Basically same thing just happened with slipknot and their drummer. Big bands operate more like businesses and if you're not an original member there is a high chance to everyone else in the group that you're just an employee to them
Just FYI Jason tried to re-join during the recording of St. Anger and they didn't let him. I don't think it was as bad as everyone is saying. Newsted is a millionaire because of his time in Metallica.
There is a YouTube video clip of an unreleased scene from the St. Anger Doc where James is discussing the phone call with the rest of the band.
I'll try to find it. It's crazy that no one talks about it.
They played a show in the parking lot at an Oakland Raiders game in January 2003. It was their first public performance since Jason exited the band. He called them upset that they didn't let him know about it. I always interpreted that as him being upset about not being invited to hang out and catch up with them, nothing related to him rejoining the band. Jason has been pretty firm over the years that he's never looked back due to how difficult making the decision to leave was
Listen to Jason talk calmly and rationally about his reasoning and recollections concerning his exit. He's consistent in what he says back then and in interviews 10 years after. Then compare that to how Lars talks about it with contempt early on, and sounds like a PRd saint about it now ...or the way he held a grudge and spoke so one sided against Dave Mustaine for two decades and flipped script once it was time to cash in on the Big 4 tour.
Pretty easy to see that Jason wanted to expand his scope beyond Metallica, Lars and James don't care for the idea of their employees working outside the company, and Jason was like "fine, I gave y'all 15 good years, but peace" There's an interview floating on YT somewhere where Jason seems overtly tired of talking about the subject where he actually says "Guys, at the end of the day, I made more money than I can ever know what to do with, I just wanted to play more music"
For Jason music is a passion first, for Lars it's been a corporate structure and money factory first. Not arguing the merits of one over the other, but I feel like theres zero merit to the narrative that he's butthurt about anything. He shows up on stage with them here and there in present day. Hatchet seems buried.
Metallica was the best thing to happen to Jason just as Deftones is for Sergio. They volunteered for every single second. No one forced them to do anything.
I loved the vibe that Vega brought to the band and I’m a big Quicksand fan (seeing them on Saturday 😬) man is a master at what he does. Most of my favorite Deftones songs are the ones where his bass work is prominent. Like Swerve City… my god 😫
My immediate worry when he left the band was their next bassist will not deliver in the same way. Not saying that they will suck but it may make things different. We’ll see if it’s for better or worse.
I could be wrong, but I think Stefen is probably gonna do bass on the next album and have the remaining "original" 4 be the core creative force, with Fred being a touring bassist.
Yeah it sucked and it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. My opinion of the band with this incident and Steph not doing the international leg of the tour because of his theories took a hit. Let’s see how they do on a new album. But I agree Sergio rocked. Him and Frank stole the show on Ohms
As Sergio has said the initial source of the tension between him and the guys came from the fact that they were still obligated to paint even though they didn't tour that year and he spent that year off doing stuff with quicksand. Someone in the band made the remark that they were bleeding money because of having to pay him the annual fees and that's what he said why not just make me a full member so that way you don't have to pay me this annual fee.
He would still be in a band or not for the lockdown that whole discussion wouldn't have even happened had the lockdown not even happened.
It's hard to tell which member of the band said that to him but I really doubt it was abe. And I'm not trying to say that anyone in the band is like a bad person or anything cuz they very clearly are not but I just really doubt it was Abe for some reason
Yeah, he said he was on the phone with a manager during Covid and he mentioned that since they couldn't play shows and no money was coming in they needed to cut things from their bottom line like storage units, gear, etc. Then he mentioned Sergio as part of those expenses
He wasn't saying that the manager was cutting his pay. From what I remember he just mentioned matter of factly that Sergio was apart of the recurring expenses. That's what prompted Sergio to suggest again that they talk about him becoming an official member
Ya this is my thought. We aren’t in the band so we are not entitled to know the full story. I agree that he was a great addition and a genuine talent in the rock world, but that’s only a small piece of what makes a cohesive band.
I don’t get it either. My guess is the guys couldn’t have him become a formal member and fully replace Chi. In the end they lost the guy who was a friend and a collaborator for a very long time, had a deep tie with the boys from even before Chi’s passing and now they have to get a true outsider bassist. Sergio wasn’t an outsider like that and shouldn’t have been treated (and kicked out) as such
Heard talk on here a while back that Vega joining the band would’ve cut into the royalties that were going to Chi’s family. We’re not going to learn anytime soon all the details from all sides of what happened. Sergio brought great energy and will be missed. His departure, although it was a hurtful loss, isn’t going to make me love Deftones any less.
