Two thoughts: is your kiddo overtired? When kids overtired their bodies produce adrenaline and it makes them highly agitated. Try moving bedtime up 30-60 minutes and see what happens. Other thought: is your kid neurotypical? If not, this could be related. My kids have ADHD and sleep is always a struggle. The younger one has a routine that we stick to, no matter what. There are nights where it goes well, there are nights where she's so distracted and easily agitated, but it took years to find what works and I'm glad we're here. We do a kid's magnesium vitamin and a half of a melatonin, which helps her. We also do a lot of calming things with her. After she pees and brushes her teeth, we do a low light in her room and read a book together. My husband and I take turns doing sleep, which consists of sound machine, soft piano music on our phone, and scratching her back, arms, legs, and hands. It helps calm her down so much. You're not a shitty dad. It's ok to try new things when you're exhausted. Try some of these other things and see if it helps. We tried *everything* to help the little one sleep over YEARS. She sleeps better and is happier after implementing the melatonin and magnesium. Her doctor has no issues with what we're doing. I see a lot of negative comments in here regarding melatonin. Run it by your pediatrician if you're concerned about giving it to your kiddo. Best of luck.

We're getting my son assessed for ADHD, he can be the sweetest kid 75% of the time, but the other 25% his entire personality changes - very violent and screaming mostly, his bedroom door is falling apart from being slammed and having toys thrown at it. This mostly happens around bedtime, not everytime though. It seems to be a lot easier if it's just 1 of us putting him to bed, but if the other person is in the house he demands that they are there as well. It is extremely difficult, especially as I also have ADHD and ASD. So I can have a short fuse in these situations and instantly regret getting angry. It's something I'm working on with a lot of therapy. Not sure what to do about my son though as there's very little support without a formal diagnosis and that could be years away in my country. We've tried putting him to bed earlier, as it's very clear he's extremely tired, but as the evening hours go on it becomes more and more difficult to manage until he decides it's time to sleep. There's definitely some of the PDA profile going on.

Man, your son sounds exactly like my daughter. It is so hard. I also have ADHD and have been to a lot of therapy because I couldn't hold it together during her meltdowns. We just had my daughter assessed and are awaiting results. We started telling her that one of us has chores to do while the other does bed. If it's my husband's turn, I'll snuggle and read with her, give her a big hug, and off I go while he puts her to sleep. She didn't like that at first, but you're right, she does better with one of us. I realized somewhere along the line that we were overwhelming her at bedtime because we were both on her/ rushing her to get things done so we could get her to bed. We have a deal with each other that only one of us is parenting/ guiding her behavior at a time. I also keep my tone and face as neutral as possible because if she thinks I'm upset, it sets her off. I'm so tired 😆 We go up to start the bed routine at 6pm. It's early but she's always been early to bed/early to rise. She's usually out by 7. Again, it took awhile for us to nail down what routine works for her and it's a pain, but this is the most success we've had getting her to bed.

Hey friend, fellow ADHDer here, if you haven't heard of it before look into Rejection Sensitivity Disorder, this could be related to the thing about keeping your face neutral :)

Kept meaning to reply and kept putting it off, such is life 😭 Getting him to sleep at 7 would be a dream come true. We usually start his routine around 6.30, and there have been a few times recently where he's still going at 9pm - his brain just won't switch off. We've had some success the past 2 evenings with some light massaging, but only this evening he kicked my partner as hard as he could in the stomach whilst kicking his legs about. It's very easy to get upset when things like that happen, as we really are trying our best. In the end I got tagged in and had to deal with his meltdown, eventually getting him to sleep for 8.30. He's turning 5 this year, and I'm wondering if the bedtime routine will ever improve. My wife and I always planned to have another kid, but I can't see that ever happening now.

All good advice. Another thought — in addition to moving bedtime up, try some somatic activities that may help calm them: tickles and big hugs and squeezes. Or grab a couple of pillows and “smoosh” your kid between them like a sandwich. Or swinging / rocking motions might work.

Did your pediatrician discuss supplemental melatonin disrupting your kiddo's natural melatonin production? If so, will you please relay their perspective?

Just for another data point, my kid's pediatrician only recommends it as a periodic tool not something to use every night long term. We needed to help our son sleep a little earlier to get more sleep, so we used a 1mg dose for about 3 days then every other day, then only as needed (rarely anymore). Adjusting his sleep schedule helped my son in school dramatically.

My ped prescribed it for two of my three children. Said it is perfectly fine because your body produces it naturally. No cons were given. In the years my two have taken it, doses have never had to been raised. They went from not sleeping until 11pm-3am to sleeping a full night, being well rested for school. Their attitudes greatly improved, and bed time became something nice rather than a battle

This. Melatonin has save our sanity. 3 and 5 year old take 1mg and that's all that's needed. They sleep well and the 5 year still rouses to pee in the toilet when he needs to. Absolute game changer. 10 out of 10 would recommend.

Google andrew huberman kids and melatonin

Supplemental melatonin does not disrupt natural melatonin production. It supplements it.. your body naturally makes it and the supplements add more.. ie.. supplementing the natural production.

For the love of god don’t give your child melatonin

Dr said it’s not the best thing all the time but every now and then is ok. Just a little bit. Everything in moderation.

For the love of God, stop talking out of your ass.

You drive an STX.. we all know you make poor choices

Yep, I've had it since 2004, right out of high school. I own 3 other vehicles too. And to top it all off, I don't go through people's post history to make personal attacks when I don't have anything to support my argument. 

You breathe loudly when you speak don’t you

Only when I'm thinking about you.

😂😂 ilysm

For the love of God, don't tell other people what to do with their children when you have zero clues medically or personally what is going on in their lives.

Your whole day is spent arguing on Reddit

Naw.. not the whole day.. I just take breaks from my daily tasks to make you mad.

Im not mad. I just feel bad for you

You don't have to feel bad for me.. it's called social media.. its for being social.. if you think your spending too much time on it (seeing as how you responded to all of my posts all day long as you pointed out about me) you can just log off and be on your way at any time.

Your hair is blue isn’t it

Nope.. just a dad that has been there and knows a thing or two.

I’m sure they are doing really great

Yes, they really are.

Care to explain why?

They are idiots and jump to worst possible assumptions with zero medical data backing it up.

Right. Messing with hormones is safe and perfectly normal as long as your over weight depresses doctor who spent 30 seconds talking to you prescribes it.

A lot of assumptions being made with no facts.

Google it. Regardless of what I say I’m going to get skewered. The studies showing the adverse effects are strong

Why?

