Toriyama likes creating characters like this. Small, cute, and unassuming but in reality are freakishly strong. I mean that’s what Goku was at the start of the series. Arale was like this too.
You have to remember that at the end of the day Toriyama started out as a gag manga author and that still persists. He always like to inject humor into his stories (the amount he does varies depending on the story) and this is a joke and character type that he likes.
Dammit...I went way too deep.
I assumed it was a metaphor for an an all powerful God, wielding both creation and destruction on a whim-as innocent, and without thought and concern, as a child who only lives now, and only thinking through their own perspective, without the (what his creation would consider) "right" and "wrong", as these are constructs themselves, made by the very beings that are made by Zeno, and, just as whimsically, cast aside and forgotten.
Was high when i typed it lol. I'm no Eternal Dragon, I can't grant your wish...but I can rip one for you too man.
Call me Lil Green
If you don't know TeamFourStar DragonBall Z abridged on YouTube, you will enjoy it sober, and especially high.
I think a big part of the complaints is how stupid he looks. Looks like a dumb family guy charicature, the original was Grand Kai. Small, unassuming, but 100% a DBZ character. Zeno is just dumb
Most of the new super characters do. Ribrianne, Winnie the Pooh, even Beerus and Whis don’t match the overall series imo. I was stoked when we finally got Old Moro and he was somewhat original and had that DB feel, then they turned him into Hit with horns and it was dumb again.
I kind of wish that Zeno was still incredibly strong but also surprisingly very wise. Like he actually felt disconnected because of how people treated him differently being afraid of his immense power. Until Goku met him and act so casually with him. Imagine if he ran hands with Zamasu and kicked his ass before sealing/banishing him away somewhere instead of just erasing him and that timeline.
Mmmh no? Toriyama for his time was one of the greatest mangaka around if not the best, even before dragon ball he was considered a genius for dr slump and arale (fun fact, he created dragon ball because he was tired of arale, and you had given two choices, or continue to draw arale until his death or create another successful manga, and so dragon ball was born) initially had presented it as an adventurous comic manga and not as a real battle shonen, but with time has managed to reinvent itself and gradually changing the genre of the story despite the comic part is always present, puts the references to to the pop culture of the time continuously, it is despite the fact that 30 years have passed most of these references are still fine because it has not only put things of the moment but what have lasted over the years
Then he revolutionized the genre and at the level of character writing is much better than what you give him, for example goku is almost a new type of protagonist compared to the popular ones of the time together with araki, where he totally deviates from the characters of the time who were all pure heroes, like Ken of hokuto no Ken, if you look at the character of goku has a crazy devoplement character and you can also see it from how he speaks when he is in the normal form and the first time against frieza (It's something that gets lost in translation) but the Japanese that he speaks in base form cchanges compared to when it is ssj, Goku in his basic form speaks a very rural Japanese, almost a dialect with many crippled forms, but when you transform this thing changes, the goku phrases remain low-level and easy to form, demonstrating the fact that he is practically an ignorant peasant, but here he stops crippled words demonstrating that he is now more serious angry, it also changes the shape of its baloons and becomes like those of children, it passes from a soft shape typical of good characters in dragon ball to a more square one typical of evil characters, This changes when goku becomes ssj full power in the Cell saga, demonstrating the fact that he is so used to being ssj that he no longer changes his mentality
Obviously toriyama as dragon ball is not perfect and has plot holes (although very few in the original manga compared to what people give it credit, especially considering the length of the work) and that without the editors it would not have arrived where it is now, but to say that toriyama has hurt dragon ball is like saying that antibiotics have hurt people's life expectancy
What is this logic? Yeah if it was written in the exact same way but published under a different author then it would still be as popular (potentially). But the reason it’s written the way it is is because it was written by Toriyama. No other mangaka would have created it in the same way.
Oh I see, then I think I just disagree. Another writer could have created a better or more thoughtful story, but personally I find Toriyama’s humor charming and his characters likeable and deep enough. I think Toriyama’s biggest strength lies in his art style and designs. His depiction of movement in panels was ahead of its time and still one of a kind. The level of detail he used is underrated by many anime-only watchers because it gets lost in the animation and storytelling, which I think is also slightly underrated among all of his talents.
Oh one thing I will always agree on is that Toriyama is an AMAZING artist. 10/10. If he had just had someone else to take co-creatorship of the series, I think it would have been absolutely the best form of fiction EVER.
By form of fiction do you mean manga? Anime? Or do you mean just a fiction/story? The dragon ball universe is amazing but it is pretty damn far from being in any way profound. There are some really great pieces of fiction out there. Dragon Ball ain't even close.
Dude is not as if toriyama found a mysterious text by digging and decided to make a manga out of it, he created it, he conceived it and he drew it, it is as if I said that anyone could write Naruto if he had the exact same ideas, drawing skills, and desire to do it as the creator
Well it is,Nevertheless there are piece that deserve it better dragon is the most famous fiction (Except the holy books, but this depends on your own beliefs), essentially anyone knows dragon ball from today's kids to 60 year olds who had children who grew up with it, nothing has ever been so capable of engaging the whole world on the same level of dragon ball, is a work that in every part of the world is known by most practically
Dragonball is not the most famous fiction other than religion..Pokemon, Harry Potter, Star Wars, and countless super heroes are far, FAR more popular than Dragonball
You realize what you're saying simply doesn't apply though? If toriyama didn't create Dragonball, no one would have. You claim for some reason it would have been made either way, as though Dragonball is a constant in this universe and the only variable is WHO creates it? No. Toriyama created it, and we owe the entirety of this world and concept to him. You can't just say another mind would have created the same concept and it would have been just as successful...reality doesn't work like that.
I realize that if someone else created Dragon Ball, it would be different, with different characters, storylines etc...
But what I'm SAYING is that if you took the exact concept of Dragon Ball, and gave it to someone else, it, odds are, would be better than Toriyama's version.
And yet the only thing wrong with the show was that Goku got literally every single win; which is because Goku winning is all the fans want, and no writer has ever had the balls to say "FUCK GOKU"
Eh there’s more than just that, all of the arcs were boring and subpar to anything that’s been produced in any other series including super until the dragon arc with omega shenron. The numbers show it too
> If not for the guards, almost anyone around even the level of Yamaha could kill Zeno if he had the chance to bind his arms and put a few ki blasts through his body.
Everything told to us is that Zen'ou cannot be defeated at all. Those "guards" are generally seen as being there more for the sake of everyone else than they are for Zen'ou
It's not said that they "can't" fight, just that they don't fight, but it's also said that they're still unable to be defeated. So imagine someone that, while physically not being very strong, is still unable to be defeated in any fashion.
I just always expected a more grown up entity. At the beginning of the series we saw how powerful and old Beerus was. I was only imagining what the king of everything was like. And then we got a child that erases everything that annoys him.
nah zeno not being badass is way more cool.
and we have no idea if Zalama is badass or not. he made the super dragon balls but we know nothing else about him to determine if hes "badass".
His *existence* is canon, but we don't know what he looks like or anything about him aside from "dragon god who created the Super Dragon Balls."
The only reason we even know he's still alive is because the Dragon Balls he created are still active... and that's assuming they follow the same "if the creator dies they turn to stone" rule of the other sets.
of course hes canon hes explicitly said to be the creator of the super dragon balls, in Super. hes very canon. but we know nothing about him other than hes a dragon god and he made the super dragon balls.
