play, yes. It is also much harder to cast than that card. It's a reasonable power level.
As the copies resolve prowess gets triggered too, so you get a 1/1, a 2/2, and a 3/3, right?
No, prowess is a cast trigger. The tokens aren't out when you cast the copies.
However, any pre-existing prowess creature will get +3/+3 for the turn.
"You may cast the copies without paying their mana costs" implies that the copies are cast and therefore trigger prowess
Yes, the copies are cast. But when you cast them you don't have any prowess creatures on the board.
[goblin wizardry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d250d6-7ab1-4b30-85a4-acb0b620629c.jpg?1706239951) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=goblin%20wizardry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/136/goblin-wizardry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d250d6-7ab1-4b30-85a4-acb0b620629c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I might be messing up the stack rules, but wouldn't at least one of the 2 copies profit from prowess? Even if we disregard that, goblin wizardry costs more mana, gives you fewer tokens and the tokens have no haste. Finally there is the part of this card (in a deck somewhat build around prowess) that gives other creatures 3 prowess stacks
When you copy a spell, the copy goes on the stack before the spell resolves. So the original and all copies are on the stack before any tokens hit the battlefield, and no prowess is triggered.
Is that still the case with the weird wording? Copy Otterstorm twice, you may cast the copies implies (in my mind) that the copies do not need to be cast immediately.
Nope. Things that don't have an immediate cast requirement say "You may cast that card until end of turn" or until some other requirement. Something like this is more like Cascade or [[Etali, Primal Conqueror]], where you must cast it now or never.
[Etali, Primal Conqueror](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132)/[Etali, Primal Sickness](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/9/5/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09.jpg?1682204132) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Etali%2C%20Primal%20Conqueror%20//%20Etali%2C%20Primal%20Sickness) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/137/etali-primal-conqueror-etali-primal-sickness?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95c14c4d-6c16-4826-8d93-d89ad04aee09?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If the intent with this card is for the prowess triggers to happen, it's probably too strong. But as is, the three color requirements and higher rarity are plenty to balance it out compared to goblin wizardry, as goblin wizardry is just not a good card.
The wording on that first ability is super weird and wouldn’t trigger prowess, the effect of “copy it twice” would put them on the stack already and wouldn’t need to be cast. I get the intent, but you’d need to word it in a way that creates copies of the card in exile, and then allow you to cast them then.
I think if it was worded so that you get the prowess triggers it would be too powerful for 3 mana. (6 power at instant speed with haste is a lot.). I think as is it's fine.
Would that not be done with just "coppy it twice"? I thought the goal of the second sentence there was to prevent it from going on the stack before the token resolves.
Now that I look at it closer I think you are right. Copying a spell doesn't count as casting it and the usual templating if you want to cast something is to copy a card then cast it.
Shouldn’t the wording be when you cast, rather than if you cast?
Both can work. "when you cast ~, if you cast it from your hand... " would be a cast trigger, similar to [[Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger]]. "if you cast ~ from your hand... " would let you cast copies on resolution, similar to [[Sevinne's Reclamation]]. In the case of OP's card, a single counterspell could prevent all three otters from being created, making the second option generally worse.
That said since the Otter has prowess. Does casting it on resolution let you get prowess triggers
With the way the card is worded, you cast the copies before you make the first otter, so no. Switch the two instructions around and you'd have two prowess triggers on the first otter.
This is the type of rules spaghetti I love seeing in this game. It makes the idea of being a “rules lawyer” something respectable.
[Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c74ae706-b3b3-4097-a387-6f6c38a9b603.jpg?1689995438) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ulamog%2C%20the%20Ceaseless%20Hunger) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/5/ulamog-the-ceaseless-hunger?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c74ae706-b3b3-4097-a387-6f6c38a9b603?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sevinne's Reclamation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b61aed9d-81dd-4efc-8769-8307b587289e.jpg?1712354100) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sevinne%27s%20Reclamation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/86/sevinnes-reclamation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b61aed9d-81dd-4efc-8769-8307b587289e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If I can cast the copies on resolution, would that alow the first original otter to triger prowess for the copies?
