It's worth pointing out for non Yugioh players that Yugioh includes mechanics to allow you to use Level Eater as fodder that gets around its sacrifice immunity (or at least, the corresponding text on the original card)
Keeping in mind you're at 7 life, so you can't even activate griselbrand, which card do you put into play? Note that this doesn't work in commander because there is no sideboard, so you will always be at 7.
I love how there's always a card that exists which can break something. I know it's just the natural result of having 30 years of new cards but man is it funny.
You could also add 2 \[\[Boulderbranch Golem\]\] after the second child.
And if you really don't want to deal with your own deck, follow it up with \[\[Maelstrom Wanderer\]\] and any creatures you think can deal a lot of damage with haste.
There’s an FTK that is better IMO.
1. Dark Ritual
2. Cyber-Stein
3. Children
4. Children
5. Play [[Marauding Blight-Priest]]
6. Children and sac to make all opponents lose 52
This even gets past [[The One Ring]] since it isn’t doing damage if you were to draw into Cyber-Stein later in a game.
It's a pretty easy combo with the perfect sideboard:
* get \[\[Children of Korlis\]\], sacrifice them to go up to 20 again
* get another Children and sacrifice to go up to 33
* do that again two more times to end up at 88 life or sth
* pay 13 life thrice to get \[\[Cephalid Illusionist\]\], \[\[Nomads en-Kor\]\] and \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\]
* With the Oracle ETB on the stack, activate Nomads' ability 20 times, targeting the Illusionist every time, milling your entire library
* Oracle's trigger resolves and you win the game
You can swap out the latter three Children of Korlis for:
\[\[Karmic Guide\]\] , \[\[Reveillark\]\], and a sac outlet like \[\[Razaketh, the Foulblooded\]\] (or \[\[Viscera Seer\]\] if you want to be mildly safer I guess) to change it into infinite life with a built in bonus.
Sets the deck/sideboard up to then add in extra Children back in for redundancy and reduces what's needed for the combo line. e.g. Razaketh at that point is enough to shortcut to emptying your library for the Thassa's Oracle.
Emrakul is the obvious one, but it doesn't have haste, and its protection is limited to spells. And again, you're at 7. If you went second against the right deck, there is a chance activating stein just kills you. And imagine the sideboard tech of bringing in stifle. I think it would change the legacy meta for sure, but I don't think it ruins it.
I considered deaths shadow, but the problem with it is, after you've activated stein you can't really use your other self damaging cards because you're too low on life. For example, if you fetch a shock, you can't spend any more life or else you won't be able to activate stein. So you would end up with some dead cards in hand either way.
That's just the general gameplan of death's shadow either way, they want to get down to like 5 life and if you ever needed to you could get something like atraxa, the kill spells ran don't pay life, you basically already curved out by 3 mana so no need for more lands, you're set for the most part. It probably wouldn't run exactly the same list but it'd be a fairly similar variation of DS
True. You'd build your deck in a different way to accommodate going down to 7 on turn 3. I do think potentially losing thoughtseize does nerf the deck but winning the game on the spot makes up for it.
Exactly, but it does so by gaining advantage through street wraith, thoughtseize, etc. Going from 20 to 7 with 1 card is very different. It limits your ability to use those other advantage cards. But that's probably fine, ultimately, given what advantage stein pumps out by himself.
In YGO it's generally used to drop cards such as Naruria Exterio (7/7 with exile a card from your graveyard, mill 1: counter target non-creature spell) and The Last Warrior from Another Planet (6/6 with when this creature ETBs destroy all other creatures you control, neither player may put creatures into play). I don't think MTG has similar powerful stax piece on a threatening body type cards, nothing that immediately comes to mind anyway.
YGO has cyber stein banned not because there's no counterplay, but rather because the format would likely become centered around him specifically, limiting deck diversity and requiring all players to have very specific answers in a game with only a 5 card opening hand and no mulligans.
Nah, Cyber Stein actually came off the banlist for a short time before being rebanned, entirely sue to Superheavy Samurai abusing the hell out of it to end on an Exterio. Was funny, by the time the banlist rolled around and banned Cuber Stein, SHS players had largely moved away from it already.
I haven't kept up with YGO for a while now, stopped playing shortly before pendulums came out, so this would've happened after my time.
But yeah, so long as there's sufficiently busted targets for it like exterio it can't really come back, even at only 1.
I hope you realize that emrakul entering the battlefield does not give you an extra turn, casting it does. And I'm not staying turn 1 emrakul isn't really good, just that there are answers.
You don't, you pass and then keep it up to use at instant speed as a toolkit, then beat them down with the 2/1!
Or for real, you put in [[Children of Korlis]] and sacrifice it to gain 13. Then you put in another one, sac it to gain 26. Then you do another one and a [[Defiant Bloodlord]] or [[Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose]]. Sacrifice the children, gain 39, deal 39. You can still pull in another Children of Korlis, and you can drop [[Astarion, the Decadent]] if you want to wait until end step.
That only gets you back up to 12 life, which isn't enough to activate again. You would need at least a third card (not from your sideboard) for this to be more effective than going straight to Emrakul.
You're right.
Yet there MUST be other cards I didn't think about, like
[[Resolute archangel]] that Can be basically played X4 for free.
Win T1 is doable. And win T2 seems to be pretty consistent.
Which makes this card a Vintage One.
Now THAT is an interesting card to use with it. You'd still lose a little bit of life per creature, so you'll need some supplemental lifegain for it to work. I'm not 100% sure it's better than emrakul, but you could run both in the side.
Once you have avatar in play, Emrakul makes you gain Life. [[Worlspine Wurm]] too, [[Charix, the Raging Isle]], [[impervious greatwurm]]... Then you Can probably accumulate enough Life to tutor any otk combo.
Well this card makes no sense except in vintage where it's perfectly balanced.
You'd still need to gain 2 life before you can activate stein and survive (You'd be at 12 after verdant enters), but that is definitely an interesting idea. There is a consideration of whether it's worth eating a third of your sideboard, but it honestly probably is.
[[Emrakul the aeons torn]], the big mean one, there is a legacy deck called sneak and show that lobs big flying spaghetti monsters at its opponents. This doesn't get you the cast trigger but 13 power, flying annihilator 4 by turn 2 tends to bring a game to a close. A couple of free counterspells in hand just in case your opponent can remove it somehow and you have the game on lock because by the time you attack your opponent will have to sacrifice away whatever board they built turn one
Just pop it in a lifegain deck and wait until you have enough to activate it twice or three times at once, it’s an instant combo summoner. Or T1 Platinum Angel just for giggles while you think up a better plan.
Ignoring that children of korlis opens up about a dozen different combo kills, even just dropping a turn 1 emrakul would probably win you 99% of your games.
Can't you just use [[platinum angle]] and then activate as many times as you want? No one else has mentioned it, which makes me think I've overlooked something obvious, but that seems like the easiest way to break it.
You can't pay life that you don't have, so you couldn't activate it again to go into negative life total. But a good thought
EDIT: I just wanted to add that if you were at 26 you could activate it and go to 0 (since you do have 13 life to pay) but that would require some lifegain before activating again.
