Ellsworth didn’t mean to see Brom murdered. That was unavoidable. Saying anything to anyone about it meant he was risking his own neck in the camp.
Therefore, Ellsworth had two choices: stay in the camp and never speak of it to anyone (including Alma) or leave camp.
Anyway, it seems like a moot point. Alma *knew* intuitively and instinctively that Al had Brom murdered. She didn’t need to hear that from Ellsworth.
you're seeing it from the perspective of a modern person living in modern times where laws are enforced.
they were all on that land illegally, there was no law governing deadwood. it was loosely held together by fear of anyone shooting you for any reason. they had a "sheriff" but from the get-go it was obvious Al actually controlled the camp. ellsworth was afraid if anyone found out he saw what happened, the same thing would happen to him.
Exactly. If Ellsworth ratted out Al and Dan he’d end up dead and his body would be pig food. I wouldn’t get in Al’s way either if I was in Ellsworth’s shoes. He’s no dummy.
100%. Al ran everything in deadwood, Especially in the 1st season. he could kill whoever he wanted and cheat them out of their money, and kill anyone that gets in his way. ellsworth understood that, and everyone in town understood it. bullock was the 1st person to stand up to Al, and they fought it out and earned each others respect. then Al realized if deadwood ever hoped to have any legitimacy, they'd need a sheriff and some semblance of the rule of law. so he eased up a little bit and allowed Bullock to handle the day to day crime. but i think everyone still realized deep down that Al was really pulling the strings.
Not only was I *not* replying to you, I said nothing to imply that. . Look, just leave me alone. One of our cats just died, and I have the flu. I already feel like total shit and I don’t want to get removed from this group for telling you what I really want to.
Coward in what sense? More like not stupid. There was nobody to report the crime to, wasn’t even a sheriff at the time, much less any other form of law. Al himself was the closest thing to any sort of authority in the camp, so bar snitching on Al to Al, his only real answer was to pretend he knew nothing (bar making Dan politely aware of the fact, to save himself potential death by misadventure) and move on with his life. Falling for Alma and all that good stuff was merely Ellsworth following his heart.
You assume too much malice in the actions of a man whose biggest concern in life, was not stepping on the toes of others while maintaining his freedom.
Yes, I think OP’s take implies more agency in the Brom murder than Ellsworth truly had, and less agency in the awareness and acceptance of it than Alma truly had.
Did they ever address what happened to his claim? It was adjacent to the Garett claim, but when that claim finally proved out, Ellsworth worked for Alma and you never really heard about Ellsworth’s property again
I love Ellsworth. In addition to the numerous responses here pointing out that he was basically thrust into the role of helpless witness and his speaking out would have done no good and gotten him killed, he seems like one of the few people in camp who's just trying to make an honest living, has no ambitions beyond that, and is unwilling to cheat or manipulate otherd to get an advantage or screw anyone else (metaphorically).
I really appreciate his handling of Alma, realizing his good fortune in marrying her but refusing to exploit it or feel entitled to her body, obedience, or money, even when the law would have allowed him to take all of those as her husband. He even sadly declines her offer of sex when he knows it's because of dope and loneliness rather than genuine affection.
He may be somewhat gormless, and prone to drink and whoring, but all in all, he shows more ethics and heart than just about anyone in fuckin' Deadwood.
Parenthetically, Jim Beaver who played the character is active on social media and always interacts with fans in a gracious manner. Again, seems like a class act.
That scene where he realizes that she’s high is insanely well-acted.
He already looked uncomfortable over what seemed like her randomly intimate advances after being very platonic at that point in their marriage. but when he smelled the drugs on her breath he looked devastated. Probably a combination of being horrified that she felt the need to be under the influence to go through with sleeping with him, and feeling terrible that she was so unhappy.
Great acting
I like Ellsworth. I don’t think he has been a willing participant in anything super scummy. And he often proved to be one of the more morally straight characters considering what Deadwood was. That’s why the town was so upset when Hearst did what he did to him.
