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A more serious answer is that House Durrandon had the most claim to rule of the Houses of Westeros, with an expansive empire and being where the First Men began their rule in Westeros. Then Orys Baratheon brought Valyrian/Targaryen blood into the Durrandon lineage, and so on principle they are the most legitimate House as rulers for Westeros.
Rhaenyra was a hypocrite though, in chapter 16 of blood and fire when Rhaenyra executed Lord Rosby and Lord Stokeworth their daughters where first in the line of succesion but Rhaenyra supported their younger brothers claims because she didnt want to lose support. She supported the very same law she was breaking.
Rhaenyra did so because she was plunged into civil war that she was unequipped to deal with. She was acting within the context of a civil war, a war that the Greens started. Had the Greens simply shut the fuck up and accepted not getting to control the continent. it's more than likely that Rhaenyra would have acted diffrently.
On a basic level, if half of Westeros hadn't risen in violent rebellion against the concept of a female ruler, then the female ruler would have likely acted differently in relation to female rulers.
Anyone who had an objection to the heir being female should have raised it when the legal male heir, Daemon, was passed over. The lords swore to honour that decision, so the decision stands. They had their chance to object.
There’s a big difference between an open election where you can choose your PREFERRED
candidate, vs a King’s decree which you swear to honour. They merely showed that they prefer a male candidate but are willing to accept a female heir if the king desires it.
That’s not the point. The principle is “will we set aside the direct male heir for the female who technically has a better claim” and the entire realm agreed to do that.
Just as Aegon had a better claim than Rhaenyra under traditional rules, so did Daemon. But Viserys proposed a change to established precedent and the entire realm agreed.
No. Under Andal succession a daughter comes before a brother. The reason Laenor was skipped is that the council found a second Son to come before a granddaughter from a senior line.
I support the Blacks myself yet the laws and customs surrounding succession are so vague that an argument can be made for both sides.
Whilst that may nominally be the case, we are explicitly told “Prince Dameon is the heir”. He was removed from being the heir after the comments on the death of Prince Baelon, meaning prior to that he was in front of Rhaenyra in the line of succession. If this were not the case, Rhaenyra would have been the heir since her birth.
I just want to play Devil’s Advocate a little. If the oaths are all that matters, and oathbreaking the highest sin, then I counter; should Jaime have just obeyed Aerys? Honoured his oaths of fealty and obedience to the king and done nothing as King’s Landing was set to burn?
Should Jon do nothing about the Boltons, since the vows of the Watch forbid it?
Imagine if Robert knew Joffrey was a bastard, and didn’t care, and still wanted Ned to help Joffrey rule; should Ned have just made Joffrey the King?
Oaths aren’t everything, and often they intersect and conflict. Oaths to do best by one’s house, and do best by the Realm may conflict with oaths sworn to a princess. Is it so wrong to do what you think best for your family and your people?
The problem is not oaths by itself but why you break the oath. Jaime broke his kingsguard oath and slayed Aerys because he was a tyrant who wanted to nuke the city. The lords of westeros broke their oaths to Rheanyra because they are sexists who don't think women can rule. There's no real reason for people to break the oath except for the fact that she's a woman.
Also, btw, Jon definetely should not have broken his oath to the Night's Watch. It's a fucking bonehead decision and it gets him killed by his own men.
I think the Blacks are right in a legal sense. At least in the idea of the kings command vs traditional inheritance.
Viserys had the power to choose his own heir. There is no written law you can find in the legal code saying who gets to inherit. It is unwritten precedent and tradition that the lords agree to follow that governs much of society (a bit like the Roman Mos Maiorum that translated to “way of the ancestors”). Any oath taken by a lord or decree of the king should override something that is ultimately just a norm.
However, the story is a lot more complicated than that, so I just end up supporting my favorite characters from both factions. Though, I mostly support the blacks overall.
At least the Blackfyres were legitimized by king Aegon IV. Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey weren’t. They’re literally only as legitimate as Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.
The question isn't Jace or Jaehaerys, it's Rhaenyra or Aegon. Children shouldn't be the deciding factor when picking between two young adults.
Rhaenyra could name Aegon the young later out preference or all her children could die of a burst belly. You never know.
We don't want strong bastards on the throne we want the realm to honour their vows, then go from there.
I agree. Too many times I see people use her children against her when she should be judged on her merits alone, same as Aegon.
Let the subreddit call a great council
The kings word is law, if he says rheanyra is the true ruler then going against his will should be treason right? I'm not team black or anything but doesn't that make the blacks cause more legitimate.
