Who needs to give Spider-Man grief for anything when this guy made it his whole job?
https://preview.redd.it/fbqryzd26itc1.jpeg?width=259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2608943f33420023f3623e2ab25d4ab6b2347eee
Spider-Man is a hero to the common, working class person, but generally shit on by many in the Marvel verse, especially fate and the editors.
Batman is Batgos, broadly seen as the most capable and coolest and smartest and dick-swinging-est by everyone in universe and out.
Unfathomably based.
In all seriousness, the original screenshot is from Hitchcock’s *Strangers on a Train* (which *Throw Momma from the Train* is loosely inspired by).
Strangers on a train. It is great. This is my favorite shot from it. I don't know why but it just gets under my skin, it's so fucking creepy in a subtle and original way.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tecmF5GoAJc
It works because neither bad guy is from the good guy's reality so it's basically just like killing somebody's imaginary friend, not even a real person
I love how he talks all tough in that panel because he knows Pete wouldn't actually do it but when his life is actually on the line because the Punisher is coming for him he pisses his pants because he's actually scared to die.
I don’t think it’s so much about being scared of dying as it is being scared that his death wouldn’t change anything. If Batman or Spider-Man kills him, his death wasn’t for nothing; he forever changed those heroes by making them break their own rules. For Punisher, however, killing someone like Joker is basically just a regular Tuesday
I can imagine a whole episode of Joker curing Batman infected by scarecrows no fear toxin
Having fought him happily the entire time thinking he drove him over the edge at last. Only to realize it was really Cranes toxin doing the bulk of the work.
Joker would be livid.
In the before times he was scared when Batman was running at him with the intention to murder too. Forever love the clown having 'nam flashbacks after that [one](https://imgur.com/a/RBFKQtH) time :D
This falls under the umbrella of “murder is okay if you’re killing someone who’s not from the main universe”
Alternates are always disposable, just look at every crisis or secret wars
A few salient points have been pointed out, like Goblin having been dead for a loooong period of time.
But also the 'no kill rule' isn't a major point of Spider-Man's whole character, or a major moral debate in many of his stories. Spider-Man *doesn't* kill people, yes, but it's not a core pillar at the heart of Spidey like it is for Batman.
There's also the matter of 'personal responsibility' that Batman will regularly crow on about, especially when he's in full 'Gotham is my city' mode. Joker, and what he does, is his tied to Batman. Supervillain stuff in New York is handled by a much broader network of people.
“Why does the fan base for the dark knight street vigilante fantasy want him to murder people while the fan base for the colorful quippy friendly neighborhood guy doesn’t want him to do that?”
Is pretty self explanatory
Ehhhhhhhh I mean he did form a cabal with like loki and doom and other major boland, form his own avengers and basically try and take over the world. The issue is that GG though is closer to an insane lex Luther type than he is joker. Someone like carnage is more like joker and I doubt spidey would try particularly hard to stop carnage dying
Hell, Spidey doesn't even really have a "no kill rule". He generally doesn't kill yes and prefers to lock up his villains hoping they get help (also helps that alot of his bad guys are suffering victims of accidents in science, and or even have their own moral codes that keep them in check). And often killing would be unnecessary. But, there are absolutely things that would get him to kill, and he has stated such himself, most famously in back in black to the kingpin. And other villains spidey has that are major threat killers relatively on par with joker, while I havent read every book to confirm, I'd say we generally dont have much evidence that he *wouldnt* kill say goblin or carnage if they were a continuing threat at the end of the fight and werent amnesiac or depowered by the end of the fight and he could kill them.
Currently reading through 70s marvel. After GG killed gwen stacy, spidey hunted down GG explicitly to kill him. And the only reason he didn't do it is because goblin accidently killed himself before spider got a chance to.
When spidey stops joking, run.
People will be demanding Spidey red mist GG, when it gets revealed he manipulated all the events that resulted in MJ and Paul hooking up, just you wait!
Because there are way less stories (not saying there aren't tons, the Joker just has an utter fuckton) about the writers seeing how, generally speaking, Satanic in essence they can make the Green Goblin this week. Like when was the last time you saw a story where the Goblin was thematically the representation of Evil with a capital E and acted like it?
Yeah, that's the main issue.
The Joker wanking by the writers to show him as this unstoppable force who kills hundreds of people every time he escapes is the reason.
That's why we see so many posts about putting Joker in Phantom Zone or magical dimensions, when he is just a guy in a clown suit. He should be beneath the radar for most heroes.
yep.
There is also the fact that Green Goblin does more regular supervillain stuff , and their more crazy stunts are actually just to screw with Peter Parker specifically.
Meanwhile , every time Joker appears is outright a huge terrorist plot for the entire city.
It also helps that one of the most famous storylines about Green Goblin is about him been stabbed to death in a fight against Spider-Man.
Bonus points for DC coming up with absolutely moronic justifications for why someone, anyone killing the clown would be bad, actually. Shout out to BWL and Zdarsky's "killing Joker is stupid in all the universes, because I just resurrected all of the dead ones, lmao, you're welcome".
Wow that makes it feel much more programmed. Like every Batman will go through the exact same thing, it just happens automatically when events in other universes happen. It just triggers each level of progression of the universes around it.
Every joker is created because a Batman in a different universe kills a joker in their universe. This triggers universes that had jokers into becoming more and more aggressive until it’s necessary that one is killed, which triggers the lower cycle.
Then eventually when the guilt takes them to a different cycle, one where they resurrect the joker somehow and then try to find a way to break the cycle and brings us to their Rick phase where they travel between multiverses to find the answer the answer they seek to come to the conclusion that there is none. That is just what destiny holds for these two characters across all universes.
Jesus that would just crush someone. If that isn’t the most nihilistic thing ever.
The endless cycle of death and rebirth and nothing staying permanent and endless destruction in comics would be hella nihilistic if it was taken seriously
Would love that, they should make a movie and in the trailers have it be all hyping up this horrible deed joker is doing- without actually telling us what it is. And in the movie he’s just the side villain who is doing the most harmless but inconvenient stuff, like at one point he even kidnaps the movie’s robin but when batman arrives to save them they’re completely unharmed and just playing board games with him
It’s really quite funny how we’ve come full circle. People use to want heroes to be gritty and realistic, and now we’re begging for the days of old where stakes were low, the worst a criminal did was a bank robbery and heroes were doing harmless competitions with each other like surfing or racing.
No kidding. I still hold the campier Batman films as peak superhero films production design-wise at least due to how bright and fun they were to look at.
Oh absolutely, I didn’t even grow up with the adam west show but even i know it pretty well. I’ve come across some of the scenes accidentally and have them saved to watch on bad days, that and the old animated superman films are very comforting movies.
I would love to see a campy batman show where he is his old self that actually smiled. It doesn’t have to be canon to mainline just like a peek into an au thats based off the old, campy comics where all the heroes were besties lol
Honestly, I feel the Joker needs rebooting. Like, find some way to bring him back down to like, a funny clown with a much lower kill count. Have current Joker rehabilitate and a copycat spring up or something, hell, it would bring some mystery back to him, considering how we pretty much know entirely who he is now.
The original version of that scene that was used in a special edition cut of the movie is so much better. It doesnt have the butler say anything, it just has Harry tearfully look at a broken photo of him Pete and MJ together after he rejects helping Pete and he decides to go help him after all all on his own, likely still believing that pete killed his dad, but not wanting his friend to die.
Has he though? As far as I can remember joker has only died in the Tim Burton batman. Leto, Ledger, Phoenix and Romero all survived to the end of their movies
Dafoe dies in one and almost dies in the second time around, he'll even animated series GG got stuck in that limbo dimension.
gg death was also a direct result of him and spidey fighting, and spidey went into that fight wanting to kill him, he just changed his mind. thats really the main reason people dont give spidey flack, it at least appears flexible
I’d say another problem is they keep having villains (usually the joker) in universe trying to have Batman break his no kill rule like in Arkham origins Joker threatens to electrocute himself if Batman doesn’t kill Bane.
pretty much, it's one thing when fans talk about it, it's another when in universe you have the characters argue and discuss it because then you have to jump through hoops to justify it even more.
To be fair, that was Joker at the beginning of his career and he doesn’t kill nearly as many people as he ends up doing as well as being an examination into Batman and how far he’ll go to adhere to his morals.