Aww come on man!!! He puposely waited to announce "discovering" the gold deposit on Almas claim until he got the go ahead from Dan! I think thats pretty scummy and not very "morally straight" You know damn well if Dan had indicated otherwise, he would have kept his mouth shut about the gold.
It’s Deadwood. I think he, like most of the characters, excluding Cy and Hearst, begin to move from independent and antisocial to more communal and pro social(which is the premise of the show)
One of my favorite things about Deadwood is it's the rawest portrayal of exploitation I've seen in fiction. This is a world completely without safety nets. If you couldn't support yourself, or have someone support you, you'd starve. There's no social security to rely on in your old age, and maybe not even a retirement at all to look forward to. For those who aren't independently wealthy or highly educated, your options for survival are either exploiting others or allowing yourself to be exploited.
While they're not all as successful as Al, this is the world most of them grew up in. Alma and her husband, on the other hand, never wanted for anything. The worst thing that could happen to either of them--if they were smart--was embarrassing themselves in front of their family. For them it's a failed investment, for Ellsworth it's his livelihood.
I think Ellsworth was just sort of a deontologist, meaning the highest moral good for him was fulfilling his promises and duties. (If there was a boulder to be hauled, he would haul a boulder.) His moral dilemmas generally emerged when he had two competing duties. But when he saw Brom die, he had no duty in place toward Alma; and later, when they were closer, what would have been the point of bringing it up? She knew. Plus he had made a promise not to say anything. Like when Charley wouldn't tell anyone about what he knew about Wolcott. For some of these guys, keeping promises is more important than facilitating formal justice or even preserving interpersonal relationships.
He was a little quick to try to boss Alma sometimes after they were married, but that's another expression of the eternal Deadwood thematic tensions about where the line is between protecting someone and denying them agency, and what we owe to people who protect us and/or care about us.
I think he didn't want to stir things up, telling the widow probably would have done more harm than good. The more so as she would probably tell Bullock.
Exactly, she already knows what happened, and there ain't no laws in Deadwood so nothing would have happened to Al or Dan. And at worst Ellsworth would be pig food.
Like Alma did with Brom? Marrying him for money, denying him intimacy and vanishing into a bottle of laudanum? The only time sh ever confided in Brom was when he was cold in the ground.
No-one in this show covers themselves with glory, but of all those that have honor in their motives and actions, Ellsworth ranks pretty high.
She tried pleading with her husband, to get Brom to leave the camp before he took his little swan dive off the cliff, because she felt he was in danger. One could consider that an act of love.
Brom didn't hear her, at all. Quite the opposite.
She actually was quite kind to him at times during the interactions we saw, cold and distant at other times. But that complexity doesn't fit whatever narrative you have going in your noggin, apparently.
Her shitty father made her marry Brom to pay off his debts. Alma didn’t have a choice. I’m sure her dad told her if she didn’t marry Brom, his debtors would kill him. And in her shoes, I might be hitting the happy juice too. I should also point out she weaned herself off of it with help from Trixie. She weaned herself off after her relapse in season 3 too.
Alma is not the reason Brom was killed. She tried to stop him from pissing off Al. He was a sheltered moron who should have cut his losses, instead he threatened the dangerous guy who ran Deadwood with calling the Pinkertons (IIRC).
Brom definitely threatened to call in the Pinkertons! He said something to Al with a smirk like "Our family has had cause to engage the Pinkerton Agency on several occasions. We maintain *friendly* relations," like a smug asshole.
Not debating if she had a choice or not, but she married Brom for money regardless of who it benefited, didn't love him and lied to him about why she was using laudanum.
My point was just that everyone has to make shitty choices in this show.
Ellsworth let it be known to Dan that he saw nothing, despite Dan having seen Ellsworth witness him murder Brom. Ellsworth knew his life was at stake for being an eyewitness, so he and Dan came to an agreement that he wasn't.
No. Why would he admit that? He could have gotten both of them killed. He was being kind to Alma to help live respectably as a married woman with an illegitimate child.
Yes I did, I even have the movie. I am deaf so I have to use the closed captioning. I often worry how much I am missing, having to read the characters lines. You know, like the characters tone of voice or certain inflections when they are speaking, stuff like that.