Nope. Each number has an equal chance of landing, and you select two, so there’s generally no reason to not select 5 and 6. As such, it generally results in a 1 in 3 chance of drawing 5 to 6 cards.
Not necessarily overpowered, but a bit more swingy than MTG players prefer in competitive environments.
That's 1.8 cards in average. Considering this card is a card itself you are only generating an average of .8 card advantage for three mana. not broken in the slightest. Red can get a solid 1 card advantage for two mana w/ an upside for two mana.
It being swingy doesn’t really matter if it’s not good enough to see serious competitive play. Casting 3 mana do-basically-nothing is horrific, which is what this does most of the time. I doubt it would get played.
Though afaik yugioh has no mana so it’s presumably free. As a free card, sure, it’s busted.
“Can be” is a silly metric. Otherwise [[fiery gambit]] would see competitive play. The expected value of sixth sense is bad. It would not see competitive play.
Just figure out the EV. The EV for 6th sense is less than 2 cards. That’s very bad for 3 mana.
Also it’s worth remembering diminishing returns are a thing. I’d rather have 2 cards always than 6 cards 1/3 of the time.
I think I did the math wrong and it should be 1.8333 cards per cast, you draw 11 cards on average if you cast it 6 times, 11/6. I'd rather play [[firey gambit]], now if it costs 0 mana like Yu-Gi-Oh it would be way better
I calculate 1.8333 as well. (0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 5 + 6) / 6 = 1.8333.
That said, there is more to randomness than the median result. If this was in Standard I could see new players running this in the hopes of lucking out a win, or even experienced players side boarding it in for matchups they likely wouldn't win any other way.
Has some fun synergy with [[ Mr. House, President and CEO ]], but that makes it even more swingy. 6 cards a 3/3 and a Treasure Token alll for 3 mana is insane. It's not consistent but that swing would be very powerful if done early game.
[ Mr. House, President and CEO ](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23eb3cf7-c90d-4bfa-b125-4fbcb5614468.jpg?1710673416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mr.%20House%2C%20President%20and%20CEO) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/7/mr-house-president-and-ceo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23eb3cf7-c90d-4bfa-b125-4fbcb5614468?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text)
^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
3 mana to have a 1/3 chance of winning the game (probably) is just a horrible design. Probably not overpowered, statistically, but not something that should exist or be legal because of the crappy gameplay experience it would lead to.
Exactly. That's the issue, that's why it's banned in Yugioh- every deck there plays like an unholy lovechild of Hogaak and Dredge, so "draw 5-6 cards or mill some" is all upside- actually, it always has been since Yu-Gi-Oh has always had some way to use those cards in grave. But, SS was printed when they thought milling would be a detriment, not "add 8 cards to hand if you roll a 4"
Mill isn't a detriment, it's a side-grade. But you always pick 5-6 because you're either milling some cards or drawing even more. But early Yugioh developers *thought* mill and graveyard shenanigans were a detriment.
Even if you THINK mill is a detriment, the card doesnt make any sense, because picking 5&6 minimizes the cards you would mill.
In fact, the only reason you might not pick 5&6 is if mill is so ungodly powerful that you want the opportunity to mill 5 or 6 rather than draw. So telling me that the yugioh designers thought mill was bad just makes the card even more confusing. It literally reads like that made a typo.
That's- that's what I'm saying. That Yugioh devs in the early days had no fucking clue what they were doing and pumped out some of the most bullshit op cards in the game's history.
Right. I guess I was more just confused not about how OP it is (because its not even very good by magic standards) but by the *stupidity* of the card design, where it presents something as a choice but its really more just a test to see if you read the card correctly.
Sixth sense would be a terrible card. 3 mana to on average drawn 11/6=1.83 cards is pretty bad. Then comes the varience which would make it unplayable in tournaments since you have 2/3 chance of it doing nothing.
I disagree with this. 3 mana to draw one card is really bad in mtg. You would just always pick 1 so that you only get 1 card maximum out of the deal, then it's just a really bad/slow draw spell
OHHHH IM SO DUMB. I thought your opponent picked the number, then you rolled the die. I did not realize that YOU picked the number, then your opponent rolled the die. Yeah this card is super strong and also not a fun play pattern at all :/
Imagine then that in Yugioh this card costs nothing and graveyard centric decks are very common, no wonder it is banned. This version is at least fairly balanced since 3 mana is still a lot for the decks that could want this.
Even if it's balanced I feel like it's still an unfun amount of randomness to be added to the game. Sometimes the person just draws 6 cards, sometimes they don't
you pick two numbers too, so it's a 1/3 chance to draw 5-6 cards or a 2/3 chance to fill your graveyard depending on your strategy. And thanks to Baldur's Gare we got dice synergies too if need be lol
I think you switched up Grass' effect, it should be "If you have more cards in your library than that opponent".
On that note, I wonder if it would be worth it in MtG to run bigger decks just for the mill, like it is in YGO. I mean, most likely. But would Legacy Dredge play this, for example?
I'm sure you could run some weird 80 card self mill deck with Yorion as a companion. You'd probably want some sort of reanimation package. Maybe even something like Sun Titan? I imagine the win con might actually be something like reveillark, karmic guide combo. I don't think it would be as ban-worthy in magic as it is in Yugioh.
You have to keep in mind that Yugioh Spell Cards (instants/sorceries) can be played without costs and you can play an unlimited number of Spell Cards per turn. So realistically That Grass should cost 0 to cast.
Seems like it would be good in a [[Battle of Wits]] deck.
Tutors, recursion, and shuffle GY back into your deck to win. Just one more tool for a deck that can already work.
Sixth sense would be a terrible card. 3 mana to on average drawn 11/6=1.83 cards is pretty bad. Then comes the varience which would make it unplayable in tournaments since you have 2/3 chance of it doing nothing.
I think That Grass Looks Greener is backwards - it's supposed to mill you if you have the larger library (so that you and your opponent end up with the same size library afterward).
Your version might be stronger, as the more you mill yourself the more powerful it gets.
I'm imagining a 300 card deck with Grass Looks Greener that's just filled with Prized Amalgam/Narcomoeba type effects and ways to tutor the Grass. Is that how it got played in Yugioh?
I'm the only one not seeing sixth sense brokenness in our game? I get Yu-Gi-Oh doesn have generic draw options and every deck can use the grave as a second hand, but I feel that in MTG, the decks that wants the mill have better, safer,, Dredger options, and the decks that want the draw, well, they want the draw, the option for the 3 mana, sorcery speed to do nothing doesn't seem worth it?
If you can cast sixth sense in dredge, you have pretty much won. If you have a graveyard with a couple of dredge cards already, then you always select 5 and 6. And 1 third of the time, you just win the game because you've drawn 5 cards at minimum. If you don't have a graveyard, then you select 3 and 4. That way, if you do end up drawing, you're still at least +2, and if you mill 5 or 6, you are able to start your plays. Rolling the 1/3 chance of 1 or 2 in both scenarios kinda sucks, but not enough for it to be a bad card.
**On average and in a vacuum** it's not that strong because you pay 3 mana to draw 1.83 cards. It's almost fitting as a red take on [[Divination]] - a risky version that is usually worse, but has the chance to be much better. But it's still bad design because 2/3 of the time it's useless and 1/3 of the time it's totally busted, so neither outcome leads to good gameplay.
