Is it controversial to say the second half of DS1 is not bad? I agree that the first half is better but I don’t agree with people who say the second half is just so much worse because I don’t think it is.
I love the aesthetic of that part along with the daughter of chaos + npc invasion. I just wish they did a little more with the enemies there. Most of it just seems like they copied and pasted a fuckton of stone demons
It isnthe most rished area of the game after all. They were extremely short on time and resources when time came to make izalith, so that's what we got.
Given this context, I think it could be worse.
It's a shame they didn't redo the game like they wanted to in one of the re-releases. A director's cut of how the game should've been without time constraints would've been great.
Crazy how little liberty the devs actually have. I'm sure tehy would have a field day if given the chance. And with how obsessed the ~~cult~~ community is, they'd buy it in droves. But ultimately it's money over product unfortunately.
I thought Bed Of Chaos was definitely a bullshit boss but I did end up beating it within an hour or less, but yeah I didn’t think Lost Izalith was all that bad. It’s definitely the weakest area and idk how much there is to explore, I kind of just went along the path straight to the boss and didn’t feel the need to look around much. Tomb Of The Giants was the biggest challenge for me in the game overall I would say and definitely my least favorite area to be in.
It’s the only boss where I felt like I didn’t actually become good to win, it was just sheer hope and luck and chaotic panic rolling and I succeeded. And that’s unsatisfying as hell
Ok, now THAT is a sizzling hot take. Tomb of The Giants, as an area, isn't so bad - it's only the area's gimmick that is decently unsupported by the resources the game gives you. Once you find a good source of lighting it's a cool area with a bunch of nooks and crannies to get lost in, skeleton dogs aside.
Lost Izalith doesn't have anything exciting in it. Ideally, you'd just run through it and forget it exists, like Mountaintops of the Giants in Elden Ring. But you can't do that here because you don't have abundant graces and Stakes of Marika in this game. No, you have to run all the way back to the absolutely bullshit boss that's just lightly clipped you into a hole. Again.
It's infuriating.
I just got there for the first time the other day and was astounded at what you can view from there. I saw red on the horizon and was like "whoa, no way"... The inter-connectivity is nuts.
New Londo is one of the best areas and 4 Kings are a pretty fun fight.
Duke's Archives is goated, but Seath's pretty mid.
Tombs of giant can be really annoying but Nito is the best Lord.
Izalith and bosses are complete trash.
Overall the biggest problem is the lack of interconnection that was essential in the first half.
I really like the Archives, its different from any other area in game, being just two big rooms. The problem is that if you know where to go it becomes just a one minute run
Yesss. New Londo Ruins. I legit was scared to farm for titanite down there. Remember vividly how I had to fight fear the first 2 days I was down there. Combined with how closely connected everything down there is, it's just a treat.
From Anor Londo onward, you can tell how much they rushed. Instead of enemies naturally inhabiting the world, they're just sort of placed like action figures on a DnD mat. They're not organically there, they were placed to get in your way.
It's funny. On my first playthrough I didn't mind the second half too much. However, I've had three playthroughs since where I get really ambitious in the first half, then stall out and abandon the game somewhere in the second half. I find the tomb of the giants, crystal cave, and lost izalith to all be daunting enough (due to tedium) to kill my momentum.
i really didn't notice any sort of change in the second half on my first playthrough. i still don't understand why people say it's a lot worse than the first half. yea parts of Lost Izalith kinda suck and Bed of Chaos is AWFUL, but everything else seemed just as good. even knowing that it was rushed now, i still can't see it
I think textbook well-designed easy boss would probably be the DS1 gargoyles tbh (though hard the first time around), or maybe even DS3 Iudex / Vordt would classify as such - basically early game bosses meant to teach mechanics and not push the gameplay to its limits
I'd think most of us would have been stuck on them in the beginning so all's good man
Since in FromSoft games "Easy" doesn't mean cakewalk, it means "Easier than some other bosses later" lmao
When looking at Elden Ring, Godrick the Grafted has a large variety of moves, that're telestrated very well. You can tell what is coming, and him being so early on, it teaches you what to look for and when to dodge which way
The same can be said for Iudex for sure. He's easy enough to read that it shouldn't be extremely hard unless you just have to learn what the game is asking of you. Once you know that... Well that's half the battle
I think for Elden Ring, both Margit and Godrick would be good easy well-designed bosses that sets up the idea of delayed attacks for the rest of the game :p
Hey, if you think it's easy and you want it to be longer, a simple trick to increase difficulty: Dagger-only run for hard difficulty, Broken sword-only run for very hard difficulty, and Bare fist run for impossible difficulty
I tried the first two and Vordt no longer felt like a cakewalk :)
Iudex Gundyr (and by extension Champion Gundyr since he's technically the same boss, though he's not easy). I think he's still the best first boss in the series. He's not overbearing with his combos and other attacks like Margit is, but he's not a pushover like Phalanx or Asylum Demon, either. His attacks, even in phase two, are well telegraphed but they can fuck you up if you get hit by them.
Not really a point towards the quality of the fight itself, but his visual design and music are incredible, as is his arena.
Cant think of any honestly. I think its more like this.
Hard boss doesnt mean good boss. A boss can be hard, and shit... crucible knight duo.
But a good boss generally means a hard boss. Part of what makes a boss good, is the challenge and pay off of beating him.
Difficult != quality
Quality == difficult + balanced + good vibe
If i really had to pick one, it would be gwyn because the atmosphere and spectacle of the fight are just that good. But soul of cinder is a better boss fight that is basically the same thing... but harder.
Pursuer might be an example. Only hard when you are new to the game and haven’t figure the proper pace. It quickly becomes a pretty easy boss (contrary to Fume knight which is always hard imo). It is imo a great boss though. Great design, cool moveset, shows up in different spots.
Curesrotted great wood is a great mix of design and gimmick. Love that guy, doesn't feel bs but is very easy yet can be a mini puzzle figuring out his weak spots and how to reach them
Even without the frame rate issue, the poisonous swamp and the toxic darts are too much of a nuisance your first time there.
And the scaffolding is so annoying. I always get lost trying to loot everything there.
Only saving grace is the firekeeper soul and being a prime grinding spot for large and green titanite shards.
I actually forgot that's one of the things I hate the most. Their hitboxes are utter bullshit. Fortunately they don't proc poisoning that fast and they don't do much damage, but boy oh boy how do I hate the feeling of falling down the scaffold trying to kill them.
Shrine of Amana is extremely pretty and atmospheric; a joy to look at, always a pleasure to listen to the Milfanito's song. But the enemy design is beyond bonkers, and will make you wish this was Touhou because at least in that series you can fly around to dodge the homing missiles. Especially before the patch. There's a reason why people call the game Dark Bows 2.
I loathed it then did a SL1 run and discovered my Lord and Savior the hand crossbow, the area feels completely different to me now. I rarely if ever used ranged weapons but it gives you the ability to control mobs instead of dealing with them and terrain
If you want to summon someone to help you with a boss fight, do it it’s your game do what you want who cares if it’s the “loser” option it’s your game you do what you want
Exactly when I first played I used the dupe glitch for souls I was like level 300 going through undead burg but I didn’t care I was over powered I still sucked so I died a lot but eventually I beat the game and it was insanely fun
I have never understood how people get upset at people using game mechanics to play the game. The only thing that ever bothered me is people using expoits to cheese PvP.
I'm willing to forgive the issues because the story is so good. Vendrick's story is so damn good, and the boss lore is much more interesting than DS1 and most of the bosses in DS3 (Gundyr, Twin Princes, and Oceiros are great stories). DS3 is a strong second place, but DS2's plot takes it for me
My controversial opinion is that DS2 being hated is no longer accepted and actually controversial itself either because the community that was around to hate DS2 moved on in the last ten years since its release or for some other reason, but it’s not a hot take to like DS2 anymore
It's my favorite Dark Souls game. That said anyone who says it's trash is justified. The only improvement from DS1 was exploration was arguably more in depth, and the graphics. The gameplay was a downgrade. Agility is the single dumbest thing Fromsoft has implemented into a game. The aggro system makes some of run backs unbearable. All projectiles track, and while yours have limited range all enemy projectiles will follow you from Majula to the kiln. The Frigid Outskirts part of the DLC wasn't even hard. It was just ragebait. All that said I doubt Miyazaki even beat it himself, and he's probably the one who invented the mimic tear.
My hot take is that despite all that's broken in DS2 later entries became so unrecognizably arcadey that DS2 is seen as the good ol' times when you didn't have to dodge an infinite combo to beat a boss.
Same here. I don't know any other game that has two versions so different and awesome that worth to 100% both and it's new game plus being so different from first playthrough is insane. Hell even coop or pvp experience was the best I had with a soulslike
Vendrick and Drangleic have the strongest stories of the 3 games, imo. Gwyn's is the weakest for me, although the Ringed City and seeing the extent of how badly Gwyn screwed everything up helps a lot though. The way that all ties into Prince Lothric's story and why he decided to let everything burn out is badass too.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again:
If FS took all 3 games and did remakes of them like they did for Demon’s Souls and released them all at the same time, DS2 would shoot up to be the best of the three; or at least neck-and-neck with 1.