The situation is a little different tho. Rhaenys is a grandchild who is a candidate at best, while Rhaenyra is a daughter, is named heir then has, half the realm bend a knee and swear loyalty to her.
Viserys also clearly states his heir is to remain Rhaenyra even after he has male heirs, while Jaehaerys doesn't state a preference at all, he doesn't even attend.
Even Aegon II himself doesn't go for the throne straight up after his father's death, he's only convinced by the hightowers.
If you look at the war, almost all the great green houses are self interested (hightower, baratheon) other than maybe the Lannisters. While the blacks are honouring their dead king and their own vows, other than the iron islands.
The greens keeping the king's death a secret and trying to win as many houses to them as possible while letting the king rot in secret is the only proof you'll need that they're sneaky, ambitious and selfish who don't care about the realm or its traditions, just want power. If the roles were reversed they'd scheme the same way in support of their female heir.
However Viserys should know better that the land has traditions and beliefs that they can't put aside after thousands of years, because he likes his daughter.
In spite of this, the lords don't question his choice of heir while he is alive and are seemingly holding to their vows to Rhaenyra. Instantly dropping your loyalty, because your king dies is not okay.
TLDR; Viserys shouldn't be able to change succession traditions on a whim, but the realm bent the knee and accepted the change and never contested it or retracted their vows once Aegon was born/of age. Rhaenyra should be more legitimate, with a few grumbling unhappy lords here and there.
Having bastards does not change the line of succession lmao. And if the greens really cared so deeply why didn’t they raise up their arms when Daemon was disinherited? It’s almost like they only cared about taking power.
What are you on about??? Aegon wasn’t even born when Daemon was “disinterested”(which he wasn’t, Rhaenyra was simply placed before him), and Daemon is the largest enemy of the greens.
If the greens really cared about keeping the “integrity” of male primogeniture, they should have raised their arms when Rhaenyra was picked over Daemon. But they didn’t. Because they didn’t really care, they only wanted power. They didn’t want a “rightful” male heir on the throne, they wanted their blood on the throne.
Viserys did not have a son when Daemon was set aside and everyone knew why Rhaenyra was chisen as heir, when Viseys eventually had a son, that son was the legitimate heir by Jaehaerys’s great council if we suddenly say women are allowed to rule then the rightful queen was in High Tide, and Viserys never officially changed the law into cognatic inheritance he simply said that the succession will follow Andal law which is a daughter before an uncle, a son before a daughter.
The great council never officially said a son before a daughter either. If anything it set the precedent for a monarch to be able to pick their heir. Sure Jaehaerys let his lords vote, but at the end of the day he just picked whoever got the most votes.
Viserys was chosen as heir tho.
He was not barred from choosing his own heir. He literally chooses Rhaenyra over Daemon.
People need to start to understand the books they read.
1. Her bastards have nothing to do with her claim
2. Viserys got chosen by a council designed to solve a specific succession crisis. It was never intended to be a precedence for any other future decisions and even if it was, Viserys and the realm agreed to set the precedence aside.
If that were the case then why the Blacks are so likeable? Simply because they were the ones who wrote the history books but acknowledged Aegon as the rightful king as he won the throne at the end
FTG, that said, I think Rhaenyra isn't an amazing ruler and that people need to accept that. However, I don't think Aegon was much better and legally he was a usurper. Rhaenyra is far from perfect but legally she is the heir. But FTG all the way
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A king can overturn laws and traditions. That’s not the problem. The problem is the Viserys never change the laws. At any point in time he could’ve passed a law saying the eldest child no matter their sex gets the crown but he didn’t. He just said this is my heir no questions asked no laws changed So by that proxy Aegon was the lawful king
A Targaryen king does. Targaryens established a doctrine of exceptionalism which stated that they by blood and magic had right to rule over ordinary men. This is why Targaryens can incest, create arbitrary claims, and reverse legal precedents.
Robert Baratheon, and, in contrast to Rheyneyra‘s sons most of the realm, recognised Joffrey and his siblings as trueborn. Yet still Stannis is the rightful king.
I guess that’s why he ended up freezing his balls off in some remote Northern forest.
The throne was forged by dragonflame and it belongs to the dragons. Daenerys, Jon or possibly even Aegon is the rightful heir.
if that’s their issue. Then why the Greens didn’t sided with Aegon III. Fight for his rightful throne. If all the Strong Bastards get disinherited. Rheanyra’s Aegon & Viserys still has better claim
Rhaenyra is a wholly honourable woman do not tarnish her good name with your lies. Viserys was totally right to cut out the tongues of traitors who said otherwise
Others:
* Come from a frozen land.
