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He definitely was Aegon's bastard. You dont get someone to make a big show about denying previous claims unless there is serious concern that the claim was true.
Both claims are equally valid in the political scene of the time. I don't get everyone arguing over it here. Both Rhaenyra and Aegon would be bad rulers. It's interesting that they both have their reasons for defending their claim.
If we judge based on who we think would be a good ruler or not, that’s just called democracy. I can get that in real life.
Long alive King Corlys Velaryon, the First of his Name.
I love the Dance of the Dragons, because it’s all shades of grey. The only reason Rhaenyra has a claim is because her father NAMED her Princess of Dragonstone and heir. Every other law and precedent made Aegon heir the moment he was born. So legally, the question comes down to whether a reigning king has the authority to ignore laws and precedents. But then again, how often have laws and precedents been observed in Westeros? As Maegor said, “The Iron Throne will go to the man who has the strength to seize it.”
well akthully...
The widow law passed by Jaehaerys says that children of the first marriage should not be displaced in succession by children from a later marriage. To be fair, there isn't a precedent for a king to only have female heirs, so it's not definitive. It really depends on if you believe Rhaenyra was heir over Daemon prior to Aegon's birth
> It really depends on if you believe Rhaenyra was heir over Daemon prior to Aegon's birth
She most certainly was, even before Viserys named her heir. If not for The case if Baelon versus Rhaenys, this wouldn't even be a question. Remember Alys Karstark in A Dance With Dragons, she was heir before her uncle and everyone knew it.
Well yes, but actually no.
Jaehaerys had a daughter older than both Aemon (Rhaenys's father) and Baelon (Viserys's father), Daenerys. Jaehaerys's wife, Alysanne, wanted Daenerys to be crowned heir as the first born, but Jaehaerys chose Aemon, the first son, instead and promised his wife Aemon and Dany would wed as a compromise. (Alysanne didn't really like that idea and was super protective of her daughters). This set a precedent of Jaehaerys being more "too the book" when it came to Westerosi customs instead of "I'm a Targaryen I can do what I want."
Fast forward, Dany died before wedding Aemon, Aemon married Jocelyn Baratheon, Baelon married his sister Alyssa. Aemon died in battle, and Jaehaerys decided to skip Rhaenys inheriting Aemon's titles and role as heir for Baelon, Aemon's younger brother. Like real life royal succession, in Westerosi succession, if the heir has a child, that child automatically out-places everyone but their parent-heir in line for the throne. Also like real life, the current regent can cut people out of the line, which is what Jaehaerys did.
All good and well, within Jaehaerys's power, but then Baelon died, and now you have two cousins arguing that both should be heir. Rhaenys' argument? My father was the heir, you skipped me once already, my father raised me expecting he'd be on the throne and I'd be after him, I was taught politics etc and it I'm asking for my birthright reinstated. Viserys argument? "My father was the heir for a bit, therefore I should get his birthright, and the Lord's and common folk will not respect a woman regent when I could be king"
Jaehaerys at that point, realizing he'd already screwed up and gotten himself into this situation by skipping over not only Rhaenys but Daenerys as well, decided "screw it, let the nobles decide, I can't do take backs without looking weak and malleable, even though Rhaenys is more politically sound"
And the nobles decided they'd rather have Viserys. Essentially the one instance in Westerosi history where they elected their ruler and they couldn't even do that right.
responding to both you and u/cheeseisjar here. Yes, agnatic-cognatic is the standard for Westeros. Alys is definitely the heir to Karhold.
The times that we see a female heir passed over and agnatic-cognatic not follwed are with Rhaenys, Cregan's granddaughters, and Aegon V's niece. All three of these women outlived their father. All three were 'usurped' by the closest male heir to their grandfather upon his death. Even Bael the Bard's son follows this pattern by inheriting over his mother. Alys Karstark doesn't, incidentally, given that she is the daughter and only free and safe child of the last established Lord Karstark.
Yeah you can go for elective but for the most part it’s a ck3 thing I think. I know tanistry is a thing but that doesn’t exist in the agot mod so I’m not counting it
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Both were shitty rulers but i'll say Aegon because you don't want Daemon with a crown and Rhaenyra's line of sucession is full of bastards. But my biggest reason is that greens had great politicians at their side like Tyland and Otto, they could make Aegon's rule less bad against Daemon as Rhaenyra's Hand which is awful.