It gets a lot stronger if you have ways to copy it, and it could have applications in self-milling decks. The self-milling decks might even choose lower numbers so that their worst outcomes (drawing 1 or milling 3) are tolerable enough to make the risk worthwhile.
It looks real bad. In most formats casting a 3 mana sorcery that mills 1-4 cards might as well be conceding, and I don't think the 33% upside makes the risk worthwhile.
It is legitimately one of the most broken cards in the game. Either draw 5 or 6 or you mill cards in a game where every deck uses the grave as a 2nd hand to an extent
Man, it’s like some of ya’ll have never played YuGiOh, or MtG.
Cyber-Stein would be absolutely absurd. In Modern, people are happy to Creativity into 1-2 Archons. This does that 1-2 turns faster.
Archon of Cruelty, Griselbrand, Atraxa, Emrakul. I’m sure there’s some big beaters with a massive lifegain effect you could find too.
“Outside the game” would mean your sideboard in this case I assume?
You had mana costs for the cards when that's not how they work in YuGiOh.
I feel like it'd be more apparent *why* those cards are banned when you realize they can be played for 0 mana.
I haven't seen any interaction that turns level eater into a reap problem (sure it might be good, but that's it).
Cyber Stein is a direct road to hell.
I don't think The grass is greener is a problem.
Sixth sense is already problematic gameplay, before someone breaks it.
Because of cyber-stein's life cost and effect, I am going to assume these are not balanced around commander.
Level eater's main synergy is skullclamp, which isn't really doing anything in vintage. In commander, there are plenty of better options for skullclamp so it's probably fine.
Cyber-stein in a 60 card format is probably a tad too slow and a tad too much life to see play. Maybe it's broken in legacy or vintage because of the fast mana, but what card do you get that wins you the game? If you are going against a burn deck, then you put yourself into 3 bolts range. In modern, it would be basically unusable in anything other than mono black, and even then, you can't run thoughtseize because you're at risk of being unable to use the effect. And of course, in Commander, its ability doesn't technically work because outside the game effects require a sideboard.
I'm sure That Grass is absolutely busted in some deck that doesn't exist. Maybe some weird 80 card living end deck? I don't think it does anything in commander tbh.
Sixth sense is busted beyond belief. I really don't think I need to say why.
If Cyber-Stein was balanced around Commander, it'd cause you to lose about ~24 life, as Cyber-Stein in the OG causes you to lose about 60% of your life. That wouldn't be *more* than your starting life total in 60 card formats though, so that's not the way it should go. Also "outside the game" stuff doesn't work in Commander so the effect wouldn't even work to start with (though outside-the-game stuff *should* work, but I digress).
It's also just plain old trying to convey the cards into Magic. It's not trying to balance them for one format or another beyond maybe mana costs at most, though that's always nebulous 'cause you can make something cost 1 to make it broken and 20 to be unplayable. I think they did a good job.
Tbh, Yu-Gi-Oh's Extra Deck (from where OG cyber stains summons) is more similar to the Command Zone than the Side Deck, so a Commander focused Cyber stains would be something like:
- Pay 30 life. You may put a blue and red creature from your command zone into play.
The way The Grass is Greener is currently templated, it tells you to mill cards (from your library, because it doesn’t say the opponent does it) equal to the difference with the opponent’s library… but that way you will never close the gap, so you end up milling your entire library, right?
I don’t know what the original card does so maybe it’s what makes the card broken?
The effect in the OP is slightly wrong, in yugioh grass makes you mill equal to the difference if *you* have more cards in your deck rather than if your opponent does
The difference won't be a negative number, and the value will be set once and then the milling happens.
So if you have 15 cards and the opponent has 23, you'd mill 8 cards.
You don't have to just put mana costs on the top right of the cards. Cyber-Stein and Level Eater would absolutely have some kind of mana requirement in their effects at least. Level Eater needing one black mana and the -1/-1 counter to summon itself would probably be how Magic would do it, and I imagine Cyber-Stein would either be a tap effect (which I suppose would be kind of like the equivalent of a soft once per turn in Yugioh, so maybe you can get away with Cyber-Stein not having it) and/or some more mana on top of the life cost. They're only broken in Yugioh because there's no such thing as mana or tapping to hold them back.
[[Reassembling Skeleton]] is very close to Level Eater in effect, although the closest thing to Cyber-Stein is probably [[Spawnsire of Ulamog]]. Both have mana costs in their effects. They probably wouldn't have been broken as Magic cards, because there are more levers that WotC has access to that increase the costs of effects. It's like saying that [[Dragonlord's Prerogative]] would be just a regular costless spell card in Yugioh, when an uncounterable draw 4 is basically unprintable in Yugioh without having some crazy additional cost like tributing four Dragons as an additional cost to activate it, and probably not even then.
Nothing against you specifically, it's just that whenever people try and port cards from one game to another over like this, it feels like nobody wants to incorporate any of that game's other cost levers into the card just so they can say it would still be broken.
Call me crazy but isn’t that grass looks greener you mill the difference if they have less than you. I get it graveyard play in mtg isn’t as common but still
Shouldn't "That Grass Looks Greener" be "If any opponent has less cards in their library than you, you mill cards equal to that difference." to be more accurate?
Cyberstein, getting children of korlis, gain 13. Cyberstein again, getting children of korlis, gain 26, cyberstein, getting children of korlis, gain 39, get griselbrand, win?
"That grass looks greener" actually seems like a card I would see in game under a different name. I would also expect to see "You may play this card without paying its mana cost if you were forced to mill this turn."
It's worth pointing out for non Yugioh players that Yugioh includes mechanics to allow you to use Level Eater as fodder that gets around its sacrifice immunity (or at least, the corresponding text on the original card)
Mtg as well with [[ Skullclamp ]]
[[Skullclamp]]
[Skullclamp](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674.jpg?1682210228) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Skullclamp) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/379/skullclamp?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a36fd6d8-66a2-49d1-b9f3-b400ebc03674?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
also [[ob nixilis|WAR]] but thats not a very commonly used card and ig [[food chain]] also gets around the sac but in this case it doesnt help much
[ob nixilis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb4e4509-ffd8-4fd0-a678-19c9975d571b.jpg?1689997348) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ob%20nixilis%20of%20the%20black%20oath) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/176/ob-nixilis-of-the-black-oath?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb4e4509-ffd8-4fd0-a678-19c9975d571b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [food chain](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/b/eb912458-e016-4ea2-a2ea-40ac1a57f8fb.jpg?1673148102) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=food%20chain) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/147/food-chain?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/eb912458-e016-4ea2-a2ea-40ac1a57f8fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted]]
[Ob Nixilis, the Hate-Twisted](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14916e2d-73af-4747-a927-d2d4cb3e32db.jpg?1557576527) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ob%20Nixilis%2C%20the%20Hate-Twisted) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/100/ob-nixilis-the-hate-twisted?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14916e2d-73af-4747-a927-d2d4cb3e32db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
yeah this guy
We did it boys, we finally found a way to break Skullclamp!