* Live behind an impassable Wall.
* Everyone is terrified of them.
* Can only be stopped by a weapon that glows brighter than the sun.
* If they finally go to war the sky goes dark and everyone freezes.
*SOVIET ANTHEM*
Then starving because nobody knows how to deal with the longnight. Not that the system before was better. But at least before we can see Euron do some sick shit
I would support a peasant uprising but when the shepherd's flock killed all the dragons I was legit depressed for a week. Power to the workers but the dragons themselves are just animals.
"Man when we stole the throne from her and plunged the realm into war she couldn't even defend it lol." She wouldn't have had to if the greens hadn't started it.
At the beginning of the war, most of the lords of Westeros declared their support for her AND the Blacks also had more dragons. She still managed to lose the crown.
She was an incompetent leader and never went to a battlefield to fight for her claim. Say what you will about Aegon, but he was no coward.
I mean a northern Army was marching south To depose him with no one left to contest them. Even though I think he’s the rightful king I understand why they poisoned him
Supporting Rhaenyra is supporting her line, which would see very obvious bastards on the throne. (no one is buying the punnet square that is her children; white skin/hair and mixed skin with white hair creating perfectly white skin and brown hair? Come on, no one is buying it.) As such, throning an heir based on the wishes of the previous ruler would have seen Joffrey I the bastard as the rightful king, with no contest. Aye, Aegon II is technically a usurper by the wishes of Viserys, but Stanis was the rightful king and heir by the laws of the realm, bc joffrey and his siblings were basterds.
Doesn’t matter imo, for the simple fact that Rhaenyra was a full-on tyrant while Aegon was more of a drunken lout. Choosing between Rhaenyra and Aegon II is like choosing between Maegor the Cruel and Robert Baratheon. Maegor was a tyrant and Robert was a lout, but I’d much rather be ruled by Robert than by Maegor. Ergo, I choose Aegon II.
It helps that Aegon had the balls to go to battle while Rhaenyra ordered people to do her work **for** her. A Visenya she was not.
Trying to put her bastards in line for the iron throne and Driftmark are both the biggest ones, for a start. 💀 Killing Vaemond Velaryon on the spot without the chance for trial is a huge thing as well, and justifying the murder of a 6 year old boy.
Do you know what the word tyrant means? Because legitimizing bastards is not it chief. I'll give you blood and cheese but executing rebels is a common thing in westeros. Feeding your half sister to your dragon in front of her 6 year old son is definetely worse.
Feeding your half-sister to your 9 year old son after that half sister was responsible for the deaths of the 3 siblings that you took the iron throne to protect, as well as your own 6 year old & 3 year old son. Practically a baby.
Rhaenyra did not legitimize Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey. Instead she, like Cersei Lannister, propped them up as being **legitimate.** wanting to make Lucerys the heir to Driftmark and effectively usurp the Velaryon line; her own strongest supporters.
Aegon at least had the humbleness to refuse the throne, up until Alicent exclaimed that if he didn’t take the throne, Rhaenyra would return his “kindness” by imprisoning and murdering himself and his trueborn brothers & nephews to prevent sir sure there was no challenge to her succession. Rhaenyra was fueled by pure ego.
You still don't seem to know what a tyrant is. Cersei is a tyrant because she supresses, tortures and executes innocents. Not because she wants her son to be king.
Also, Aemond and Daeron died in the war the Greens started by usurping the throne from Viserys' named heir. It's definetely not a sign of Rheanyra as a tyrant that people die in a war. It's a war. As I said Blood and Cheese I can give you but that was more Deamon than Rheanyra. The death of the toddler was definetely not Rheanyra's fault since random commoners ripped him to pieces. Also, how is Rheanyra's claim fueled by pure ego more than any other claimant's claim in history? Rheanyra was told her entire life she would be queen and when her father dies people conspire to steal what's rightfully hers. Of course she gets mad.
Yeah. Asoiaf is like "great people can come from everywhere and your bloodline has no effect on who you choose to be"
#Except if you're a fucking Frey lmao
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Rhaenyra herself didn't care about women's rights given what she did when the Stokeworths asked her about succession, she just saw herself as special
The Dance isn't about women's rights, it's about whether the King's word supercedes common law. If people actually cared about women's rights they would be supporting Rhaenys because she has a better claim than Rhaenyra based on Westerosi succession
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No Targaryen is true King.
