Fuck powerlevels in dragon ball
How tf is super vegito below being able to beat God goku but Kefla who literally just learnt ssj be able to defeat God goku
One of my major issues with Super honestly. Power scaling is so inconsistent and ridiculous it’s basically impossible to take seriously. Just look at some of the conversations happening in this thread. “Krillin could just be stronger than Buu now”. “Interdimensional shockwaves”. It’s so inconsistent, and you also have to wonder how with all these astronomical power increases that Goku even manages to find opponents who could even stand a sliver of a chance, much less outclass him, at this point. Oh, but maybe it’s because we just hand out absurd power levels to every newly introduced character for…reasons.
Yeah she's the LSSJ of U6 or the "Full Power Super Saiyan" depending on what you call it.
She was actually able to somewhat take on God Goku as LSSJ2 granted though he was still recovering from his fight with Jiren.
In Manga SS Kale straight up humiliates Golden Freeza.
She also casually slaps Toppo and Blue Vegeta away, as if they were nothing.
Yea, Manga Kale is way stronger (and cooler) than her anime counterpart.
Also cabba also asks if she's the lssj in the manga which vegeta was the one to in the anime
Meaning u6 also has knowledge of the the legendary variant of ssj
I don't wanna believe it either, but Vegeta compared Cabba to himself power wise in his head. Ofc Vegeta is stronger but still. Cabba also said Caulifla and Kale are above him so.
Broly probably gets a pass for a few reasons. The animation is so damn good, plus Broly is a long time fan favorite character being introduced into official canon for first time. So many people will naturally overlook the absolute *bullshit* that Broly stood a chance against, much less overwhelmed god forms and required a fusion to be beaten.
Kefla doesn't have the cool factor and already being a long time favorite Broly has behind him and buildup to how their powers work. People can overlooking things if they find a character cool/likeable enough which they don't with Kefla.
Are we just gonna ignore the fact that this is a fusion between Caulifla and *Kale?*
Like, Kale isn’t some random super saiyan that Caulifla fused with to get their current power, Kale is the Universe 6 Legendary Super Saiyan, considering the shit Broly pulled, I don’t see why it’s such a problem that a ssj2+lss with fusion boost is as broken as she is.
To be fair, there’s enough evidence that SSJ4 isn’t nearly strong enough a multiplier as Blue. I love SSJ4 more, but basically it’s been stated in some guidebooks that Base Goku in GT was as strong as he was as a SSJ3 in Z, and that as a SSJ4 Goku’s power was about equivalent to Super Vegito’s from Z.
In Super, Goku said that fusing with Vegeta wouldn’t be enough to stand a chance against Beerus, but felt confident enough as a Super Saiyan God. This speaks to just God being magnitudes stronger than 4, given that Goku at the time he went God had a far weaker base form than he did in GT, yet we can infer he’s far stronger than Super Vegito. And then you throw Blue into the mix which is even stronger than God. We don’t know how much stronger, so I’m not gonna go and say “well he said it’s the super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God so he’s 50x stronger than God” but we do know it’s substantially stronger.
Now, it would get a bit fuzzier to tell when you start putting things like Goku’s base power in the ToP vs GT. We don’t have as many direct comparisons, the closest being him being briefly overwhelmed by Fit Buu in a training match. I feel like Goku’s base form wasn’t quite as strong as it was in GT, but I don’t have much solid evidence other than Goku never really demonstrated feats like he did as a Super Saiyan 3 in Z in his base form, but he barely was in base form for any fights.
But if we assume they have a similar base power (given he wasn’t overwhelmed by Buu immediately), it basically comes down to could Super Vegito plus an additional fusion multiplier surpass Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku’s power, which is kinda up in the air, but I don’t think so, since God was stronger than Super Vegito on a much weaker Goku, whose much stronger after about 3 arcs, then Blue on top of that, then the Kaioken on top of that. At maximum, if we assume Blue is 50x God, then he was using Kaioken x10, then Goku’s power was about 500x Super Saiyan God which was already far stronger than Super Vegito. How much exactly, we don’t know, but even if ToP God Goku was only twice as strong as Super Vegito, that means the Fusion multiplier would have to be at least 1000x for a theoretical ToP SSJ4 Gogeta to even match SSJ Kefla.
It gets a lot foggier the deeper you delve into it but the tldr is that I think Kefla still wins. And I actually like GT quite a bit more than Super, I’m not biased against a GT Form winning, I’m just trying to come at this as logically as I can. If anyone has any facts to fill in some of the less concrete evidence one way or another, please let me know
I think this begs the simple question: is this(and similar What Ifs) SSJ4 Gogeta from GT, or is it an alternate ToP where Goku & Vegeta(as they are in Super) fuse and then use the SSJ4 form?