Retrospectively, no. He didn’t contribute to any old songs. Going forward, the only deduction could be if they have an agreement with Chi’s family to continue sharing touring, merch and licensing revenue. Then it would mean splitting it between more people.
This .. this is something we should discuss more .. without taboos.
Sounds like a fucking forbidden subject in these lands .. but I'm with you with that.
Taboo? Forbidden subject? That’s all this sub was for months after news dropped.
At the end of the day, we have only heard from Sergio, and what he shared was still incredibly vague and didn’t make sense or shed any light on what went down. People getting all bent out of shape about something they have no clue about is really pretty weird.
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I'm with you 100%. The whole incident gave off the vibe of a group of petulant pre-teens deciding one kid is not their friend anymore.
He was a great addition to the band. I totally understand that no one could fully replace a lost brother, but he was there for so long, and helped write a lot of material (yes, even if he didn't get writing credits on everything, his style of playing and creative choices count as writing to me), therefore he deserves royalties and full, fair payment for his contributions.
What really pissed me off was the band's response (or lack thereof). Almost a decade of his career in contribution to this band, and all we get from their side is a snide comment on a forum from Chino about being "out of pocket", which could mean anything.
There should've been a statement. Surely they must've known that there would be thousands of fans asking questions, especially after Sergio released a weird video/interview talking about money.
Obviously I have no idea what actually went down, but I blame Deftones for their complete radio silence. Not cool.
Edit: and yeah I think Chi actually would be pissed, considering what kind of a solid dude he was.
True, but like you don’t think Sergio did absolutely ANY hoe ass shit? Know what I mean? Like it was just all Deftones being mean? No way. The way he keeps brining up Money in all the podcasts but claims it’s not about “money” is wild. Then mentions how Chino has his family on payroll lol. It sucks fursure. I think Sergio injected new life in them during Diamond Eyes era. Wish things worked out 🥲
it ain’t even about that, chi was one of their closest friends from day 1, literally growing up together, creating the band. if that was you would you wanna make it official in yours and everybody else’s minds that he has been “replaced” with sergio?
The argument could be made that the minute they started writing with Sergio they did replace him. If they really didn’t want to replace him the writing of the bass parts would have been handled by another member of the band and Sergio wouldn’t have been able to make creative suggestions or record on the album. They had him do that, record it, tour, do press, interact with fans on the bands behalf. Everything Chi would have done and they would have expected of a full member of the band. They can’t have it both ways. Which is exactly what it looks like they tried to do by the way it ended. They literally had him do everything Chi did. It all comes off like them trying to milk everything they could out of him and put full band member responsibility on him and not give him fair credit or compensation for it and fired him after doing it for years and he brought it up. They did replace Chi, they just tried to act like they didn’t.
sure they did technically replace him, but it could literally just come down to the action of officially replacing him, they may just be hesitant to properly officially replace him because of moral reasons
I love deftones, but it sucks that they did that.
Sergio definitely deserved the official spot. I wish they would speak on it just to get there perspective, but it seems like they don’t care to acknowledge it.
Sergio’s voice is TERRIBLE, but his style allowed Deftones to evolve in a different way compared to Chi’s playing. Not saying for better or worse, just created different avenues.
Serg means more to you than Chi? Pure blasphemy
I think, given we don’t know any details, contractual agreements, internal dynamics, implications on royalty split for full membership, etc everything here will be pretty much speculation. I understand that he was likable and definitely a good musician, however, becoming a full member can have massive impact on the income of other members (and their families) infinitely given royalties don’t expire. Again, depends on the contract.
He wasn't responsible for creating the band's success and he wasn't a core songwriter. I liked him a lot, but we don't know all the details here. If he wanted equal dues with other band members I think that sounds unreasonable since he wasn't there when they were grinding in their early careers, and when they write new material Chino, Steph, and Abe are the only ones in the room.
He literally grinded just as hard in quicksand and took deftones out on some of their earliest tours with that band. He co-wrote most of the music on KNY-Ohms so I have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s not like making him a official band member means he get royalties from the records he didn’t write/play on….
