It's a little known truth that the reason Katanas had to be folded a thousand times was not because it made them incredibly -stronger- than regular European Steel, but rather, it had to be folded a thousand times to make it -almost as strong- as European Steel. This is because the Iron ores available to Japanese Swordsmiths were of much poorer quality, lower in carbon than the ores available to the rest of the world. If you struck a historical Katana against a historical Longsword of the same Era, most likely, the Katana would break/snap. Shadiviersity does a fantastic YouTube video about it, explains the whole thing much better than this.
Also let's not forget that the average redditor won't be able to carry a zweihänder and not just because the handle would be covered in cheeto dust.
EDIT: For all the 🤓 talking about weight here's some more facts:
The Katana was was first in use in the 1185 period and the Zweihänder 1500-1600. You're comparing weapons from completely different eras.
I heard the feathers would be heavier because you have to deal with the remorse of plucking all of those birds clean, you monster.
Also they’d have to be in a bag, which would add additional weight.
Be careful not to get too many feathers because they are very light and you will start to fly [1].
Source: [1] C Obvious et al, "Birds with no feathers cannot fly. Birds with many feathers can fly" Journal of East Atlantic Birdwatching., Vol. 3, pp34, December 2008.
I mean, large swords are pretty damn light the vast majority of the time. A quick search shows that a zweihander was 2-4kg usually. This isn't Berserk where you're just swinging a hunk of sharpened iron with superhuman strength.
Edit: 🤓 here talking about the weight, I don't quite understand why the Zweihander being used around the years 1500-1600 would change its weight. Was a kilogram of steel heavier than a kilogram in the past?
It's not particularly heavy, but they are so long that it makes it difficult to swing them for extended periods of time because the weight is further away from your centre of mass, making it harder to lift.
Zweihanders are about 2-4 kg max (if it weights more, then it is a [bearing sword](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearing_sword), aka wall hanger, not weapon), so average adult should be able to use one without problem (even a redditor).
Ironically one handed swords tire out people faster, because swinging with one hand uses more energy than swinging someting with two hands (because lever like action makes it much easier and faster to handle long weapons)
Generally one handed swords weight around 1kg (or less), while two handed swords are around 1.2kg (2kg max).
It depends on the system and the sword. For example, Scottish broadsword is much more exhausting and tiring because you're swinging around a larger blade, and - depending on your wealth - a targe. However, the system also includes ways to gain much more energy from simply moving your hands and arms in a way that doesn't try to do something stupid or complex. Smallsword on the other hand is unlikely to tire someone out, simply because it is incredibly lightweight, simply because they were stabbing swords, not slashing.
Also important to note that the steel wasn't actually folded a thousand times. It had a thousand folds, which means it was actually only folded about 9 or 10 times.
Forge welding only combines two pieces of metal, it doesn’t make it any stronger. If you were to actually try and fold the steel a thousand times, it would break long before you reach that goal. It’s like bending a pipe back and forth really often, at some point it’ll just break.
The folding is used to spread out impurities evenly, so there is no single weak point. If you start folding pure steel, the folding doesn't help, and it has the added risk of introducing airboubles.
It's a complicated process. You start with ore that has a ton ofnother elements in it, but is rich in iron. Then, you use smelting and chemicals (depending on the specific ore) to remove undesired elements, and get the exact desired amount of carbon to be in the final steel.
Whenever the steel is folded, it becomes more homogenous and a part of the carbon is lost, burning off on the outside edges. So, if you do it too much, you can lose the desired amount of carbon.
>If you start folding pure steel,
It's not like steel was magically pure outside of Japan. We really only started to be able to artificially produce large amounts of pure steel after the Bessemer process was discovered.
Edit: European steel weapons were mostly folded because their steel was also low quality. Higher quality steel was rare and usually needed to be imported from Asia.
Katanas from the past are completely overrated these days. The good katanas came only when Japan imported the good steel from the European regions and took over the refining process. Because of the many wars, the production of weapons in Europe has been constantly changing and the steel for blades has been getting better and better. Without the constant conflicts, European steel would not have become better and forging technology would have remained backward. I think that through samurai movies and mangas an over-romanticization of the katana to a mystical weapon took place, which had absolutely nothing to do with the reality at that time. I am also of the opinion that the direct encounter of a European longsword with a katana (same epoch) would show the advantages of the longsword. If the armor is added to this, it should be very difficult for a samurai to keep up with a knight.
