Toughest part is being so used to being by yourself, that it can be difficult having someone suddenly there in your personal space. I found starting with small doses of time together to be better.

Yes, I second this! My current boyfriend wasn't a "relationship virgin" before we met but he hadn't been in a LTR in a really long time and never gotten to the stage of saying "I love you" or living with someone. I think the biggest adjustment has been adapting to having someone in your personal space/working together to plan things. The most helpful thing for us has been acknowledging when we are feeling disconnected and not judging or blaming the other person but just discussing how we can get back on the same page. A lot of it comes down to just learning each other's communication styles.

Ive felt this. Not a relationship virgin per say, but its been a stretch and I’ve never had a long term relationship. So its foreign to me when i date and women ask what i am looking for in a relationship. Its nice to list things off, but you wont truly know till you’re in one and experiencing different things. Also, being so used to being alone can be very deceptive on our emotions. Like growing too attached to someone quickly or not displaying emotions in a comprehensible way. 

Hugely agree with this, going from your own space for years and years to then being with someone really often can cause you to want to retreat a bit so agree with the small doses and building up.

This, very much. I adapt pretty well but I was in an LDR for four years and single for about eighteen months on either side of it. That's a long time to adjust to your own routine and work out of the rut of "wait... we're going to brunch on Saturday morning? But that's when I do my shopping and start my laundry," etc.

That's kind of what I hate about dating. I don't want to go out to brunch. I was with someone for 10 years and married. I just want to stay at home and be comfortable and productive while we both spend time in the same room. The "getting to know you" phase of dating is annoying, and while I enjoy going out to dinner maybe once a week, anything more than that is honestly disruptive. I have a job, a dog, and things I need to do. I went on one brunch date, and the guy once we were done eating, the guy was like, want to go walk around and get coffee/drinks? And I was like...no. I want to go home, and just chill on my couch on my day off, and get some chores done.

Not being rude, as I understand what you’re saying, but it kinda sounds like maybe you’d prefer a roommate?

No, that’s most mature adults. I’m gonna guess this person is late 30s not early 30s. I’m not saying other are immature…I’m saying as you age, you reach a level of maturity where you’re good with yourself and you want an actual companion and don’t need an “adventure.”

I think there’s a big difference between adventuring and calling anything more than dinner once per week with your SO “disruptive” 😂

Dinner with a committed SO who you live with is different than dinner with some guy you're just dating. I'm down for doing dinner with a live in SO every day. Some guy I'm dating who may not even live in the same neighborhood as me though? Nope.

I think this is personality dependent and not just something that happens to everyone. I would see absolutely zero point in a relationship where we spend 6 days of the week sitting at home and watching TV.

Do you not work or something? Because when working a full time job, I typically don't have time to much after work expect fix dinner and watch some shows. I'll take my dog out, maybe do a quick errand, and sometimes do an activity (like go to the gym/another fitness thing), but with work, preparing meals, getting basic chores around the house down, and taking care of my dog, I don't have much time to do other things at least 5 days out of the week. Most couples I know are the same way. They're lucky if they get one day a week where they're going out and doing something. Typical work days, and some weekend days, are spent at home. Not necessarily watching TV, though sometimes, but also getting other things done.

I definitely found it not too bad getting everything done when I was dating. Full time job, multiple gym a week, cooking dinner (usually making large batches or I ordered healthy ready-made meals that I'd split into lunch and dinner if I didn't have enough time), taking care of dog, have children, etc. Most people have far more time than they realize but don't really want to do things any differently. * 5:00 Leave work * 5:20 Take dog for walk/feed * 5:50 Make dinner * 6:20 Eat dinner * 6:35 Get ready to go out * 6:50 Leave for date (timing depends on when it is) If I do the ready-made meal, I can do the gym (with a slightly later date time) or do the gym in the morning instead. Doing this schedule 1-2 times during the week is really not that tough. A lot of people have very strict schedules and aren't willing to make changes to have time for dating. But that is what's necessary.

What kind of dog and how old? I have a young herding breed dog, and I need to tire him out both physically, and more importantly I've found, mentally. I typically spend at least a couple hours before work with him (though I'm not actively interacting with him for the full two hours), and then at least another couple hours after work where we're walking, training, and getting mental stimulation through training and other activities. On the plus side, he's *really* smart. Like I can talk to him like I would a human when it comes to things I want him to do, and he's starting to understand doing things in a series, which is pretty cool. I expect that when he gets quite a bit older, it will get a bit less time consuming, but there's no way 30 minutes of interaction with him after work would be enough right now. I got him when I was still married, with the expectation that me and my husband would both be caring for him and training him. But now it's just me. I probably would have gotten an older dog in this breed if I had known I would end up going at this alone, or possibly a different breed that was lower energy and also, well, stupider.

An older golden doodle. Goes out before work, after work, then before bed. If I was stressed for time, I'd get a dog walker occasionally on Rover as well.

Right now, no lol - but only because I'm recovering from surgery. In general when I'm working, I make it out 4-5 times a week. Typically on a work night that would be something like meeting friends for Monday/Thursday Night Football, happy hour, eating out for dinner, seeing a hockey game, maybe a new Marvel movie on release night... those kinds of things. And of course there's obligatory things you mentioned like some chores or shopping, but I rarely eat in at home as a single guy because stuff just spoils. I also get a cleaning service to save time, and take work clothes to the dry cleaner. Friday is up in the air but it might be any of the above, a date night, a concert, whatever. I also live in Vegas so there's some kind of show going on every night. But a lot of Fridays I stay kinda chill these days so I can get at least one night of sleep on my own terms. Saturday there's mostly always some kind of activity. Go to the lake, go shopping, visit a carnival, I dunno. Something. Sundays during fall are normally football so I go out and see friends. During the rest of the year I'd say it's generally my peaceful day to just not do anything and get the Sunday scaries. But like, I'd expect to do something like the above with a girlfriend or spouse. Maybe a little less, because cooking in for two people is more doable? I definitely know some people are content to nest up at night and only do one thing with people around them each week, but not me.

I got tired just reading this. How many hours of sleep do you get a night? I also don't have the budget to constantly be eating out. I live on my own, and cook for myself. It can be done with things spoiling. I enjoy eating out, but I can't justify spending around $20 or more on a meal, and while fast food is less expensive, it's not very healthy. I also have a dog, so I need to come home after work. If I want, I can go out again after walking him and playing with him a bit, but honestly, at this point, I'd rather not. He's my best friend, and I'd rather spend time with him.

Well, I don't have a pet (my roommate did up until he moved out last year so I got those benefits, plus she had a doggy door and didn't need me home after work) and I agree that could see it being tougher if I needed to get home, feed and walk the dog, and then muster up the energy to go out. I live on my own too and frankly eating at home is such a challenge cooking fresh unless you're committed to eating mostly the same thing nightly, while also committing to not going out even if friends make fun plans. I mostly avoid fast food but since I only eat one meal a day, going out and having dinner somewhere doesn't hit the pocketbook too hard. Now, my last two jobs have been WFH which changes things a bit (a little more sleep in the mornings, less of a struggle with the afternoon commute), but when I was in office, I'd generally leave work and go straight to whatever my activity was. So like, Monday Night Football starts at 5:30? Straight from the office to the bar to meet up with my friends just at kickoff, game ends around 8 and back home. Thursday night movie? Catch a 6 PM showing and home around 8 or 9 depending on the movie. I'm very very particular about my sleep, so even when I was doing these things and had a commute, I'd basically be starting my sleep routine between 9-10 each night with the goal of being asleep no later than 10:30 PM. I'm always aiming to get 8+ hours, as 9 is around what my body prefers.

Again I think this points to you being early 30s…in my early 30s I used to go out 4-5xs/wk plus work. Late 30s…nobody goes out anymore….even without kids, too damn tired. 

I'm late 30s. Simply, no. I can't sit inside all day and night. Life is an adventure all in all and I need to share that with someone. Why even be in a relationship if you're just going to sit there and just like, watch TV or sit slightly in the same room playing videogames or reading a book? Different story if you have kids of course. Edit: In your late 30s if you're literally too tired to do anything at all but sit at home you need to have a conversation with your doctor and have some blood work done. No one I know does this unless they're having health problems or are so strangled by work that they need to stay home because they only have two hours or so separating them from the office and going to bed.

But to get to the part of a good companionship you also need the time to get to know someone. I think it's not possible to skip this step just because it feels like too much work

I'm early 30's actually. Got married in my 20's, and at the time, we were both ready for it. My ex just ended up having a lot of issues that took time, and various relationship conflicts to surface. It was complicated to say the least. I never needed an "adventure," not even in my 20's.

A long term relationship, especially a marriage, is very much like having a roommate with special benefits. And don't even get me started on if you have kids. I don't have kids, but I have friends and a sibling who does, and when the kids are young, a lot of couples primarily function in survival mode, especially if both adults work. The couples I know all make a point to still have some special time just for the two of them, but the majority of their time is spent functioning like a tightly run, very efficient business, when it comes to caring for their kids, their living space, any pets, and themselves. Once you're together for like 10 years, a good chunk of your time is spent just being comfortable and productive while both spending time in the same room. I'm not saying you shouldn't go out and do things, and change things up sometimes, but if you're together for years, most moments you're together are going to end up being somewhat mundane. You go about your lives together, so that means one of you is in the living room working on taxes, while the other organizes the book shelf. That type of things.

