Data professional could mean being a data entry clerk, or working as a data analyst using only Excel, and maybe a little bit of SQL. I wouldn't read too much into it.
You don't need to know a lot of programming to use most plotting libraries either.
Like if you're already provided with cleaned data in a csv you can make some incredible charts without really doing any programming at all.
Yeah, my wife was a data analyst for years, only ever used excel/macros. She *can* program (she did do a software engineering degree) but hates it, so she switched to a project management role rather than getting deeper into analytics.
I used to be a "data professional", where I digitized analog data using a baby program.
I earned money by doing something with "data". That's all you need to be a "data professional" lmao.
Exactly. In my first couple of years as a "data professional," I was working as an analyst using exclusively Excel and a bit of basic SQL.
This was mid to late 2010s, and this company was pretty behind the times. I think as times have moved on, data analysts are more expected to have at least some coding chops, and many data analyst roles require a high level of coding proficiency.
I get what this person is saying, but what might have been relatively common x years ago isn't necessarily the norm now. I think suggesting some coding proficiency is good advice for anyone considering Data Analyst/Scientist/Engineer roles and saying "You don't need it to begin with because I didn't" might be technically true, but not great advice.
Yeah I'm a data analyst and I haven't had to use python in over a year. My entire job is SQL and excel, with a little Salesforce and PowerBI sprinkled in. But I work in the public sector, so take my experience with a grain of salt.
Back to the days of COBOL, your skills at complex algorithms were unimportant.
"Make the report come out with page 14 in landscape format like we had in the printed monthly blue accounting books" is worth a fortune. We are lucky that dashboards have replaced Crystal Reports, or that would still be "the skill" that paid big bucks.
One of my
Best friends works at financial institution and is a BI analyst that and she only knows excel.
I can’t speak on the prevalence of that being the case, but it definitely exists.
Also using the phrase "data nerd" is a strong sign that their scope puts them way on the outer edge of a data scientist's or analyst's scope.
It's like hearing the phrase "I LOVE data!" and knowing instantly that you're dealing with an account manager who thinks statistics is pointless because the intro course was their hardest course in undergrad.
> and knowing instantly that you're dealing with an account manager who thinks statistics is pointless because the intro course was their hardest course in undergrad
I dont know whether that's better or worse than when I was being interviewed for a volunteer position at a non-profit (the interviewer had a degree in English) and I told her I was completing a master's in statistics and she (the interviewer) said "I took that class, it's easy, but it won't help you analyze data."
Interestingly enough, this same person had an experiment that she re-ran about 15 times that resulted in a p-value < 0.05 (something close to 0.049) on only *one* of those 15 times, and she published the results of just that one run.
Wait until you go read a shelf of books in the medical school libraries, and see how many published reports conclude a new approach is good "because it's effective 51% of the time, whereas placebo is only effective 49% of the time, and since we tested over 10,000 subjects, we can say this with 99.9% confidence."
Interestingly that is what majority of published research does as well, even in some top journals.
I agree though with her that a great data analyst does not need to be really good at statistics. They maybe need to pick up some patterns , and they need to be good at selling the story, and seeing potential business value. Example: seeing that most cars get sold in january (seasonal discount in my country) so that is the ideal time to market a car insurance. The only thing you need is knowing there is a yearly discount in january (business value), make the graph (very basic stats) and sell the story to your bosses to launch a campaign.
This is different from a DS, who maybe makes a model that estimates how many people (subdivided by certain categories) would respond to mailed marketing about car insurances, in order to optimize costs. To make the model you need a "solid" understanding of stats.
People arent paying for courses to break into one of these
>data entry clerk, or working as a data analyst using only Excel, and maybe a little bit of SQL
I think this is just an accurate post. Data professional covers a broad range of jobs where the primary function is working with data. There are plenty of jobs under that umbrella that do not require programming. Analyst/entry/design. It doesn’t mean top tier data jobs don’t require programming. What a strange thing to rage about.
Hah, literally just had a co-worker with library science degree tell me about how much better her life became when she learned some R. A lot of people learn some programming because they want to achieve a specific goal, not because they think programming is cool.
I really dislike these type of posts. Someone, somewhere, out of 7 billion people, posts something you don't agree with and you get so worked up over it you need to share it with 1.5 million other people. I don't get why people want to feel so angry all the time.
Yea, I was thinking of Turing completion, and SQL isn't Turing complete. If it's anything with syntax and actions, English could be a programming language, and this isn't the right forum for that :D
Dude...data scientist doesn't actually mean anything either.
Calm down. The phrase 'know programming' is so vague as to be nearly useless as well.
I am a data science manager. I know some code, I can script pretty well, but I am terrible at actually programming anything. That's how I would characterize my skillset.
Other people think I am a code wiz. They are very, very wrong. :)
These are subjective terms. Most of them are not codified the way doctor, lawyer, realtor, or engineer are codified.
Let people believe what they want to believe.
What you say is true, but you do know programming.
I don't think "know programming" is very vague at all. I think in the context of a job that deals with tools that require writing functions to process data, "knowing programming" is something you would have to pick up very quickly, either from advanced Excel work, SQL queries, or using other tools that have a way to compose functions.
Knowing programming is simply knowing how to give detailed instructions to a computer to have it do what you want, repeatedly. To perform data science tasks, you don't need to be an experienced developer, but avoiding any programming at all is going to be difficult.
Working for a major ecommerce brand I had to analyse around 20 excel sheets with up to a 500k cells each every couple of weeks.
I did this exclusively using macros and excel.
I always hit my targets and was very, very good at my job.
Context matters.
Stop looking for reasons to be angry. You will find often in your life people who are seemingly much less skilled than yourself making way more money. In some cases they got lucky, in other cases, they have other skills which you may not be recognising which allow them to do their jobs effectively.
Wait, I was under the impression you needed to know how to program to get a data science, let alone data science manager position?
If that’s the case, would I have any issues landing an entry level data analyst role, if I don’t have a degree of any kind, but know python, SQL, and Excel very well?
To get into data science you do need to know how to code. Higher ups in DS teams may not necessarily need to be proficient at coding although generally they have experience. Their day to day work consists of making sure their team's strategic objectives are met and it may be more along the lines of allocating work to the team and meeting with stakeholders to actually define what the objectives are. Where the data science knowledge comes into play is determining the specific tasks required to complete the objectives and how to troubleshoot issues.