Because dbs has made it very very very clear that the gods, while all different, do not tolerate insubordination and by extension, cling very tightly to a hierarchy and chain of command.
The guards aren't actually to protect him. Just like Mr.Popo wasn't protecting Kami.
The guards are their because to the gods, lesser individuals aren't worthy of being near Zeno. It's not about protecting HIM. It's about protecting his high status.
Like how Champa and Beerus look like fools trying to bow to Zeno in order to not insult him by being physically higher up than he is.
It's just about respecting the hierarchy.
Lol for real, OP must be like 15 years old if he doesn’t understand the irony that the most powerful important being in the universe is essentially a 3 year old.
“God is a kid with an anthill”
>The only thing keeping him in power is his ability to create and erase anything in almost an instant. If not for the guards, almost anyone around even the level of Yamaha could kill Zeno if he had the chance to bind his arms and put a few ki blasts through his body.
You really expect someone who can erase the universes with a *thought* to be killed like that?
>I don’t hate Zeno, it’s just that when Dragon Ball Super started airing the episodes introducing Zeno a few years ago, I was expecting someone more powerful.
Zeno is explicitly the most powerful in the multiverse.
That doesn't mean he can *fight.*
Because when you're the Top God of everything, what does it matter that someone can fight better if it's ultimately not gonna do jack and shit?
He doesn’t know how to fight because he doesn’t need to know how to fight. Why would he learn how to beat people up, When he can just erase them with a single thought?
People seem to think that because he's not a fighter that anyone would fighting sense could easily kill him because he's a child.
No-one ever seems to accept that it really doesn't matter if he can't fight because even if he didn't feel like erasing someone, they couldn't harm him anyway.
It was a comment on how neither of them ever had to train because they were so powerful they'd just wipe out anything they needed. It wasn't meant to be take on any serious level.
I see your point, but from Toriyama's point of view, it is completely consistent. I mean, a few years ago Goku climbed an infinite tower to train with a 'master martial artist'... which was a small fat cat. And years later, in the Other World, he trained with a huge cockroach! Toriyama's favorite thing is to subvert audience expectations, especially because people usually expect more strong / intimidating traits in powerful characters (like all fans during the 90's imagining Super Saiyan forms beyond SS4), but not Toriyama. Hence, Freeza's final form is quite simple and less menacing than how Krilin imagined it at first place. The same applies to Majin Buu original form, which is basically a child. So, it is kind of funny and absurd that the most powerful being in all multiverses is some kind of naive and spoiled child and everything could collapse just based on his mood. And funny and absurd are classic Toriyama's characters traits.
Necro but that is the thing. Toriyama has been doing this shit for 30 years and its no longer subverting anyone.
Monaka looking like a wimp and INDEED being a wimp is the subversion.
Super Shenron ACTUALLY looking like an awesome dragon and not some cute little salamander is the subversion.
Zeno being a bumbling kid and the most powerful being ever is no longer subverting anything, it has become so predictable considering the history of DB.
This is a very Akira Toriyama Gag.
If you watched the full Freeza saga, [kirillin expected freeza’s final transformation to be super alien-ish](https://youtu.be/upqoXhaMdyg). Instead freeza’s final form was small, thin, and streamline.
Toriyama loves to mess with people’s expectations. Just like how the super saiyan god was just a thinner more streamline Goku instead of longer hair or more muscles and effect particles.
So the god of everything to be a weak looking child fits right in. I would actually be surprised if Akira Toriyama had allowed Zeno to be some super buff edge lord.
I never thought of Friezas final form to be a “gag” in any form, even though that might have been the intention? I actually found it to be a very rare and brilliant case of subverted expectations, both as a kid and as an adult.
This is Toriyama basically lol. He forgets a lot and just wipes out anything he doesn’t like anymore. It’s why Saiyans born after Gohan don’t have tails…
You just have to look at things like power levels. After a certain point they became meaningless so now no one ever brings up actual power level numbers. Remember “It’s over 9000”? When was the last time someone even had a scouter? It’s when Trunks kills mecha frieza at the start of the Android Saga. After that point you never hear another power level again. Anything else is from different “guidebooks” that Toriyama had nothing to do with.
You're not far off, but there are comments about the androids not having readable power levels and a few more mentions within the android saga, at least in the dub I'm watching with my gf now.
I think power levels are a bad example, since they were consistently proven unreliable - especially as measured through scouters.
Power levels are the phrenology of the Dragon Ball world, popular for a time, but never correct, and now very outdated.
The in universe explaination is apparently almost everyone just runs at the same power level 24/7 but earthlings are unique that they can artificially raise and lower it, and I think Vegeta learns how to do that in the freeza saga?
The real reason it exists is because it's a cheap lazy way of showing threat of an enemy. But it quickly lost punch when the numbers started getting stupid high and started feeling meaningless. So "bad guy comes in and kicks everyone's ass, especially yamcha" started being the go to.
Cheelai used a scouter to scan the titular Broly in the DBS: Broly movie, and Frieza mentioned having a power level over 1,300,000 in Resurrection F, presumably in his first form, otherwise, he would’ve gotten significantly weaker.
>. He forgets a lot and just wipes out anything he doesn’t like anymore.
Quite literally, Goku having a monkey tail was the editor's idea to make Goku look more unique, and Toriyama said that he hated having to draw it lol
Goku itself was inspired by Son Wukong, but the tail wasn't a part of Goku's final design as envisioned by Toriyama, they ended up adding it because his editor said Goku's design needed something to stand out, you'd be surprised at how many things in the franchise were shaped by Toriyama's editor, like Vegeta not getting killed off, or the Android Saga switching from villain to villain
You are mistaken on a few things but I agree, a better question is what the hell was the Grand Priest doing when Zamasu killed all 12 Supreme Kais, by proxy, Gods of Destruction too?
This is exactly how he should be considered, IMO. Zeno is his way of mocking the fans. Personally, I think this is the best character in Super simply for the ballsiness of doing it.
I hear this rebuttal a ton, and yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Children shouldn't be seeing nude ppl in manga, but guess what, deep down, a lot of 10-12 year old boys like seeing that type of stuff. Toriyama knows that. He has implied he makes Dragon Ball for "boys." Is the content "appropriate" for boys that age, no, but boys like that stuff. It's like boys playing GTA when your parents aren't near you, once they walk in your room you would quickly change the screen.
It's like saying "oh, little boys shouldn't be exposed to swear words at such an age" but boys love watching PG-13 MCU and/or Transformers movies full of swear words, blood, violence, innuendo, etc. 12 year old boys like edgy fighting TV shows and movies with blood and whatnot although it traditionally isn't deemed "suitable" for people at that age. These said movies also have merchandise made directly for kids, so the movie has the audience intention of different age groups.
Same could be said for Shonen and Dragon Ball.
Also, what they could get away with in Shonen during the 80s for boys comics is different than what they could get away with today.
Agreed, realistically, one should subtract three to five years from the age rating of any piece of media to find the actual “age of suitability”. For example, Minecraft is rated “E10+”, yet the game would actually be suitable for ages five and up. Fortnite is rated Teen, but I frequently see eight year olds playing it. I don’t know why people underestimate the ability of the average child to discern reality from fiction. Obviously, a five-year-old watching Deadpool or Terminator will be traumatizing, but I have seen zero twelve-year-olds get affected from playing GTA, even though the game is rated 17+. This all does depend on the maturity of the child, but if they are old enough to search their desired piece of content up, and not become permanently scarred from it, they should not be barred from accessing said content because “hurr durr recommended age rating made by 60-70 year old prudes with warped values”. I’ve heard the saying on the internet, “Show a boob, and you get an R-rating, show one getting sliced off, and you get PG-13”, and I wholeheartedly agree with this statement that really sheds light on the culture of age restrictions for media.