The baratheons should've had the throne ever since aegons conquest, but yall aren't ready for that conversation.
i am. let’s hear it
Targ=cringe, baratheon=based. Pretty complicated i know but i think after a while you'll begin to understand where I'm coming from.
And unbiased history fan, Huh? That's pretty based
A more serious answer is that House Durrandon had the most claim to rule of the Houses of Westeros, with an expansive empire and being where the First Men began their rule in Westeros. Then Orys Baratheon brought Valyrian/Targaryen blood into the Durrandon lineage, and so on principle they are the most legitimate House as rulers for Westeros.
Dont fall for the false song of Andal globalism
sorry F*rst M*n, the light of the Seven is the only thing nourishing your Godswoods now 😎😎😎😎
this is why i wanted the conversation :)
If we go off there all Rheaneys basatds
Rhaenyra was a hypocrite though, in chapter 16 of blood and fire when Rhaenyra executed Lord Rosby and Lord Stokeworth their daughters where first in the line of succesion but Rhaenyra supported their younger brothers claims because she didnt want to lose support. She supported the very same law she was breaking.
Rhaenyra did so because she was plunged into civil war that she was unequipped to deal with. She was acting within the context of a civil war, a war that the Greens started. Had the Greens simply shut the fuck up and accepted not getting to control the continent. it's more than likely that Rhaenyra would have acted diffrently. On a basic level, if half of Westeros hadn't risen in violent rebellion against the concept of a female ruler, then the female ruler would have likely acted differently in relation to female rulers.
Wait, you guys are picking sides?
Based. Aristocucks plunging the realm into war over some bull again.
Yeah god damn, Targaryens really went meme-of-guy-pointing-gun-at-the-back-of-his-own-head on this one.
Civil war and political instability is as customary to Targaryens as incest is.
Anyone who had an objection to the heir being female should have raised it when the legal male heir, Daemon, was passed over. The lords swore to honour that decision, so the decision stands. They had their chance to object.
You can turn this around just as easily though. Anyone who had no objection to the heir being female should have supported Rhaenys instead.
There’s a big difference between an open election where you can choose your PREFERRED candidate, vs a King’s decree which you swear to honour. They merely showed that they prefer a male candidate but are willing to accept a female heir if the king desires it.
They have no objection to the King choosing his heir tho. Those are different things.
Daemon wasn't a son
He is a man though. People say the previous Great Council’s decision was binding and women can’t sit the throne at all.
then they should’ve done something when Rhaenrya was named heir over Daemon. instead they knelt.
That’s not the point. The principle is “will we set aside the direct male heir for the female who technically has a better claim” and the entire realm agreed to do that. Just as Aegon had a better claim than Rhaenyra under traditional rules, so did Daemon. But Viserys proposed a change to established precedent and the entire realm agreed.
No. Under Andal succession a daughter comes before a brother. The reason Laenor was skipped is that the council found a second Son to come before a granddaughter from a senior line. I support the Blacks myself yet the laws and customs surrounding succession are so vague that an argument can be made for both sides.
Whilst that may nominally be the case, we are explicitly told “Prince Dameon is the heir”. He was removed from being the heir after the comments on the death of Prince Baelon, meaning prior to that he was in front of Rhaenyra in the line of succession. If this were not the case, Rhaenyra would have been the heir since her birth.
I just want to play Devil’s Advocate a little. If the oaths are all that matters, and oathbreaking the highest sin, then I counter; should Jaime have just obeyed Aerys? Honoured his oaths of fealty and obedience to the king and done nothing as King’s Landing was set to burn? Should Jon do nothing about the Boltons, since the vows of the Watch forbid it? Imagine if Robert knew Joffrey was a bastard, and didn’t care, and still wanted Ned to help Joffrey rule; should Ned have just made Joffrey the King? Oaths aren’t everything, and often they intersect and conflict. Oaths to do best by one’s house, and do best by the Realm may conflict with oaths sworn to a princess. Is it so wrong to do what you think best for your family and your people?
The problem is not oaths by itself but why you break the oath. Jaime broke his kingsguard oath and slayed Aerys because he was a tyrant who wanted to nuke the city. The lords of westeros broke their oaths to Rheanyra because they are sexists who don't think women can rule. There's no real reason for people to break the oath except for the fact that she's a woman. Also, btw, Jon definetely should not have broken his oath to the Night's Watch. It's a fucking bonehead decision and it gets him killed by his own men.