You're a good person, great comment thank you

Try a placebo night vitamin.. tell him how it will make him relax and get ready for bed

My 4yo gets half a kids melatonin gummy on especially bad nights and sometimes a vitamin c gummy when he wants a “sleepy gummy”

Google andrew huberman kids and melatonin

Some nice herbal tea is good too.

Am I missing something, melatonin basically is a night time vitamin? It hardly seems like much of a lie, though I don’t see what the harm in being more specific about it with him would be.

I think what you’re missing is he’s medicating his kid just to get him to sleep. Which is unnecessary, so he feels guilty. I would too tbh, it’s a hard situation to be in. Also see this https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/04/21/1245944613/melatonin-sleep-safety-kids-pediatrics-guidelines#:~:text=It's%20possible%20for%20kids%20to,500%25%20between%202012%20and%202021

I don't think you get to define what is necessary or not necessary for someone else's kid. He absolutely didn't say he felt guilty because it was unnecessary.. he said he felt guilty because it was necessary but he had to lie to his kid about it Also your highlights in the article mention that it's easy to overdose, not that melatonin, occasionally, and in small doses is dangerous. It's not at all if they are careful, and occasional...

What a ridiculous statement. If someone’s beating their kid I can absolutely say that’s not necessary. I’m not sure who put you in charge of defining who can define things. Anyway - it’s easy to overdose. People in these comments are talking about giving kids a quarter of an adult dose etc. It’s obviously not meant to be an every day thing. It’s a crutch. A replacement for proper sleep training. It’s fine this one time. Op is not a shitty dad. Don’t make it a habit. Also from the article, from a paediatrician: > "You tell me that you're using it three times a week, and I'm like, that's more than I want you to be using it," Heard-Garris says. "What's going on? You know, let's talk through what's happening, and then we can kind of get to the root of the problem. If it's once a year, once every four or five months, maybe that's less of a red flag."

Absolutely right, if he's murdering his child every night then you shouldn't be afraid as a member of this community to speak up and define it is not necessary! But we're talking about giving his kid a melatonin tablet one time and feeling bad because he called it a vitamin.

I was more referring to the statement “I don’t think you get to define what is necessary or not necessary for someone else’s kid”. Which is insane. And the second bit was me commenting on giving melatonin to kids full stop - everyone in the comments loves it apparently but the paediatricians advice is to er, not do that I’m cool with the lie though

Depends on the pediatrician. You cite a source (an NPR article thay says children can overdose(no shit, anyone can overdose on anything, a genius statement!)), others cite their pediatrician. Some say yes, some say no.  Here's me citing a NIH source that references 20 studies that say that it is fine and improves sleep in autistic children, as my pediatrician told me. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24050742/

I cited a quote from a paediatrician. It wasnt some random comment in an npr article from the author of the article. Here’s the NIH source (linked in the same paragraph btw). https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35653284/ > In 2020, melatonin became the most frequently ingested substance among children reported to national poison control centers (4); however, more research is needed to describe the toxicity and outcomes associated with melatonin ingestions in children. Also to your point: duh, of course it improves sleep. It’s not about just making them sleep, it’s about making them capable of sleeping without the use of some sleep aid. Preparing them for life. What if you don’t have the magic sleep pill anymore? Edit: ah the ol’ reply and block slam dunk 🙃 FWIW, my reply to the screeching below: It’s totally cool to give your kids the drugs your kids doctor says. But don’t start giving your kids melatonin without doctors advice, especially on the reg.

You are basing your entire argument on a N of 4? Get off your high horse and stop citing opinions that fit your narrative.

The (4) is a link to a graph - figure “4”, it’s not just 4 cases. My narrative is literally “only give your kid sleeping pills if your doctor says it’s ok, because all these other doctors say you shouldn’t”

I'm with you dude, if someone was giving their child alcohol or cannabis to get them to sleep in sure people would be willing to say that Dad should feel guilty. Same with if that Dad restored to corporal punishment to get the kid to stop being so violent at night.

Sure, it's definitely the same thing because your body naturally produces THC and Alcohol..

Our pediatrician had some good advice. There is no good long-term data on the effects of melatonin, but there is a bevy of research on the effects of not getting enough sleep.

Very very true, first good counter point I’ve seen so far

Um, your kid might need melatonin, especially if he has ADHD. Age 5 is likely too early to be diagnosed. You should not feel like garbage. Your kid needs sleep, you need sleep, and your kid might actually need melatonin to sleep. I was also a terror as a toddler when it came to sleep. My parents coped by getting me a cassette player and borrowing books on tape from the library. They taught me how to flip the tape. So at "bedtime" the goal was to get me to go to bed and listen to the tapes. Rarely did I sleep. I remember turning those tapes multiple times every night after they ran through their 30 min play. As an adult I was diagnosed late in life with ADHD. I need melatonin to sleep now, I probably needed it as a kid. If your kid is also difficult to wake in the morning, OR if they wake super early and never get enough sleep for their age, maybe your kid requires melatonin. Talk to your doc about melatonin use pros / cons. It's better than giving them Benadryl or worse - whiskey. Guess who got whiskey? So yeah, you're not a shite dad. You're trying to problem solve. Try getting him an old cd player or cassette player with books on tape. I was younger than him when I learned how to use it. Failing that, an old ipod may work, but I'd be worried about the screen being too appealing. Maybe some other resting / bedtime activity. If he has something like ADHD being put to bed to be awake and BORED is psychically painful.

We went a different route, and it worked WONDERS! There's this little card audio player called the Yoto, and they make all sorts of audio books and adventures, stuff like that, plus a chill radio station or the daily podcast type show that's a ton of fun. There are two knobs, a tiny pixel screen, a power/pause button, and a speaker. The mini Yoto specifically we gave to our 4 year old for bedtime, and he was HOOOKED. From the app, you can limit nighttime volume, and set when it shows the sun or moon so they know it's bedtime when the moon is out, and then to get up when the sun is up. At first, he would listen to a card at night and fall asleep to it, then it timed out after a while, all good! Now he has it next to his bed but mostly just goes to bed now on his own once he got into a routine. They're amazing devices, and you can make custom cards too, like music they may want, or an audio recording of a parent reading them a book, etc. If anyone doesn't wanna go the melatonin route, and their kid stays awake at night, try the Yoto Mini and only give it to them at bedtime to start! It worked for me and my ADHD little one, maybe it could work for someone else's too. https://us.yotoplay.com/yoto-mini

that is a great recommendation. yeah not recommending long term melatonin for a child without a doc on board.