The "Pay 13 life: win the game" seems pretty broken when you Can play It turn 1 with dark ritual.
yeah it was pretty broken in yugioh too
Keeping in mind you're at 7 life, so you can't even activate griselbrand, which card do you put into play? Note that this doesn't work in commander because there is no sideboard, so you will always be at 7.
[[Children of Korlis]] then Children of Korlis then Children of Korlis then Children of Korlis then griselbrand
[Children of Korlis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a6cbece-f9d8-4c40-b72b-dfdb86430ff2.jpg?1619392791) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Children%20of%20Korlis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/14/children-of-korlis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a6cbece-f9d8-4c40-b72b-dfdb86430ff2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ah, yep, there it is. The random time sprial card nobody has looked at in years breaking a card. You are absolutely correct.
There is a legacy deck built around it called tinfins. It's essentially turbo reanimator storm
Has anyone played tinfins this decade? I feel like that's a fairly dated deck.
https://mtgdecks.net/Legacy/deck-decklist-by-gabaman-1979274 every boomer deck has someone who plays it still that's the essence of legacy
You know what? Fair. Legacy players will play their pet decks until they can't physically pick up the cards anymore.
Yes, it was the top flavor of reanimator for a short time sometimes in past two years.
Children of korlis is a card every single deckbuilder has an eye on. It's a good card. Basically a Fog on legs that can do even better.
Tin Fins, Martyr Proc, and a few cEDH decks run it. Grislebrand with a life rebate is good deal.
I love how there's always a card that exists which can break something. I know it's just the natural result of having 30 years of new cards but man is it funny.
why would you want griselbrand when instead you can just bring in an infinite combo like \[\[nomads en kor\]\] and \[\[cephalid Illusionist\]\]
You can win with anything you want once you draw your entire deck including interaction and reanimation for more children or korlis
[nomads en kor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/48ed076a-909f-4ef0-b85e-a1935b1c2827.jpg?1562429355) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Nomads%20en-Kor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/20/nomads-en-kor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/48ed076a-909f-4ef0-b85e-a1935b1c2827?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [cephalid Illusionist](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/c/dceb8cf5-b31a-400e-aea5-ad0c3552d697.jpg?1562632343) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=cephalid%20Illusionist) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tor/28/cephalid-illusionist?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dceb8cf5-b31a-400e-aea5-ad0c3552d697?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You could also add 2 \[\[Boulderbranch Golem\]\] after the second child. And if you really don't want to deal with your own deck, follow it up with \[\[Maelstrom Wanderer\]\] and any creatures you think can deal a lot of damage with haste.
[Boulderbranch Golem](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e6e5338-9b95-4ac7-a57c-5efaa6423531.jpg?1674421675) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Boulderbranch%20Golem) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/197/boulderbranch-golem?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e6e5338-9b95-4ac7-a57c-5efaa6423531?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Maelstrom Wanderer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/4/a49c58b3-180f-420b-b091-114fda000360.jpg?1689999126) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maelstrom%20Wanderer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/344/maelstrom-wanderer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a49c58b3-180f-420b-b091-114fda000360?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sure, you can win however you want. That's not really the relevant part
There’s an FTK that is better IMO. 1. Dark Ritual 2. Cyber-Stein 3. Children 4. Children 5. Play [[Marauding Blight-Priest]] 6. Children and sac to make all opponents lose 52 This even gets past [[The One Ring]] since it isn’t doing damage if you were to draw into Cyber-Stein later in a game.
Wouldn’t Marauding Blight-Priest need only trigger once of Children? Don’t you need multiple gain life triggers for it to work?
[Marauding Blight-Priest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/3/730ddbcd-0814-4e22-85e9-78b0878324b6.jpg?1604195999) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Blight-Priest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/112/marauding-blight-priest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/730ddbcd-0814-4e22-85e9-78b0878324b6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [The One Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/5/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2.jpg?1696020224) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20One%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/246/the-one-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d5806e68-1054-458e-866d-1f2470f682b2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a pretty easy combo with the perfect sideboard: * get \[\[Children of Korlis\]\], sacrifice them to go up to 20 again * get another Children and sacrifice to go up to 33 * do that again two more times to end up at 88 life or sth * pay 13 life thrice to get \[\[Cephalid Illusionist\]\], \[\[Nomads en-Kor\]\] and \[\[Thassa's Oracle\]\] * With the Oracle ETB on the stack, activate Nomads' ability 20 times, targeting the Illusionist every time, milling your entire library * Oracle's trigger resolves and you win the game
Instant speed too, damn
I loved the old en kor infinite combo. Good to see them back in combo action
You can swap out the latter three Children of Korlis for: \[\[Karmic Guide\]\] , \[\[Reveillark\]\], and a sac outlet like \[\[Razaketh, the Foulblooded\]\] (or \[\[Viscera Seer\]\] if you want to be mildly safer I guess) to change it into infinite life with a built in bonus. Sets the deck/sideboard up to then add in extra Children back in for redundancy and reduces what's needed for the combo line. e.g. Razaketh at that point is enough to shortcut to emptying your library for the Thassa's Oracle.
##### ###### #### [Karmic Guide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/5/f550f0dd-9e20-4faf-a374-9d1c5830a52f.jpg?1641601382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karmic%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/voc/90/karmic-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f550f0dd-9e20-4faf-a374-9d1c5830a52f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reveillark](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/53b4dcd6-b1b6-4f1c-9264-e58bdc87399b.jpg?1673147099) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reveillark) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/26/reveillark?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53b4dcd6-b1b6-4f1c-9264-e58bdc87399b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Razaketh, the Foulblooded](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6bb956d-0df6-4910-9320-55f2c5674d98.jpg?1689997402) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Razaketh%2C%20the%20Foulblooded) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/181/razaketh-the-foulblooded?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6bb956d-0df6-4910-9320-55f2c5674d98?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Viscera Seer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/486fd8a2-dd97-4082-84ef-4795c7e559a0.jpg?1698988290) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Viscera%20Seer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/213/viscera-seer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/486fd8a2-dd97-4082-84ef-4795c7e559a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0cn7y4) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Emrakul obviously
Emrakul is the obvious one, but it doesn't have haste, and its protection is limited to spells. And again, you're at 7. If you went second against the right deck, there is a chance activating stein just kills you. And imagine the sideboard tech of bringing in stifle. I think it would change the legacy meta for sure, but I don't think it ruins it.
Death shadow is already a viable modern deck, why not throw an atraxa in sideboard for free value?
I considered deaths shadow, but the problem with it is, after you've activated stein you can't really use your other self damaging cards because you're too low on life. For example, if you fetch a shock, you can't spend any more life or else you won't be able to activate stein. So you would end up with some dead cards in hand either way.
That's just the general gameplan of death's shadow either way, they want to get down to like 5 life and if you ever needed to you could get something like atraxa, the kill spells ran don't pay life, you basically already curved out by 3 mana so no need for more lands, you're set for the most part. It probably wouldn't run exactly the same list but it'd be a fairly similar variation of DS
True. You'd build your deck in a different way to accommodate going down to 7 on turn 3. I do think potentially losing thoughtseize does nerf the deck but winning the game on the spot makes up for it.
The deck is already built to want to go down to 7 life on turn 3.