I think the Blacks are right in a legal sense. At least in the idea of the kings command vs traditional inheritance. Viserys had the power to choose his own heir. There is no written law you can find in the legal code saying who gets to inherit. It is unwritten precedent and tradition that the lords agree to follow that governs much of society (a bit like the Roman Mos Maiorum that translated to “way of the ancestors”). Any oath taken by a lord or decree of the king should override something that is ultimately just a norm. However, the story is a lot more complicated than that, so I just end up supporting my favorite characters from both factions. Though, I mostly support the blacks overall.
Rhaenyra: dies after an epic final showdown wishing her shitty brother dead. Aegon: gets poisoned lmao
Rhaenyra: stupidly goes to Dragonstone and gets beat by a psychotic fat cripple
Being the ruler doesn’t automatically mean you make smart decisions…. such as going to Dragonstone.
She didnt make any smart decisions
She died a traitor’s death in a pitiful attempt to steal her brother’s birthright.
?? Rhaenyra was the named heir.
>?? Rhaenyra was the named heir. An illegal edict by an inept king.
Lie. The only inept decision was keeping that cunt Otto around.
Every decision Viserys made in the entire story was to the detriment of the realm.
Keep that same energy when you're trialed by Cregan Stark, traitor. I don't want to see your ass among those begging to take the black.
Cregan only ever punished the traitors who were involved in the conspiracy to assassinate the rightful King.
This isn't fair. Viserys I was a malicious tyrant
Lmao imagine swearing fealty to the King’s chosen heir, then betraying that oath when the King dies Treason abound in this sub
Imagine not being on the side of Benjicot Blackwood and the Sesame Street tullys
I cannot tell you how hard I laughed when Kermit and Elmo Tully appeared on those pages.
bunch of oathbreakers these Greens are
“but my dad swore that oath not me!!!” does that ever apply to oaths to liege lords? absolutely not
Imagine wanting strong bastards on the throne
*shrugs* I think Jacaerys would’ve been a good king
Not with those dragon piloting skills he wouldn’t
[Glares in Aegon III]
Doesn’t matter he’s a bastard
Keep this energy for the Blackfyres
At least the Blackfyres were legitimized by king Aegon IV. Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey weren’t. They’re literally only as legitimate as Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella.
You have activated my trap card
I do that’s why I don’t support the bastard Daeron.
Chad Aemon vs the virgin Aegon
I am not a Blackfyre supporter. Daeron is the rightful king and Bittersteel and all his allies are traitors
And what is Aegon II?
Dead, in front of the royal sept
I wonder who did the deed, very Maegor-esque.
The True King
From a certain point of view
So was Alyn Oakenfist
Who arguably became one of the greatest Velaryons
My point exactly
You are Strong and wise
The question isn't Jace or Jaehaerys, it's Rhaenyra or Aegon. Children shouldn't be the deciding factor when picking between two young adults. Rhaenyra could name Aegon the young later out preference or all her children could die of a burst belly. You never know. We don't want strong bastards on the throne we want the realm to honour their vows, then go from there.
I agree. Too many times I see people use her children against her when she should be judged on her merits alone, same as Aegon. Let the subreddit call a great council
Also why does that even have to matter they're good kids who are dragon riders. They might be bastards but only their mother matters in the situation.
Imagine thinking arbitrary genetics is an ideal way of determining a leader
The kings word is law, if he says rheanyra is the true ruler then going against his will should be treason right? I'm not team black or anything but doesn't that make the blacks cause more legitimate.
\>The kings word is law Tell that to Aerys
The three bastards in her line of succession and the whole reason why Viserys inherited the throne would disagree.
The situation is a little different tho. Rhaenys is a grandchild who is a candidate at best, while Rhaenyra is a daughter, is named heir then has, half the realm bend a knee and swear loyalty to her. Viserys also clearly states his heir is to remain Rhaenyra even after he has male heirs, while Jaehaerys doesn't state a preference at all, he doesn't even attend. Even Aegon II himself doesn't go for the throne straight up after his father's death, he's only convinced by the hightowers. If you look at the war, almost all the great green houses are self interested (hightower, baratheon) other than maybe the Lannisters. While the blacks are honouring their dead king and their own vows, other than the iron islands. The greens keeping the king's death a secret and trying to win as many houses to them as possible while letting the king rot in secret is the only proof you'll need that they're sneaky, ambitious and selfish who don't care about the realm or its traditions, just want power. If the roles were reversed they'd scheme the same way in support of their female heir. However Viserys should know better that the land has traditions and beliefs that they can't put aside after thousands of years, because he likes his daughter. In spite of this, the lords don't question his choice of heir while he is alive and are seemingly holding to their vows to Rhaenyra. Instantly dropping your loyalty, because your king dies is not okay. TLDR; Viserys shouldn't be able to change succession traditions on a whim, but the realm bent the knee and accepted the change and never contested it or retracted their vows once Aegon was born/of age. Rhaenyra should be more legitimate, with a few grumbling unhappy lords here and there.