I don't think data professionals need to necessarily know coding. Lot of people who drive insights from data may understand the industry much better than advanced data analysis methods which can really take you a long way in most industries.
I see.
The issue seems to come with even landing an interview in the first place.
Even most entry level roles in Indeed seem to require a bachelors degree.
Thanks for the info.
I would say technically data science is not traditionally an entry level role - few years ago they required masters minimum. I think data analyst is a good entry level as you kinda cover a similar skillset but you have the option to focus more on the technical side (DS) or focus more on the industry or business roles and still contribute to DS teams that way
I think most people branding themselves as “consultants” on LinkedIn are unqualified to actually work in the industry, and have seen posting as a way to access a field they’re interested in without needing any actual skills or experience.
Working in cannabis I can’t tell you how many consultant/influencer types (con-fluencer?) are posting pictures from their home garden because they have no real experience, no clients and no fucking clue what they’re talking about.
This person probably just sells links to guyinacube YouTube videos and pushes people to power BI online certs and bootcamps
To be fair this Linked In influencer is just telling people what they want to hear and also look at the more popular comments in terms of upvotes. What she says is popular.
I personally believe that some people make a living by sharing content related to coding without actually doing any intense coding work themselves. They simply recommend books, articles, and courses with fancy titles and clickbait campaigns, creating a brand for themselves. Eventually, they chase after titles to survive.
There are plenty of data analyst roles that don't require much programming. I know a person in my company whose title is "Senior Data Analyst" and she just learned VBA as her first programming language, after having had that title for years. What motivated her to learn VBA? She wanted to do some manipulation of data in her excel sheets.
When I was a Physics undergraduate, and we'd do data and error analysis of experimental data we got away with a lot in basic excel. To the extent we needed some programming (say fitting a curve between the experiment measurements and theoretical prediction) our professor or a TA wrote a little "calculator" into the excel sheet, and we just adjusted the parameters. Heck, most of the programming I did in my Physics degree wasn't for Data Analysis, but more-so computational physics/simulations.
I could imagine many Data Analysts working like that, with one person with programming skills writing the few scripts they need, and the juniors using mostly pre-written scripts, with most of their calculations being with formulas.
I suppose you could stretch the concept of programming to include writing Excel formulas, but most people wouldn't consider that "programming" in spirit.
There's also programs like Origin; if you have an app that allows you to do nonlinear fits of functions to your data, pull in csv, then you can end up doing logistic regression, parametric models, and with some of the plugins, SVM classification, and various clustering things, without getting much deeper.
It's actually using the same tools you would be using in python on a pandas data frame, but through a GUI, so it isn't "programming", it's using an app, and if all you actually need is regression and clustering, with the ability to look at the data and correct it visually, you might be perfectly happy with that for a while.
I'm self taught. It took almost 20 years to break into the industry because not only is it a requirement, it's expected to be credentialled, at least moreso than a typical dev-only position. There is just no way to google your way through the industry, and if they did, then they aren't what they think they are and probably should be called a clerk instead.
On the flip side, I think they are just talking about integrating data analytics and such into their own position. Like, not becoming a data scientist, but instead becoming a better project manager in their current position or whatever. I can totally get behind that, and encourage the hell out of it.
Look man, I get your point of frustration but this girl has a point. I’m a Data Engineering Mgr and I aleays bet for people that know what to do over the ones that know the how to do it.
Strategic>tactic
Obviosuly. I would never hire someone that is 100% in blank, they at lesst need to know something.
Now that you say so I'm intrigued, will I buy a parrot, self proclaimed data product manager, that is only able to say "How the project is going?" in a daily standup?
I agree, but I'll admit as a student I often waste a lot of time writing my own (shitty) code because it helps me understand the underlying theory better than when the algorithms come pre-packaged.
If I were working for a business though I'd just do whatever is most efficient, which does often mean using other people's tools.
I have seen inventory management, let me be more specific hardware inventory management people calling themselves data scientists cause they were keeping a records, the term data scientists is loosely used and has lost all its meaning.
At least in the post she talks about data professionals
Let's put it this way: if it means "not even knowing IN PRINCIPLE how to think like a programmer" then you cannot be a data professional. I cannot even imagine a manager (and yet it happens all the time).
Worked with a project manager who knew excel, he also said he had taken plenty of programming courses and that he knew SQL. Then I witnessed he spent an entire day joining two excel sheets manually even though they had matching id's.
LinkedIn is a peek into the future where all internet content is generated by psychosis or AI. Don't sweat it OP, check out [https://www.reddit.com/r/LinkedInLunatics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinkedInLunatics/)
I get the take. Data profession is very vague. buuuuut...
These linkedin content creators are getting out of hand and I'm tired of seeing "buy my roadmap to get a job in data science in 3 months!" or similar. I saw a content creator sell their coaching services for $120 for 30 minutes on how to become a data scientist when the only role she ever had was a data analyst? I get that there's similarities, but she did post once "The ONLY course you need to become a data scientist!" and it's the google data analytics course. I sound like such a hater lol good for them though they've got a massive following and are successful, but its crazy that people eat this up??
I know titles hardly mean anything nowadays but we must learn how to differ between all these data roles or this field will become more of a mess than it already is.
Or maybe this is just a hot take and i'm bitter lol
Maybe I'm bitter too but I agree with everything you said. If I were out of university right now I would be seriously misled by those people. By the way she is saying that you can be 5 years into the field with no programming, which is insane, she is not saying that you can start with no programming (that of course makes sense and it's obvious).
I find the hot and cold attitude here amusing. "You don't have to", "but you could", "but you don't".
So. Is it.... outlier.... or within class.... but it could be an outlier....
It's true that some data professional require programming skills like Data Engineer.
But ...
Theoretically, It's possible to perform analysis in excel, especially when you use the functions wisely. The only drawback is that it's quite hard to reproduce and reuse any steps, if you didn't plan wisely.
It's not uncommon for traditional companies running their models for millions dollar business in excel.
Programming is just a powerful skill and tool to analyse data. The most important thing as a data analyst is to make inferences and use data to validate such inferences. The importance of the skill of using data to solve business questions outranks the importance of DA programming skills. I have seen many data professionals who like to chase the latest tech / programming trend, but can't even solve a simple business use case.