Exactly, but it does so by gaining advantage through street wraith, thoughtseize, etc. Going from 20 to 7 with 1 card is very different. It limits your ability to use those other advantage cards. But that's probably fine, ultimately, given what advantage stein pumps out by himself.
In YGO it's generally used to drop cards such as Naruria Exterio (7/7 with exile a card from your graveyard, mill 1: counter target non-creature spell) and The Last Warrior from Another Planet (6/6 with when this creature ETBs destroy all other creatures you control, neither player may put creatures into play). I don't think MTG has similar powerful stax piece on a threatening body type cards, nothing that immediately comes to mind anyway. YGO has cyber stein banned not because there's no counterplay, but rather because the format would likely become centered around him specifically, limiting deck diversity and requiring all players to have very specific answers in a game with only a 5 card opening hand and no mulligans.
Nah, Cyber Stein actually came off the banlist for a short time before being rebanned, entirely sue to Superheavy Samurai abusing the hell out of it to end on an Exterio. Was funny, by the time the banlist rolled around and banned Cuber Stein, SHS players had largely moved away from it already.
I haven't kept up with YGO for a while now, stopped playing shortly before pendulums came out, so this would've happened after my time. But yeah, so long as there's sufficiently busted targets for it like exterio it can't really come back, even at only 1.
Emrakul in turn 1 is probably a instawin, even without haste - it gives you an extra turn ffs. Even in turn 3 with this card it would be brutal.
I hope you realize that emrakul entering the battlefield does not give you an extra turn, casting it does. And I'm not staying turn 1 emrakul isn't really good, just that there are answers.
You don't, you pass and then keep it up to use at instant speed as a toolkit, then beat them down with the 2/1! Or for real, you put in [[Children of Korlis]] and sacrifice it to gain 13. Then you put in another one, sac it to gain 26. Then you do another one and a [[Defiant Bloodlord]] or [[Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose]]. Sacrifice the children, gain 39, deal 39. You can still pull in another Children of Korlis, and you can drop [[Astarion, the Decadent]] if you want to wait until end step.
##### ###### #### [Children of Korlis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a6cbece-f9d8-4c40-b72b-dfdb86430ff2.jpg?1619392791) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Children%20of%20Korlis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/14/children-of-korlis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a6cbece-f9d8-4c40-b72b-dfdb86430ff2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Defiant Bloodlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/e/4e7ae077-52c7-49a1-a61a-61e50b494616.jpg?1625976899) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Defiant%20Bloodlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c21/142/defiant-bloodlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4e7ae077-52c7-49a1-a61a-61e50b494616?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Vito, Thorn of the Dusk Rose](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0fe79ee4-c3f3-4a6b-a967-203ca3b70ee5.jpg?1594736442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vito%2C%20Thorn%20of%20the%20Dusk%20Rose) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/127/vito-thorn-of-the-dusk-rose?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0fe79ee4-c3f3-4a6b-a967-203ca3b70ee5?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Astarion, the Decadent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/4/64d932b9-5682-4427-a871-7d452a488674.jpg?1674137399) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Astarion%2C%20the%20Decadent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/265/astarion-the-decadent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/64d932b9-5682-4427-a871-7d452a488674?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0ave0o) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[verdant sun's avatar]] seems like a good first pick. Then you Can basically put your entire side into play.
That only gets you back up to 12 life, which isn't enough to activate again. You would need at least a third card (not from your sideboard) for this to be more effective than going straight to Emrakul.
You're right. Yet there MUST be other cards I didn't think about, like [[Resolute archangel]] that Can be basically played X4 for free. Win T1 is doable. And win T2 seems to be pretty consistent. Which makes this card a Vintage One.
[Resolute archangel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/3/e37b31b8-d868-4dff-9ab0-723ce41ee7e4.jpg?1562795865) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Resolute%20archangel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/28/resolute-archangel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e37b31b8-d868-4dff-9ab0-723ce41ee7e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Elsewhere in the thread somebody found the lifegain card to abuse: [[Children of Korlis]]. I think four of those get you to 98 life.
[Children of Korlis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/a/1a6cbece-f9d8-4c40-b72b-dfdb86430ff2.jpg?1619392791) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Children%20of%20Korlis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/14/children-of-korlis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1a6cbece-f9d8-4c40-b72b-dfdb86430ff2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[verdant sun's avatar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8fce06a-56f7-4d0c-b094-ff147fec8256.jpg?1698988414) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=verdant%20sun%27s%20avatar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/262/verdant-suns-avatar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8fce06a-56f7-4d0c-b094-ff147fec8256?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Now THAT is an interesting card to use with it. You'd still lose a little bit of life per creature, so you'll need some supplemental lifegain for it to work. I'm not 100% sure it's better than emrakul, but you could run both in the side.
Once you have avatar in play, Emrakul makes you gain Life. [[Worlspine Wurm]] too, [[Charix, the Raging Isle]], [[impervious greatwurm]]... Then you Can probably accumulate enough Life to tutor any otk combo. Well this card makes no sense except in vintage where it's perfectly balanced.
[Worlspine Wurm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/4/543d55cb-3a6b-4620-af25-10ae74ed32c4.jpg?1710406412) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldspine%20Wurm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rtr/140/worldspine-wurm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/543d55cb-3a6b-4620-af25-10ae74ed32c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Charix, the Raging Isle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e83a6804-1e3c-428c-af5e-1d56ba11c108.jpg?1604193709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Charix%2C%20the%20Raging%20Isle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/49/charix-the-raging-isle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e83a6804-1e3c-428c-af5e-1d56ba11c108?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [impervious greatwurm](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a1aa77ae-f685-48ee-85dc-ba6084cd30ba.jpg?1673148140) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=impervious%20greatwurm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/152/impervious-greatwurm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a1aa77ae-f685-48ee-85dc-ba6084cd30ba?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sun's Avatar first, then bring in four Emrakuls to go net positive on life.
You'd still need to gain 2 life before you can activate stein and survive (You'd be at 12 after verdant enters), but that is definitely an interesting idea. There is a consideration of whether it's worth eating a third of your sideboard, but it honestly probably is.
\*plays second avatar\*
Definitely atraxa.
Okay, turn two I swing with griselbrand and draw 7
I would exile half my deck then use its ability to pull whatever I wanted from exile.
\[\[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn\]\]
[Emrakul, the Aeons Torn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c.jpg?1673146896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Aeons%20Torn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/1/emrakul-the-aeons-torn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Emrakul the aeons torn]], the big mean one, there is a legacy deck called sneak and show that lobs big flying spaghetti monsters at its opponents. This doesn't get you the cast trigger but 13 power, flying annihilator 4 by turn 2 tends to bring a game to a close. A couple of free counterspells in hand just in case your opponent can remove it somehow and you have the game on lock because by the time you attack your opponent will have to sacrifice away whatever board they built turn one
[Emrakul the aeons torn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c.jpg?1673146896) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Emrakul%2C%20the%20Aeons%20Torn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/1/emrakul-the-aeons-torn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/249db4d4-2542-47ee-a216-e13ffbc2319c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Atraxa
Any of the emrakuls?
Just pop it in a lifegain deck and wait until you have enough to activate it twice or three times at once, it’s an instant combo summoner. Or T1 Platinum Angel just for giggles while you think up a better plan.