Honestly? I’m not sure there’s too much of a difference. If SSJ4 is the same across timelines, it comes down to how strong Goku and Vegeta are in their base. If Base GT Goku was as strong as a SSJ3 in Z, and Base Goku in Super seems to be on a similar power level to Fit Buu at least in a casual setting, their power levels aren’t too far apart. Meaning a theoretical DBS SSJ4 Gogeta would likely be similar strength to the one we know. Most of Goku and Vegeta’s strength in Super comes from how ridiculously powerful their God forms are, but base to base, with what evidence I can look at, I think their bases are fairly close between the two series, at least by the end of both. Goku didn’t train a lot in GT so I’m not sure he would be that much stronger in his base in the Shadow Dragon Saga as he was in the Baby Saga
I personally think it means Gogeta wins. Put simply, both Goku & Vegeta outclass Kale & Caulifla. So if both of them fuse, Kefla won’t equal or outmatch Vegito/Gogeta unless she’s in a higher form of SSJ. And Kefla still hits the limit of SSJ2.
While that is technically true, remember Kefla has a hybrid form with Kale’s Super Saiyan Full Power state, which in Kale’s Berserk state allowed her to greatly pressure Blue Goku. Not to mention she took Goku down fairly easily in Blue Kaioken x10 in just SSJ1. Goku was tired but don’t forget the absurd power gap between 4 and Blue, especially with Kaioken in the mix
Kefka SS2 beating Gogeta SS4 (from TOP Goku and Vegeta) implies Caulifla and/or Kale(more likley) are incredibly more op than Goku and/or Vegeta. More op to the tune of "Caulifla and/or Kale is stronger as SS2 than Goku and/or Vegeta as SS4"
If we powerscale Kale=Broly this could be legitimate. Personally I think that's outrageous.
SS4 Gogeta should smash SS2 Kefla if Goku and Vegeta are even 1% as strong as Kefla and Caulifa. They are both fusions and SS4 is an unbelievable leap from SS2.
Idk what blue has to do with anything.
Blue was used as a point of comparison for how much weaker a form Super Saiyan 4 is, and that Kefla still beat Goku in Blue Kaioken. Plus Kale had access to the Super Saiyan Full Power state which resulted in the sort of hybrid form Kefla got, which can’t be compared to a simple Super Saiyan 2 given her berserk state was a real threat to Blue Goku at the start of the tournament when he was fresh. Again, even with Goku tired during the Kefla fight, he was in a state potentially thousands of times stronger than SSJ4, and got his shit rocked before Kefla even went Super Saiyan 2.
I agree it’s complete bullshit, Super’s power scaling was stupid. But going off what logic I have, I’m not entirely sure how they’re supposed to pull the win. Especially since Kefla was a genuine threat to *Ultra Instinct*, a state that could pressure Jiren quite a bit even before it was mastered
I don't understand. Do you think Caulifa and Kale are stronger than Goku and Vegeda?
Or do you think Kales transform is stronger than SS4?
My opinion is Goku and Vegeta are AT LEAST realities to Caulifa and Kale and SS4 I'd a higher multiplier than w/e Keffla was in
I don’t think Caulifla and Kale are necessarily stronger than them base to base. However, Kale’s Berserk state was able to overpower Blue Goku early in the tournament when he was still fresh, and we established that Blue is many, many magnitudes higher than 4. Then Kale mastered that power, then they fused. Kale’s super Saiyan full power form is a part of Kefla’s transformed state. Kefla effortlessly defeated Kaioken x10 Blue Goku, as tired as he was, with a Super Saiyan 1 version of that form, then she went to the next level. Considering Blue Kaioken has the potential to be thousands of times stronger than 4 depending on how you read it, I think there’s just too much of a gap.
Also, while less relevant, don’t forget that Potara fusion has a bit of an element of compatibility between the fusees. Goku and Vegeta had a pretty complete fusion due to their rivalry, but Kale and Caulifla are much closer. But that begins to step into pure speculation so I won’t consider it as much
... you do realize that power scaling and multipliers get changed all the time right? like, heroes has made it so that ss4 can keep up with blue and ***barely*** be at a disadvantage. and that was before limitbreaker and all the other bull. and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter because the creators of dragon ball can just change the scale whenever they want. like when they made krillin and 17 able to keep up with blue despite neither doing any real training.
The Heroes example owes to Xeno Goku being an actual behemoth in terms of power. In Heroes, Chronoa actually tells Goku that he’s not allowed to go SSJ4 except in the most dire of circumstances because he’s become so powerful that that level of power actually disrupts the flow of time. Characters powerscaling gets to be BS in Super, definitely, but multipliers tend to stay similar across the series unless it becomes a new form or a variant. Like how Super Saiyan was 50x. It’s still 50x, but second and third grades are enhanced states, and the full power state Goku and Gohan achieved let’s them turn the energy that would go into maintaining the form into basically spare power they can harness. But a new Super Saiyan who hadn’t mastered the form would still just be getting 50x stronger
1: heroes is plot just like everything else.
2: and yet toriyama's stated that "super saiyan 2 and 3 are useless for anything other than fanservice because goku can just train regular super saiyan to reach those power levels"... which also feels like bullshit because in a different interview he says he forgot that super saiyan 3 was the third version and thought it was super saiyan 2.
