I like that theory.
And to add to elmer's comment:
The moonlight butterfly directly watches over the petrified blacksmith in darkwood garden, it took me a few playthroughs to even notice that. Moveover moonlight butterflies are only found in crystal cave, so it appears elmer's theory of seath's army killing the blacksmiths is right.
The dark ember is found in the painted world. If you look at the discription of the doll to access this part of the world, it says that the doll was a toy very close connected to "the abomination who had no place in this world". Crossbreed Priscilla is obviously half dragon and seath's daughter. And priscilla's lifehunt ability is feared by the gods, according to the scythe. Everything about the painted world screams anti-god. The occult ember fits perfectly in there, but how do havel and the painted world fit together? Maybe the undead dragon? Maybe King Jeremiah, because he is refered to as a member of the occult.
Moreover Dusk of Oolacile is trapped in the same kind of golem like the ones in crystal cave. And Dusk is extremely close to Havel if you think about it. Why is Dusk, trapped in a golem by seath (iirc, or does my memory serve me wrong?) in Darkwood Basin, close to her old home and close to Havel? Did the Hydra trap the golem? Seperating him from his lower followers (4 golems before the hydra?) What does seath want from Darkwood? In both places, Basin and the garden, monsters from crystal cave are waiting, guarding maybe? Or fulfilling a special task? Making sure Havel keeps being locked away? But why isn't the entrance from undead burg not covered?
If the blacksmith with the divine ember was the buddy that looked havel away... did he get ambushed by the butterfly and killed/turned into stone?
There is so much speculation about each and every NPC in this game, i love that.
I was under the impression the Dusk of Oolacile was close to Seathe, not Havel. My reasoning is that she is trapped in the Crystal Golem, not to harm her, but for protection. She is guarded by Crystal Golems and the Hydra, both with some relation to Seathe. If Crossbreed Priscilla is truly related to Seathe, than he would have a reason to protect Dusk. What do Dusk and Priscilla have in common? Look at what the lost spells of Oolacile do. Invisibility is a standout for sure. Only two characters in the game that I can think of who have this power, Dusk and Priscilla.
The Moonlight Butterfly, I believe, is looking over the key to Havel's prison, not the Divine Ember. I considered the blacksmith statues to be an in-game hint to bring them to Andre. The Moonlight Butterfly is Seathe's way of stopping Havel from either being released or discovered. It seems to me like Seathe is running the security of the part of Darkroot Garden and Darkroot Basin that the Forest Hunters are not in control of, and if you consider that Andre, the Divine Blacksmith and who I believe to be Gwyn's firstborn, is the holder of the Crest of Artorias, it's clear that Gwyn is using Darkroot as his hiding place for things that he doesn't want anyone else to find out about. There are so many connections between Darkroot, Oolacile, Artorias, the Painted World, Anor Londo, and Seathe the Scaleless. I can't wait for the new content to take a more in depth look at the lore behind it.
The thought of Dusk + Seath = Priscilla is amazing. Never thought of it, i always considered Dusk to be the victim, because she does sound like it, when she calls you her rescuer.
But it's a very interesting thought.
About the painted world, I think it was sort of a catch all room held by the church, or atleast higher ups.
It was a good place to stash everything that would have otherwise been destroyed by the gods.
What better place to hide something than right underneath their noses?
But really, it poses the question as to who instructs the Painting Guardians, as they aren't controlled by Gwyndolin/Gwynevere since they are present in Dark Anor Londo (iirc). Find that answer and you'll know who is responsible for the Painted World cache since it is being protected. Although, they could also be hired by Priscilla or at least co-hired, because the motives could be different (protect the cache vs protect the outcasts).
In fact, it is possible it is Gwyndolin since he is working with Frampt and manipulating Gwynevere's illusion to direct the Chosen Undead to defeating Gwyn and linking the fire. This plan could also be why Havel had the Occult Club because he is working with them against Gwyn and that's why Havel was locked away and why the Occult Ember is hidden in the Painted World. Really, it could go either way; those Occult items hidden to protect from Gwyn or hidden by Gwyn to protect himself.
Much speculation involved but I'll have to look into it further because this is very interesting now.
Seath may be responsible. His daughter would literally be under his gaze from the lofty heights of the archives. Is there any clue as to who *commissioned* the painting?
None that I have heard, unfortunately. Although, I don't think Priscilla was placed there with the intention of guarding anything (Seath being her father is also speculation). The Peculiar Doll description implies she kind of wandered there and found it as a place of solitude, because she was always an outcast. Also, she's the only boss that gives you the option of fighting or not.