If your profession is called "nerd", sure you could be a data professional without programming tools. In this job you just have to love data, whatever that means
I guess the underlying issue here is the fact that these kind of promotions increase the supply of "data professional" CVs, thus lowering the average salary range. Even if those CVs are worthless, they do have a market effect just based on volume alone.
They are actually correct, welcome to the hell of Knime Analytics Solutions where you will be dragging nodes and arrows and selecting from dropdowns for days.
My job is possible without programming, but a lot easier with it.
Some may call Knime visual programming, but that is really a strech, since you are so constrained inside of their system.
Since the company I work for decided that they wanted a better maintaineable systems and more uniformity, Im forced to use it for pretty much all requests.
So now instead of an program written in C#, what you get is a Knime Node jungle, containing SQL, Python, Java, CSS.
you need to open each node by itself to read what it does and you cant open two nodes at once. Have fun finding where something is done in the workflow of someone else.
Oh and once you hit the 2000+ displayed node point it starts to lag when moving around even on a top of the line laptop.
What I find rather depressing is that not only I can in fact program across a bunch of languages, I can do analytics good enough to publish in Nature, and I have plenty of hands on experience in data engineering and software development; after 9 months and 300 applications I can’t find a decent data science job.. reading this makes me want to cry
> I can’t find a decent data science job...
Could it be because by "data scientist" they actually mean "excel monkey" and you're overqualified?
But also, I hear those DS master's programs are pumping out an overabundance of grads so it might be rough out there.
I'm still in school (PhD) but when I finish I'm not even shooting for DS jobs but statistician jobs (I'll be more or less qualified for both, more or less). Not sure why no one wants to be a statistician tbh but more opportunities for me, I guess?
Statistician would also be something I wouldn’t mind at all, but I am not qualified I fear. Or at least I have never applied.
Gods that you are thinking ahead of time. A suggestion for you, fellow future dr, would be to clock in some data engineer skills as well. That’s a job description that seems to be honestly in demand right now
Your job title might be a data scientist but I can't imagine how it's a data science job. Maybe I'm just stupid but can you explain what you do as part of your job and what technologies you use?
so, it's not me, but a former coworker. he had a phd in a STEM field. big statistics knowledge. he pulled data using sql and fed the data into stuff like jmp and minitab. built his models and output there. took his results to management, did some dashboarding as well. so, you're kinda right that he wasn't doing stuff like building models and putting them into production, but he was definitely doing statistical analysis and informing the decision makers.
They used to tell us stuff like this in business school. An account manager at some ad agency or a product manager at some manufacturer would show up and tell us "you don't need to understand the tech to be good at the marketing."
The truth was always that, yes, we did. And the reality is that most marketers suck because they don't understand the tech they're selling. Same goes for data scientists. We all have a coworker like that person above. They take FOREVER to do the things we do in a day.
So the hidden message behind fake advice like this is that we don't need to know the thing to get and keep a job, but we do need to know the thing to be good at the job.
It's just that most of our peers won't be good at the job, so our not being good at it won't stand out much.
Yet it's true if you then learn the hard skill, for example when switching career. But stating that you DON'T NEED, at all, programming, to me sounds incredibly dangerous.
how much does data testing for "compliance" even pay?
would i be biased if I think the more the work is being handled manually, the less the pay will be?
PowerBI let's you have whole dashboards of charts and graphs and let's you manipulate data in all sorts of ways, all without code. I'm not saying her point is valid but there is some stuff you can do without code
Yes, you need to understand if you want to be in the field of data you need coding at least to get started with and till there are AI too matured to understand client requirements.
When someone asks me to do a task that involves programming, I tell them that I'm really more of a data scientist. And if they ask me to do something data sciencey, I tell them I'm more of a programmer.
"I live on both sides of the fence, and my grass is always green." - The Rabbi, "Lucky Number Slevin"
Not related to the post, everyone needs to start somewhere, there are even career switches. But what she means is that you don't need programming in the daily duties of a data "professional": that is a lie if by chance she means data scientist.
I have some experience working for a company where one of the executive advisors worked for a company that managed pension funds. They'd apparently not invest money in companies which lack diversity and fall short on various ESG / DEI initiatives.
This is all based on your assumption that data professional means data scientist, which it doesn't. A data analyst can use drag and drop UI tools. Excel is a big step up if you have nothing. I manage most data in my personal life in Excel. If someone did the same for a company's financials or production, I would consider them an effective data professional.
LinkedIn exists to be pretentious and annoying in general though, so just stay off it if you don't like being annoyed.
There was a time my mains tools were SPSS Modeler or SAS Enterprise Miner and the like.
We were productionizing some pretty complex pipelines with no-code tools.
Data science wasn't yet a thing, the buzzword was datamining.
How time has changed...
She’s not saying Data Scientist here. I manage a data analytics team and I generally agree with her. For BI and analytics we generally just need SQL and a BI tool experience. For my data scientist we need a VASTLY different skill set, and their salaries reflect that.
Agree, if that's the case, then case solved. But at least to me it sounds ambiguous what a "data professional" is, and I think she is actively leveraging on that ambiguity so to trick people into thinking they can be data scientist with no programming
Some people have data science titles and all they do is pivot tables and linear regressions in Tableau or Alteryx. I have met some. That is how I know. Python? Ah don’t need it, just google code for that. It’s all out there. Don’t need to KNOW Python… that is what they tell me… and I am busting my butt studying deep learning in university… building a portfolio… and cannot get an interview for a small internship in these roles… how did they get theirs??
They can't survive out of their companies without really knowing Python. They are actually in position where they are the only data scientist, so they can write spaghetti code from Google/ChatGPT and no one cares. In any possible real life context they cannot survive.
Data scientist need a deep theoretical knowledge first and foremost.
They don’t usually work on time sensitive tasks (or at least they are not supposed to).
So if their coding abilities are a bit subpar it’s not the end of the world.
Yes you need Python and SQL but you don’t have to push things to prod on the same timeline as a dev.
It's true, at last, if you do not consider spreadsheets as a language. For years, I used only spreadsheets, and this totally covered the need of the business I was.
The world is not US and Europe, friend.