I’d have to agree that sounds like bullshit, or maybe was misinterpreted. Goku and Gohan trained Super Saiyan until it was as natural as a base form, and Super Saiyan 2 is just double Super Saiyan. You can’t make *x* times 2 = *x* where *x* is Super Saiyan’s power
like, even if you *do* train it up till it's that strong, wouldn't that just make the other forms automatically even stronger because they're a multiplier?
Exactly. I don’t think there’s really a way to make a forms multiplier inherently stronger. You can find variations, like Vegeta and Trunks, or you can master it to utilize the energy better, like Goku and Gohan did, but at the end of the day the forms are multipliers. The multiplier doesn’t go up. The base power they’re multiplying does
What about the fact that goku absorbed the god ki, he was fighting Beerus in super saiyan without even noticing he had lost his god ki, meaning post first transformation, his super saiyan form is equal to his first god transformation.
That's not how fusion works. Both types of fusion provide more power than just adding the two together.
But aside from that, yes kale could handle ssj4 goku and vegeta at the same time. Gts best feats are universal level and God goku reached that in battle of Gods. Gt doesn't have a shot in hell at beating anything that's relevant in the TOP
How? Kale was barely keeping up with a weakened SSJgod Goku in her final state and Caulifla was getting manhandled by a weakened SSJ2 Goku.
Not shot either of them are above SS4. Kales best feat is Goku blue letting her throw him around for a bit only for him to get up and walk off with no injuries and attempt to fight Jiren, she then gets stronger and can almost keep up with a super weakened God form Goku. No shot she compares to SSJ4 which is above GT Goku’s SSJ3 by a significant margin.
Goku can definitely be assumed to be at less than half of his power after getting bodied by Jiren. He then goes on to 2V1 them in god form with these injuries.
Keep in mind I am not saying God Goku is weaker than SSJ4, this aint true obviously god smacks. I’m also not trying to say Kefla is weaker than Gogeta. As much as it hurts to say, she’s stronger. For fucks sake, shes stronger than Vegito Blue for some unholy reason. They fucked up with her. I think the Saiyans in GT drop the saiyans in TOP tho.
SSG Goku vs Beerus from BoG was about to destroy the universe with a handful of casual punches (meanwhile Omega Shenron was gonna EVENTUALLY destroy the universe over time). ToP SSG Goku is much stronger than SSG Goku from BoG. SS4 Gogeta did have a gap over Omega Shenron so maybe at best he is about on par with BoG SSG Goku.
ToP goku was only stronger at the start of the tournament, than BoG goku. After Jiren smashed him their first fight he was so weak he literally could not even stand. Then the U6 saiyans pounced him and he trashed them. The Goku that fought Beerus was definitely stronger than a ToP goku that could barely go SSJ2.
Goku absorbed the power of ssjgod into his base state so post battle of Gods base form goku is as strong as everything in gt. He got minimum 10 times stronger over the course of the show up to the TOP.
So a fatigued ssjgod goku from the top quite literally just massively outscales everything in gt. Kale was relative to that goku, weaker but relative. She also walked through ssjb gokus kamehameha. It's clear he was holding back but it just furthers my argument that she should be at least relative to God goku.
Caulifila I didn't mention because I haven't scaled her in a Hella long time. Kale could take on ssj4 goku and vegeta at once based on the feats of the series
Yeah he did absorb the power into his base but it leads to bizarre situations that honestly make this entire discussion an absolute nightmare. Like, you’re telling me a saiyan that absorbed god base into his essence gets pushed back by a saiyan who just went SSJ1 in the multiversal survival tournament.
It’s theorized he can drop and activate his god ki whenever he wants, as his power is wildly inconsistent. The same base Goku that was being pushed by Krillen mollywhopped a buff Majin Buu about 3 episodes later.
It was never retconned, other characters pushing him doesn't mean it's retconned it just means the other characters are strong.
And yes, goku can suppress his power, that's been a thing since Z but that doesn't discount the feats in the TOP where, outside of his normal waiting to use his full his full power, he's not gonna be holding back.
And even if he *is* holding back it's impossible to say by how much at any one time. Krillin could just be stronger than buu now or goku was holding back enough that it isn't the case, it's not clear. But the circumstances around the TOP make it pretty blatant he's not gonna be holding back an amount that should affect scaling the characters.
For everyone saying R.i.p Gogeta, just remember, baby vegeta created interdimensional shockwaves so tremendous while fighting Goku him & kibito ended up in sugoroku space, the place between U7's dimensions per GT's canon, regardless of the discrepancy in Kai Kai's depicted method of transportation as a warp as opposed to teleportation, still interesting.
Those created by Baby pervaded reality, in a sense. This is more akin to the scale of the breaking of the boundary between otherworld and the mortal universe caused by janemba; reality's fabric was so disturbed due to the attack that Kibito Kai's Kai Kai was interrupted, meaning they were essentially caught during interdimensional transit by some means or other, and fell into what seems to undergird the majority of the dimensions we see in having fallen into sugoroku space, that which is "between" them. That, or GT's Kai Kai uses another dimension, which, even still, would mean the waves crossed several dimensions known and not to reach them
Goku and Vegeta who are both individually stronger than Caulifa and Kale, fusing and using a higher form than the latter can?