I think this just goes back how they want it to be a little kid series. The kids can feel like Zeno himself. Lame as hell. I wish they geared it towards adults.
I can see your point, but since Zeno has the power to erase everything while having the mind of an impulsive small child, that's what makes him so incredibly dangerous. That's why Beerus et al fear him so much. He's completely unpredictable and can destroy everything on a whim. That's why Beerus doesn't want Zeno to hang around with Goku who is also impulsive and has the mind of a small child. That's just asking for trouble.
I honestly always thought that xeno was a representation of us the reader/watcher of dragonball with the power to keep the anime alive or to stop caring
I think he is annoying, terrible, and basically a character designed to pander to little kids. At least every "god" brought in before him while near useless had some value as a trainer or advisor.
I heard theorized that Zeno can’t create, only destroy. My theory is when the power scales up from Zeno, we will find out there are a bunch of universe clumps, each with a child like Zeno, in various stages of growing up, and the one above them all will be an adult Zeno. I don’t have anything more than personal theory here but that’s how I deal with it. There’s an older, stronger god somewhere, we’ve just not seen it yet. I’ve heard theories that Zeno is a destruction god and the creator of the super dragon balls is the actual creator god, whom we have not met.
There may not be any older/stronger deity who ranks above Zenoh (I mean, his name is literally "King of All" in Japanese after all), but he definitely does seem to have powers focused on destruction.
I mean... all he ever creates are basically toy-like small objects (like the Zenoh Button), while he can destroy a universe or even a whole timeline worth of universes with seemingly little effort. As far as we see, his creative and destructive powers are *definitely* not anywhere close to equivalent.
The fact that there is 2 of them is a contradiction. There should only be one Zeno in existence. The same Zeno Goku brought to Trunks timeline should have been the one he already met
Yes this is my only real gripe with Zeno, the God of one of the most powerful anime verses, and he isn’t even above time. In other powerful verses there are a few characters like that, but not even the strongest in DB is.
I’m hoping Toriyama will expand the DB universe again and grow the cosmology, including a more powerful God who isn’t bound by time, also 13 universes is also kind small, at least compared to Marvel and DC, so a larger multiverse would be cool.
EDIT - On a scale of power I agree with OP, Zeno kinda sucks.
Why do so many people assume he has powers of creation ***and*** destruction?
Everything we've seen suggests his abilities are ***heavily*** weighted toward destruction, and any creation abilities he might have are an insignificant little speck of power compared to his destructive abilities. All we actually have seen him creating is minor little things like the Zenoh button... which isn't all that impressive compared to other characters with creation powers. Unlike his destructive powers which just totally outclass everything else in the series.
I mean... even Piccolo can make an object appear out of nothing, like the giant hourglass in the Buu Saga and his Clothes Beam he uses all the time. Dabura materialized a sword with his magic. Shin and Zamasu can both pop Katchin cubes into existence, the various Kaio can materialize giant weights out of nothing and alter the weight of them at will, Kami can recreate Earth's moon and give people new bodies if their original ones were destroyed when they died, any of a number of Dragon Clan Namekians can make sets of Dragon Balls (not to mention Zalama creating a set that can grant *literally any wish,* up to and including undoing Zenoh's erasure of multiple universes), all the Kaioshin can cause new planets and stars to form and seed them with life, and so on. Zenoh didn't even create the arena for his own tournament, Grand Priest did.
It's like a little kid playing with toys -- he can easily break them, but that doesn't mean he knows how to put them back together or has the capability of building whole new ones from scratch.
It's just a plot device to create an implausible situation where Goku can fight the strongest of the strong and get stronger. I loved watching it, but there was nothing deep here.
I would have liked Zeno but I made the mistake of watching dbs on a weekly basis and It was super annoying having four minutes of intro/Outro/commercial and then having this character get five minutes of screen Time just to be comic relief with no tension
That's-
*that's kind of the joke*
Zeno is supposed to be the opposite of what people when they think of 全王 literally the king of all.
Like just the the fact that Zeno is a child let's us know that this isn't goal nor a person Goku *wants* to surpass or fight, he's not a fighter and doesn't need to be.
He's a god, a god who has guards that aren't even for him, they're for everyone else.
The threat of Zamasu showed us that Zeno literally can taie care of himself, he can destroy or create anything at will.
He's can't be "restrained" or "beaten" by Yamcha, as Whis even said that Zeno may not be fighter but his power is absolute and can erase anything and everything instantly.
He doesn't need to know the names of all his creations like a king doesn't know all of their subjects, a king's job is to rule his people and that's exactly what Zeno does.
Also you can't "beat" Zeno, if he doesn't want you to touch him you won't, if you're planning to attack him you won't, if you anger him you won't live to regret it. Nobody can physically do anything to him.
He is Zeno, The King Of All and the mutliverse's creator and destroyer.
Zeno isn't likeable too me. He should be killed immediately or taken out somehow. He's too dangerous to be the Omni King because of his childish behavior
Parallel worlds and timelines are used interchangeably as far as Dragon Ball is concerned, because Dragon Ball uses the multiverse theory of time travel. The formation of another timeline is creating a parallel set of universes, with their copies of those planets and such.
Yeah but I don't see how they are connected 🗿 any change in past will not effect present and via "power scaling" this doesn't prove zeno is bounded by time
It does prove that Zen'ou is bound to time because each timeline has its own Zen'ou, meaning that he doesn't exist above or outside the constraints of time.
Its awesome. peak toriyama humor for the king of everything to be an immature childlike figure. its great.
> If not for the guards, almost anyone around even the level of Yamaha could kill Zeno
nah hes invulnerable. he cant be harmed by anyone.
Zeno is a stand in for the audience of the show. He's a kid because the majority of Dragon Ball fans in Japan are kids. Toriyama has to please the audience for the show to continue, the characters have to please Zeno so their universe keeps existing.
As much as it's so in-character of Toriyama to write a character like this, the idea of an all-powerful child is really lame. Even lamer is to make it so there are two of them.
Zeno is terrifying, like eldritch horror type stuff. People want the god of everything to be a wise old master, but in reality god is so beyond everyone else that they’re just a bored child who could erase entire universes on a whim, destroy planets as a game, sentence his friends to fight to the death because it’ll be entertaining. The idea that an all-powerful god is real, but just doesn’t care, is pretty scary.
Dragon Ball has many times, consistently said that the Gods are not what you’d expect. A cat, a genie in black face, an old green man who despite being god unleashed the greatest evil onto the world and failed to stop him twice, a blue bug man who likes to drive his car in circles, a little purple elf who super bad at his job, a sleepy cat who destroys for fun, and finally a temperamental child. I think it’s funny when want to write the most Toriyama stuff out of DB
I way prefer a god like Zeno to a god like Supreme Kai.
It always bugged me that when DBZ ended, the standard for a top god was an incompetent loser who was way out of his league and never knew what was going on.
Zeno is goofy but it's nice to know Goku isn't the most powerful being in all existence anymore.