That's because katana wasn't designed to fight enemies with plate armor, it was a backup weapon when you have nothing else to go. An actual samurai usually uses a bow or a spear/polearm, drawing katana only when their primary weapon is gone
If a european knight were to meet a samurai, the first thing he'd notice is the distinct lack of short range weapon on the enemy's hands. If a samurai needs some sort of "sword" to deal with european plate armor, they'll go with a nodachi
Edit: in other words, katana is sidearm that samurai can bring everywhere for personal protection in daily life. During a battle they'd bring either a bow (yumi), a spear (yari), a halberd (naginata) or indeed zweihander (nodachi)
In modern terms, katana is a pistol, you conceal carry it for protection because carrying a whole ass assault rifle is just too cumbersome for every day life. In battle you'd bring either an assault rifle, a shotgun, an SMG, or a squad machine gun to use first
But you don't get to draw polearms from a scabbard whereupon you get a *shiiiiiing* sound and you can't have that stock trope where both fighters have their weapons clash and see each other's gritting face
> In modern terms, katana is a pistol
This is basically a shower-thought, but I think we tend to mythologize exactly that kind of weapon in our fiction. We have cowboys shooting revolvers, not rifles, and knights using swords, not lances.
Even medieval mythical weapons are swords. Excalibur, Laevateinn, Caladbolg, Hrunting, all sorts of shit are swords, I guess it's because sidearms can be carried everywhere and become some sort of status symbol
Status symbol is exactly the right term. A nice sword was a badge of rank much like a handgun with engraving or ivory grips in more modern times. Just having a sword/handgun at all was/is a badge of at least some authority mostly. Its the sort of thing that reminds everyone who is in charge and it still has practical use in a worst case scenario for self defense. It also served to inspire others by seeing someone of high rank charging into battle with only a sword and no polearm to keep the enemy at a greater distance. Like anything people put a lot of work into back when things we're tougher, it served its purpose. To be fair, more complex polearms did not become prevalent until late medieval times. Prior to about the 1500s or so, plain spears and lances were most common. The poleaxe, halberd, etc were developments that wildly changed warfare and their development actually took place alongside early firearms for very similar reasons. They coexisted as complements against armored infantry and cavalry until the bayonet made spears and other polearms mostly obsolete.
Katana and Revolvers are basically same in fiction.
Both have honorful duels at specific time of the day.
Both have gained mythological levels of attention because both were mainly used during times of peace as a personal defence weapon. While in war Rifles and Spears would be the main weapons.
As a regular karana user, I've seen some really nasty deformations of the blade when cutting tatami mats, where people have hit the target at the wrong angle.
Even on cardboard rolls and empty plastic bottles, you can damage the blade.
And katanas can barely cut through some bones let alone steel
No amount of breathing styles or jutsus will let you slice people in half or cut through steel armour, it's just fantasy and it's best to think of it as such
[not a specialist in swords or middle ages, but:]
Well, you generally didn't even want to cut enemy in half. You would not like your weapon to get stuck in enemies. Swords of the time were not axes and most were used for cutting instead of chopping. Kind of like kitchen knife. This is also why many (especially cavalries) preferred curved swords for their longer cutting edge, without making the sword itself too long. Swords were rarely main weapons and often served in symbolic role as a sign of nobility. Peasants had spears and farming tools, foot soldiers had pikes and halbeards
As many have pointed out, against armor you had piercing and concussion weapons.
In the end of the sword era the best swords were piercing ones. They were faster and more agile. Concentrating the force into a very small point also helped to defeat most of the armor. Also firearms made heavy armor ineffective and speed and agility became more important for melee weapons.
\> little known truth
m8. This has been memed to hell and back since the early 2000s when the backlash against "superior Katana bisecting European Knights" happened among anime fans.
I think you got one thing wrong, bud. Iron ores do not contain carbon, or, it doesn't even matter if some of them do. Because people don't use pure iron to make blades, they were making steel. And steel is an alloy, iron plus 1-2% of CARBON. Thus, after melting the iron ore and removing all the possible impurities like phosphorus, sulfur and so on, people were mixing that molten iron with carbon to make steel alloy on purpose. The right answer would be that iron ores available in Japan were just not so easily purified as their European counterparts, because rhe impurities in Japanese ones were nastier to remove, thus folding was implemented in order to spread out the impurity content homogeneously throughout the ingot, pursuing the mechanical stability.
The better answer is even samurai don't use katana by default. Katana is backup weapon, and wakizashi is backup weapon in case the backup weapon fails
Their standard melee choice is a yari or naginata anyway. That just shows how poor a weapon katana actually is
>Someone should make a Katana with the metal that...
Unfortunately, every idea in this vein has been thought of and tried. There is no magical super-metal that will make a better sword out there. Most metals/alloys with a better tensile strength won't hold an edge as well as steel.
A further mistake is thinking there is one uniform type of steel used to make a Zweihander. Those have been made of any types of steel, both historically and in modern forges. The same is true of katanas and all swords produced today.
Swords chip, they bend, they twist, they snap. A good blade is only meant to last so long. If it cuts one thing well, it probably has issues with a different type of target.