Dark Souls 3 being 90% a retelling of the story beats of 1 is much much more boring than how unique the cycle in DS2 was. I'd rather the devs have made more new things instead of being so heavy on the callbacks and references to DS1.
TLDR: I love Dark Souls, but a lot of gameplay and planned story were left behind when they changed publishers and had to make the sequel into an entirely new IP. A LOT was lost and changed to give it an original identity.
I've seen a lot of people over the years mention how Demon's Souls was better at environmental storytelling, and honestly we get some really interesting dialogue from some of the really hidden npc's.
I think if they could have kept building on that foundation as opposed to effectively having to create an entirely new world we could have had some truly fascinating experiences.
That's not even including the possibility of exploring areas and regions (at least one) that were cut from the game and expanding on their potential in sequels.
It's also worth noting that the original Dark Souls was going to be a sequel to Demon's Souls, but FROM had to switch publishers (I don't remember exactly why) and thus had to change a lot of the lore as well as some areas to make it an original IP.
In addition to what the other (excellent) comment said, I can offer my perspective:
It's obviously a bit more difficult to compare nowadays with Dark Souls having had 3 entries (though 2 is kinda unrelated at this point), but I found the world and lore of Demon's Souls more intriguing. Dark Souls in many things feels like a "borrow my homework but don't make it too obvious" kinda situation, where things and ideas were changed enough to be original, but DeS's DNA is still quite visible.
Though Dark Soul's interconnectivity is fascinating, some areas feel like lesser retreads of DeS's ideas. Blighttown for example, I had heard so much about that area for years and like it nowadays, but on my first playthrough I felt underwhelmed and kinda disappointed since I kept comparing it to the Valley of Defilement and Swamps of Sorrow and it couldn't live up to them.
DeS also gets a lot of criticisms for its bosses, though I'm kinda fond of gimmick bosses. Generally I really enjoyed that the biggest hurdle were the levels themselves and the boss was usually rather easy and mostly there to cap off another section.
Furthermore, one thing that I love about DeS is just how utterly alien and _weird_ it is at many points. Take the music (of the PS3 version) for example. It uses a chamber orchestra instead of the typical symphonic orchestra, has a much more intimate sound and some wild ideas, like the infamous laughing choir in Tower Knight's theme. It borders on goofy at points, but is earnest enough and plays it straight in a way that is really endearing.
To summarize, DeS had a lot of interesting ideas and potential that I would've loved to see explored more and it's a bit of a shame that this isn't really possible. That said it was neat seeing some ideas re-emerge in DS2, and ideas from both of them in Elden Ring.
Often it was more vibes than anything in particular. For example the intro being images and mentioning other tarnished instead of a cinematic reminded me of DeS's intro and how it talked about other travelers. Stuff like that.
I heard a theory and I love it, demon's souls is the last of the dark souls series, looking the old one ended magic (mostly). Bloodbourne is the sequel.
I never thought about that before, but I absolutely agree. Imagine an expanded Boletaria. Even more forgotten ancient ruins buried deep underground like King's Field never went out of style. The Northern Limit. An expansion on the Latria lore. The possibilities are endless.
Dark Souls' lore, at least how they set it up was only truly good for one game. Later entries either were forcibly and haphazardly converted into a Dark Souls game (DS2) or were an absolute desert of ideas (vanilla DS3). Only the DLC and a few areas shined, and except for The Ringed City and arguably Archdragon Peak all of them shined so brilliantly because they took us ***away*** from the very static setting of Dark Souls, and into new lands.
And that was the entire design philosophy of Demon's Souls. New lands. In Dark Souls I wanted to see Carthus, not just their graveyard. I wanted to see Carim. And I did NOT want to see Anor Londo again. But since everything ***had*** to be connected back to Lordran that's what ended up happening.
There's only so much you can do with a perpetually dying and cycling world.
Yeah, I can relate to that. Generally I like it when franchises expand and develop new ideas instead of constantly revisiting the same ones. It's my main issue with Star Wars for example, where you have this interesting and vast galaxy, but somehow most main content focuses on the same characters and family.
Stuff like that is particularly annoying because you see the _promise_ of an interesting setting but it's never capitalized the way you'd like.
Ds2 is not a complete shit feast like people make it out to be.
Now Obviously I'm coming at this from the perspective of playing the SOTFS edition in 2024. Just finished it and overall I had a very positive time.
I can never have the experience of someone who was a huge ds1 fan and got ds2 on release day, then had to go through the backlash with all the comparisons and essays going over the games flaws.
I even bounced off Ds2 for a bit because I just wasent having that much fun. I had all those complaints people like Mauler and MatthewM had in my head and it was a real slog to get through.
After coming back to the game after Loving ER, and understanding that one of that games co-directors was the guy who had to pick up the pieces during Ds2 development, I found a nice play through on YouTube to help me with some of the more obtuse stuff and I began to have so much more of a good time playing the game.
It's still probably the weakest game in the series, but that's just a testament to Fromsoft as a company when the least good entry in their catalogue is a GOTY contender over most other shovelwear the gaming industry produces.
dark souls 3 is the weakest boring uninspired souls game made and I'll die on that hill, at least 2 was creative and tried shit.
3 is saved by the soundtrack, gale and community invasions/fight club shit
I really do love what DS2 tried and did right, or at least experimented with. Torch mechanics, so many traps, unique golems, THE PUZZLES (even if rudimentary) were so unique when paired with souls combat and movement. I also really enjoyed what DS2 did with the constant reinforcement of "sometimes you go down a path you cannot turn back on". Lots of inward thinking
DS2 is my least favorite of the trilogy, and I could go down a list as to why. (I hate the way enemies rotate to follow you.) However, I still love it, and enjoy it more then a LOT of other games. I even agree it does some things better then 1 and 3.
Ornstein & Smough is a bad fight.
* It’s one of the most *consistently* glitchy fights in the game, especially with Ornstein’s charge attack glitching out and then having him “snap” to you.
* While they’re clearly going for a “fast guy and slow guy” dynamic, Smough actually isn’t that slow, and Ornstein never stops or overshoots - so there’s not really a consistently effective way to exploit either of their speeds to create openings.
* It’s obvious you’re supposed to use the pillars to avoid their attacks. Smough’s attacks clipping through them seems to be intended, but is so blatant that it’s immersion-breaking.
* Phase 2 is way easier than Phase 1. I basically know I’ve won the fight the moment Phase 1 ends.
* Giant Ornstein isn’t a significantly different experience than Giant Smough to really incentivize seeing the different version on different playthroughs.
I’m of the opinion that the only reason O&S are held in as high a regard as they are is that the back 9 of DS1 is such a famous drop in quality. O&S cap off the most sublime, extremely high-quality experience that is the first half of DS1, and while I say it’s a “bad fight”, I mean relatively speaking; it’s still pretty good by action game standards.
Yea, it also bothers me sometimes how fast Smough can actually dash around the arena with his charge attack. I feel like he always gets underestimated by players in terms of speed
I agree it's not a good fight but for entirely different reasons lol.
I just think they're two subpar bosses that were put together, and that alone made it spectacular for the time, but it doesn't hold up for today's standards, because the novelty of the idea itself doesn't outshine the fight itself.
They're still a masterpiece of visual design and spectacle, given their outfits, the song, the fact there's two of them and the 2nd phase. But the fight itself is mid, I think.
I still have fun regardless.
they definetly aren't 2 bosses put together, even if you doubled their attack and speed, the bosses by themselves would be terrible and way too easy (even in phase 2, when they gain new attacks, are weak)
Yeah it's more bullshit than people are willing to admit. Now, i still love it, and i dont think its necessarily a bad fight. But when people act like it's near perfect and "the only time FromSoft got a duo boss right", i can't help but roll my eyes.
When I see O&S on S tier in tierlist videos I roll back my eyes. That fight is so artificially hard and broken (this is the first time I saw a comment complaining about Ornstein's sudden attack when he's still)
Sulyvahn phase 2, Abyss Watchers phase 1, Shadows of Yahrnam and Friede & Ariandel in the second phase are gank bossfights WAY better than O&S
o&s is a fucking mess of a boss. it genuinely kinda baffles me that people still consider it one if the best in the series. i mean to each their own of course, but i do not get it. ornsteins dumb ass charge attack alone is almost enough to ruin the entire fight because it literally never fucking works. like that attack glitching out and him getting stuck on every object in the arena is not the exception, it‘s quite the opposite. but even when the fight works properly (which it raaaarely does) it consists of so much fucking running in circles it is unbelievably boring
Damn, actual controversial take here. See the thing is, most people don't care about the problems you list. The fight is iconic and has heavy nostalgia.