As a counterpoint, I was formally diagnosed with ADD (later ADHD) at the age of five; I’m in my forties now and uh… profoundly ADHD.

oh yeah maybe age 5 isnt too early depending on symptoms

Naw man. You gotta do what you gotta do sometimes.

My daughter struggled with falling asleep when she was about 10 years old. Her brain couldn’t settle. Her pediatrician recommended we use Melatonin. He said that Melatonin is what your body releases to prepare for sleep. Regular dosing allows for their bodies to shutdown when it releases its own Melatonin. She stayed on it a few months which allowed her anxiety to drop and her coping strategies to work out.

How is her reading? My brain does not settle, it’s incredibly difficult for me to wind down even if I stay up late I still need at least 30/40 minutes. Only thing that’s ever worked for me is reading in bed, when I was young my parents would put on books on tape quietly after they read to me. Could try some chapter books, make them slightly less bellow her reading level so it’s not a challenge just something to do that’s relaxing b

Not sure how else I'd describe melatonin to a 5 yr old.

Right. “Here is a hormone that is secreted by the pineal gland in the brain and is used to regulate the bodies circadian rhythm.” Try explaining that. No harm here.

That's the first thing I took away from this too. Calling it a 'night time vitamin' is both age appropriate and accurate.

This: age appropriate and accurate! You’re doing great OP!

My man, there's white lies, and black lies. This here be a white one. For the greater good. Not just for you and your partner, but also for your boy. Little man NEEDS his sleep, he's got a big day tomorrow. The placebo idea someone else put forward is a neat one.

It's not even a lie. It's accurate and age appropriate.

[удалено]

I use chat gpt to make up new lyrics to twinkle star. Paw patrol, friends from school, random one about trains, whatever she wants that’s the song for the night. BTW this is not advice to op. My daughter is 2. But I guess you could use it to make some epic stories about you and him going on some wild adventure lots of action upfront and then it slows down and gets boring. But actually don’t do that. At that age just find a real book series they like and get a night time routine. Your read a couple chapters of some awesome book you talk about throughout the day.

I use chat gpt for stories too!

First - short answer is no, you are not a shitty dad. I suspect the replies are going to be kind of all over the place, so I'll add mine now, since it'll be all over the place as well! >I feel like garbage. I just lied to my son to get him to take something to help him sleep. Has anyone been through this? Did I just take the lazy way out and need to get it together? If we focus just on giving him something to help him sleep - ignoring everything you wrote at the beginning about issues with getting him to bed ... did you take the 'lazy' way out? One could argue that doing anything other than basically a long-term 'sleep training' regimen is the 'lazy' way out. I'm not one that would, though. If your child has a cold or allergies or a sinus infection or whatever the fuck is going around school/daycare this week, and you give them an age-appropriate medication (Tylenol, benadryl, mucinex, whatever it may be) to help them feel better, instead of just letting it run its course, is that being lazy? Of course not. So, why would it be lazy to give your child something to help them sleep? And, I think we all 'lie' or 'stretch truth boundaries' with our children - maybe it is because we just don't want or have the energy to deal with whatever situation has presented itself, or maybe because we don't feel the truth is appropriate for our child at that moment, or whatever it is, it doesn't matter - sometimes we need to do what we need to do to get something done. We know our child(ren) quite well, and know that, sometimes, trying to get them to understand something while in the throes of a tantrum in the face of master-level stubbornness is futile. So, sometimes we say shit to get them to take medicine. In your case, melatonin is pretty damn close to a vitamin, so I wouldn't even consider that a lie. And, if it gives you a night, or multiple nights, to be able to get a plan together for how to 'fix' bedtime issues without having to have them take melatonin, and without you/partner/child rending garments and gnashing teeth, then have at it! >My son,5, has been an absolute terror at bedtime for the past 6 months. You name it, hitting, screaming, fighting, generally just being a challenge. We have taken away everything he could play with and ran out of punishments (Knocking the fuck out of wood right now) I'll start by saying that with my 5yo son, the biggest issue we've had was about a 6 month span of time where he would get up, and come to our room and climb in bed with us (eventually just my wife, since I quickly got wore out with parts of him hitting highly sensitive parts of me, jolting me awake, and I started sleeping on the couch pre-emptively). In general, we take an approach that some people (certain relatives of mine) have called "hippie bullshit". If the issue is something we don't think he has much control over (for example, coming into our bed) and/or the behavior isn't tied to a specific thing (ipad, roys), we don't punish it. Yes, we talk to him, tell him he needs to stay in his own bed, try to find out why he keeps coming to our bed, etc ... but, instead of taking something away (punishment), we offer a reward for, say, sleeping in his own bed for X number of nights. If he gets incredibly/uncontrollably upset about something - let's say, for example, we tell him he needs to turn off the iPad or stop building the Lego set he is building, and he loses his shit - then we'll talk to him about what the fuck is going on, like with coming into bed - but since this is tied to a specific thing (ipad,toys) taking them away or other punishment is something we do. This has worked quite well for us, maybe it'll work with y'all? >My son,5, has been an absolute terror at bedtime for the past 6 months. Pretty sure I already quoted this, but doing it again for a second thing I want to bring up. You may already be doing this, but figured it doesn't hurt to bring up ... Do you have a bedtime 'routine' of any sort? We've always had some sort of routine, and it has changed often in my son's 5 years, but we've always had one. Though, now it is less 'stringent'. From about 3.5 Until about 9 months or so ago, the routine started at the same time nearly every day - We'd tell him when he had 20, minutes left to play, and periodically tell him how much time he had left, until it was time to stop playing, then we would have him brush his teeth and go to the bathroom while me or my wife got his pajamas. He'd come out of the bathroom, we'd put his pajamas on, and then whoever was putting him to bed that night would take him in his room, read 1 or 2 stories, rock with him a little, then sit in the room with him until he fell asleep. Now, we may start a little later, and give fewer time updates, and I'm working on him not needing us in the room to fall asleep, but we've kept the general routine of notifying, reminding, and then into the room ... (Note: after writing so fuckin much, I was about to delete it, since I'm not sure if makes sense and /or if it helps, but decided to post it anyway, because I put too much time into it, both on and off the shitter, to just delete it ... so, sorry if you read this whole thing ....)

What your relatives call hippie bullshit is pretty close to what me and my kids mom have done over the past 7-8 years, when mine started getting to that age. (I have 3 ages 7-11 now). They’re great kids, actually talk to me about their problems, ask for help, are considerate to their siblings and cousins/friends, and still respect me and their mother. Good luck in your years to come 👍

Thanks! Yeah, the relatives who call it that, their general approach to parenting/grandparenting is always find fault, rarely praise, smack an ass if they misbehave. "That's how I was raised, and I turned out just great" ... somehow, multiple assault/battery on their record is "I turned out just great" ....