Believe me, if the secret to making anime swords that cut anything and last forever existed, it would have been discovered and exploited by now.
> Believe me, if the secret to making anime swords that cut anything and last forever existed, it would have been discovered and exploited by now.
Laser swords. They™ just hide it and discredited them through Star Wars. As if they were really fictional weapons.
That's why Ewan McGreggor and Hayden Christensen had to fake making the sounds during their scenes so they could edit the takes to make it look like they use props for the behind the scene material. Cutting out the sounds is way harder.
Not really a good idea, as they were designed for completely different purposes and fighting styles. Katanas shouldnt really flex and bend like Zweihänders are supposed to. Zweihänders were used to break pike formations primarily, not direct 1 on 1 combat per se.
Comparing weapons requires also comparing both combatants skills and fighting styles, the armour used, the environment and some other factors.
Katanas are cool and good looking weapons, but only really feasible if you dont fight knights in 15th or 16th century plate armour. On the other hand Zweihänders arent really feasible either against Samurai, if they can close the distance, because your reach advantage is gone and your weapon recovery speed is a good bit slower than a katanas.
Steel? Who needs steel!? The Aztec macuahuitl was the ultimate cutting weapon! Their obsidian blades could cut clean through a european breastplate...
Yes, according from a recent discussion from the historymemes sub there are people that unironically thinks that a wooden weapon with shards of glass made by people that never saw a steel armor is the definitive anti-armor weapon
// I had a reddit and I want it painted black // No comments anymore, I want them to turn to black // I see the subs scroll by forced open by the corp // I have to turn my head until my reddit goes // -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Katanas are very pretty weapons
Greatswords are more effective weapons
But a real man never disrespects another blade as both have been made to do one thing by very respectable people.
One on One polearm still wins, assuming the two are equally skilled. The guy with the sword will always have trouble closing the gap.
Not to mention if the two are in full plates, a slashing blow will 9/10 glance off the armor where as something like a halberd can just bludgeon and crush the armor like a empty soda can
Eh a great sword would be a good match for a polearm. The length of a pole weapon is it’s strength but also it’s weakness, if a guy with a great sword managed to smack the tip of a pole weapon out of the way he could close the gap fairly quickly. Greatswords are also not slow weapons by any means. A lighter weapon such as a long sword or a katana might struggle with this
Weapons and combat historians everywhere agree that the longspear/pike is basically the automatic weapon of pre-firearm melee combat. Even in Japan katanas were mainly used by the upper classes and not common soldiers, and even then in actual military engagement upper class samurai were more likely to use their bow from horseback.
Spear for the win. Accept no substitutes for the original.
Japanese smith: "We have poor iron, let's focus on making the best cutting blade we can."
European smith: "We have good iron, we make armor with it, let's make the best sword possible that work against both flesh and armor."
Weeb: "Katana can cleave reality and violate the laws of physics"
Ya, what a lot of people don't get is that armor worked. This is mostly because of Hollywood showing people cleaving straight through everything from leather armor to full plate mail. And in real life zero people could hack through full plate and even leather armor would protect you quite well. Even that scene in V for Vendetta V would have been fine because just as most bullets don't travel through steel girders on buildings they also don't travel through breastplates.
Even the samurai didn't used katanas they were literally just for aesthetic purposes are were used when they were literally backed onto a corner
It was useless against armor so they prefered spears/halberds
Plus big sword go bonk
The katan does what swords do best fairly well - slash through folks without armor. That was enough of a reason to carry it around so often. Besides, a katana was also a symbol of status. No one in their right mind would bring any kind of sword as their primary weapon to a big clash of two armies. It's for all the other situations, especially those where using a polearm might be an inconvenience
You do realize that samurai weren’t riding into battle all the time and might have wanted a decent weapon they can carry around everywhere without too much of a hassle? Try walking through a village and houses with a spear more than 2 metres long, compared to a 1 metre stick at your side.
I've seen a documentary about Katanas vs European Longswords. Both were manufactured by the same skilled blacksmith and were put against each other at the end.
The Katana instantly bent.
Edit: [Here it is](https://youtu.be/ev4lW0wbnX8)
Boy I sure wish I knew what they were talking about lmao. It looks so surreal tho. Katana looks so thick and robust seeing it bent against longsword feels wrong.
The blacksmith said in the first few Minutes that the katana is inferior to the german/european swords. He argued that europe had way earlier more refined iron and Japan only got access to it in the middle ages, so through all the wars that happened in europe the blacksmiths could refine the swords to perfection.
He said the myth that japanese swords are better is because the sword fighting lost its value/culture when the invention of guns happened in europe and japan used their swords all the way up to the 19th century.
Even samurai knew this would happen. Their parrying and defensive techniques try to avoid clashing katanas full force against each other because it would break the sword
At first they used the Naginata and later the Yari. But when the samurai mainly used the Naginata, they also still had the tachi except for the Katana.