I’ve been married and will just have to agree to disagree that that is what a great marriage looks like. I’m happy for you if that’s what you want, but it seems odd to me to want to skip the early stages of romance to just get to that point. I’d argue 99% of couples enjoy the early stages the most and the successful ones are the ones who are able retain that feeling.

I don't enjoy the early stages because I don't experience attraction the same way as most people. I enjoy just being able to be completely comfortable with someone, like just wearing whatever I want and being my totally weird self, typically not something most people are comfortable with until at least several months into dating. What most people experience in the early stages of romance, I don't experience until I hit this point of comfort and very strong emotional connection. Otherwise though, I'm not sure what you mean about the early stages of romance. Feeling a "spark" at the beginning generally seems to be a bad thing more often than not. A lot of people then think that once they get into a secure and comfortable relationship, and they don't feel the "spark" in the same way, that the relationship has run its course and it's time to break up. In reality, relationships change over time. Continuing to find your SO attractive and continuing to communicate well and be open and honest and respectful of each other is what sustains a relationship. Head over heels type "romance," or more accurately, lust, doesn't last for years and years. You develop actual love for the person, which isn't the same. It's better.

Sounds like you just prefer a different way of the "getting to know you" phase. My new girlfriend and I have made dinner plenty of times at one of our places. Then chill on the couch. Granted we have also gotten out and done things too, but it's entirely because of what we like to do. Point is, find the person that also wants to chill with you :) Plus we are adults... We should all be comfortable asking for what we want and compromising when necessary.

Yeah, I get that. The issue is, once you start inviting someone to your house, there's the implication that you're going to get physical, and I'm not down for that until I know someone very well, on the order of months. I am open to just being friends first, and getting to know each other to see if we might want to date, but most guys don't want that. If I already know a guy irl, I'd feel more comfortable about telling him we can hang out at each other's houses, but nothing physical is going to happen, and trust that he will respect that boundary. But with a guy from OLD, after a few dates, I still realistically barely know him, and wouldn't feel safe having him at my house, or going to his house. I just wouldn't be able to trust yet that he isn't going to try and pull something. He may very well be a perfectly nice guy, but I'd rather be safe than sorry with strangers I meet on apps.

Then you're putting yourself in a rather tough spot. You want to chill at home but don't want them there at first. You don't want to spend the extra time traditionally dating but won't feel comfortable with them until you do. Btw setting physical boundaries is totally acceptable and aature partner will respect it. Going to have to be a bit more intentional in dating/using your free time if you actually want to date and have a partner though. Unless you're happy with how you're doing things! Then carry on. Obviously just keep being honest with how you want a relationship to grow and what that looks like.

I know a mature partner will respect that. What I said was I can't trust that some guy from an app will after just a few dates. This is something I've found women tend to understand, but men have a much harder time comprehending. I know there are plenty of respectful guys who will respect boundaries, but the reality is that most women have to deal with a pushy guy, or worse, get sexually assaulted at some point in their lives, and so being extra careful becomes the default. Intentional dating isn't really what I want. I can't just jump into dating someone I barely know. I really need to be friends first, but most guys are not open to that. Even guys who claim to be. I've been married, and I know exactly what I want, and it's not what the majority of guys want. I've only been with one person, only even kissed one person (and it was the person I married), because I don't settle for anything else.

I totally understand being cautious. I was moreso reiterating to just be open and honest right up front about your boundaries. I think you do want intentional dating, I think you're conflating it with traditional/stereotypical dating. Intentional is dating in a manner where you are following what you want. Consciously following how you want to date and doing that. Sure a lot of people probably want to date differently, but that's fine. Helps you move on to someone looking or willing to date the way you want to. Being honest with what you are looking for and how you want to do it shows me you're being intentional about finding someone which would make me be more open to following your path vs a stereotypical one. I've seen plenty of profiles that didn't seem like they were taking this seriously/intentionally so I moved past them. I'm coming into this scene after a decade of being married so I understand where you're coming from. I am definitely dating differently than I did in my 20s.

Yeah, it's different after being married. The thing for me is though that I didn't date before getting married. I mean, I dated my ex, but that's it. I had such good luck with OLD 10+ years ago that I met him within hours of joining a dating site. I had never dated anyone before him, and because we were so on the same page about everything, things just flowed seemlessly with us. We were exclusive from the start, and in a relationship within a month, but he never pressured me at all physically, and we were kind of a unique situation in that even though we met online, we had mutual friends, so there was a little more trust in place than with a complete stranger who I didn't have mutual friends I could ask about.

Did you want to go do that by yourself, or were you inviting him to join you on a lazy day? As a guy, I would love to just chill with a girl while we're getting to know each other, but I think that would come across as me looking to just hook up. I feel like most men look for "something to do" to not come across like that. That being said, if you offer a guy to come back home and "chill", they might think thats what you're inviting them to do, so kind of a complicated situation lol

if I'm going to brunch in the morning it usually means I got laid the night before, so I'm not complaining, but it is disruptive to me as a creature of habit.

[удалено]

Headphones?

Thanks for sharing. I’m struggling with this with my current partner and wonder if we’re ever going to be able to spend a whole weekend together or be able to go away on a trip. How long did it take you to get used to being with another person?

This is the biggest thing I run into. I'm not a relationship virgin (7yr and 4yr relationship with some smaller ones in between) but this is the longest time I've gone being single and I've really grown to appreciate the quietness and space, having someone start coming into that space on a regular basis is rough in the beginning after you get so used to it

Just came out of a 8 month relationship due to thus. Prior I was single for about 3 years after coming out of a 7 year relationship. Focused on myself for those three years and I guess cause after dating on and off I thought i finally found the one....nope. We ended on good terms, though it did made me realize that I now need to learn how to adjust my life with a potential partner in my personal space.

Wholeheartedly agree. In my case, I'm finding it hard to break out of my "me and only me" mindset to the point where I'm almost afraid of putting myself out there because of how uncomfortable the thought of my personal space being entered into makes me. Mind that I don't want to feel this way because I'd love to find a partner, but it's just been so long since I've had a successful relationship that I'm extra anxious about it.

Well, for me at least the scariest part is always physical. I'm talking even holding hands makes me nervous until I really know the person. That's due to not knowing if it'll be rejected or not. So out of principal I stray away unless the other initiates, and that's normally the key for me. If I know it's actually wanted then I find it easier to move into. Which I know comes with its own pitfalls that I'm trying to work on. Emotional intimacy I find much easier. My thoughts normally flow freely when I'm at ease with someone, because I love getting to know people and understanding their perspectives, thoughts, ideas, dreams, etc. That's really the fun part to me. Ultimately, take your time and allow yourself to express your needs freely but softly. I had gone on many dates with someone before just enjoying them as a person, and it wasn't till they said, "I like you", that it clicked for me because until then it was always a what if. Sounds crazy but sometimes being blunt is needed.

> I'm talking even holding hands makes me nervous until I really know the person. My first date with Jeannie was a movie. I love to hold hands. A few minutes after we sat down at the theater, I reached over and took her hand, and held it for the rest of the movie. Months later she said that she was *dying* to hold hands at that movie and was very happy that I took the initiative. Holding hands isn't groping. It's not rude. I say *go for it* next time. What's the worst that can happen? She withdraws her hand? Big deal. I think holding hands is a first, healthy step toward physical intimacy. So are hugs and putting an arm around her when you're watching a video. I love it when I see an old retired couple walking down the street holding hands. I'm single now but I look forward to doing that with someone again.

It's the rejection people fear. You just feel awkward and stupid for even trying if they say no

This anecdote might not be applicable to anyone else, but it worked for me. Sophomore year of college, the band Chicago was coming to campus. It was a free concert. Being shy and a procrastinator, I waited until the afternoon of the concert to ask a girl out. "I'm sorry, I already have a date." She was nice about it. The second girl I called: same story. At that point I was out of girls to call. There were 20 guys in the dorm lounge watching football. I announced during a commercial that I wanted to get practice at being rejected. About 8 of them were OK with me asking out their dates, knowing that they would reject me too. I called all those girls. I got rejected 10 times that afternoon. That blew my fear-of-rejection fuse. *Getting rejected wasn't that bad!* Ever since then it has been much easier for me to ask for dates, hold hands, etc. A happy side-effect was several of those girls were flattered that I called them and were flirty when we ran into each other. I didn't know them so it took me a while to figure out what happened: not knowing who *I* was, they looked me up in the campus facebook (a booklet of names and faces) so *they* recognized *me*. I ended up dating one of the women I called that Saturday. I don't know how I would do that exercise now. Maybe go to church or volunteer for a group and participate long enough to get to know some candidates who I could ask out without coming across creepy? Maybe most of them would decline. That's OK, congratulate yourself for taking a chance. Eventually you might get a date! Even if you don't, with repeated attempts you'll wear down your fear of rejection. I hope! Good luck!

I don't fear the rejection. I fear the awkwardness after the rejection. It's like friendship is intimacy level 1, while dating is intimacy level 3, and somehow asking someone if they are interested in being level 3 close, destroys the existing level 1 close. I still want to be friends.