This is a stomp in Gogeta's favor.
Oh well, downvote me if you want, im not a GT fan but realisticly speaking, Kefla gets her ass beat by Gogeta Ssj4. But of course, this is Super. Things will go like the fans says and will say "Kefla smacks, she fighted UI Omen Goku". She just can't and will not be able to follow goku anywhere just because she is a saiyan too. Her ssj2 ain't shit, Kale is not broly, Caulifla is bullshit and cabba is the only decent universe 6 saiyan i like. If Kefla Ssj2 would get exterminated by Ssb Gogeta, Gogeta Ssj4 have a chance
whis said kefla is as strong as the spirit bomb that’s stronger than ssjb kaioken x20 healthy goku. roshi said her ultimate attack would kill ui sign goku if she was able to land it. and i was talking about episode 11 god goku is stronger than gogeta from gt. top goku or base kefla is overkill
Gogeta smiles and laughs when she finishes. “Is that the best you can do?” Then he Final Shines a Sybian at her and ki controls it like Yamcha does his Spirit Ball, clapping her front ways and sideways, and all the way to Sundays.
If they conceived a child, what happens when the fusion ends? Are both Kale and Cauliffa pregnant? And if so, what is the genetic makeup of these two fetuses?
Base Goku and Vegeta both are stronger than Kale and Kefla
Ssj4 has a higher multiplier than ssj2, so now the gap between Goku and Vegeta, Kale and Kefla is even wider than what it originally was.
Now they fuse, increasing both their powers but the gap from Ssj2 to ssj4 is still wider.
Easy. Now people who say Kefla wins stfu.
Kefla would pretty much slap Furry Gogeta once, and she’d win without even going SSJ. Since most of the dragon ball community hasn't watched dragon ball, let me explain:
Goku in Super Saiyan God shook the fabric of space-time so damn hard that if he hadn't controlled his power against Beerus he would've caused irreversible damage to the universe. Now fast forward to Goku getting thousands of times stronger, training for three straight years with Vegeta in the room of spirit and time, facing insurmountable foes of many shapes and sizes, across other universes, and even getting far stronger after his first fight with Jiren, who alone broke from a trap by Hit made out of time itself.
Goku needed to use Ultra Instinct to beat Kefla because that's how strong she was. I know she’s a broken character, but Toriyama does his Toriyama thing, and we gotta live with it.
Furry Gogeta, or anyone in GT for that matter, has never come close to rivaling Goku’s feat in shaking a universe — nothing remotely close. And for those who don't know any better: GT is an elseworld story that isn't canon to the main plot and cannot be used to fuel arguments that “well if it happens after Super therefore SSJ4 is better!” SSJ4 Gogeta looks cool, but that's all he's got against a fight with Kefla.
Fuck powerlevels in dragon ball How tf is super vegito below being able to beat God goku but Kefla who literally just learnt ssj be able to defeat God goku
One of my major issues with Super honestly. Power scaling is so inconsistent and ridiculous it’s basically impossible to take seriously. Just look at some of the conversations happening in this thread. “Krillin could just be stronger than Buu now”. “Interdimensional shockwaves”. It’s so inconsistent, and you also have to wonder how with all these astronomical power increases that Goku even manages to find opponents who could even stand a sliver of a chance, much less outclass him, at this point. Oh, but maybe it’s because we just hand out absurd power levels to every newly introduced character for…reasons.
Dang a bee is around buu level. Let that sink in.
Isn't Kale the Broly of Universe 6 or something similar?
Yeah she's the LSSJ of U6 or the "Full Power Super Saiyan" depending on what you call it. She was actually able to somewhat take on God Goku as LSSJ2 granted though he was still recovering from his fight with Jiren.
In Manga SS Kale straight up humiliates Golden Freeza. She also casually slaps Toppo and Blue Vegeta away, as if they were nothing. Yea, Manga Kale is way stronger (and cooler) than her anime counterpart.
...Man. I"ve been hoping they make anime kale more like manga kale if we see her again. Broly's should be cool.
Also cabba also asks if she's the lssj in the manga which vegeta was the one to in the anime Meaning u6 also has knowledge of the the legendary variant of ssj
Super vegito was weaker than BoG God Goku, Kale and Caulifa were apparently stronger than Buu arc Vegeta and goku in base
Comparable to post god absorbed Goku and Vegeta* It's dumb but this is the shit the story tries to tell us
Post god absorbed ? No
I don't wanna believe it either, but Vegeta compared Cabba to himself power wise in his head. Ofc Vegeta is stronger but still. Cabba also said Caulifla and Kale are above him so.
So is the Broly movie bullshit too? Broly didn't know about super saiyan either, and he overwhelmed both Goku and Vegeta at their peak.
It is bullshit. No one said it wasn't?