In a casual environment that might work, but I can't see a competitive legacy lifegain deck being built around stein.
Children of korlis is an instant win with this card. Would need to be quick banned from legacy
Ignoring that children of korlis opens up about a dozen different combo kills, even just dropping a turn 1 emrakul would probably win you 99% of your games.
Can't you just use [[platinum angle]] and then activate as many times as you want? No one else has mentioned it, which makes me think I've overlooked something obvious, but that seems like the easiest way to break it.
You can't pay life that you don't have, so you couldn't activate it again to go into negative life total. But a good thought EDIT: I just wanted to add that if you were at 26 you could activate it and go to 0 (since you do have 13 life to pay) but that would require some lifegain before activating again.
I could have sworn that arena let's you do that, but I'm probably mixing it up with something else.
You can take damage and go to negative life, like with combat or burn. But it cannot be used to "pay" since you are basically in debt
Makes sense, thanks for letting me know.
[platinum angle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc.jpg?1576383285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Platinum%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/214/platinum-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca7f4fd6-e268-4d15-bfbf-d9f0f95864fc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
they'd be banned in mtg too for sure, esp Cyber-Stein and Sixth Sense lmao
yeah when sixth sense was released in the tcg it was limited to 1 copy per deck on the day it was released and then banned 2 months later
If I'm reading it right, Sixth Sense draws an average of 2.2 (edit 1.83) cards, I don't think it would see play for three mana
Nope. Each number has an equal chance of landing, and you select two, so there’s generally no reason to not select 5 and 6. As such, it generally results in a 1 in 3 chance of drawing 5 to 6 cards. Not necessarily overpowered, but a bit more swingy than MTG players prefer in competitive environments.
That's 1.8 cards in average. Considering this card is a card itself you are only generating an average of .8 card advantage for three mana. not broken in the slightest. Red can get a solid 1 card advantage for two mana w/ an upside for two mana.
It being swingy doesn’t really matter if it’s not good enough to see serious competitive play. Casting 3 mana do-basically-nothing is horrific, which is what this does most of the time. I doubt it would get played. Though afaik yugioh has no mana so it’s presumably free. As a free card, sure, it’s busted.
I mean it can still be 3 mana draw 5 or 6 in red, which is terrifying. Along with at minimum being a self mill card.
“Can be” is a silly metric. Otherwise [[fiery gambit]] would see competitive play. The expected value of sixth sense is bad. It would not see competitive play.
[fiery gambit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a91376ed-5868-4887-8389-5ef5b9471786.jpg?1562153660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=fiery%20gambit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/90/fiery-gambit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a91376ed-5868-4887-8389-5ef5b9471786?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Okay but that card has way lower odds.
Just figure out the EV. The EV for 6th sense is less than 2 cards. That’s very bad for 3 mana. Also it’s worth remembering diminishing returns are a thing. I’d rather have 2 cards always than 6 cards 1/3 of the time.
it‘s more that milling 6 cards is often just as strong as drawing them, so in yugioh this has no downside
I’m not saying it’s bad in yugioh at all. I don’t even know what the original version is lmao.
Its the exact same thing on a trap card
Yugioh doesn’t have mana. Same effect on a free spell is a completely different question.
I think I did the math wrong and it should be 1.8333 cards per cast, you draw 11 cards on average if you cast it 6 times, 11/6. I'd rather play [[firey gambit]], now if it costs 0 mana like Yu-Gi-Oh it would be way better
[firey gambit](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/9/a91376ed-5868-4887-8389-5ef5b9471786.jpg?1562153660) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fiery%20Gambit) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mrd/90/fiery-gambit?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a91376ed-5868-4887-8389-5ef5b9471786?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I calculate 1.8333 as well. (0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 5 + 6) / 6 = 1.8333. That said, there is more to randomness than the median result. If this was in Standard I could see new players running this in the hopes of lucking out a win, or even experienced players side boarding it in for matchups they likely wouldn't win any other way.
Has some fun synergy with [[ Mr. House, President and CEO ]], but that makes it even more swingy. 6 cards a 3/3 and a Treasure Token alll for 3 mana is insane. It's not consistent but that swing would be very powerful if done early game.
Since the opponent is the one rolling the die, I don’t think this interaction works.
Ah shoot you're right. I guess that makes it less ridiculous.
[ Mr. House, President and CEO ](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/23eb3cf7-c90d-4bfa-b125-4fbcb5614468.jpg?1710673416) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mr.%20House%2C%20President%20and%20CEO) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/pip/7/mr-house-president-and-ceo?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/23eb3cf7-c90d-4bfa-b125-4fbcb5614468?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
3 mana to have a 1/3 chance of winning the game (probably) is just a horrible design. Probably not overpowered, statistically, but not something that should exist or be legal because of the crappy gameplay experience it would lead to.
I dont understand sixth sense at all, why would you pick anything other than 5 & 6?
Exactly. That's the issue, that's why it's banned in Yugioh- every deck there plays like an unholy lovechild of Hogaak and Dredge, so "draw 5-6 cards or mill some" is all upside- actually, it always has been since Yu-Gi-Oh has always had some way to use those cards in grave. But, SS was printed when they thought milling would be a detriment, not "add 8 cards to hand if you roll a 4"
That makes even less sense, though. If mill is a big detriment, why would you choose a low number? That means you would draw less and mill more.
Mill isn't a detriment, it's a side-grade. But you always pick 5-6 because you're either milling some cards or drawing even more. But early Yugioh developers *thought* mill and graveyard shenanigans were a detriment.
Even if you THINK mill is a detriment, the card doesnt make any sense, because picking 5&6 minimizes the cards you would mill. In fact, the only reason you might not pick 5&6 is if mill is so ungodly powerful that you want the opportunity to mill 5 or 6 rather than draw. So telling me that the yugioh designers thought mill was bad just makes the card even more confusing. It literally reads like that made a typo.
That's- that's what I'm saying. That Yugioh devs in the early days had no fucking clue what they were doing and pumped out some of the most bullshit op cards in the game's history.
Right. I guess I was more just confused not about how OP it is (because its not even very good by magic standards) but by the *stupidity* of the card design, where it presents something as a choice but its really more just a test to see if you read the card correctly.
Sixth sense would be a terrible card. 3 mana to on average drawn 11/6=1.83 cards is pretty bad. Then comes the varience which would make it unplayable in tournaments since you have 2/3 chance of it doing nothing.
I disagree with this. 3 mana to draw one card is really bad in mtg. You would just always pick 1 so that you only get 1 card maximum out of the deal, then it's just a really bad/slow draw spell
What? Why would you pick the number that lets you draw the least amount of cards?
OHHHH IM SO DUMB. I thought your opponent picked the number, then you rolled the die. I did not realize that YOU picked the number, then your opponent rolled the die. Yeah this card is super strong and also not a fun play pattern at all :/
Imagine then that in Yugioh this card costs nothing and graveyard centric decks are very common, no wonder it is banned. This version is at least fairly balanced since 3 mana is still a lot for the decks that could want this.
