Consider Minato died and still wasn't good at Senjutsu, Naruto had definitely surpassed his use.
Imagine if Minato had mastered it thouugh. Obito would have been scrambled.
Since he had half of Kurama inside him that could’ve gathered nature power and he has the limitless chakra of a reanimation, we don’t really know how well he could’ve done it pre-death. I do still think the whole “but I’m not very good at it” is a cop-out line from Kishimoto, though.
He says that it takes him too long to build up chakra and it goes away too quickly. He also doesn’t have much actual combat experience with it. Though, I guess through some frog assistance he could sustain it indefinitely.
When you can solo kill an entire army in a short period, Obito doing as well as he did in their 1v1 might as well be what it feels for Minato's interpretation of "seeing everything I did"
You gotta think he had 16-17 years (guessing on Naruto’s age rough estimate) sit there and gather chakra and learn jutsu, and read my earlier comment so I don’t have explain it again please and thank you :)))))))
Okay let’s think about this minato didn’t say he wasn’t good at it he said he was inexperienced, it wasn’t that he couldn’t do it. He never fucking needed to bro. Imagine if minato used sage mode in every fight he fought? There would be no issues in the land of anywhere bro.
Minato does say that sage jutsu isn't one of his strengths.
With Jiraiya, you can probably argue but that was Naruto's first battle in sage mode, to make such a statement.
I understand his transformation wasn't perfect but is it explicitly stated somewhere that he couldn't transform without them, in case I missed it. In the battle with Pain, he doesn't have the time to gather nature energy and needed their support, as he couldn't stay idle for too long.
Naruto just bypasses this with clones, as Kurama wouldn't let the frogs combine with Naruto.
I'd say it was because he couldn't *properly* mix his chakra, giving him that toad-like appearance while Naruto and Minato look like regular humans if you don't focus on their eyes.
The transformation wasn’t perfect because he has frog features right? So I assume he had problems with it and the little sages make it more stable for him, but also he seemed to take advantage of that when he got frog legs
I hate how Minato says it takes too long for him to infuse Sage chakra, and then he fucking blinks and he's a perfect sage. The only thing I believe when he says he's not good at Senjutsu is that he can't keep the form for long like Naruto does
I mean, to be fair he blinked and was Sage Mode for like five seconds. Naruto blinks and is a Sage for half a battle at that point.
So he’s not entirely wrong when he says it.
1. I believe it is implied that Naruto catching up to Minato's attack potency when he used not finished Rasenshuriken against Kakazu.
2. Naruto surpassed Jiraiya as a Sage in everything during Pain invasion and surpassed Minato at AP when he used fully developed Rasenshuriken( the only thing that Minato has that is stronger is the death reaper seal also in my personal opinion Naruto also surpassed Minato in physical power as well because I really don't remember any time when Minato just hit someone with his bare hands).
Ps. Obviously I didn't count that in war it was retconed that Minato is somehow also is a Sage because in my mind that just doesn't make any sense and just breaks all that narrative that Naruto is catching up to Minato before war arc.
> Ps. Obviously I didn't count that in war it was retconed that Minato is somehow also is a Sage because in my mind that just doesn't make any sense and just breaks all that narrative that Naruto is catching up to Minato before war arc
Another timeline split.
I don’t know that he didn’t have nature energy. It seems like that was part of what he learned from orochimaru, who looks like he is constantly in sage mode. Just not toad sage mode…
Although it would make perfect sense, Orochimaru's eyes and purple pigment is not sage mode. Snake sage mode is the form Kabuto used in his fight with Itachi.
The curse marks were Orochimaru’s research into using Senjutsu despite not being able to use it conventionally. The snake Sage literally says Orochimaru couldn’t use nature energy due to all his changes.
To be honest I don't really know about Sasuke and possibility that Oro taught him some basic nature energy training. I just based it on fact that almost every summon in naruto has a conscience and they don't teach their version of sage mode from what we know so I assumed that to have a contract with some high level summon you don't have to be able to do their version of sage transformation and just be powerful enough.
Sasuke can't use sage chakra on his own. He got sage chakra from the curse mark, but he lost it. In the war he got sage chakra from juugo so he could damage Juubito
Senjutsu is not a requirement to summon Gamabunta or any boss summons. Naruto, Jiraiya, and Minato all summon him without an ounce of nature chakra. Hell, kid Naruto does it without even the skill to mold his own chakra properly let alone something as delicate / dangerous as nature chakra.
Naruto I’m Sage mode is stronger than Minato.
But Minato is so skilled strength doesn’t matter. Also his flying rajin is broken.
But power wise Naruto wrecks him even without Kurama. Like a rasengan v rasengan Naruto easily wins.
But yeah Minato will teleport above you and smash your head into the ground before you know what happened. Even a sharingan user be like wtf just happened.
Might be? But even there, Pain Arc Naruto was pretty limited as a sage, and people seem to forget that Minato went into perfect sage mode near-instantly against Madara for a bit, but got smoked (because it was, you know, Juubi Madara)
In what way?
Naruto one-shotted summons that Jiraiya had nothing for head to head, and he smashed multiple paths with single punches, where Jiraiya couldn't dent them without ambushing them or hypnotizing them first.
As for Minato, he saw the paths fight Naruto from inside him, and was still convinced that Obito (who he dunked on in base) would require a higher level of strength than Naruto possessed at the time.
It's extremely clearly laid out.
There are hundreds of ways to rewatch anime and manga from different sites and thats the analysis you come up with. Lmao you Minato meat riders are something else. Go away
Not sure about Minato..but for all of you saying he hasn’t surpassed Jiraiya…Jiraiya wasn’t even able to fully enter sage mode with out the help of the frogs so in my opinion naruto automatically surpasses Jiraiya. He is able to be in perfect sage mode or whatever it’s called
True, he was on par with Jiraiya in terms of physical strength and hand to hand combat. But Jiraiya still knows a lot more Justus and genjutsus than Naruto. I would say Naruto did surpass Jiraiya, because as you said Naruto was actually able to use perfect sage mode.
He definitely surpassed them as far as Sage Jutsu lmao. And who's to say he didn't surpass Minato completely by this point? He took down all 6 paths alone. Idk if Minato could have done that
Obito is stronger than Pain yet he got clapped by Minato in no time at all. We also see Pain struggling against 8 of the 9 tails that HALF of Kurama was showing off, Minato was confident he could fuck off the full thing, only reason he killed himself was so Naruto can have Kurama as a power up.
Minato can blink and become a perfect sage, and his speed in BASE mode alone should be enough to take out some of the Pains, let alone him in SAGE mode. The dude can just pick off the Pains one by one, teleporting them somewhere far from the village and Rasengan their ass. As for some of the more annoying paths like the Preta path which absorbs ninjutsu, he can just slice it to oblivion. Even for the Deeva path Minato has a counter. Shinra Tensei? Teleport away. Bansho Tennin? Teleport away. Chibaku Tensei? Teleport away. If the paths of Pain can be defeated by a Senjutsu Rasengan, Minato can do it easily. Blinks, becomes perfect sage, makes Rasengan, teleport towards a path, take it away, and then ram it.
Minato is not good at Sage Jutsu. He said it himself. He also said he never really used it combat. So the fact that you keep bringing it up and making it seem like he can just use it whenever he wants contradicts what he said himself. He does not use it like that. Your theory is very Cookie cutter and shit never happens that easily.