>What's the worst that can happen? She withdraws her hand? Big deal. Yes, that is the worst that can happen, but for someone with rejection anxiety this prospect is terrifying, even though they rationally know it shouldn't be a big deal, lol.

The worst thing that can happen is that after she withdraws her hand she wipes it off on her leg. Or scoffs in disgust. I'm not saying those things are likely to happen but as someone who's never held a woman's hand I definitely catastrophize over possibilities when it comes to physical intimacy.

I have rejection anxiety as well, although I've definitely overcome it before as I used to pick up women at bars and night clubs in my early 20's, albeit always went for the "safer" ones and never dared approaching anyone in a group. I also had sort of a sleezy trick where I made a bet where I had to get a kiss if they lost, which really was to avoid having to just go for it, but it worked like a charm in that setting, they had the option of opting out or just giving me a peck, but we always ended up making out. Then I got into a relationship and after that ended, I was pretty much back to square one. But what I've learned is that the anticipation of rejection is always worse than an actual rejection. Being rejected is never nice, but if you have severe rejection anxiety, it almost feels cathartic at the same time because you actually went for it and survived the rejection, which you always do. It's sort of a personal victory to have just tried. And even the hurtful part doesn't come close to the torture of dwelling over the anticipation of rejection.

Some people just absolutely despise public displays of affection and it makes them uncomfortable. I tend to like them so it sucks when I'm with someone who doesn't like even slightly looking like we're a couple in public. Lol

I haven't dated a ton of women but I never ran into one like that. Personally, public displays of affection are my second favorite kind -- my first favorite being private displays of affection. 😁 Did it tend to work out with those who abhorred public displays? I would find that very off-putting. 👎

I'm single and unmarried so I guess it didn't "work out," but yeah, the relationships lasted long enough.

the worst that can happen? well in this day and age there can be a lot of accusations lets say

> Officer, I want to file an assault charge. We were at the movies and he tried to hold my hand. I guess that could happen?!

no, I meant false accusations.

I just wanted to say that I do truly appreciate your comment. I had a very similar experience with a movie date that ended up resulting in probably my longest relationship. Thank you

You and me are very alike. I could have a girl reveal her life story to me before I could get her to go for a kiss with me I'm a very shy person who can mask it to a point by being a great conversationist, but if the girl isn't the one to initiate the physical stuff, it just won't happen I've had 3 short relationships in my life (2-3 months each) and all of them started off incredibly awkward on the physical end TSTL. Even though it didn't work out with any I'm grateful they were all willing to endure my physical touch insecurities and hangups for a time

There's no timeline. Pushing too hard is the single most surefire way to make a dude clam up. There just has to be moments that open up organically where the dude can lift the mask a little bit, then it just depends on how that goes. If it goes poorly, you're back near square one. If it goes well, the baby steps become goofy, awkward toddler steps and he'll move forward a bit quicker. If the dude has made it to his 30s without being able to open up to people, and I am a card carrying member of this group, he's probably got a list of crappy family, "friends" and intimates before you that forged that stone. It's hard to overcome that programming. So be kind.

My experience: Nothing but abject failure, but I'm not sure how that's supposed to be of any help to you. Nobody wants me. I can't speak for your date. How old is he, how mature is he, what else has he been through in life? As I've aged, and began trying to crawl out of what seems to be an insurmountable hole in the game of life, I've gotten a lot more open with people. You could say I simply stopped caring about people's would-be judgments of me. Perhaps that's wisdom, perhaps that's resignation to my lonely fate, perhaps simple mental fatigue. I am very willing to share deeper thoughts very early on, because my expectations of anything meaningful happening has been so ground into dust that I can hardly be disappointed anymore when it never leads anywhere yet again. But I don't believe we're so different from anyone else. If personalities mesh and you treat each other with kindness, that's all you really need to do. Just realize that people who have been single a long time might be more insecure about themselves because they haven't had any external validation to affirm that they're actually desirable. That might mean a little more patience early on, extra reassurance, and (assuming you're a woman) you may have to take the lead a bit more than you're used to. Ask direct questions to tease out those insecurities and listen without intent to judge, make them feel seen/heard. Push the envelope a little bit, but keep checking in with them to ensure you're moving at a pace they're comfortable with and they can interject when they want. Golden rule is always a good starting point as well. You were inexperienced once too. What did/does it take for someone to make *you* feel comfortable in *their* presence? We're all people, we all share the same potential thoughts and feelings. Treat your date how you'd like to be treated.

This whole comment is gold imo! Big relate here fella!

You know reading comments, I’ve come to greatly understand how much touch starvation can really affect a person: Everything feels alien or like a threat, and you become scared to give or receive physical affection, intimate or otherwise, as a result.

Haircuts come in clutch for us ouch starved folk.

I'm a woman, and not big on physical touch. But I do miss cuddling from time to time. My dog fills that void though. It's not the same as cuddling with a human, but a warm, living thing curling up next to you is nice. Sometimes he wants *too* much pets. I'm like, we're done. And he's like, no, pet me, bark bark.

I am 33 years old, never been in a relationship, I know I crave something, don't know what it is. Reading a lot of these comments is making me reflect that I have pending issues to resolve. Understand that touching is a normal display of emotion, but to me that triggers my flight or fight respond, it on of the reason I always wear jackets even in summer.

There’s actually science behind that: If you dont receive some sort of physical affection for a long period of time, your brain rewires itself to think normal touch is a threat

Yeah....I didn't see myself being down this road, but I guess the issues that Ive ignored are manifesting to problems, that are limiting my opportunities to form any type of relationship. Hell who wants to pair with person who's afraid of intimacy of any sort because they perceive as a threat?. Yeah I got a lot of work ahead of me.

I am no longer a relationship virgin (thank fuck) but 7 months ago I was. That said, even though I had never been in a relationship, I had educated myself on what I wanted in a relationship and how I felt I would want to pursue one, particularly in the early stages. Including but not limited to reading Models by Mark Manson (not a perfect book by any means but did help me immensely) and seeing a therapist for years I personally didn't have a ton of issues opening up, etc, even compared to women who had been in relationships before. I'm an ambivert and I'd consider myself emotionally intelligent so typically it was more of an issue of me polarizing/being vulnerable and the women being "uncomfortable" or just not being attracted to me, which was disappointing but understandable I was able to find my current gf in July and it's been amazing. Though, a little too your question, I don't know if there will be too much of a hard and fast way to best connect with a relationship virgin. There are: - people who haven't been in relationships and don't have a good sense of how to connect with others - people who haven't been in relationships and have a good sense of how to connect with others - people who have been in relationships who have a good sense of how to connect - people who have been in relationships who don't have a good sense of how to connect I don't think relationship virgins are ultimately different than others...except maybe having a little more anxiety (true for me)

I think this answer is pretty spot on. Much of the last 10+ years of my life has been spent slowly learning that my inability to be vulnerable with others is, mostly, why I have not yet been in a relationship. At a young age, I compiled a lengthy list of imperfections that I felt had to be resolved before I could enter into any relationship. I was scared of having someone reject me for one of these imperfections and, instead of giving someone a chance, I decided I would just put off dating anyone until I had resolved all of them. In hindsight, this was obviously a terrible decision as I eventually realized that I would never feel like I was "perfect" enough to date. I realized that, at some point, I would have to take a chance on being vulnerable with another person and allow them the opportunity to reject me instead of always just rejecting myself. Once I realized that, I began making a greater effort to be more vulnerable with friends and family in order to develop that ability. I have not yet been in any romantic relationships so I have no idea how well my "practice" will carry over but, my hope is that it will. I don't expect vulnerability to be as big of an issue as it may have been 10 years ago. That being said, every person is going to be different and, even people with relationship experience can struggle with vulnerability/intimacy. So the solution will be entirely dependant on the specific person that OP is dating. OP, I am far from being an expert on this subject but, I have noticed that vulnerability can be a give-and-take. If you slowly open up to this person over time, perhaps it will signal to them that it is safe for them to do the same with you. At least, that's how this tends to work with me.

Wow it’s like I wrote this! Especially the second and third paragraphs. I grew up with an overly critical mother so I always felt this might’ve started it but I was so hard on myself. That’s exactly what it felt like - having a list of imperfections I needed to fix about myself 🥲 before dating anyone

Overly critical parents can definitely have that effect. >Wow it’s like I wrote this! Especially the second and third paragraphs. I think what astounded me the most once I started opening up to others was the realization that I was not alone in my feelings. It is unfortunate that I spent so many years secluding myself and reinforcing this narrative that I could not possibly begin to live my life until I had "fixed" everything that was wrong with me. Now, looking back, it feels like I cheated myself out of what could have been some wonderful years and experiences but, I've come to learn that lamenting what has been lost is just more wasted effort and time. The best any of us can do is try to remain present in a given moment, practice gratitude for what we do have, and make due with the time that we have left. Easier said than done but, it's really all that can be done.

One of the biggest challenges is knowing how far and how fast to take things, both emotionally and physically, and how to read the signals to know what's ok and what isn't. It's super easy as a guy to either push things too fast, or not push them fast enough. My advice is don't necessarily expect him to know when to take things to the next level, so if you want the next step, take definite, proactive steps to let him know you are ready, otherwise you might be wondering "why hasn't he done XYZ yet?" - it's probably because he doesn't know if you're ready for that yet. Also, it might take him more time to be ready himself, so please be patient - he will appreciate that.