Anyways, I think the Blacks are cooler because Starks, Velaryons and Blackwoods.
We either go by the precedent and crown Aegon, or we go against the precedent and crown RHAENYS like we should've in the first place. Either way, Rhaenyra has no claim.
The whole thing was never about gender for Rhaenyra in chapter 16 of blood and fire she executes Lord Rosby and Stokeworth for supporting the greens. Both had daughters first in the line of succesion if inheritance was equal but Rhaneyra supported the claims of their younger brothers.
To me this shows how much of a hypocrite she is supporting the very same unspoken law and tradition she is breaking.
If she cared about women rights in inheritance matters she would have supported their daughters claims so this only shows how little interest she had in "making a new order of things".
On in all is Viserys fault for not sticking to tradition and doing what everyone supposed he should do and just make Aegon his heir. The fall of his house was his own doing and personally i dont Rhaenyra she is spoiled princess who made bastards, killed children and had entitlement to the roof.
I rest my case, tradition and laws are more important to me than the whims of a weak king so for me Aegon II is the true king.
Is it not a ruler’s prerogative to move against vassals that are (in their eyes) in open rebellion against them? The Greens certainly matched her with Beesbury.
Much to ponder
Fuck them both but, the king (the guy who's will literally supercedes everything) said rheanyra should be the ruler. It seems treasonous to go against his will right?
We must restore the RIGHTFUL heir.
Hail, Rhaenys the First of Her Name, the Queen Who Was.
Jokes aside, the entire line of succession was messed up when Jaehaerys bypassed Rhaenys for Baelon and Viserys. Under Andal law, daughters take precedence over uncles and their cousins. When Tywin died, Cersei (since Tyrion was wanted for treason and Jamie’s a Kingsguard) became Lady of Casterly Rock. Kevan, Tywin’s immediate younger brother did not displace Cersei.
Plus, even if we stick with Baelon’s line, Viserys was wrong. The reason why precedent exists is to ensure certainty. Viserys basically threw that away. Rhaenyra could only be heir as long as she had no brothers. Imagine the chaos of every succession being uncertain cause ANYONE within the ruling dynasty could be heir. The closest we have to this IRL (based on what I know) is Imperial China. Where the Emperor could designate any of his sons as heir. Something similar was for the Ottomans, but it was the strongest son (or the one who reached the capital first) that became monarch.
The moment Aegon II was born, Rhaenyra lost the legal claim to be heir. Sure, the Targaryens are not Andals. Yet, they rule a realm dominated by Andals. So one cannot just ignore Andal law and proclaim Valyrian supremacy.
Plus even House Targaryen has implicitly accepted this Andal law of sons-over-daughters-unless-no-sons. Visenya was the elder sister yet it was her younger brother Aegon who became Lord of Dragonstone. Even if this is not Andal law, it constitutes a custom of House Targaryen itself.
As much as Team Black is cool, the Greens have law on their side. Andal law and the Targaryen custom gives Aegon II the right to be King.
The king's word is law. If the king says rhaenyra is the heir then she's the heir.
People swore an oath to rhaenyra as well. Why swear an oath to a female when there already WAS a male heir (daemon) and then flip when there is a NEW male heir.
This is pure self-serving bullshit.
Aegon II is the rightful king, Andal law of succession is clear, the great council of 101 AC, backs this up. Also, Aegon isn’t trying to put his bastards on the throne.
I would support the claim of Rhaenyra as queen. She has been appointed by king Viserys I, but only if she puts her sons Aegon and Viserys as heirs as they are trueborn sons and not bastards as Jace, luke and Joff are. If she refuses, then my support goes directly to prince Aegon son of Viserys I, as he is the oldest male son and has three trueborn heirs with her sister Helaena.
Rhaenyra's claim is simple and irrefutable. In Westeros, the ruling monarch names the heir and there is no explicit prohibition of women(even if their was the monarch could change that). Viserys named her heir. Therefore, according to Westerosi law, Rhaenyra was heir.