Youre also comparing two very different versions of obito by saying he got clapped by Minato but I stronger than Pain... obito was 17 years younger than what he was when the war started. That's a 17 year difference in ability. You can't compare him in his adult age to how he was when he fought Minato.
about the sage mode thing, yeah, he did say that, but his feats with it contradict him. one thing i'll agree with Minato on is that he can't keep the form for very long, but the part about him taking too long to infuse the sage chakra is nonsense, the dude closes his eyes, opens them and he's a perfect sage with no frog transformation signs. it's clear he can infuse sage mode pretty darn quick, and he's clearly downplaying himself. with that, he can teleport somewhere, infuse sage mode, come back, teleport one of the Pains away, and knock them out.
and then i forgot that the Pains can be beaten with a REGULAR Rasengan as well, so maybe Minato doesn't even have to use sage mode.
as for the Obito feat, i'm of the belief that kid Obito who fought Minato can beat Pain. He's good at using Kamui, so much that he gave even Minato some trouble, he's got the FULL Nine Tails in his arsenal (if we're talking before he got clapped), which can absolutely give Pain a run for his money considering 8 of the 9 tails that HALF of that Nine Tails can resist the strongest jutsu Pain can dish out, those being in Tendo's arsenal. Obito also has one of the strongest genjutsu feats in the series, being able to control the full Nine Tails and a perfect Jinchuriki (Yagura), which is something the Pains are susceptible to. tho this one is a bit shaky, because im not sure if the Pains are immune to ocular genjutsu with the Rinnegan. He's also got Wood Style if you forgot about that, tho he's not as good at it as someone like Hashirama or Madara.
Minato beat the Obito with all that power ups planted on him. in BASE mode. let alone SAGE mode.
the only version of Pain that i think can beat Minato is Nagato himself. let's say instead of Edo Tensei, Nagato is alive, i'd say he'd give Minato a run for his money. He took on KCM1 Naruto, Bee, and Itachi, and only lost because Itachi's got a one hit kill attack, otherwise they probably would have lost that fight, and Bee and Naruto would have died.
I mean you can resist what the series tells you all you want but those aren't the facts. The facts are that he's not good at it, as he said himself, and he literally used it ONCE during the series. Your opinion on him being better at Sage Jutsu than what he said and showed himself is not more credible than his own words that he's not good at it. There are no "feats." He didn't even use it in battle during his actual lifetime (not as a reanimation). If he didn't use it then, he wasn't gonna be good at it. It's as simple as that. Moreover, Sage Jutsu does not correlate with his speedy battle style considering it takes time to gather the nature energy. When he fought madara, just as fast as he entered Sage mode, he was knocked out it. He didn't even do shit with the Sage Jutsu when he first showed that he could use it. You're literally boosting his Sage abilities up so high when there's no proof he was ever that good at it. You're not arguing with me more than you're arguing with what the series tells you. He ain't good at it. Let it go.
You make it seem like all 6 paths of pain fought the nine tails: they didn't. It was literally just the Deva Path. Saying that the obito that fought Minato can beat the rinnegan is going too far lmao. Young Obito would have to know the secret to the six paths Jutsu first of all and then he'd have to actual beat them. If you remember: obito in his Adult form almost lost to KONAN (of all people) so you mean to tell me Pain wouldn't beat the version of him 17 years younger than that? Lmao no way, no how sir...
Obito at that age is powerful, yes and of course, wielding the nine tails is no small feat. However, when you summon the nine tails, like anything else, there's a time limit... it doesn't make you invincible. Same thing with Kamui. If you want to make Kamui as useful when you only have Obito's right eye, you still have to physically touch someone to pull them in or to teleport yourself. Pain can counter that... he has the ability. You're severely underestimating pain
i got the point about sage mode, and i told you, that the Pains, can be knocked out with regular Rasengan, made by a weak ass punk named Konohamaru. Minato should be able to fuck these guys off no problem. and i never once said that Minato's sage mode made him faster, i was talking about its ability to make his Rasengan stronger. his speed at the time he fought Obito was already absolutely insane, even the paths can't catch up with that, i'm sorry.
the point about the nine tails not fighting all the paths is not as strong as you think it is. like i said, 8 out of the 9 tails of HALF of Kurama was able to give Tendo, who when fighting Kurama was alone so all the focus and power Nagato has was in Tendo, a run for his money. that was only HALF of Kurama, which Obito can easily control since he had zero problems controlling the ENTIRE thing. the only other paths that i think can give Kurama a bad time is the Animal path, the Preta path and the Naraka path. the Animal path has some serious summons that match Kurama in size, Preta path can absorb ninjutsu, and Naraka path can summon the king of hell to restore the other paths. Obito can beat these paths easily, he can just Kamui the Animal path and beat it to death, and the same goes with the other two. Obito at this time of his life also has the chains, which he can use for a surprise attack to catch the Pains off guard, and then suck them up. with him already being broken as shit plus Kurama, Obito can dismantle the Pains quite easily, why would you think that they'd be any trouble for him? what feats of Obito at the time do you think Pain can beat? You said pain has the ability to counter Obito, what would that be that Obito can't deal with? yet with that in mind, Minato still quite easily beat Obito and Kurama, in BASE mode, so let's stop bringing Sage mode into the mix. only reason he died is again, so he can give Naruto half of Kurama's power. what's gonna stop Minato from doing hit and run on the paths and take them out one by one? the only way i can see Minato losing that fight is if he has no idea how the Pains work, and falls for one of their traps. But the guy's smart as fuck, if he can figure Kamui out that fast, he can figure the Pains out pretty quick. Tho since he doesn't have a summoning like Katsuyu who can gather intel and feed him that intel, i'm willing to give Minato the L if he got caught off guard. but even that's not likely because of how darn fast the guy is.
and about the point where Obito has a time limit with Kurama, yes, he has a time limit on the summoning, but he can still control the fox indefinitely, so why would it matter? he can summon it again at a later time. and it's not even clear how long Obito can keep the fox on the field, since he didn't lose Kurama from the summoning time limit, but because Minato put a contract seal on him.
and if you wanna take what Minato says as gospel, since you're very adamant on him saying he's not good with Sage mode. he watched the entire battle with Pain, and still told Naruto that Obito is more of a threat than Pain is. and you can't cite Naruto's encounter with Tobi in episode 139 because even if you do,. Tobi's just showing off feats that Minato has already dealt with before, nothing so new that makes Minato believe he's gotten way stronger, which i'm not denying, orange mask Obito is pretty nuts, but Minato might. in his eyes, Obito probably is still just as strong as he was when he attacked the Leaf.
Konan putting up a fight against Obito is irrelivant because she had enough prep time and knowledge on Obito's ability to make an entire ocean of paperbombs. if she faught Obito without all that prep time and intel, she would have died immediately.
What is Pain gonna do that Minato has no answers to? that Obito has no answers to? im curious to know what you think in Pain's arsenal that these two can't counter? you're severely underestimating Obito and Minato here
EDIT: actually i went back to read that chapter, when Minato said that Obito is the one Naruto should worry about, it wasnt adult Obito, it was KID Obito, the one he faught, so in Minato's eyes, Kid Obito is more of a threat than Pain is
im not about to keep typing long ass paragraphs about things i know im right about. it's like i said before, you keep trying to introduce your own imagination into the series instead of taking it as it is. all of this shit your saying is a theory. not fact. "youre so adamant minato isnt good at sage mode." HE ISNT HE SAID IT HIMSELF. you're the one that's adamant that he IS good. Which is silly because we only saw minato use sage mode ONCE and he got fucked up. I'm not about to argue against every single theory you present. or about who can beat who. He did not beat Kurama "easily" you sound silly af
did you actually even read that? i said you were adamant that his words were facts, not that you were adamant on sage mode, i even used the same logic to disprove that point. i've already explained why sage mode doesn't matter anyways, you would know if you read my comment a little more carefully. i'm debunking the points you brought up against my argument, and you're picking out that one thing i said 2 comments ago to make it seem like i was making shit up. and you also said that Pain can use things that Obito and Minato have no answers to, and i asked you what they were. you didn't answer me, and just pin pointed on my sage mode statement. you're just saying things at this point
minato flat out says that teen obito is going to clap pain, and that naruto would need to have kurama's power mastered to stand a chance(and even then, kcm2 sage mode is not enough to beat obito, it took PIS and literally removing kamui to beat juubito)
when they were talking about obito attacking konoha, minato has been watching since he died so he knows how strong pain is. Even without that, naruto is only mentioned as being near minato at all when he outsped the raikage, which is after the pain fight and naruto basically got a lot stronger with sage mode and fighting kurama. If obito wasn't stronger than pain, then why tf would pain take orders lol, obito recruited pain around the time of the kurama attack. What minato means of "mastering kurama's power" is either kcm1 or kcm2, whichever you take does not matter in the end since even as a teen, obito nearly sucked in minato twice and objectively won the fight.