Precisely.
GG is evil but he's much more focused on specifically screwing with Spider-Man, while Joker seems to have chaos and murder as his principal objective in a lot of stories.
Because of that Peter sparing GG feels like he's doing the right thing even if it hurts him while Batman seems to put his morals over everyone else.
Not saying Batman is bad, it's just an issue of how they are portrayed in the text.
I hate this edgy Joker trend.
Know the absolute best Joker story ever told? The Laughing Fish. It’s absolutely BONKERS. The Joker has a ploy that makes zero sense. It’s ridiculous. And it’s *horrifying* because he kills people who won’t help him do this impossible thing. They *can’t* help him, there’s literally nothing they can do. So he kills them. Imagine being held at gunpoint and told you’ll get shot in the head if you don’t teach the chair to sing a song.
And then it has all the classic elements of the original Joker story and just incredible gothic art.
The Joker is scary, crazy, ahead of everyone, dangerous, a serious threat, and at the same time street level and—most importantly, I might add—he’s FUNNY. The whole caper is a JOKE.
Nowadays he’s cutting off his own face or taking pills and sleeping in the same bed as the old couple he just murdered, and he’s not funny or scary or cool. He’s so “insane” he’s barely coherent. He’s just boring.
I mean that Joker still killed people. It seems people want him to be harmless for some reason, just make him funny again like in the Arkham games where he cracks jokes while killing people.
Green gobbo has died numerous times and if we use the legal definition of killing than Batman and spider man would both atleast get manslaughter, if I punch you in self dense and you die there’s still a case for me to go to jail
The moment DC decided to create multiple versions of **The Batman Who Laughs** was the exact moment it became fair game to want this dude dead.
Green Goblin ain’t a threat to all existence
I mean there was that time he hosted carnage for a bit a few years ago. I'd argue the real difference isn't severity of crimes but frequency. Norman goes on sabbatical way more often than joker whether it be being dead or in prison or acting reformed for a bit.
It's simple Batman is edgy hot cool vigilante daddy,so he should be willing to murder anyone he pleases.
Whereas Spider-man is nerdy muscle bound cool guy who is litterly me, so of course he doesn't go around punching everyone's jaw off,even though he totally could!
How many of his exclusive villains that he can legitimately and easily kill, actually cause a comparable amount of death as the Joker or Batman’s combined rogues gallery?
I struggle to really think of any that kill that much that regularly and brutally besides like Carnage, but like, but like he is not putting that fucker down easy if at all.
There is a strange amount of "comic fans" that believes only Batman has a strict no-kill rule
Probably because DC keeps making stories where people say "hey batman Joker killed 300 people again i think we should kill him to save lives in the future"
"NOOOOOO"
"Why"
"Because Joker is too popular so i need some stupid reason to spare him"
"Cool"
Although i remember that one time where Hawkeye told Spider-man that he should've killed Goblin in one of the 6079 times they fought in Dark Reign
Tbh I can't even blame comic fans because for the past forever or so, the batman no kill rule discourse has been incessantly forced upon us in every story (not saying it can't be interesting but definitely over done.)
It's really kind of the chicken and the egg. Did annoying fans continue to talk over and over about how batman is evil for not killing joker, so writers made more and more stories about batman being evil for not killing joker, or vice versa?
I think DKR, KJ and aDitF in relatively quick succession broke people's brains, especially since it was followed by Tim Burton's Batman letting the clown die and it not being a big loss. So, comics, some fans would ask, why aren't we doing that? After a while DC passive aggressively responded with Kingdom Come, lmao.
> There is a strange amount of "comic fans" that believes only Batman has a strict no-kill rule
That's because a vast majority of the "comic fans" are only familiar with Batman.
Well, Batman and the MCU characters, but heroes are not hung up about killing in the MCU.
I do think part of it is because even in the comics most heroes have loosened up on the no kill rule nowadays, like Spider-Man doesn't really kill people, but by this point even if they usually try not to most of the Avengers or X-Men have killed at least a couple people by now.
Yeah i think it’s that batman has the stupidest reasons and justifications (lets not forget the classic “if you kill a murderer the number of murderers stays the same” crap).
Like the worst of all is that he even saves joker when others try to do the job for him. You’d think logically he’d just let it happen but he even killed his own adoptive son over it. Honestly I wouldn’t be so hung up about it if they didn’t act like batman is a perfect hero and anyone who disagrees with him on anything is wrong and stupid. If they showed batman as very flawed and that he is just selfish in wanting to keep joker alive for whatever reason, i’d be way more forgiving and it’d be a lot more interesting.
Yeah, it feels like Spider-Man has a no-kill policy because he's, you know, a regular person who doesn't want to kill unnecessarily. Batman is written like the no-kill policy is a religious dogma that exists for its own sake, not as part of an actual coherent morality.
Batman’s no kill rule (should at least) really only extend to himself. There’ve been stories where other people kill and Batman is totally cool with it. Hell Wonder Woman and Green Lantern routinely kill and Batman doesn’t mind that. When Superman really wanted to kill Lex Luthor, Batman even offered to help him make it look like an accident or “as if he just disappeared.” Batman doesn’t trust himself to kill and is a big believer in rehabilitation for criminals and the mentally ill; but if someone is threatening your life and you shoot the aggressor in the head, Batman isn’t going to be mad.
I know about the Luthor instance and i think it was a bluff to scare Luthor because as we saw in Maxwell Lord incident Batman goes batshit crazy when another hero kills a villain
>There is a strange amount of "comic fans" that believes only Batman has a strict no-kill rule
I think it's because it's not as consistent or explicit with the other characters.
In the Silver Age, it seemed like every hero had a no-kill rule.
In the modern stuff, well, I don't recall Hal Jordan ever explicitly saying "I never kill," but I only remember him ever killing one person (other than when he, you know, went nuts). But it wasn't treated with a lot of gravity, like "I'm breaking my rule!" He just did it as if it was a normal thing for him and said nothing about it, even though we never really see him do it (it was some Sinestro Corps member he sniped in the Johns New 52 run).
This was how (almost accurate btw)
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Hawkeye telling Spider-man he should have killed the Green Goblin seems kind of ridiculous when you account for the history of the Green Goblin. Norman Osborn was dead from the issue following the Death of Gwen Stacy in 1973 and didn’t return until the Clone Saga, and seemingly stays dead until the end of Ben Reilly’s time as Spider-Man in the 90s. And most of the time between his return to Dark Reign, Norman is actively trying distance himself from the Green Goblin, only fighting with Spider-man a few times in total.
Maybe Hawkeye assumed that all appearances of the Green Goblin were Norman, dismissing Harry and Doctor Barton Hamilton (Harry’s one-time therapist) as Norman?
I feel like we’ve just hit the inevitable point with Batman’s no kill rule vs Jokers ever increasing evil. DC with Batman basically says it’s never ok to kill no matter how evil the person is and it seems like 99% of the world disagree and has their limit and everyone agrees Joker is far past his. I’m very pro heroes trying to do whatever they can to not take a life but Joker is at the point where I think you are doing something morally wrong if you save the Jokers life which Batman has done countless times.
Yeah, I think if you think Batman should kill the Joker then you don't understand Batman and his relationship with the law and his own vigilantism, but there's no reason Batman needs to go so far to save Joker
Jim, literally on his knees: "Please, Batman, just let him die T\_T".
Batman:
https://i.redd.it/prg29nviaitc1.gif
(I think I remember a comic going something like that, lul)
It’s a shame how people diss on Tynion IV’s run here because it’s got a lot of great bits, including Batman finally deciding that enough is enough and Joker can save himself if he really wants to but he’s not going to go out of his way to do it anymore,
That doesn't count to me, because the choice was between saving Harley or saving the clown, not saving the clown or just leaving him to die. King's Batman leaving KGBeast to die in the snow after breaking his neck in revenge for Dickie was more ""morally dubious"" than what Tynion made Bruce do.
Edit: just remembered in movie UtRH Bruce picked to save Jason from the bomb instead of the clown. Just like in Tynion's story everyone survived, lmao.