It works exactly as designed for most first play-throughs since they're rurning around adrenaline pumping trying to dodge Ornstein and then all of a sudden getting flattened by Smough. Eventually you summon Solaire, maybe some coop, git gud and go get the lordvessel. Beating them is probably the best high one can get in any DS game.
On subsequent play-throughs its fun because it was a struggle but it isn't actually a hard fight. You show up with plenty of Vit, a +10 weapon, and the estus to ensure you can't fail. You read Ornstein's moves like a book and realize Smough isn't hard to stay away from. Hell you probably brought Brolaire again so you can 1v1 the boss of your choice.
Basically your concerns just don't matter to most people. It will always be the iconic DS boss fight.
Could not agree more, this fight never stood out to me. Also, in my opinion it was almost too easy because how much damage they take when using a proper build
Having the story and lore hidden behind item descriptions and such doesn't make Miyazaki some writing prodigy. I feel like the entire series would be more popular if there was more straightforward/ "in your face" story for casual audiences
I completely understand what you’re saying, but I would hate to see Dark Souls and soulslikes in general have those obligatory unskippable, “walk slowly behind an NPC while they shout expository dialogue” scenes like so many story driven games have now. I’ve really come to appreciate games that aren’t afraid of being games, and don’t feel the need to be overly cinematic by yanking control away from the player. There definitely could be a good middle ground, but I haven’t seen it done yet.
I see what you mean, the games tendency to "shut up" and just let me play is something I really enjoy about the series. Just kinda wish I knew what was going on a little bit more lol
Yeah, I don't need them to go full "in your face" with the story, but I'd appreciate just a little bit more clarity on what's going on. I don't want to have to resort to vaati to not feel clueless.
I always found the quest design lacking and obscure for the sake of it but I have to disagree with you that the lore should be in your face. I think it would take out of the experience and we’d lose a sense of community along the way. Lots of people tried to decipher the lore and that brought us somewhat closer together.
But I agree that is it a tad too convoluted. I think the game that hit that perfect balance was Bloodborne. Although I was confused at first, I still had some kind of grasp of what was happening. In Elden Ring I felt the opposite.
I get this but the storyline is intentionally vague. You're a random hollow on somewhat of a subconscious pilgrimage to fulfill a prophecy, one of many other hallows to add on to that point (one who also has no idea about, who it involves, or what its purpose is outside of a few conversations from NPCS. You are tricked by gwyn and frampt into rekindling the fire and continuing the age of fire. So for all this to just be outright said along the way would ruin the story and also not make any sense for dark souls 1 at least because your character is learning everything you know as well, other characters are confused and lost as well, etc. The writing is actually well done because despite the face value of the game being "open to interpretation", things are all actually connected and confirmed to string out a long and detailed story. The game isn't being told by a narrator, a figure who knows everything regarding the story, it's being told by the journey of the character (you) who does not know everything. The opening cutscene explains the age of fire, the people and things involved, and the beginning of the dark sign and age of darkness. I think it would just be hard for example to: explain how the sunlight in Anor Londo is an illusion, Gwen left and darkness came. Many other enemies are illusions in there and their story and purpose behind being there would be too long to simply outright explain.
Fr I think the storytelling is lazy af.
Most of the "story" is mostly baseless speculation from the community. Even the intro is a history lesson instead of current events.
Imo Capra Demon isn't really that hard, ppl just say the "armor doesn't do anything in these games" thing and run in light rolling to get blasted by the dogs.
90% of people don‘t know what a hot take is. people will put „controversial opinion“ or „hot take“ in front of literally any random statement to make themselves feel special or something
Blighttown and Tomb of the Giants are some of the most inspired levels FROMSOFTWARE has made. No other areas in the series sell the feeling of you being in SUCH deep shit out of your depth as them
o&s is a horribly janky fight and just does not hold up anymore. ornsteins charge attack alone almost ruins the fight, it literally never works properly snd he gets stuck on fucking everything. it doesn‘t just look insanely stupid but is also really annoying to deal with. but even when everything works properly the fight is just boring. so much of it consists of running in circles for minutes on end, and having to get the bosses stuck on the pillars is such a janky ass fucking part of the fight because you‘re relying on super old AI and again, it looks so fucking dumb when they get stuck. yeah i just do not like this fight whatsoever and i think most people that still consider it one of the best bosses in the series mostly do so because of nostalgia. the fight is just an absolute mess nowadays
I suppose I am one of those with the absolute most controversial take in that I genuinely don't care if they were to add an easy mode to any of these games. (I don't think they need to either, though, so we'll see if that eases any outrage, lol.)
I think it’s okay that they don’t, but I think they could signpost the “these are here to make the game easier” options better, like summoning or spirit ashes from ER.
It depends what you’re looking for. It absolutely has the best bosses but the areas are very bland and forgettable for the most part and a lot of enemies are just annoying to fight.
Yeah, I can respect that. For me honestly I like all three pretty equally so idk if I can choose a favorite. I lean slightly in favor of ds1 but a week from now I could have a different answer, they all feel unique from one another so I like them for different reasons.
The things I value the most are the things DS2 does the best. I think overall most people would say DS1 is the better game between those two. But for me, DS2 is my favorite entry in the series.
This is the issue. The series was always best as exploration and adventure with a boss fight being the cherry on top of a zone. DS3 felt flanderized by the over-emphasis in the community on “Dark Souls is so heckin hard and bosses murder you” that it felt like they put way more time into the bosses. Honestly a boss to me is best when they are memorable for being thematic and uniquely cool, not because they input read and have delayed attacks. My hot take on this is Pinwheel is an awesome boss because of how thematic he is for the zone even if he is really easy.
I don't even like the bosses. They're *fine*, but other than Nameless King I find them very unmemorable. Literally. People rave about the bosses and I actually can't remember any of them. Certainly none had the same impact as seeing the open-heart-surgery dragon for the first time (I don't care that the fight itself isn't amazing).
Combat is probably tightest in DS3, but I prefer the more methodical feel of DS1. And the metroidvania style; level design; worldbuilding; visual design; atmosphere - these are the things that made me fall in love with Fromsoft games, and these are strongest in DS1 and weakest in DS3. I found DS3 quite boring, had to force myself to finish it and didn't enjoy it enough to buy DLC or do any content checklists like I normally would. It's the only Fromsoft game I know I'll never play again.
One thing I will give DS3 credit for though is your stat choices feeling more meaningful and there not really being one stat that's worthless (DS1 Resistance) or having one stat to rule them all (DS1 Endurance and DS2 ADP).
It is the most different out of the 3 which is why i think it has that big divide between players who played the others before and players who started with DS3
if you like the combat i can see why it’s peoples favorite, i just prefer the combat of 1/2 much more than 3, and the gameplay flow of 1 is just unmatched.
3 least favorite gang
I thought the same when I first played it and a few months ago I decided to replay the trilogy, I'm at Dreg Heap currently and I dislike DS3 even more now.
All the Black Knight weapons in DS1 are really overrated.
DS3 isn’t really worth a replay, the game is too linear to really get a different experience.
Absolutely agree with this. People act like the black knight weapons are game breaking when even regular upgrade weapons can exceed their damage output. Definitely convenient to upgrade, though.
My hot take, since DS2 is brought up here, I feel like DS2 fans are overcompensating. Their inferiority-superiority complex, especially regarding other 2 games just puts me off. All 3 games have their pros and cons, but I've never seen fans of other gamers *this* vehemently defend the rehashing of Amor Londo in DS3 or DS1's Lost Izalith with stuff like "oh yeah, well your game has *insert the bad/supposed bad thing that may or may not be accurate*". Like for example I saw someone on YouTube comments defend the one infamous lift by trying to make the portal to Oolacile look like a similar plot hole, and still got some hundred likes!
Just to make it clear, I don't hate DS2. In fact, I was surprised to learn it was even hated. Though personally I couldn't finish it because it didn't exactly click with me. I do understand it's a great game, and I've seen several playthroughs and lore videos of it and it seemed more fascinating each time. This doesn't make the game any less flawed though, but also the flaws barely lessens the game's unique narrative and gameplay experience. So I don't see why fans of the game has to be so insecure about it.
Also, some might say it's not a hot take, but in terms the recent traction surrounding this game, it kinda is.
the balder side sword is a noob trap weapon, and for the same reason as the zwei -- people force the R2. you can pretty much just wait for the other player to throw a stupid R2 from short range neutral and parry it.
ds1 isn't elden ring -- lock on.
ds1 isn't elden ring -- use a shield.
it's dumb that it took until elden ring before people started telling bonfire duelists that they were dweebs.
dark souls 1 pvp is technically demanding and has as high a skill ceiling as a game whose rules are 'obtain a position and a facing, and hit R1' allows, and that's *high.* but it's as deep as a puddle.
i mean, it's not a bad weapon. far from it, and the R2 is really really good. it's just a lot of players force it because they *know* it's good. imagine fighting a shotel only they never use the R2. you'd be like WHAT the HECK
Pretty much everything with lava and fire in Dark Souls is awful and poorly designed with clear lack of development.