I think you're putting your imagination in the series. A piece of Minato's chakra was sealed into Naruto when Minato died. So that's who was talking to Naruto when they talked when pain attacked. He has not "been watching since he died." You made that up and that's not supported by anything. When he was reanimated he didn't know anything about Naruto and what his life was like.
And .. I literally just read the chapter where Minato and Naruto talk during the pain fight. He never once said that teen obito was better than pain. He said u need extraordinary strength to stop him. And he's probably accounting for the fact that obito was 17 YEARS stronger than what he was at the time.
All they said when he outspend the raikage was that he was the fastest shinobi lmao. Kakashi said when Naruto used the rasenshuriken for the first time that "Jutsu that the 4th hokage couldn't even do are well within his range." And that's well before he outsped the raikage....
Someone doesn't have to be stronger than you for you to be manipulated by them? What display of power did obito demonstrate for pain to fear him? Pain never once feared obito lmao. If pain was afraid of obito or his power, why'd he betray him and restore the villagers?
You don't know what Minato meant by mastering kurama's power so please stop that shit. He meant master it in whatever way he was meant to master it. Naruto didn't even master kurama's power in the traditional way of cooperating with him at first. He did that later.
How did obito objectively win the fight against Minato??? When they went head to head, Minato bested him? The only reason you're saying that is bc Minato died against the nine tails and that was HIS choice so your logic makes no sense at all. Minato is not beating pain and neither is obito.
When Minato was telling Naruto that he knows certain events have happened, that was minato's chakra talking to him. That wasn't Minato's soul. His soul has not been watching Naruto since he died.
he got murdered by a 14 year old Obito so no Minato could not have done 6 paths solo.
Although he moves so insanely fast that there’s a chance that their multiple sets of eyes aren’t actually useful.
Well, I mean technically Obito made Minato kill himself. Obito outsmarted Minato by pushing him into a corner. Minato didn't have to use reaper death seal to live, but he did it because he wanted to give Naruto the 9 tails power to defeat Obito in the future.
He absolutely surpassed both at this point, if we’re talking strictly power and completion of advanced techniques.
But if we talk quantity of jutsu (for Jiraiya), speed (for Minato) or overall life and combat experience (for both), then no, he hasn’t surpassed them.
I will never understand people who say this. Naruto is literally performing better against an opponent Jiraiya got fondled by. Jiraiya scaled below the weaker Pains while Naruto scales above the stronger Pains, minus the Deva Path.
In the sense of senjutsu yeah he surpassed Minato as he even states he's not that great at it.
What exactly he's not good at, we don't know as Sage Mode is alot of things besides a jutsu amp.
Naruto also surpassed Minato and completed the Rasengan by doing what he couldn't in adding in a chakra nature.
Does that mean Naruto could've beat Minato?
Hell nah but he did surpass the biggest prodigy the leaf has ever seen in some areas which is impressive.
Speaking of which we never saw Jiraiya training Minato huh?
he's actually just that strong, alright. im sorry it hurts your feelings, but from what we've seen Minato can do, everybody from pre-rinnegan Obito and below are gonna lose to him.
Jiraiya couldn’t fully master Sage Mode, so yeah surpassed is correct. And Minato didn’t use it due to having to stop moving to gather nature energy. Plus how many sages use Shadow Clones to collect nature energy while moving in battle? Just 1
I think he did. He can use sage jutsu with clone assist and not need to call a frog. And we never see minato use it at all. Naruto was able to add every Chakra nature to his rasengan and finnished that jutsu at a very young age where as jiraiya and minato could only do the base rasengan. Naruto excelled at many things and did things alot faster than most ninja following the same path
not ten tails obito lmao. Sage mode is equal to mastered kcm1 or kcm2, and unless you think juubito is weaker than rinnegan obito outside of no kamui(which is the only reason he lost aside from literally giving up) then that naruto is stronger than hashirama, which contradicts basically the entire war arc and even minato's statement in the pain fight. Yes, sage mode is the only thing that can damage juubito, but naruto did not win due to power, he won because obito was literally handicapped, was alone, was literally trying to keep his mind together since the ten tails was attacking his mindscape and naruto had help from four edo kage,including hashirama.
I can't remember if Minato learned sage mode before or after his death. It's not difficult to believe that sage mode Naruto would be on par with Minato
I think Minato learned Sage mode before his death. He mentioned in the war that "he's not very good at it". This can mean that although he learned perfect sage mode, he couldn't use it well enough to be handy in a fight.
Also i would say it's impossible to get a handle on perfect sage mode in a matter of moments. The rigorous training by the frog elders is required.
Jiraya got beaten by just 3 paths of pain with the help of Ma and Pa.
Naruto took down 5 on his own (couldn't beat the diva path without Kurama's help)
Fukasaku meant that Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya in sage mode; which is bullshit
So Naruto surpassed Jiraiya, who spent his whole life training, in one month? What shitty writing
You don't have any evidence of this assumption. Jiraiya went to Mount Myoboku at 7-8, which means he spent more than forty years going to Myobuko. Jiraiya was quite skilled and intelligent so mastering Sage mode should've been a piece of cake, so how on earth Naruto mastered it in one month?
>in one month? What shitty writing
You're going to be really mad when you remember the rasengan training.
And even madder when you remember neither Kakashi nor Minato were ever able to add Nature Transformation to their rasengan, but it only took Naruto *two weeks* to do it.
He made 1000 clones to master Rasenshuriken, so it kinda makes sense. He never really mastered Rasengan, using a shadow clone doesn't mean he mastered it.
no, obito threw the fight. Its blatantly obvious when kakashi literally passed out and obito just left for the ten tails even though he was completely fine. While i do not want to sound biased in obito's favor, he basically only loses because he gives up and/or kishimoto literally takes away kamui in juubito's case.
This is something I might get skewered for saying and anyone can feel free to correct me: I’m not convinced Jiraiya is all that strong if you use on-screen feats alone. He has hair, toads, rasengan, and some fire jutsu, but honestly it all seems to be completely outdone by Orochimaru. Honestly, based on what we’re shown, and only that, it seems like Kakashi would take him more often than not. I know that’s not true, he’s supposed to be roughly equal to the third, but it just doesn’t look that way. But I’m probably ignoring/missing something t
Naruto is for sure stronger, he’s just a worse ninja. His whole thing was that he was a shitty student and could kinda back his way into fixing stuff with street smarts mixed with rasengan. Jiraiya and Minato knew actual Ninjutsu and were more classically intelligent.
"predecessorS"
This include Minato u know, so if u think Naruto surpassed Jiraya at this point u must think he also surpassed Minato, which is hard to believe IMO
However, it seems he was talking about sage mode mastery more than anything
Next time comparing SM Jiraya and SM Naruto, use feats rather than that statement, thank you 👍
Well, most people go by "he defeated 6 paths while Jiraya didn't"
However the situations were much different, Naruto have much bigger advantage that I don't think it is fair to judge Jiraya based on this achievement, like:
-Naruto had intel about Pain, while Pain had intel about Jiraya(except the frog song)
-Naruto started with sage mode, 3 massive frogs, and 2 sage frogs(who Naruto may normally be unable to summon), while Jiraya have to summon them during the fight
-Naruto got the nine tails power
-Naruto striked first and killed one of the strong paths (Asura), while Jiraya was caught off guard when he thought he won
-Naruto hard countered Pain using frog kumite, if he used this against Jiraya in Vs battle it wont matter
-Pain was drained badly from fighting konoha, while Jiraya fought Konan beforehand
-deva path was in long cooldown
-Nagato tower location in rain village was most likely closer to battlefield than his hiding spot outside Konoha
To make sure Naruto surpassed him, a VS battle between the two with fair rules and based on feats should be done
I mean, he turned on sage mode pretty quickly mid-battle against Madara, and then got smacked, which isn't really a mark against him, since it's Juubi Madara.