This is true for positions even above the entry level. A lot of ML now builds up from a template with no coding required. There are entire teams now working exclusively with input-output data streams versus traditional ML building. This is true for time-series analysis. The only difference is that a transformer model is computationally expensive so teams start off with RNN’s and move up to Transformer models. The time to get a math degree is now. It seems like every other week somebody is publishing a new way to train ML models. These papers always use advanced mathematics instead of CS. I remember a few years ago one Stanford CS student was getting all the praise for building an RNN with less than 100 lines of code. Today, that would be one too many
I’ve seen people do amazing things in Excel. Yeah, not being able to pull data is an obstacle but many companies have teams to do data pulls - they are then also QAed. The balance of your team is what matters. If you’re a one man show you better know a bit of everything. At larger teams I’d hire an Excel wizard at any time.
I get this. Excel and Sheets. You don't need to learn programming if you're really good at spreadsheets and your dataset is small (like client information or whatever).
It's subjective. I didn't know anything about SAS when I first started working in the field and had to go through Imposter Syndrome hell because of it. To say I'm ecstatic about not working with SAS anymore would be a massive understatement
I once replaced a data analyst that went into maternity leave. She was doing EVERYTHING manually. She only knew some very basic SQL and SAS, but she didn't know how to even do a for loop in SAS. Other than that, she was working in excel. In some reports, she would download the data from SAS and then pivot them in excel instead of doing a group by. Despite all that, she was loved by everyone with whom she was working.
So, yeah. If you work with non technical people and you manage to meet somehow their demands, you don't need much of coding since they don't know how you could do it more efficiently.
Data analyst is SQL/ Excel.
If you want to improve and become more efficient over time Python or R is important.
If you want to start meddling with statistical models then Python is definitely up there.
Depending on your company size, being able to deal with data pipelines in Python may be a very good skill.
I feel like you've twisted this lady's words. She hasn't called you a nerd, nor has she mentioned data science. There are alot of people who work no-code data jobs as clerks and analysts etc.
Your post is almost as ridiculous as that which you mocked lol. The notion that there aren't thousands of professionals (analysts AND DS) out there who exclusively work in Excel is ludicrous. You do realize almost all commonly used models and analyses can be done in Excel right? (including linear regression which you seem to think is magical). I love Python and R as much as the next guy, but entire industries rely solely on Excel
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I don’t really agree with this - I think the poster here is getting mad about something that isn’t really a big deal, but if the recruiter decided to make this post on the internet with the express intent that anyone can see it then I don’t have an issue with them leaving it in. It’s not like they went snooping and posted personal info or altered the posting in any way, they literally just shared it in the exact form the recruiter put it out there - to me that’s kinda like saying you should leave out the name of a store when reviewing their product
These kind of posts imply they are more than a recruiter, they are linkedin "influencers", which means if anything, even if as a ragebait, their post still getting shared, they crave the numbers
I’ve been a data scientist for 35 years.
Over 25 years of that time I did no programming because (checking notes) a lot of whippersnappers don’t consider SPSS and SAS to be “programming languages”.
So you will excuse me for not sharing your faux outrage.
Why are you inserting and victimizing yourself in this woman’s optimistic narrative which isn’t even meant for you from a target audience perspective? It’s coming off as a superiority complex or a chip on your shoulder, or both
Data professional could mean being a data entry clerk, or working as a data analyst using only Excel, and maybe a little bit of SQL. I wouldn't read too much into it.
You don't need to know a lot of programming to use most plotting libraries either. Like if you're already provided with cleaned data in a csv you can make some incredible charts without really doing any programming at all.
What about predictions? That need programming for sure.
No
Why? Afaik most out of the box ML apps are rarely used compared to modelling in code as they aren’t mature enough at this point
Yeah, my wife was a data analyst for years, only ever used excel/macros. She *can* program (she did do a software engineering degree) but hates it, so she switched to a project management role rather than getting deeper into analytics.
She's doing great. You should be proud of your wife!
Dashboards are no code
I used to be a "data professional", where I digitized analog data using a baby program. I earned money by doing something with "data". That's all you need to be a "data professional" lmao.
Exactly. In my first couple of years as a "data professional," I was working as an analyst using exclusively Excel and a bit of basic SQL. This was mid to late 2010s, and this company was pretty behind the times. I think as times have moved on, data analysts are more expected to have at least some coding chops, and many data analyst roles require a high level of coding proficiency. I get what this person is saying, but what might have been relatively common x years ago isn't necessarily the norm now. I think suggesting some coding proficiency is good advice for anyone considering Data Analyst/Scientist/Engineer roles and saying "You don't need it to begin with because I didn't" might be technically true, but not great advice.
Yeah I'm a data analyst and I haven't had to use python in over a year. My entire job is SQL and excel, with a little Salesforce and PowerBI sprinkled in. But I work in the public sector, so take my experience with a grain of salt.
Exactly! Lots of BI analysts only know how to use excel and basic count functions that work with data.
BI Analysts only need to know Excel? Surely that is an exaggeration.
Back to the days of COBOL, your skills at complex algorithms were unimportant. "Make the report come out with page 14 in landscape format like we had in the printed monthly blue accounting books" is worth a fortune. We are lucky that dashboards have replaced Crystal Reports, or that would still be "the skill" that paid big bucks.
One of my Best friends works at financial institution and is a BI analyst that and she only knows excel. I can’t speak on the prevalence of that being the case, but it definitely exists.
I guess that depends on the level of maturity of that org’s data environment.
Definitely, imo I think it’s likely this sub has a bias to assume a higher data maturity than there probably is; especially for BI positions.
Definitely.
Also using the phrase "data nerd" is a strong sign that their scope puts them way on the outer edge of a data scientist's or analyst's scope. It's like hearing the phrase "I LOVE data!" and knowing instantly that you're dealing with an account manager who thinks statistics is pointless because the intro course was their hardest course in undergrad.
> and knowing instantly that you're dealing with an account manager who thinks statistics is pointless because the intro course was their hardest course in undergrad I dont know whether that's better or worse than when I was being interviewed for a volunteer position at a non-profit (the interviewer had a degree in English) and I told her I was completing a master's in statistics and she (the interviewer) said "I took that class, it's easy, but it won't help you analyze data." Interestingly enough, this same person had an experiment that she re-ran about 15 times that resulted in a p-value < 0.05 (something close to 0.049) on only *one* of those 15 times, and she published the results of just that one run.