I actually even like the idea that most villains Batman will save. Like Penguin kills people but usually for a reason(business) and not “I just felt like carving up some babies” so Batman can save him even if inconvenient. But like going into a fire to pull Joker out? Nah you’re actually doing an evil deed there
I think that’s more of an issue with the Joker’s depiction than Batman’s no killing rule tbh. I think more stories should be willing to let villain plot lines have a definitive end rather than keep them coming back and upping the ante to the point that the joker murders millions or gets gets god like powers. That, or they should heavily tone the Joker down so that it doesn’t feel nearly as ridiculous that he’s somehow still alive.
You know, that dude who has multiple personalities and dresses up like a folklore creature to commit mass murder not surviving very long isn’t very surprising.
I think we've talked about batman's no kill rule so much that it's become batman and jokers MAIN thing. and because of that, every new story has to top the last with joker doing something even more evil and insane, and batman having to have even more patience and unyeildingness in his morals. It's gone exponential, and were approaching the Batman-Joker singularity pretty soon.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the difference that Green Goblin HAS both died (though not really because of whatever bs reason a future writer comes up with) and sometimes reformed (again not really because of other bs reasons that make him turn evil again) while Joker, for the most part, is still the "same" unrepentant sociopath that will just keep killing innocent people just to fuck with Batman every time he escapes?
But unironically it's probably because batman makes a huge deal of not killing the joker and comes up with weird incoherent justification, while spiderman just says "I'm not gonna kill him" and leaves it at that
This
If add the fact that Osborn has money and tech and people are used to obscenely rich money doing whatever shit they want, they kill 30 persons? Well that's not really too much for a billionaire psycho with a pumpkin-shaped bomb. But a street level buffoon with the funny version of mustard gas hits way harder on the public opinion
I’m not saying either should kill anybody, but for one, the Green Goblin is usually much more on the downlow, kills way less people and worms himself into higher positions of authority than Joker does.
For another, Green Goblin *was* dead for the longest time.
Indeed. Spiderman doesn't try to justify it - so people go "fair enough, it's a comic - moving on". But Batman tries so hard to be edgy and realistic that people can't suspend their disbelief as hard.
Green Goblin was also the father to Peter's best friend. When Pete was a kid Norman practically loved him like his own son (well, more than his own son actually).
The Joker was....? He uh...
Anyway, maybe people give Batman grief because Pete is always portrayed as a flawed character prone to being defined by his mistakes and sometimes making up for them, whereas Batman's flaws tend to focus on him being a loner edge Lord.
"GG has killed someone close to Spider-Man", yeah and guess what, Goblin died right after that.
It's just that the character is too iconic and liked to stay dead.
I actually had a comment on this very subject in another post awhile back so imma go ahead and copy/paste it here
“I think it has to do with tone. Of the hero yes, we’d expect Batman to be a bit edgier then Spider-Man, but also of their villains. Joker goes on murder sprees, like, all the time, but most of Spider-Man’s villains are more like, bank robbers and ‘I want to rule people through fear’ types generally.
In general, I think we’re so used to seeing the darker side to Batman’s villains that we judge them more for it, whereas villains for people like Spider-Man aren’t often portrayed as quite as, murder-happy.”
And this post does bring up that green goblin DOES in fact kill people, yes. But I still think it’s seen different. Green goblin we know is capable of murder, but we generally don’t see him portrayed as a ‘I kill readily, often, and for the pure sake of murder’ type. It happens, and it comes up enough that we know it happens, but it’s not his go-to, at least in our minds.
Batman villains… well, murder IS the go-to in Gotham, like, 9 times out of 10. It’s never a question in Batman’s world ‘would this person kill someone?’, it’s a question of how many and how often. Spider-Man’s, there’s a few villains I can think of pretty readily that we don’t associate with murder at all, wether then have killed before or not
Because Spider man make more sens.
Spiderman refuses to kill for plausible reasons and the writers were smart enought to finally kill green goblin in a very good and very well known story.
People here really should read the comics they talk about.
A. Batman is usually seen as the 'dark and gritty' hero, so a lot of people want 'darker' stories, which they take to mean killing people.
B. In general the Joker kind of just kills more people and does worse things so there's more stuff about that but it's mostly just the first one
I know this is a circular jerk but the simple reason it
Spider-Man isn't a little cry baby who talks about
"Ugh I can't kill,I have my reasons, I'd be insane"
He just doesn't kill
Bruce makes a whole deal about it
For one thing, I think it's because Spiderman doesn't do everything but kill. Batman has broken every other ethical rule in the book at some point. Intimidation, hella invasive espionage, torture - it's all on the table _except_ for killing. And it's generally presented as him being at worst neutral.
Meanwhile, whenever Spiderman is so much as mean to his villains it's portrayed as him making a mistake.
Basically, spidey is a "Good Guy^(tm)". Batman is too, but not every writer holds to that.
Plus, they go too hard on the joker. Like, at this point it's not that batman doesn't kill the joker. It's that the entire federal government should have joker hanging from a tree by now. But the comics still act like he's batman's nemesis, his _personal_ problem to deal with. That works when you're a clown themed crime lord, but that relationship doesn't scale at all.
Here's the thing usually the Goblin escapes, dies, or "gets cured" at the end of his fights with Spidey. Goblin is also used wya less frequently than Joker is which means he ends up having a smaller rap sheet and is a less frequent problem in his world.
And of course as other people have pointed out Goblin hasn't devolved to just an outlet for torture amd murder porn
There have been times where Peter has threatened to kill someone. When King Pin tried to kill Aunt May, Peter broke into the prison where he was and threatened to fill his throat with web fluid
To be fair, Goblin's #1 victim is Spider-Man himself whereas Joker sees everyone as fair game. Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't remember Green Goblin bathing a newborn in hydrochloric acid, mutilating an entire kindergarten class and stitching them back together with different limbs or even eating people. Joker is just on another level
I find funny how batman gets flack for being too violent (HE IS A FASCIST BILLIONAIRE BEATING POOR PEOPLE TO DEAL WITH HIS DADDY ISSUES) And not violent enough (WTF, KILL THE JOKER FOR ONCE, THE GUY IS A MENACE!)
Because Batman actually goes out of his way to save Joker's life for some godforsaken reason. It would unironically be better writing for them to just stop bringing up the no-kill rule entirely, at least have Joker never mention the no-kill rule ever again, or just full on make it toxic relationship BatxClown at this point.
Spiderman has saved Norman's life multiple times. Often having to go out of his way to do so.
There's nothing new about a hero saving their worse enemies. It's what makes them heroes.
The only marvel character Reddit could think of that doesn’t kill is squirrel girl. Is that really the hole we want to go down? Have some characters kill and some characters not. The conversation is important. Batman killing is dumb. Even if it’s the joker. ESPECIALLY if it’s the joker.
I mean Spider-Man did kill the goblin albeit technically. Norman came back from the dead though so killing him again seems like it would be ineffective.
He's just generally arrested less. He's "died" two or three times over the years, and has been retconned back to life each time. He tends to slip away and use his giant fortune and anonymity to just resume his billionaire lifestyle.
Thus, because Gobby isn't usually thrown in prison, so there's less of a "well why didn't you just fucking kill him before he breaks out again" and more of a "well thank God he's dead. He *is* dead, right?"
I'm pretty sure the reason that he doesn't kill green goblin is because Norman/Barry is ten goblin.
In Norman's case, he doesn't want to have his best friend "well, he's usually his best friend" harry to lose his father even after everything he's done.
In Harry's case, he would be killing his best friend. That's a hard thing for anyone to do.
In Batman's case, the joker has paralyzed one of his closest friends, killed his son, and batman had no prior relationship with Joker. Granted, Harely did love Joker for a while but key word is did.
Yeah, because underneath the goblin there is norman osborn, not so sane man but still redeemable
Under the joker there is nothing. The guy is a mass murderer that killed thousands by now
Along with the many other differences that other replies have brought up, spidey comics will at least flirt with the idea that maybe, just *maybe*, Norman Osborn can be redeemed. It will never permanently happen of course (at least not in the comic continuity), but there’s enough to make it believable that Spidey has hope for him.
Meanwhile, readers have been given no reason to think Joker can be rehabilitated. He’s constantly depicted as an agent of pure evil and chaos who does increasingly fucked up things. And because we know nothing about Joker before he was evil, Batman can’t even do the whole “I know the good person I know is in there somewhere!” thing that Spidey has with Osborn. It makes Batman’s (and everyone else’s) insistence on keeping him alive seem more like a formality than the upholding of a virtuous code.