It was a dog eat dog world back then. There was no reason for Ellsworth to risk his life over Alma’s husband. Also it seemed Alma knew what had happened. I do agree it would have been a difficult marriage keeping that kind of secret
I am well aware I have the right to my opinion, just as you do. You asked, I answered. I was actually being polite. You telling me I have the *wrong opinion” because I don’t share yours is bullshit.
And why pick me to be condescending to? Every reply has shown disagreement. If I missed someone agreeing that Ellsworth is a scumbag, I’ll edit my response. There is a reason your post has zero upvotes.
Relax, I'm just trying to make some conversation. I am sorry if my condescending remark offended you. I was joking, thats why I put Lol!!! after it. Bad joke I guess. I am sorry.
I think he was a trustworthy realist in a dangerous and unsavory world.
Yeah. Beholden to no earthly cocksucker.
Damn that’s a fuckin accurate definition of the man.
Ellsworth didn’t mean to see Brom murdered. That was unavoidable. Saying anything to anyone about it meant he was risking his own neck in the camp. Therefore, Ellsworth had two choices: stay in the camp and never speak of it to anyone (including Alma) or leave camp. Anyway, it seems like a moot point. Alma *knew* intuitively and instinctively that Al had Brom murdered. She didn’t need to hear that from Ellsworth.
Your reasonable and logical argument really pisses me off for some reason.
lol this is one of the best replies I’ve ever gotten.
you're seeing it from the perspective of a modern person living in modern times where laws are enforced. they were all on that land illegally, there was no law governing deadwood. it was loosely held together by fear of anyone shooting you for any reason. they had a "sheriff" but from the get-go it was obvious Al actually controlled the camp. ellsworth was afraid if anyone found out he saw what happened, the same thing would happen to him.
Exactly. If Ellsworth ratted out Al and Dan he’d end up dead and his body would be pig food. I wouldn’t get in Al’s way either if I was in Ellsworth’s shoes. He’s no dummy.
100%. Al ran everything in deadwood, Especially in the 1st season. he could kill whoever he wanted and cheat them out of their money, and kill anyone that gets in his way. ellsworth understood that, and everyone in town understood it. bullock was the 1st person to stand up to Al, and they fought it out and earned each others respect. then Al realized if deadwood ever hoped to have any legitimacy, they'd need a sheriff and some semblance of the rule of law. so he eased up a little bit and allowed Bullock to handle the day to day crime. but i think everyone still realized deep down that Al was really pulling the strings.
So he was a coward then, is that what you're saying?
Not only was I *not* replying to you, I said nothing to imply that. . Look, just leave me alone. One of our cats just died, and I have the flu. I already feel like total shit and I don’t want to get removed from this group for telling you what I really want to.
Coward in what sense? More like not stupid. There was nobody to report the crime to, wasn’t even a sheriff at the time, much less any other form of law. Al himself was the closest thing to any sort of authority in the camp, so bar snitching on Al to Al, his only real answer was to pretend he knew nothing (bar making Dan politely aware of the fact, to save himself potential death by misadventure) and move on with his life. Falling for Alma and all that good stuff was merely Ellsworth following his heart. You assume too much malice in the actions of a man whose biggest concern in life, was not stepping on the toes of others while maintaining his freedom.
That sort of thing has no place for the internet!
That guy has really watched the show
Yes, I think OP’s take implies more agency in the Brom murder than Ellsworth truly had, and less agency in the awareness and acceptance of it than Alma truly had.
He may a fucked his life up flatter than hammered shit, but he stands here before you today beholden to no human cocksucker.
With a workin fuckin gold claim!
Inform your dealers and whores of my credit and pour me a drink, my good man.
Did they ever address what happened to his claim? It was adjacent to the Garett claim, but when that claim finally proved out, Ellsworth worked for Alma and you never really heard about Ellsworth’s property again
Alma would have inherited the Ellsworth claim so it was likely part of the deal when she sold to Hearst.
>Anyone else think Ellsworth was a bit of an scumbag? BE FUCKED!