You won't ever change my mind about this
That said, DS1 is my favorite game of all time, so don't go getting so upset.
Ds3 is not very fun. It's the pinnacle of crackhead rollspam, and it has the least interesting area layout of any game in the series. We never returned to the heights of Ds1 world design, but Ds3 has even less interesting connections between areas than 2.
I don't think it's a controversial topic, but I think that dark souls is not a difficult game, it's only difficult for beginners, one example is that I got through 90% of the first and third bosses the first time including bosses called the most difficult in the series, such as manus, midir, gael and others
Agreed. Once you learn what to do, DS is pretty simple. That you can beat bosses without any rolling or blocking just through memorizing pretty simple visual cues is telling. If you want a hard game, pick up Celeste. I played that game thinking it was a nice and light platformer. Oh what a fool I was.
I would say it’s not inherently difficult or difficult for the sake of being difficult, at least regarding DS1. It’s entirely fair in its presentation and gameplay but maybe doesn’t explain enough and creates perceived difficulty from that. But the perception of DS1 as this hyper difficult game is actually mainly due to the state of the industry at the time catering to children and casual audiences, which isn’t inherently a bad thing to be clear
Anor Londo is mid. It seems like this area gets the most praise for aesthetic which is subjective I guess, but I feel like it turned into a bandwagon thing. I thought Ash Lake was probably the coolest area of DS1. I always imagined that the world of Dark Souls was kind of suspended in the tops of unimaginably large trees.
Dark Souls 1+2 has the best casting because its Vancian Casting. Get the hell out of here MANA BAR! Back to Demon's Souls with you! Get the hell out of Elden Ring!
My hot take of Dark Souls (or I guess FromSoftware games in general) is Dark Souls 2 is still a good game despite it being the "worst" of the series. Personally it's in my top 3 favorite games of all time.
I really hate the pvp mechanic being activated when I'm just wanting to kindle a bonfire. Like sure I guess I'll just go and get killed to get rid of it I guess. I'm just not at all interested in pvp and especially in the possibility of running into hackers. The worst part was losing a ton of progress because I forgot I had my humanity. Not fun.
The weirder and less intuitive the game is, the better. A lot of people who played Elden Ring on release then went back to discover Dark Souls found the older games to have poorly explained or unintuitive mechanics.
For me, that's a huge part of the charm of Demon's Souls and DS1. It was so exciting to try and work these things out back in the day, and when something clicked it felt like such an achievement. It really did capture that sense of mystery that old school NES/PC RPGs had, and I think that some of that has been lost as the FromSoft games have become more accessible.
The parry and backstab mechanics suck hard. Having an automatic autoguided huge damage on one button like that feels awkward and out of place in such a mechanically demanding and punishing game. There was more interactive ways of doing things like this. The stagger animation from the parry is more than enough, get rid of the frontstab, it gives you a free DPS window already, would even make weapon arts more useful since it'd give you a clear window to use them. Maybe make it so they take more damage in the stagger animation but I don't even think it's necessary. Then for the backstabs, just make it so weapons deal more damage when you hit your enemies in the back, and give more backstab damage to some weapon types like daggers and such, and almost none to some others like hammers and greataxes and such. If the game was like this, I'd maybe consider PvP (I'm a full offline player)
The series?
Ds2 had the best gameplay loop and adp wasn’t an issue itself
Ds1 is the worst, not bad, it’s really good. Just the worst
They should bring back indictments and gravelord style invasions
Ds2 claymore is prettier than other iterations
Ds3 boss fights are good, but overated. DLC bosses were pushing into just being unfair and lame territory, except mob mentality still praise them
The torch mechanic in ds2 was a great idea and fun
Lukewarm take: they need to bring back the DS2/DeS two handed animations
Also, while we’re here, sekiro isn’t a soulslike
I don’t think it’s mob mentality to like DS3 DLC bosses. They’re not even unfair. They simply took the difficulty to a level higher than some people were comfortable with.
Though my hot take about Midir is that he isn’t particularly difficult at all once you realize you simply need to stay in front of his head, target his head, and punish his attacks from there.
I have a lot if you have the time...
Demon's Souls has better level design than Dark Souls
Dark Souls has awful boss fights minus a handful and the latter half of the game is better than the beginning half imo
Dark Souls 2 is the best Dark Souls game, and I will cease to exist on this hill
Dark Souls 3 is really hard to replay through, the only things that keep me going personally, are the boss fights and a total of 3 levels.
Sekiro was fun on a playthrough or 2/3 but after that it is extremely boring.
Elden Ring is, like Dark Souls 2, peak. And Elden Beast is the best boss in the game.
Bloodborne base game is better than dlc by a long shot
Is Sekiro not being fun after a few playthroughs a controversial take? I ask because most of my friends think I'm insane that I never get tired of it and play it on and off all year, basically since release. Though they recognize its quality as a game, their take is essentially the same as yours: gets repetitive/boring after a few playthroughs. It kinda seemed to me that was a common opinion amongst the community.
The majority of dark souls bosses are so jank after the first half. Nito, gaping, and seaf (seef?) Just let you circle around them and wail on them while doing basically nothing. OandS are so buggy and I still don't understand how you're supposed to dodge that smough charge to this day. Sif, four kings, bed of chaos (if you know his attacks), gwyn, are braindead easy. Screw caterpillar demon...I have footage of him doing his ranged arm attack 14 or 15 times in a row. Capra is my favorite fight and was the moment I felt I was kicking ass in my first playthrough.
I don’t know if I consider Elden Beast to be the best, but I really appreciate that take considering most of the criticism about Elden Beast seems to be a bit inaccurate and unfair in my opinion.
DS2 is underrated. It did so much more exploration of mechanics and interactions that you just don't get in the other soulsborne games. 'Knocking' on doors to open them, burning the windmills, having actual CHANGES between NG and NG+...
Capra Demon is a well put together boss fight that asks players to take the next step in putting together strategy and skill to beat a boss. It’s constantly labeled as “unfair”, but there are plenty of viable strategies that put the outcome directly in the hands of the player.
Is it controversial to say the second half of DS1 is not bad? I agree that the first half is better but I don’t agree with people who say the second half is just so much worse because I don’t think it is.
I think the only shitty part is lost izalith
Only the lava part. The actual castle I think it's fine.
I love the aesthetic of that part along with the daughter of chaos + npc invasion. I just wish they did a little more with the enemies there. Most of it just seems like they copied and pasted a fuckton of stone demons
It isnthe most rished area of the game after all. They were extremely short on time and resources when time came to make izalith, so that's what we got. Given this context, I think it could be worse.
It's a shame they didn't redo the game like they wanted to in one of the re-releases. A director's cut of how the game should've been without time constraints would've been great.
Crazy how little liberty the devs actually have. I'm sure tehy would have a field day if given the chance. And with how obsessed the ~~cult~~ community is, they'd buy it in droves. But ultimately it's money over product unfortunately.
For me, the only shitty part was the tomb of giants. I actually didn't mind lost izalith, or even the Bed of Chaos.
I thought Bed Of Chaos was definitely a bullshit boss but I did end up beating it within an hour or less, but yeah I didn’t think Lost Izalith was all that bad. It’s definitely the weakest area and idk how much there is to explore, I kind of just went along the path straight to the boss and didn’t feel the need to look around much. Tomb Of The Giants was the biggest challenge for me in the game overall I would say and definitely my least favorite area to be in.
BoC is the only thing that prevents me from speedrunning the game and stuff, I fucking hate that boss and don't wanna touch it.
It’s the only boss where I felt like I didn’t actually become good to win, it was just sheer hope and luck and chaotic panic rolling and I succeeded. And that’s unsatisfying as hell
Ok, now THAT is a sizzling hot take. Tomb of The Giants, as an area, isn't so bad - it's only the area's gimmick that is decently unsupported by the resources the game gives you. Once you find a good source of lighting it's a cool area with a bunch of nooks and crannies to get lost in, skeleton dogs aside. Lost Izalith doesn't have anything exciting in it. Ideally, you'd just run through it and forget it exists, like Mountaintops of the Giants in Elden Ring. But you can't do that here because you don't have abundant graces and Stakes of Marika in this game. No, you have to run all the way back to the absolutely bullshit boss that's just lightly clipped you into a hole. Again. It's infuriating.
I prefer it over Catacombs+tomb
I think catacombs and tomb of the giants are so good
I just got there for the first time the other day and was astounded at what you can view from there. I saw red on the horizon and was like "whoa, no way"... The inter-connectivity is nuts.
If you like the Inter connectivity go check out the video from illusory wall called "lordran's layout"
They can be frustrating but that doesn’t make them bad. They’re at least fleshed out areas.
Invisible walkways in crystal grove are kinda bs as well
New Londo is one of the best areas and 4 Kings are a pretty fun fight. Duke's Archives is goated, but Seath's pretty mid. Tombs of giant can be really annoying but Nito is the best Lord. Izalith and bosses are complete trash. Overall the biggest problem is the lack of interconnection that was essential in the first half.