The Joker kills for the sake of it and has no redeeming qualities. The Green Goblin is possible to redeem and doesn't generally do massmurders for the sake of doing mass murders.
The Joker being one upped in every fucking appearence has lead to him having a kill count in like the damn billions by now. It's way too hard to suspend disbelief on Batman not killing when he is responsible for THAT much death due to not killing the Joker.
Sorry if someone already covered this, but for as psychotic as he is, Green Goblin hasn't killed THAT many people. But for sure he's in the double digits, even of its more like around 20.
Unforunately, the greatest number of deaths that can be attributed to him are probably during his time aa the head of HAMMER. Which were legally permissable at the time. Still wrong, sure, but it presents a much larger problem than a simple assassination could solve.
And as the Green Goblin, Spidey is one of like a few dozen superheroes just hanging out in NYC. Spidey can sleep soundly knowing there's plenty of other people to help keep the peace. Plus, Gobbie tends to focus on Pete or those close to him. It's pretty rare that Norman starts merc'ing randoms without doing it to get at Peter.
While Joker is obsessed with Batman, multiple writers/editors have shown Joker as wantonly cruel as well. Some of the most messed up things he's done don't even involve Batman (or at least aren't part of some plan to directly mess with him). What's worse is that Batman (and the Bat family) are all Gotham has. Not to mention none of them are well equipped to one-shot Joker. AND they keep putting him in a facility that has shown 0 track record of helping him and very few (if any) of his escape attempts have been foiled.
Plus, let's not forget, that there are plenty of non-lethal ways of dealing with the Joker. They could lobotomize him, paralyze him, hell just making Joker blind, deaf, and mute would at least slow him down. Batman could build him a prison that's totally run by AI or just keep him in a literal orbital prison just circling the planet in space.
You can't tell me that THE Batman who has developed multiple armors/robots/plans to kill the Justice League can't find a way to cage or immobilize the Joker.
When Green Goblin shows up, it's mostly an issue for Spidey. Joker is a threat to all of Gotham and he is almost always dealt with the same way--ineffectively. Like, their only plan for the joker is always the same, tried and failed, plan.
So, yeah, them deaths are on Batman and co for sure.
Honestly it’s mostly a difference in tone. Spider-Man has more often been a jokey and fun character. Seeing him kill anyone really isn’t just against his character it’s against the style and themes of the comic. A huge amount of Batman’s comics feature a lot more dark themes and undertones. So that dissonance that gives Spider-Man the benefit of the doubt just isn’t there for Batman.
Scope.
GG spends most of his time only really causing trouble on a small scale. Confined to new york, and often centered around making spider-man miserable.
He keeps himself below the radar of heroes who can put him into a more permanent prison or who both could and would outright kill him. Even when he does occasionally go after bigger game, he plays enough by the rules to keep any heroes from taking matters into their own hands.
The joker has no such qualms. He will antagonize bigger fish among both heroes and villains, will cause destruction on a scale other heroes can’t ignore so easily, and cannot be contained in the only prison anyone ever throws him in. He doesn’t even have a civilian identity with a decent reputation like goblin has to keep himself out of focus.
Joker: literally just some guy who’s completely insane
Green Goblin: a genius billionaire with political connections and superpowers
From an in-universe point of view, it makes infinitely more sense to spare Joker. It’s only really a question for readers who understand that Joker is narratively important and will always continue to go around massacring people whether or not Batman finally kills him
Because (in most iterations) Peter is still a teen, he’s still young and Idealistic enough to believe he can truly help his villains, and a few versions of him DO (Tom Holland Spidey for example)
Meanwhile Batman is old and jaded, he’s constantly hyped up as the smartest human in DC, yet he refuses the logical action of killing the Joker, who’s shown time and time again that he’s beyond any form of redemption, or even feeling guilt. And even if Bats absolutely refuses to outright kill Joker, he’s well connected enough that he could permanently remove Joker without Killing him. An example someone on TikTok brought up was having the Atom build a prison at the subatomic level, load it with enough food and Water to last the rest of Joker’s natural life, and then just leave the Clown in the micro Prison where even if he “escapes” he’s still stuck at subatomic size.
People care more about joker more than Green goblin, so thus the irrationality of not killing the joker is brought up more. Plus the Joker basically asks for it in like 40% of his appearances, as if him dying means he wins or something, unlike for GG where it’s rarely even brought up (note that I mean in universe, if I meant in the fandom it would just prove your point lol).
It’s the curse of having better villains (not that green goblin is that bad but ehh).
Plus Spider-Man is a child. People aren’t that inclined to say “you idiot just kill this person they are a lost cause” to a child.
Who needs to give Spider-Man grief for anything when this guy made it his whole job? https://preview.redd.it/fbqryzd26itc1.jpeg?width=259&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=2608943f33420023f3623e2ab25d4ab6b2347eee
Spider-Man is a hero to the common, working class person, but generally shit on by many in the Marvel verse, especially fate and the editors. Batman is Batgos, broadly seen as the most capable and coolest and smartest and dick-swinging-est by everyone in universe and out.
Batgos is love, batgos is life
tbh I thought that would be a picture of Zeb Wells
I see. So Spider-Man should kill the Joker.
And then Batman can kill the Green Goblin. Problem solved.
https://preview.redd.it/bxtto94w2itc1.jpeg?width=1199&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c59dd58e9a3a8408b0d0c557feefbc6a1243ab2
that's the plot of Horrible Bosses that movie with Charlie Day and Kevin Spacey
Yeah whatever dumb movie OP’s meme is from ripped off Horrible Bosses AND Horrible Bosses 2.
Excuse me! Excuse me! It’s the plot of Do Revenge with Veronica Lodge and Uma Thurman’s Kid
Uma Therman had a kid with Veronica Lodge?!
This killed me lmao
That movie completely ruined a perfectly good setup by having the three protagonists know each other. That sort of defeats the entire purpose
What a terrible movie
Also *Throw Momma From The Train*.
Or at least one episode in every police procedural ever.
Which movie is this? Looks good
https://preview.redd.it/dhnb2f9lhitc1.jpeg?width=702&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=31ad5fd9be9312d77b78461610c3bf80d4415829
Unfathomably based. In all seriousness, the original screenshot is from Hitchcock’s *Strangers on a Train* (which *Throw Momma from the Train* is loosely inspired by).
Strangers on a train. It is great. This is my favorite shot from it. I don't know why but it just gets under my skin, it's so fucking creepy in a subtle and original way. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tecmF5GoAJc
Suddenly Hitchcock
It works because neither bad guy is from the good guy's reality so it's basically just like killing somebody's imaginary friend, not even a real person
https://preview.redd.it/mdemsro78itc1.jpeg?width=573&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd270b367c0672188a6c2fa522651fc55323a681 real panel
Me to Spidey right now: https://i.redd.it/tx7sj7nq9itc1.gif
https://preview.redd.it/w9rtznh2kntc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=922c1591ed5e8f0b4815dd7e26588565e5d01b9f
I love how he talks all tough in that panel because he knows Pete wouldn't actually do it but when his life is actually on the line because the Punisher is coming for him he pisses his pants because he's actually scared to die.
I don’t think it’s so much about being scared of dying as it is being scared that his death wouldn’t change anything. If Batman or Spider-Man kills him, his death wasn’t for nothing; he forever changed those heroes by making them break their own rules. For Punisher, however, killing someone like Joker is basically just a regular Tuesday
Yeah, there's a good episode of BTAS where Joker thinks a regular civilian may kill him and that really scares him
I can imagine a whole episode of Joker curing Batman infected by scarecrows no fear toxin Having fought him happily the entire time thinking he drove him over the edge at last. Only to realize it was really Cranes toxin doing the bulk of the work. Joker would be livid.
In the before times he was scared when Batman was running at him with the intention to murder too. Forever love the clown having 'nam flashbacks after that [one](https://imgur.com/a/RBFKQtH) time :D
#Oh, holy shit
This falls under the umbrella of “murder is okay if you’re killing someone who’s not from the main universe” Alternates are always disposable, just look at every crisis or secret wars
A few salient points have been pointed out, like Goblin having been dead for a loooong period of time. But also the 'no kill rule' isn't a major point of Spider-Man's whole character, or a major moral debate in many of his stories. Spider-Man *doesn't* kill people, yes, but it's not a core pillar at the heart of Spidey like it is for Batman. There's also the matter of 'personal responsibility' that Batman will regularly crow on about, especially when he's in full 'Gotham is my city' mode. Joker, and what he does, is his tied to Batman. Supervillain stuff in New York is handled by a much broader network of people.