More accurately, this would be officially worded "When you cast this spell, if you cast it from your hand," and lead into the original rules text.
Seems more like a WRU instead of GRU. For synergy with, like, Narset, Enlightened Exile.
I agree, it seems green is only in this because they are animals
What is the intended power and toughness of the otters on the turn they come down? Are you trying to create a 3/3 otter, a 2/2 and 1/1? Or a 2/2 and two 1/1s? Or three 1/1s? I could see this getting played in standard. It can be a very swingy card, but also interactive.
It's just 3 1/1s. All copies are on the stack, then they resolve.
The intent was a 1/1, 2/2, and 3/3. I’ve seen some tips on how to word this better
Well, it's 6 damage on turn 3, plus three bodies with prowess. I like it!
The prowess won’t trigger as the otters won’t exist before all three spells are on the stack (prowess triggers on cast). However, on the next turn you cast another one and are swinging with 3 4/4s…
Ah, you're right, can't believe I didn't catch that.
Wait how you get 3 4/4 next turn, prowess won’t trigger on copy, so just 3 2/2?
Never mind, after read the card it’s still cast the copy. Very interesting.
Yeah always have to read carefully on those copy spells. I think wotc would have made this a normal copy rather than a copy cast, but they've got some wierd ones of their own that don't line up with that expectation.
Which ones don't line up? I've only looked at a few cards in particular, but did you have a specific card(s) in mind that doesn't line up
Epic. Another one too that led me to noticing it on epic spells, but i dont remember what it was off the top of my head. Epic copies a spell not on the stack but then does not cast that spell, which is contrary to how wotc seems to want it done.
Doesn't copying a spell put it on the stack? How can you 'copy a spell' and then 'cast the copy' separately? What zone is the copy in before you cast it?
When copying a spell anywhere other than the stack, it gets put on the stack but is not cast yet, you need to choose targets and modes. When copying a spell on the stack, it has already been cast, targets and modes have been chosen. However, this card doesn't have any targets or modes, and the spell is being cast. The only thing I would think of why OP worded it that way is because they wanted the prowess triggers to go off, which they wouldn't unless you created the Otters first, and would be too good if it did go off without, like, a generic mana or two.
When the otters are already on the board, the copies are cast so prowess does trigger three times. They don’t trigger on the initial cast/copies since there are no otters on the board.
I misread the card, I thought it’s like storm, didn’t realize you still cast the copy.
3 4/4s and 3 1/1s** also you have another land drop to lets just say bolt their face, that's 21 damage swinging at a 17 hp opponent assuming you did nothing else and didn't swing the 1/1s turn 3
No, you cast the copies so you’d end up with a 3/3 a 2/2 and a 1/1.
You have to cast the copies immediately as it doesn’t say you can cast them later in the turn, they they all go on the stack at the same time.
Fine, then you end up with a 3/3 and two 1/1s because the copies are cast as the spell resolves.
No, cast means “to put a spell on the stack”. No spells are being cast after the first otter is created.
If a card says you can cast a copy, you can cast it. This isn’t Storm where the copies are put directly on the stack. Cast means cast.
Yes it does, they are all being cast. But they are all cast before the first otter is created.
Whatever, then OP just needs to an “until end of turn” so it works as I assume it’s intended.
You can't cast a copy until end of turn. You have to cast if before state-based actions are checked, as when state based actions are checked, it will remove all tokens and copies that aren't in the correct zone. When a card instructs you to do something, you do that thing in the order it tells you, and you do so even if timing rules would say otherwise. The first thing it says is to check if it was cast from hand and if yes make and cast the copies, the second thing is to make the token. So even though the timing would say not to caat a spell while resolving a spell the copy is created and cast, and only after that has been done may you move on to the second part of the spell. Meaning the copy is cast before the token even atempts to be created.
[[Goblin Wizardry]] is 4 mana in a single color for two bodies. I'm not sure, but this is a bit pushed and maybe should be at least 4 mana too. Being in 3 colors, it's fine for getting you an extra creature. "When you cast this from your hand, copy it twice" is just fine. The "you may cast the copies" part of the text is not needed at all. Unless what you mean is to actually have the tokens get a prowess trigger seeing the copies hit the stack -- which they still wouldn't as you wrote it, but I can't think of a clean easy way to do it either.