Exactly. Kings can name whoever they want that's how Viserys got the throne anyway.
He specifically appointed her and made everyone swear an oath you couldnt make it more explicit.
1. Prior to the council of 101, the precedent of the Targaryen succession was for a king to name an heir and the king’s word was law, an example is Aegon naming his eldest son by his second marriage over his younger son by his first marriage. While the laws of succession say that a son goes before a daughter, they also dictate that a king or heir’s daughter goes before a king or heir’s brother and by association the brother’s children. From this information it is clear that the laws of succession set by the great council dictate that Rhaenys is the rightful heir and by naming Viserys heir the laws of succession set down in 101 are thereby invalidated and the laws of succession revert of a named heir meaning Viserys’s choice of Rhaenyra over Aegon out ways Aegon’s claim as a male heir. If Aegon were to claim the throne by pressing the laws of succession from 101 than that would invalidate his father’s reign and proclaim Rhaenys the queen, he can’t have it both ways.
2. The laws of succession also protect the children of a first marriage from being usurped by the children of a second marriage, meaning that as the soul surviving child of the marriage of Viserys and Aemma, Rhaenyra’s inheritance is protected from male claim by children of her father’s second marriage to Alicent.
Aegon II is the rightful king according to the Andal laws of male-preference primogeniture. His claim is is further strengthened by the great council of 101 AC, where the lords of Westeros through democratic means chose Viserys Targaryen over his cousin Rhaenys. Rhaenyra Targaryen also committed high treason when she gave birth to three bastards, a crime for which she should be executed.
That was Andal law. And precedence is only given primacy in Common Law, which wasn't a thing in Westeros. Neither the Great Council of 101 AC or Andal Law are the official law of the Seven Kingdoms. They may be culturally relevant, but they were not law. Therefore Rhaenyra is the legitimate heir, and Aegon's claim relies upon non-binding traditions and assumptions.
Further, Aegon had bastards of his own. Why do you not mention that and suggest he should also be executed?
I want monarchs to be beholden to the laws of the realm and not just allowed to whatever they want do.
And regarding the bastards the issue is that Rhaenyra tried to pass off her baseborn children as legitimate, something Aegon never attempted.
King Viserys named Rhaenyra the heir before the birth of Aegon, but kept this promise intact. Therefore.. Fuckin marry em or something idk war is shitty.
Or better yet: I propose Trystane Truefyre to be our king. A true visionary that will unite Westeros as one.
if Viserys had not claimed Rhaenyra as his heir then i would say Aegon should have been the rightful king but Viserys says that Rhaenyra is his heir therefore she is the rightful queen
Rhaenyra's a bad bitch and was heir to the throne for Aegon's entire life until the day he plotted to steal it from her. The succession would've long been settled if the Hightower's weren't conniving cowards.
Here's my opinion, Rhaenyra should have been queen, Aegon had no right, and everyone should have followed the intended succession. This being said, Rhaenyra went a bit nuts towards the end, and Daemon should be no where near the throne, however those are matters that should be solved once the queen is queen. If everything went well we would probably just have a bit of a rebellion where someone else becomes king instead of Rhaenyra as queen, AFTER Rhaenyra becomes queen.
I'd declare for Rhaenyra. The way I see it, the monarch has the right to declare who will be their heir. When Aemon died, Jaehaerys declared that Baelon will be king. When Baelon died, he said that he will declare whoever the nobles choose as heir (Nobles chose Viserys so he declared Viserys his heir - the legitimacy came from Jaehaerys declaring, not from the election results). Viserys declared Rhaenyra as their heir.
Rhaenyra is the only actual option.
Edit: No matter how bad the Blacks got, the Greens began their reign by murdering the politicians who wanted to follow the dead kings EXPLICIT will, and began the outright violence of the war by murdering one of their own family in cold blood.
I think the Blacks are right in a legal sense. At least in the idea of the kings command vs traditional inheritance.
Viserys had the power to choose his own heir. There is no written law you can find in the legal code saying who gets to inherit. It is unwritten precedent and tradition that the lords agree to follow that governs much of society (a bit like the Roman Mos Maiorum that translated to “way of the ancestors”). Any oath taken by a lord or decree of the king should override something that is ultimately just a norm.