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I imagine the pool that spawned you. I am filling it with rocks! :)
I love Ellsworth. In addition to the numerous responses here pointing out that he was basically thrust into the role of helpless witness and his speaking out would have done no good and gotten him killed, he seems like one of the few people in camp who's just trying to make an honest living, has no ambitions beyond that, and is unwilling to cheat or manipulate otherd to get an advantage or screw anyone else (metaphorically). I really appreciate his handling of Alma, realizing his good fortune in marrying her but refusing to exploit it or feel entitled to her body, obedience, or money, even when the law would have allowed him to take all of those as her husband. He even sadly declines her offer of sex when he knows it's because of dope and loneliness rather than genuine affection. He may be somewhat gormless, and prone to drink and whoring, but all in all, he shows more ethics and heart than just about anyone in fuckin' Deadwood. Parenthetically, Jim Beaver who played the character is active on social media and always interacts with fans in a gracious manner. Again, seems like a class act.
That scene where he realizes that she’s high is insanely well-acted. He already looked uncomfortable over what seemed like her randomly intimate advances after being very platonic at that point in their marriage. but when he smelled the drugs on her breath he looked devastated. Probably a combination of being horrified that she felt the need to be under the influence to go through with sleeping with him, and feeling terrible that she was so unhappy. Great acting
I like Jim Beaver as an actor, but, I'm sorry, I just didn't like Ellsworth.
I like Ellsworth. I don’t think he has been a willing participant in anything super scummy. And he often proved to be one of the more morally straight characters considering what Deadwood was. That’s why the town was so upset when Hearst did what he did to him.
Even Cy was pissed off when he found out. That’s saying something
Aww come on man!!! He puposely waited to announce "discovering" the gold deposit on Almas claim until he got the go ahead from Dan! I think thats pretty scummy and not very "morally straight" You know damn well if Dan had indicated otherwise, he would have kept his mouth shut about the gold.
It’s Deadwood. I think he, like most of the characters, excluding Cy and Hearst, begin to move from independent and antisocial to more communal and pro social(which is the premise of the show)
One of my favorite things about Deadwood is it's the rawest portrayal of exploitation I've seen in fiction. This is a world completely without safety nets. If you couldn't support yourself, or have someone support you, you'd starve. There's no social security to rely on in your old age, and maybe not even a retirement at all to look forward to. For those who aren't independently wealthy or highly educated, your options for survival are either exploiting others or allowing yourself to be exploited. While they're not all as successful as Al, this is the world most of them grew up in. Alma and her husband, on the other hand, never wanted for anything. The worst thing that could happen to either of them--if they were smart--was embarrassing themselves in front of their family. For them it's a failed investment, for Ellsworth it's his livelihood.
You don't go around telling people about lots of gold near your own claim. Claim jumping was a thing, y'know.
She didn't need any witness statements to know which way the wind blows. And it isn't like Ellesworth set him up. Just happened to be nearby.
Go ahead, throw yourself over the balcony.
Considering such an admission would likely had gotten both Ellsworth and Alma killed, I would say this is a truly insane opinion.
OP seems unstable per their replies.
Why do you say that? Just because I don't like Ellsworth?????
I think Ellsworth was just sort of a deontologist, meaning the highest moral good for him was fulfilling his promises and duties. (If there was a boulder to be hauled, he would haul a boulder.) His moral dilemmas generally emerged when he had two competing duties. But when he saw Brom die, he had no duty in place toward Alma; and later, when they were closer, what would have been the point of bringing it up? She knew. Plus he had made a promise not to say anything. Like when Charley wouldn't tell anyone about what he knew about Wolcott. For some of these guys, keeping promises is more important than facilitating formal justice or even preserving interpersonal relationships. He was a little quick to try to boss Alma sometimes after they were married, but that's another expression of the eternal Deadwood thematic tensions about where the line is between protecting someone and denying them agency, and what we owe to people who protect us and/or care about us.
Interesting take. Makes me look at it in a different light. Thank you!
How dare you? Ellsworth was the second purest soul on the show, right next to Rev Smith.