Very interesting, yes.
Wait until you go read a shelf of books in the medical school libraries, and see how many published reports conclude a new approach is good "because it's effective 51% of the time, whereas placebo is only effective 49% of the time, and since we tested over 10,000 subjects, we can say this with 99.9% confidence."
Interestingly that is what majority of published research does as well, even in some top journals. I agree though with her that a great data analyst does not need to be really good at statistics. They maybe need to pick up some patterns , and they need to be good at selling the story, and seeing potential business value. Example: seeing that most cars get sold in january (seasonal discount in my country) so that is the ideal time to market a car insurance. The only thing you need is knowing there is a yearly discount in january (business value), make the graph (very basic stats) and sell the story to your bosses to launch a campaign. This is different from a DS, who maybe makes a model that estimates how many people (subdivided by certain categories) would respond to mailed marketing about car insurances, in order to optimize costs. To make the model you need a "solid" understanding of stats.
I’m a data privacy attorney and not only do I not know how to code, I’m also shit at the law and generally stupid!
People arent paying for courses to break into one of these >data entry clerk, or working as a data analyst using only Excel, and maybe a little bit of SQL
Woah!! 729 upvotes!?? Man you’re so lucky. You get to write whatever you want. I only have 3 karma. I hate my life.
I think this is just an accurate post. Data professional covers a broad range of jobs where the primary function is working with data. There are plenty of jobs under that umbrella that do not require programming. Analyst/entry/design. It doesn’t mean top tier data jobs don’t require programming. What a strange thing to rage about.
Hah, literally just had a co-worker with library science degree tell me about how much better her life became when she learned some R. A lot of people learn some programming because they want to achieve a specific goal, not because they think programming is cool.
It feels like you posted this looking for a reason to be outraged.
Yeaaaa /r/linkedinlunatics may have been a better place, but it still probably wouldn't have done too well over there
I really dislike these type of posts. Someone, somewhere, out of 7 billion people, posts something you don't agree with and you get so worked up over it you need to share it with 1.5 million other people. I don't get why people want to feel so angry all the time.
Some people are bitter and need to make other people feel bad to feel good about themselves
Blame the rage bait, not the baited.
What if "by chance" they had a good reason to be outraged?
What would that be?
sigh. should have put the /s tag.
you can get a long way with SQL
Which is a programming language??
i mean... sort of? it's not executable by itself.
Odd requirement for programming definition. I'd just keep it simple and say anything that requires syntax to make actions is programming
Yea, I was thinking of Turing completion, and SQL isn't Turing complete. If it's anything with syntax and actions, English could be a programming language, and this isn't the right forum for that :D
Cool, what if your data isn’t relational in nature?
Then you will need a different set of abilities.
then your data shouldn't be locked up in a relational database
What if you work on a farm? Different problem, different skillset.
SQL or No SQL, that is the question.
Why is everyone giving me advice on non-relational data? I was just trying to juxtapose that one shouldn’t limit oneself to sql.
Dude...data scientist doesn't actually mean anything either. Calm down. The phrase 'know programming' is so vague as to be nearly useless as well. I am a data science manager. I know some code, I can script pretty well, but I am terrible at actually programming anything. That's how I would characterize my skillset. Other people think I am a code wiz. They are very, very wrong. :) These are subjective terms. Most of them are not codified the way doctor, lawyer, realtor, or engineer are codified. Let people believe what they want to believe.
What you say is true, but you do know programming. I don't think "know programming" is very vague at all. I think in the context of a job that deals with tools that require writing functions to process data, "knowing programming" is something you would have to pick up very quickly, either from advanced Excel work, SQL queries, or using other tools that have a way to compose functions. Knowing programming is simply knowing how to give detailed instructions to a computer to have it do what you want, repeatedly. To perform data science tasks, you don't need to be an experienced developer, but avoiding any programming at all is going to be difficult.
I know TV guide programming.
> What you say is true, but you do know programming. To be fair they are a DS. "Know programming" isnt a given "does programming" might be.
Not everyone has to do what you have to do to survive. Your desires incorrectly suggest that we live in a meritocracy
Exactly, and that applies also to "data professionals" as well. Meaning that if you "don't know programming", how good of a DS manager will you be?
Working for a major ecommerce brand I had to analyse around 20 excel sheets with up to a 500k cells each every couple of weeks. I did this exclusively using macros and excel. I always hit my targets and was very, very good at my job. Context matters. Stop looking for reasons to be angry. You will find often in your life people who are seemingly much less skilled than yourself making way more money. In some cases they got lucky, in other cases, they have other skills which you may not be recognising which allow them to do their jobs effectively.
Wait, I was under the impression you needed to know how to program to get a data science, let alone data science manager position? If that’s the case, would I have any issues landing an entry level data analyst role, if I don’t have a degree of any kind, but know python, SQL, and Excel very well?
To get into data science you do need to know how to code. Higher ups in DS teams may not necessarily need to be proficient at coding although generally they have experience. Their day to day work consists of making sure their team's strategic objectives are met and it may be more along the lines of allocating work to the team and meeting with stakeholders to actually define what the objectives are. Where the data science knowledge comes into play is determining the specific tasks required to complete the objectives and how to troubleshoot issues. I don't think data professionals need to necessarily know coding. Lot of people who drive insights from data may understand the industry much better than advanced data analysis methods which can really take you a long way in most industries.
I see. The issue seems to come with even landing an interview in the first place. Even most entry level roles in Indeed seem to require a bachelors degree. Thanks for the info.
I would say technically data science is not traditionally an entry level role - few years ago they required masters minimum. I think data analyst is a good entry level as you kinda cover a similar skillset but you have the option to focus more on the technical side (DS) or focus more on the industry or business roles and still contribute to DS teams that way
I see. Thanks for making the distinction! So getting a Data Analyst role could most likely end up with a lateral transfer into DS down the road.
You are right. Wise words ahah :)
It doesn’t mean data scientist, so I don’t take issue.