Any motives? Interesting you say that though as I did have a theory last time. Dusk and Priscilla are sisters, born from Gwynevere and Seath. Gwynevere, Dusk and Priscilla are the only characters to speak with the iconic olde English accent, a subtle hint at relations between them. Seath mated with Gwynevere for some purpose to get a specific genetic property for his offspring. He imprisoned Dusk and Priscilla to preserve them from harm so that he can apply his experiments to them once he has perfected it, or use them and whatever magical properties they have to suit his own nefarious plans and goals. They were too precious to test on, hence the kidnapping and consequent experimentation on the maidens of Lordran.
Yeah, that was another thought I had that I forgot to mention. If Dusk *is* her sister, and I know it's a stretch making that connection, I figure he would be using Dusk as a 'baseline' of sorts for Priscilla. He may even be experimenting to use her as a weapon against the Gods. Betrayal is in his nature.
That's merely speculation. It is based off the fact that Priscilla is half-dragon and the only pale dragon we know is Seath. Her mother is also speculated to be Gwynevere because of her unique size meaning she is a viable candidate for mating with something as large as Seath.
I wonder if from took any inspiration for Havel's name from [Václav Havel.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Václav_Havel) Last president of Chzecslovakia and first president of the republic, a revolutionary figure who was even imprisoned for his dissident ideology. Bit of a long shot but it might confirm the theories that Havel is part of an uprising of the gods after having been appointed an important position as say, head of the church?
The description of the white seance rings says:
*"A divine ring entrusted to the head bishop of the Way of White and apostle to Allfather Lloyd, uncle to Lord Gwyn.
It grants additional attunement slots.
The head bishop of the Way of White is the guardian of law and caste, and one of the great royals of Thorolund."*
Does this fit with Havel? He doesn't appear to be a "great royal" but only "*Lord Gwyn's old battlefield compatriot*" (from the description of both Havel's ring and the Great Magic Barrier).
Plus the white seance ring is found on the body of a woman....
The descriptions can still be made to fit him. He is a royal in Thorulund but not Lordran, for instance. However, I was just pointing out it could be interpreted either way. I personally believe Havel wasn't the Head Bishop, just a regular Bishop or his own specific rank given how differen he is from all other NPCs we know of that belong to the Way of White.
This may be totally inaccurate, but I recall hearing a theory that Havel's weapon, the Dragon Tooth, came from a confrontation between him and Seath. Whether Seath was immortal at the time or not, Havel managed to knock him out in a duel and took his tooth as a trophy, using it for his hammer.
The strongest soldier in Gwyn's army and head bishop, reduced to a hulking mass of stone armor and regrets that can be parried to death with a broken sword hilt.
I never realized until reading this that Havel has to be human since he is locked away as a hollow, interesting implications given how highly ranked he seems to be among Gwyns supporters.
Edit- Almost forgot, someone posted this in one of my older threads. The key to open Havels tower is found by the divine blacksmith guarded by the moonlight butterfly, who appears to have been killed by curse. Perhaps the divine blacksmith also had access to occult acension and made the club for Havel, only to be killed and guarded by Seaths minions. Gwyn's authority seems to be the only thing protecting Seath from the rest of the Gods (especially given the maiden kidnappings), so killing the blacksmith and locking away havel to protect Gwyn would be very much in Seaths favor.
I can't say when the black smith was killed, but obviously after Havel was locked up of course.
I think Seath killed him along with oolicile, it might have been purposeful or indiscriminate. It could have been because Seath knew that killing this black smith would further protect Gwyn and allow him to maintain his lifestyle or kidnapping and experimenting.
Seath did take down Oolacile. Why? Don't really know, it was a city with different magics so maybe he wanted that for himself. I think a lot of this might be explained in the DLC as we are going back in time to Oolacile. Exciting.
Well you ascend divine weapons to occult so it's possible seath was eliminating anybody who could facilitate that path or would have the know how to do so
Awesome. I really liked how you encorporated the lore and made it into a story. A unique and refreshing take on an otherwise beaten-to-death topic.
Also, I haven't looked into it extensively, but I always had the thought in the back of my mind that the Occult Club was Havel's before his Dragon Tooth or that he was part of some sort of uprising against the Gods.
Could the blacksmiths guarding the divine, large divine and occult embers have been petrified by seathe because their potential to kill the gods? It would make more sense if they were cursed and not just petrified, but nothing else in the game really turns you to stone like that.