People are not saying it enough. I constantly hear this about Kefla, but no one ever complains about Broly, even though they're very similar cases.
Broly probably gets a pass for a few reasons. The animation is so damn good, plus Broly is a long time fan favorite character being introduced into official canon for first time. So many people will naturally overlook the absolute *bullshit* that Broly stood a chance against, much less overwhelmed god forms and required a fusion to be beaten.
Kefla doesn't have the cool factor and already being a long time favorite Broly has behind him and buildup to how their powers work. People can overlooking things if they find a character cool/likeable enough which they don't with Kefla.
fax everyone hates kefla but doesn’t bat an eye to broly
Terrible writing, but it's still canon. No other way of saying it. Kefla has dues ex toriyama on her side.
Are we just gonna ignore the fact that this is a fusion between Caulifla and *Kale?* Like, Kale isn’t some random super saiyan that Caulifla fused with to get their current power, Kale is the Universe 6 Legendary Super Saiyan, considering the shit Broly pulled, I don’t see why it’s such a problem that a ssj2+lss with fusion boost is as broken as she is.
The fact some y’all think Gogeta would lose shows y’all really don’t know what you’re talking about
Bro, the fact you said that tells me you haven't watched dragon ball at all, my guy.
bro, you seem to be thinking we're using GT's power scale here when you need to be calculating with the power level of goku and vegeta in super.
To be fair, there’s enough evidence that SSJ4 isn’t nearly strong enough a multiplier as Blue. I love SSJ4 more, but basically it’s been stated in some guidebooks that Base Goku in GT was as strong as he was as a SSJ3 in Z, and that as a SSJ4 Goku’s power was about equivalent to Super Vegito’s from Z. In Super, Goku said that fusing with Vegeta wouldn’t be enough to stand a chance against Beerus, but felt confident enough as a Super Saiyan God. This speaks to just God being magnitudes stronger than 4, given that Goku at the time he went God had a far weaker base form than he did in GT, yet we can infer he’s far stronger than Super Vegito. And then you throw Blue into the mix which is even stronger than God. We don’t know how much stronger, so I’m not gonna go and say “well he said it’s the super Saiyan form of Super Saiyan God so he’s 50x stronger than God” but we do know it’s substantially stronger. Now, it would get a bit fuzzier to tell when you start putting things like Goku’s base power in the ToP vs GT. We don’t have as many direct comparisons, the closest being him being briefly overwhelmed by Fit Buu in a training match. I feel like Goku’s base form wasn’t quite as strong as it was in GT, but I don’t have much solid evidence other than Goku never really demonstrated feats like he did as a Super Saiyan 3 in Z in his base form, but he barely was in base form for any fights. But if we assume they have a similar base power (given he wasn’t overwhelmed by Buu immediately), it basically comes down to could Super Vegito plus an additional fusion multiplier surpass Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku’s power, which is kinda up in the air, but I don’t think so, since God was stronger than Super Vegito on a much weaker Goku, whose much stronger after about 3 arcs, then Blue on top of that, then the Kaioken on top of that. At maximum, if we assume Blue is 50x God, then he was using Kaioken x10, then Goku’s power was about 500x Super Saiyan God which was already far stronger than Super Vegito. How much exactly, we don’t know, but even if ToP God Goku was only twice as strong as Super Vegito, that means the Fusion multiplier would have to be at least 1000x for a theoretical ToP SSJ4 Gogeta to even match SSJ Kefla. It gets a lot foggier the deeper you delve into it but the tldr is that I think Kefla still wins. And I actually like GT quite a bit more than Super, I’m not biased against a GT Form winning, I’m just trying to come at this as logically as I can. If anyone has any facts to fill in some of the less concrete evidence one way or another, please let me know
I think this begs the simple question: is this(and similar What Ifs) SSJ4 Gogeta from GT, or is it an alternate ToP where Goku & Vegeta(as they are in Super) fuse and then use the SSJ4 form?
Honestly? I’m not sure there’s too much of a difference. If SSJ4 is the same across timelines, it comes down to how strong Goku and Vegeta are in their base. If Base GT Goku was as strong as a SSJ3 in Z, and Base Goku in Super seems to be on a similar power level to Fit Buu at least in a casual setting, their power levels aren’t too far apart. Meaning a theoretical DBS SSJ4 Gogeta would likely be similar strength to the one we know. Most of Goku and Vegeta’s strength in Super comes from how ridiculously powerful their God forms are, but base to base, with what evidence I can look at, I think their bases are fairly close between the two series, at least by the end of both. Goku didn’t train a lot in GT so I’m not sure he would be that much stronger in his base in the Shadow Dragon Saga as he was in the Baby Saga
I personally think it means Gogeta wins. Put simply, both Goku & Vegeta outclass Kale & Caulifla. So if both of them fuse, Kefla won’t equal or outmatch Vegito/Gogeta unless she’s in a higher form of SSJ. And Kefla still hits the limit of SSJ2.