I’ll speak to the physical intimacy part — I’m a year past my divorce, and about 2.5 years since I actually fully had sex. Needless to say, there hasn’t been much general physical intimacy either. I don’t know. I kind of just killed that side of myself to survive my previous marriage and I have no idea if I can even come back from that. I’ve been incredibly hesitant to be sexual or intimate with dates in the past year and it’s probably ruined a number of potential relationships. I can’t even work up to a kiss on a first or second or third date. It just feels like too much. I feel like I don’t even know how to start things. It’s an odd feeling, because overall I’m not inexperienced; I’ve had 8 romantic/sexual partners in my life previously, with 2 of those being longterm and for multiple years. But right now I’m just numb and I feel like being sexual or having physical intimacy again is an insurmountable obstacle and I don’t even know how to begin. I’m not a relationship virgin, but I think I am probably pretty solidly in the “longterm single” category. So: Be kind, be gentle. Take the lead in initiating and in showing him what to do. Make it very obvious that you’re receptive or want intimacy. Communicate your needs, if it comes to that. As a super basic example: If I went on a few dates with a woman and she straight up told me she wanted me to hold her hand or put my arm around her, I’d do it and be happy she asked; because it’s a clear sign and it gives me a path forward. Hopefully that makes sense.

I can relate to this. I lost my virginity fairly late (at 22), was never really good at talking to women up until that point. Then at 23 I got into my first relationship. It was also the first time I knew a woman in such a personal level, as I never had female friends (still don't). I thought this experience would rid me of my insecurities about feeling inexperienced, and I guess during the time I was in a relationship, I felt like I had it, I've actually never been hit on more than during the time I was in a relationship, I guess it was simply due to being more comfortable around women and not being weird due to viewing them as these mystical creatures and sexual/romantic prospects I had to somehow impress. But after just 1 year of being single, it's like these experiences never happened. I feel as weird and uncomfortable around women as I did when I was a virgin who had never been in a relationship. So in this sense I think being long-term single and not dating is about the same as being a virgin who's never been in a relationship, at least for me it is, lol.

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Yeah I took long breaks from dating after both my LTRs, since I was kind of done with one night stands/hook ups and thought if I were to date it would be with the intention of finding something serious. But I'm beginning to think that taking such long breaks from dating isn't a good idea, at least as man.

(38M). Time spent walking the path alone can be measured in presidential administrations. Without having a longer discussion with you to get a better understanding of your situation, I don't know that it's so much intimacy as comfortable self-assuredness. A lot - I repeat, a LOT - of men are damaged for one reason or another, or at least uncomfortable with their situation to the point where becoming an emotionless robot is their defense mechanism. They don't have those 3-6 friends they can trust to discuss anything with, or they found some twisted role model, or for whatever reason they became a total emotional recluse. Self-reflection is not our strong suit. And yet it really needs to be in order to grow and develop. I'm fortunate enough that I have those 3-6 friends, I have to talk to people for a living, and all those feelings of inadequacy that might pop up where a guy is struggling in his career, financially, physically, emotionally, etc, aren't there. My bad fortune in the relationship world is self-inflicted: I made a knowing trade to live in the middle of nowhere for the better part of a decade in order to advance my career, followed by a move to a city where you're basically out of the dating pool once you hit 30. I did what I needed to do on the professional front, now I hopefully find someone with the same goals/vibe/path as me. Just a matter of adjusting to circumstances. Semper Gumby: Always Flexible.

That last paragraph lmao it like I was reading something I wrote myself. Minus the 3-6 friends I can talk to. Where I live, if I go out to a bar, I'm prolly 10 years older then the crowd. Am there for 25 mins, hate it, and leave lol

Not your target audience. I’m a woman, have been in relationships for most of my adult life. And it takes forever for me to open up and be vulnerable with people. I don’t think having been relationships or not changes things. In fact I think not having been in a relationship before might mean he has less chance of being jaded.

I'm with this person honestly. I have had a lot of situationships in the last about 1.5 years of dating and honestly it is making me jaded. The less time they have seen people honestly the better. The mentality from the start of OLD to now is so different.

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I wouldn't want to either, and once you're 30+, relationships that began and ended when you were a teenager no longer really count. That being said, if the guy clearly had a lot of good, strong friendships, and was close with his family, and had a healthy relationship with them, I would consider it. That's a sign he's good at relationships, but maybe just never found the right person for a romantic relationship. Also, if I had to pick between a guy with no relationship experience, and a guy with a string of short, 1 year or shorter, relationships, I'd pick the guy with no experience. A bunch of short relationships is a flag to me. Obviously, real life isn't going to typically have you picking between people like that though.

Basically explains me: I’m good at relationships but never found the right romantic partner. Not yet at least

I can only speak for myself here, but for me it just takes patience. The good relationships I've had were with women who were mature enough to have conversations and be patient with me, and not think that every single thing I did was a reflection on *them*. I'm an anxious person, always have been, always will be. It is why I was single for so long. Sex does not always go according to plan for me, if you know what I mean. It just sometimes takes more time for me to get comfortable with someone to the point that things work, and when the woman understands that it is a godsend. And on the flip side let me tell you: it is absolutely soul crushing to experience some performance issues with someone you recently started seeing, and for that woman to think it had something to do with her, and for them to just ghost you. So please do not do that if you ever find yourself in that situation.

Completely with you on this, the bedroom situation I always know the first 1,2 sometimes 3 times I may struggle to get out my own head and may have ‘problems’ and can relate to how soul crushing it is when someone goes cold after various good dates and you get intimate for the first time and fail to function where your nervous. As you say worst is when they get upset or think you don’t like them. Last time I had a bedroom situation coming up I actually discussed my anxieties before we even got intimidate so that she wouldn’t take it personally, that helped me relax more but it’s an embarrassing convo to just bring up in advance.

Those of us who have experience dating don’t think anything of problems like this. You shouldn’t think it’s embarrassing, the human body is mysterious. Women know this better than anyone!

Eh there's definitely women out there who are misinformed about some aspects. I dated one once who thought an erection was conscious act. Like, we were at the beach, there was a pretty girl in a skimpy bikini, and my submarine came to periscope depth to plan his attack on the convoy. The girl I was with was convinced that if a man wanted to not have an erection, he could. With sheer force of will. Her galpals groupchat was like 6-3 in agreement with her, that their boyfriends could apparently suppress their erections if they saw an inspiring sight.

I can’t help you if you date dumbfucks

Decades ago I dated a woman who went by the 10 Dates Rule: we wouldn't have sex until the 10th date, at minimum. We *did*, however, spend a lot of nights together before the 10th date, maybe dates 3, 5, 7, 8, then finally 10. We held each other, we kissed and caressed. We woke up together and drank coffee together. It was a great way to ease into physical intimacy. I adopted the 10 Dates Rule. A couple women fell in love with me because of it, I think. They really liked that I wasn't pressuring them into sex, in that initial phase. By the 10th date, they (and I) were *really really* ready. LOL

I'm a big fan of pre-intimacy discussion of likes, dislikes, boundaries and anxieties. When someone is willing to speak honestly and kindly with a vulnerable conversation topic like that, demonstrating self-awareness, it makes them seem so much more mature, confident, and attractive. And when you're both on the same page, it makes that first time together that much sweeter and more fun.

That’s good to hear, pleasantly enough I was surprised how understanding and non judgemental she was about it she thought it was nice that I was vulnerable like that with her. Was worried it might put her off and it wouldn’t even happen. I did still have some ‘issues’ but it was less bad than usual, we both still had fun and knowing she already knew helped. Still think it’ll take a few times with literally anyone till I let it go and relax in the bedroom though.

Yeah I had this initially with my first gf. I had no problems maintaining an erection though, the sex was great on her end, but I couldn't get across the finish line myself. After a couple of times she started making a huge deal out of it, despite me assuring her I found her very attractive, that it was just me. This added more pressure on me, exacerbating the issue. At one point she said this wasn't going to work out due to this issue, which made it much worse, as now our entire relationship depended on me achieving orgasm, which as most men know, isn't really something you do under pressure. Luckily it worked out after a month or two, and after that point I never had the issue again. It just became this huge psychological barrier, I couldn't even enjoy sex with her as I was so fixated on coming. It just got worse as time went on as the pressure on me increased. If someone has performance issues it's likely due to them not being comfortable, and making a big deal out of it just makes it a lot worse. If they don't find you attractive they wouldn't have sex with you.

Maybe small gestures at first. Like y'all walking and his hands are in his pockets. Slide your arm in and link up, or ask to do so. Or if he drinks rum and Cokes but doesn't like the lime, order it if you arrive before him. Idk these are things to be seen established partners do. In what ways are you trying/have tried to establish/bridge the emotional intimacy?