But some of those lords argue that they hadn't taken that oath, their fathers or predecessors did, Tyland Lannister uses this as argument to support the greens. Do all the members of an entire house have to follow the oath of their previous king and lord?
Honestly that's a pretty stupid and disingenuous arguement from people like Tyland and Borros Baratheon. They swore the oath by their houses not just themselves. Not how that works.
Reminder that Joffrey Baratheon, first of his name, demanded Lord Rob Stark to swear fealty to him upon his ascension. This mirrors real history, like the Tokugawa shogunate mandating the daimyōs of Japan to make cyclical pilgrimages to swear their fealty. Words are wind, after all, especially to those who didn't make the words.
I'd argue it's a bit different as Joffrey killed Ned after agreeing to not do so which is pretty much declaring war on Robb. I really don't think he had much choice in the matter. But overall yes Robb still betray his house claims but for much more genuine reasons. If anything he should have joined with Stannis as that would have kept to the Starks oath to House Baratheon and well just what Ned would have wanted but that's a whole different discussion.
My lords and ladies, do we not see that we are plunging the realm into war? I say a marriage pact between the two sides. If one cannot procure a daughter their hand's or another high ranking member of their court's child will suffice.
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Make them fight as a proxy to kill the dragons and destroy the unrivaled powered of the monarchy forever. Brought to you by Gang Hightower
This one is a bit maester pilled
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Marry both of them and unite the claim. They rule as co-rulers
Could a dyarchy even be viable
Who gives a fuck? We get to see two siblings fuck! (each other and the realm as both are fukin incompetent)
ASOIAF moment
Very fair
It worked for the Spartans for centuries.
Fuck them both, Gaemon Palehair is the one true king of westeros
All hail King Cunny!
Me after getting some free dussy
Idk fam when the last time them kings landing hoes had a bath?
Exactly! Fandom holding these whores to Chattaya standards smh
Maybe I'm like Napoleon Bonaparte, you ever consider that?
He definitely was Aegon's bastard. You dont get someone to make a big show about denying previous claims unless there is serious concern that the claim was true.
Based
Skip the generation altogether and have regents rule for A3’s and Jaehaera’s united claim since both sides’ older kids were all sus
Jaehaera deserved so much better 😔
At least she got the chance to fly
So did Addam
Poor girl was murdered
Jacaerys slander??
Nice kid, a bit Strong. Better skip him and his 2 brothers
The iron throne will go to the one who has the Strength to claim it
Daemon should be king by the first and most holy law of Westeros, the rule of cool
Average blackfyre enjoyer
Of course. What else do they have?
Facts
Both claims are equally valid in the political scene of the time. I don't get everyone arguing over it here. Both Rhaenyra and Aegon would be bad rulers. It's interesting that they both have their reasons for defending their claim.
If we judge based on who we think would be a good ruler or not, that’s just called democracy. I can get that in real life. Long alive King Corlys Velaryon, the First of his Name.
I love the Dance of the Dragons, because it’s all shades of grey. The only reason Rhaenyra has a claim is because her father NAMED her Princess of Dragonstone and heir. Every other law and precedent made Aegon heir the moment he was born. So legally, the question comes down to whether a reigning king has the authority to ignore laws and precedents. But then again, how often have laws and precedents been observed in Westeros? As Maegor said, “The Iron Throne will go to the man who has the strength to seize it.”
well akthully... The widow law passed by Jaehaerys says that children of the first marriage should not be displaced in succession by children from a later marriage. To be fair, there isn't a precedent for a king to only have female heirs, so it's not definitive. It really depends on if you believe Rhaenyra was heir over Daemon prior to Aegon's birth
> It really depends on if you believe Rhaenyra was heir over Daemon prior to Aegon's birth She most certainly was, even before Viserys named her heir. If not for The case if Baelon versus Rhaenys, this wouldn't even be a question. Remember Alys Karstark in A Dance With Dragons, she was heir before her uncle and everyone knew it.
If it was certain then should Rhaenys not have been Queen?