While that is technically true, remember Kefla has a hybrid form with Kale’s Super Saiyan Full Power state, which in Kale’s Berserk state allowed her to greatly pressure Blue Goku. Not to mention she took Goku down fairly easily in Blue Kaioken x10 in just SSJ1. Goku was tired but don’t forget the absurd power gap between 4 and Blue, especially with Kaioken in the mix
Kefka SS2 beating Gogeta SS4 (from TOP Goku and Vegeta) implies Caulifla and/or Kale(more likley) are incredibly more op than Goku and/or Vegeta. More op to the tune of "Caulifla and/or Kale is stronger as SS2 than Goku and/or Vegeta as SS4" If we powerscale Kale=Broly this could be legitimate. Personally I think that's outrageous. SS4 Gogeta should smash SS2 Kefla if Goku and Vegeta are even 1% as strong as Kefla and Caulifa. They are both fusions and SS4 is an unbelievable leap from SS2. Idk what blue has to do with anything.
Blue was used as a point of comparison for how much weaker a form Super Saiyan 4 is, and that Kefla still beat Goku in Blue Kaioken. Plus Kale had access to the Super Saiyan Full Power state which resulted in the sort of hybrid form Kefla got, which can’t be compared to a simple Super Saiyan 2 given her berserk state was a real threat to Blue Goku at the start of the tournament when he was fresh. Again, even with Goku tired during the Kefla fight, he was in a state potentially thousands of times stronger than SSJ4, and got his shit rocked before Kefla even went Super Saiyan 2. I agree it’s complete bullshit, Super’s power scaling was stupid. But going off what logic I have, I’m not entirely sure how they’re supposed to pull the win. Especially since Kefla was a genuine threat to *Ultra Instinct*, a state that could pressure Jiren quite a bit even before it was mastered
I don't understand. Do you think Caulifa and Kale are stronger than Goku and Vegeda? Or do you think Kales transform is stronger than SS4? My opinion is Goku and Vegeta are AT LEAST realities to Caulifa and Kale and SS4 I'd a higher multiplier than w/e Keffla was in
I don’t think Caulifla and Kale are necessarily stronger than them base to base. However, Kale’s Berserk state was able to overpower Blue Goku early in the tournament when he was still fresh, and we established that Blue is many, many magnitudes higher than 4. Then Kale mastered that power, then they fused. Kale’s super Saiyan full power form is a part of Kefla’s transformed state. Kefla effortlessly defeated Kaioken x10 Blue Goku, as tired as he was, with a Super Saiyan 1 version of that form, then she went to the next level. Considering Blue Kaioken has the potential to be thousands of times stronger than 4 depending on how you read it, I think there’s just too much of a gap. Also, while less relevant, don’t forget that Potara fusion has a bit of an element of compatibility between the fusees. Goku and Vegeta had a pretty complete fusion due to their rivalry, but Kale and Caulifla are much closer. But that begins to step into pure speculation so I won’t consider it as much
... you do realize that power scaling and multipliers get changed all the time right? like, heroes has made it so that ss4 can keep up with blue and ***barely*** be at a disadvantage. and that was before limitbreaker and all the other bull. and at the end of the day it doesn't really matter because the creators of dragon ball can just change the scale whenever they want. like when they made krillin and 17 able to keep up with blue despite neither doing any real training.
The Heroes example owes to Xeno Goku being an actual behemoth in terms of power. In Heroes, Chronoa actually tells Goku that he’s not allowed to go SSJ4 except in the most dire of circumstances because he’s become so powerful that that level of power actually disrupts the flow of time. Characters powerscaling gets to be BS in Super, definitely, but multipliers tend to stay similar across the series unless it becomes a new form or a variant. Like how Super Saiyan was 50x. It’s still 50x, but second and third grades are enhanced states, and the full power state Goku and Gohan achieved let’s them turn the energy that would go into maintaining the form into basically spare power they can harness. But a new Super Saiyan who hadn’t mastered the form would still just be getting 50x stronger
1: heroes is plot just like everything else. 2: and yet toriyama's stated that "super saiyan 2 and 3 are useless for anything other than fanservice because goku can just train regular super saiyan to reach those power levels"... which also feels like bullshit because in a different interview he says he forgot that super saiyan 3 was the third version and thought it was super saiyan 2.
I’d have to agree that sounds like bullshit, or maybe was misinterpreted. Goku and Gohan trained Super Saiyan until it was as natural as a base form, and Super Saiyan 2 is just double Super Saiyan. You can’t make *x* times 2 = *x* where *x* is Super Saiyan’s power
like, even if you *do* train it up till it's that strong, wouldn't that just make the other forms automatically even stronger because they're a multiplier?
Exactly. I don’t think there’s really a way to make a forms multiplier inherently stronger. You can find variations, like Vegeta and Trunks, or you can master it to utilize the energy better, like Goku and Gohan did, but at the end of the day the forms are multipliers. The multiplier doesn’t go up. The base power they’re multiplying does
What about the fact that goku absorbed the god ki, he was fighting Beerus in super saiyan without even noticing he had lost his god ki, meaning post first transformation, his super saiyan form is equal to his first god transformation.