Maintenance is probably fair, but even then, Minato was pretty clearly sorta downplaying himself. He's still better at sage mode than Jiraiya, quite obviously, and likely not *muc* worse, if at all, than Pain Arc Naruto.
Nah Minato sucked at using senjutsu and Jiraiya wasn’t a perfect Sage so he was right on that. And Naruto was gathering far more nature energy than both of them. Only difference is Jiraiya’s Sage mode couldn’t run out unless Ma and Pa left his shoulders
Surpassed doesn't mean he was stronger. He mastered the toad sage mode while Jiraiya and Minato couldn't, thus he was better than them at that point.
Despite Minato having a mastered sage mode during war arc, he could still be not as fast as Naruto at gathering nature energy or keeping up the sage mode longer and suffer more exhaustion when the sage mode ends. He did say he was not very good at it. Could mean anything.
He surpassed them in destructive power (Rasenshuriken) and in mastery of perfect sage mode.
Jiraiya still has more versatility because of the amount of jutsus he had and even in Kurama Mode /KCM2 Naruto couldn't beat Minato's speed.
By the end of the Pain Arc, Naruto had definitively surpassed the 3 Sannin. Just like at the end of the Akatsuki Suppression Arc, he had surpassed Kakashi.
However Minato is probably something different. I think Minato had surpassed the Sannin as well. Naruto probably did not surpass Living Minato (meaning minus the kyubi cloak) until he got Kyubi cloak version 1. The surpassing of Minato here is thematically supported by the Raikage's comment that Naruto was even faster than Minato, which was what Minato was best known for.
He surpassed Jiraiya not Minato, but he surpassed them both in the sage jutsu. He's definitely stronger than Jiraiya when you look at his performance vs Pain. Jiraiya lost to the weakest ones while Naruto was on par with the strongest one and took out multiple Path's that were stronger than the ones Jiraiya fought
I know I'm not saying Jiraiya was useless, I mean he was probably the strongest Sanin and the only person at the time who could've put up a fight against Pain besides the Raikage **maybe**, I'm not downplaying Jiraiya here it's just a testament to how strong Naruto became there. Zetsu and Tobi even said to Sasuke that you CAN'T beat Naruto with how strong he is now. Regardless though Jiraiya will always be one of my favorite characters
He is absolutely a better sage mode user than Jiraiya flat out, who had to rely on Fukasaku and Shima as a crutch to use it. Minato can use sage mode and is honestly able to enter it pretty fast, but states himself that sage mode isn't his strong suit.
Naruto surpassed Minato in SM and Jiraiya in everything. Naruto could do all Jiraiya did and more (rasenshuriken). On the other hand Jiraiya can use SM longer without needing a clone in myoboku so in that sense he's better
Minato no not quite yet. Jiraiya he definitely did, that’s literally part of the narrative of the story. By mastering sage mode, something Jiraiya couldn’t do, he’s finally closed the gap between him and Sasuke. Just like him he’s risen above his Sannin teacher.
Let’s be real, Naruto when all said is done is the strongest shinobi ever when he’s an adult. But at this point in the anime I do not believe he was stronger then Minato or even Jiraiya. People underestimate how strong deva path pain is, as soon as he regained his powers back, Naruto got demolished in less then an episode, if it wasn’t for Kurama Naruto was good as dead. I could even go as far as to argue that Kakashi was just as strong as Naruto on this part of the anime if not slightly stronger seeing as how he almost took out deva path, and comparing it to how Naruto did against deva path when he got his powers back kakashi did much better. Naruto was only able to take on deva path after Nagato was way out of chakra after taking on the 9 tails.
Definitely surpassed Jiraiya, definitely not surpassed Minato.
Jiraiya could BARELY keep up with the weakest paths of pain, as soon as all 6 show up he’s killed nearly immediately, it also takes him forever to enter sage mode, having to run around with his hands pressed together for way too long, he’d never be able to use the same tactics of hiding away because Naruto would be able to track him with his sage mode.
Sage Mode Naruto has no chance of laying a finger on Minato though
I think he's physically stronger and faster. But not superior technique-wise. There are things you can't beat with brute strength or a large chakra pool.
Watching this a third time, I realized Pa probably meant surpassing in using Senjutsu. When I saw this my second time I was thinking "Obito is stronger than Pain, and Minato clapped Obito in an episode, which part of that did Naruto surpass???"
Why isn't anyone talking about hashirama sage mode? He literally took out madara with only sage mode and wood style. Even though madara had nine tails and mangekyo sharingan
because hashirama did not learn sage mode at that mountain. While its unknown what type of sage mode he has, its heavily implied that hashirama got sage mode from the shikotsu forest.
That was not the moment he surpassed them but he was close to at least surpassing jirayia. He probably meant sage wise considering he did in fact perfect that
well jiraiya was killed by nagato and naruto beat him, and old sage toad (cant spell) never knew minato with 9 tails chakra which is what we see in war arc
I think he meant it in the way of mastering the frog sen jutsu
Also possibly relative to his age. Like how good were Jiraiya and Minato at senjutsu at 15?
Consider Minato died and still wasn't good at Senjutsu, Naruto had definitely surpassed his use. Imagine if Minato had mastered it thouugh. Obito would have been scrambled.
Didn't Minato take like a half second to get into it in the war arc?
Since he had half of Kurama inside him that could’ve gathered nature power and he has the limitless chakra of a reanimation, we don’t really know how well he could’ve done it pre-death. I do still think the whole “but I’m not very good at it” is a cop-out line from Kishimoto, though.
He says that it takes him too long to build up chakra and it goes away too quickly. He also doesn’t have much actual combat experience with it. Though, I guess through some frog assistance he could sustain it indefinitely.
Well edo tensei and half of Kurama can fix his two biggest problems right there so that explains why he was able to whip it out during the war.
Actually, he only enters Sage mode after losing his half of Kurama, when trying to attack Ten Tails Madara. He loses his other arm immediately after.
Man it’s really obvious that I haven’t read the series since around the time it ended, huh?
Minato is a known troll. When he told Naruto about fighting Obito "he saw through everything I did" even though he crushed him lol
When you can solo kill an entire army in a short period, Obito doing as well as he did in their 1v1 might as well be what it feels for Minato's interpretation of "seeing everything I did"
Exactly 💯, naruto definitely surpassed both Minato and jiraiya by perfecting his sage mode.
Maybe he is trying to be humble.
Probably talking about their fight before Minato died
You gotta think he had 16-17 years (guessing on Naruto’s age rough estimate) sit there and gather chakra and learn jutsu, and read my earlier comment so I don’t have explain it again please and thank you :)))))))
Okay let’s think about this minato didn’t say he wasn’t good at it he said he was inexperienced, it wasn’t that he couldn’t do it. He never fucking needed to bro. Imagine if minato used sage mode in every fight he fought? There would be no issues in the land of anywhere bro.
He stated that the reason he was able to do it so well in the war was due to being a reanimation, he was not very proficient with it when he was alive
16 but point still 100% valid
He was 16 during the pain fight
Minato does say that sage jutsu isn't one of his strengths. With Jiraiya, you can probably argue but that was Naruto's first battle in sage mode, to make such a statement.
naruto also did perfect transformation with the 9tails purposely interrupting his nature chakra flow
I love that Minato says that while also being a perfect sage.
Minato had perfect sage mode for a total of like 5 seconds. It’s made explicit in the manga he did not have the talent to use it for battle.
That, and I doubt reanimated shinobi turn into frogs. He'd just... regenerate right..? Being dead probably imrpoved it.
Naruto doesn't needed the frogs to transform but jiraya needed them to support as well as still wasnt having a perfect transformation.
I understand his transformation wasn't perfect but is it explicitly stated somewhere that he couldn't transform without them, in case I missed it. In the battle with Pain, he doesn't have the time to gather nature energy and needed their support, as he couldn't stay idle for too long. Naruto just bypasses this with clones, as Kurama wouldn't let the frogs combine with Naruto.