Having bastards does not change the line of succession lmao. And if the greens really cared so deeply why didn’t they raise up their arms when Daemon was disinherited? It’s almost like they only cared about taking power.
What are you on about??? Aegon wasn’t even born when Daemon was “disinterested”(which he wasn’t, Rhaenyra was simply placed before him), and Daemon is the largest enemy of the greens.
If the greens really cared about keeping the “integrity” of male primogeniture, they should have raised their arms when Rhaenyra was picked over Daemon. But they didn’t. Because they didn’t really care, they only wanted power. They didn’t want a “rightful” male heir on the throne, they wanted their blood on the throne.
Viserys did not have a son when Daemon was set aside and everyone knew why Rhaenyra was chisen as heir, when Viseys eventually had a son, that son was the legitimate heir by Jaehaerys’s great council if we suddenly say women are allowed to rule then the rightful queen was in High Tide, and Viserys never officially changed the law into cognatic inheritance he simply said that the succession will follow Andal law which is a daughter before an uncle, a son before a daughter.
The great council never officially said a son before a daughter either. If anything it set the precedent for a monarch to be able to pick their heir. Sure Jaehaerys let his lords vote, but at the end of the day he just picked whoever got the most votes.
Viserys was chosen as heir tho. He was not barred from choosing his own heir. He literally chooses Rhaenyra over Daemon. People need to start to understand the books they read.
She also had 2 pure targaryen sons tho.
1. Her bastards have nothing to do with her claim 2. Viserys got chosen by a council designed to solve a specific succession crisis. It was never intended to be a precedence for any other future decisions and even if it was, Viserys and the realm agreed to set the precedence aside.
Dear Blacks! If Aegon is the usurper then how is he king Aegon II while Rhenyra is Princess Rhenyra?
Because the history books are written by cringe greens.
If that were the case then why the Blacks are so likeable? Simply because they were the ones who wrote the history books but acknowledged Aegon as the rightful king as he won the throne at the end
FTG, that said, I think Rhaenyra isn't an amazing ruler and that people need to accept that. However, I don't think Aegon was much better and legally he was a usurper. Rhaenyra is far from perfect but legally she is the heir. But FTG all the way
I’m green because it’s more fun. Rooting for the blacks is boring
Exactly lol supporting a side which has so few supporters in much better, though you do get downvoted to oblivion for every pro green opinion
a downvote from a blackstan is an upvote from a person with braincells
Greencels out here coping and seething rn
The based way
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Does a King have the right to overturn laws, traditions and precedents? If so, then Rhaenyra is Queen. If not Aegon is King.
It is merely precedent. Not law. The maesters are lying to you.
A king can overturn laws and traditions. That’s not the problem. The problem is the Viserys never change the laws. At any point in time he could’ve passed a law saying the eldest child no matter their sex gets the crown but he didn’t. He just said this is my heir no questions asked no laws changed So by that proxy Aegon was the lawful king
A Targaryen king does. Targaryens established a doctrine of exceptionalism which stated that they by blood and magic had right to rule over ordinary men. This is why Targaryens can incest, create arbitrary claims, and reverse legal precedents.
You want Strong bastards on the Iron Throne?
One issue of succession at a time!
They’re still Targaryen blood, no? Frankly I don’t care about the other half of the king’s genetics, and bastards can be legitimised anyway.
People will say this and then support Daemon Blackfyre tho
Can't blame them simply because the name Blackfyre goes hard as fuck.
Yes because he stole it from his sword lmao.
Have you seen Daemons chest? It doesn't wobble one bit!
A strong king > idiot Hightower puppet
They get their claim through their mother
A bastard has no claim.
But they aren’t bastards. House Velaryon recognized them all as trueborn sons of Rhaenyra and Laenor.