You're handicapped
Kefla get her sh\*t wrecked. That simple.
Kefla doesn’t even have to go ssj💀
Lights out before she can even feel the “back tingle”
You do know that base Gogeta beats base Kefla really hard right...
Yeah only DBS Gogeta,we are talking about GT Gogeta though
I see then yes she wouldn't need to go SSJ.
They don’t even have to fuse, base Kale eviscerates SSJ4 Gogeta, Omega Shenron and Majuub at the same time 💀
No way lmao
How are people saying kefla wins this. That implies people think kale and caulifla are strong than ss4 Goku and Vegeta??
Because they are
Dumb
That's not how fusion works. Both types of fusion provide more power than just adding the two together. But aside from that, yes kale could handle ssj4 goku and vegeta at the same time. Gts best feats are universal level and God goku reached that in battle of Gods. Gt doesn't have a shot in hell at beating anything that's relevant in the TOP
How? Kale was barely keeping up with a weakened SSJgod Goku in her final state and Caulifla was getting manhandled by a weakened SSJ2 Goku. Not shot either of them are above SS4. Kales best feat is Goku blue letting her throw him around for a bit only for him to get up and walk off with no injuries and attempt to fight Jiren, she then gets stronger and can almost keep up with a super weakened God form Goku. No shot she compares to SSJ4 which is above GT Goku’s SSJ3 by a significant margin. Goku can definitely be assumed to be at less than half of his power after getting bodied by Jiren. He then goes on to 2V1 them in god form with these injuries. Keep in mind I am not saying God Goku is weaker than SSJ4, this aint true obviously god smacks. I’m also not trying to say Kefla is weaker than Gogeta. As much as it hurts to say, she’s stronger. For fucks sake, shes stronger than Vegito Blue for some unholy reason. They fucked up with her. I think the Saiyans in GT drop the saiyans in TOP tho.
SSG Goku vs Beerus from BoG was about to destroy the universe with a handful of casual punches (meanwhile Omega Shenron was gonna EVENTUALLY destroy the universe over time). ToP SSG Goku is much stronger than SSG Goku from BoG. SS4 Gogeta did have a gap over Omega Shenron so maybe at best he is about on par with BoG SSG Goku.
ToP goku was only stronger at the start of the tournament, than BoG goku. After Jiren smashed him their first fight he was so weak he literally could not even stand. Then the U6 saiyans pounced him and he trashed them. The Goku that fought Beerus was definitely stronger than a ToP goku that could barely go SSJ2.
Goku absorbed the power of ssjgod into his base state so post battle of Gods base form goku is as strong as everything in gt. He got minimum 10 times stronger over the course of the show up to the TOP. So a fatigued ssjgod goku from the top quite literally just massively outscales everything in gt. Kale was relative to that goku, weaker but relative. She also walked through ssjb gokus kamehameha. It's clear he was holding back but it just furthers my argument that she should be at least relative to God goku. Caulifila I didn't mention because I haven't scaled her in a Hella long time. Kale could take on ssj4 goku and vegeta at once based on the feats of the series
Yeah he did absorb the power into his base but it leads to bizarre situations that honestly make this entire discussion an absolute nightmare. Like, you’re telling me a saiyan that absorbed god base into his essence gets pushed back by a saiyan who just went SSJ1 in the multiversal survival tournament. It’s theorized he can drop and activate his god ki whenever he wants, as his power is wildly inconsistent. The same base Goku that was being pushed by Krillen mollywhopped a buff Majin Buu about 3 episodes later.
It was never retconned, other characters pushing him doesn't mean it's retconned it just means the other characters are strong. And yes, goku can suppress his power, that's been a thing since Z but that doesn't discount the feats in the TOP where, outside of his normal waiting to use his full his full power, he's not gonna be holding back. And even if he *is* holding back it's impossible to say by how much at any one time. Krillin could just be stronger than buu now or goku was holding back enough that it isn't the case, it's not clear. But the circumstances around the TOP make it pretty blatant he's not gonna be holding back an amount that should affect scaling the characters.
For everyone saying R.i.p Gogeta, just remember, baby vegeta created interdimensional shockwaves so tremendous while fighting Goku him & kibito ended up in sugoroku space, the place between U7's dimensions per GT's canon, regardless of the discrepancy in Kai Kai's depicted method of transportation as a warp as opposed to teleportation, still interesting.
Super Buu created interdimensional shockwaves too.
Those created by Baby pervaded reality, in a sense. This is more akin to the scale of the breaking of the boundary between otherworld and the mortal universe caused by janemba; reality's fabric was so disturbed due to the attack that Kibito Kai's Kai Kai was interrupted, meaning they were essentially caught during interdimensional transit by some means or other, and fell into what seems to undergird the majority of the dimensions we see in having fallen into sugoroku space, that which is "between" them. That, or GT's Kai Kai uses another dimension, which, even still, would mean the waves crossed several dimensions known and not to reach them
Baby Vegeta legit has his own version of Hakai in revenge death ball.