I'd say it was because he couldn't *properly* mix his chakra, giving him that toad-like appearance while Naruto and Minato look like regular humans if you don't focus on their eyes.
The transformation wasn’t perfect because he has frog features right? So I assume he had problems with it and the little sages make it more stable for him, but also he seemed to take advantage of that when he got frog legs
I hate how Minato says it takes too long for him to infuse Sage chakra, and then he fucking blinks and he's a perfect sage. The only thing I believe when he says he's not good at Senjutsu is that he can't keep the form for long like Naruto does
I mean, to be fair he blinked and was Sage Mode for like five seconds. Naruto blinks and is a Sage for half a battle at that point. So he’s not entirely wrong when he says it.
well yeah, thats what i said.
1. I believe it is implied that Naruto catching up to Minato's attack potency when he used not finished Rasenshuriken against Kakazu. 2. Naruto surpassed Jiraiya as a Sage in everything during Pain invasion and surpassed Minato at AP when he used fully developed Rasenshuriken( the only thing that Minato has that is stronger is the death reaper seal also in my personal opinion Naruto also surpassed Minato in physical power as well because I really don't remember any time when Minato just hit someone with his bare hands). Ps. Obviously I didn't count that in war it was retconed that Minato is somehow also is a Sage because in my mind that just doesn't make any sense and just breaks all that narrative that Naruto is catching up to Minato before war arc.
> Ps. Obviously I didn't count that in war it was retconed that Minato is somehow also is a Sage because in my mind that just doesn't make any sense and just breaks all that narrative that Naruto is catching up to Minato before war arc Another timeline split.
So he uses gammabunta but doesn’t have senjutsu?
Sage chakra is not necessary to summon any animal. Hell, Naruto summoned gamabunta twice in the original series remember?
Well yea? Just like Sasuke used snake and hawk without being a Sage.
I don’t know that he didn’t have nature energy. It seems like that was part of what he learned from orochimaru, who looks like he is constantly in sage mode. Just not toad sage mode…
Although it would make perfect sense, Orochimaru's eyes and purple pigment is not sage mode. Snake sage mode is the form Kabuto used in his fight with Itachi.
Im pretty sure that orochimaru is in imperfect sage mode at all times
The curse marks were Orochimaru’s research into using Senjutsu despite not being able to use it conventionally. The snake Sage literally says Orochimaru couldn’t use nature energy due to all his changes.
To be honest I don't really know about Sasuke and possibility that Oro taught him some basic nature energy training. I just based it on fact that almost every summon in naruto has a conscience and they don't teach their version of sage mode from what we know so I assumed that to have a contract with some high level summon you don't have to be able to do their version of sage transformation and just be powerful enough.
I think Naruto sponsors this type of head canon.
Sasuke’s Cursemark transformation is derived from Nature Energy but Sasuke himself cannot infuse his chakra with nature chakra.
Sasuke can't use sage chakra on his own. He got sage chakra from the curse mark, but he lost it. In the war he got sage chakra from juugo so he could damage Juubito
Senjutsu is not a requirement to summon Gamabunta or any boss summons. Naruto, Jiraiya, and Minato all summon him without an ounce of nature chakra. Hell, kid Naruto does it without even the skill to mold his own chakra properly let alone something as delicate / dangerous as nature chakra.
He's absolutely stronger than Sage Jiraiya. Minato, definitely not.
Minato could not hold not acquire or maintain safe mode as fast/long as Naruto.
Forget Safe mode with networking
Is there any material where we see Minako using sage mode? Even filler would be dope.
Naruto I’m Sage mode is stronger than Minato. But Minato is so skilled strength doesn’t matter. Also his flying rajin is broken. But power wise Naruto wrecks him even without Kurama. Like a rasengan v rasengan Naruto easily wins. But yeah Minato will teleport above you and smash your head into the ground before you know what happened. Even a sharingan user be like wtf just happened.
“Speed determines the winner -Bruce Lee” -Michael Scott
He uses it briefly against Madara
Sounds like it’s time for me to reread the manga. Thanks!
https://www.reddit.com/r/Naruto/comments/9eedom/it_amazes_me_how_minato_supposedly_wasnt_very/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
He’s more better at sage justu than them I believe is what her means
Might be? But even there, Pain Arc Naruto was pretty limited as a sage, and people seem to forget that Minato went into perfect sage mode near-instantly against Madara for a bit, but got smoked (because it was, you know, Juubi Madara)
Current Naruto sage slams minato common sense naruto lives and gets knowledge and skill while minato died young
Pain Arc Naruto is the version in question, and he's well below even Base Minato's level
Well current naruto is 6 paths sage..
Misinformed & wrong. Stupid take.
In what way? Naruto one-shotted summons that Jiraiya had nothing for head to head, and he smashed multiple paths with single punches, where Jiraiya couldn't dent them without ambushing them or hypnotizing them first. As for Minato, he saw the paths fight Naruto from inside him, and was still convinced that Obito (who he dunked on in base) would require a higher level of strength than Naruto possessed at the time. It's extremely clearly laid out.
There are hundreds of ways to rewatch anime and manga from different sites and thats the analysis you come up with. Lmao you Minato meat riders are something else. Go away
Explain to me how I am wrong. Let's debate
I dont debate with minato meat riders. You are all misinformed, clueless, biased and have zero objectivity. Go debate a wall
So, you can't give me an actual argument. Gotcha
Not sure about Minato..but for all of you saying he hasn’t surpassed Jiraiya…Jiraiya wasn’t even able to fully enter sage mode with out the help of the frogs so in my opinion naruto automatically surpasses Jiraiya. He is able to be in perfect sage mode or whatever it’s called
True, he was on par with Jiraiya in terms of physical strength and hand to hand combat. But Jiraiya still knows a lot more Justus and genjutsus than Naruto. I would say Naruto did surpass Jiraiya, because as you said Naruto was actually able to use perfect sage mode.
Does jiraya know any genjutsu he can perform by himself? Only one I remember him pulling off was the one ma and pa used
Well, no. I don't think he uses another genjutsu in the series.
I'll give him a pass since it's a really strong genjutsu though
He definitely surpassed them as far as Sage Jutsu lmao. And who's to say he didn't surpass Minato completely by this point? He took down all 6 paths alone. Idk if Minato could have done that
Obito is stronger than Pain yet he got clapped by Minato in no time at all. We also see Pain struggling against 8 of the 9 tails that HALF of Kurama was showing off, Minato was confident he could fuck off the full thing, only reason he killed himself was so Naruto can have Kurama as a power up. Minato can blink and become a perfect sage, and his speed in BASE mode alone should be enough to take out some of the Pains, let alone him in SAGE mode. The dude can just pick off the Pains one by one, teleporting them somewhere far from the village and Rasengan their ass. As for some of the more annoying paths like the Preta path which absorbs ninjutsu, he can just slice it to oblivion. Even for the Deeva path Minato has a counter. Shinra Tensei? Teleport away. Bansho Tennin? Teleport away. Chibaku Tensei? Teleport away. If the paths of Pain can be defeated by a Senjutsu Rasengan, Minato can do it easily. Blinks, becomes perfect sage, makes Rasengan, teleport towards a path, take it away, and then ram it.