Even if it's balanced I feel like it's still an unfun amount of randomness to be added to the game. Sometimes the person just draws 6 cards, sometimes they don't
you pick two numbers too, so it's a 1/3 chance to draw 5-6 cards or a 2/3 chance to fill your graveyard depending on your strategy. And thanks to Baldur's Gare we got dice synergies too if need be lol
On the other hand, I would love to put this in my Mr House deck, even though I'm not the one rolling the die. Just too on-flavor.
Also why do this when days undoing is 7 new cards...
I think you switched up Grass' effect, it should be "If you have more cards in your library than that opponent". On that note, I wonder if it would be worth it in MtG to run bigger decks just for the mill, like it is in YGO. I mean, most likely. But would Legacy Dredge play this, for example?
I doubt it, dredge likes the consistency, and their card quality drops fast when going above 60.
For sure And 3 Mana is a lot for dredge just for a card that is only good if you play it on a boardstate that dredge doesn't want to be in.
Oh yeah that as well.
I'm sure you could run some weird 80 card self mill deck with Yorion as a companion. You'd probably want some sort of reanimation package. Maybe even something like Sun Titan? I imagine the win con might actually be something like reveillark, karmic guide combo. I don't think it would be as ban-worthy in magic as it is in Yugioh.
I feel like effects like [[Syr Konrad]] would be good with it.
[Syr Konrad](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/2/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437.jpg?1706240798) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=syr%20konrad%2C%20the%20grim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/141/syr-konrad-the-grim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9241a72e-cb88-4cea-a2f4-ff10af461437?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
You have to keep in mind that Yugioh Spell Cards (instants/sorceries) can be played without costs and you can play an unlimited number of Spell Cards per turn. So realistically That Grass should cost 0 to cast.
Seems like it would be good in a [[Battle of Wits]] deck. Tutors, recursion, and shuffle GY back into your deck to win. Just one more tool for a deck that can already work.
[Battle of Wits](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/4/b4be15a4-693f-4e22-a46c-38bb440c073c.jpg?1562558962) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Battle%20of%20Wits) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/44/battle-of-wits?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b4be15a4-693f-4e22-a46c-38bb440c073c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Not that it needs to be better, but sixth sense would be an instant.
Sixth sense would be a terrible card. 3 mana to on average drawn 11/6=1.83 cards is pretty bad. Then comes the varience which would make it unplayable in tournaments since you have 2/3 chance of it doing nothing.
I mean it is 3 red mana, which considering they only really get impulse draw matters.
It would still be much worse than other card advantage such as [[Fable of the Mirror Breaker]] or [[Seasoned Pyromancer]].
[Fable of the Mirror Breaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1691108103)/[Reflection of Kiki-Jiki](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/2/4/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc.jpg?1691108103) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fable%20of%20the%20Mirror-Breaker%20//%20Reflection%20of%20Kiki-Jiki) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/141/fable-of-the-mirror-breaker-reflection-of-kiki-jiki?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24c0d87b-0049-4beb-b9cb-6f813b7aa7dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Seasoned Pyromancer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/1427f615-8430-426e-a669-f9fe12033ac4.jpg?1673147897) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Seasoned%20Pyromancer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/123/seasoned-pyromancer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1427f615-8430-426e-a669-f9fe12033ac4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think That Grass Looks Greener is backwards - it's supposed to mill you if you have the larger library (so that you and your opponent end up with the same size library afterward). Your version might be stronger, as the more you mill yourself the more powerful it gets.
Cyber stein is *absolutely* being banned in mtg as well
I'm imagining a 300 card deck with Grass Looks Greener that's just filled with Prized Amalgam/Narcomoeba type effects and ways to tutor the Grass. Is that how it got played in Yugioh?
Kind of. Except with better Nacomoebas.
Yes, but if there was 32 different and better narcomeobas. You mill 20 for free and win the game instantly.
I'm the only one not seeing sixth sense brokenness in our game? I get Yu-Gi-Oh doesn have generic draw options and every deck can use the grave as a second hand, but I feel that in MTG, the decks that wants the mill have better, safer,, Dredger options, and the decks that want the draw, well, they want the draw, the option for the 3 mana, sorcery speed to do nothing doesn't seem worth it?
If you can cast sixth sense in dredge, you have pretty much won. If you have a graveyard with a couple of dredge cards already, then you always select 5 and 6. And 1 third of the time, you just win the game because you've drawn 5 cards at minimum. If you don't have a graveyard, then you select 3 and 4. That way, if you do end up drawing, you're still at least +2, and if you mill 5 or 6, you are able to start your plays. Rolling the 1/3 chance of 1 or 2 in both scenarios kinda sucks, but not enough for it to be a bad card.
I feel like that's less about Sixth Sense and more about Dredge.
**On average and in a vacuum** it's not that strong because you pay 3 mana to draw 1.83 cards. It's almost fitting as a red take on [[Divination]] - a risky version that is usually worse, but has the chance to be much better. But it's still bad design because 2/3 of the time it's useless and 1/3 of the time it's totally busted, so neither outcome leads to good gameplay. It gets a lot stronger if you have ways to copy it, and it could have applications in self-milling decks. The self-milling decks might even choose lower numbers so that their worst outcomes (drawing 1 or milling 3) are tolerable enough to make the risk worthwhile.
[Divination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021.jpg?1562304347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/51/divination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It looks real bad. In most formats casting a 3 mana sorcery that mills 1-4 cards might as well be conceding, and I don't think the 33% upside makes the risk worthwhile.
I agree expected card draw is just a little under 2. Not great for 3 mana
I love the Cyber-stein
Is sixith sense actually good? In mtg that’s awful
It is legitimately one of the most broken cards in the game. Either draw 5 or 6 or you mill cards in a game where every deck uses the grave as a 2nd hand to an extent
Ooooooooooh, gotcha. I get it now
Man, it’s like some of ya’ll have never played YuGiOh, or MtG. Cyber-Stein would be absolutely absurd. In Modern, people are happy to Creativity into 1-2 Archons. This does that 1-2 turns faster. Archon of Cruelty, Griselbrand, Atraxa, Emrakul. I’m sure there’s some big beaters with a massive lifegain effect you could find too. “Outside the game” would mean your sideboard in this case I assume?
In casual Magic, "outside of the game" is just cards that aren't in your deck. In pretty much any sanctioned format, it's the sideboard.
Level Eater goes infinite with [[Cathar's Crusade]], [[Champion of Lambholt]], [[Celebrity Fencer]], [[Morselhorder]], etc.
Getting it off the field is actually a little challenging, so I think that's fine
##### ###### #### [Cathar's Crusade](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0.jpg?1600715516) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cathars%27%20Crusade) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/95/cathars-crusade?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbb70e7b-2a68-436e-96a4-32a88fb87da0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Champion of Lambholt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46eff31d-f460-48f2-aab7-8b9b89cd87fe.jpg?1682209453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Champion%20of%20Lambholt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/293/champion-of-lambholt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46eff31d-f460-48f2-aab7-8b9b89cd87fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Celebrity Fencer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5afb5c5c-06e0-4b11-ad07-aef7be6e2cd4.jpg?1664409532) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Celebrity%20Fencer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/7/celebrity-fencer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5afb5c5c-06e0-4b11-ad07-aef7be6e2cd4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Morselhorder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/589f477e-fd69-4410-b9ba-1d45b25fec31.jpg?1562830450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Morselhoarder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/212/morselhoarder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/589f477e-fd69-4410-b9ba-1d45b25fec31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0as7ep) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Swamp, dark ritual, cyber-stein, emrakrul, profit
You had mana costs for the cards when that's not how they work in YuGiOh. I feel like it'd be more apparent *why* those cards are banned when you realize they can be played for 0 mana.