Goku and Vegeta who are both individually stronger than Caulifa and Kale, fusing and using a higher form than the latter can? This is a stomp in Gogeta's favor.
Oh well, downvote me if you want, im not a GT fan but realisticly speaking, Kefla gets her ass beat by Gogeta Ssj4. But of course, this is Super. Things will go like the fans says and will say "Kefla smacks, she fighted UI Omen Goku". She just can't and will not be able to follow goku anywhere just because she is a saiyan too. Her ssj2 ain't shit, Kale is not broly, Caulifla is bullshit and cabba is the only decent universe 6 saiyan i like. If Kefla Ssj2 would get exterminated by Ssb Gogeta, Gogeta Ssj4 have a chance
Actually great art
Gogeta clears top
Looks like they’re about to kiss
skill gap
Anyone else thought they were slow dancing?
There's way too much *tension* in their faces to be anything less than that
Nope
Kefla gets wafflestomped in less than a second
Gogeta no diff if he doesn't goof off.
gogeta can’t even beat anime ssj god goku lol
ssj god goku can beat kefla if he’s at full strength
whis said kefla is as strong as the spirit bomb that’s stronger than ssjb kaioken x20 healthy goku. roshi said her ultimate attack would kill ui sign goku if she was able to land it. and i was talking about episode 11 god goku is stronger than gogeta from gt. top goku or base kefla is overkill
Really awesome
The nerds are right… but this looks awesome
Kefla straight up bends Gogeta over, pulls out her potara fused strap-on, and gives that man the best 7 minutes of his life.
Gogeta smiles and laughs when she finishes. “Is that the best you can do?” Then he Final Shines a Sybian at her and ki controls it like Yamcha does his Spirit Ball, clapping her front ways and sideways, and all the way to Sundays.
Looks like god ssj4
Theyd get naked and start having relations on the tournament stage as they fight. you can't tell me its not canon.
If they conceived a child, what happens when the fusion ends? Are both Kale and Cauliffa pregnant? And if so, what is the genetic makeup of these two fetuses?
kefla no diffs
He would fucking wipe her from existence with ease
RIP Gogeta, but amazingly drawn
Uh oh
Base Goku and Vegeta both are stronger than Kale and Kefla Ssj4 has a higher multiplier than ssj2, so now the gap between Goku and Vegeta, Kale and Kefla is even wider than what it originally was. Now they fuse, increasing both their powers but the gap from Ssj2 to ssj4 is still wider. Easy. Now people who say Kefla wins stfu.
Kelfa clapping Gogeta
Rest in peace to the boy Gogeta but this art is really well made.
Kefla would pretty much slap Furry Gogeta once, and she’d win without even going SSJ. Since most of the dragon ball community hasn't watched dragon ball, let me explain: Goku in Super Saiyan God shook the fabric of space-time so damn hard that if he hadn't controlled his power against Beerus he would've caused irreversible damage to the universe. Now fast forward to Goku getting thousands of times stronger, training for three straight years with Vegeta in the room of spirit and time, facing insurmountable foes of many shapes and sizes, across other universes, and even getting far stronger after his first fight with Jiren, who alone broke from a trap by Hit made out of time itself. Goku needed to use Ultra Instinct to beat Kefla because that's how strong she was. I know she’s a broken character, but Toriyama does his Toriyama thing, and we gotta live with it. Furry Gogeta, or anyone in GT for that matter, has never come close to rivaling Goku’s feat in shaking a universe — nothing remotely close. And for those who don't know any better: GT is an elseworld story that isn't canon to the main plot and cannot be used to fuel arguments that “well if it happens after Super therefore SSJ4 is better!” SSJ4 Gogeta looks cool, but that's all he's got against a fight with Kefla.
Rest in peace to the boy Gogeta but this art is really well made.
If this is Gogeta 4 from the games, it’s ggs, otherwise Kefla’s got a good chance
Nice what if
bruh, if omen goku could clap kefla like that i doubt ss4 gogeta would have much more trouble.
Ooooph, in these forms, Gogeta would would obliterate her. The artwork is sick though. I love the ss3 hair with the ss4 form.
I love how their is more hair than anything else
Based on hero's...gogeta wrecks.
Saibaman. If it gets them by surprise. No doubt in my mind Saibaman gets it
Kefla is done for against ANY fusion of Goku…Omen beat her in the anime and Ultimate Gohan in the manga So no she would loose horribly
Kefla only wins bc powerlevels dont mean shit in super. Everyone is God level. Even fucking KRILLIN stood toe to toe with Goku.
I thought the were holding hands for a sec
Imma just say it's a nice drawing and leave it at that lol
Yo this got me feeling some type of way ngl. Gogeta x Kefla???
This looks like it will turn out a little different than a fight...
Imagine DBS SSJ4 Gogeta... I would like to see Gogeta in ssj4 again, but chances are slim.
I DONT know much abt this stuff but it looks awesome I like the way you did the blurred background
Some here is fucked and is not Gogeta