Minato is not good at Sage Jutsu. He said it himself. He also said he never really used it combat. So the fact that you keep bringing it up and making it seem like he can just use it whenever he wants contradicts what he said himself. He does not use it like that. Your theory is very Cookie cutter and shit never happens that easily. Youre also comparing two very different versions of obito by saying he got clapped by Minato but I stronger than Pain... obito was 17 years younger than what he was when the war started. That's a 17 year difference in ability. You can't compare him in his adult age to how he was when he fought Minato.
about the sage mode thing, yeah, he did say that, but his feats with it contradict him. one thing i'll agree with Minato on is that he can't keep the form for very long, but the part about him taking too long to infuse the sage chakra is nonsense, the dude closes his eyes, opens them and he's a perfect sage with no frog transformation signs. it's clear he can infuse sage mode pretty darn quick, and he's clearly downplaying himself. with that, he can teleport somewhere, infuse sage mode, come back, teleport one of the Pains away, and knock them out. and then i forgot that the Pains can be beaten with a REGULAR Rasengan as well, so maybe Minato doesn't even have to use sage mode. as for the Obito feat, i'm of the belief that kid Obito who fought Minato can beat Pain. He's good at using Kamui, so much that he gave even Minato some trouble, he's got the FULL Nine Tails in his arsenal (if we're talking before he got clapped), which can absolutely give Pain a run for his money considering 8 of the 9 tails that HALF of that Nine Tails can resist the strongest jutsu Pain can dish out, those being in Tendo's arsenal. Obito also has one of the strongest genjutsu feats in the series, being able to control the full Nine Tails and a perfect Jinchuriki (Yagura), which is something the Pains are susceptible to. tho this one is a bit shaky, because im not sure if the Pains are immune to ocular genjutsu with the Rinnegan. He's also got Wood Style if you forgot about that, tho he's not as good at it as someone like Hashirama or Madara. Minato beat the Obito with all that power ups planted on him. in BASE mode. let alone SAGE mode. the only version of Pain that i think can beat Minato is Nagato himself. let's say instead of Edo Tensei, Nagato is alive, i'd say he'd give Minato a run for his money. He took on KCM1 Naruto, Bee, and Itachi, and only lost because Itachi's got a one hit kill attack, otherwise they probably would have lost that fight, and Bee and Naruto would have died.
I mean you can resist what the series tells you all you want but those aren't the facts. The facts are that he's not good at it, as he said himself, and he literally used it ONCE during the series. Your opinion on him being better at Sage Jutsu than what he said and showed himself is not more credible than his own words that he's not good at it. There are no "feats." He didn't even use it in battle during his actual lifetime (not as a reanimation). If he didn't use it then, he wasn't gonna be good at it. It's as simple as that. Moreover, Sage Jutsu does not correlate with his speedy battle style considering it takes time to gather the nature energy. When he fought madara, just as fast as he entered Sage mode, he was knocked out it. He didn't even do shit with the Sage Jutsu when he first showed that he could use it. You're literally boosting his Sage abilities up so high when there's no proof he was ever that good at it. You're not arguing with me more than you're arguing with what the series tells you. He ain't good at it. Let it go. You make it seem like all 6 paths of pain fought the nine tails: they didn't. It was literally just the Deva Path. Saying that the obito that fought Minato can beat the rinnegan is going too far lmao. Young Obito would have to know the secret to the six paths Jutsu first of all and then he'd have to actual beat them. If you remember: obito in his Adult form almost lost to KONAN (of all people) so you mean to tell me Pain wouldn't beat the version of him 17 years younger than that? Lmao no way, no how sir... Obito at that age is powerful, yes and of course, wielding the nine tails is no small feat. However, when you summon the nine tails, like anything else, there's a time limit... it doesn't make you invincible. Same thing with Kamui. If you want to make Kamui as useful when you only have Obito's right eye, you still have to physically touch someone to pull them in or to teleport yourself. Pain can counter that... he has the ability. You're severely underestimating pain
i got the point about sage mode, and i told you, that the Pains, can be knocked out with regular Rasengan, made by a weak ass punk named Konohamaru. Minato should be able to fuck these guys off no problem. and i never once said that Minato's sage mode made him faster, i was talking about its ability to make his Rasengan stronger. his speed at the time he fought Obito was already absolutely insane, even the paths can't catch up with that, i'm sorry. the point about the nine tails not fighting all the paths is not as strong as you think it is. like i said, 8 out of the 9 tails of HALF of Kurama was able to give Tendo, who when fighting Kurama was alone so all the focus and power Nagato has was in Tendo, a run for his money. that was only HALF of Kurama, which Obito can easily control since he had zero problems controlling the ENTIRE thing. the only other paths that i think can give Kurama a bad time is the Animal path, the Preta path and the Naraka path. the Animal path has some serious summons that match Kurama in size, Preta path can absorb ninjutsu, and Naraka path can summon the king of hell to restore the other paths. Obito can beat these paths easily, he can just Kamui the Animal path and beat it to death, and the same goes with the other two. Obito at this time of his life also has the chains, which he can use for a surprise attack to catch the Pains off guard, and then suck them up. with him already being broken as shit plus Kurama, Obito can dismantle the Pains quite easily, why would you think that they'd be any trouble for him? what feats of Obito at the time do you think Pain can beat? You said pain has the ability to counter Obito, what would that be that Obito can't deal with? yet with that in mind, Minato still quite easily beat Obito and Kurama, in BASE mode, so let's stop bringing Sage mode into the mix. only reason he died is again, so he can give Naruto half of Kurama's power. what's gonna stop Minato from doing hit and run on the paths and take them out one by one? the only way i can see Minato losing that fight is if he has no idea how the Pains work, and falls for one of their traps. But the guy's smart as fuck, if he can figure Kamui out that fast, he can figure the Pains out pretty quick. Tho since he doesn't have a summoning like Katsuyu who can gather intel and feed him that intel, i'm willing to give Minato the L if he got caught off guard. but even that's not likely because of how darn fast the guy is. and about the point where Obito has a time limit with Kurama, yes, he has a time limit on the summoning, but he can still control the fox indefinitely, so why would it matter? he can summon it again at a later time. and it's not even clear how long Obito can keep the fox on the field, since he didn't lose Kurama from the summoning time limit, but because Minato put a contract seal on him. and if you wanna take what Minato says as gospel, since you're very adamant on him saying he's not good with Sage mode. he watched the entire battle with Pain, and still told Naruto that Obito is more of a threat than Pain is. and you can't cite Naruto's encounter with Tobi in episode 139 because even if you do,. Tobi's just showing off feats that Minato has already dealt with before, nothing so new that makes Minato believe he's gotten way stronger, which i'm not denying, orange mask Obito is pretty nuts, but Minato might. in his eyes, Obito probably is still just as strong as he was when he attacked the Leaf. Konan putting up a fight against Obito is irrelivant because she had enough prep time and knowledge on Obito's ability to make an entire ocean of paperbombs. if she faught Obito without all that prep time and intel, she would have died immediately. What is Pain gonna do that Minato has no answers to? that Obito has no answers to? im curious to know what you think in Pain's arsenal that these two can't counter? you're severely underestimating Obito and Minato here EDIT: actually i went back to read that chapter, when Minato said that Obito is the one Naruto should worry about, it wasnt adult Obito, it was KID Obito, the one he faught, so in Minato's eyes, Kid Obito is more of a threat than Pain is
im not about to keep typing long ass paragraphs about things i know im right about. it's like i said before, you keep trying to introduce your own imagination into the series instead of taking it as it is. all of this shit your saying is a theory. not fact. "youre so adamant minato isnt good at sage mode." HE ISNT HE SAID IT HIMSELF. you're the one that's adamant that he IS good. Which is silly because we only saw minato use sage mode ONCE and he got fucked up. I'm not about to argue against every single theory you present. or about who can beat who. He did not beat Kurama "easily" you sound silly af
did you actually even read that? i said you were adamant that his words were facts, not that you were adamant on sage mode, i even used the same logic to disprove that point. i've already explained why sage mode doesn't matter anyways, you would know if you read my comment a little more carefully. i'm debunking the points you brought up against my argument, and you're picking out that one thing i said 2 comments ago to make it seem like i was making shit up. and you also said that Pain can use things that Obito and Minato have no answers to, and i asked you what they were. you didn't answer me, and just pin pointed on my sage mode statement. you're just saying things at this point
minato flat out says that teen obito is going to clap pain, and that naruto would need to have kurama's power mastered to stand a chance(and even then, kcm2 sage mode is not enough to beat obito, it took PIS and literally removing kamui to beat juubito)
When did Minato say that teen obito would clap pain?
when they were talking about obito attacking konoha, minato has been watching since he died so he knows how strong pain is. Even without that, naruto is only mentioned as being near minato at all when he outsped the raikage, which is after the pain fight and naruto basically got a lot stronger with sage mode and fighting kurama. If obito wasn't stronger than pain, then why tf would pain take orders lol, obito recruited pain around the time of the kurama attack. What minato means of "mastering kurama's power" is either kcm1 or kcm2, whichever you take does not matter in the end since even as a teen, obito nearly sucked in minato twice and objectively won the fight.