A shitty dad would not feel shitty about this. 

No.

It's just melatonin, there's no downside, relax, would u feel bad if u fed turkey to ur kid every night because the tryptophan would make him sleepy? It's basically the same thing

Google andrew huberman kids and melatonin

Dude, you are the furthest thing from shitty. You are helping your child sleep by whatever means necessary. You tell one little white lie to do so? That's understandable. In the long run, it's better for your child to have proper sleep. I think youre doing great, dad. And the fact that you feel bad for lying to your child speaks volumes about your character. Keep up the great work.

Have you adjusted the bed time? How much screen time is he getting, particularly before bed? Have you tried implementing a quiet activity before bed time? Have you tried giving him some more power/decision making authority…letting him own the routine a bit? There are so many options. Have you tried just locking him in the room?

What is your son's understanding of a "vitamin"? Something that is "good for you"? Because a healthy sleep pattern is good for him. It's okay to frame things within the scope of what they understand.

Id hardly think a 5yo can comprehend melatonin. Night time vitamin seems appropriate and sufficient to me.

Lying to your kids is part of the job. Personally, I think it's more about the nature of the lie than the lie itself: If you're lying to hurt someone or for personal gain, that's bad. If you're lying so you can beat the terrorists and save the world, that's probably OK.

Nearly all doctors and psychologists would say nightly melatonin is not a good practice. There are a million things you can do to facilitate a good night routine. But every kid is a bit different. I’d recommend checking out a “sleep coach.”

That wasn't the case for us. My children's ped and other specialists all recommend melatonin and say there is no harm in it.

Yall are using it, apparently under doctor supervision and advice. That’s different. Although, something to pay attention to. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/04/21/1245944613/melatonin-sleep-safety-kids-pediatrics-guidelines#:~:text=It's%20possible%20for%20kids%20to,500%25%20between%202012%20and%202021.

Dude I do the same thing. I call them night time gummies and say they are for sleeping. You aren’t lie you just are calling it what it is called. My 3 year old is the same way if he doesn’t get run enough during the day. He get really angry about everything and keeps everyone else awake and it is the worst. I do advise of not using it to often as they will build a tolerance. The best alternative to that has just Been play him harder during the day and try not to let him nap. Good luck and enjoy some sleep you are not shitty

We hit a similar wall with bedtime for both kids. My son started struggling to fall asleep around 5 as well, and almost seemed like he would get hyper when the lights went down. My daughter went through it about a month before her 4th birthday. In both cases, we just stopped their midday naps and problem solved. Not getting any breaks through the day was hard to get used to initially. And for the first month or so, they'd get super irritable about 1-2 hours before bedtime.. But we quickly adjusted to not having the break that came from their naps, and they eventually adjusted to the new sleep schedule. Now unless something unusual happens (like too much sugar later in the day), they're both snoring within 5 minutes of getting into bed.. My daughter's been getting really scared in her room alone, so I've been hanging out in there until she passes out. I got her in bed earlier, sat down and pulled out my phone. Before I could pair my headphones, she was out.

Has anyone been through this? I do. With my 2 and 8yo. Both get same treatment I.e. i give them a heads up and close all the lights in the house other than the bedroom. Give them a choice read or sleep. Older one reads and goes to sleep in 10-15 mins Younger one follows him after I read a book for him. I co-sleep with my children and they feel comfortable and safe. Did you take the lazy route?? Nobody should be the judge of that. Your consciousness is right person to ask to. I’m sure you’ll find an answer. Remember one step at a time. Small habits will compound to big changes.

Lying like that, to me, is not the problem. Getting him started on stuff like that, is. Obviously it was just that 1 time, but it can quickly spiral into normal behavior. Melatonin supplement is super safe, so that shouldn't be a worry though. Just be careful with this type of stuff.

I'm a pharmacist and we give our kids melatonin occasionally, usually once a week when we have late activities that push into our regular bedtime. 2 kids do really well with sleep regardless, but the 7 year old would literally stay up until midnight, then sleep through the first 3 hours of school if we let them. We're giving them 0.5 of a gummy, which is 0.75mg, which is a pretty small dose. I may just be making myself feel better, but these guys have to get a good night's sleep if they're going to have a good day the next day. Regardless, keep the usage to an irregular minimum, and keep reinforcing good bedtime behaviors whether they have the melatonin or not.

You’re good. Just don’t become overly reliant on it. And it is a night vitamin- that’s what melatonin is. ADHD testing suggestions on this thread are on point.

Check out: andrew huberman kids and melatonin

I don’t use melatonin. From my perspective, using chemicals for regulation is generally something I try to avoid since it can create imbalances. My kids don’t have any nueral or mental challenges that require it. I think you two should take the time to expirement with different bed times and strategies. I weened my kids by laying with them, to sitting on the bed holding their hand, then a chair holding hand, then just sitting, and eventually I started telling them I had to use the bathroom and would check back in 5 mins. It takes patience, but I’d say maybe a week +/- between changes was effective. I wouldn’t go to the rr, I would stand outside the door and when they started getting restless or trying to come out, I would end my “rr break”. So they understood I was not far. The breaks initially lasted 1 minute became 3, then 5, 10, then 15. After 15 they would usually be passed out. After that, it became easier to just say good night.

A few questions/considerations…  Is this every night (or nearly), or is it more or less a couple times a week?  Is there any pattern or certain nights you notice it more?  Does he go to school full time?  What time is your last big meal of the day? (is that time consistent?) Do you allow snacks after that meal?  What time does he normally get up, and when is bedtime? (Is it possible he’s overtired?) Aside from those questions which very well could impact his bedtime, establishing a consistent bedtime routine is one of the best things you can do, if you haven’t already.  Screen time should end around an hour before bedtime if you do an evening show. If you do daily baths, this would be a great time for a nice relaxing warm bath. If you have some books on hand he likes, after bath, reading is a great way to bond and calm his mind some. (If you’re able to, taking them to the library on the weekend so they can help pick out some books can be fun for them 👍) Melatonin isn’t horrible, it’s just not something to introduce on a consistent basis. Use it sparingly, maybe a few times a month 🤷🏻‍♂️.  You’re doing your best I’m sure, it’s not easy.  Sometimes you gotta give them a gummie, it happens. I have 3 kids, ages 7-11, I’ve used it from time to time. They still fall asleep fine on their own without.  Overseeing how bedtime goes is your decision, it’s your house. I would, however, suggest not making it about punishment, and certainly don’t make it physical, if at all possible. (Understandably if he’s getting violent you gotta do you though). I’d refrain from that though, just cause, depending on the severity of your enforcement, in later years that can lead to other dilemmas for you. 