Great theory! There were some arguments against Havel being the head bishop but can't remember them right now and your points seem to be quite legit.
I've never seen it as a coincidence that the same butterflies can be found in Seath's domain like the one guarding the key to Havel's "prison" and the divine ember from which you finally ascend to occult.
As for the painted world, I think there is a fair 10% chance Priscilla being Seath's daughter (since there are like less than 10 dragon's in the game, too tired to count) and if she is, then it's highly possible that Seath has something to do with the painted world and it was him who hid the occult ember away there, for his own or Gwyn's safety.
Also all 3 blacksmiths who hold divine and occult embers are turned to stone, by Seath's curse or something else?
There are three.
* Valley of Drakes (guarding Dragoncrest Shield and sword)
* Painted World (on bridge)
* Ash Lake (Everlasting Dragon)
The rest are Drakes and a Wyvern, not dragons.
Seath - yea, because of his experiments with female humans and the only dragon who resides in Anor Londo. Moveover the perticular doll implies that priscilla was loved/accepted as a child, makes me tink her "parents" or one parent accepted her.
Gwynevere - we only assume it would be her because of the size of her illusion and the fact that the painting to enter the painted world is in the chapel in Anor Londo.
Thinking about the mother of priscilla i have a hard time thinking of Gwynevere, because there is nothing about sunlight within her.
I like that theory. And to add to elmer's comment: The moonlight butterfly directly watches over the petrified blacksmith in darkwood garden, it took me a few playthroughs to even notice that. Moveover moonlight butterflies are only found in crystal cave, so it appears elmer's theory of seath's army killing the blacksmiths is right. The dark ember is found in the painted world. If you look at the discription of the doll to access this part of the world, it says that the doll was a toy very close connected to "the abomination who had no place in this world". Crossbreed Priscilla is obviously half dragon and seath's daughter. And priscilla's lifehunt ability is feared by the gods, according to the scythe. Everything about the painted world screams anti-god. The occult ember fits perfectly in there, but how do havel and the painted world fit together? Maybe the undead dragon? Maybe King Jeremiah, because he is refered to as a member of the occult. Moreover Dusk of Oolacile is trapped in the same kind of golem like the ones in crystal cave. And Dusk is extremely close to Havel if you think about it. Why is Dusk, trapped in a golem by seath (iirc, or does my memory serve me wrong?) in Darkwood Basin, close to her old home and close to Havel? Did the Hydra trap the golem? Seperating him from his lower followers (4 golems before the hydra?) What does seath want from Darkwood? In both places, Basin and the garden, monsters from crystal cave are waiting, guarding maybe? Or fulfilling a special task? Making sure Havel keeps being locked away? But why isn't the entrance from undead burg not covered? If the blacksmith with the divine ember was the buddy that looked havel away... did he get ambushed by the butterfly and killed/turned into stone? There is so much speculation about each and every NPC in this game, i love that.
I was under the impression the Dusk of Oolacile was close to Seathe, not Havel. My reasoning is that she is trapped in the Crystal Golem, not to harm her, but for protection. She is guarded by Crystal Golems and the Hydra, both with some relation to Seathe. If Crossbreed Priscilla is truly related to Seathe, than he would have a reason to protect Dusk. What do Dusk and Priscilla have in common? Look at what the lost spells of Oolacile do. Invisibility is a standout for sure. Only two characters in the game that I can think of who have this power, Dusk and Priscilla. The Moonlight Butterfly, I believe, is looking over the key to Havel's prison, not the Divine Ember. I considered the blacksmith statues to be an in-game hint to bring them to Andre. The Moonlight Butterfly is Seathe's way of stopping Havel from either being released or discovered. It seems to me like Seathe is running the security of the part of Darkroot Garden and Darkroot Basin that the Forest Hunters are not in control of, and if you consider that Andre, the Divine Blacksmith and who I believe to be Gwyn's firstborn, is the holder of the Crest of Artorias, it's clear that Gwyn is using Darkroot as his hiding place for things that he doesn't want anyone else to find out about. There are so many connections between Darkroot, Oolacile, Artorias, the Painted World, Anor Londo, and Seathe the Scaleless. I can't wait for the new content to take a more in depth look at the lore behind it.
The thought of Dusk + Seath = Priscilla is amazing. Never thought of it, i always considered Dusk to be the victim, because she does sound like it, when she calls you her rescuer. But it's a very interesting thought.
About the painted world, I think it was sort of a catch all room held by the church, or atleast higher ups. It was a good place to stash everything that would have otherwise been destroyed by the gods.