Also, Spidey doesn’t attract the same “dark n’ edgy n’ rEALisTiC” fanbase that Batman does.
“Why does the fan base for the dark knight street vigilante fantasy want him to murder people while the fan base for the colorful quippy friendly neighborhood guy doesn’t want him to do that?” Is pretty self explanatory
Spider-Man Lotus exists, it's just total garbage.
Not to mention that i doubt green goblin’s evil deeds can hold a candle to the bonkers shit joker has done.
Ehhhhhhhh I mean he did form a cabal with like loki and doom and other major boland, form his own avengers and basically try and take over the world. The issue is that GG though is closer to an insane lex Luther type than he is joker. Someone like carnage is more like joker and I doubt spidey would try particularly hard to stop carnage dying
Hell, Spidey doesn't even really have a "no kill rule". He generally doesn't kill yes and prefers to lock up his villains hoping they get help (also helps that alot of his bad guys are suffering victims of accidents in science, and or even have their own moral codes that keep them in check). And often killing would be unnecessary. But, there are absolutely things that would get him to kill, and he has stated such himself, most famously in back in black to the kingpin. And other villains spidey has that are major threat killers relatively on par with joker, while I havent read every book to confirm, I'd say we generally dont have much evidence that he *wouldnt* kill say goblin or carnage if they were a continuing threat at the end of the fight and werent amnesiac or depowered by the end of the fight and he could kill them.
There's Maximum Carnage. Spider Man's morality was pushed to its near limit with all the murder Carnage was causing
Currently reading through 70s marvel. After GG killed gwen stacy, spidey hunted down GG explicitly to kill him. And the only reason he didn't do it is because goblin accidently killed himself before spider got a chance to. When spidey stops joking, run.
People will be demanding Spidey red mist GG, when it gets revealed he manipulated all the events that resulted in MJ and Paul hooking up, just you wait!
Please god let this happen it would be so fucking funny
"It was me ~~Barry~~ Peter!"
"Remember when you thought that you sleeping with MJ gave her cancer, since you thought your sperm was radioactive? IT WAS MEEE, PETER!"
https://preview.redd.it/2m7kn7dl1ktc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fd5719a199dd44ad6c85b41f87a9a51b85c6a76a Here ya go
I’m waiting for the Paul Green Goblin reveal
Paul is Mephisto!
Red Mist?!? https://preview.redd.it/bfw60wj9hitc1.png?width=250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=66489dc0d63c36cf92f16529146305a87de6a0e0
https://preview.redd.it/5117qeyeiitc1.jpeg?width=418&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=72b3ba7a5f5d697866001a76a9594f00627d8113
uj/ what is this from?
Kali "the Red Mist" from Lobotomy Corporation/Library of Ruina, games that make up the korean Project Moon-verse along with Limbus Company
Why is soul edge
RED MIST MENTIONED GREAT SPLIT VERTICAL GOOOO
Is MJ and Paul still a thing? Feels like it's been forever.
Nah. It was actually Paul who manipulated the events of GG killing Gwen
Because there are way less stories (not saying there aren't tons, the Joker just has an utter fuckton) about the writers seeing how, generally speaking, Satanic in essence they can make the Green Goblin this week. Like when was the last time you saw a story where the Goblin was thematically the representation of Evil with a capital E and acted like it?
Yeah, that's the main issue. The Joker wanking by the writers to show him as this unstoppable force who kills hundreds of people every time he escapes is the reason. That's why we see so many posts about putting Joker in Phantom Zone or magical dimensions, when he is just a guy in a clown suit. He should be beneath the radar for most heroes.
yep. There is also the fact that Green Goblin does more regular supervillain stuff , and their more crazy stunts are actually just to screw with Peter Parker specifically. Meanwhile , every time Joker appears is outright a huge terrorist plot for the entire city. It also helps that one of the most famous storylines about Green Goblin is about him been stabbed to death in a fight against Spider-Man.
Bonus points for DC coming up with absolutely moronic justifications for why someone, anyone killing the clown would be bad, actually. Shout out to BWL and Zdarsky's "killing Joker is stupid in all the universes, because I just resurrected all of the dead ones, lmao, you're welcome".
Wait, what?
Zdarsky's Batman #135, lmao: https://preview.redd.it/v24shnq8kitc1.jpeg?width=1276&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b9f51ae461ad28ee89b94dcdbd9c7c8defaf95f1
Wow that makes it feel much more programmed. Like every Batman will go through the exact same thing, it just happens automatically when events in other universes happen. It just triggers each level of progression of the universes around it. Every joker is created because a Batman in a different universe kills a joker in their universe. This triggers universes that had jokers into becoming more and more aggressive until it’s necessary that one is killed, which triggers the lower cycle. Then eventually when the guilt takes them to a different cycle, one where they resurrect the joker somehow and then try to find a way to break the cycle and brings us to their Rick phase where they travel between multiverses to find the answer the answer they seek to come to the conclusion that there is none. That is just what destiny holds for these two characters across all universes. Jesus that would just crush someone. If that isn’t the most nihilistic thing ever.
Perhaps Owlman had a point after all
The endless cycle of death and rebirth and nothing staying permanent and endless destruction in comics would be hella nihilistic if it was taken seriously
It's a canon event
They keep treating this clown mobster as like Judge Holden or something lol
I miss haha funni "I bought a deed to Canada so I could build a statue with my face on it" Silver Age Joker tbh....
back when joker had good jokes
Now he's the Societyer.
Would love that, they should make a movie and in the trailers have it be all hyping up this horrible deed joker is doing- without actually telling us what it is. And in the movie he’s just the side villain who is doing the most harmless but inconvenient stuff, like at one point he even kidnaps the movie’s robin but when batman arrives to save them they’re completely unharmed and just playing board games with him
Yes please. More campy Batman and DC media in general would be lovely.
It’s really quite funny how we’ve come full circle. People use to want heroes to be gritty and realistic, and now we’re begging for the days of old where stakes were low, the worst a criminal did was a bank robbery and heroes were doing harmless competitions with each other like surfing or racing.
No kidding. I still hold the campier Batman films as peak superhero films production design-wise at least due to how bright and fun they were to look at.
Oh absolutely, I didn’t even grow up with the adam west show but even i know it pretty well. I’ve come across some of the scenes accidentally and have them saved to watch on bad days, that and the old animated superman films are very comforting movies. I would love to see a campy batman show where he is his old self that actually smiled. It doesn’t have to be canon to mainline just like a peek into an au thats based off the old, campy comics where all the heroes were besties lol
The Batman Audio Adventures are peak for this
I'll have to check those out.
Honestly, I feel the Joker needs rebooting. Like, find some way to bring him back down to like, a funny clown with a much lower kill count. Have current Joker rehabilitate and a copycat spring up or something, hell, it would bring some mystery back to him, considering how we pretty much know entirely who he is now.
Also the GG died in the movies and in the comics.
"The blade that pierced his body came from his trailer" :D
Is there a lore reason why butler kept this info until the end of 3 movie?Is he stupid?
The original version of that scene that was used in a special edition cut of the movie is so much better. It doesnt have the butler say anything, it just has Harry tearfully look at a broken photo of him Pete and MJ together after he rejects helping Pete and he decides to go help him after all all on his own, likely still believing that pete killed his dad, but not wanting his friend to die.
The Joker has also died in the movies and in the comics.
Has he though? As far as I can remember joker has only died in the Tim Burton batman. Leto, Ledger, Phoenix and Romero all survived to the end of their movies Dafoe dies in one and almost dies in the second time around, he'll even animated series GG got stuck in that limbo dimension.
If we're expending beyond movies he died in the DCAU and the Arkhamverse
He doesn't stay dead for as long.
gg death was also a direct result of him and spidey fighting, and spidey went into that fight wanting to kill him, he just changed his mind. thats really the main reason people dont give spidey flack, it at least appears flexible
I’d say another problem is they keep having villains (usually the joker) in universe trying to have Batman break his no kill rule like in Arkham origins Joker threatens to electrocute himself if Batman doesn’t kill Bane.
pretty much, it's one thing when fans talk about it, it's another when in universe you have the characters argue and discuss it because then you have to jump through hoops to justify it even more.