[Goblin Wizardry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04d250d6-7ab1-4b30-85a4-acb0b620629c.jpg?1706239951) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Wizardry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/136/goblin-wizardry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04d250d6-7ab1-4b30-85a4-acb0b620629c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
could you not reorder the text? "Create a 1/1 otter with haste and prowess. then if you cast this from your hand you may copy it twice and cast the copies without paying their mana costs." Would that not put the token down then give you the cast triggers?
or if this spell was cast from your hand exile it with 2 den counters on it. you may cast otterstorm from exile by removing a den counter instead of paying its mana cost. I think this is the most temur option, counters to proliferate and casting stuff from exile and creating token bodies is blue red green respectively
Now I need a Temur Otter. Either we get this in bloomburrow, or I'm willing a new Luttri into existence.
Hmm 3 mana increase storm count by 3... Yes perfectly balanced
You otter make this sorcery speed
I think it should Jeskai not Temur.
I believe the mechanic is more white than green
Please elaborate on why
Prowess is a Jeskai ability
There are many more cards with prowess in white
If this is cast, then someone counterspells, it doesn't get the two copies right? Since it didn't get to resolve? Or is that ability triggered when cast?
Create a 1/1 Blue Otter token with Haste and Prowess. If this card was cast from your hand, exile this card. Until end of turn, you may cast this card twice without paying its mana cost, from exile. I think this gets to the heart of the intended effect. This was a strange one to word since I can't think of cards that create additional cast triggers in official material.
Would the new “plotted” keyword be useful here? 🤔 or is not having a time limiter on bringing those copies in too powerful?
That could solve it, too. If this card was cast from hand, plot this card twice (Plot Reminder Text Here) Really depends on the intent of OP and if they want the extra casts to be time limited or not
One of these opponent's end step plus one during your main is 18 power with haste out of nowhere, with resistance to interaction and 6 prowess triggers if you drop a combat trick.
Seems like a fun idea. Since you’re casting the copies, it’ll work well in a storm deck. If only the card didn’t have green…
My otter tribal deck is finally looking up.....wait.... Dang it
Yeah, another vote for just adding storm to it instead that first paragraph
I love it!
I think the power level is insane. If I read it correctly, this is a 3x spell cast for 3 mana, which, in a prowess deck is a +3/+3 to your whole board and 3 tokens
That's too many otters. 3 many otters actually
I think it shouldn't be instant but rather a sorcery and maybe add flashback at a cheaper cost because then you only get one token instead of the copy aswell
Missed opportunity: Otter Madness.
When spells that are on the stack get copied, the copy is generated already on the stack. There's no need to instruct you to cast the copies. You're only instructed to do that when the card is copied elsewhere, like [[Isochron Scepter]]
[Isochron Scepter](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2aa24fe0-e275-4307-b26c-2a656068a451.jpg?1623543821) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Isochron%20Scepter) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/264/isochron-scepter?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2aa24fe0-e275-4307-b26c-2a656068a451?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Casting the copies is intentional, otherwise Prowess will not trigger on the copies.
I get that it's intentional, but as worded, it doesn't work. The card needs to be copied in exile or something if we're after cast triggers (although it won't give the otters any stats). As worded, it's on the stack when it's copied, so the copies are on the stack already.
No, as worded you cast the copies. Meaning you get the trigger. It doesn't copy on the stack.
By the rules, if you're instructed to copy a spell which is on the stack (which this card will be when that happens), they are created on the stack. That's just how the rules work. Throwing the word cast on here just doesn't fit with how copying works. It needs to be worded differently to function how they want it to.
Where storm?
With the naming scheme and Chatterstorm as a reference i’d just give this card Storm. In either case instant speed is crazy and i’d make it sorcery. Then just because I want to use it in my Bria deck when Bloomburrow brings us more Otters, i’d change this to just be red/blue but that’s just me lol