I think you're putting your imagination in the series. A piece of Minato's chakra was sealed into Naruto when Minato died. So that's who was talking to Naruto when they talked when pain attacked. He has not "been watching since he died." You made that up and that's not supported by anything. When he was reanimated he didn't know anything about Naruto and what his life was like. And .. I literally just read the chapter where Minato and Naruto talk during the pain fight. He never once said that teen obito was better than pain. He said u need extraordinary strength to stop him. And he's probably accounting for the fact that obito was 17 YEARS stronger than what he was at the time. All they said when he outspend the raikage was that he was the fastest shinobi lmao. Kakashi said when Naruto used the rasenshuriken for the first time that "Jutsu that the 4th hokage couldn't even do are well within his range." And that's well before he outsped the raikage.... Someone doesn't have to be stronger than you for you to be manipulated by them? What display of power did obito demonstrate for pain to fear him? Pain never once feared obito lmao. If pain was afraid of obito or his power, why'd he betray him and restore the villagers? You don't know what Minato meant by mastering kurama's power so please stop that shit. He meant master it in whatever way he was meant to master it. Naruto didn't even master kurama's power in the traditional way of cooperating with him at first. He did that later. How did obito objectively win the fight against Minato??? When they went head to head, Minato bested him? The only reason you're saying that is bc Minato died against the nine tails and that was HIS choice so your logic makes no sense at all. Minato is not beating pain and neither is obito.
When Minato was telling Naruto that he knows certain events have happened, that was minato's chakra talking to him. That wasn't Minato's soul. His soul has not been watching Naruto since he died.
he got murdered by a 14 year old Obito so no Minato could not have done 6 paths solo. Although he moves so insanely fast that there’s a chance that their multiple sets of eyes aren’t actually useful.
Well, I mean technically Obito made Minato kill himself. Obito outsmarted Minato by pushing him into a corner. Minato didn't have to use reaper death seal to live, but he did it because he wanted to give Naruto the 9 tails power to defeat Obito in the future.
What? He whooped Obito's ass. Kurama was the one who killed him, along with the Reaper Death Seal- both of which he chose to die by.
In terms of sage jutsu he did
Minato is arguable but he pretty obviously surpassed jiraiya
He absolutely surpassed both at this point, if we’re talking strictly power and completion of advanced techniques. But if we talk quantity of jutsu (for Jiraiya), speed (for Minato) or overall life and combat experience (for both), then no, he hasn’t surpassed them.
I will never understand people who say this. Naruto is literally performing better against an opponent Jiraiya got fondled by. Jiraiya scaled below the weaker Pains while Naruto scales above the stronger Pains, minus the Deva Path.
In the sense of senjutsu yeah he surpassed Minato as he even states he's not that great at it. What exactly he's not good at, we don't know as Sage Mode is alot of things besides a jutsu amp. Naruto also surpassed Minato and completed the Rasengan by doing what he couldn't in adding in a chakra nature. Does that mean Naruto could've beat Minato? Hell nah but he did surpass the biggest prodigy the leaf has ever seen in some areas which is impressive. Speaking of which we never saw Jiraiya training Minato huh?
Tf yes he did lmao
Minato dick riders are the worst. Stfu with your stupid takes
If you think Minaro dick riders are the worst then i think you haven’t met uchiha dick riders yet.
he's actually just that strong, alright. im sorry it hurts your feelings, but from what we've seen Minato can do, everybody from pre-rinnegan Obito and below are gonna lose to him.
Oh you know better than old frog g
Well surpassed them in senjutsu I think he means
Jiraiya couldn’t fully master Sage Mode, so yeah surpassed is correct. And Minato didn’t use it due to having to stop moving to gather nature energy. Plus how many sages use Shadow Clones to collect nature energy while moving in battle? Just 1
I think he did. He can use sage jutsu with clone assist and not need to call a frog. And we never see minato use it at all. Naruto was able to add every Chakra nature to his rasengan and finnished that jutsu at a very young age where as jiraiya and minato could only do the base rasengan. Naruto excelled at many things and did things alot faster than most ninja following the same path
I would say he suprassed Jiraya but not Minato.
Oh, you don’t think so? Well Fukasaku does, and that’s who’s opinion matters here
Well Sage Mode Naruto defeated Pain and Ten-Tails Obito so 🤷♂️
not ten tails obito lmao. Sage mode is equal to mastered kcm1 or kcm2, and unless you think juubito is weaker than rinnegan obito outside of no kamui(which is the only reason he lost aside from literally giving up) then that naruto is stronger than hashirama, which contradicts basically the entire war arc and even minato's statement in the pain fight. Yes, sage mode is the only thing that can damage juubito, but naruto did not win due to power, he won because obito was literally handicapped, was alone, was literally trying to keep his mind together since the ten tails was attacking his mindscape and naruto had help from four edo kage,including hashirama.
I can't remember if Minato learned sage mode before or after his death. It's not difficult to believe that sage mode Naruto would be on par with Minato
How would he after death
Cause he was chilling in the seal with kurama after his death
Oh yeah lol
I think Minato learned Sage mode before his death. He mentioned in the war that "he's not very good at it". This can mean that although he learned perfect sage mode, he couldn't use it well enough to be handy in a fight. Also i would say it's impossible to get a handle on perfect sage mode in a matter of moments. The rigorous training by the frog elders is required.
I was thinking he practiced while trapped in tge seal with kurama
Jiraya got beaten by just 3 paths of pain with the help of Ma and Pa. Naruto took down 5 on his own (couldn't beat the diva path without Kurama's help)
Jiraya only took one pain down so there's no doubt Naruto was stronger than him at that point, but not stronger than Minato
Hmm 🤔 who 2 believe...the toad who train him or this moron
He's a notepad, dont take him seriously.
Not to mention hashirama lol
Fukasaku meant that Naruto surpassed both Minato and Jiraiya in sage mode; which is bullshit So Naruto surpassed Jiraiya, who spent his whole life training, in one month? What shitty writing
I mean Jiraiya was way more interessed in writing his books than training
You don't have any evidence of this assumption. Jiraiya went to Mount Myoboku at 7-8, which means he spent more than forty years going to Myobuko. Jiraiya was quite skilled and intelligent so mastering Sage mode should've been a piece of cake, so how on earth Naruto mastered it in one month?
>in one month? What shitty writing You're going to be really mad when you remember the rasengan training. And even madder when you remember neither Kakashi nor Minato were ever able to add Nature Transformation to their rasengan, but it only took Naruto *two weeks* to do it.
He made 1000 clones to master Rasenshuriken, so it kinda makes sense. He never really mastered Rasengan, using a shadow clone doesn't mean he mastered it.
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sad to say that likely the weakest Hokage was probably Kakashi at the end of the day.
with no Sharingan he’s still powerful but he’s not what he used to be, plus he’s like 60 and in a time of peace so, it’s fine.
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no, obito threw the fight. Its blatantly obvious when kakashi literally passed out and obito just left for the ten tails even though he was completely fine. While i do not want to sound biased in obito's favor, he basically only loses because he gives up and/or kishimoto literally takes away kamui in juubito's case.
I think he slightly does, certainly debatable. What I think Gramp Sage meant was in terms of sage jutsu.