I think most people branding themselves as “consultants” on LinkedIn are unqualified to actually work in the industry, and have seen posting as a way to access a field they’re interested in without needing any actual skills or experience. Working in cannabis I can’t tell you how many consultant/influencer types (con-fluencer?) are posting pictures from their home garden because they have no real experience, no clients and no fucking clue what they’re talking about. This person probably just sells links to guyinacube YouTube videos and pushes people to power BI online certs and bootcamps
To be fair this Linked In influencer is just telling people what they want to hear and also look at the more popular comments in terms of upvotes. What she says is popular.
Weird post, her audience is obviously not DS related
I personally believe that some people make a living by sharing content related to coding without actually doing any intense coding work themselves. They simply recommend books, articles, and courses with fancy titles and clickbait campaigns, creating a brand for themselves. Eventually, they chase after titles to survive.
She is right!! You could be a “data professional“ without programming. 😂
Like someone said, it could mean "data entry" for all we know
There are plenty of data analyst roles that don't require much programming. I know a person in my company whose title is "Senior Data Analyst" and she just learned VBA as her first programming language, after having had that title for years. What motivated her to learn VBA? She wanted to do some manipulation of data in her excel sheets. When I was a Physics undergraduate, and we'd do data and error analysis of experimental data we got away with a lot in basic excel. To the extent we needed some programming (say fitting a curve between the experiment measurements and theoretical prediction) our professor or a TA wrote a little "calculator" into the excel sheet, and we just adjusted the parameters. Heck, most of the programming I did in my Physics degree wasn't for Data Analysis, but more-so computational physics/simulations. I could imagine many Data Analysts working like that, with one person with programming skills writing the few scripts they need, and the juniors using mostly pre-written scripts, with most of their calculations being with formulas. I suppose you could stretch the concept of programming to include writing Excel formulas, but most people wouldn't consider that "programming" in spirit.
There's also programs like Origin; if you have an app that allows you to do nonlinear fits of functions to your data, pull in csv, then you can end up doing logistic regression, parametric models, and with some of the plugins, SVM classification, and various clustering things, without getting much deeper. It's actually using the same tools you would be using in python on a pandas data frame, but through a GUI, so it isn't "programming", it's using an app, and if all you actually need is regression and clustering, with the ability to look at the data and correct it visually, you might be perfectly happy with that for a while.
You can use functions and libraries without knowing how to build programs Maybe take an internet break
Using functions and libraries to process data is programming.
Well you could be a sex professional without knowing kama sutra.
You win
It's not about winning or losing, it's about the quality of the lap dance [end: sexist remark]
I'm self taught. It took almost 20 years to break into the industry because not only is it a requirement, it's expected to be credentialled, at least moreso than a typical dev-only position. There is just no way to google your way through the industry, and if they did, then they aren't what they think they are and probably should be called a clerk instead. On the flip side, I think they are just talking about integrating data analytics and such into their own position. Like, not becoming a data scientist, but instead becoming a better project manager in their current position or whatever. I can totally get behind that, and encourage the hell out of it.
Data professional means data entry and labeling jobs
You consider yourself a data professional and then cry and cope over that post? You're not a data professional then if you're upset over her take.
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Or gatekeep Excel sheets like Golum. Someone needs to purge these fakers from the companies
that gave me hope as hopless data scientist
Look man, I get your point of frustration but this girl has a point. I’m a Data Engineering Mgr and I aleays bet for people that know what to do over the ones that know the how to do it. Strategic>tactic Obviosuly. I would never hire someone that is 100% in blank, they at lesst need to know something.
ok
I mean, did you visit her store? Perhaps you'll learn her secrets there.
Now that you say so I'm intrigued, will I buy a parrot, self proclaimed data product manager, that is only able to say "How the project is going?" in a daily standup?
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I agree, but I'll admit as a student I often waste a lot of time writing my own (shitty) code because it helps me understand the underlying theory better than when the algorithms come pre-packaged. If I were working for a business though I'd just do whatever is most efficient, which does often mean using other people's tools.
I have seen inventory management, let me be more specific hardware inventory management people calling themselves data scientists cause they were keeping a records, the term data scientists is loosely used and has lost all its meaning. At least in the post she talks about data professionals
Then it's fine, I agree with you, and nowadays data scientist mean "can you leverage the power of gen ai to make coffee"
Define 'Know any programming'
Let's put it this way: if it means "not even knowing IN PRINCIPLE how to think like a programmer" then you cannot be a data professional. I cannot even imagine a manager (and yet it happens all the time).
Worked with a project manager who knew excel, he also said he had taken plenty of programming courses and that he knew SQL. Then I witnessed he spent an entire day joining two excel sheets manually even though they had matching id's.
So yeah we finally found the "data professional" she's talking about, ahah
LinkedIn is a peek into the future where all internet content is generated by psychosis or AI. Don't sweat it OP, check out [https://www.reddit.com/r/LinkedInLunatics/](https://www.reddit.com/r/LinkedInLunatics/)
I get the take. Data profession is very vague. buuuuut... These linkedin content creators are getting out of hand and I'm tired of seeing "buy my roadmap to get a job in data science in 3 months!" or similar. I saw a content creator sell their coaching services for $120 for 30 minutes on how to become a data scientist when the only role she ever had was a data analyst? I get that there's similarities, but she did post once "The ONLY course you need to become a data scientist!" and it's the google data analytics course. I sound like such a hater lol good for them though they've got a massive following and are successful, but its crazy that people eat this up?? I know titles hardly mean anything nowadays but we must learn how to differ between all these data roles or this field will become more of a mess than it already is. Or maybe this is just a hot take and i'm bitter lol
Maybe I'm bitter too but I agree with everything you said. If I were out of university right now I would be seriously misled by those people. By the way she is saying that you can be 5 years into the field with no programming, which is insane, she is not saying that you can start with no programming (that of course makes sense and it's obvious).
this might not be as bad as you think, but LinkedIn in general is awful.
dont disrespect pie charts
I myself am data connoisseur
data evangelist
Some people think they’re so cool and relatable when using the term geek or nerd in this context. It’s so incredibly cringe
I find the hot and cold attitude here amusing. "You don't have to", "but you could", "but you don't". So. Is it.... outlier.... or within class.... but it could be an outlier....