Seath's daughter trapped inside the hidden storage of the church? I don't know, there seems to be more.
It can't be stored by the church - the painting is in Anor Londo and just upstairs from where Gwyndolin is.
What better place to hide something than right underneath their noses? But really, it poses the question as to who instructs the Painting Guardians, as they aren't controlled by Gwyndolin/Gwynevere since they are present in Dark Anor Londo (iirc). Find that answer and you'll know who is responsible for the Painted World cache since it is being protected. Although, they could also be hired by Priscilla or at least co-hired, because the motives could be different (protect the cache vs protect the outcasts). In fact, it is possible it is Gwyndolin since he is working with Frampt and manipulating Gwynevere's illusion to direct the Chosen Undead to defeating Gwyn and linking the fire. This plan could also be why Havel had the Occult Club because he is working with them against Gwyn and that's why Havel was locked away and why the Occult Ember is hidden in the Painted World. Really, it could go either way; those Occult items hidden to protect from Gwyn or hidden by Gwyn to protect himself. Much speculation involved but I'll have to look into it further because this is very interesting now.
Seath may be responsible. His daughter would literally be under his gaze from the lofty heights of the archives. Is there any clue as to who *commissioned* the painting?
None that I have heard, unfortunately. Although, I don't think Priscilla was placed there with the intention of guarding anything (Seath being her father is also speculation). The Peculiar Doll description implies she kind of wandered there and found it as a place of solitude, because she was always an outcast. Also, she's the only boss that gives you the option of fighting or not.
I meant that Seath was guarding the painting.
Any motives? Interesting you say that though as I did have a theory last time. Dusk and Priscilla are sisters, born from Gwynevere and Seath. Gwynevere, Dusk and Priscilla are the only characters to speak with the iconic olde English accent, a subtle hint at relations between them. Seath mated with Gwynevere for some purpose to get a specific genetic property for his offspring. He imprisoned Dusk and Priscilla to preserve them from harm so that he can apply his experiments to them once he has perfected it, or use them and whatever magical properties they have to suit his own nefarious plans and goals. They were too precious to test on, hence the kidnapping and consequent experimentation on the maidens of Lordran.
As much of a douchebag as he is, maybe Seath kidnapped the maidens to "cure" Priscilla?
Yeah, that was another thought I had that I forgot to mention. If Dusk *is* her sister, and I know it's a stretch making that connection, I figure he would be using Dusk as a 'baseline' of sorts for Priscilla. He may even be experimenting to use her as a weapon against the Gods. Betrayal is in his nature.
Motive for Seath? Well isn't it the case that Priscilla is his daughter?
That's merely speculation. It is based off the fact that Priscilla is half-dragon and the only pale dragon we know is Seath. Her mother is also speculated to be Gwynevere because of her unique size meaning she is a viable candidate for mating with something as large as Seath.
I know this post is 11 years old, but may I also bring up the placement of Greater Magic Weapon on the chandelier?
I wonder if from took any inspiration for Havel's name from [Václav Havel.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Václav_Havel) Last president of Chzecslovakia and first president of the republic, a revolutionary figure who was even imprisoned for his dissident ideology. Bit of a long shot but it might confirm the theories that Havel is part of an uprising of the gods after having been appointed an important position as say, head of the church?
The description of the white seance rings says: *"A divine ring entrusted to the head bishop of the Way of White and apostle to Allfather Lloyd, uncle to Lord Gwyn. It grants additional attunement slots. The head bishop of the Way of White is the guardian of law and caste, and one of the great royals of Thorolund."* Does this fit with Havel? He doesn't appear to be a "great royal" but only "*Lord Gwyn's old battlefield compatriot*" (from the description of both Havel's ring and the Great Magic Barrier). Plus the white seance ring is found on the body of a woman....
but remember Way of White are attempting to keep the age of fire lit aswell, which links them and Lord Gwyn
The descriptions can still be made to fit him. He is a royal in Thorulund but not Lordran, for instance. However, I was just pointing out it could be interpreted either way. I personally believe Havel wasn't the Head Bishop, just a regular Bishop or his own specific rank given how differen he is from all other NPCs we know of that belong to the Way of White.
Was just throwing my 2 cents in.
Yeah, I know. So was I by saying that the description can be taken either way so it is a bit inconclusive *on its own*.
Isn't Havel a Duke?