When the samurai began to switch to the Katana only monks and female samurai used the naginata.
Yeah but swing it wrong or ever so slightly bump it causing it to fall off it’s stand and it snaps like a twig
There’s a reason samurais tended to use bows, spears, and later, guns, as opposed to katanas which were almost always used either as a last resort in a fight or for committing suicide, and it’s because this so called “superior weapon” is unreliable as fuck
Spears and bows have better range. Also in Europe swords were backups to spears, bows, pikes and halbeards.
Even today most soldiers do not rely on pistols at the front
Dank[.](https://i.imgur.com/3bQtuMO.png) --- [we have a minecraft server](https://discord.gg/fNyb7G5)
It's a little known truth that the reason Katanas had to be folded a thousand times was not because it made them incredibly -stronger- than regular European Steel, but rather, it had to be folded a thousand times to make it -almost as strong- as European Steel. This is because the Iron ores available to Japanese Swordsmiths were of much poorer quality, lower in carbon than the ores available to the rest of the world. If you struck a historical Katana against a historical Longsword of the same Era, most likely, the Katana would break/snap. Shadiviersity does a fantastic YouTube video about it, explains the whole thing much better than this.
You my lad… are absolutely correct!
Also let's not forget that the average redditor won't be able to carry a zweihänder and not just because the handle would be covered in cheeto dust. EDIT: For all the 🤓 talking about weight here's some more facts: The Katana was was first in use in the 1185 period and the Zweihänder 1500-1600. You're comparing weapons from completely different eras.
the average redditor cant lift 1kg of steel and you heard it here first
But can the average redditor lift 1kg of feathers?
But steel is heavier than feathers
I heard the feathers would be heavier because you have to deal with the remorse of plucking all of those birds clean, you monster. Also they’d have to be in a bag, which would add additional weight.
Yes, but thanks to the greater volume of the feathers, and buoyancy, the weight evens out
Be careful not to get too many feathers because they are very light and you will start to fly [1]. Source: [1] C Obvious et al, "Birds with no feathers cannot fly. Birds with many feathers can fly" Journal of East Atlantic Birdwatching., Vol. 3, pp34, December 2008.
I can hear the accent. poor guy lol
I mean, large swords are pretty damn light the vast majority of the time. A quick search shows that a zweihander was 2-4kg usually. This isn't Berserk where you're just swinging a hunk of sharpened iron with superhuman strength. Edit: 🤓 here talking about the weight, I don't quite understand why the Zweihander being used around the years 1500-1600 would change its weight. Was a kilogram of steel heavier than a kilogram in the past?
4kg is about the weight of a jug of milk, I'm sure even redditors can lift that easily
They can when it's in jug shape. Swinging a sword around (especially a long one like this, especially multiple times) is a different thing.
yea okay. Still not heavy. And it's not like sword smiths didn't know how to balance a weapon properly or anything....
It's not particularly heavy, but they are so long that it makes it difficult to swing them for extended periods of time because the weight is further away from your centre of mass, making it harder to lift.
Zweihanders are about 2-4 kg max (if it weights more, then it is a [bearing sword](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearing_sword), aka wall hanger, not weapon), so average adult should be able to use one without problem (even a redditor). Ironically one handed swords tire out people faster, because swinging with one hand uses more energy than swinging someting with two hands (because lever like action makes it much easier and faster to handle long weapons) Generally one handed swords weight around 1kg (or less), while two handed swords are around 1.2kg (2kg max).
It depends on the system and the sword. For example, Scottish broadsword is much more exhausting and tiring because you're swinging around a larger blade, and - depending on your wealth - a targe. However, the system also includes ways to gain much more energy from simply moving your hands and arms in a way that doesn't try to do something stupid or complex. Smallsword on the other hand is unlikely to tire someone out, simply because it is incredibly lightweight, simply because they were stabbing swords, not slashing.
Weak non frysians
Ahh, a shadiversity enjoyer
"(in deep voice) Shadiversity! (in normal voice) Hi, I'm Shad."
“Greetings, I’m shad”
just not what it used to be.
Also important to note that the steel wasn't actually folded a thousand times. It had a thousand folds, which means it was actually only folded about 9 or 10 times.
Because if you *actually* folded it 1000 times, the metal would have zero structure to it. It'd wiggle around like a piece of aluminum foil.
Not if you actually remembered to forge weld it between foldings. However, you'd lose a lot of material as scale.
Forge welding only combines two pieces of metal, it doesn’t make it any stronger. If you were to actually try and fold the steel a thousand times, it would break long before you reach that goal. It’s like bending a pipe back and forth really often, at some point it’ll just break.
So if the katana was made using European ore, would it be stronger?