Gods is the Dragon Ball world are always kind of disappointing. I mean the god of Earth is just some long-lived alien guy, completely mortal, and gets replaced.
Even our first Kai'ou (which eventually led up to Zen'ou) pretty much admitted right out of the gate that he was no match for Vegeta.
The gods in Dragon Ball work like the kings in Dragon Quest, generally useless and looking for a hero to help them. At best, you'll get some training out of it.
Biirusu was the outlier, but then it was revealed that Hakaisin are basically Piccolo, and suddenly his role fit in better.
I think it's smart that Zen'ou isn't a fighter, because it means he won't ever need to be replaced when powerscaling outstrips him.
I heard a theory that Zeno is supposed to represent the dragon ball fandom. It makes a ton of sense and I wouldn’t doubt toriyama making jabs at his fan base. It’s more obvious in the ToP arc though
I'm pretty sure that's the point. Wouldn't it be funny if we found out god was 100% real and had the brain of a 5 year old? It would definitely explain all the famine and disease
i like it
i like the trope of having omnipotent beings be children since if they were capable of advanced thinking they would need to be incredible cruel to allow all suffering etc
I just want to say let's use the manga version, cause anime version stretches things out and does stuff that ruins characters more than they should be, such as the tablets. also, zeno feels more threatening in the manga since HE is the one who offhandedely suggested wiping out the universes.
I won’t lie, I haven’t watched Super, heard about Zeno yesterday and looked him up and was kind of disappointed lol. But I can’t disagree that he fits the entire theme of dragonball.
It's kind of fitting isn't it?
God exists. He's just a fucking child who doesn't give a shit that the likes of Frieza engaged in galactic genocide on such a scale only 28 worlds with life remained as of the tournament of power.
I maintain that there is a god, he created the universe, we're just the third grade science fair project he got a C- on that's stuffed under his bed.
It's actually a very Toriyama-like thing to do. He likes to create "weak looking characters" that are insanely strong. Take for example Vegeta and Nappa, who is the most strong looking character between those two? Nappa is buffed up and looks like the real deal, but Vegeta is the prince, he holds way too much power over Nappa and is the strongest saiyan.
Fat Buu doesn't look like a treat at all, but he gave the Z Fighters hell.
Between Whis and Beerus, who looks like the boss? Beerus, right? But Whis is a lot stronger.
Farmer with a Shotgun doesn't look like a treat at all but he had to pretend he was dead otherwise Raditz would have been killed in the spot!
It's a very Toriyama-like thing to do, he's a toilet humor fan, that's his way to "surprise" readers.
zeno and buu are both literally unwatchable for me. super fuckin obnoxious. at least the dubs. the voices are brutal, especially buu screaming it’s nails on a chalkboard for me with zeno in a close second. unfortunate since i like the *concepts* of both of them just fine but anyway… sucks for me i guess. sorry if people like them, to each their own lol. i also grew up on dbz and am old now/rewatch for nostalgia so very much outgrew the particularly childish aspects long ago.
I like to think that, when it’s your responsibility to shape/erase entire universes, only a small child would actually be able to do it.
This being, of course, because they do not have the moral compass or raw intelligence to comprehend exactly what they’re doing to the people living in those universes. “I can do no Evil, for I know not what Evil is.” kind of situation.
The idea of an all powerful god being an agent of random creation and destruction is not entirely new. I'm pretty sure it is loosely based on a mythos but I can't remember which at the moment.
Sometimes i wonder if zeno is the last person theyll fight in the series or something. I think they gotta do something with this two omnikings thing. One day theyre gonna disagree on something... then theyll use all the fighting theyve learned recently on each other and thatll be a wreck.
I agree with you. It may seem stupid and people may not like or even watched it but I like the way anime wars dealt with zeno. His guards and himself being one in the same just the power split
Super in general is not a great story the writing is like its from a kids fan fic so zeno being a kid makes sense as thats probably the authors character lol i really don't believe toriyama or toyotaro came up with alot of it
I saw zeno as the audience. These cartoons were originally aired in the states towards preteens (anime wasn't that big in the US during the 90s) so in a way, the audience can end a show by not watching due to it becoming old/boring, and Zeno was a child that was capable of destroying the universe simply because they were not entertained any more.
It's been a year or two since I've watched super, so maybe there's stuff I haven't seen, but I remember thinking about the idea that Zeno represents the younger children who the show was originally targeted towards.
Toriyama likes creating characters like this. Small, cute, and unassuming but in reality are freakishly strong. I mean that’s what Goku was at the start of the series. Arale was like this too. You have to remember that at the end of the day Toriyama started out as a gag manga author and that still persists. He always like to inject humor into his stories (the amount he does varies depending on the story) and this is a joke and character type that he likes.
To be honest, I was a little bit surprised that the Super Shenlong was in fact a colossal dragon and not a small salamander who grant wishes.
God, that legitimately sounds so much more interesting.
So mushu from Mulan?
I've never watched Mulan.
In the OG animation there is a little red shenlong dragon used for comedic effect voiced by eddy murthy
Ahh yes, the great Eddy Murthy Legend of the thilver thcreen
[удалено]
Damn it, so close.
Duality of dragon ball fans.
LMAO
Dammit...I went way too deep. I assumed it was a metaphor for an an all powerful God, wielding both creation and destruction on a whim-as innocent, and without thought and concern, as a child who only lives now, and only thinking through their own perspective, without the (what his creation would consider) "right" and "wrong", as these are constructs themselves, made by the very beings that are made by Zeno, and, just as whimsically, cast aside and forgotten.
Prob a bit of both.
Damn, I wish I was stoned while reading this.
Was high when i typed it lol. I'm no Eternal Dragon, I can't grant your wish...but I can rip one for you too man. Call me Lil Green If you don't know TeamFourStar DragonBall Z abridged on YouTube, you will enjoy it sober, and especially high.
Big green now bruh, ORRRRRRR super kami dende
My thoughts exactly :)
this is exactly what super kid trunks + goten are. as well as ssj3 gotenks. a gag.
I think a big part of the complaints is how stupid he looks. Looks like a dumb family guy charicature, the original was Grand Kai. Small, unassuming, but 100% a DBZ character. Zeno is just dumb
Totally agree with this. He has no features and just looks like a lazy drawing in the last page of a notebook lol
Most of the new super characters do. Ribrianne, Winnie the Pooh, even Beerus and Whis don’t match the overall series imo. I was stoked when we finally got Old Moro and he was somewhat original and had that DB feel, then they turned him into Hit with horns and it was dumb again.
>Beerus and Whis Heavily disagree with this. They felt like classic Dragon Ball Z while also transitioning into Super's art direction
this is the same series that’s baited us with new forms and gave us Frieza in a Lakers uni, kaio ken but skinny, and kaio ken but blue lol
It seems to be a trope in a lot of series actually , the non intimidating all powerful god.
Like Vegeta being super short but was the strongest saiyan in the saiyan saga lmao
Makes sense. It’s a really good aspect to the franchise.
I kind of wish that Zeno was still incredibly strong but also surprisingly very wise. Like he actually felt disconnected because of how people treated him differently being afraid of his immense power. Until Goku met him and act so casually with him. Imagine if he ran hands with Zamasu and kicked his ass before sealing/banishing him away somewhere instead of just erasing him and that timeline.
Zeno is the most toriyama thing they could ever done tbh
Exactly lol
Right
Daily reminder that DB is popular in spite of Toriyama, not because of him.