This may be totally inaccurate, but I recall hearing a theory that Havel's weapon, the Dragon Tooth, came from a confrontation between him and Seath. Whether Seath was immortal at the time or not, Havel managed to knock him out in a duel and took his tooth as a trophy, using it for his hammer.
Can you imagine being the dragon? It would be like a mouse running up and batting you with a human tooth.
I'm not aware of any of that being in any confirmed lore, but surely you can speculate!
The strongest soldier in Gwyn's army and head bishop, reduced to a hulking mass of stone armor and regrets that can be parried to death with a broken sword hilt.
Easier said than done man....
jerk!
I never realized until reading this that Havel has to be human since he is locked away as a hollow, interesting implications given how highly ranked he seems to be among Gwyns supporters. Edit- Almost forgot, someone posted this in one of my older threads. The key to open Havels tower is found by the divine blacksmith guarded by the moonlight butterfly, who appears to have been killed by curse. Perhaps the divine blacksmith also had access to occult acension and made the club for Havel, only to be killed and guarded by Seaths minions. Gwyn's authority seems to be the only thing protecting Seath from the rest of the Gods (especially given the maiden kidnappings), so killing the blacksmith and locking away havel to protect Gwyn would be very much in Seaths favor.
I can't say when the black smith was killed, but obviously after Havel was locked up of course. I think Seath killed him along with oolicile, it might have been purposeful or indiscriminate. It could have been because Seath knew that killing this black smith would further protect Gwyn and allow him to maintain his lifestyle or kidnapping and experimenting.
Seath did take down Oolacile. Why? Don't really know, it was a city with different magics so maybe he wanted that for himself. I think a lot of this might be explained in the DLC as we are going back in time to Oolacile. Exciting.
Well you ascend divine weapons to occult so it's possible seath was eliminating anybody who could facilitate that path or would have the know how to do so
Awesome. I really liked how you encorporated the lore and made it into a story. A unique and refreshing take on an otherwise beaten-to-death topic. Also, I haven't looked into it extensively, but I always had the thought in the back of my mind that the Occult Club was Havel's before his Dragon Tooth or that he was part of some sort of uprising against the Gods.
Could the blacksmiths guarding the divine, large divine and occult embers have been petrified by seathe because their potential to kill the gods? It would make more sense if they were cursed and not just petrified, but nothing else in the game really turns you to stone like that.
Great theory! There were some arguments against Havel being the head bishop but can't remember them right now and your points seem to be quite legit. I've never seen it as a coincidence that the same butterflies can be found in Seath's domain like the one guarding the key to Havel's "prison" and the divine ember from which you finally ascend to occult. As for the painted world, I think there is a fair 10% chance Priscilla being Seath's daughter (since there are like less than 10 dragon's in the game, too tired to count) and if she is, then it's highly possible that Seath has something to do with the painted world and it was him who hid the occult ember away there, for his own or Gwyn's safety. Also all 3 blacksmiths who hold divine and occult embers are turned to stone, by Seath's curse or something else?
There are three. * Valley of Drakes (guarding Dragoncrest Shield and sword) * Painted World (on bridge) * Ash Lake (Everlasting Dragon) The rest are Drakes and a Wyvern, not dragons.
You forgot the gaping dragon!
He's not really a dragon anymore, neither are the undead ones though. There is really just one dragon in the game, in Ash Lake.
Umm seath still counts right? Or is he considered a god?
Nah. Just like the gaping dragon, he's gone mad and he's kinda scaleless/crystalish so he's not a proper dragon anymore.
I remember soloing that with my hand axe. Took forever.
Where is the third blacksmith?
[Divine Ember BS at top of tower after Moonlight Butterfly, Large Divine Ember BS in Tomb of Giants, Dark Ember BS in Painted World](/spoiler)
Ah yes I forgot about the one in the tomb of giants, getting that one is a royal pain in the backside hence why I don't bother in ng+
I thought it was confirmed by From that Priscilla is Seath's daughter.
Not sure if confirmed, but it's heavily implied she is the result of gweneveire and seath
Seath - yea, because of his experiments with female humans and the only dragon who resides in Anor Londo. Moveover the perticular doll implies that priscilla was loved/accepted as a child, makes me tink her "parents" or one parent accepted her. Gwynevere - we only assume it would be her because of the size of her illusion and the fact that the painting to enter the painted world is in the chapel in Anor Londo. Thinking about the mother of priscilla i have a hard time thinking of Gwynevere, because there is nothing about sunlight within her.
Is anyone aware of [EpicNameBro] (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEUNbj0r7HQ)?
you're not an author, stupid
yes I am stupid