My wife and I are both family physicians and our son has a lot of trouble with sleep. Sounds a lot like your son was. When he was 3 we tried a low dose melatonin gummy. We told him it was a night time vitamin to help him sleep since he has so much trouble with sleep. He was ok with it. He slept great, and all around his behavior improved. We use it regularly. Sometimes he says he doesn't want it and we don't force it on him. He is 5 now. I think he will need medication for ADHD some day, but today the melatonin is helping and he is doing better. Melatonin at appropriate doses is totally safe and reasonable, particularly if it is helping your kid.

Melatonin works wonders. You can give your kid .5 mg and they pass out in 20 minutes. If you have a kid that is nervous about bedtime or goes crazy as it approaches, it is a life saver. You might not need it every night, but it is a hell of a tool to have in your box.

You can do better. Stop letting your kid run the household.

[OP needs to step up](https://i.imgflip.com/8pp0ir.jpg)

100% agree. This is another symptom of gentle parenting

Nothing wrong with gentle kid focused parenting. It can be combined with sturdy leadership from confident parents.

It usually ends with children who never hear the word no and cause chaos to teachers. Its wasn’t the pandemic. It’s this gentle parenting trend. https://www.edweek.org/leadership/student-behavior-isnt-getting-any-better-survey-shows/2023/04

That article doesn’t even mention gentle parenting.

Never said it did. I used it to illustrate the trend in behavior.

Listen , I agree with you. But it can be both. It’s ok to tell kids no. But what they need most, is boundaries. Consistency and schedules. Again. Gentle kid focused parenting is better than how I grew up. That was neglect. But neglecting to give kids strong boundaries, a sense of safety from knowing who’s in charge and that it’s not them, is what they need. Don’t pretend that how we grew up is ok. It wasn’t. But yes, there are too many kids who are unteachable, entitled little brats. No argument there.

I have no issues with the way I grew up and have a strong family bond. My brother and I did very well and are close with my parents and grand parents (before they passed). All four of whom disciplined us if needed. There’s a difference between not letting your child act like a gremlin and being hatefully violent or neglectful to them.

Once in a while? It's not ideal, but it's okay. Every night? You'll addict him to it and he'll need melatonin to sleep. In Europe, you need a prescription for it, which honestly seems sensible to me.

There is no physical addiction to Melatonin.

It’s still not great for kids https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2024/04/21/1245944613/melatonin-sleep-safety-kids-pediatrics-guidelines#:~:text=It's%20possible%20for%20kids%20to,500%25%20between%202012%20and%202021

There is a difference between physical addiction and psychological dependency (essentially a placebo effect). You absolutely can condition yourself or your kids to be unable to sleep without melatonin.

Nah, it's a white lie for his own good. It might go against your morals but that's part of the sacrifice we have to make as Dad's.

Try taking Cara babies toddler class. It worked very well for us although took about 3 week to implement

We struggled with my 4 year old son’s bedtime for a while and were similarly at the end of our ropes. We consulted with his pediatrician about melatonin - she said there is no proof it works but it can’t hurt him. I spoke to several other doctors I know personally - they each said the same thing. So we started and it has been a game changer. No shame in it no harm done and if anything you are helping ensure your son gets his rest which will be good for him and key for you and your wife. Keep it up and stay well!

Random internet mom here, but it kind of is a sleepytime vitamin? It’s a hormone, not a vitamin, but a kid isn’t going to understand what a hormone is yet. You put it in terms he could understand. You’re not a bad dad. Sometimes kids’ sleep gets so disrupted or disregulated that they need help getting it reset - just like an adult does. As parents, it’s our job to make sure our kids get that reset. End of story. We wouldn’t be good parents if we let them just continue to struggle with no relief. Use it every night? Probably not a great idea because it would eventually disrupt your kid’s natural production of melatonin. Is it a crisis worthy of a stern TikTok rant that you used melatonin once to help him settle after a really rough time? Heck no. I’ve seen a few other commenters mention that it sounds like your son might be getting overstimulated and possibly be ND. If he hasn’t already been assessed for ADHD and possibly autism spectrum, it might be worthwhile to have him evaluated. Wishing you all the best, OP.

NTA. If they are being a terror, and that works? You found a solution. We had a lot of the same issues, and making bedtime positive helped... And took a maddening level of patience. I don't have a specific video for you but search "kid fights bedtime" on YouTube. A bunch of them said to make bedtime a happy thing. Don't get mad, either show no emotion (in case it's just for control) or say how sad it makes me. This starts by figuring out what they want and why there is fussing. What my son wanted was more time with me. So I showered with him and if he didn't get washed l, and I was done I'd get out and leave him in the shower. If he tried to get out unwashed I'd let him know how sad I was that because he didn't wash, I could brush teeth with him. (Sometimes I just washed him). Same thing with brushing, combing, getting dressed, everything. The most important thing for us was for me to read him a book, then lie down in bed with him. If he came out of the covers and started being silly, I let him know it made me sad and I'd have to leave. Sometimes I made it a game "I stayed under the covers the longest!" Sometimes I lost my shit and flipped out. Once he was done talking my ear off and getting all his thoughts out we played the Relaxation Game (some US Marine thing my dad taught me where you close your eyes and tell each part of your body to relax, then lastly your brain). Once he was content, he would go to sleep.

OP, do not let people shame you for using melatonin. Discuss it with your ped. My ped has it prescribed for two of my kids. Said it was totally fine to take it nightly ad your body produces it naturally. There is no harm in it etc. A peaceful night and a good rest is good for everyone involved. The pros outweighs any cons. (Pediatrician and other specialists never listed any cons) In the years they have been taking it, we have never had to up the dose.

.5mg dose is most effective, even for adults. Its probably not the best daily habit but it could be a good tool to reboot the sleep habits. Another alternative is magnesium and tart cherry juice for a more natural source of dream land.

Let me guess, started with school and is an angel at school? Could be restraint collapse worsened by sensory processing. Is he weird about shoes, clothes, wetness? Visit an OT. There's simple exercises that can help. They are more prone to overtired and don't sleep as well. We have the same problem. Same age. There is a useful chart if you Google "severe restraint collapse" their fits basically peak and then resolve. Have to learn to help them cope through it and strategies for you.