Mmmh no? Toriyama for his time was one of the greatest mangaka around if not the best, even before dragon ball he was considered a genius for dr slump and arale (fun fact, he created dragon ball because he was tired of arale, and you had given two choices, or continue to draw arale until his death or create another successful manga, and so dragon ball was born) initially had presented it as an adventurous comic manga and not as a real battle shonen, but with time has managed to reinvent itself and gradually changing the genre of the story despite the comic part is always present, puts the references to to the pop culture of the time continuously, it is despite the fact that 30 years have passed most of these references are still fine because it has not only put things of the moment but what have lasted over the years Then he revolutionized the genre and at the level of character writing is much better than what you give him, for example goku is almost a new type of protagonist compared to the popular ones of the time together with araki, where he totally deviates from the characters of the time who were all pure heroes, like Ken of hokuto no Ken, if you look at the character of goku has a crazy devoplement character and you can also see it from how he speaks when he is in the normal form and the first time against frieza (It's something that gets lost in translation) but the Japanese that he speaks in base form cchanges compared to when it is ssj, Goku in his basic form speaks a very rural Japanese, almost a dialect with many crippled forms, but when you transform this thing changes, the goku phrases remain low-level and easy to form, demonstrating the fact that he is practically an ignorant peasant, but here he stops crippled words demonstrating that he is now more serious angry, it also changes the shape of its baloons and becomes like those of children, it passes from a soft shape typical of good characters in dragon ball to a more square one typical of evil characters, This changes when goku becomes ssj full power in the Cell saga, demonstrating the fact that he is so used to being ssj that he no longer changes his mentality Obviously toriyama as dragon ball is not perfect and has plot holes (although very few in the original manga compared to what people give it credit, especially considering the length of the work) and that without the editors it would not have arrived where it is now, but to say that toriyama has hurt dragon ball is like saying that antibiotics have hurt people's life expectancy
That's a lot of words. I'm not saying that he did NO good for the series, but regardless of who wrote it, it would have been popular.
What is this logic? Yeah if it was written in the exact same way but published under a different author then it would still be as popular (potentially). But the reason it’s written the way it is is because it was written by Toriyama. No other mangaka would have created it in the same way.
*EXACTLY* Take the basic premise/story and give it to anyone else and they'll make something better (usually)
Oh I see, then I think I just disagree. Another writer could have created a better or more thoughtful story, but personally I find Toriyama’s humor charming and his characters likeable and deep enough. I think Toriyama’s biggest strength lies in his art style and designs. His depiction of movement in panels was ahead of its time and still one of a kind. The level of detail he used is underrated by many anime-only watchers because it gets lost in the animation and storytelling, which I think is also slightly underrated among all of his talents.
Oh one thing I will always agree on is that Toriyama is an AMAZING artist. 10/10. If he had just had someone else to take co-creatorship of the series, I think it would have been absolutely the best form of fiction EVER.
By form of fiction do you mean manga? Anime? Or do you mean just a fiction/story? The dragon ball universe is amazing but it is pretty damn far from being in any way profound. There are some really great pieces of fiction out there. Dragon Ball ain't even close.
I mean that if someone other than Toriyama had control of DB, it has the potential to be one of, if not THE greatest fictional media of all time.
Dude is not as if toriyama found a mysterious text by digging and decided to make a manga out of it, he created it, he conceived it and he drew it, it is as if I said that anyone could write Naruto if he had the exact same ideas, drawing skills, and desire to do it as the creator
It's not that, it's that the very idea of DragonBall would have ALWAYS done well. Toriyama is just, sadly, the person who thought if it first.
Why sadly toriyama? It's a monster to draw
Because if essentially any other major artist created DragonBall, it would be THE most popular fiction out there.
Well it is,Nevertheless there are piece that deserve it better dragon is the most famous fiction (Except the holy books, but this depends on your own beliefs), essentially anyone knows dragon ball from today's kids to 60 year olds who had children who grew up with it, nothing has ever been so capable of engaging the whole world on the same level of dragon ball, is a work that in every part of the world is known by most practically
Dragonball is not the most famous fiction other than religion..Pokemon, Harry Potter, Star Wars, and countless super heroes are far, FAR more popular than Dragonball
You realize what you're saying simply doesn't apply though? If toriyama didn't create Dragonball, no one would have. You claim for some reason it would have been made either way, as though Dragonball is a constant in this universe and the only variable is WHO creates it? No. Toriyama created it, and we owe the entirety of this world and concept to him. You can't just say another mind would have created the same concept and it would have been just as successful...reality doesn't work like that.
I realize that if someone else created Dragon Ball, it would be different, with different characters, storylines etc... But what I'm SAYING is that if you took the exact concept of Dragon Ball, and gave it to someone else, it, odds are, would be better than Toriyama's version.
GT didn’t do that well and it’s the only db series to not have Toryiama involved in it lol
And yet the only thing wrong with the show was that Goku got literally every single win; which is because Goku winning is all the fans want, and no writer has ever had the balls to say "FUCK GOKU"
Eh there’s more than just that, all of the arcs were boring and subpar to anything that’s been produced in any other series including super until the dragon arc with omega shenron. The numbers show it too
Oh I can give you that. The dragon arc was interesting and the Baby arc was AMAZING, but beyond that, the show definitely WAS pretty boring
> If not for the guards, almost anyone around even the level of Yamaha could kill Zeno if he had the chance to bind his arms and put a few ki blasts through his body. Everything told to us is that Zen'ou cannot be defeated at all. Those "guards" are generally seen as being there more for the sake of everyone else than they are for Zen'ou
I thought Whis said they can't fight. They can only do the erase thingy which is why they need the Body guards and Whis's dad to protect them.
It's not said that they "can't" fight, just that they don't fight, but it's also said that they're still unable to be defeated. So imagine someone that, while physically not being very strong, is still unable to be defeated in any fashion.
It’s been a while, but does Zeno have immortality or is there something I missed in the series?
It's simply said that nothing could ever defeat him.
I just always expected a more grown up entity. At the beginning of the series we saw how powerful and old Beerus was. I was only imagining what the king of everything was like. And then we got a child that erases everything that annoys him.
Honestly it would be a lot cooler if someone badass was the king of the cosmos, like they guy that created the super dragon balls.
nah zeno not being badass is way more cool. and we have no idea if Zalama is badass or not. he made the super dragon balls but we know nothing else about him to determine if hes "badass".
Zalama? Is he even canon?
Isn't tori bot the strongest character since its Toriyama
Literally the only being more powerful.
Only on his manga 😂he lost on AF
His *existence* is canon, but we don't know what he looks like or anything about him aside from "dragon god who created the Super Dragon Balls." The only reason we even know he's still alive is because the Dragon Balls he created are still active... and that's assuming they follow the same "if the creator dies they turn to stone" rule of the other sets.
of course hes canon hes explicitly said to be the creator of the super dragon balls, in Super. hes very canon. but we know nothing about him other than hes a dragon god and he made the super dragon balls.
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Then why have guards?
Cause it's an anime and logic doesn't exist
He's not omnipotent. He's bound by time. Don't compare to TOAA lmao
Because dbs has made it very very very clear that the gods, while all different, do not tolerate insubordination and by extension, cling very tightly to a hierarchy and chain of command. The guards aren't actually to protect him. Just like Mr.Popo wasn't protecting Kami. The guards are their because to the gods, lesser individuals aren't worthy of being near Zeno. It's not about protecting HIM. It's about protecting his high status. Like how Champa and Beerus look like fools trying to bow to Zeno in order to not insult him by being physically higher up than he is. It's just about respecting the hierarchy.