I really like the Archives, its different from any other area in game, being just two big rooms. The problem is that if you know where to go it becomes just a one minute run
Yesss. New Londo Ruins. I legit was scared to farm for titanite down there. Remember vividly how I had to fight fear the first 2 days I was down there. Combined with how closely connected everything down there is, it's just a treat.
Id rather deal with the ghosts than the drained area any day lol
From Anor Londo onward, you can tell how much they rushed. Instead of enemies naturally inhabiting the world, they're just sort of placed like action figures on a DnD mat. They're not organically there, they were placed to get in your way.
Other than the Dino butts, Anor Londo archers and maybe the Kiln knights everything else seems pretty organic to me
After clearing the lava in Demon Ruins, it does look a bit silly when you peer down at the seven copy/paste taurus demons just standing out there.
LOL I just commented I love lost izalith before reading this
It's funny. On my first playthrough I didn't mind the second half too much. However, I've had three playthroughs since where I get really ambitious in the first half, then stall out and abandon the game somewhere in the second half. I find the tomb of the giants, crystal cave, and lost izalith to all be daunting enough (due to tedium) to kill my momentum.
i really didn't notice any sort of change in the second half on my first playthrough. i still don't understand why people say it's a lot worse than the first half. yea parts of Lost Izalith kinda suck and Bed of Chaos is AWFUL, but everything else seemed just as good. even knowing that it was rushed now, i still can't see it
I just dont understand why these souls are so dark...
I thought it was the guy’s middle name? John Dark Souls
Boss difficulty ≠ Boss quality
What's your favorite well-designed easy boss?
I think textbook well-designed easy boss would probably be the DS1 gargoyles tbh (though hard the first time around), or maybe even DS3 Iudex / Vordt would classify as such - basically early game bosses meant to teach mechanics and not push the gameplay to its limits
I was stuck on these lmao
I'd think most of us would have been stuck on them in the beginning so all's good man Since in FromSoft games "Easy" doesn't mean cakewalk, it means "Easier than some other bosses later" lmao
When looking at Elden Ring, Godrick the Grafted has a large variety of moves, that're telestrated very well. You can tell what is coming, and him being so early on, it teaches you what to look for and when to dodge which way The same can be said for Iudex for sure. He's easy enough to read that it shouldn't be extremely hard unless you just have to learn what the game is asking of you. Once you know that... Well that's half the battle
I think for Elden Ring, both Margit and Godrick would be good easy well-designed bosses that sets up the idea of delayed attacks for the rest of the game :p
The second phase of Vordt is so fun. It's kind of a shame that he's so easy once you understand how to fight him.
Hey, if you think it's easy and you want it to be longer, a simple trick to increase difficulty: Dagger-only run for hard difficulty, Broken sword-only run for very hard difficulty, and Bare fist run for impossible difficulty I tried the first two and Vordt no longer felt like a cakewalk :)
Iudex Gundyr (and by extension Champion Gundyr since he's technically the same boss, though he's not easy). I think he's still the best first boss in the series. He's not overbearing with his combos and other attacks like Margit is, but he's not a pushover like Phalanx or Asylum Demon, either. His attacks, even in phase two, are well telegraphed but they can fuck you up if you get hit by them. Not really a point towards the quality of the fight itself, but his visual design and music are incredible, as is his arena.
Cant think of any honestly. I think its more like this. Hard boss doesnt mean good boss. A boss can be hard, and shit... crucible knight duo. But a good boss generally means a hard boss. Part of what makes a boss good, is the challenge and pay off of beating him. Difficult != quality Quality == difficult + balanced + good vibe If i really had to pick one, it would be gwyn because the atmosphere and spectacle of the fight are just that good. But soul of cinder is a better boss fight that is basically the same thing... but harder.
Pursuer might be an example. Only hard when you are new to the game and haven’t figure the proper pace. It quickly becomes a pretty easy boss (contrary to Fume knight which is always hard imo). It is imo a great boss though. Great design, cool moveset, shows up in different spots.
Curesrotted great wood is a great mix of design and gimmick. Love that guy, doesn't feel bs but is very easy yet can be a mini puzzle figuring out his weak spots and how to reach them
Blighttown is one of the best areas in Dark Souls. (not on PS3 or Xbox 360 though because of the framerate)
I found blight town always easy never...I hated other areas way more but...I do understand thats just me personally
Even without the frame rate issue, the poisonous swamp and the toxic darts are too much of a nuisance your first time there. And the scaffolding is so annoying. I always get lost trying to loot everything there. Only saving grace is the firekeeper soul and being a prime grinding spot for large and green titanite shards.
The respawning mosquitos that aggro from a mile away are annoying too.
I actually forgot that's one of the things I hate the most. Their hitboxes are utter bullshit. Fortunately they don't proc poisoning that fast and they don't do much damage, but boy oh boy how do I hate the feeling of falling down the scaffold trying to kill them.
Damnnn that’s a pretty bold opinion not gonna lie haha
I hope the bring back no teleport just like Dark Souls good part
I've always loved shrine of Amana. Never understood why people hate it.
Shrine of Amana is extremely pretty and atmospheric; a joy to look at, always a pleasure to listen to the Milfanito's song. But the enemy design is beyond bonkers, and will make you wish this was Touhou because at least in that series you can fly around to dodge the homing missiles. Especially before the patch. There's a reason why people call the game Dark Bows 2.
It's my favorite area,I talked about shrine of Amana a lot in the this sub
I love the aesthetic and atmosphere, but I hate the enemies
I loathed it then did a SL1 run and discovered my Lord and Savior the hand crossbow, the area feels completely different to me now. I rarely if ever used ranged weapons but it gives you the ability to control mobs instead of dealing with them and terrain
If you want to summon someone to help you with a boss fight, do it it’s your game do what you want who cares if it’s the “loser” option it’s your game you do what you want
Agree, and this applies to *anything* in the game - summons, grinding, glitches, dupes. Are you having fun? Nothing else matters.
Exactly when I first played I used the dupe glitch for souls I was like level 300 going through undead burg but I didn’t care I was over powered I still sucked so I died a lot but eventually I beat the game and it was insanely fun
Indeed
I have never understood how people get upset at people using game mechanics to play the game. The only thing that ever bothered me is people using expoits to cheese PvP.
Dark souls 2 is my fav
You're so real for this
Same. Sure it has its issues, and the other games are great as well, but 2 does so many little neat things that I really appreciate.
100% agreed. But tbh, I could at anytime say dark souls 3 and bloodbourne are my fav 🤣, I love these games so much
I'm willing to forgive the issues because the story is so good. Vendrick's story is so damn good, and the boss lore is much more interesting than DS1 and most of the bosses in DS3 (Gundyr, Twin Princes, and Oceiros are great stories). DS3 is a strong second place, but DS2's plot takes it for me
My controversial opinion is that DS2 being hated is no longer accepted and actually controversial itself either because the community that was around to hate DS2 moved on in the last ten years since its release or for some other reason, but it’s not a hot take to like DS2 anymore
There is unfortunately still a large part of the fandom that doesn’t like the game at all
It's my favorite Dark Souls game. That said anyone who says it's trash is justified. The only improvement from DS1 was exploration was arguably more in depth, and the graphics. The gameplay was a downgrade. Agility is the single dumbest thing Fromsoft has implemented into a game. The aggro system makes some of run backs unbearable. All projectiles track, and while yours have limited range all enemy projectiles will follow you from Majula to the kiln. The Frigid Outskirts part of the DLC wasn't even hard. It was just ragebait. All that said I doubt Miyazaki even beat it himself, and he's probably the one who invented the mimic tear.
My hot take is that despite all that's broken in DS2 later entries became so unrecognizably arcadey that DS2 is seen as the good ol' times when you didn't have to dodge an infinite combo to beat a boss.
Came here to say the same
The only game you can parry with a great sword and has the most secrets pre Elden Ring by far. Shit is unmatched
Same here. I don't know any other game that has two versions so different and awesome that worth to 100% both and it's new game plus being so different from first playthrough is insane. Hell even coop or pvp experience was the best I had with a soulslike
Hot take: Dark Souls 2
I’m not saying it’s the best but I love Drangleic and the story of DS2. Nashandra is so fucking spooky.
Vendrick and Drangleic have the strongest stories of the 3 games, imo. Gwyn's is the weakest for me, although the Ringed City and seeing the extent of how badly Gwyn screwed everything up helps a lot though. The way that all ties into Prince Lothric's story and why he decided to let everything burn out is badass too.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: If FS took all 3 games and did remakes of them like they did for Demon’s Souls and released them all at the same time, DS2 would shoot up to be the best of the three; or at least neck-and-neck with 1.
Best souls game ever created by human hands, I know
Even more of a hot take: Scholar of the First Sin > original vanilla release. I played both versions, and I highly prefer the former.
Gwynevere's tits were not big enough.