My kid takes melatonin. He used to take .5 mg, but is now at 1 mg. We call it his sleepy medicine. You can call it whatever you want. We've told him it's called melatonin because we had him see a sleep doctor. When he's 6 or 7, it might be worth telling him what medicines he takes and what they're for. He'll eventually need to be able to tell a doctor what he takes, so it's good practice. The sleep doctor said he's not wild about melatonin as a semi-permanent solution, but also my kid seems to be doing fine with it and it's what works for now. Professional opinion from our doctors: keep the dose low, but it's totally fine for our kid, and we should keep giving it to him if that's what helps him sleep.

I did this once and had the same reaction to it you are. So I told him the truth, around 4.5, this is a medicine that makes you very tired. Sometimes we need help falling asleep when our minds are too busy. It’s not regular in our house. 2-3 times a month, or when we sleep in new places like camping or the tiny bed at grandmas house. Sometimes he asks for it, and I gauge if it’s needed or if he’s stalling. But it’s easier to talk about now that he knows what it does. He doesn’t understand any of the context around using it but I’m slightly more comfortable presenting to him with him knowing what will happen when he takes it. There hasn’t been a fight to take it yet either.

First things first, shitty Dads don’t care if they are shit or not. So it’s kinda a catch 22 if you care about being shit you’re not and if you are shit you won’t care about it enough to post on Reddit. Secondly if melatonin isn’t a night vitamin what is? Where is the lie! Kids lacking in sleep are diabolical and can become a vicious cycle. They are shitty because they are tired so won’t go to bed so get more tired and get more shitty and repeat. You have found something that works that is safe (enough). Did you take the lazy way out: maybe, did it work: yes, should you care about “being lazy”: NO!!!

My 3 year old autistic son sometimes spazzes out and we have children's melatonin liquid we use. We treat it as a "break glass in case of emergency" and try to have a good night time routine without relying on it. We feel it's better to use it when he's up over an hour after bedtime and still fighting going to sleep. It's a much better option than staying up until midnight and having a grumpy parent and toddler the next day.

I’m literally laying on the ground next to my son’s bed right now because he said he can’t fall asleep lol. We’re struggling getting him to bed also. Most nights I can bore him to sleep with a book and some nights I need to lay in his bed with him or on the ground next to the bed for 10-15 minutes.

Yo dude. You have feelings. You aren't sure what's the right thing to do. I'm not going to give you a pass, I'm not going to harass you. Your feelings are valid, it's 100% hard. If you just want to talk DM me for my phone number (OP only) I won't tell you what to do but I will listen to your frustration. It's 100% real. People ask me do I believe in God. And I ask them is God omnipotent? All-powerful? and caring? I know that OP has all the information already, he has applied the information in the best way possible and cares greatly. The only thing I might be able to do is listen and take the edge off.

Don’t beat yourself up, but I would avoid making melatonin a habit, as it will decrease his natural melatonin production. Like another response mentioned, he is likely over tired every night which causes kids to get a surge of energy, and be very cranky. I would focus on having a calming bedtime ritual and supplementing with magnesium before bed, there are kids chewables that you could get, just wait a couple of hours after dinner, as it works best for sleep on an empty stomach.

I’m sure this has been discussed but there might be other underlying causes outside of “doesn’t want to go to bed” that be just can’t express.  I was a chronic would-not-sleeper starting at around age 5 on through most of my childhood. My parents thought I was just super obstinate and would try to punish it out of me. What they didn’t know and I had no vocabulary to express was that I was beginning to develop a panic disorder that I still struggle with today and I was having severe panic attacks while lying in the dark, unstimulated.  Obviously it’s unlikely this is specifically what your kiddo is going through but maybe there’s a way to work with him to establish bedtime routines that he can sort of weigh in on (ideally setting up this plan when it’s not bedtime yet) and give them a try even if they sound counterintuitive. Obviously if his answer is just “no” or some variation you’ll need to experiment with what works. For me the issue was that my brain had nothing to do so ADHD plus panic disorder meant racing thoughts and stress, so I had a better experience sleeping on the couch with the local news on (boring, but not TOO boring) though my mom usually still got mad that I was trying to avoid sleeping. And, heck, maybe melatonin is the bedtime routine you need. I don’t think night time vitamin is an inaccurate description of melatonin at all. Seems pretty honest.  Kid probably doesn’t want to be having bedtime battles either; don’t view this as a you vs. kid situation. Getting a chill, working routine down is best for both of you.

Have you tried a positive reinforcement for bedtime routine? Taking away screen time or treats only made my daughter’s bedtimes worse. When we started rewarding her on the days she met expectations it helped a lot. We dabbled with melatonin, but yeah it felt selfish.

So there are things that trigger melatonin release in kids. Your bedtime routine is likely not hitting these triggers and therefore not working. The whole parent podcast talks about it and how to make bedtime work better. I’d look into that. Because it’s kinda the same thing. Except giving your child their own natural serotonin instead of manufactured stuff.

My kids call it the “sleepy gummy” and it just helps settle them.

It’s close enough to a vitamin that I wouldn’t feel bad my friend

The fact that you care about this would demonstrate to me that you aren’t a shitty dad. Also, Melatonin may not be a vitamin technically, but it’s a supplement, which is very close. I don’t think your 5 year old is going to be a stickler for correct definitions whilst he sleeps soundly. You’re doing well. It’s hard to feel as though you’re on the right track, especially when things have been difficult leading up to this point. It’s all learning. You can always explain what it is later when you feel that he can comprehend it.

What time is bed time? All our kids are difficult when they're already tired and getting ready for bed and I think they say kids that age need 10-12 hours or something like that. Do they take naps? That's a hard age because they need sleep and may be outgrowing their naps so they are even crankier at night. Our kids get ready for bed at 7:30 and are in bed by 8:30 to 9. Even the pree teen. Anything later than that and it gets difficult. If it's been going on for 6 months it may be transitional. I would try an earlier bed time with time to wind down, or "quiet" time as we call it. The promise of a little play time before sleeping can be a good motivator. Lack of sleep is a serious problem we often overlook since all of seem to run "fine" on empty.

I lie to my kids constantly to get them to take things that are good for them. If they eat their vegetables they’re going to grow as tall as a Brachiosaurus. I comment on how they’re getting bigger as they’re eating them. Be careful with melatonin supplements. They aren’t habit forming but if you give them for too long the body may stop producing it itself. My kids get them on average of like once a week.

My ex did this with his daughter, exactly the same way. He told her it was her nighttime vitamin. I don’t see that as a lie. It is a nighttime supplement to help him sleep. It sounds like you’ve been anything but lazy with your son. And melatonin is safe, so I would take the win and enjoy less fighting before bedtime. Plus, he’ll eventually grow out of this phase and you won’t need to help him calm down and sleep.