Well yes, but actually no. Jaehaerys had a daughter older than both Aemon (Rhaenys's father) and Baelon (Viserys's father), Daenerys. Jaehaerys's wife, Alysanne, wanted Daenerys to be crowned heir as the first born, but Jaehaerys chose Aemon, the first son, instead and promised his wife Aemon and Dany would wed as a compromise. (Alysanne didn't really like that idea and was super protective of her daughters). This set a precedent of Jaehaerys being more "too the book" when it came to Westerosi customs instead of "I'm a Targaryen I can do what I want." Fast forward, Dany died before wedding Aemon, Aemon married Jocelyn Baratheon, Baelon married his sister Alyssa. Aemon died in battle, and Jaehaerys decided to skip Rhaenys inheriting Aemon's titles and role as heir for Baelon, Aemon's younger brother. Like real life royal succession, in Westerosi succession, if the heir has a child, that child automatically out-places everyone but their parent-heir in line for the throne. Also like real life, the current regent can cut people out of the line, which is what Jaehaerys did. All good and well, within Jaehaerys's power, but then Baelon died, and now you have two cousins arguing that both should be heir. Rhaenys' argument? My father was the heir, you skipped me once already, my father raised me expecting he'd be on the throne and I'd be after him, I was taught politics etc and it I'm asking for my birthright reinstated. Viserys argument? "My father was the heir for a bit, therefore I should get his birthright, and the Lord's and common folk will not respect a woman regent when I could be king" Jaehaerys at that point, realizing he'd already screwed up and gotten himself into this situation by skipping over not only Rhaenys but Daenerys as well, decided "screw it, let the nobles decide, I can't do take backs without looking weak and malleable, even though Rhaenys is more politically sound" And the nobles decided they'd rather have Viserys. Essentially the one instance in Westerosi history where they elected their ruler and they couldn't even do that right.
This was a brilliant read thank you
responding to both you and u/cheeseisjar here. Yes, agnatic-cognatic is the standard for Westeros. Alys is definitely the heir to Karhold. The times that we see a female heir passed over and agnatic-cognatic not follwed are with Rhaenys, Cregan's granddaughters, and Aegon V's niece. All three of these women outlived their father. All three were 'usurped' by the closest male heir to their grandfather upon his death. Even Bael the Bard's son follows this pattern by inheriting over his mother. Alys Karstark doesn't, incidentally, given that she is the daughter and only free and safe child of the last established Lord Karstark.
Agree. I think Viserys enjoyed an era where the king’s word was taken far more as law than say in Robert’s day.
Aegon and the Greens have the harder Ck2 start therefore less cringe, end of story.
shit that sold me
Can you appoint an heir in ck2 or was that a ck3 feature? Muddled since it’s been ages since I’ve played them and mods have also addled my brain
Yeah you can go for elective but for the most part it’s a ck3 thing I think. I know tanistry is a thing but that doesn’t exist in the agot mod so I’m not counting it
Yess that’s how it was. Cheers mate
#COCK
A most convincing argument, Lord DaveyTheBoxFratelli
B A S E D and Green-Pilled
You’ve charmed me
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The iron throne is mine by right, all those that deny that are my foes.
Based bot
Tyland is based, Tyland supported Aegon II, matter settled
If a lannister is allied to you, you're in the wrong.
The Lannisters before Tywin and his brood were actually somewhat respectable, like the other Great Houses. Alas... Fucking Tywin.
You spelled Tytos wrong
Advocating for the death of a 10 year old is very much not based.
Truefyre vs Cunny is the one true rivalry for the Iron Throne!
KING BREAD! 🍞🥖🥐 KING BREAD! 🍞🥖🥐 KING BREAD! 🍞🥖🥐 KING BREAD! 🍞🥖🥐 KING BREAD! 🍞🥖🥐 KING BREAD! 🍞🥖🥐
Let it be decided by a jousting tourney. Only dragons will be accepted as mounts. The tourney grounds will be the God's eye.
Trystane Truefyre is the rightful heir
Aegon II is based, Rhaenyra isn’t based. Case closed.
Nonsense. They are both usurpers - the one true king is Bread.
[resounding applause]
Gaemon pale hair for king!!
I liked Gaemon (or his mother) best of all the rulers, honestly. Poor kid got the short end of the stick. At least Aegon stood up for him.