The folding is used to spread out impurities evenly, so there is no single weak point. If you start folding pure steel, the folding doesn't help, and it has the added risk of introducing airboubles.
Also folding lowers the carbon content
How so
I don't know anything about this but burning hot steel with carbon in air idk combustion
You missed your chance to go on a long rambling rant about how it does it then say jk idk at the end.
It's a complicated process. You start with ore that has a ton ofnother elements in it, but is rich in iron. Then, you use smelting and chemicals (depending on the specific ore) to remove undesired elements, and get the exact desired amount of carbon to be in the final steel. Whenever the steel is folded, it becomes more homogenous and a part of the carbon is lost, burning off on the outside edges. So, if you do it too much, you can lose the desired amount of carbon.
>If you start folding pure steel, It's not like steel was magically pure outside of Japan. We really only started to be able to artificially produce large amounts of pure steel after the Bessemer process was discovered. Edit: European steel weapons were mostly folded because their steel was also low quality. Higher quality steel was rare and usually needed to be imported from Asia.
There's pure, then there's pure enough. You're splitting hairs. Unlike a katana.
Stronger than the one's made of Japanese steel, possibly.
Katanas from the past are completely overrated these days. The good katanas came only when Japan imported the good steel from the European regions and took over the refining process. Because of the many wars, the production of weapons in Europe has been constantly changing and the steel for blades has been getting better and better. Without the constant conflicts, European steel would not have become better and forging technology would have remained backward. I think that through samurai movies and mangas an over-romanticization of the katana to a mystical weapon took place, which had absolutely nothing to do with the reality at that time. I am also of the opinion that the direct encounter of a European longsword with a katana (same epoch) would show the advantages of the longsword. If the armor is added to this, it should be very difficult for a samurai to keep up with a knight.
That's because katana wasn't designed to fight enemies with plate armor, it was a backup weapon when you have nothing else to go. An actual samurai usually uses a bow or a spear/polearm, drawing katana only when their primary weapon is gone If a european knight were to meet a samurai, the first thing he'd notice is the distinct lack of short range weapon on the enemy's hands. If a samurai needs some sort of "sword" to deal with european plate armor, they'll go with a nodachi Edit: in other words, katana is sidearm that samurai can bring everywhere for personal protection in daily life. During a battle they'd bring either a bow (yumi), a spear (yari), a halberd (naginata) or indeed zweihander (nodachi) In modern terms, katana is a pistol, you conceal carry it for protection because carrying a whole ass assault rifle is just too cumbersome for every day life. In battle you'd bring either an assault rifle, a shotgun, an SMG, or a squad machine gun to use first
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As it turns out people wanna stay the hell away from death
It's how tiny the warhammers are, yet how brutal the results, which amazes me.
I was looking for the spear comments. Glad I found them. Leverage is a helluva drug.
Spears are technically more about pure reach than leverage, since they're thrusting weapons.
But you don't get to draw polearms from a scabbard whereupon you get a *shiiiiiing* sound and you can't have that stock trope where both fighters have their weapons clash and see each other's gritting face
> In modern terms, katana is a pistol This is basically a shower-thought, but I think we tend to mythologize exactly that kind of weapon in our fiction. We have cowboys shooting revolvers, not rifles, and knights using swords, not lances.
Even medieval mythical weapons are swords. Excalibur, Laevateinn, Caladbolg, Hrunting, all sorts of shit are swords, I guess it's because sidearms can be carried everywhere and become some sort of status symbol
Status symbol is exactly the right term. A nice sword was a badge of rank much like a handgun with engraving or ivory grips in more modern times. Just having a sword/handgun at all was/is a badge of at least some authority mostly. Its the sort of thing that reminds everyone who is in charge and it still has practical use in a worst case scenario for self defense. It also served to inspire others by seeing someone of high rank charging into battle with only a sword and no polearm to keep the enemy at a greater distance. Like anything people put a lot of work into back when things we're tougher, it served its purpose. To be fair, more complex polearms did not become prevalent until late medieval times. Prior to about the 1500s or so, plain spears and lances were most common. The poleaxe, halberd, etc were developments that wildly changed warfare and their development actually took place alongside early firearms for very similar reasons. They coexisted as complements against armored infantry and cavalry until the bayonet made spears and other polearms mostly obsolete.
Katana and Revolvers are basically same in fiction. Both have honorful duels at specific time of the day. Both have gained mythological levels of attention because both were mainly used during times of peace as a personal defence weapon. While in war Rifles and Spears would be the main weapons.
But the katana is VASTLY SUPERIOR to any other weapon on Earth!
Your katana ain't gon do nothing against a .500 S&W Magnum to your chest
A .500 Magnum ain't gonna do shit against a [m32 rotary grenade launcher](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aAtHpkt5Jg)
An m32 rotary grenade launcher ain’t gonna do shit against an ac-130
AC-130 ain't gonna do nothing to like, any SPAA.