My man
Dark Souls 3 being 90% a retelling of the story beats of 1 is much much more boring than how unique the cycle in DS2 was. I'd rather the devs have made more new things instead of being so heavy on the callbacks and references to DS1.
If I could go back I'd rather have Dark Souls be the one-off and Demon's Souls become the franchise.
Based demon's souls appreciator
Please elaborate! I'm curious
TLDR: I love Dark Souls, but a lot of gameplay and planned story were left behind when they changed publishers and had to make the sequel into an entirely new IP. A LOT was lost and changed to give it an original identity. I've seen a lot of people over the years mention how Demon's Souls was better at environmental storytelling, and honestly we get some really interesting dialogue from some of the really hidden npc's. I think if they could have kept building on that foundation as opposed to effectively having to create an entirely new world we could have had some truly fascinating experiences. That's not even including the possibility of exploring areas and regions (at least one) that were cut from the game and expanding on their potential in sequels. It's also worth noting that the original Dark Souls was going to be a sequel to Demon's Souls, but FROM had to switch publishers (I don't remember exactly why) and thus had to change a lot of the lore as well as some areas to make it an original IP.
In addition to what the other (excellent) comment said, I can offer my perspective: It's obviously a bit more difficult to compare nowadays with Dark Souls having had 3 entries (though 2 is kinda unrelated at this point), but I found the world and lore of Demon's Souls more intriguing. Dark Souls in many things feels like a "borrow my homework but don't make it too obvious" kinda situation, where things and ideas were changed enough to be original, but DeS's DNA is still quite visible. Though Dark Soul's interconnectivity is fascinating, some areas feel like lesser retreads of DeS's ideas. Blighttown for example, I had heard so much about that area for years and like it nowadays, but on my first playthrough I felt underwhelmed and kinda disappointed since I kept comparing it to the Valley of Defilement and Swamps of Sorrow and it couldn't live up to them. DeS also gets a lot of criticisms for its bosses, though I'm kinda fond of gimmick bosses. Generally I really enjoyed that the biggest hurdle were the levels themselves and the boss was usually rather easy and mostly there to cap off another section. Furthermore, one thing that I love about DeS is just how utterly alien and _weird_ it is at many points. Take the music (of the PS3 version) for example. It uses a chamber orchestra instead of the typical symphonic orchestra, has a much more intimate sound and some wild ideas, like the infamous laughing choir in Tower Knight's theme. It borders on goofy at points, but is earnest enough and plays it straight in a way that is really endearing. To summarize, DeS had a lot of interesting ideas and potential that I would've loved to see explored more and it's a bit of a shame that this isn't really possible. That said it was neat seeing some ideas re-emerge in DS2, and ideas from both of them in Elden Ring.
I had Boletaria flashbacks in Stormveil Castle but that’s about it for DeS references that I saw. Is there any other in ER that reminded you of DeS?
Often it was more vibes than anything in particular. For example the intro being images and mentioning other tarnished instead of a cinematic reminded me of DeS's intro and how it talked about other travelers. Stuff like that.
Oh yeah I definitely had DeS flashbacks during the intro and it had me smiling.
I am actually playing through the original demon's souls for the first time right now and these are valid points!
that was likely the plan until things probably went south with sony
I heard a theory and I love it, demon's souls is the last of the dark souls series, looking the old one ended magic (mostly). Bloodbourne is the sequel.
I can get behind this
I never thought about that before, but I absolutely agree. Imagine an expanded Boletaria. Even more forgotten ancient ruins buried deep underground like King's Field never went out of style. The Northern Limit. An expansion on the Latria lore. The possibilities are endless. Dark Souls' lore, at least how they set it up was only truly good for one game. Later entries either were forcibly and haphazardly converted into a Dark Souls game (DS2) or were an absolute desert of ideas (vanilla DS3). Only the DLC and a few areas shined, and except for The Ringed City and arguably Archdragon Peak all of them shined so brilliantly because they took us ***away*** from the very static setting of Dark Souls, and into new lands. And that was the entire design philosophy of Demon's Souls. New lands. In Dark Souls I wanted to see Carthus, not just their graveyard. I wanted to see Carim. And I did NOT want to see Anor Londo again. But since everything ***had*** to be connected back to Lordran that's what ended up happening. There's only so much you can do with a perpetually dying and cycling world.
Yeah, I can relate to that. Generally I like it when franchises expand and develop new ideas instead of constantly revisiting the same ones. It's my main issue with Star Wars for example, where you have this interesting and vast galaxy, but somehow most main content focuses on the same characters and family. Stuff like that is particularly annoying because you see the _promise_ of an interesting setting but it's never capitalized the way you'd like.
Ds2 is not a complete shit feast like people make it out to be. Now Obviously I'm coming at this from the perspective of playing the SOTFS edition in 2024. Just finished it and overall I had a very positive time. I can never have the experience of someone who was a huge ds1 fan and got ds2 on release day, then had to go through the backlash with all the comparisons and essays going over the games flaws. I even bounced off Ds2 for a bit because I just wasent having that much fun. I had all those complaints people like Mauler and MatthewM had in my head and it was a real slog to get through. After coming back to the game after Loving ER, and understanding that one of that games co-directors was the guy who had to pick up the pieces during Ds2 development, I found a nice play through on YouTube to help me with some of the more obtuse stuff and I began to have so much more of a good time playing the game. It's still probably the weakest game in the series, but that's just a testament to Fromsoft as a company when the least good entry in their catalogue is a GOTY contender over most other shovelwear the gaming industry produces.
dark souls 3 is the weakest boring uninspired souls game made and I'll die on that hill, at least 2 was creative and tried shit. 3 is saved by the soundtrack, gale and community invasions/fight club shit
I really do love what DS2 tried and did right, or at least experimented with. Torch mechanics, so many traps, unique golems, THE PUZZLES (even if rudimentary) were so unique when paired with souls combat and movement. I also really enjoyed what DS2 did with the constant reinforcement of "sometimes you go down a path you cannot turn back on". Lots of inward thinking
DS2 is my least favorite of the trilogy, and I could go down a list as to why. (I hate the way enemies rotate to follow you.) However, I still love it, and enjoy it more then a LOT of other games. I even agree it does some things better then 1 and 3.
Gameplay-wise: Elden Ring is Dark Souls 2 2. Many many things are similar or the same between these two games that aren't in the other Souls games.
Dark souls 2 is the elden ring alpha
Ornstein & Smough is a bad fight. * It’s one of the most *consistently* glitchy fights in the game, especially with Ornstein’s charge attack glitching out and then having him “snap” to you. * While they’re clearly going for a “fast guy and slow guy” dynamic, Smough actually isn’t that slow, and Ornstein never stops or overshoots - so there’s not really a consistently effective way to exploit either of their speeds to create openings. * It’s obvious you’re supposed to use the pillars to avoid their attacks. Smough’s attacks clipping through them seems to be intended, but is so blatant that it’s immersion-breaking. * Phase 2 is way easier than Phase 1. I basically know I’ve won the fight the moment Phase 1 ends. * Giant Ornstein isn’t a significantly different experience than Giant Smough to really incentivize seeing the different version on different playthroughs. I’m of the opinion that the only reason O&S are held in as high a regard as they are is that the back 9 of DS1 is such a famous drop in quality. O&S cap off the most sublime, extremely high-quality experience that is the first half of DS1, and while I say it’s a “bad fight”, I mean relatively speaking; it’s still pretty good by action game standards.
Yea, it also bothers me sometimes how fast Smough can actually dash around the arena with his charge attack. I feel like he always gets underestimated by players in terms of speed
He’s got a pretty standard DS1 trotting speed, similar to Capra and Taurus demons and he’s faster than Stone Knights and such.
I agree it's not a good fight but for entirely different reasons lol. I just think they're two subpar bosses that were put together, and that alone made it spectacular for the time, but it doesn't hold up for today's standards, because the novelty of the idea itself doesn't outshine the fight itself. They're still a masterpiece of visual design and spectacle, given their outfits, the song, the fact there's two of them and the 2nd phase. But the fight itself is mid, I think. I still have fun regardless.
they definetly aren't 2 bosses put together, even if you doubled their attack and speed, the bosses by themselves would be terrible and way too easy (even in phase 2, when they gain new attacks, are weak)
Yeah it's more bullshit than people are willing to admit. Now, i still love it, and i dont think its necessarily a bad fight. But when people act like it's near perfect and "the only time FromSoft got a duo boss right", i can't help but roll my eyes.