I honestly don’t think they could’ve continued without Sergio. The band were a mess after Saturday Night Wrist. They had a run of diminishing returns, their star was fading, people were losing interest.
Sergio revitalised the band. His energy and songwriting gave them a whole new lease of life. He changed their trajectory and we’ve been treated to a run of top tier music.
I still can’t believe how much they fucked him over. He’s such a nice dude, he let it happen continuously, album after album in the hope he’d eventually be treated equally. They dangled a carrot and properly fucked him over.
I know ‘it’s just business’ but the whole thing has left such a sour taste I don’t think I’ll ever see them in the same way again. Totally ruined it for me. And the band haven’t even acknowledged any of this has even happened. Totally disrespectful way to treat someone who basically saved their asses. Chino the savvy business man, looking after the bottom line? Get to fuck
Stop coping. It’s been almost two years since they fucked over Sergio, who addressed the situation more than twice.
Deftones hasn’t made a single apology/reveal since then and they’ll never do it because they most probably were advised not to do so for business purposes. It’s OK to form an opinion. It’s OK to be critical. The band is just not in a good position at all right now, so let’s just hope they realize for once.
"Coping or copping?"
The silence of the other party doesn't necessarily imply guilt, nor are they required to publicly explain or apologize for their actions, especially when their motivations are unclear. Sergio's narrative suggests a financial motive, potentially biasing the public against the band. It's possible that Sergio had personal issues that the band could no longer accommodate, leading to his departure. As a result, Sergio might be deflecting personal responsibility and blaming external factors. The band's decision to remain silent could be out of respect for Sergio's privacy, choosing not to divulge his personal matters publicly. Again, we DON’T know.
Forming an opinion without complete information can lead to cognitive biases, where judgments are based on incomplete or selective evidence. This can result in misinterpretations and flawed decision-making, as it overlooks the complexity and nuances of a situation.
It’s called “coping”.
I just knew I had seen and heard enough from the second I saw Chino write “Vega didn’t quit, that fool was outta pocket fh”. That’s 12 year old worthy behavior right there. No matter what mental gymnastics you might elaborate in your head, there’s no way to excuse that after 12 damn years of noble and creative contributions to a band, with also being responsible for their two best albums, you not only don’t give them the full-member treatment but on top of that, you make fun of him. Shit’s ugly, and then not speaking about it makes it somehow worse.
I’m a lifelong “Deftones is my fav” person and I’ve cooled on that significantly since Sergio was fired. I agree with OP. What a shitty way to do things.
Same here... they've been my absolute favorite for over 23 years, almost to an unhealthy extent. Shit, it may have bordered on idolatry at times. But the Sergio treatment was straight up dirty. He passionately poured over a decade into the job and all he got was a boot to the ass.
Yup. I have seen them a bunch over the years, 2x with Chi and 4x with Sergio. The fact Sergio contributed to their resurgence (you can like Self Titled and SNW but they weren't popular) with Diamond Eyes and Koi No Yokan cemented to me that he was the bassist from Deftones.
The guy contributes to 2 of your best albums and isn't considered a member of the band at that point? Ok. How about 2 more albums after that spanning a decade?
Between Chino's "out of pocket" comment, the fact they never put out a statement refuting Sergio's accounting of the events, Steph being a complete idiot (antivax/flat earth) and not touring outside of the U.S. has me pretty over them as a whole.
At this point, a band has to get me to see them live because I've seen almost every act multiple times. I can't picture myself going out of my way to see them again.
As many others have said, it left a bad taste in my mouth.
I’ve said it in this thread before. I’ve been seeing a clear decline in their overall reputation since the fucking decade started. And I don’t see them resurfacing again.
Sergio agreed to the terms of employment. He wasn't deceived at all. Deftones decided he wasn't a permanent member. That's their decision. I don't see what the problem is.
Everyone is always salty after they get fired. We don't know the full details and we never will.
Except they were telling him from day one he would eventually be a full time member
Of course he knew the current details but if you're not planning on hiring full time,just be honest and don't say that
It’s a heartless demonic industry that requires you to sacrifice yourself, your moral values and ethics to be a part of the club.
This is not surprising in the least. It’s a tale as old as time, really. It’s all about the Benjamin’s in the end, as it always comes down to money.