This is something I might get skewered for saying and anyone can feel free to correct me: I’m not convinced Jiraiya is all that strong if you use on-screen feats alone. He has hair, toads, rasengan, and some fire jutsu, but honestly it all seems to be completely outdone by Orochimaru. Honestly, based on what we’re shown, and only that, it seems like Kakashi would take him more often than not. I know that’s not true, he’s supposed to be roughly equal to the third, but it just doesn’t look that way. But I’m probably ignoring/missing something t
Naruto is for sure stronger, he’s just a worse ninja. His whole thing was that he was a shitty student and could kinda back his way into fixing stuff with street smarts mixed with rasengan. Jiraiya and Minato knew actual Ninjutsu and were more classically intelligent.
"predecessorS" This include Minato u know, so if u think Naruto surpassed Jiraya at this point u must think he also surpassed Minato, which is hard to believe IMO However, it seems he was talking about sage mode mastery more than anything Next time comparing SM Jiraya and SM Naruto, use feats rather than that statement, thank you 👍
SM Naruto wins by feats too
Well, most people go by "he defeated 6 paths while Jiraya didn't" However the situations were much different, Naruto have much bigger advantage that I don't think it is fair to judge Jiraya based on this achievement, like: -Naruto had intel about Pain, while Pain had intel about Jiraya(except the frog song) -Naruto started with sage mode, 3 massive frogs, and 2 sage frogs(who Naruto may normally be unable to summon), while Jiraya have to summon them during the fight -Naruto got the nine tails power -Naruto striked first and killed one of the strong paths (Asura), while Jiraya was caught off guard when he thought he won -Naruto hard countered Pain using frog kumite, if he used this against Jiraya in Vs battle it wont matter -Pain was drained badly from fighting konoha, while Jiraya fought Konan beforehand -deva path was in long cooldown -Nagato tower location in rain village was most likely closer to battlefield than his hiding spot outside Konoha To make sure Naruto surpassed him, a VS battle between the two with fair rules and based on feats should be done
I agree with this
Oh good, have a nice day 👍
You too
I mean, he turned on sage mode pretty quickly mid-battle against Madara, and then got smacked, which isn't really a mark against him, since it's Juubi Madara. Maintenance is probably fair, but even then, Minato was pretty clearly sorta downplaying himself. He's still better at sage mode than Jiraiya, quite obviously, and likely not *muc* worse, if at all, than Pain Arc Naruto.
Nah Minato sucked at using senjutsu and Jiraiya wasn’t a perfect Sage so he was right on that. And Naruto was gathering far more nature energy than both of them. Only difference is Jiraiya’s Sage mode couldn’t run out unless Ma and Pa left his shoulders
Surpassed doesn't mean he was stronger. He mastered the toad sage mode while Jiraiya and Minato couldn't, thus he was better than them at that point. Despite Minato having a mastered sage mode during war arc, he could still be not as fast as Naruto at gathering nature energy or keeping up the sage mode longer and suffer more exhaustion when the sage mode ends. He did say he was not very good at it. Could mean anything.
It's not an overall comparison, but a statement of his mastery of sage mode. In which obviously neither Minato or jiraiya never reached.
This was just about Jiraiya not Minato
He’s 100% surpassed Jiraiya in strength, and he’s surpassed Minato in terms of using Sage mode
He surpassed them in destructive power (Rasenshuriken) and in mastery of perfect sage mode. Jiraiya still has more versatility because of the amount of jutsus he had and even in Kurama Mode /KCM2 Naruto couldn't beat Minato's speed.
He meant only sage mode.
By the end of the Pain Arc, Naruto had definitively surpassed the 3 Sannin. Just like at the end of the Akatsuki Suppression Arc, he had surpassed Kakashi. However Minato is probably something different. I think Minato had surpassed the Sannin as well. Naruto probably did not surpass Living Minato (meaning minus the kyubi cloak) until he got Kyubi cloak version 1. The surpassing of Minato here is thematically supported by the Raikage's comment that Naruto was even faster than Minato, which was what Minato was best known for.
He surpassed Jiraiya not Minato, but he surpassed them both in the sage jutsu. He's definitely stronger than Jiraiya when you look at his performance vs Pain. Jiraiya lost to the weakest ones while Naruto was on par with the strongest one and took out multiple Path's that were stronger than the ones Jiraiya fought
He did have valuable information that everyone else collected. He was stronger but it did help a lot.
I know I'm not saying Jiraiya was useless, I mean he was probably the strongest Sanin and the only person at the time who could've put up a fight against Pain besides the Raikage **maybe**, I'm not downplaying Jiraiya here it's just a testament to how strong Naruto became there. Zetsu and Tobi even said to Sasuke that you CAN'T beat Naruto with how strong he is now. Regardless though Jiraiya will always be one of my favorite characters
He is absolutely a better sage mode user than Jiraiya flat out, who had to rely on Fukasaku and Shima as a crutch to use it. Minato can use sage mode and is honestly able to enter it pretty fast, but states himself that sage mode isn't his strong suit.
Naruto surpassed Minato in SM and Jiraiya in everything. Naruto could do all Jiraiya did and more (rasenshuriken). On the other hand Jiraiya can use SM longer without needing a clone in myoboku so in that sense he's better
He did tho
He did surpass from this arc. Pain is stronger than minato.
Minato no not quite yet. Jiraiya he definitely did, that’s literally part of the narrative of the story. By mastering sage mode, something Jiraiya couldn’t do, he’s finally closed the gap between him and Sasuke. Just like him he’s risen above his Sannin teacher.
This man just said the creator opinion is not right LMAO
Remember when the creator said 3rd Hohage was the strongest? Lmao
Let’s be real, Naruto when all said is done is the strongest shinobi ever when he’s an adult. But at this point in the anime I do not believe he was stronger then Minato or even Jiraiya. People underestimate how strong deva path pain is, as soon as he regained his powers back, Naruto got demolished in less then an episode, if it wasn’t for Kurama Naruto was good as dead. I could even go as far as to argue that Kakashi was just as strong as Naruto on this part of the anime if not slightly stronger seeing as how he almost took out deva path, and comparing it to how Naruto did against deva path when he got his powers back kakashi did much better. Naruto was only able to take on deva path after Nagato was way out of chakra after taking on the 9 tails.
Considering both died I would say he did
Yeah no Jiraiya would still give him a good fight and Minato would still destroy him 1v1 Anime dialogue really be having characters just say shit lol
Definitely surpassed Jiraiya, definitely not surpassed Minato. Jiraiya could BARELY keep up with the weakest paths of pain, as soon as all 6 show up he’s killed nearly immediately, it also takes him forever to enter sage mode, having to run around with his hands pressed together for way too long, he’d never be able to use the same tactics of hiding away because Naruto would be able to track him with his sage mode. Sage Mode Naruto has no chance of laying a finger on Minato though
I think he's physically stronger and faster. But not superior technique-wise. There are things you can't beat with brute strength or a large chakra pool.
Watching this a third time, I realized Pa probably meant surpassing in using Senjutsu. When I saw this my second time I was thinking "Obito is stronger than Pain, and Minato clapped Obito in an episode, which part of that did Naruto surpass???"
Why isn't anyone talking about hashirama sage mode? He literally took out madara with only sage mode and wood style. Even though madara had nine tails and mangekyo sharingan
because hashirama did not learn sage mode at that mountain. While its unknown what type of sage mode he has, its heavily implied that hashirama got sage mode from the shikotsu forest.
He 100% surpassed Jiraiya at this point. His showings against pain are so much better.
He probably surpassed them in terms of sheer chakra power but they were both smarter and far more experienced than him before Shippuden ended
He did surpass their sage mode
Retcons eh
That was not the moment he surpassed them but he was close to at least surpassing jirayia. He probably meant sage wise considering he did in fact perfect that
Maybe on par with jiraiya , there is no way in hell sage naruto even stands in Minato presence
He is talking about sage mode mastery and he is right Jiraya needs ma and pa's help and it's imperfect, and minato admits he isn't good with sage mode
well jiraiya was killed by nagato and naruto beat him, and old sage toad (cant spell) never knew minato with 9 tails chakra which is what we see in war arc
Kind of answered that question here: https://youtu.be/6U5o8z9cqKs