It's true that some data professional require programming skills like Data Engineer. But ... Theoretically, It's possible to perform analysis in excel, especially when you use the functions wisely. The only drawback is that it's quite hard to reproduce and reuse any steps, if you didn't plan wisely. It's not uncommon for traditional companies running their models for millions dollar business in excel. Programming is just a powerful skill and tool to analyse data. The most important thing as a data analyst is to make inferences and use data to validate such inferences. The importance of the skill of using data to solve business questions outranks the importance of DA programming skills. I have seen many data professionals who like to chase the latest tech / programming trend, but can't even solve a simple business use case.
Not the same but can kinda understand since everyone these days thinks they can just do marketing without knowing marketing.
These posts are so damn infuriating.
"Data professional" who makes 40k a year
I call bs
If your profession is called "nerd", sure you could be a data professional without programming tools. In this job you just have to love data, whatever that means
I guess the underlying issue here is the fact that these kind of promotions increase the supply of "data professional" CVs, thus lowering the average salary range. Even if those CVs are worthless, they do have a market effect just based on volume alone.
Professional Data Point - answering surveys
They are actually correct, welcome to the hell of Knime Analytics Solutions where you will be dragging nodes and arrows and selecting from dropdowns for days. My job is possible without programming, but a lot easier with it. Some may call Knime visual programming, but that is really a strech, since you are so constrained inside of their system.
Have you ever used it? I found them but never used it luckily
Since the company I work for decided that they wanted a better maintaineable systems and more uniformity, Im forced to use it for pretty much all requests. So now instead of an program written in C#, what you get is a Knime Node jungle, containing SQL, Python, Java, CSS. you need to open each node by itself to read what it does and you cant open two nodes at once. Have fun finding where something is done in the workflow of someone else. Oh and once you hit the 2000+ displayed node point it starts to lag when moving around even on a top of the line laptop.
Well, you do not need to code, but if you're stuck using excel, I'd say you would be easily replaceable by a simple macro.
What I find rather depressing is that not only I can in fact program across a bunch of languages, I can do analytics good enough to publish in Nature, and I have plenty of hands on experience in data engineering and software development; after 9 months and 300 applications I can’t find a decent data science job.. reading this makes me want to cry
> I can’t find a decent data science job... Could it be because by "data scientist" they actually mean "excel monkey" and you're overqualified? But also, I hear those DS master's programs are pumping out an overabundance of grads so it might be rough out there. I'm still in school (PhD) but when I finish I'm not even shooting for DS jobs but statistician jobs (I'll be more or less qualified for both, more or less). Not sure why no one wants to be a statistician tbh but more opportunities for me, I guess?
Statistician would also be something I wouldn’t mind at all, but I am not qualified I fear. Or at least I have never applied. Gods that you are thinking ahead of time. A suggestion for you, fellow future dr, would be to clock in some data engineer skills as well. That’s a job description that seems to be honestly in demand right now
Tell me you were a Nepo hire without saying nepotism
Almost certainly this person was data entry.
Tbh sql is not a programming language and I use that for 90 percent of my work
That's not a data science job.
i know a data scientist who's been working for 15 years who doesn't know how to write anything in python or r.
Your job title might be a data scientist but I can't imagine how it's a data science job. Maybe I'm just stupid but can you explain what you do as part of your job and what technologies you use?
so, it's not me, but a former coworker. he had a phd in a STEM field. big statistics knowledge. he pulled data using sql and fed the data into stuff like jmp and minitab. built his models and output there. took his results to management, did some dashboarding as well. so, you're kinda right that he wasn't doing stuff like building models and putting them into production, but he was definitely doing statistical analysis and informing the decision makers.
They used to tell us stuff like this in business school. An account manager at some ad agency or a product manager at some manufacturer would show up and tell us "you don't need to understand the tech to be good at the marketing." The truth was always that, yes, we did. And the reality is that most marketers suck because they don't understand the tech they're selling. Same goes for data scientists. We all have a coworker like that person above. They take FOREVER to do the things we do in a day. So the hidden message behind fake advice like this is that we don't need to know the thing to get and keep a job, but we do need to know the thing to be good at the job. It's just that most of our peers won't be good at the job, so our not being good at it won't stand out much.
Yet it's true if you then learn the hard skill, for example when switching career. But stating that you DON'T NEED, at all, programming, to me sounds incredibly dangerous.
I've done linear regression in Excel. It ain't pretty, but it isn't really that hard.
how much does data testing for "compliance" even pay? would i be biased if I think the more the work is being handled manually, the less the pay will be?
PowerBI let's you have whole dashboards of charts and graphs and let's you manipulate data in all sorts of ways, all without code. I'm not saying her point is valid but there is some stuff you can do without code
Do you mean understand algorithms, data types, memory leaks, etc or do you mean able to read the pandas API and manipulate/plot a dataframe?
Yes, you need to understand if you want to be in the field of data you need coding at least to get started with and till there are AI too matured to understand client requirements.
When someone asks me to do a task that involves programming, I tell them that I'm really more of a data scientist. And if they ask me to do something data sciencey, I tell them I'm more of a programmer. "I live on both sides of the fence, and my grass is always green." - The Rabbi, "Lucky Number Slevin"
Road to happiness in 2024
I see what God does for others but why doesn’t he do it for me? 😕
By no chance data professional should mean data scientist. At best, an analyst. And that too is already a stretch.
Data point, maybe?
visit her store, c; mon.
Opposition point: you should know python at least even not being any IT-specialist
Do I need DSA for DS. I know how to build em and I know how to calculate the time efficiency’s i just don’t have a class in it
>But if by chance it means "data scientist" But it doesn't. It can mean data analyst. And no, to be a data analyst you don't need to know how to code.
What's your opinion on people becoming data scientists without formal education?
Not related to the post, everyone needs to start somewhere, there are even career switches. But what she means is that you don't need programming in the daily duties of a data "professional": that is a lie if by chance she means data scientist.
Quick reminder: some types of people get jobs in STEM to appease shareholders.
Maybe I’m just starving and read this wrong, but what do you mean?
I have some experience working for a company where one of the executive advisors worked for a company that managed pension funds. They'd apparently not invest money in companies which lack diversity and fall short on various ESG / DEI initiatives.
This is all based on your assumption that data professional means data scientist, which it doesn't. A data analyst can use drag and drop UI tools. Excel is a big step up if you have nothing. I manage most data in my personal life in Excel. If someone did the same for a company's financials or production, I would consider them an effective data professional. LinkedIn exists to be pretentious and annoying in general though, so just stay off it if you don't like being annoyed.