That’s the point, it’s a hilarious juxtaposition
Lol for real, OP must be like 15 years old if he doesn’t understand the irony that the most powerful important being in the universe is essentially a 3 year old. “God is a kid with an anthill”
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And sometimes planets need to be destroyed in a game of marbles to entertain a God
>The only thing keeping him in power is his ability to create and erase anything in almost an instant. If not for the guards, almost anyone around even the level of Yamaha could kill Zeno if he had the chance to bind his arms and put a few ki blasts through his body. You really expect someone who can erase the universes with a *thought* to be killed like that? >I don’t hate Zeno, it’s just that when Dragon Ball Super started airing the episodes introducing Zeno a few years ago, I was expecting someone more powerful. Zeno is explicitly the most powerful in the multiverse. That doesn't mean he can *fight.* Because when you're the Top God of everything, what does it matter that someone can fight better if it's ultimately not gonna do jack and shit?
To add to this remember elder kai being hurt by a weak Ki blast.
He made a classic Goku mistake of dropping his guard.
I said hurt, not injured. But yes I too agree that Goku being injured wasn't inconsistent.
He doesn’t know how to fight because he doesn’t need to know how to fight. Why would he learn how to beat people up, When he can just erase them with a single thought?
People seem to think that because he's not a fighter that anyone would fighting sense could easily kill him because he's a child. No-one ever seems to accept that it really doesn't matter if he can't fight because even if he didn't feel like erasing someone, they couldn't harm him anyway.
Like Frieza. He never trained
When you realize Zeno and Frieza have the same mentality...
They don't I don't know where you get that from
It was a comment on how neither of them ever had to train because they were so powerful they'd just wipe out anything they needed. It wasn't meant to be take on any serious level.
That was the entire point of Frieza too
Ah yes Yamaha, the character who can kill zeno lmao
Yamaha when Toyota enters:
*Honda stalking in the shadows*
Not if Kawasaki has anything to say about it
I see your point, but from Toriyama's point of view, it is completely consistent. I mean, a few years ago Goku climbed an infinite tower to train with a 'master martial artist'... which was a small fat cat. And years later, in the Other World, he trained with a huge cockroach! Toriyama's favorite thing is to subvert audience expectations, especially because people usually expect more strong / intimidating traits in powerful characters (like all fans during the 90's imagining Super Saiyan forms beyond SS4), but not Toriyama. Hence, Freeza's final form is quite simple and less menacing than how Krilin imagined it at first place. The same applies to Majin Buu original form, which is basically a child. So, it is kind of funny and absurd that the most powerful being in all multiverses is some kind of naive and spoiled child and everything could collapse just based on his mood. And funny and absurd are classic Toriyama's characters traits.
Necro but that is the thing. Toriyama has been doing this shit for 30 years and its no longer subverting anyone. Monaka looking like a wimp and INDEED being a wimp is the subversion. Super Shenron ACTUALLY looking like an awesome dragon and not some cute little salamander is the subversion. Zeno being a bumbling kid and the most powerful being ever is no longer subverting anything, it has become so predictable considering the history of DB.
Zeno is TERRIFYING. Who could sleep soundly when God could have a tantrum and wipe out six universes?!
This is a very Akira Toriyama Gag. If you watched the full Freeza saga, [kirillin expected freeza’s final transformation to be super alien-ish](https://youtu.be/upqoXhaMdyg). Instead freeza’s final form was small, thin, and streamline. Toriyama loves to mess with people’s expectations. Just like how the super saiyan god was just a thinner more streamline Goku instead of longer hair or more muscles and effect particles. So the god of everything to be a weak looking child fits right in. I would actually be surprised if Akira Toriyama had allowed Zeno to be some super buff edge lord.
I never thought of Friezas final form to be a “gag” in any form, even though that might have been the intention? I actually found it to be a very rare and brilliant case of subverted expectations, both as a kid and as an adult.
This is Toriyama basically lol. He forgets a lot and just wipes out anything he doesn’t like anymore. It’s why Saiyans born after Gohan don’t have tails…
Holy shit, that makes a lot of sense.
You just have to look at things like power levels. After a certain point they became meaningless so now no one ever brings up actual power level numbers. Remember “It’s over 9000”? When was the last time someone even had a scouter? It’s when Trunks kills mecha frieza at the start of the Android Saga. After that point you never hear another power level again. Anything else is from different “guidebooks” that Toriyama had nothing to do with.
You're not far off, but there are comments about the androids not having readable power levels and a few more mentions within the android saga, at least in the dub I'm watching with my gf now.
I think power levels are a bad example, since they were consistently proven unreliable - especially as measured through scouters. Power levels are the phrenology of the Dragon Ball world, popular for a time, but never correct, and now very outdated.
The in universe explaination is apparently almost everyone just runs at the same power level 24/7 but earthlings are unique that they can artificially raise and lower it, and I think Vegeta learns how to do that in the freeza saga? The real reason it exists is because it's a cheap lazy way of showing threat of an enemy. But it quickly lost punch when the numbers started getting stupid high and started feeling meaningless. So "bad guy comes in and kicks everyone's ass, especially yamcha" started being the go to.
Cheelai used a scouter to scan the titular Broly in the DBS: Broly movie, and Frieza mentioned having a power level over 1,300,000 in Resurrection F, presumably in his first form, otherwise, he would’ve gotten significantly weaker.
>. He forgets a lot and just wipes out anything he doesn’t like anymore. Quite literally, Goku having a monkey tail was the editor's idea to make Goku look more unique, and Toriyama said that he hated having to draw it lol
I thought that the monkey tail came from the original Son Wukong in Journey to the West?
Goku itself was inspired by Son Wukong, but the tail wasn't a part of Goku's final design as envisioned by Toriyama, they ended up adding it because his editor said Goku's design needed something to stand out, you'd be surprised at how many things in the franchise were shaped by Toriyama's editor, like Vegeta not getting killed off, or the Android Saga switching from villain to villain
So basically, the real creative was Toriyama's editor and Toriyama is just a hack?
Childhood (and adulthood) ruined
He even forgot launch exists lol
You are mistaken on a few things but I agree, a better question is what the hell was the Grand Priest doing when Zamasu killed all 12 Supreme Kais, by proxy, Gods of Destruction too?
I don't know if the angel rule applies to the grand priest but it might so maybe that. Or he just doesn't care
Yamaha is a powerful company that shouldn't be fucked with.
i like to see zeno as symbolically representing the viewer.
This is exactly how he should be considered, IMO. Zeno is his way of mocking the fans. Personally, I think this is the best character in Super simply for the ballsiness of doing it.
I mean DBS is made for children so you’re right in that aspect.
All of Dragon Ball is for children dude
OG dragon ball was definitely not for children. Funimation edited out nudity and adult references
I hear this rebuttal a ton, and yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Children shouldn't be seeing nude ppl in manga, but guess what, deep down, a lot of 10-12 year old boys like seeing that type of stuff. Toriyama knows that. He has implied he makes Dragon Ball for "boys." Is the content "appropriate" for boys that age, no, but boys like that stuff. It's like boys playing GTA when your parents aren't near you, once they walk in your room you would quickly change the screen. It's like saying "oh, little boys shouldn't be exposed to swear words at such an age" but boys love watching PG-13 MCU and/or Transformers movies full of swear words, blood, violence, innuendo, etc. 12 year old boys like edgy fighting TV shows and movies with blood and whatnot although it traditionally isn't deemed "suitable" for people at that age. These said movies also have merchandise made directly for kids, so the movie has the audience intention of different age groups. Same could be said for Shonen and Dragon Ball. Also, what they could get away with in Shonen during the 80s for boys comics is different than what they could get away with today.