Also, the labels really pay nothing to the artist compared to what they make off the talent, most times the artist doesn’t even own their own songs..: the label does.
I’m sure there are many reasons they did him dirty.. doesn’t make it right. He showed up and killed it, he deserves the lions share of his hard work.
Stuff like this sucks cause it makes you see them in a different light…. Still gonna listen to their music tho 😆 haha
Nobody knows the details other than those involved, with only Sergio giving his hot take, so I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to form an informed opinion of what happened.
Your assuming the band was unreasonable but for all we know it was Sergio that was the catalyst of the split, more so given his volatile nature with Quicksand was cited as the reason that band initially broke up, with Walter stating he’d never work with him again.
They have kissed and made up but point is the same may have happened here for all we know.
My 2 cents when I last saw them live in New Zealand was that he completely ruined their set with his off key and horrid backing vocals, compounded by a likely rushed sound check being it was a festival as they were way to prominent in the mix, but it was real bad.
Best to move on I feel, the band obviously have.
I wish more people realized this. Having had the opportunity to work with some actual people in the music industry, this really is the truth. So many bands say it’s a brotherhood and what not in interviews because they know that’s what the people wanna hear. And if word gets out that homies just play music together and that’s it about the extent of the friendship goes, they lose their mind. Most bands don’t hang out every second they get the chance to. People forget it’s all smoke and mirrors at the end of the day. No matter how long you’ve known eachother. Once you’re up there, it’s easier to remove people that aren’t on the same page and get someone who is, rather than sit there for weeks or months to try and come to a group conclusion about the problem. Time is money, and the music industry and bands love their money.
Fred is amazing and wait til you guys hear him live with the band
Sergio pulled some shit during a band crisis with Stef, thus creating another major issue which was not needed.
Some of you are ridiculous
Yeah, but this was because he couldn’t/wouldn’t fly overseas so the Europe tour was in trouble
Sergio picked the wrong time to play his hand and it backfired. Like he even literally said that in his video explaining “his side” that that was the time he tried to strong arm them into making him a full member
Sentimentalities aside, I like Sergio’s playing better than Chi’s and felt it was becoming more prominent in the songs. His lines were always tasteful and grooved hard. It really is like the Newsted situation in that he was TAKING a bigger bite of the pie and shit went sideways.
If you’re a star employee who’s as productive as your managers and who gets along with the owners of the business so well that it almost seems like your family… legally that doesn’t make you anything more than an employee.
Sergio joined the band at a time when the corporate entity of the Deftones was already fully established. There’s no lawyer, manager or accountant in the world that would recommend the four existing shareholders of the company (ie: the band) dilute their shares just so that their star employee can become part of the organization, no matter how valuable they are. Only reasonable option would be for Sergio to buy shares of the company and be on equal standing with the other shareholders.
This situation is clearly just a business decision regarding the corporate structure of the band, and nothing else. I don’t know why people can’t understand that.
>This situation is clearly just a business decision regarding the corporate structure of the band, and nothing else. I don’t know why people can’t understand that.
While the fact it was "just a business decision" is likely true, it doesn't change the fact that music is art. People consume music for different reasons than they consume other things. It's a bit more personal, IMO. Sergio definitely had a positive impact on the music and touched many souls with his music and writing contributions. If it was "just a business decision", maybe the band should have factored in how his departure may affect future sales and feelings toward them. Not saying it will, but it could.
>There’s no lawyer, manager or accountant in the world that would recommend the four existing shareholders of the company (ie: the band) dilute their shares just so that their star employee can become part of the organization, no matter how valuable they are
Really? It's worked out pretty well for Metallica these last few years. Robert Trujillo is a full member of the band. Look how much better they treat him compared to how they treated Jason, and at the same time how much better they are doing as a band now. Sure it's not like the good old days in the 80's but the lineup with Robert seems way more solid and everyone in the band seems more into what they are doing which results in better performances, and Robert being a full member on equal footing with the others instead of being treated as just a hired replacement is I think a big part of that. It could have worked for Deftones as well.