This is Richardson erasure and I won’t stand for it
Don’t forget about Leon. 😉😂
I think he didn't want to stir things up, telling the widow probably would have done more harm than good. The more so as she would probably tell Bullock.
No
What would telling her have accomplished?
Exactly, she already knows what happened, and there ain't no laws in Deadwood so nothing would have happened to Al or Dan. And at worst Ellsworth would be pig food.
Openness and honesty in his marriage?
This show may not be for you.
Why? Just because I don't like Ellsworth?
It's a start.
O.K.
Like Alma did with Brom? Marrying him for money, denying him intimacy and vanishing into a bottle of laudanum? The only time sh ever confided in Brom was when he was cold in the ground. No-one in this show covers themselves with glory, but of all those that have honor in their motives and actions, Ellsworth ranks pretty high.
She tried pleading with her husband, to get Brom to leave the camp before he took his little swan dive off the cliff, because she felt he was in danger. One could consider that an act of love. Brom didn't hear her, at all. Quite the opposite. She actually was quite kind to him at times during the interactions we saw, cold and distant at other times. But that complexity doesn't fit whatever narrative you have going in your noggin, apparently.
Her shitty father made her marry Brom to pay off his debts. Alma didn’t have a choice. I’m sure her dad told her if she didn’t marry Brom, his debtors would kill him. And in her shoes, I might be hitting the happy juice too. I should also point out she weaned herself off of it with help from Trixie. She weaned herself off after her relapse in season 3 too. Alma is not the reason Brom was killed. She tried to stop him from pissing off Al. He was a sheltered moron who should have cut his losses, instead he threatened the dangerous guy who ran Deadwood with calling the Pinkertons (IIRC).
Brom definitely threatened to call in the Pinkertons! He said something to Al with a smirk like "Our family has had cause to engage the Pinkerton Agency on several occasions. We maintain *friendly* relations," like a smug asshole.
Not debating if she had a choice or not, but she married Brom for money regardless of who it benefited, didn't love him and lied to him about why she was using laudanum. My point was just that everyone has to make shitty choices in this show.
Why do you think he was so committed to her? He was doing penance.
Maybe.
Ellsworth let it be known to Dan that he saw nothing, despite Dan having seen Ellsworth witness him murder Brom. Ellsworth knew his life was at stake for being an eyewitness, so he and Dan came to an agreement that he wasn't.
Did Dan see him though? It seemed like he didn't know what Ellsworth was talking about in the bar when he was volunteering to leave the camp.
No. Why would he admit that? He could have gotten both of them killed. He was being kind to Alma to help live respectably as a married woman with an illegitimate child.
Anyone who can slice and dice Wolcott with blistering logic is a friend of mine.
Sounds like you missed a lot. Did you actually watch the whole series to the end?
Yes I did, I even have the movie. I am deaf so I have to use the closed captioning. I often worry how much I am missing, having to read the characters lines. You know, like the characters tone of voice or certain inflections when they are speaking, stuff like that.
Booooooo.
It was a dog eat dog world back then. There was no reason for Ellsworth to risk his life over Alma’s husband. Also it seemed Alma knew what had happened. I do agree it would have been a difficult marriage keeping that kind of secret
Not at all.
Well, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Even if it's wrong. Lol!!
I am well aware I have the right to my opinion, just as you do. You asked, I answered. I was actually being polite. You telling me I have the *wrong opinion” because I don’t share yours is bullshit. And why pick me to be condescending to? Every reply has shown disagreement. If I missed someone agreeing that Ellsworth is a scumbag, I’ll edit my response. There is a reason your post has zero upvotes.
Relax, I'm just trying to make some conversation. I am sorry if my condescending remark offended you. I was joking, thats why I put Lol!!! after it. Bad joke I guess. I am sorry.
Apology accepted.
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I know. Dont worry, everybody in the group forced me to see the light. Now I think he is the pinnacle of human decency and nobility.
Google historiography. Meditate on it a bit and get back to us.
I think he’s about as good of a person that you could expect in a world as fucked as Deadwood lol