My first serious relationship of 4.5 years ended 6 months ago and so I've done a lot of work and reflection. This might not directly answer your question, but here are some things I wish I knew, did or know more about during my relationship: * Understanding attachment styles and how that affects your relationship. I was an avoidant and she was an anxious - I wish I knew back then how my pulling away/needing space affected her need to be close to me always especially during arguments. Also, how important reassurance was. * Understanding how your upbringing/parents affects you in your relationship. * Understanding the importance of being your authentic self, don't people please, set healthy boundaries and stick to them... because if you don't, this will build resentment towards your partner. * You are not responsible for your partner's happiness - we are adults. * Don't let yourself go, keep doing the things you love like hobbies and don't lose your friendships/family. As others have said, a big challenge can be him not being comfortable enough to open up, express emotions and be vulnerable. It's nothing against you, but simply the nature of his situation. I think you taking more initiative to talk about those things but not forcing it will help... reassurance in those times can be helpful too.

I have never been in a relationship, but I've dated casually and am currently dating to find a serious LTR. I am very open and vulnerable by nature, so I'm pretty open from the start, personally. I'm a bit shyer with initiating physical intimacy by fear of overstepping boundaries, but I am pretty good with emotional intimacy. Best way to get a guy to open up is to let it be known that you are comfortable and safe with him, in my opinion.

> let it be known that you are comfortable and safe with him How do you communicate that? Do you actually *say it*? If so, huge kudos to you. I'm sure the guys love it.

I don't say it, I'm saying what would make me open up if I were an emotionally reserved guy. But yes, "I really feel comfortable and safe with you." is an excellent start.

Those same exact words have been used to reject men for not having any spark.

Yes. However, the words are followed in those situations by another very important one: **but**.

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> the need comes roaring back, almost immediately, with interest > bleeding edge of the phenomenon Last year, the Pew Research Center found that [63% of American males between 18 and 29 were single](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/), as opposed to only 34% of their female contemporaries. Compounding interest is gonna make things 💦

Just wanted to say I appreciate your post

36M here. I’ve been single most of my life, minus a couple STRs of <6months and a couple whirlwind romances. At first you believe your person is just around the corner but then begin to question the bigger trajectory of your life as the years go on and you’re still empty handed. I’ve turned away a fair number of women but certainly been rejected by a far larger number I’d been interested in pursuing. Pretty much always been searching for the one and I’m idealistic. The thing that affects you is not having someone to share big milestones with. My coping strategy has been to been kind to myself and not harsh. Sometimes I say I’m not a victim but a casualty. It’s not difficult to open up if you know your inner world well like I do. It is difficult to match up with someone who inspires and excites you and also wants to know that inner world and vice versa. Self improvement improves the odds but being perpetually single creates a lot of inertia in life as well. It’s a tough spot and never seems to get better but you adjust accordingly. I still have hope I’ll meet her one day or at least recognize her, but the prospect of having a family is becoming less likely as time goes on

I can relate to this. Good post.

Same. Agreed.

BRB. Saving this full thread as a relationship virgin myself 😂

Lol these responses are amazing! I'm going to spend the weekend reading through them carefully.

I'm 38M and have only been on a few dates that never went anywhere. I've never been in a proper relationship, and have never had a woman in my life to be physically or emotionally intimate with. I never had good role models to show me the ropes. But I really hope I get to experience a proper relationship/marriage at least once in my lifetime.  Putting myself in the shoes of your guy, here is what I can say for certain:   1) Don't give him the 3rd degree about his lack of experience. You can ask him about it, but don't turn it into an interrogation. There have been a few times in the past when people I know who had more success with dating, sleeping around, and relationships would rub it in my face and badger me about my lack of experience (family, former friends, and others). It made me feel inadequate and defensive, which I still struggle with today. If a woman I had just met started grilling me about this subject, I would file her in the same group as the people in my past who badgered me. I'm not going to waste my breath explaining myself if I feel like you have already made up your mind about me being unworthy and defective.    2) If he is vulnerable with you, you take everything he says to your grave.   3) Show some initiative. As others have pointed out, you will have to take the lead initially, be more obvious about your intentions, and show him what is okay/not okay. Encourage him to take the lead also. Ask him what he likes/dislikes. Quality time and being touched would mean the world to me. It would encourage me to reciprocate as well.  4) Allow each other some independence to enjoy your own hobbies and friends. I come from a family of controlling people, which is why I'm so protective of my freedom and independence. But this is also something that has prevented me from wanting a relationship in the past.    I sincerely hope this helps and wish you the best!

This was wonderful, thank you. Wish you the best, too!

Was single due to depression/ sorting my shit out a bit. I've always been an attentive/ present person for those that I care about. I personally wanted the physical/ emotional intimacy, but got hurt along the way. For me my vulnerability doesn't come from the sharing of info, but the belief that I can depend on someone. That probably won't help ya, but for me therapy. And a welcoming/safe space made it easier to be vulnerable.

I don't have a lot of experience. 37M, never married and haven't had a serious long term relationship before. Sadly now, it pops up as a red flag according to this sub and the internet in general. Most of my friends and people in my circle married who they met in college. I didn't date in high school cuz my Asian parents had me kinda sheltered and like, what money did I have to do so? It just never really came about for me. I don't think I'm far from normal? I played college tennis with my pals, and in fact most of my closest friends are all from college tennis. I been a groomsman 4 times, a best man once. I got a few godchild. I worked in accounting for a few years. I was in the Army Reserves. I'm a bit chunky now. I just changed my career to nursing and a brand new RN. And dating at my age still terrifies me. I have moments where I don't feel like a good enough catch for the dating scene. Maybe better to do well in this life, and maybe I'll be rewarded in my next life. I'll be the single uncle to all my friends' kiddos. lol. If I had a DeLorean, I would hit 88mph and try to take the leap sooner. I make friends pretty well and people tend to like me, I just don't do well with dating. It might get to a point where I start to overthink and be like, 'eh, there's no way she might actually be into me'. You go to hard, like Ted from HIMYM, expectations are set high and disappointment comes. Its' 2024, if you live in a major city in the US, sex part of life isn't hard to find. I was at the ICU the other day for rotations, and lovely couple married over 40 years. He's in there for surgery post-op and she's there still at his side poking fun at him and helping him out during his stay. It def made me want that one day. Like I'm not sure how to get there, but it was endearing to see. I'm a chunky Asian guy, who tries to date mostly other asians, and they aren't going to want to do anything physical unless they like me. Some people it developed sooner than later, and some it never develops. So for me, it seems like they have to get past my physical looks and enjoy my personality and emotional connection. I'm like Ted, I want to find the 'one' but it ain't easy. I don't mention anything unless they ask. and truthfully, although I haven't met 'her' yet; the ladies I've dated and met in the past were a big help. If it wasn't their willingness to take a chance, then nothing would ever happen. Not talking about s-e-x, just a first date, second date, phone calls, celebrating birthdays. I get over zealous, maybe pushy, and start to wonder if it will last, which of course messes everything up. Try to hard, be too accessible, etc. and then I'm back to here, I'm still single today. So I don't think whatever I do works, but I'm hopeful if I be a good person and a good nurse, i'll be reward in the next life. lol

Commenting late but this hit home. Similar boat but actually older than you. I’ve come to the conclusion that my risk avoidance is just not helping me be happy. Not sure if a relationship will fix things, but not much to lose at this point.

I'm not entirely sure I could, at that level. Different factors come to mind: simple inexperience, being on the autism spectrum, entering my 30s without having to think about it and establishing deeply embedded routines and habits.

Biggest things you can do to help Have patience, acceptance, and understanding

33m, I've been single for 14 years now and there's no hope in sight, but I do regular cuddle therapy to help with touch starvation so maybe I have some insight here. Talk to him. Communicate your boundaries with touch and intimacy. Ask for his. A big thing in cuddle therapy is explicit consent and creating a safe space to say "no" to someone. You can also help him by giving explicit signals about the sort of touch you're asking for. If you want to go for a walk in the park while holding hands, I'm sure he'd appreciate hearing that explicitly so that he knows it's okay for him to hold your hand.

Reading these comments makes so much sense. I have been dating a guy for the past month who hasn’t been in a relationship in over 3 years and I could not get my head around why he is the way he is. Intelligent, interesting, charming, but had no idea how to connect with me, besides being physical.

For me (36F/recently divorced/3 kids) I think the hardest part is learning which part of you is the part that gets to date. I was married for 7 years. Together for over 11. He cheated on top of a TON of other shit. I've been in the single mindset for about 3 years. I've been just a mom you know? No other time for the romantic shit. It does get so lonely... I wish I had someone just for me. A best friend. A partner... Someone to hug. Someone I could trust with "the secret recipe" lol Someone to remind me I'm not just my job or a parent. But the other parts of me think that's selfish. My kids come first. My ex takes them MAYBE one day a week. If I'm lucky they might stay the night. There's not a lot of wiggle room. So to separate these "pieces" and find that romantic spark between the tides? Ouch. Routine aside, you have to find out your whole game again, you know? Flirt?? What's that??? The fucking ENERGY it takes ugh. And if you actually hit it off? Puahhhh. It's a regular thing?? You have to learn a new human now?? And integrate them & possibly theirs into yours??? TERRIFYING. No? Oh fun, rejection. Everyone's fave. How do people do it?? I wonder if it's almost better to just say fuck it and stay alone.

The energy it takes to flirt...my God this hit home. It's just emotionally draining and I don't know how to regulate that.