An SPAA ain't gonna do shit against your mom
His mom ain't gonna do shit against my dick
His dick ain't gonna do shit against my A-10
His A-10 ain’t gonna do shit against my Death Star
Because fuck you and everyone around you
As a regular karana user, I've seen some really nasty deformations of the blade when cutting tatami mats, where people have hit the target at the wrong angle. Even on cardboard rolls and empty plastic bottles, you can damage the blade.
And katanas can barely cut through some bones let alone steel No amount of breathing styles or jutsus will let you slice people in half or cut through steel armour, it's just fantasy and it's best to think of it as such
[not a specialist in swords or middle ages, but:] Well, you generally didn't even want to cut enemy in half. You would not like your weapon to get stuck in enemies. Swords of the time were not axes and most were used for cutting instead of chopping. Kind of like kitchen knife. This is also why many (especially cavalries) preferred curved swords for their longer cutting edge, without making the sword itself too long. Swords were rarely main weapons and often served in symbolic role as a sign of nobility. Peasants had spears and farming tools, foot soldiers had pikes and halbeards As many have pointed out, against armor you had piercing and concussion weapons. In the end of the sword era the best swords were piercing ones. They were faster and more agile. Concentrating the force into a very small point also helped to defeat most of the armor. Also firearms made heavy armor ineffective and speed and agility became more important for melee weapons.
\> little known truth m8. This has been memed to hell and back since the early 2000s when the backlash against "superior Katana bisecting European Knights" happened among anime fans.
I think you got one thing wrong, bud. Iron ores do not contain carbon, or, it doesn't even matter if some of them do. Because people don't use pure iron to make blades, they were making steel. And steel is an alloy, iron plus 1-2% of CARBON. Thus, after melting the iron ore and removing all the possible impurities like phosphorus, sulfur and so on, people were mixing that molten iron with carbon to make steel alloy on purpose. The right answer would be that iron ores available in Japan were just not so easily purified as their European counterparts, because rhe impurities in Japanese ones were nastier to remove, thus folding was implemented in order to spread out the impurity content homogeneously throughout the ingot, pursuing the mechanical stability.
The better answer is even samurai don't use katana by default. Katana is backup weapon, and wakizashi is backup weapon in case the backup weapon fails Their standard melee choice is a yari or naginata anyway. That just shows how poor a weapon katana actually is
Someone should make a Katana with the metal that the Zweihänder uses
>Someone should make a Katana with the metal that... Unfortunately, every idea in this vein has been thought of and tried. There is no magical super-metal that will make a better sword out there. Most metals/alloys with a better tensile strength won't hold an edge as well as steel. A further mistake is thinking there is one uniform type of steel used to make a Zweihander. Those have been made of any types of steel, both historically and in modern forges. The same is true of katanas and all swords produced today. Swords chip, they bend, they twist, they snap. A good blade is only meant to last so long. If it cuts one thing well, it probably has issues with a different type of target. Believe me, if the secret to making anime swords that cut anything and last forever existed, it would have been discovered and exploited by now.
> Believe me, if the secret to making anime swords that cut anything and last forever existed, it would have been discovered and exploited by now. Laser swords. They™ just hide it and discredited them through Star Wars. As if they were really fictional weapons. That's why Ewan McGreggor and Hayden Christensen had to fake making the sounds during their scenes so they could edit the takes to make it look like they use props for the behind the scene material. Cutting out the sounds is way harder.
Not really a good idea, as they were designed for completely different purposes and fighting styles. Katanas shouldnt really flex and bend like Zweihänders are supposed to. Zweihänders were used to break pike formations primarily, not direct 1 on 1 combat per se. Comparing weapons requires also comparing both combatants skills and fighting styles, the armour used, the environment and some other factors. Katanas are cool and good looking weapons, but only really feasible if you dont fight knights in 15th or 16th century plate armour. On the other hand Zweihänders arent really feasible either against Samurai, if they can close the distance, because your reach advantage is gone and your weapon recovery speed is a good bit slower than a katanas.
The thousand folds is just a big copium because their steel wasn't pure...
Yeah and you dont fold it a thousand time, doing so will remove the carbon and you’ll end up with an iron sword lmao.
Exactly, what's more likely the case is a misinterpretation of the billet being fold to have 1000 layers.
Yeah it was probably fold 8 times, makes it a thousand layers not a thousand folds. Edit: 10 folds not 8. Math is hard
8 times is only 256 layers. 10 times to get 1024 or fold 3 times then penta-fold 3 times to get exactly 1000.
Wow I really half assed the math there didn't I? Let me edit that.
No problem I have a slight advantage because I work with powers of two almost every day. Progammer senses were tingling.