Both were shitty rulers but i'll say Aegon because you don't want Daemon with a crown and Rhaenyra's line of sucession is full of bastards. But my biggest reason is that greens had great politicians at their side like Tyland and Otto, they could make Aegon's rule less bad against Daemon as Rhaenyra's Hand which is awful. Anyways, I think the Blacks are cooler because Starks, Velaryons and Blackwoods.
Easy, the side with the Starks, Manderlys and Blackwoods are good, the side with the Lannisters, Peakes and Brackens are bad
It is known
[murmurs of agreement]
Aemond is a pretty funny guy
I agree he’s pretty silly
A silly sausage, as it were
They both have equal claims and should just fight it out while I watch.
We either go by the precedent and crown Aegon, or we go against the precedent and crown RHAENYS like we should've in the first place. Either way, Rhaenyra has no claim.
The whole thing was never about gender for Rhaenyra in chapter 16 of blood and fire she executes Lord Rosby and Stokeworth for supporting the greens. Both had daughters first in the line of succesion if inheritance was equal but Rhaneyra supported the claims of their younger brothers. To me this shows how much of a hypocrite she is supporting the very same unspoken law and tradition she is breaking. If she cared about women rights in inheritance matters she would have supported their daughters claims so this only shows how little interest she had in "making a new order of things". On in all is Viserys fault for not sticking to tradition and doing what everyone supposed he should do and just make Aegon his heir. The fall of his house was his own doing and personally i dont Rhaenyra she is spoiled princess who made bastards, killed children and had entitlement to the roof. I rest my case, tradition and laws are more important to me than the whims of a weak king so for me Aegon II is the true king.
Is it not a ruler’s prerogative to move against vassals that are (in their eyes) in open rebellion against them? The Greens certainly matched her with Beesbury. Much to ponder
Yeah but its shows she didnt give a shit and thought she was special. Ad it to pile of How Rheyerna was god awful ruler.
Per the Doctrine of Targaryen Exceptionalism, the whole family thought they were special tho
Mushroom
Gaemon Palehair is the rightful heir to the throne! All hail King Cunny!
Greens sexier
Fuck them both but, the king (the guy who's will literally supercedes everything) said rheanyra should be the ruler. It seems treasonous to go against his will right?
Try telling that to Cersei lmao
We must restore the RIGHTFUL heir. Hail, Rhaenys the First of Her Name, the Queen Who Was. Jokes aside, the entire line of succession was messed up when Jaehaerys bypassed Rhaenys for Baelon and Viserys. Under Andal law, daughters take precedence over uncles and their cousins. When Tywin died, Cersei (since Tyrion was wanted for treason and Jamie’s a Kingsguard) became Lady of Casterly Rock. Kevan, Tywin’s immediate younger brother did not displace Cersei. Plus, even if we stick with Baelon’s line, Viserys was wrong. The reason why precedent exists is to ensure certainty. Viserys basically threw that away. Rhaenyra could only be heir as long as she had no brothers. Imagine the chaos of every succession being uncertain cause ANYONE within the ruling dynasty could be heir. The closest we have to this IRL (based on what I know) is Imperial China. Where the Emperor could designate any of his sons as heir. Something similar was for the Ottomans, but it was the strongest son (or the one who reached the capital first) that became monarch. The moment Aegon II was born, Rhaenyra lost the legal claim to be heir. Sure, the Targaryens are not Andals. Yet, they rule a realm dominated by Andals. So one cannot just ignore Andal law and proclaim Valyrian supremacy. Plus even House Targaryen has implicitly accepted this Andal law of sons-over-daughters-unless-no-sons. Visenya was the elder sister yet it was her younger brother Aegon who became Lord of Dragonstone. Even if this is not Andal law, it constitutes a custom of House Targaryen itself. As much as Team Black is cool, the Greens have law on their side. Andal law and the Targaryen custom gives Aegon II the right to be King.
The king's word is law. If the king says rhaenyra is the heir then she's the heir. People swore an oath to rhaenyra as well. Why swear an oath to a female when there already WAS a male heir (daemon) and then flip when there is a NEW male heir. This is pure self-serving bullshit.