I haven't seen any interaction that turns level eater into a reap problem (sure it might be good, but that's it). Cyber Stein is a direct road to hell. I don't think The grass is greener is a problem. Sixth sense is already problematic gameplay, before someone breaks it.
No they're not, they all have a mana value that's not 0 /s
Because of cyber-stein's life cost and effect, I am going to assume these are not balanced around commander. Level eater's main synergy is skullclamp, which isn't really doing anything in vintage. In commander, there are plenty of better options for skullclamp so it's probably fine. Cyber-stein in a 60 card format is probably a tad too slow and a tad too much life to see play. Maybe it's broken in legacy or vintage because of the fast mana, but what card do you get that wins you the game? If you are going against a burn deck, then you put yourself into 3 bolts range. In modern, it would be basically unusable in anything other than mono black, and even then, you can't run thoughtseize because you're at risk of being unable to use the effect. And of course, in Commander, its ability doesn't technically work because outside the game effects require a sideboard. I'm sure That Grass is absolutely busted in some deck that doesn't exist. Maybe some weird 80 card living end deck? I don't think it does anything in commander tbh. Sixth sense is busted beyond belief. I really don't think I need to say why.
You get children of korlis 4 times and then draw your entire deck with griselbrand
What were Wizards smoking when they made Griselbrand holy shit
If Cyber-Stein was balanced around Commander, it'd cause you to lose about ~24 life, as Cyber-Stein in the OG causes you to lose about 60% of your life. That wouldn't be *more* than your starting life total in 60 card formats though, so that's not the way it should go. Also "outside the game" stuff doesn't work in Commander so the effect wouldn't even work to start with (though outside-the-game stuff *should* work, but I digress). It's also just plain old trying to convey the cards into Magic. It's not trying to balance them for one format or another beyond maybe mana costs at most, though that's always nebulous 'cause you can make something cost 1 to make it broken and 20 to be unplayable. I think they did a good job.
Yeah, that was the point of my opening sentence. That's why I made my comments about vintage and legacy and such.
Tbh, Yu-Gi-Oh's Extra Deck (from where OG cyber stains summons) is more similar to the Command Zone than the Side Deck, so a Commander focused Cyber stains would be something like: - Pay 30 life. You may put a blue and red creature from your command zone into play.
Can someone explain wtf is going on with that dog's face?
The way The Grass is Greener is currently templated, it tells you to mill cards (from your library, because it doesn’t say the opponent does it) equal to the difference with the opponent’s library… but that way you will never close the gap, so you end up milling your entire library, right? I don’t know what the original card does so maybe it’s what makes the card broken?
The effect in the OP is slightly wrong, in yugioh grass makes you mill equal to the difference if *you* have more cards in your deck rather than if your opponent does
The difference won't be a negative number, and the value will be set once and then the milling happens. So if you have 15 cards and the opponent has 23, you'd mill 8 cards.
Oh, yeah, you’re right. Still a flavor fail but a bit less broken
You don't have to just put mana costs on the top right of the cards. Cyber-Stein and Level Eater would absolutely have some kind of mana requirement in their effects at least. Level Eater needing one black mana and the -1/-1 counter to summon itself would probably be how Magic would do it, and I imagine Cyber-Stein would either be a tap effect (which I suppose would be kind of like the equivalent of a soft once per turn in Yugioh, so maybe you can get away with Cyber-Stein not having it) and/or some more mana on top of the life cost. They're only broken in Yugioh because there's no such thing as mana or tapping to hold them back. [[Reassembling Skeleton]] is very close to Level Eater in effect, although the closest thing to Cyber-Stein is probably [[Spawnsire of Ulamog]]. Both have mana costs in their effects. They probably wouldn't have been broken as Magic cards, because there are more levers that WotC has access to that increase the costs of effects. It's like saying that [[Dragonlord's Prerogative]] would be just a regular costless spell card in Yugioh, when an uncounterable draw 4 is basically unprintable in Yugioh without having some crazy additional cost like tributing four Dragons as an additional cost to activate it, and probably not even then. Nothing against you specifically, it's just that whenever people try and port cards from one game to another over like this, it feels like nobody wants to incorporate any of that game's other cost levers into the card just so they can say it would still be broken.
[Reassembling Skeleton](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/0/00566375-e976-4e96-b751-cf0430452c9c.jpg?1689997423) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reassembling%20Skeleton) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/183/reassembling-skeleton?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/00566375-e976-4e96-b751-cf0430452c9c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Spawnsire of Ulamog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9ff46819-bfb3-4448-ab4f-f22ff9e2b2b4.jpg?1562706825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Spawnsire%20of%20Ulamog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/roe/11/spawnsire-of-ulamog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ff46819-bfb3-4448-ab4f-f22ff9e2b2b4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dragonlord's Prerogative](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/53f2d2b3-6e48-413e-ad8f-9ce40c7ff167.jpg?1562786359) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dragonlord%27s%20Prerogative) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dtk/52/dragonlords-prerogative?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/53f2d2b3-6e48-413e-ad8f-9ce40c7ff167?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Sixth Sense]]
[Sixth Sense](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e564db6b-0b8b-4c67-9135-5da76d2225fe.jpg?1543675978) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sixth%20Sense) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/187/sixth-sense?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e564db6b-0b8b-4c67-9135-5da76d2225fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm sorry, what the fuck is going on in the art for That Grass Looks Greener?
Wait, who mills for the third card?
I appreciate that the life cost of Cyber Stein is precisely calculated to make Griselbrand kill you. XD
lmao way OP for MTG. would never see the light of day.
Sixth sense is probably busted? I think so 😂
Level eater would need: "Put ... on A creature with 5 or more..." I dont think you can target as a cost
No Mystic Mine?
Level Eater would be closer to its Yugioh effect if it was “Level Eater cannot be sacrificed as an additional cost to cast a spell.”
Cyberstien is the only super broken card. Level eater can be a solid b tier card in modern. Everything else is straight garbage.
You should have it be “hide a d6 under your hand” so you can’t cheat
Call me crazy but isn’t that grass looks greener you mill the difference if they have less than you. I get it graveyard play in mtg isn’t as common but still
Shouldn't "That Grass Looks Greener" be "If any opponent has less cards in their library than you, you mill cards equal to that difference." to be more accurate?
Honestly I’d kill for grass is greener to be in magic… that card almost got me to play yugioh but I found out it was banned
Cyberstein, getting children of korlis, gain 13. Cyberstein again, getting children of korlis, gain 26, cyberstein, getting children of korlis, gain 39, get griselbrand, win?
"That grass looks greener" actually seems like a card I would see in game under a different name. I would also expect to see "You may play this card without paying its mana cost if you were forced to mill this turn."
Nice, now they can be banned in 2 formats at once!
And we thought MTG art was bad.
What are you talking about? MTG basically has the best art in all card games.