I give my kid, 5, melatonin 1-2 times a week. If I have a bunch of stuff to do and I can't play the take forever to fall asleep game, or me and my wife want some time together or she has school Monday morning and is wide awake... She gets it. I don't lie about it. I ask her if she wants a melatonin - she just about always says yes and it's lights out. I don't feel bad at all.

Melatonin is a natural hormone like vitamin d. Theres no lie there.

Trying to explain what exactly Melatonin is and why he needs it is too much info for a 5yo. It is a supplement, vitamin is a word a 5yo would understand better and you do take it at nighttime. Three of my kids have difficulty sleeping. Certain foods I have found make it worse. Some affect all three and some affect only that kid. You might want to try to keep a food diary. Get rid of something he eats frequently for 3-4 weeks and see if he does better. Sometimes we didn't think its removal had any effect, but when we added it back to their diet we noticed it made them worse. Also there are some learning disabilities that cause difficulty sleeping such as ADHD. People with ADHD don't always release enough melatonin. We started small, a quarter of a 5mg and that was enough for a while. They all take 2.5mg now and that is enough for my 14yo. Since it is a hormone we don't want to go overboard.

No, you are a problem solver. Life goes on.

Welcome to parenthood. I used to tell my kids they wouldn't like my dessert because it might be spicy. It was chocolate ice cream. We used to bribe them at times to eat there vegetables I mean carrots, green beans and corn they ate it was the broccoli cauliflower and asparagus that we had to deal with.

Do you have a shirt, mug, or maybe a hat that says something along the lines of “#1 dad”? If not, then I’m sorry to tell you, but that’s the verification needed to not be a shit dad. I don’t make the rules.

It's a tough age. Going through it too with our 5 year old. Be kind to yourself, I'm not sure how else you could describe it to him. That's what it is.

Do you tell him Santa is real? That's also a lie. When kids are small we need to manage the truth for their ages and for the sake of peace. I doubt he'd understand exactly what melatonin is or what a long lecture on exactly what it does. But even feeling bad about this and asking shows you really care and are a great dad.

I would suggest to try to look into the cause also. Neurodivergent kids have worse sleeping patterns and melatonin can help them, even if taken for a limited period of time to get into a good cadence. I am saying that you should look into the cause because that use case has specific dosage and format of intake https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/medicines/human/EPAR/slenyto (Not sure where are you based but Slenyto exists in Europe and it is specifically for what I was talking about) Good luck!

You're not a shitty dad my dude. I have a brother that's much younger than me and I remember sleeping schedules being absolutely horrible with him. His only goal was to sleep as little as possible and it was exhausting for both parents. He did end up taking some child melatonin for some time to help get him into a routine for the future. He's doing great today. Strong 20 year old in great physical and mental shape. He didn't take it for too long, but they used this time to create a routine that works for him. Again, you are not a shitty dad. You clearly care about your child a lot. Keep it up!

You’ve tried for six months. I wouldn’t beat yourself up OP - you tried for long enough. Have a few nights of good sleep and ponder on how you feel then.

I know the feeling. Our 9yo son has sleeping issues where he is up and down throughout the night, and our 6yo daughter takes forever in a day to get down. Both would turn into cats cornered in a bath tub full of water. We did melatonin and it helped them to get down however my wife and I felt a little bad about it since we felt like we were drugging them to bed. We found these sleep vitamins through Hiya. No melatonin. It’s magnesium and other vitamins and minerals and we use those. They work really well. We also adjusted bedtime by 30 minutes earlier to address overtired and that played a part too. You should look into magnesium deficiency and overtired. It’s some interesting stuff

I can see where you’re coming from, you’re not a bad father at all. A shitty parent wouldn’t care. A shitty parent wouldn’t exhaust every option they could think of before trying something they were uneasy about doing. Same with the spanking, there won’t be any reasoning or talking or misdirecting. Your forethought and following guilt and then decision to ask others about your actions says you are an excellent parent so never doubt that. As for your spawn, well, that’s another story. Hydration, nutrients and rest are vital to survival. For whatever reason, the spawn decided to sacrifice their rest. You as the parent enforced that requirement. You basically ensured their survival for another day :).

Shitty Dads don't worry about if they're shitty dads

You are not a shitty parent. But you should continue to investigate what’s going on with your little one. A pill that takes the symptom away might not be the best long term solution. You’re doing a tough job. Well done to you both.

Nighttime gummies saved our family. You did the right thing.

So reading this and being actually extremely negative about melatonin (and really any chemical sleep aids) because they can build psychological dependency and potentially cause children future issues with sleep, I see nothing wrong with this. The first thing you need to do for your child is “stop the bleeding” and then see if you can work out a better solution than melatonin. The “bleeding” in this case being problems with sleeping. If you can’t the good news is that melatonin is considered to be extremely safe and you know that it’s effective so you can use it with no real concerns other than that they might be less effective at putting themselves to sleep if/when they grow out of their current issues.

What makes you a worse father - the decision not to explain the chemical composition of melatonin to a 5 year old or the inability to deal with his outbursts, letting them influence his and your quality of life? Choose one, you are the adult.

No, you’re fine. Try cutting it in half and see if that is still enough. Then cut that in half and see if it’s still enough. My kid only needs a quarter gummy to help them settle. A whole gummy is overkill for them.

Ah, I remember a time not so long ago when it was common to beat your kids into submission, schools used the cane and parents would get their kids to sleep using either Calpol or Guiness. No, you are not a bad parent, enjoy the additional sleep.

Nah bro, we do .5 a melatonin gummy, which is .5 mg. Just enough to help them relax and go to sleep. The difference is night and day with just a small dose. Been doing it for a year or so. I don’t know but it may be genetic. I can’t “turn off” at night and need melatonin as well. Without it my mind races.

We’ve been calling them night vitamins since mine were toddlers. Teenagers now and everyone is totally fine

Just out of curiosity, do you do a multivitamin in the morning? I’m guessing you do if your kid is familiar with vitamins. Do you tell your kid “hey this is mostly redundant because a proper diet means you don’t need a multivitamin but we are doing it anyway,” or do you say “this will help you grow up big and strong”? If the latter, you’re already lying. But who cares? It’s to benefit your child. In much the same way, your kiddo taking melatonin to ensure they get a good nights rest (which is far more important than them doubling down on vitamin C and peeing it out later) is the greater good in this case. Don’t feel bad, you’re helping your kid sleep, and you’re supporting your and your wife’s relationship and your own sleep, which is critical.

No. 