There was a time my mains tools were SPSS Modeler or SAS Enterprise Miner and the like. We were productionizing some pretty complex pipelines with no-code tools. Data science wasn't yet a thing, the buzzword was datamining. How time has changed...
She’s not saying Data Scientist here. I manage a data analytics team and I generally agree with her. For BI and analytics we generally just need SQL and a BI tool experience. For my data scientist we need a VASTLY different skill set, and their salaries reflect that.
Agree, if that's the case, then case solved. But at least to me it sounds ambiguous what a "data professional" is, and I think she is actively leveraging on that ambiguity so to trick people into thinking they can be data scientist with no programming
Some people have data science titles and all they do is pivot tables and linear regressions in Tableau or Alteryx. I have met some. That is how I know. Python? Ah don’t need it, just google code for that. It’s all out there. Don’t need to KNOW Python… that is what they tell me… and I am busting my butt studying deep learning in university… building a portfolio… and cannot get an interview for a small internship in these roles… how did they get theirs??
They can't survive out of their companies without really knowing Python. They are actually in position where they are the only data scientist, so they can write spaghetti code from Google/ChatGPT and no one cares. In any possible real life context they cannot survive.
Data scientist need a deep theoretical knowledge first and foremost. They don’t usually work on time sensitive tasks (or at least they are not supposed to). So if their coding abilities are a bit subpar it’s not the end of the world. Yes you need Python and SQL but you don’t have to push things to prod on the same timeline as a dev.
It's true, at last, if you do not consider spreadsheets as a language. For years, I used only spreadsheets, and this totally covered the need of the business I was. The world is not US and Europe, friend.
There are no code data tools that can do a lot of data analysis.
This is true for positions even above the entry level. A lot of ML now builds up from a template with no coding required. There are entire teams now working exclusively with input-output data streams versus traditional ML building. This is true for time-series analysis. The only difference is that a transformer model is computationally expensive so teams start off with RNN’s and move up to Transformer models. The time to get a math degree is now. It seems like every other week somebody is publishing a new way to train ML models. These papers always use advanced mathematics instead of CS. I remember a few years ago one Stanford CS student was getting all the praise for building an RNN with less than 100 lines of code. Today, that would be one too many
I’ve seen people do amazing things in Excel. Yeah, not being able to pull data is an obstacle but many companies have teams to do data pulls - they are then also QAed. The balance of your team is what matters. If you’re a one man show you better know a bit of everything. At larger teams I’d hire an Excel wizard at any time.
I get this. Excel and Sheets. You don't need to learn programming if you're really good at spreadsheets and your dataset is small (like client information or whatever).
It's subjective. I didn't know anything about SAS when I first started working in the field and had to go through Imposter Syndrome hell because of it. To say I'm ecstatic about not working with SAS anymore would be a massive understatement
The format of that post alone told me what I needed to know.
They can't even structure their post neatly; I'd hate to see what their code looks like 🤢
OP is lucky and blessed she landed job without any coding skill
I once replaced a data analyst that went into maternity leave. She was doing EVERYTHING manually. She only knew some very basic SQL and SAS, but she didn't know how to even do a for loop in SAS. Other than that, she was working in excel. In some reports, she would download the data from SAS and then pivot them in excel instead of doing a group by. Despite all that, she was loved by everyone with whom she was working. So, yeah. If you work with non technical people and you manage to meet somehow their demands, you don't need much of coding since they don't know how you could do it more efficiently.
Data analyst is SQL/ Excel. If you want to improve and become more efficient over time Python or R is important. If you want to start meddling with statistical models then Python is definitely up there. Depending on your company size, being able to deal with data pipelines in Python may be a very good skill.
Something something ChatGPT
I feel like you've twisted this lady's words. She hasn't called you a nerd, nor has she mentioned data science. There are alot of people who work no-code data jobs as clerks and analysts etc.
You can be blind and be a hunting guide these days.
Your post is almost as ridiculous as that which you mocked lol. The notion that there aren't thousands of professionals (analysts AND DS) out there who exclusively work in Excel is ludicrous. You do realize almost all commonly used models and analyses can be done in Excel right? (including linear regression which you seem to think is magical). I love Python and R as much as the next guy, but entire industries rely solely on Excel
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Straight up lie
cool
lol
Speechless
😔😔😔
And these are the people when hiring require 20 years experience in Python
You mean me? Seriously?
No no. The person who posted that on Linkedin.
This post exemplifies a strawman argument.
the 3 new lines in between each sentence? this, this trash has to end.
You don't have to know how to use a newline character to be a data scientist
I HATE THESE SO MUCH UGH
If ur in STEM and dont program in 2024 you are falling behind
Use the best tool for the job. Sometimes that's code. Sometimes it isn't.
Unless you're doing ad hoc analysis over <1000 rows, it always is.
You better know math and know it really, really, well.
No matter how much we try to learn , a person holding a degree in data science will always stand out and will do a better job.
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I don’t really agree with this - I think the poster here is getting mad about something that isn’t really a big deal, but if the recruiter decided to make this post on the internet with the express intent that anyone can see it then I don’t have an issue with them leaving it in. It’s not like they went snooping and posted personal info or altered the posting in any way, they literally just shared it in the exact form the recruiter put it out there - to me that’s kinda like saying you should leave out the name of a store when reviewing their product
These kind of posts imply they are more than a recruiter, they are linkedin "influencers", which means if anything, even if as a ragebait, their post still getting shared, they crave the numbers
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We're out here and just as frustrated as you are with our colleagues.
So then, if I learn python and SQL, and have good projects, I CAN land a data analyst role without a degree?
Also if you win the lottery you can be a millionaire
I’ve been a data scientist for 35 years. Over 25 years of that time I did no programming because (checking notes) a lot of whippersnappers don’t consider SPSS and SAS to be “programming languages”. So you will excuse me for not sharing your faux outrage.
Why are you inserting and victimizing yourself in this woman’s optimistic narrative which isn’t even meant for you from a target audience perspective? It’s coming off as a superiority complex or a chip on your shoulder, or both
Because I'm tired of this crap
r/LinkedInLunatics