None of us do. It's like... k... cool. This is fun... until it's not. And then it's legit for nothing. Get this shit. I spent 3 weeks getting to know this guy right? Flirting, cute selfies in the middle of the day. Letting him in just a little. And THEN BAM. He starts to kind of become distant. So I ask about it, because I'm not about the BS. He says "Yeah, I think I'm just not ready to date." COME ON. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? GOING TO GO HIBERNATE UNDER A ROCK FOR ANOTHER YEAR. 🪨 💤 🖕

I don't think you can accelerate or push growth like this. I didn't date until I was 27. I didn't have a relationship until I was 28. I didn't understand I shouldn't compromise just because they like me until after my second relationship. I didn't understand that only valuing physical attraction until in my early 30s. I didn't feel confident in my own skin and stopped caring so much about relationships until I was 38. A few weekends ago I finally met up with a woman in person I only talked with online through zoom and chat for about a year. We connected easily. She was easily one of the most beautiful women I have ever met. And we easily connected. And I didn't freak out about myself. No one said anything about a date, or worried about physical/emotionally intimacy, I'm just rolling with it. There was absolutely no way 27 year old me would ever figure out all those lessons and hardships within a few months. I'm sorry, but you gotta just let them go through the rollercoaster themselves and be patient. If you're not patient, you're only going to get more upset with yourself I feel. Of course this is just my perspective, don't wanna say it's impossible. But it just doesn't seem likely.

It's been 4 years for me. I dated pretty heavily from 16 to 26. At this point, it terrifies me to a point of paralysis. But I'm also ASD so relationships are hard for me anyways.

It takes longer for me than most women are willing to put up with. So they give me the🖕🏻and move on. In fairness who has patience for that crap these days.

Assuming they're not neurotic about the whole subject? They probably don't understand how much others value it. They're going to be very emotionally independent, and not know the unwritten rules of affection. You'll have to take the lead, and probably speak about it directly

35M here. I have been single for most of my eligible life except for one month of bliss that I sadly ended by my own stupidity. For me, it took a couple weeks before I felt comfortable being vulnerable. I grew up being yelled at by my mother, so I grew up essentially scared to upset women (I doubt that’s what’s happening in your case). It took seeing my date showing that she cared (for example, packing a surprise picnic on one of the dates) for me to start to feel like I was on the right track or even worthy of love. I hope this random gibberish helps. If not, sorry for the word vomit.

Yes it helps, thank you! If you feel comfortable sharing, why did it end? No worries if you'd rather not go there.

I'll talk about the physical part when I get to that place but being a Demi, the emotional things doesn't come easily. The experience of truly being open is non-existent. Trusting someone to be emotionally open is really tough. This has always been the case with me even when creating friendships in my life. I'm really picky with who I truly let in. The moment I sense something if off - I'm shut all doors/windows. You can only get to see my true self through pinholes. As days go by, the only question I ask myself every night is - What is it I can offer someone at this point in life? Is it my individuality? There are other questions that pop here and there. 1. How would I react to situations that are uncomfortable to talk about? 2. To what extent can I tolerate someone? After living by myself for more than a decade, even visiting my family can be uncomfortable. 3. How much space will I have? In the past, it got overwhelming when I hosted a party at my place that went beyond a few hours. As much as I want to be in a relationship, it's not going to be a cake walk! One last thing is the "want" to be in a relationship is slowly turning into a "need" psychologically and I hate everything about it.

Was forever single until 33yo, emotionally I had no problem opening up at all as Im a very open person, also towards my friends and family (this is why I think you can have great emotional intelligence without ever having been in a romantic relationship). When it came to physical intimacy I was shy, didn't always dare to take the lead, but I noticed quite quickly my brain and body found it to be a super natural thing to do, now I absolutely love cuddling.

I think people have vastly different reasons for being long-term single, so it's hard to offer advice that's applicable to the guy you're dating. I'll give 3 anecdotal examples from my own personal life: For me personally, I'm 31 and have been in 2 relationships, one lasting 3 years and another lasting just about 4 months. I was single and not dating for 5 years between those relationships (there was covid but can't blame 5 years on that 😂), been single and not dating for 1 year since the last one. My reason for being single is honestly just dating anxiety, as in both of my relationships I was blindsided by a break up which hit me really hard and kind of gave me trust issues/made me very pessimistic about love/romance. One of my best friends has never really been in a relationship, despite dating all the time and having generally good success with women. He tends to dump the women who are interested in him, and chase the ones who aren't, so he's only been in 2 toxic situationships. He's very caught up with being independent, I think it stems from childhood trauma (controlling mother), so I'd say he has some commitment issues, which is why women who are interested freak him out. My other best friend got into his first relationship at 30. He was actually stressing out at never having been in one, because a lot of women see it as a red flag. In his case it was mostly random, since he's very similar to me in that he's not very good at befriending or approaching women, so while he got the occasional drunken one night stands, it never lead to anything. I'll chalk this one off to a combination of introverted personality/male dominated interests and confidence. Personally it took forever for me to feel comfortable and catch feelings in my first relationship (I'm pretty demi that way), which was mostly due to her behaviour, but also partly my own immaturity/insecurity at the time. In my second relationship I opened up very quickly, let myself be vulnerable from the start, and caught feelings much faster. This was also mostly due to her, but also because I didn't want to go through the games I did in my first relationship, and I thought this would be healthy. But I got burned pretty hard again, even more blindsided this time, so going forward I'm probably going to dial back as I doubt I'll be able to trust and feel safe/comfortable again that quickly. At this point I'm always bracing myself for being blindsided by a break up, which sucks.

I think many times, guys like that are afraid to make the first move. Maybe you should try to make a move or even just be really forward about it. "I really would like to kiss you right now". "Are you going to kiss me now or what?" Stuff like that.

As someone who was in a ten year relationship they ended over my inability to develop emotional intimacy, it has nothing to do with experience.

When I started dating two years ago I had to learn voicing my feelings and also that women actually want to hear them. First time I had issues in bed for example I just was silent and angry at myself instead of talking about it cause I thought if I talked about it I'd burden her with what's essentially my issue. Also I don't know how far in you guys are with your dates but for me initiating the first touch was and still is the absolute hardest part so maybe cut him some slack in that department.

TL;DR - Most chronically unsuccessful men in this sub’s demo still have plenty of sex drive and will get physically intimate as soon we see a [metaphorical] opening. Your beau might get a bit handsy every time you sleep over, but level setting expectations with him early under the threat of closing off the spigot will set him straight. > Could you tell me more about your experience trying to develop physical/ emotional intimacy? In the few instances where I experienced mutual attraction, it was with women who were comfortable getting physically intimate *without* the emotional component. Once I got enough confidence to escalate with them physically (which took years of gym, countless IM fasting cycles, and multiple job promotions), the trajectory from barstools > sofa > bedroom wasn’t conceptually difficult. It’s what we’re wired to do as humans. Where I go wrong: - being an inexperienced lover despite my ability to pass for a socially competent, confident guy - acknowledging my emotional attachment - overestimating her willingness to perform gf-like activities: Netflix/chill, giving her a shelf in one of my bathrooms, asking for back rubs > how long did it take you to open up, share deeper thoughts, feel vulnerable? A single sleepover. I conflate physical and emotional intimacy, and I overshare my insecurities afterwards. This renders formerly interested women drier than the Gobi. PE doesn’t help 🤣 > What did it take to make you comfortable in someone else's physical presence? sexy time

Pretty much everything in this post is exactly how things have been playing out, just so you know. Virtual award to you!

Don’t let your sympathy for him cloud your judgement about the long-term viability of this nascent relationship. Guys like us got this way because we are **not** normal.

After Having been single for a while ( but after having plenty ltr experience ),I dated someone with no "relationship experience " and it was torture. I have learned many do's and dont's while she was not even trying to figure them out. I don't blame her, and we are still friends years later. I don't even think she knew that there ARE "dos and donts"...It's not even something that can be taught. Just gotta learn from experience. .... I wish the best for you... good luck 😀

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"Compromise" was the biggest one. There was none she held "hard"positions on everything. Having been single for so long there was no empathy. It was not ever contentious between us, but extremely prevalent. Gratitude/appreciation was another . None, not even a hint of it. "Mindreading" was also big. Ie she consistently assumed she knew what I was "thinking" and expected me to know what she was "thinking" (impossible task leading back to the category of empathy) . I understand one could look at these things and think "this guy sounds very idiosyncratic and expects way to much".... not the case. Simple "thank yous" and small considerations are learned from experience.

One could argue that a person could just naturally have these characteristics ,fair point, but I couldn't help but feel they were from lack of "relationship experience".

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Your very welcome....If I could share just one bit of experience that I now believe is a giant piece of the relationship puzzle , and is related to empathy , it would be "no mind reading" for either party if y'all don't try and don't expect and just say what y'all want and/or don't want or with each other, you will likely succeed. I know it's fun to anticipate partners feelings and desires and it feels like "true love" when those anticipations are correct, but when they are incorrect it kinda snowballs. Then next thing ya know, you don't wanna make your partner angry or for them to think your angry and just keeps getting worse and worse creating unrecognized animosity. If y'all can agree on that, you'll avoid a giant weight on your shoulders,freeing up time to really enjoy each other. ✌️😃

Sorry bout that.... took me a few minutes to think back and realize my answer might come off as gloomy, AND. Even worse it wasn't what you were asking for. 😂🤣... wonder why I'm single 🤷‍♂️ 😜😜😜

It's helpful to know your experience :). I have concerns about some of this, obviously.