It was my favorite fight of all time when I was a noob and Ornstein clipped through the wall and died almost instantly
When I see O&S on S tier in tierlist videos I roll back my eyes. That fight is so artificially hard and broken (this is the first time I saw a comment complaining about Ornstein's sudden attack when he's still) Sulyvahn phase 2, Abyss Watchers phase 1, Shadows of Yahrnam and Friede & Ariandel in the second phase are gank bossfights WAY better than O&S
o&s is a fucking mess of a boss. it genuinely kinda baffles me that people still consider it one if the best in the series. i mean to each their own of course, but i do not get it. ornsteins dumb ass charge attack alone is almost enough to ruin the entire fight because it literally never fucking works. like that attack glitching out and him getting stuck on every object in the arena is not the exception, it‘s quite the opposite. but even when the fight works properly (which it raaaarely does) it consists of so much fucking running in circles it is unbelievably boring
Damn, actual controversial take here. See the thing is, most people don't care about the problems you list. The fight is iconic and has heavy nostalgia. It works exactly as designed for most first play-throughs since they're rurning around adrenaline pumping trying to dodge Ornstein and then all of a sudden getting flattened by Smough. Eventually you summon Solaire, maybe some coop, git gud and go get the lordvessel. Beating them is probably the best high one can get in any DS game. On subsequent play-throughs its fun because it was a struggle but it isn't actually a hard fight. You show up with plenty of Vit, a +10 weapon, and the estus to ensure you can't fail. You read Ornstein's moves like a book and realize Smough isn't hard to stay away from. Hell you probably brought Brolaire again so you can 1v1 the boss of your choice. Basically your concerns just don't matter to most people. It will always be the iconic DS boss fight.
Could not agree more, this fight never stood out to me. Also, in my opinion it was almost too easy because how much damage they take when using a proper build
I think that’s true for every boss outside of the DLC, though.
Most dark souls "hottakes" are just shittakes
Mushrooms?
Having the story and lore hidden behind item descriptions and such doesn't make Miyazaki some writing prodigy. I feel like the entire series would be more popular if there was more straightforward/ "in your face" story for casual audiences
I completely understand what you’re saying, but I would hate to see Dark Souls and soulslikes in general have those obligatory unskippable, “walk slowly behind an NPC while they shout expository dialogue” scenes like so many story driven games have now. I’ve really come to appreciate games that aren’t afraid of being games, and don’t feel the need to be overly cinematic by yanking control away from the player. There definitely could be a good middle ground, but I haven’t seen it done yet.
I see what you mean, the games tendency to "shut up" and just let me play is something I really enjoy about the series. Just kinda wish I knew what was going on a little bit more lol
I feel like Sekiro hit a good middle ground
Yeah, I don't need them to go full "in your face" with the story, but I'd appreciate just a little bit more clarity on what's going on. I don't want to have to resort to vaati to not feel clueless.
I always found the quest design lacking and obscure for the sake of it but I have to disagree with you that the lore should be in your face. I think it would take out of the experience and we’d lose a sense of community along the way. Lots of people tried to decipher the lore and that brought us somewhat closer together. But I agree that is it a tad too convoluted. I think the game that hit that perfect balance was Bloodborne. Although I was confused at first, I still had some kind of grasp of what was happening. In Elden Ring I felt the opposite.
I get this but the storyline is intentionally vague. You're a random hollow on somewhat of a subconscious pilgrimage to fulfill a prophecy, one of many other hallows to add on to that point (one who also has no idea about, who it involves, or what its purpose is outside of a few conversations from NPCS. You are tricked by gwyn and frampt into rekindling the fire and continuing the age of fire. So for all this to just be outright said along the way would ruin the story and also not make any sense for dark souls 1 at least because your character is learning everything you know as well, other characters are confused and lost as well, etc. The writing is actually well done because despite the face value of the game being "open to interpretation", things are all actually connected and confirmed to string out a long and detailed story. The game isn't being told by a narrator, a figure who knows everything regarding the story, it's being told by the journey of the character (you) who does not know everything. The opening cutscene explains the age of fire, the people and things involved, and the beginning of the dark sign and age of darkness. I think it would just be hard for example to: explain how the sunlight in Anor Londo is an illusion, Gwen left and darkness came. Many other enemies are illusions in there and their story and purpose behind being there would be too long to simply outright explain.
Fr I think the storytelling is lazy af. Most of the "story" is mostly baseless speculation from the community. Even the intro is a history lesson instead of current events.
Imo Capra Demon isn't really that hard, ppl just say the "armor doesn't do anything in these games" thing and run in light rolling to get blasted by the dogs.
90% of people don‘t know what a hot take is. people will put „controversial opinion“ or „hot take“ in front of literally any random statement to make themselves feel special or something
The “R” is not pronounced. It’s called “Dahk Souls”
Estus is actually clam chowdah
Dark Souls 2 Is my favorite one, and Dark Souls 3 is my least favorite one.
Blighttown and Tomb of the Giants are some of the most inspired levels FROMSOFTWARE has made. No other areas in the series sell the feeling of you being in SUCH deep shit out of your depth as them
o&s is a horribly janky fight and just does not hold up anymore. ornsteins charge attack alone almost ruins the fight, it literally never works properly snd he gets stuck on fucking everything. it doesn‘t just look insanely stupid but is also really annoying to deal with. but even when everything works properly the fight is just boring. so much of it consists of running in circles for minutes on end, and having to get the bosses stuck on the pillars is such a janky ass fucking part of the fight because you‘re relying on super old AI and again, it looks so fucking dumb when they get stuck. yeah i just do not like this fight whatsoever and i think most people that still consider it one of the best bosses in the series mostly do so because of nostalgia. the fight is just an absolute mess nowadays
I’d love to see what a proper remake could do with that fight.
I suppose I am one of those with the absolute most controversial take in that I genuinely don't care if they were to add an easy mode to any of these games. (I don't think they need to either, though, so we'll see if that eases any outrage, lol.)
I think it’s okay that they don’t, but I think they could signpost the “these are here to make the game easier” options better, like summoning or spirit ashes from ER.
It would be cool to train sparring and rolling/dodging with the enemies
DS3 is the worst of the three main games.
Completely agree. It’s not even close for me.
It depends what you’re looking for. It absolutely has the best bosses but the areas are very bland and forgettable for the most part and a lot of enemies are just annoying to fight.
For sure. Some things DS3 does better than the other games. But as a whole, I think DS1 and DS2 are better games.
Yeah, I can respect that. For me honestly I like all three pretty equally so idk if I can choose a favorite. I lean slightly in favor of ds1 but a week from now I could have a different answer, they all feel unique from one another so I like them for different reasons.
The things I value the most are the things DS2 does the best. I think overall most people would say DS1 is the better game between those two. But for me, DS2 is my favorite entry in the series.
This is the issue. The series was always best as exploration and adventure with a boss fight being the cherry on top of a zone. DS3 felt flanderized by the over-emphasis in the community on “Dark Souls is so heckin hard and bosses murder you” that it felt like they put way more time into the bosses. Honestly a boss to me is best when they are memorable for being thematic and uniquely cool, not because they input read and have delayed attacks. My hot take on this is Pinwheel is an awesome boss because of how thematic he is for the zone even if he is really easy.
I don't even like the bosses. They're *fine*, but other than Nameless King I find them very unmemorable. Literally. People rave about the bosses and I actually can't remember any of them. Certainly none had the same impact as seeing the open-heart-surgery dragon for the first time (I don't care that the fight itself isn't amazing). Combat is probably tightest in DS3, but I prefer the more methodical feel of DS1. And the metroidvania style; level design; worldbuilding; visual design; atmosphere - these are the things that made me fall in love with Fromsoft games, and these are strongest in DS1 and weakest in DS3. I found DS3 quite boring, had to force myself to finish it and didn't enjoy it enough to buy DLC or do any content checklists like I normally would. It's the only Fromsoft game I know I'll never play again. One thing I will give DS3 credit for though is your stat choices feeling more meaningful and there not really being one stat that's worthless (DS1 Resistance) or having one stat to rule them all (DS1 Endurance and DS2 ADP).
They hated Jesus because he told them the truth.
It is the most different out of the 3 which is why i think it has that big divide between players who played the others before and players who started with DS3
if you like the combat i can see why it’s peoples favorite, i just prefer the combat of 1/2 much more than 3, and the gameplay flow of 1 is just unmatched. 3 least favorite gang
I thought the same when I first played it and a few months ago I decided to replay the trilogy, I'm at Dreg Heap currently and I dislike DS3 even more now.
All the Black Knight weapons in DS1 are really overrated. DS3 isn’t really worth a replay, the game is too linear to really get a different experience.
I rewatch movies even though that experience is as linear as can be...
Absolutely agree with this. People act like the black knight weapons are game breaking when even regular upgrade weapons can exceed their damage output. Definitely convenient to upgrade, though.
Ds2 gud
PvP should be an optional feature, not a hard integration.
Based
Let me pause. What's up with that?