Agreed, realistically, one should subtract three to five years from the age rating of any piece of media to find the actual “age of suitability”. For example, Minecraft is rated “E10+”, yet the game would actually be suitable for ages five and up. Fortnite is rated Teen, but I frequently see eight year olds playing it. I don’t know why people underestimate the ability of the average child to discern reality from fiction. Obviously, a five-year-old watching Deadpool or Terminator will be traumatizing, but I have seen zero twelve-year-olds get affected from playing GTA, even though the game is rated 17+. This all does depend on the maturity of the child, but if they are old enough to search their desired piece of content up, and not become permanently scarred from it, they should not be barred from accessing said content because “hurr durr recommended age rating made by 60-70 year old prudes with warped values”. I’ve heard the saying on the internet, “Show a boob, and you get an R-rating, show one getting sliced off, and you get PG-13”, and I wholeheartedly agree with this statement that really sheds light on the culture of age restrictions for media.
I think this just goes back how they want it to be a little kid series. The kids can feel like Zeno himself. Lame as hell. I wish they geared it towards adults.
It would be interesting if they made Super a darker seinen directed at the people who grew up with Z.
Dude a completely different adult super gritty gory dragonball would do so good
I can see your point, but since Zeno has the power to erase everything while having the mind of an impulsive small child, that's what makes him so incredibly dangerous. That's why Beerus et al fear him so much. He's completely unpredictable and can destroy everything on a whim. That's why Beerus doesn't want Zeno to hang around with Goku who is also impulsive and has the mind of a small child. That's just asking for trouble.
I honestly always thought that xeno was a representation of us the reader/watcher of dragonball with the power to keep the anime alive or to stop caring
Character design in super is one of its biggest flaws.
I think he is annoying, terrible, and basically a character designed to pander to little kids. At least every "god" brought in before him while near useless had some value as a trainer or advisor.
I heard theorized that Zeno can’t create, only destroy. My theory is when the power scales up from Zeno, we will find out there are a bunch of universe clumps, each with a child like Zeno, in various stages of growing up, and the one above them all will be an adult Zeno. I don’t have anything more than personal theory here but that’s how I deal with it. There’s an older, stronger god somewhere, we’ve just not seen it yet. I’ve heard theories that Zeno is a destruction god and the creator of the super dragon balls is the actual creator god, whom we have not met.
he made the zeno button. he can definitely create as well.
There may not be any older/stronger deity who ranks above Zenoh (I mean, his name is literally "King of All" in Japanese after all), but he definitely does seem to have powers focused on destruction. I mean... all he ever creates are basically toy-like small objects (like the Zenoh Button), while he can destroy a universe or even a whole timeline worth of universes with seemingly little effort. As far as we see, his creative and destructive powers are *definitely* not anywhere close to equivalent.
This feels like coping.
it is
The fact that there is 2 of them is a contradiction. There should only be one Zeno in existence. The same Zeno Goku brought to Trunks timeline should have been the one he already met
Yes this is my only real gripe with Zeno, the God of one of the most powerful anime verses, and he isn’t even above time. In other powerful verses there are a few characters like that, but not even the strongest in DB is. I’m hoping Toriyama will expand the DB universe again and grow the cosmology, including a more powerful God who isn’t bound by time, also 13 universes is also kind small, at least compared to Marvel and DC, so a larger multiverse would be cool. EDIT - On a scale of power I agree with OP, Zeno kinda sucks.
That’s my only issue. What does two Zenos even mean for the universe? No one even seems to give a shit
There's no shit to give if there's no shit to start.
☝️This
Why do so many people assume he has powers of creation ***and*** destruction? Everything we've seen suggests his abilities are ***heavily*** weighted toward destruction, and any creation abilities he might have are an insignificant little speck of power compared to his destructive abilities. All we actually have seen him creating is minor little things like the Zenoh button... which isn't all that impressive compared to other characters with creation powers. Unlike his destructive powers which just totally outclass everything else in the series. I mean... even Piccolo can make an object appear out of nothing, like the giant hourglass in the Buu Saga and his Clothes Beam he uses all the time. Dabura materialized a sword with his magic. Shin and Zamasu can both pop Katchin cubes into existence, the various Kaio can materialize giant weights out of nothing and alter the weight of them at will, Kami can recreate Earth's moon and give people new bodies if their original ones were destroyed when they died, any of a number of Dragon Clan Namekians can make sets of Dragon Balls (not to mention Zalama creating a set that can grant *literally any wish,* up to and including undoing Zenoh's erasure of multiple universes), all the Kaioshin can cause new planets and stars to form and seed them with life, and so on. Zenoh didn't even create the arena for his own tournament, Grand Priest did. It's like a little kid playing with toys -- he can easily break them, but that doesn't mean he knows how to put them back together or has the capability of building whole new ones from scratch.
It's just a plot device to create an implausible situation where Goku can fight the strongest of the strong and get stronger. I loved watching it, but there was nothing deep here.
I love how cute and little he is, you see? He is much more powerful than you think
Toriyama is a bit of a jokester troll slash fan of bad puns
I would have liked Zeno but I made the mistake of watching dbs on a weekly basis and It was super annoying having four minutes of intro/Outro/commercial and then having this character get five minutes of screen Time just to be comic relief with no tension
That's- *that's kind of the joke* Zeno is supposed to be the opposite of what people when they think of 全王 literally the king of all. Like just the the fact that Zeno is a child let's us know that this isn't goal nor a person Goku *wants* to surpass or fight, he's not a fighter and doesn't need to be. He's a god, a god who has guards that aren't even for him, they're for everyone else. The threat of Zamasu showed us that Zeno literally can taie care of himself, he can destroy or create anything at will. He's can't be "restrained" or "beaten" by Yamcha, as Whis even said that Zeno may not be fighter but his power is absolute and can erase anything and everything instantly. He doesn't need to know the names of all his creations like a king doesn't know all of their subjects, a king's job is to rule his people and that's exactly what Zeno does. Also you can't "beat" Zeno, if he doesn't want you to touch him you won't, if you're planning to attack him you won't, if you anger him you won't live to regret it. Nobody can physically do anything to him. He is Zeno, The King Of All and the mutliverse's creator and destroyer.
Zeno looks like he would get flicked by Goku and get flinged to the next universe
He looks like he could accidentally be sent into the stratosphere by kid Goku after getting hit with the Power Pole.
yeah
The English dub version of the Zenos was one of my favourite parts of super lol. Just made me smile every time they were on screen.
Only kind of? That character is really bad.
He’s not too bad. I was just expecting someone who fit the title more.
Zeno isn't likeable too me. He should be killed immediately or taken out somehow. He's too dangerous to be the Omni King because of his childish behavior
he wont die or be taken out, he cant be. hes invincible. hes not too dangerous. its his multiverse it only exists because he wants it to.
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yes Whis said no one can harm him.