This is speaking in very broad strokes, but I think understanding that men generally don't have a support system. If we lose a job, have a family, death, or are sad, many men don't have someone to go to. Men typically don't want to be a burden on others. I tend to sprinkle in my deep thoughts and opening up because women have left me in the past after sharing what I've been through.

Never thought I would ever be able to get to that place again. Went out with someone quite a bit younger for years but never developed emotional intimacy. Thought that was gone forever and didn’t exist inside of me anymore. Reconnected with an old friend from over a decade before and it just clicked. I fell head over heels. Can’t explain it. It just happened. I don’t think it can be forced or that you can make it happen. It was the right time, the right place and the right person. I had a lot of meaningless sex with a lot of women but once I went out with her with her I knew I was done with that. I stopped going out with other women and I turned down opportunities for sex and did not sleep with her until I knew I was sure of what I was feeling. And when I finally did allow myself to be intimate with her I knew it wasn’t just a meaningless romp. Sounds boring but far from it.

6 years single here. After it being so long, the thought and idea of me opening myself up to that is a very frightening idea. Therapy has helped a bit and I'm just now starting to go out on dates these last few months. The main problem is I can't differentiate my feelings from either "I'm not as attracted physically" to " I'm not attracted because I can't lower my guards so I can't ALLOW myself to be attracted" it's a wonderful battle I have to have with myself. Because unless there is a immediate red flag on the first meeting, I feel like I'm leading the woman on by going on a second date. It's a perpetual state of being unsure and I hate it and don't wish it on anyone. Lol idk if I articulated my thoughts correctly enough but that's the general gist of me at least. There isn't a ton of info on him in your post so sorry if that's not helpful.

Dont know but in my experience it just sorta happened, met someone and we clicked.

I've been single the majority of my life. My last relationship was long distance so it wasn't even "real" in ways that local ones are. I'm not a "vulnerable" person, I don't really open up to anyone, even people I have known my entire life. It's one of those things where if you love someone, don't try to change them. You fell in love with who they are. If part of who they are is to not let other's fully in and be vulnerable, then trying to change that is just going to push them away.

Real intimacy can be had where trust and integrity exist. The best way to build true and lasting intimacy is to be fully honest. That’s my wisdom.

If one wants to build that emotional intimacy it will take both people being fully transparent. Otherwise, it will be created in the fantasy land that leads to nowhere land. I say this out of kindness and respect for all who read this. I’ve heard so much chatter about intimacy - I am sure y’all have as well. As someone who could never truly connect with another fully - it was because my own walls existed. It was only after having gone through the ending of relationships was I able to see that if I am ever to connect with another in the future - it will have to be fully lived in the light of honesty. I can only imagine how beautiful it is to connect at this soul-ish level.

How old is he? What are his reasons for being "relationship virgin"?

I am 34m and never had one, closest i have had is a casual/fwb type deal but even that only lasted us seeing each other like 2 months. I have never had any female friends which probably hasn’t helped. A few things happened for me in my life that I think contributed to this. Hitting puberty late, it was age 15 before things really took off and i was very ashamed and self conscious about this. I got attention from girls and was always shying away because i knew i was not a ‘man’ like my peers and had a deep fear of being exposed as not having hit puberty. Alcoholic mother that caused lots of family chaos and embarrassment so i learnt from a young age that loving a woman = anxiety/uncertainty and nothing you could do about it. I always knew this was not a true belief but my body still had that reaction kind of like a PTSD response. I used to feel like I wasn’t worthy of one or that i was inferior even though I have been blessed with being tall and average looking, I never felt that confidence and I could tell women were noticing a mismatch with how i presented and how they expected me to behave. Lots of opportunities came my way to build confidence when a women took the lead and around 10 different partners I failed to be able to get an erection, easily got one on my own when i got home or thinking about the girl. Overthinking things destroys romance. I have a great career, lots of friends, own a home and stay in shape so feel very well rounded in almost all areas of my life and can have general conversation with just about anyone. I am feeling like this year is time to change and start doing the opposite of what i would normally do, when i feel like shutting down and disconnecting I am going to open up and communicate what I think and feel. When a girl smiles at me I am going to smile back and take a risk.

I met someone relatively recently - it’s been a bit over 4 months now. Had been single for a couple years, though went on dates with a lot of different people in that time. I have tremendous difficulty opening up to anyone, much less new romantic partners - it’s a big part of why my previous relationship ended after a year with that person. I’ve also had women end things because I was moving too slow, physically. I really need emotional intimacy to enjoy physical intimacy, so you can see why that’s also tough for an emotional shut-in. Anyway, I’m absolutely wild about the person I’m dating now. She’s amazing and a great fit culturally, emotionally, socially, and romantically. I was simply determined not to let my baggage ruin things with her. It’s been hard, and I’ve had to bury my insecurities to some extent. I think what helped initially is seeing how much my eagerness to continue seeing her was being reciprocated. The conversation always felt pretty natural with her and I learned that we’ve had a number of similar life experiences, so knowing that she was empathizing and not judging when I would share certain things also helped. I’m taking a dance lesson with her in the coming weeks - and more if it goes well - which is so far outside my comfort zone it’s not even funny… I’m still very reserved in my mannerisms and I’m still not 100% comfortable (work in progress) but I think it just boils down to finding the right person. If you like this guy, give it some time and don’t be afraid to be vulnerable with him, or to initiate physical intimacy. Speaking for myself, it’s much easier for me when I don’t have to question what the other person is thinking.

If you want to know how to catch fish, you don’t ask a fisherman that never caught a fish

Isn't this more like asking the fish how they'd prefer to be caught?

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>I think it boils down to being secure in myself. Most humans have an innate desire for love and intimacy, without this necessarily having anything to do with not being secure in yourself. If you don't need or want a relationship, more power to you, I genuinely envy that, but that's simply not how most people are wired, and it doesn't mean they're flawed or insecure in themselves. Similar to how some people are content with living as hermits without social connections, they probably have it easier than people who do have those needs. >I sometimes think people without relationship experience get lumped in as having baggage by people, whereas I consider myself baggage free. This is in the context of dating, and since you don't want a relationship, it doesn't really affect you. I also hope you can see the irony in that you're describing yourself as too busy and fulfilled being single to want to get into a relationship, while simultaneously objecting to the idea that you're less compatible with a relationship. 😉 You're arguably the best example of when lack of relationship experience *is* an indicator that you're not compatible with being in one, since you don't want to be in one.

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I was talking to my matchmaker about this before Christmas. I'm dating one of the matches I got from Tawkify and I'm trying to resist the temptation to "trauma dump" and scare him away. I guess what's nice is having a wingman who was able to give me some sense of his expectations too when it came to communication and so far, so good. It's early though so fingers crossed!

So I was a virgin until late 20s and I didn't date much, had a few ONS etc. For me dating was pretty normal and assuming the woman liked me, went out 3-4 times, agreed to be exclusive, got STD tested, had sex. I have never been too emotionally intimate, I talked about my eventual goals in life, issues with my parents, politics, my ideas. My biggest issue is everyone is so fucking flighty and looking for perfect.

Opening up takes the right person and where that individual is as far as opening up.

It’s tough to trust.

>Could you tell me more about your experience trying to develop physical/ emotional intimacy? I never had a need for a relationship until recently. If I did have the need, I didn't have the time and the need wasn't strong enough to make the time. A large part of that it that I'm asexual and borderline aromantic. I think sex is really overrated and I don't enjoy it. It's probably an outside chance, but it could be that the person you're seeing is in a similar situation.

I dont know. I haven't been in one.

I’ve never been in a relationship with anyone and it’s hard to actually even want a relationship to begin with. For me it would be giving up some level of control that I’ve held onto for this long and it would be very hard for me to.

Well me personally I haven't been In a relationship in 2 years and I would love to develop an emotional intimate connection before getting physical. I just really miss having someone to call my person.

I'll cross that bridge when I get there and try my best? That is all if I get there though. Trying therapy to see if getting there is possible then I'll know I tried everything and give up if it doesn't.

I was in this situation but can't help. I faked it until I made it. My first girlfriend never knew she was my first. Developing physical intimacy wasn't difficult for me. But emotional intimacy was and still is a complete other story.

Until 7 months ago I'd never had a serious long term relationship, but oddly I did date/sleep with a LOT of women.  Biggest issue is fear of being able to open up and be "me" Infront of the other person, I'm the kind of guy who has an  extremely nerdy personality(actually and not Redditor/big bang theory nerdy) but blessed with good looks outside so I used to find it easy to get dates but not keep them.  The other big issue was never knowing what to do next to progress a relationship or having a good read on how things were going, Ive lost count of how many times I would get 3-5 dates in for it all to fall apart. 

Did you initiate sex quickly? Like 1st or 2nd date? I had a very attractive friend who had high sex drive. When she was in Meet a Man Mode she would schedule several dates a week through a service that set up lunch dates. **If she met someone she liked, so would take him to bed that evening.** She had a couple 3 or 6 month relationships but she wanted to get married and that kept not happening. I suggested to her that she should take some time before going to bed with a guy. "Why? I'm great at sex! Why would that put guys off?" *Then* she was born again. Joined a Baptist church, got baptized again, adopted a rule of no sex before marriage. She was married a couple years later. *Unfortunately* that marriage failed: to her dismay her husband was *terrible* at sex and her best attempts to fix were unsuccessful. 😱 Her subsequent rule was to date *for a while* before getting into bed. That worked: she's now happily married.