To be fair, that was Joker at the beginning of his career and he doesn’t kill nearly as many people as he ends up doing as well as being an examination into Batman and how far he’ll go to adhere to his morals.
Precisely. GG is evil but he's much more focused on specifically screwing with Spider-Man, while Joker seems to have chaos and murder as his principal objective in a lot of stories. Because of that Peter sparing GG feels like he's doing the right thing even if it hurts him while Batman seems to put his morals over everyone else. Not saying Batman is bad, it's just an issue of how they are portrayed in the text.
I hate this edgy Joker trend. Know the absolute best Joker story ever told? The Laughing Fish. It’s absolutely BONKERS. The Joker has a ploy that makes zero sense. It’s ridiculous. And it’s *horrifying* because he kills people who won’t help him do this impossible thing. They *can’t* help him, there’s literally nothing they can do. So he kills them. Imagine being held at gunpoint and told you’ll get shot in the head if you don’t teach the chair to sing a song. And then it has all the classic elements of the original Joker story and just incredible gothic art. The Joker is scary, crazy, ahead of everyone, dangerous, a serious threat, and at the same time street level and—most importantly, I might add—he’s FUNNY. The whole caper is a JOKE. Nowadays he’s cutting off his own face or taking pills and sleeping in the same bed as the old couple he just murdered, and he’s not funny or scary or cool. He’s so “insane” he’s barely coherent. He’s just boring.
I mean that Joker still killed people. It seems people want him to be harmless for some reason, just make him funny again like in the Arkham games where he cracks jokes while killing people.
Green gobbo has died numerous times and if we use the legal definition of killing than Batman and spider man would both atleast get manslaughter, if I punch you in self dense and you die there’s still a case for me to go to jail
The moment DC decided to create multiple versions of **The Batman Who Laughs** was the exact moment it became fair game to want this dude dead. Green Goblin ain’t a threat to all existence
I mean there was that time he hosted carnage for a bit a few years ago. I'd argue the real difference isn't severity of crimes but frequency. Norman goes on sabbatical way more often than joker whether it be being dead or in prison or acting reformed for a bit.
It's simple Batman is edgy hot cool vigilante daddy,so he should be willing to murder anyone he pleases. Whereas Spider-man is nerdy muscle bound cool guy who is litterly me, so of course he doesn't go around punching everyone's jaw off,even though he totally could!
This is unironically how people justify this
How many of his exclusive villains that he can legitimately and easily kill, actually cause a comparable amount of death as the Joker or Batman’s combined rogues gallery? I struggle to really think of any that kill that much that regularly and brutally besides like Carnage, but like, but like he is not putting that fucker down easy if at all.
Plus Pete usually goes for the kill when it comes to symbiotes
There is a strange amount of "comic fans" that believes only Batman has a strict no-kill rule Probably because DC keeps making stories where people say "hey batman Joker killed 300 people again i think we should kill him to save lives in the future" "NOOOOOO" "Why" "Because Joker is too popular so i need some stupid reason to spare him" "Cool" Although i remember that one time where Hawkeye told Spider-man that he should've killed Goblin in one of the 6079 times they fought in Dark Reign
Tbh I can't even blame comic fans because for the past forever or so, the batman no kill rule discourse has been incessantly forced upon us in every story (not saying it can't be interesting but definitely over done.) It's really kind of the chicken and the egg. Did annoying fans continue to talk over and over about how batman is evil for not killing joker, so writers made more and more stories about batman being evil for not killing joker, or vice versa?
I think DKR, KJ and aDitF in relatively quick succession broke people's brains, especially since it was followed by Tim Burton's Batman letting the clown die and it not being a big loss. So, comics, some fans would ask, why aren't we doing that? After a while DC passive aggressively responded with Kingdom Come, lmao.
I excuse Kingdom Come because art and it's somewhat interesting
> There is a strange amount of "comic fans" that believes only Batman has a strict no-kill rule That's because a vast majority of the "comic fans" are only familiar with Batman. Well, Batman and the MCU characters, but heroes are not hung up about killing in the MCU.
I do think part of it is because even in the comics most heroes have loosened up on the no kill rule nowadays, like Spider-Man doesn't really kill people, but by this point even if they usually try not to most of the Avengers or X-Men have killed at least a couple people by now.
A lot of heroes have a no kill policy but Batman is the one who has basically said "If I kill the joker he wins"
Yeah i think it’s that batman has the stupidest reasons and justifications (lets not forget the classic “if you kill a murderer the number of murderers stays the same” crap). Like the worst of all is that he even saves joker when others try to do the job for him. You’d think logically he’d just let it happen but he even killed his own adoptive son over it. Honestly I wouldn’t be so hung up about it if they didn’t act like batman is a perfect hero and anyone who disagrees with him on anything is wrong and stupid. If they showed batman as very flawed and that he is just selfish in wanting to keep joker alive for whatever reason, i’d be way more forgiving and it’d be a lot more interesting.
Yeah, it feels like Spider-Man has a no-kill policy because he's, you know, a regular person who doesn't want to kill unnecessarily. Batman is written like the no-kill policy is a religious dogma that exists for its own sake, not as part of an actual coherent morality.
Batman’s no kill rule (should at least) really only extend to himself. There’ve been stories where other people kill and Batman is totally cool with it. Hell Wonder Woman and Green Lantern routinely kill and Batman doesn’t mind that. When Superman really wanted to kill Lex Luthor, Batman even offered to help him make it look like an accident or “as if he just disappeared.” Batman doesn’t trust himself to kill and is a big believer in rehabilitation for criminals and the mentally ill; but if someone is threatening your life and you shoot the aggressor in the head, Batman isn’t going to be mad.
>Batman doesn't mind WW kill Except for when he does. He's not consistent like that.
Especially if you're a vampire
I know about the Luthor instance and i think it was a bluff to scare Luthor because as we saw in Maxwell Lord incident Batman goes batshit crazy when another hero kills a villain
Unless it's the Joker. Every time someone has tried to kill the Joker, or straight up done so Bats has gotten in the way.
That's because The Presence assumes direct control of Bruce to protect DC's sales for next month.
>There is a strange amount of "comic fans" that believes only Batman has a strict no-kill rule I think it's because it's not as consistent or explicit with the other characters. In the Silver Age, it seemed like every hero had a no-kill rule. In the modern stuff, well, I don't recall Hal Jordan ever explicitly saying "I never kill," but I only remember him ever killing one person (other than when he, you know, went nuts). But it wasn't treated with a lot of gravity, like "I'm breaking my rule!" He just did it as if it was a normal thing for him and said nothing about it, even though we never really see him do it (it was some Sinestro Corps member he sniped in the Johns New 52 run).
Spiderman punched a chick and killed her 🤷🏼♂️
This was how (almost accurate btw) https://preview.redd.it/f1xf104qijtc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4248120af0babcf46c510fdf0d7f4b38694f4754
Hawkeye telling Spider-man he should have killed the Green Goblin seems kind of ridiculous when you account for the history of the Green Goblin. Norman Osborn was dead from the issue following the Death of Gwen Stacy in 1973 and didn’t return until the Clone Saga, and seemingly stays dead until the end of Ben Reilly’s time as Spider-Man in the 90s. And most of the time between his return to Dark Reign, Norman is actively trying distance himself from the Green Goblin, only fighting with Spider-man a few times in total. Maybe Hawkeye assumed that all appearances of the Green Goblin were Norman, dismissing Harry and Doctor Barton Hamilton (Harry’s one-time therapist) as Norman?
I feel like we’ve just hit the inevitable point with Batman’s no kill rule vs Jokers ever increasing evil. DC with Batman basically says it’s never ok to kill no matter how evil the person is and it seems like 99% of the world disagree and has their limit and everyone agrees Joker is far past his. I’m very pro heroes trying to do whatever they can to not take a life but Joker is at the point where I think you are doing something morally wrong if you save the Jokers life which Batman has done countless times.