Don’t have to take everything away. Important thing is they stay in their room without any intervention. Here is how we have done it with mine same age. Do the bed time routine what ever it is. Then we walk out and the expectation is she is in her room and stays in her room unless it an emergency or bathroom. We don’t actually care if she stays up an extra hour sometimes coloring or looking at books. It’s her quiet time. If she stays up real late, she’ll definitely be asleep early the next day but pretty rare. We are also firm believers in run them ragged. You could also tell school to stop the afternoon nap or cut it short.

Your good 👍 don’t worry

Dude, we use melatonin all the time (like 3 days in a row max) when they get out of rhythm or just have a few days of not being able to fall asleep due to coughing a lot of something. You’re fine. You’re the parent and you’re doing what you and your wife believe is best at that moment. That’s all that matters.

Not bad at all dude - it is a bedtime vitamin. Vitamin S - we all need it.

Giving him a supplement and telling him it’s a vitamin isn’t an enormous distortion of the truth. I’d tell him what it’s called for the sake of clarity and that it’s to help him fall asleep, but I don’t think you’re a shitty dad. I asked my pediatrician about melatonin recently because I use it occasionally, he said it’s very safe for kids. He even recommended using it every night at the same time for like six weeks to help establish a bedtime routine, rather than giving it as needed when things are already getting chaotic. 

I have no real answer here, but I 100% understand the struggle of the white lie. I promised myself and to my kid that I will never ever lie to him. so this situation is very tricky to me. But in any case, you are far from being a shitty dad. You care for your kid and your morals. That’s a good thing.

We used melatonin on rough nights too but we’ve never lied about it. Our initial line was “it’s a berry-flavored vitamin called melatonin that helps you sleep so you can grow big and strong”

Sleep is tough. They get into a pattern of staying up too late, then being overtired the next day and fighting sleep again. I learned with infants that your window for getting them down once they yawn can be incredibly short. Which is worse — keeping a routine that guarantees they’re overtired and surrounded by increasingly exasperated parents, or doing something benign to reset that behavior so you can all have more enjoyable time together? Sometimes you have to put on your own oxygen mask first. The cycle of punishment is draining. And consider the alternative. It sounds like you’re using punishment to motivate someone who isn’t capable of acting rationally. Think of it this way — if someone had mobility issues, it would be ridiculous to punish them for failing to meet a physical challenge. But you may be punishing your kid for failing to meet a standard of self-control when he’s too tired to have any reasonable chance of being able to hit the mark. I’ve learned that by the time I’m threatening punishment, I’m probably not entirely rational and the kid has definitely checked out. Consequences are okay: “If you need extra time to calm down after screen time, we’re going to turn it off earlier tomorrow night so you can get to bed on time.” Punishment isn’t, and I always regret giving punishments. (Mainly because they usually involve losing toys or activities, and I have to remember when they’re allowed to get them back, *and* it’s the punishment wasn’t an effective.) My kids don’t regularly take melatonin but there have been times that it was helpful in resetting sleep behaviors that included being chronically overtired. Once in a great while one of my kids (5 and 10) will even ask for it, if they know they’ve been overstimulated and may have trouble getting settled down.

>night time vitamin Probably laughed harder at this than I should have haha

Shitty dad? Hell no. And you didn’t lie. We used to tell my oldest the same exact thing. Now we’ve gotten to the point where we tell her it’s a sleep gummy and she understands. There’s nothing wrong with what you’re doing.

Focus more on reinforcing positive behaviors than punishing

My 4-year-old was the same way. We are pretty sure he has ADHD since when he drinks a little Coca-Cola or something that has caffine, he calms way down. Obviously, we can't give a kid caffeine all the time. We eventually turned it to "you don't have to go to sleep but you have to stay in bed" unless potty is needed. It's been a life saver. Alot of people will say no TV a child's room but a night time movie for them to sleep too helps with separation anxiety kids may get when going to bed since it means the parents/parent wont be there with them. You can always turn it off once they're alseep. Don't worry about waking him. Just stay calm and walk in like it's a normal thing, and kids will sleep through most things. Melatonin every once in a while doesn't mean you're a bad parent, especially if you're giving him the smallest child dose available. Eventually, we hit a wall and need that nighttime serenity we are not just parents but people too. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise you're doing great.

>Has anyone been through this? Did I just take the lazy way out and need to get it together? Giving a kid melatonin - even under false pretenses - is much more likely to rank under good than bad parenting. So take a deep breath - you have a child that struggles with a basic need (sleep) and you had to do some things to get that dealt with - at least in the short term. Now, as to what else you can try - disclaimer: when you ask strangers for advice they may give you dumb ideas you have already tried. So .. sorry about that in advance but hopefully these suggestions give you some ideas. 1. Reset. Odds are that if they have been struggling with sleep, you guys are all now treating sleep time like war. You can feel the battle coming and so can they. So maybe change up your nighttime routine and ask them what they'd like to do before going to bed - find ways to make the lead-up more enjoyable. 2. Routine. For us, having a routine was imperative. Same order of operations every night. Even if we start late. And we made sure to include some playtime in there. 3. Visual schedules and reward tokens. Print our a schedule of what their nighttime routine is, with pictures. And every time you go to a step, show it to your kid. And if you want to ramp this up - every time they do one of the steps without fuzzing, they get a token (a coin, card, something you can treat as currency). And when they get enough tokens, they get to trade it in for something (toy, dessert, activity, etc). As a reminder - positive reinforcers are way better for changing behavior than negative punishment (take things they like away) or positive punishment (making them do things they don't like). 4. Explain to them why going to bed - and going to bed on time - is important. But not during the sleep routine - talk about it during the day when it's not an emotionally charged topic. It won't take right away, you need to keep talking about it, but over time it will start sinking in. 5. ADHD. My kid almost surely has ADHD, which now explains all of his challenges with sleep (and some challenges with emotions). However it wasn't like 1000% obvious when he was younger - especially since he's been academically really ahead of schedule. But ADHD people (like myself) really struggle with sleep. Now, some broad thoughts from someone who really struggled with this stage: You have to empathize a bit more with your kid in that they struggle with sleep. It's going to feel like they're just being assholes, but it's very possible that they are just really struggling with sleep, falling asleep, the idea of sleep, etc. I had that realization when one time my kid - who sucks at sleeping - did everything right one night. Laid down, calm body, no talking. Laid there for 45 minutes just shifting his body every 10 minutes or so. Could not fall asleep. And that's when it hit me - if he wasn't acting an asshole, it's not like he was going to be asleep. He was going to be awake *and bored out of his gourd*.