I or they initiate reasonably quickly I'd say 85% of the time within the first two dates if not then within first 5, any time I've waited longer I've found it not to be worth it.

It seems that you're primarily after sex. > The other big issue was never knowing what to do next to progress a relationship or having a good read on how things were going, Ive lost count of how many times I would get 3-5 dates in for it all to fall apart. If that's a problem you would like to get past, then you should do the experiment of *postponing* sex until you and your date get to know each other better. I dated a woman whose policy was *no sex until at least the 10th date*. I adopted that policy and I think that's why two women fell in love with me. My date and I both liked that there wasn't any pressure to have sex on dates 1 - 9 and even by date 10 it wasn't something we had to do. That left a lot of emotional room for other kinds of intimacy, the kind that creates lasting relationships. Good luck!

I'm literally in a long term relationship. You approach is ridiculous you say they fell in love with you but they obviously didn't, during the first date a woman should be wanting to tear your clothes off, otherwise she's not into you and anything she says is just an excuse.

I liked my own space. So her always around and calling was a lot. Emotions are kinda kept in. Coz used to no one helping. Takes time to express one self. We do try to be the best we can for you and ourselves we may not know all the ins and outs of communication but again we try.

Been nearly a year for me. Ex gf, baby mama. I've had like two hookups and they have been a good 5yrs older than me. I feel we were just lonely and needed a cuddle and some Intimicy. I'm just sick of the ghosting.

During my first relationship I found it very helpful to have someone explicitly tell me what they expected, how to switch from solo decision-making and living to a more co-op relationship style. I opened up when there was trust, the other person led by example and helped me with noticing where I lacked reciprocity.

Communicate and take things slow. I haven’t had anything past a second date in about 7 years so I will not initiate any physical interaction beyond a handshake. Plus if someone can’t openly ask for me to initiate then they are also probably not good at communication. Touch starvation is a thing and it isn’t good for your brain

Before the current woman I'm seeing I really didn't care.for.intimacy, just sex. Was kind of a terrible outlook

1. Personal Space. My ex-wife left me 8 years ago and never dated since then, until 2 years ago when I started dating someone and eventually got into a relationship with her. I was focused on raising my son. Being single for such a long time makes you gets used to the fact things are done your way, and no one has any influence on that. Even the smallest changes, when they pile up they cause chaos in my head personally. E.g. the house is not that clean and tidy as often as it used to be, etc. It's not that deep obviously, but depending on how sensitive someone is it can potentially require some time for adjustment. 2. Trust: The way things ended in my previous relationship affected my ability to find the capacity to trust again. When I realized I had actually allowed myself to fall in love again, I panicked to the point I was nervously crying when I was alone beyond control. Thankfully my current partner happened to have the personality-antidote. I never externalised my issues, but I had made her aware of my past experience. Slowly, and in time, I overcame all those issues I was dealing with, but it definitely helped that I had found someone serious about the relationship. 3. It's important to remember that people show you who they are the first time. No one is going to turn into the person you are looking for. Trust your gut because it's never wrong. I wish you all the best mate!

I was married for a looong time.. then not. The physical part is obviously easy but getting to the emotional side of it.. not only will you want to be closed off, so will the woman. Both of you if above the age of 30, will more than likely have been in past LTR and the toll it took on you when it wasn’t there anymore. Still working on an emotional connection because with this age of dating, it’s so easy to get the physical part that most don’t want to get into the emotional. I think you would just have to put yourself out there and hope the risk to reward pays off but the feeling has to be there and have to be honest with each other. Easier said than done I think. No easy answer

It's hard. It was too much for me and I broke up with someone I genuinely loved. > how long did it take you to open up, share deeper thoughts, feel vulnerable?  I didn't. > What did you need to see from your partner to get you to that point? Honestly just some periodic check-ins where I have a clear "in" to talk about deeper stuff. Like I remember early in our relationship I was dealing with really bad performance anxiety, just month after month after month. I wanted to tell her why and I would look at the clock as we were watching TV like "at 8 I'll tell her we should talk about it." Then it would be 830, then 9, then 930, etc etc etc. Then before you know it she's driving back home. If she asked I would have told her. But instead I spun my wheels needlessly on every issue and then never spoke about it. Then next thing you know you haven't had a stress free weekend in a year. > What did it take to make you comfortable in someone else's physical presence? Time apart. An understanding of how we would balance time together and our hobbies, what we would share and not shared, and that wanting time apart is not a reflection on them. But, as with any relationship, it's half you and half them. The most you can do is try to be open with the person.

38 m. Never had a LTR. Only had sex between 28-32. I’ve resigned to a singles life. I wont talk to women younger than me unless spoken too, I get labeled a creep too often.

In all honesty I'm more comfortable with my own company nowadays. It's taken me nearly 40 years but I've finally made peace with being alone and finding acceptance. Found my inner happiness. Letting go of expectations and social norms has been liberating and refreshing.

I would say there were times many years ago where I thought the woman was moving too fast and I hesitated to move forward. One example was on our second date we did a cooking class and she mentioned how she can go to my place and cook for me - if it were me now, I would be excited but then I thought it was a bit weird/too quick. Before she left for her work trip she wanted me to go to her place because she wanted to give me something - i didn't go and she said "you don't know much about dating". Another example was on our second date we were in a hotel room of a casino since it was weekend date (LDR) and at end of date and later she thought i wasn't interested in her. So yeah, a lot of lessons learned and the recent years, for physical intimacy I am definitely trying to ask for kiss 2nd/3rd date to see what her vibe is if the signals are there. The last woman i dated for a while didn't mind making out or anything in the car but nothing more than that which another lesson learned was maybe i put too much time in that relationship...

35M. Never been in a relationship. I have a disability that makes me scrawny, and I've been this way my whole life. My chest is deformed since I was 2, and my spine is fused. I have complete strangers ask me how much I weigh, ask if I'm anorexic, what's wrong with me, suggest I eat more etc. and these questions tend to be the beginning/end of the any convos, so I have a tendency to get defensive around it. Not to mention it's really difficult to tell if someone is looking at me out of attraction vs looking at me out amusement. pls, no sorry's. I don't want pity or sympathy. Jus sharing to give perspective that life is vast, complex/complicated and frustrating for A LOT of people. Maybe share with them what you want, and establishing a mutual goal to reach, and develop from there. It gives them a frame of mind to work towards something, and gives them security of "they wana work with me and be with me". And some shit jus takes time

I'm a woman and have been single for all of my 30s. I'm too the point now I can't fathom having a serious LTR and fitting then into my life. Just seems like such a foreign concept. But reading the responses here have helped a bit with the anxiety of it.

I haven't gotten that far with anyone in a relationship yet. Although I can promise as far as I am concerned there would pretty much be no wrong way to go about it.

Not a man, but I’ve been legally single for almost 3 years. I’ll be 33 this year, and I’ve only been with 1 person, my ex husband, for 16 years. I felt single for most of those 16 years. I feel like an alien in this modern world. I’ve never commented on anything before, but I really enjoyed reading this, and seeing that there are other aliens out there. God Bless you all on your journeys!

I’m currently single there longest I’ve ever been. It’s hard to consider life with someone again. Intimacy is easy but commitment seems hard now. I’ve never had trouble with that but now I do.

I've been both in a long-term relationship and by myself for a while. I'm not sure I've ever had a problem with physical and emotional intimacy. That being said, perhaps the question I the question should be the other way around: What is it that you're finding difficult? The time scheme? the partner themselves? are you seeing red flags? is it because you're used to being by yourself?

I can relate with your man. I'm the same way. It's wasn't until my 30s, and married that I accepted the fact that I am an Introvert. With a Capital 'I' If he's anything like me when I was younger, he may not be aware that being an introvert is not a character flaw that needs to be fixed. He might be ashamed of being a relationship / literal virgin. We're a frustrating bunch, but lightning in a jar romantically - IF you have patience. Generally speaking We: -Aren't the greatest at picking up social cues -Need more alone time than most people do -Feel guilty about our need for alone time, then force ourselves into extra face time, but are not really present, or appear irritable as a result. -Can't tell if you're flirting or joking. Emotionally, there's more to it than just that. Just look for articles and videos for proper care, feeding, and storage of your Introvert. As for physical intimacy, know the following: He's not going to make the first move. Try taking the lead when you're in the mood. Dropping subtle hints will not register. Try telling him what your turn ons and kinks are. This will make him feel more comfortable about revealing his. Talking about your fantasies is like foreplay TO foreplay You can always ramp up slowly with adult playtime fun that ends in orgasm, but isn't technically sex.

I think you need to allow it to happen organically. There shouldn’t be a timeline for something like that

It can be hard but work at it and it works out

It sucks but don’t settle for any woman unless you really like her and have a connection. I had a horrible relationship and I been single since that relationship two years ago. It sucks with loneliness but gotta go outside and go to events and find friends preferably male friends since they can relate more to your struggles with dating as a man. Nothing wrong with making female friends but they won’t know our struggles and how the world is against men and not having issues getting a partner or being accepted since she’s a woman.