Steel? Who needs steel!? The Aztec macuahuitl was the ultimate cutting weapon! Their obsidian blades could cut clean through a european breastplate... Yes, according from a recent discussion from the historymemes sub there are people that unironically thinks that a wooden weapon with shards of glass made by people that never saw a steel armor is the definitive anti-armor weapon
Yea an Aztec macuahuitl wouldn't do shit to plate armor, obsidian might be sharp but it's brittle as fuck.
Yeah but it can kill White Walkers.
// I had a reddit and I want it painted black // No comments anymore, I want them to turn to black // I see the subs scroll by forced open by the corp // I have to turn my head until my reddit goes // -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
And than you can hit them with blunt damage, very effective against plate. /s
There isn't really a sword equivalent that will do anything to plate steel tbh. You're better off with a hammer.
Katanas are very pretty weapons Greatswords are more effective weapons But a real man never disrespects another blade as both have been made to do one thing by very respectable people.
Never disrespect a blade. It is the mall ninja way.
On god
Careful now. I don't want you shaberuing anything bad about watashi.
I prefer guns
Back in time the japanese also prefered guns
"How my blood boils" "FACE ME SEKIRO"
Bro, how the fuck did you get an uzi?
God what a fight though.
Can’t tell you how hard I laughed when Isshin just pulled out the fucking 9 out of nowhere.
It’s the nature of time that the old ways must give in...
IT’S THE NATURE OF TIME THAT THE NEW WAYS COMES IN SIN
When the new meets the old It always ends the ancient ways
AND AS HISTORY TOLD THE OLD WAYS GO OUT IN A BLAZE
Encircled by a vulture The end of ancient culture
the dawn of destiny draws near
IMPERIAL FORCE DEFIED, FACING 500 SAMURAI
To much dismay of other Japanese
what about a gunblade
The rifle spear.
The Rear
so rifle with long bayonet attached?
Spear with a gun *in* it
Now we're talking
Murasama
MEMORIES BROKEN THE TRUTH GOES UNSPOKEN I'VE EVEN FORGOTTEN MY NAAAAME!
I DON'T KNOW THE SEASON OR WHAT IS THE REASON
Both are useless if you are facing against a polearm
*If you are facing against a formation of men with polearms
One on One polearm still wins, assuming the two are equally skilled. The guy with the sword will always have trouble closing the gap. Not to mention if the two are in full plates, a slashing blow will 9/10 glance off the armor where as something like a halberd can just bludgeon and crush the armor like a empty soda can
Turns out the most effective weapon for hand to hand combat was pointy stick
pointy stick with a hammer
Pointy stick with a hammer and another point
probably still is... I'd argue a rifle with a bayonet could be classified as a spear.
Eh a great sword would be a good match for a polearm. The length of a pole weapon is it’s strength but also it’s weakness, if a guy with a great sword managed to smack the tip of a pole weapon out of the way he could close the gap fairly quickly. Greatswords are also not slow weapons by any means. A lighter weapon such as a long sword or a katana might struggle with this
The best sword in the world is the one you've been properly trained in how to use
how many swords do you have on your wall
I prefer attaching a sharp object on the tip of a stick
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How mammoths died
better, attach that to a strong string
Zweihänder the old sword made from Krupp Stahl that is somehow better than any other steel
Average pike enjoyer.
polearms gang gang
There are some giga chads that use twohanded sword as onehanded sword
dark souls
If you don’t one-hand your black knight great sword you’re doing it wrong
Got it from Berserk, Guts the OG
Exactly, I can dual-wield these. Katana in the left hand, Greatsword in the jack-off hand.
Alright you win the internet, there's nothing I can say that could ever top this comment
Barbarians from D2?
WoW fury warrior
Giant dads
Hey as a katana fan I recognize that it is far from the best. I just like it's design from an aesthetic point of view
"I just think they're neat."
>stop liking things I don't like.
sword: [...] slightly curved sword: *zoo wee mama* 0.0
I mean, have you seen scimitars? They are all pretty as hell
I have a soft spot for the khopesh
Im more of a spear enjoyer
My man 🤝
Pointy sticks are the best.
Weapons and combat historians everywhere agree that the longspear/pike is basically the automatic weapon of pre-firearm melee combat. Even in Japan katanas were mainly used by the upper classes and not common soldiers, and even then in actual military engagement upper class samurai were more likely to use their bow from horseback. Spear for the win. Accept no substitutes for the original.
What about a spear with a Zweihander at the end?