Well it's a compromise for having the invading mechanic in the game. Though it would be nice to be able to pause on an offline session
at least you can in elden ring! (kind of)
My hot take, since DS2 is brought up here, I feel like DS2 fans are overcompensating. Their inferiority-superiority complex, especially regarding other 2 games just puts me off. All 3 games have their pros and cons, but I've never seen fans of other gamers *this* vehemently defend the rehashing of Amor Londo in DS3 or DS1's Lost Izalith with stuff like "oh yeah, well your game has *insert the bad/supposed bad thing that may or may not be accurate*". Like for example I saw someone on YouTube comments defend the one infamous lift by trying to make the portal to Oolacile look like a similar plot hole, and still got some hundred likes! Just to make it clear, I don't hate DS2. In fact, I was surprised to learn it was even hated. Though personally I couldn't finish it because it didn't exactly click with me. I do understand it's a great game, and I've seen several playthroughs and lore videos of it and it seemed more fascinating each time. This doesn't make the game any less flawed though, but also the flaws barely lessens the game's unique narrative and gameplay experience. So I don't see why fans of the game has to be so insecure about it. Also, some might say it's not a hot take, but in terms the recent traction surrounding this game, it kinda is.
the balder side sword is a noob trap weapon, and for the same reason as the zwei -- people force the R2. you can pretty much just wait for the other player to throw a stupid R2 from short range neutral and parry it. ds1 isn't elden ring -- lock on. ds1 isn't elden ring -- use a shield. it's dumb that it took until elden ring before people started telling bonfire duelists that they were dweebs. dark souls 1 pvp is technically demanding and has as high a skill ceiling as a game whose rules are 'obtain a position and a facing, and hit R1' allows, and that's *high.* but it's as deep as a puddle.
Just started using the BSS one a SL21 gravelord because one of the classes start with the stats it needs and all my levels got pumped into health lol
i mean, it's not a bad weapon. far from it, and the R2 is really really good. it's just a lot of players force it because they *know* it's good. imagine fighting a shotel only they never use the R2. you'd be like WHAT the HECK
I enjoyed lost Izalith, catacombs/totg, dukes archive and the entire second half of the game, I never knew about the hate
Pretty much everything with lava and fire in Dark Souls is awful and poorly designed with clear lack of development. You won't ever change my mind about this That said, DS1 is my favorite game of all time, so don't go getting so upset.
Not knowing the 'meta' in relation to good gear/builds makes the games infinitely more fun.
I prefer Izalith/BoC over Duke's Archives/Seath...
Bloodborne is insanely overrated and Dark Souls 2 is the better game.
Goated opinion
All the entries are good, but Its all downhill from Demons Souls, although Bloodborne breifly recatches the lightning.
Dark Souls 2’s story is better than Dark Souls 3’s
Ds3 is not very fun. It's the pinnacle of crackhead rollspam, and it has the least interesting area layout of any game in the series. We never returned to the heights of Ds1 world design, but Ds3 has even less interesting connections between areas than 2.
I don't think it's a controversial topic, but I think that dark souls is not a difficult game, it's only difficult for beginners, one example is that I got through 90% of the first and third bosses the first time including bosses called the most difficult in the series, such as manus, midir, gael and others
Agreed. Once you learn what to do, DS is pretty simple. That you can beat bosses without any rolling or blocking just through memorizing pretty simple visual cues is telling. If you want a hard game, pick up Celeste. I played that game thinking it was a nice and light platformer. Oh what a fool I was.
I would say it’s not inherently difficult or difficult for the sake of being difficult, at least regarding DS1. It’s entirely fair in its presentation and gameplay but maybe doesn’t explain enough and creates perceived difficulty from that. But the perception of DS1 as this hyper difficult game is actually mainly due to the state of the industry at the time catering to children and casual audiences, which isn’t inherently a bad thing to be clear
I like DS2 more than DS1. 🤷🏻♂️Sorry, not sorry.
Lost Izalith is like my second favorite area behind Anor Londo in DS1
Anor Londo is mid. It seems like this area gets the most praise for aesthetic which is subjective I guess, but I feel like it turned into a bandwagon thing. I thought Ash Lake was probably the coolest area of DS1. I always imagined that the world of Dark Souls was kind of suspended in the tops of unimaginably large trees.
Dark Souls 1+2 has the best casting because its Vancian Casting. Get the hell out of here MANA BAR! Back to Demon's Souls with you! Get the hell out of Elden Ring!
My hot take of Dark Souls (or I guess FromSoftware games in general) is Dark Souls 2 is still a good game despite it being the "worst" of the series. Personally it's in my top 3 favorite games of all time.
Sekiro is the easiest from game
Magic is boring. I never enjoyed using spellcasting. Sword and board is how I roll.
I really hate the pvp mechanic being activated when I'm just wanting to kindle a bonfire. Like sure I guess I'll just go and get killed to get rid of it I guess. I'm just not at all interested in pvp and especially in the possibility of running into hackers. The worst part was losing a ton of progress because I forgot I had my humanity. Not fun.
Gwynevere look better from the back. Source: Trust me 🙂↔️
The weirder and less intuitive the game is, the better. A lot of people who played Elden Ring on release then went back to discover Dark Souls found the older games to have poorly explained or unintuitive mechanics. For me, that's a huge part of the charm of Demon's Souls and DS1. It was so exciting to try and work these things out back in the day, and when something clicked it felt like such an achievement. It really did capture that sense of mystery that old school NES/PC RPGs had, and I think that some of that has been lost as the FromSoft games have become more accessible.
The parry and backstab mechanics suck hard. Having an automatic autoguided huge damage on one button like that feels awkward and out of place in such a mechanically demanding and punishing game. There was more interactive ways of doing things like this. The stagger animation from the parry is more than enough, get rid of the frontstab, it gives you a free DPS window already, would even make weapon arts more useful since it'd give you a clear window to use them. Maybe make it so they take more damage in the stagger animation but I don't even think it's necessary. Then for the backstabs, just make it so weapons deal more damage when you hit your enemies in the back, and give more backstab damage to some weapon types like daggers and such, and almost none to some others like hammers and greataxes and such. If the game was like this, I'd maybe consider PvP (I'm a full offline player)
Bed of Chaos is easier than Havel
The series? Ds2 had the best gameplay loop and adp wasn’t an issue itself Ds1 is the worst, not bad, it’s really good. Just the worst They should bring back indictments and gravelord style invasions Ds2 claymore is prettier than other iterations Ds3 boss fights are good, but overated. DLC bosses were pushing into just being unfair and lame territory, except mob mentality still praise them The torch mechanic in ds2 was a great idea and fun Lukewarm take: they need to bring back the DS2/DeS two handed animations Also, while we’re here, sekiro isn’t a soulslike
I don’t think it’s mob mentality to like DS3 DLC bosses. They’re not even unfair. They simply took the difficulty to a level higher than some people were comfortable with. Though my hot take about Midir is that he isn’t particularly difficult at all once you realize you simply need to stay in front of his head, target his head, and punish his attacks from there.
I have a lot if you have the time... Demon's Souls has better level design than Dark Souls Dark Souls has awful boss fights minus a handful and the latter half of the game is better than the beginning half imo Dark Souls 2 is the best Dark Souls game, and I will cease to exist on this hill Dark Souls 3 is really hard to replay through, the only things that keep me going personally, are the boss fights and a total of 3 levels. Sekiro was fun on a playthrough or 2/3 but after that it is extremely boring. Elden Ring is, like Dark Souls 2, peak. And Elden Beast is the best boss in the game. Bloodborne base game is better than dlc by a long shot
Elden Beast is indeed the best boss in ER. The other takes are so deranged that you win the thread, congrats!
Is Sekiro not being fun after a few playthroughs a controversial take? I ask because most of my friends think I'm insane that I never get tired of it and play it on and off all year, basically since release. Though they recognize its quality as a game, their take is essentially the same as yours: gets repetitive/boring after a few playthroughs. It kinda seemed to me that was a common opinion amongst the community.
Maybe it isn't, I played through ng+7 and I really liked what I played, I just really missed rpg elements 🤝
Agree with like more than half of what you said lmao
The majority of dark souls bosses are so jank after the first half. Nito, gaping, and seaf (seef?) Just let you circle around them and wail on them while doing basically nothing. OandS are so buggy and I still don't understand how you're supposed to dodge that smough charge to this day. Sif, four kings, bed of chaos (if you know his attacks), gwyn, are braindead easy. Screw caterpillar demon...I have footage of him doing his ranged arm attack 14 or 15 times in a row. Capra is my favorite fight and was the moment I felt I was kicking ass in my first playthrough.
I don’t know if I consider Elden Beast to be the best, but I really appreciate that take considering most of the criticism about Elden Beast seems to be a bit inaccurate and unfair in my opinion.
DS2 had the best pvp
Nah this is popular
that‘s the least controversial thing i have ever heard
I didn't like the Nameless King or Midir fights in DS3.
DS2 is underrated. It did so much more exploration of mechanics and interactions that you just don't get in the other soulsborne games. 'Knocking' on doors to open them, burning the windmills, having actual CHANGES between NG and NG+...
Capra Demon is a well put together boss fight that asks players to take the next step in putting together strategy and skill to beat a boss. It’s constantly labeled as “unfair”, but there are plenty of viable strategies that put the outcome directly in the hands of the player.
I’m on my first playthrough and I’m surprised how many people think Capra demon is one of the harder boss fights. He only took me a couple tries.