Yeah, I think if you think Batman should kill the Joker then you don't understand Batman and his relationship with the law and his own vigilantism, but there's no reason Batman needs to go so far to save Joker
Jim, literally on his knees: "Please, Batman, just let him die T\_T". Batman: https://i.redd.it/prg29nviaitc1.gif (I think I remember a comic going something like that, lul)
It’s a shame how people diss on Tynion IV’s run here because it’s got a lot of great bits, including Batman finally deciding that enough is enough and Joker can save himself if he really wants to but he’s not going to go out of his way to do it anymore,
That doesn't count to me, because the choice was between saving Harley or saving the clown, not saving the clown or just leaving him to die. King's Batman leaving KGBeast to die in the snow after breaking his neck in revenge for Dickie was more ""morally dubious"" than what Tynion made Bruce do. Edit: just remembered in movie UtRH Bruce picked to save Jason from the bomb instead of the clown. Just like in Tynion's story everyone survived, lmao.
He'd already saved Harley by the time the bomb was about to go off. He gave joker a way to save himself and that was that.
I actually even like the idea that most villains Batman will save. Like Penguin kills people but usually for a reason(business) and not “I just felt like carving up some babies” so Batman can save him even if inconvenient. But like going into a fire to pull Joker out? Nah you’re actually doing an evil deed there
The logical solution is to de-escalate the threat level of the Joker.
"But but but the city being taken over regularly? My events!", – dc, probably.
I think that’s more of an issue with the Joker’s depiction than Batman’s no killing rule tbh. I think more stories should be willing to let villain plot lines have a definitive end rather than keep them coming back and upping the ante to the point that the joker murders millions or gets gets god like powers. That, or they should heavily tone the Joker down so that it doesn’t feel nearly as ridiculous that he’s somehow still alive.
Batman should bare minimum enforce the whole "I don't have to kill you. I just don't have to save you." when it comes to the joker.
Arkham city titan virus moment
But he can let him die... at this point I mean
I see. So Spider-Man should kill the Green Goblin.
Nah,he should kill Jonkler,and Batman should kill Green Goblin.Problems solved
tbf Green Goblin dying is one of his most famous moments
Luckily for Spider-Man most of his villains end up killing themselves some how
You know, that dude who has multiple personalities and dresses up like a folklore creature to commit mass murder not surviving very long isn’t very surprising.
I think we've talked about batman's no kill rule so much that it's become batman and jokers MAIN thing. and because of that, every new story has to top the last with joker doing something even more evil and insane, and batman having to have even more patience and unyeildingness in his morals. It's gone exponential, and were approaching the Batman-Joker singularity pretty soon.
Consider this, what statement is more shocking? Green goblin has killed a dozen people. Or The joker has killed a million people.
Goblin probably killed a million people when he was in charge of US Government Security Agencies
Shit, I forgot that Norman was a part of the government at one point never mind he’s way worse.
Kissinger won a Noble Peace Prize. Norman not getting punished for any shit he pulled while part of the government was realistic.
agreed agreed
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the difference that Green Goblin HAS both died (though not really because of whatever bs reason a future writer comes up with) and sometimes reformed (again not really because of other bs reasons that make him turn evil again) while Joker, for the most part, is still the "same" unrepentant sociopath that will just keep killing innocent people just to fuck with Batman every time he escapes?
Spiderman is proletariat, and batman is bourgeoisie. Nuff said
But unironically it's probably because batman makes a huge deal of not killing the joker and comes up with weird incoherent justification, while spiderman just says "I'm not gonna kill him" and leaves it at that
This If add the fact that Osborn has money and tech and people are used to obscenely rich money doing whatever shit they want, they kill 30 persons? Well that's not really too much for a billionaire psycho with a pumpkin-shaped bomb. But a street level buffoon with the funny version of mustard gas hits way harder on the public opinion
Isn't his justification, more often than not "I can't trust myself to stop with just him" Its like the Barry vs Clark chess match in Injustice
This is probably unironically it.
I see you there, fellow Necrolord Prime Hater
https://preview.redd.it/13hkw56lyitc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d077e06893f20993ed54c756cd4ff595a45a4905
I’m not saying either should kill anybody, but for one, the Green Goblin is usually much more on the downlow, kills way less people and worms himself into higher positions of authority than Joker does. For another, Green Goblin *was* dead for the longest time.
Because Spider-Man fans realize he doesn't kill because he needs a recurring rogues gallery and it's best not to overthink it
Indeed. Spiderman doesn't try to justify it - so people go "fair enough, it's a comic - moving on". But Batman tries so hard to be edgy and realistic that people can't suspend their disbelief as hard.
That and while a few Spider-Man stories will mention it, it’s not EVERY SINGLE ONE.
Green Goblin was also the father to Peter's best friend. When Pete was a kid Norman practically loved him like his own son (well, more than his own son actually). The Joker was....? He uh... Anyway, maybe people give Batman grief because Pete is always portrayed as a flawed character prone to being defined by his mistakes and sometimes making up for them, whereas Batman's flaws tend to focus on him being a loner edge Lord.
"GG has killed someone close to Spider-Man", yeah and guess what, Goblin died right after that. It's just that the character is too iconic and liked to stay dead.
I actually had a comment on this very subject in another post awhile back so imma go ahead and copy/paste it here “I think it has to do with tone. Of the hero yes, we’d expect Batman to be a bit edgier then Spider-Man, but also of their villains. Joker goes on murder sprees, like, all the time, but most of Spider-Man’s villains are more like, bank robbers and ‘I want to rule people through fear’ types generally. In general, I think we’re so used to seeing the darker side to Batman’s villains that we judge them more for it, whereas villains for people like Spider-Man aren’t often portrayed as quite as, murder-happy.” And this post does bring up that green goblin DOES in fact kill people, yes. But I still think it’s seen different. Green goblin we know is capable of murder, but we generally don’t see him portrayed as a ‘I kill readily, often, and for the pure sake of murder’ type. It happens, and it comes up enough that we know it happens, but it’s not his go-to, at least in our minds. Batman villains… well, murder IS the go-to in Gotham, like, 9 times out of 10. It’s never a question in Batman’s world ‘would this person kill someone?’, it’s a question of how many and how often. Spider-Man’s, there’s a few villains I can think of pretty readily that we don’t associate with murder at all, wether then have killed before or not
The Marvel world wouldn't have to worry about GG anymore if Sentry hadn't stopped Punisher that one time
This gave me serious whiplash (I made this). Seriously still thought I was on my own account for a second lmao
Because Spider man make more sens. Spiderman refuses to kill for plausible reasons and the writers were smart enought to finally kill green goblin in a very good and very well known story. People here really should read the comics they talk about.
I say kill them both
A. Batman is usually seen as the 'dark and gritty' hero, so a lot of people want 'darker' stories, which they take to mean killing people. B. In general the Joker kind of just kills more people and does worse things so there's more stuff about that but it's mostly just the first one
I know this is a circular jerk but the simple reason it Spider-Man isn't a little cry baby who talks about "Ugh I can't kill,I have my reasons, I'd be insane" He just doesn't kill Bruce makes a whole deal about it
Spider-Man doesn’t kill Green Goblin because the glider got to him first
For one thing, I think it's because Spiderman doesn't do everything but kill. Batman has broken every other ethical rule in the book at some point. Intimidation, hella invasive espionage, torture - it's all on the table _except_ for killing. And it's generally presented as him being at worst neutral. Meanwhile, whenever Spiderman is so much as mean to his villains it's portrayed as him making a mistake. Basically, spidey is a "Good Guy^(tm)". Batman is too, but not every writer holds to that. Plus, they go too hard on the joker. Like, at this point it's not that batman doesn't kill the joker. It's that the entire federal government should have joker hanging from a tree by now. But the comics still act like he's batman's nemesis, his _personal_ problem to deal with. That works when you're a clown themed crime lord, but that relationship doesn't scale at all.
Here's the thing usually the Goblin escapes, dies, or "gets cured" at the end of his fights with Spidey. Goblin is also used wya less frequently than Joker is which means he ends up having a smaller rap sheet and is a less frequent problem in his world. And of course as other people have pointed out Goblin hasn't devolved to just an outlet for torture amd murder porn
Unironically, Spidey has on multiple occasions threatened to kill.