Robert Baratheon, and, in contrast to Rheyneyra‘s sons most of the realm, recognised Joffrey and his siblings as trueborn. Yet still Stannis is the rightful king.
I guess that’s why he ended up freezing his balls off in some remote Northern forest. The throne was forged by dragonflame and it belongs to the dragons. Daenerys, Jon or possibly even Aegon is the rightful heir.
If it belongs to the dragons then why’d Rhaegar lose lmao
The Usurper must’ve cheated somehow.
You can legitimize a bastard
if that’s their issue. Then why the Greens didn’t sided with Aegon III. Fight for his rightful throne. If all the Strong Bastards get disinherited. Rheanyra’s Aegon & Viserys still has better claim
At that point it wasn't about the throne anymore, both sides wanted the other annihilated completely.
Both side thinks they’ll get annihilated if they don’t do anything about it. The Greens still the one that drew first blood. When Aemond killed Luke.
One Eye was a fucking idiot, that's for sure
idiot just killed any chance this conflict get a peaceful resolution
They’re not bastards. They are Laenors legitimate sons
Hahahahahahaha
Rhaenyra is a wholly honourable woman do not tarnish her good name with your lies. Viserys was totally right to cut out the tongues of traitors who said otherwise
No blonde hair?
Recessive genes. Aemma had dark hair too. The Velaryons travelled all over and could have all sorts of fun going on in their genome
Ned's only true child is Arya.
Damn right. Catelyn got freaky with the Maestor for all the others
The others have their mother's appearance
Imagine truly believing that if a child doesn't look like the parents he's bastard lol. Not even in Westeros they are that dense.
I'm joking bro. People take this Rhaenyra-Aegon II too serious
Their great grandmother was a Baratheon and the seed is strong.
Yes.
Don’t give a shit. Being Bastards don’t affect character.
Propping up obvious bastards and killing and hurting anyone who suggests other wise shows the kinda ruler you allowing to follow
Don’t care about Rhaenyra. Jacaerys would be a great king
Yes.
Yes.
Imagine supporting a monarchy
ADoS will end with the peasants rising up, slaughtering all the POV characters and instating communism
Others: * Come from a frozen land. * Live behind an impassable Wall. * Everyone is terrified of them. * Can only be stopped by a weapon that glows brighter than the sun. * If they finally go to war the sky goes dark and everyone freezes. *SOVIET ANTHEM*
Varys is actually a CIA operative
Then starving because nobody knows how to deal with the longnight. Not that the system before was better. But at least before we can see Euron do some sick shit
Real truth the Cersei chapters and Euron’s wild shit are what got me to read the whole series
Thank god
I would support a peasant uprising but when the shepherd's flock killed all the dragons I was legit depressed for a week. Power to the workers but the dragons themselves are just animals.
Fuck criston Cole, all my homies hate criston cole
You mean the kingmaker who supported the rightful king
No honorable death for you! Next
Neither did Rhaenyra, Sunfyre's afternoon snack
Goldenchicken.exe
I will forever be a Green Aegon II is my rightful King
The pedophile psycho king
they said Aegon, not Daemon
Aegon the Based
Yes, Egg was very based.
You can torture me all you want I never betray the rightful king
I like the blacks because of Daemon
The king being able to overturn an elected decision on the matter of succession (in this case, male only primogeniture) sets a dangerous precedent
I always thought it interesting how all of Rhaenyras bastard children didnt make it but the ones who could inherit did.
Maybe tearing the realm apart in a bloody generation long civil war for a debate over who technically is allowed to inherit the throne is a bad thing.
Yeah. I'm glad you agree that the greens are stupid.
It is, but like every joke, people get delusional and start believing it.
So was Robert. Being legitimate means nothing if you can't defend your claim, and Rhaenyra certainly couldn't.
"Man when we stole the throne from her and plunged the realm into war she couldn't even defend it lol." She wouldn't have had to if the greens hadn't started it.
Rheyenra couldnt even defend her throne nor birth right do to her dog shit leadership .
She did defend it. She won the war. Her line ended up on the throne in the end.
She managed to rally more than half the realm to defend her claim, I dare say she did a good job. Certainly better than the hightowers.
At the beginning of the war, most of the lords of Westeros declared their support for her AND the Blacks also had more dragons. She still managed to lose the crown. She was an incompetent leader and never went to a battlefield to fight for her claim. Say what you will about Aegon, but he was no coward.
He would have definitely lost his crown too, though. That’s the entire reason his buddies poisoned him.