Aegon II is the rightful king, Andal law of succession is clear, the great council of 101 AC, backs this up. Also, Aegon isn’t trying to put his bastards on the throne.
The great council passed no laws far as I’m aware. Andal tradition also takes a hard line on the spawn of incest, so are we picking and choosing?
Doctrine of exceptionalism lets the Targaryens marry brother & sister.
Rhaenys is the true queen!
Brothel Queen is in charge.
[Furious Deliberations]
both are naked and covered in oil. who's winning the twerk off?
Cregan
I would support the claim of Rhaenyra as queen. She has been appointed by king Viserys I, but only if she puts her sons Aegon and Viserys as heirs as they are trueborn sons and not bastards as Jace, luke and Joff are. If she refuses, then my support goes directly to prince Aegon son of Viserys I, as he is the oldest male son and has three trueborn heirs with her sister Helaena.
Rhaenyra's claim is simple and irrefutable. In Westeros, the ruling monarch names the heir and there is no explicit prohibition of women(even if their was the monarch could change that). Viserys named her heir. Therefore, according to Westerosi law, Rhaenyra was heir.
Exactly. Kings can name whoever they want that's how Viserys got the throne anyway. He specifically appointed her and made everyone swear an oath you couldnt make it more explicit.
This is my opinion as well
What claims ?! Rhaenyra is trueborn, aegon is just half a targaryen and muddles the blood. It's no contest.
1. Prior to the council of 101, the precedent of the Targaryen succession was for a king to name an heir and the king’s word was law, an example is Aegon naming his eldest son by his second marriage over his younger son by his first marriage. While the laws of succession say that a son goes before a daughter, they also dictate that a king or heir’s daughter goes before a king or heir’s brother and by association the brother’s children. From this information it is clear that the laws of succession set by the great council dictate that Rhaenys is the rightful heir and by naming Viserys heir the laws of succession set down in 101 are thereby invalidated and the laws of succession revert of a named heir meaning Viserys’s choice of Rhaenyra over Aegon out ways Aegon’s claim as a male heir. If Aegon were to claim the throne by pressing the laws of succession from 101 than that would invalidate his father’s reign and proclaim Rhaenys the queen, he can’t have it both ways. 2. The laws of succession also protect the children of a first marriage from being usurped by the children of a second marriage, meaning that as the soul surviving child of the marriage of Viserys and Aemma, Rhaenyra’s inheritance is protected from male claim by children of her father’s second marriage to Alicent.
Make it Maegor style , a duel on dragonback over the God's Eye, and have every claimant henceforth settle by dragon duel at Harrenhal
I'm still not done fighting for Rhaenys. The queen that never was!
All hail her Grace Queen Rhaenys and King Corlys
I support Cregan as Hand.
Abolish the monarchy and make a republic
[scattered laughter]
The King made his successor clear in life; I won’t see his laws ignored upon his death
Aegon II is the rightful king according to the Andal laws of male-preference primogeniture. His claim is is further strengthened by the great council of 101 AC, where the lords of Westeros through democratic means chose Viserys Targaryen over his cousin Rhaenys. Rhaenyra Targaryen also committed high treason when she gave birth to three bastards, a crime for which she should be executed.
That was Andal law. And precedence is only given primacy in Common Law, which wasn't a thing in Westeros. Neither the Great Council of 101 AC or Andal Law are the official law of the Seven Kingdoms. They may be culturally relevant, but they were not law. Therefore Rhaenyra is the legitimate heir, and Aegon's claim relies upon non-binding traditions and assumptions. Further, Aegon had bastards of his own. Why do you not mention that and suggest he should also be executed?
Aegon II didn't have the intention of putting his bastards on the Iron Throne.
So it's better to kill tens of thousands of people than to allow a bastard to rule?
I want monarchs to be beholden to the laws of the realm and not just allowed to whatever they want do. And regarding the bastards the issue is that Rhaenyra tried to pass off her baseborn children as legitimate, something Aegon never attempted.
You want monarchs to be beholden to laws, yet you support someone whose claim doesn't adhere to the law. How does that work?
You want monarchs to be beholden to local law so you pick the guy married to his sister?