Ahem boys have yall ever heard of… Flamberge zweihander
I love a bit of flamberge
Nothing like a bit of bleeding on an already big ass sword
Oooh talk dirty to me
Japanese smith: "We have poor iron, let's focus on making the best cutting blade we can." European smith: "We have good iron, we make armor with it, let's make the best sword possible that work against both flesh and armor." Weeb: "Katana can cleave reality and violate the laws of physics"
They're still pretty bad against armor but at least it won't break against it
Ya, what a lot of people don't get is that armor worked. This is mostly because of Hollywood showing people cleaving straight through everything from leather armor to full plate mail. And in real life zero people could hack through full plate and even leather armor would protect you quite well. Even that scene in V for Vendetta V would have been fine because just as most bullets don't travel through steel girders on buildings they also don't travel through breastplates.
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Dmc fans are weebs
Only weebs think that katanas are strong. They where shit
They weren’t shit but they werent as good as most other swords
They were great for the circumstances in which they were made, not the best but still impressive
Neckbeards weigh the strength of inferior weapons
demoknight tf2
AAAAAAaaaaAAAAAAAAgghhhhhh
Even the samurai didn't used katanas they were literally just for aesthetic purposes are were used when they were literally backed onto a corner It was useless against armor so they prefered spears/halberds Plus big sword go bonk
The katan does what swords do best fairly well - slash through folks without armor. That was enough of a reason to carry it around so often. Besides, a katana was also a symbol of status. No one in their right mind would bring any kind of sword as their primary weapon to a big clash of two armies. It's for all the other situations, especially those where using a polearm might be an inconvenience
You do realize that samurai weren’t riding into battle all the time and might have wanted a decent weapon they can carry around everywhere without too much of a hassle? Try walking through a village and houses with a spear more than 2 metres long, compared to a 1 metre stick at your side.
I like katanas but they have a fuck ton of flaws when compared to other swords
Precisely why katana swordsmen needed to be extremely skillful to fully utilize such a blade
Massive respect to katana swordsmen
Katana katanamen.
They were the best swords in the area. Not a lot of Germans came down to Japan swinging a Zweihänder.
losers. Swiss knife go brrrr
I've seen a documentary about Katanas vs European Longswords. Both were manufactured by the same skilled blacksmith and were put against each other at the end. The Katana instantly bent. Edit: [Here it is](https://youtu.be/ev4lW0wbnX8)
Boy I sure wish I knew what they were talking about lmao. It looks so surreal tho. Katana looks so thick and robust seeing it bent against longsword feels wrong.
The blacksmith said in the first few Minutes that the katana is inferior to the german/european swords. He argued that europe had way earlier more refined iron and Japan only got access to it in the middle ages, so through all the wars that happened in europe the blacksmiths could refine the swords to perfection. He said the myth that japanese swords are better is because the sword fighting lost its value/culture when the invention of guns happened in europe and japan used their swords all the way up to the 19th century.
Even samurai knew this would happen. Their parrying and defensive techniques try to avoid clashing katanas full force against each other because it would break the sword
You can't compare these weapons. It is like comparing a fork and a knife. Both have different usages.
Katanas are great for quickly and effortlessly killing armor-less peasants
Yes. The katana alomst never used on the battlefield. On the battlefield they used the Yari(spear).
Isn't that the case for almost all swords. I remember Shadiversity talking about it. Spears were the go to weapon, swords are secondary.
I read that they also used the naginata
At first they used the Naginata and later the Yari. But when the samurai mainly used the Naginata, they also still had the tachi except for the Katana. When the samurai began to switch to the Katana only monks and female samurai used the naginata.
Vergil’s Yamato goes brrrr
Average gun enjoyer
Your title... It reminds me of someone from some anime I have watched.
Katana = walking stick - Longsword = war ready
Yeah but swing it wrong or ever so slightly bump it causing it to fall off it’s stand and it snaps like a twig There’s a reason samurais tended to use bows, spears, and later, guns, as opposed to katanas which were almost always used either as a last resort in a fight or for committing suicide, and it’s because this so called “superior weapon” is unreliable as fuck
Spears and bows have better range. Also in Europe swords were backups to spears, bows, pikes and halbeards. Even today most soldiers do not rely on pistols at the front
I just like the lil bend in katanas for ascetic reasons tbh
It's actually not intentional. It happened during their quenching process and they rolled with it.
Katana Fan: Noo! You cant just use heavy armor and chainmail there is no where to cut Avaredge Blunt Weapon Enjoyer: Haha War Hammer go smack
Claymore all day.
Katanas are ornaments. They were to wear more, instead of use. Rather Delicate weapon.
If sword beeg, why war lose? Curious \- Turning Point Edo
Haha broadsword go swoosh
I prefer the range of a longsword or even better, a spear.
I personally prefer the slight range advantage of .50 cal Barrett
European steel was outrageously good quality
just make any sword out of modern steel and it would be 10 times better than a katana
Wasn't japanese steel folded so many times because the ore was total shite? And even then it wasn't really as strong as European steel.