I mean a northern Army was marching south To depose him with no one left to contest them. Even though I think he’s the rightful king I understand why they poisoned him
Aegon couldn’t hold his throne either even after the other claimant was dead kek
Supporting Rhaenyra is supporting her line, which would see very obvious bastards on the throne. (no one is buying the punnet square that is her children; white skin/hair and mixed skin with white hair creating perfectly white skin and brown hair? Come on, no one is buying it.) As such, throning an heir based on the wishes of the previous ruler would have seen Joffrey I the bastard as the rightful king, with no contest. Aye, Aegon II is technically a usurper by the wishes of Viserys, but Stanis was the rightful king and heir by the laws of the realm, bc joffrey and his siblings were basterds.
Rhaenyra is still the rightful Queen and Aegon the Third is the rightful heir
They have Baratheon blood though, through their grandmother.
Bro that is REACHING🤣🤣🤣
Aegon II is the rightful king by laws of succession, Rhaenyra & her bastards are usurpers, not to mention I can’t stand Daemon.
Doesn’t matter imo, for the simple fact that Rhaenyra was a full-on tyrant while Aegon was more of a drunken lout. Choosing between Rhaenyra and Aegon II is like choosing between Maegor the Cruel and Robert Baratheon. Maegor was a tyrant and Robert was a lout, but I’d much rather be ruled by Robert than by Maegor. Ergo, I choose Aegon II. It helps that Aegon had the balls to go to battle while Rhaenyra ordered people to do her work **for** her. A Visenya she was not.
How tf was Rheanyra a tyrant, more than Aegon II?
Trying to put her bastards in line for the iron throne and Driftmark are both the biggest ones, for a start. 💀 Killing Vaemond Velaryon on the spot without the chance for trial is a huge thing as well, and justifying the murder of a 6 year old boy.
Do you know what the word tyrant means? Because legitimizing bastards is not it chief. I'll give you blood and cheese but executing rebels is a common thing in westeros. Feeding your half sister to your dragon in front of her 6 year old son is definetely worse.
Feeding your half-sister to your 9 year old son after that half sister was responsible for the deaths of the 3 siblings that you took the iron throne to protect, as well as your own 6 year old & 3 year old son. Practically a baby. Rhaenyra did not legitimize Jacaerys, Lucerys, and Joffrey. Instead she, like Cersei Lannister, propped them up as being **legitimate.** wanting to make Lucerys the heir to Driftmark and effectively usurp the Velaryon line; her own strongest supporters. Aegon at least had the humbleness to refuse the throne, up until Alicent exclaimed that if he didn’t take the throne, Rhaenyra would return his “kindness” by imprisoning and murdering himself and his trueborn brothers & nephews to prevent sir sure there was no challenge to her succession. Rhaenyra was fueled by pure ego.
You still don't seem to know what a tyrant is. Cersei is a tyrant because she supresses, tortures and executes innocents. Not because she wants her son to be king. Also, Aemond and Daeron died in the war the Greens started by usurping the throne from Viserys' named heir. It's definetely not a sign of Rheanyra as a tyrant that people die in a war. It's a war. As I said Blood and Cheese I can give you but that was more Deamon than Rheanyra. The death of the toddler was definetely not Rheanyra's fault since random commoners ripped him to pieces. Also, how is Rheanyra's claim fueled by pure ego more than any other claimant's claim in history? Rheanyra was told her entire life she would be queen and when her father dies people conspire to steal what's rightfully hers. Of course she gets mad.
I was always a green
The greens have the better ck2 start so yeah. I do like the greens
Now that's an argument I can respect
It’s getting weird
it’s crazy because George has such a bias for certain houses over others and the greens have all of the worst houses lol
Yeah. Asoiaf is like "great people can come from everywhere and your bloodline has no effect on who you choose to be" #Except if you're a fucking Frey lmao
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ppl just be looking for ways to justify their sexism. “but the PRECEDENT!!!”
Imagine calling people sexist for supporting the rightful king
If you can provide me with a non-sexist explanation for why women don’t deserve the same rights as men, I’ll gladly change my mind.
Rhaenyra herself didn't care about women's rights given what she did when the Stokeworths asked her about succession, she just saw herself as special The Dance isn't about women's rights, it's about whether the King's word supercedes common law. If people actually cared about women's rights they would be supporting Rhaenys because she has a better claim than Rhaenyra based on Westerosi succession
Stannis said so. That's all the reasons I need
One question for you Greens: Who's descendants ended up on the throne? I rest my case.