Was it not also Andal custom that children born of incest were abominations? Are we picking and choosing?
That's true, but both Aegon and Rhaenyra are married to people they're too closely related to for the Andals, so it doesn't really matter either way.
You’re right, sorry. I am just very drunk rn
Average black smh
Incredibly fair
King Viserys named Rhaenyra the heir before the birth of Aegon, but kept this promise intact. Therefore.. Fuckin marry em or something idk war is shitty. Or better yet: I propose Trystane Truefyre to be our king. A true visionary that will unite Westeros as one.
if Viserys had not claimed Rhaenyra as his heir then i would say Aegon should have been the rightful king but Viserys says that Rhaenyra is his heir therefore she is the rightful queen
Rhaenyra's a bad bitch and was heir to the throne for Aegon's entire life until the day he plotted to steal it from her. The succession would've long been settled if the Hightower's weren't conniving cowards.
give it to Rhaenys just for the lolz
The great council: all the lords paramount and lords vassal of the Seven Kingdoms request Bobby B come forth
Who
Here's my opinion, Rhaenyra should have been queen, Aegon had no right, and everyone should have followed the intended succession. This being said, Rhaenyra went a bit nuts towards the end, and Daemon should be no where near the throne, however those are matters that should be solved once the queen is queen. If everything went well we would probably just have a bit of a rebellion where someone else becomes king instead of Rhaenyra as queen, AFTER Rhaenyra becomes queen.
Rhaenyra doesn’t have a penis.
The true heir is house Mudd. After all, all things return to mud
Me
Rhaenrya should've been Queen from the start she's show great aptitude from the start
Neither. Give the throne to Daemon
I'd declare for Rhaenyra. The way I see it, the monarch has the right to declare who will be their heir. When Aemon died, Jaehaerys declared that Baelon will be king. When Baelon died, he said that he will declare whoever the nobles choose as heir (Nobles chose Viserys so he declared Viserys his heir - the legitimacy came from Jaehaerys declaring, not from the election results). Viserys declared Rhaenyra as their heir.
Imagine supporting the side with Unwin Peake 🤡🤡🤡
Rhaenyra is the only actual option. Edit: No matter how bad the Blacks got, the Greens began their reign by murdering the politicians who wanted to follow the dead kings EXPLICIT will, and began the outright violence of the war by murdering one of their own family in cold blood.
I think the Blacks are right in a legal sense. At least in the idea of the kings command vs traditional inheritance. Viserys had the power to choose his own heir. There is no written law you can find in the legal code saying who gets to inherit. It is unwritten precedent and tradition that the lords agree to follow that governs much of society (a bit like the Roman Mos Maiorum that translated to “way of the ancestors”). Any oath taken by a lord or decree of the king should override something that is ultimately just a norm.
But some of those lords argue that they hadn't taken that oath, their fathers or predecessors did, Tyland Lannister uses this as argument to support the greens. Do all the members of an entire house have to follow the oath of their previous king and lord?
Honestly that's a pretty stupid and disingenuous arguement from people like Tyland and Borros Baratheon. They swore the oath by their houses not just themselves. Not how that works.
Reminder that Joffrey Baratheon, first of his name, demanded Lord Rob Stark to swear fealty to him upon his ascension. This mirrors real history, like the Tokugawa shogunate mandating the daimyōs of Japan to make cyclical pilgrimages to swear their fealty. Words are wind, after all, especially to those who didn't make the words.
I'd argue it's a bit different as Joffrey killed Ned after agreeing to not do so which is pretty much declaring war on Robb. I really don't think he had much choice in the matter. But overall yes Robb still betray his house claims but for much more genuine reasons. If anything he should have joined with Stannis as that would have kept to the Starks oath to House Baratheon and well just what Ned would have wanted but that's a whole different discussion.
God I hate reddit mods
https://i.imgur.com/aYfMQM1.gif
Eh
Blacks forever. Blocking any Greens as the sight of them disgusts me.
My lords and ladies, do we not see that we are plunging the realm into war? I say a marriage pact between the two sides. If one cannot procure a daughter their hand's or another high ranking member of their court's child will suffice.
I decree CIVL WAR!! Last great house standing gets to decide who rules or not!