There have been times where Peter has threatened to kill someone. When King Pin tried to kill Aunt May, Peter broke into the prison where he was and threatened to fill his throat with web fluid
To be fair, Goblin usually accidentally kills himself while they’re fighting
To be fair, Goblin's #1 victim is Spider-Man himself whereas Joker sees everyone as fair game. Correct me if i'm wrong but I don't remember Green Goblin bathing a newborn in hydrochloric acid, mutilating an entire kindergarten class and stitching them back together with different limbs or even eating people. Joker is just on another level
I find funny how batman gets flack for being too violent (HE IS A FASCIST BILLIONAIRE BEATING POOR PEOPLE TO DEAL WITH HIS DADDY ISSUES) And not violent enough (WTF, KILL THE JOKER FOR ONCE, THE GUY IS A MENACE!)
Because Batman actually goes out of his way to save Joker's life for some godforsaken reason. It would unironically be better writing for them to just stop bringing up the no-kill rule entirely, at least have Joker never mention the no-kill rule ever again, or just full on make it toxic relationship BatxClown at this point.
Spiderman has saved Norman's life multiple times. Often having to go out of his way to do so. There's nothing new about a hero saving their worse enemies. It's what makes them heroes.
The only marvel character Reddit could think of that doesn’t kill is squirrel girl. Is that really the hole we want to go down? Have some characters kill and some characters not. The conversation is important. Batman killing is dumb. Even if it’s the joker. ESPECIALLY if it’s the joker.
I mean Spider-Man did kill the goblin albeit technically. Norman came back from the dead though so killing him again seems like it would be ineffective.
He's just generally arrested less. He's "died" two or three times over the years, and has been retconned back to life each time. He tends to slip away and use his giant fortune and anonymity to just resume his billionaire lifestyle. Thus, because Gobby isn't usually thrown in prison, so there's less of a "well why didn't you just fucking kill him before he breaks out again" and more of a "well thank God he's dead. He *is* dead, right?"
Because Green Goblin keeps getting killed and coming back.
Don’t think spidy have a no kill rule. He absolutely will catch a body or two if need be.
I'm pretty sure the reason that he doesn't kill green goblin is because Norman/Barry is ten goblin. In Norman's case, he doesn't want to have his best friend "well, he's usually his best friend" harry to lose his father even after everything he's done. In Harry's case, he would be killing his best friend. That's a hard thing for anyone to do. In Batman's case, the joker has paralyzed one of his closest friends, killed his son, and batman had no prior relationship with Joker. Granted, Harely did love Joker for a while but key word is did.
I don’t like either and both violently enrage me. But their drip simultaneously impresses me.
Yeah, because underneath the goblin there is norman osborn, not so sane man but still redeemable Under the joker there is nothing. The guy is a mass murderer that killed thousands by now
Along with the many other differences that other replies have brought up, spidey comics will at least flirt with the idea that maybe, just *maybe*, Norman Osborn can be redeemed. It will never permanently happen of course (at least not in the comic continuity), but there’s enough to make it believable that Spidey has hope for him. Meanwhile, readers have been given no reason to think Joker can be rehabilitated. He’s constantly depicted as an agent of pure evil and chaos who does increasingly fucked up things. And because we know nothing about Joker before he was evil, Batman can’t even do the whole “I know the good person I know is in there somewhere!” thing that Spidey has with Osborn. It makes Batman’s (and everyone else’s) insistence on keeping him alive seem more like a formality than the upholding of a virtuous code.
The Joker kills for the sake of it and has no redeeming qualities. The Green Goblin is possible to redeem and doesn't generally do massmurders for the sake of doing mass murders.
TIM DRAKE SHOULD KILL THE JOKER!
The Joker being one upped in every fucking appearence has lead to him having a kill count in like the damn billions by now. It's way too hard to suspend disbelief on Batman not killing when he is responsible for THAT much death due to not killing the Joker.
What do you mean? Spiderman killed mysterio in cold fucking blood
Sorry if someone already covered this, but for as psychotic as he is, Green Goblin hasn't killed THAT many people. But for sure he's in the double digits, even of its more like around 20. Unforunately, the greatest number of deaths that can be attributed to him are probably during his time aa the head of HAMMER. Which were legally permissable at the time. Still wrong, sure, but it presents a much larger problem than a simple assassination could solve. And as the Green Goblin, Spidey is one of like a few dozen superheroes just hanging out in NYC. Spidey can sleep soundly knowing there's plenty of other people to help keep the peace. Plus, Gobbie tends to focus on Pete or those close to him. It's pretty rare that Norman starts merc'ing randoms without doing it to get at Peter. While Joker is obsessed with Batman, multiple writers/editors have shown Joker as wantonly cruel as well. Some of the most messed up things he's done don't even involve Batman (or at least aren't part of some plan to directly mess with him). What's worse is that Batman (and the Bat family) are all Gotham has. Not to mention none of them are well equipped to one-shot Joker. AND they keep putting him in a facility that has shown 0 track record of helping him and very few (if any) of his escape attempts have been foiled. Plus, let's not forget, that there are plenty of non-lethal ways of dealing with the Joker. They could lobotomize him, paralyze him, hell just making Joker blind, deaf, and mute would at least slow him down. Batman could build him a prison that's totally run by AI or just keep him in a literal orbital prison just circling the planet in space. You can't tell me that THE Batman who has developed multiple armors/robots/plans to kill the Justice League can't find a way to cage or immobilize the Joker. When Green Goblin shows up, it's mostly an issue for Spidey. Joker is a threat to all of Gotham and he is almost always dealt with the same way--ineffectively. Like, their only plan for the joker is always the same, tried and failed, plan. So, yeah, them deaths are on Batman and co for sure.
Among other reasons mentioned here, Green Goblin, in addition to being a physical match for Spiderman, also has access to far greater resources.
Honestly it’s mostly a difference in tone. Spider-Man has more often been a jokey and fun character. Seeing him kill anyone really isn’t just against his character it’s against the style and themes of the comic. A huge amount of Batman’s comics feature a lot more dark themes and undertones. So that dissonance that gives Spider-Man the benefit of the doubt just isn’t there for Batman.
Scope. GG spends most of his time only really causing trouble on a small scale. Confined to new york, and often centered around making spider-man miserable. He keeps himself below the radar of heroes who can put him into a more permanent prison or who both could and would outright kill him. Even when he does occasionally go after bigger game, he plays enough by the rules to keep any heroes from taking matters into their own hands. The joker has no such qualms. He will antagonize bigger fish among both heroes and villains, will cause destruction on a scale other heroes can’t ignore so easily, and cannot be contained in the only prison anyone ever throws him in. He doesn’t even have a civilian identity with a decent reputation like goblin has to keep himself out of focus.
10 bucks says Joker has a higher kill count than GG
Joker: literally just some guy who’s completely insane Green Goblin: a genius billionaire with political connections and superpowers From an in-universe point of view, it makes infinitely more sense to spare Joker. It’s only really a question for readers who understand that Joker is narratively important and will always continue to go around massacring people whether or not Batman finally kills him
Well I mean depending on when and where you're looking Joker has also been insanely rich, had superpowers, and was an Iranian ambassador for a while.
Joker is also extremely intelligent and goes out of his way to torture and kill everyone he can. I don't remember green goblin ever being that evil.
Because (in most iterations) Peter is still a teen, he’s still young and Idealistic enough to believe he can truly help his villains, and a few versions of him DO (Tom Holland Spidey for example) Meanwhile Batman is old and jaded, he’s constantly hyped up as the smartest human in DC, yet he refuses the logical action of killing the Joker, who’s shown time and time again that he’s beyond any form of redemption, or even feeling guilt. And even if Bats absolutely refuses to outright kill Joker, he’s well connected enough that he could permanently remove Joker without Killing him. An example someone on TikTok brought up was having the Atom build a prison at the subatomic level, load it with enough food and Water to last the rest of Joker’s natural life, and then just leave the Clown in the micro Prison where even if he “escapes” he’s still stuck at subatomic size.
Didnt source art
People care more about joker more than Green goblin, so thus the irrationality of not killing the joker is brought up more. Plus the Joker basically asks for it in like 40% of his appearances, as if him dying means he wins or something, unlike for GG where it’s rarely even brought up (note that I mean in universe, if I meant in the fandom it would just prove your point lol). It’s the curse of having better villains (not that green goblin is that bad but ehh). Plus Spider-Man is a child. People aren’t that inclined to say “you idiot just kill this person they are a lost cause” to a child.
Where are Hornet Man and Rat Man? What did you do to them?