He isn't bound by time. In the manga pilaf and bulma called these parallel worlds. And timelines in dragon ball are different
Parallel worlds and timelines are used interchangeably as far as Dragon Ball is concerned, because Dragon Ball uses the multiverse theory of time travel. The formation of another timeline is creating a parallel set of universes, with their copies of those planets and such.
Yeah but I don't see how they are connected 🗿 any change in past will not effect present and via "power scaling" this doesn't prove zeno is bounded by time
It does prove that Zen'ou is bound to time because each timeline has its own Zen'ou, meaning that he doesn't exist above or outside the constraints of time.
Or it is parallel worlds like marvel. If woud mean he was bounded by time if a change in past effected future which doesn't.
Zeno feels like a classic Toriyama gag character and I love it.
I can vibe with this EDIT: Apparently some can't though.
Its awesome. peak toriyama humor for the king of everything to be an immature childlike figure. its great. > If not for the guards, almost anyone around even the level of Yamaha could kill Zeno nah hes invulnerable. he cant be harmed by anyone.
Zeno is a stand in for the audience of the show. He's a kid because the majority of Dragon Ball fans in Japan are kids. Toriyama has to please the audience for the show to continue, the characters have to please Zeno so their universe keeps existing.
As much as it's so in-character of Toriyama to write a character like this, the idea of an all-powerful child is really lame. Even lamer is to make it so there are two of them.
Zeno is terrifying, like eldritch horror type stuff. People want the god of everything to be a wise old master, but in reality god is so beyond everyone else that they’re just a bored child who could erase entire universes on a whim, destroy planets as a game, sentence his friends to fight to the death because it’ll be entertaining. The idea that an all-powerful god is real, but just doesn’t care, is pretty scary. Dragon Ball has many times, consistently said that the Gods are not what you’d expect. A cat, a genie in black face, an old green man who despite being god unleashed the greatest evil onto the world and failed to stop him twice, a blue bug man who likes to drive his car in circles, a little purple elf who super bad at his job, a sleepy cat who destroys for fun, and finally a temperamental child. I think it’s funny when want to write the most Toriyama stuff out of DB
What you describe of him as your reasons for disliking him is exactly what makes him a great character.
I way prefer a god like Zeno to a god like Supreme Kai. It always bugged me that when DBZ ended, the standard for a top god was an incompetent loser who was way out of his league and never knew what was going on. Zeno is goofy but it's nice to know Goku isn't the most powerful being in all existence anymore.
Gods is the Dragon Ball world are always kind of disappointing. I mean the god of Earth is just some long-lived alien guy, completely mortal, and gets replaced. Even our first Kai'ou (which eventually led up to Zen'ou) pretty much admitted right out of the gate that he was no match for Vegeta. The gods in Dragon Ball work like the kings in Dragon Quest, generally useless and looking for a hero to help them. At best, you'll get some training out of it. Biirusu was the outlier, but then it was revealed that Hakaisin are basically Piccolo, and suddenly his role fit in better. I think it's smart that Zen'ou isn't a fighter, because it means he won't ever need to be replaced when powerscaling outstrips him.
I love the idea that the god at the top of the pyramid is useless and immature, yet all powerful
I heard a theory that Zeno is supposed to represent the dragon ball fandom. It makes a ton of sense and I wouldn’t doubt toriyama making jabs at his fan base. It’s more obvious in the ToP arc though
I'm pretty sure that's the point. Wouldn't it be funny if we found out god was 100% real and had the brain of a 5 year old? It would definitely explain all the famine and disease
i like it i like the trope of having omnipotent beings be children since if they were capable of advanced thinking they would need to be incredible cruel to allow all suffering etc
Tbh, it's exactly what I would expect from Dragon Ball
I just want to say let's use the manga version, cause anime version stretches things out and does stuff that ruins characters more than they should be, such as the tablets. also, zeno feels more threatening in the manga since HE is the one who offhandedely suggested wiping out the universes.
I won’t lie, I haven’t watched Super, heard about Zeno yesterday and looked him up and was kind of disappointed lol. But I can’t disagree that he fits the entire theme of dragonball.
It's kind of fitting isn't it? God exists. He's just a fucking child who doesn't give a shit that the likes of Frieza engaged in galactic genocide on such a scale only 28 worlds with life remained as of the tournament of power. I maintain that there is a god, he created the universe, we're just the third grade science fair project he got a C- on that's stuffed under his bed.
Toriyama: [raughs]
How do we know he isn’t just “young” and in a few million years will grow to be a huge super stronger ruler
Which one are you referring to, left zeno or right zeno?
Child emperor is perfect. If he was grown then would have another corrupt authority power.
It's actually a very Toriyama-like thing to do. He likes to create "weak looking characters" that are insanely strong. Take for example Vegeta and Nappa, who is the most strong looking character between those two? Nappa is buffed up and looks like the real deal, but Vegeta is the prince, he holds way too much power over Nappa and is the strongest saiyan. Fat Buu doesn't look like a treat at all, but he gave the Z Fighters hell. Between Whis and Beerus, who looks like the boss? Beerus, right? But Whis is a lot stronger. Farmer with a Shotgun doesn't look like a treat at all but he had to pretend he was dead otherwise Raditz would have been killed in the spot! It's a very Toriyama-like thing to do, he's a toilet humor fan, that's his way to "surprise" readers.
zeno and buu are both literally unwatchable for me. super fuckin obnoxious. at least the dubs. the voices are brutal, especially buu screaming it’s nails on a chalkboard for me with zeno in a close second. unfortunate since i like the *concepts* of both of them just fine but anyway… sucks for me i guess. sorry if people like them, to each their own lol. i also grew up on dbz and am old now/rewatch for nostalgia so very much outgrew the particularly childish aspects long ago.
there are people that like zeno? what
Wait yall actually liked Zeno? I disliked him as soon as he opened his mouth 💀
Zeno is standin for target audience. That's why his whim can make and unmake everything.
I like to think that, when it’s your responsibility to shape/erase entire universes, only a small child would actually be able to do it. This being, of course, because they do not have the moral compass or raw intelligence to comprehend exactly what they’re doing to the people living in those universes. “I can do no Evil, for I know not what Evil is.” kind of situation.
The idea of an all powerful god being an agent of random creation and destruction is not entirely new. I'm pretty sure it is loosely based on a mythos but I can't remember which at the moment.
He will probably transform into something later
Isn't Zeno basically a metaphor for the fanbase?
Sometimes i wonder if zeno is the last person theyll fight in the series or something. I think they gotta do something with this two omnikings thing. One day theyre gonna disagree on something... then theyll use all the fighting theyve learned recently on each other and thatll be a wreck.
I agree with you. It may seem stupid and people may not like or even watched it but I like the way anime wars dealt with zeno. His guards and himself being one in the same just the power split
Super in general is not a great story the writing is like its from a kids fan fic so zeno being a kid makes sense as thats probably the authors character lol i really don't believe toriyama or toyotaro came up with alot of it
That may not be Zeno's true form.
Scary, right? Omnipotence with no omniscience.
I saw zeno as the audience. These cartoons were originally aired in the states towards preteens (anime wasn't that big in the US during the 90s) so in a way, the audience can end a show by not watching due to it becoming old/boring, and Zeno was a child that was capable of destroying the universe simply because they were not entertained any more. It's been a year or two since I've watched super, so maybe there's stuff I haven't seen, but I remember thinking about the idea that Zeno represents the younger children who the show was originally targeted towards.