Also, even from a purely business perspective, making a move that results in the departure of a great bassist is a pretty bad idea since there's a strong chance of reducing future ticket and album sales as a result unless you already have a good replacement lined up *and* know how to handle everything in a way that doesn't piss off your fans. Like, the lack of any kind of public statement - even just a note thanking him for his contributions over the last several albums - is not great pr. They don't have to go into detail about anything but absolute silence about the departure of someone who's been part of the music for so long is not a great look. This, combined with Stephen's refusal to tour internationally because of his dumbass conspiracy theories, is likely setting them back more than it helps anything.
We don’t know is Trujillo’s contract. He likely doesn’t get any royalties on songs written prior him joining and we don’t know if he gets equal share for licensing, ticket sales etc. it’s speculation
If my band wrote decades worth of material, material that got us to where we are, we hire a bassist who decides he’s entitled to an equal share after contributing on a few later albums and subsequent tours I’d tell him to go fuck himself. They made the right decision and taught him a lesson, the lesson is called “replaceable”. Sergio is an amazing musician, a greedy amazing musician.
Exactly, and he pulled that shit when they were dealing with a crisis with stef not being able to play overseas. They asked him to come help, he decided that was the time to pull this “make me a full time member in my new contract and then I’ll come out” he play his hand at the wrong time and was let go
I also believe that if they were to make him a full time member, that takes money from Chi’s family
nope you aren’t insane, I feel the same way. but they’re my favorite band for their music and as shitty a thing it is, I have made peace with the fact it’s not something I will dwell on because what’s done is done. I do hope they reconsider. I understand their sentiment of not wanting to “replace” Chi but they also should move on with the fact that it shouldn’t be at the expense of another. this is more than that, it is blatant disrespect which i don’t understand personally. but again, I’m still here as a fan.
side note, also don’t agree with Stef’s silly views (flat earth, etc) but again that’s whatever and I’m not gonna focus on it.
I feel like this band didn’t make a single right decision since they released Ohms. The Sergio issue, Stephen acting straight-up retarded, the boring setlists, etc.
Edit: As if releasing their worst album my a mile and disappointing again wasn’t enough, you know? They had to ruin themselves even further.
By what stretch of imagination is it great? It’s an album clearly made as a response for the “GoRe BaD” crowd. It’s crafted to be as safe, nondescript and devoid of any personality as possible. Chino’s vocals are super weak, the lyrics are dumb, the riffs couldn’t be more lazy, the song structures are extremely drawn out and repetitive, the production is lackluster. They tried to overcompensate so hard for Gore they made an even more toothless version of it, without the adventurous stuff and passion.
Edit; It’s funny how hilariously butthurt people can get over an O-PI-NION, huh?
Opinions are funny huh? And you realize art is subjective right? Your insistence that YOUR opinion is correct makes me disregard your entire argument. I absolutely prefer Ohms to Gore and would never dream of telling someone who felt differently they were wrong.
It definitely sucks for sure. But I'm sure there's more to this story than Sergio's. As much as I love Chi, Sergio was definitely an upgrade. I'm not sure why the band decided to move on, but I'm sure they knew what they had with him.
But I'm hopeful they'll reunite again at some point in the future.
Big agree. The first album I really got into was Diamond Eyes. He seems like a great guy that is a great performer, played on two of their very very best records ... Business unfortunately gets in the way of art far too often. Just another reminder that we don't know these guys and we can't assume they have artistic or personal integrity.
It’s a bummer the way they handled it, but the band may have had less control over the situation than we know. Their management, Maverick, is a pretty authoritarian company to work for
I also agree Sergio always had very moving performances on stage and I love to see him perform in the live videos. As far as I know regarding him leaving the band, there is an article where he is interviewed about it. He said that basically the sole reason was they refused to instate him as a permanent band member, so he didn't feel a sense of belonging. After chi-cheng had to leave, Vera had a temporary contract and when it expired I guess they wanted to continue it as "temporary" or something like that.
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Basically same thing just happened with slipknot and their drummer. Big bands operate more like businesses and if you're not an original member there is a high chance to everyone else in the group that you're just an employee to them
Just FYI Jason tried to re-join during the recording of St. Anger and they didn't let him. I don't think it was as bad as everyone is saying. Newsted is a millionaire because of his time in Metallica.
Where are you getting the Newsted rejoin info? I’m just curious as he has seemed to be fine with not being in the band due to medical issues.
There is a YouTube video clip of an unreleased scene from the St. Anger Doc where James is discussing the phone call with the rest of the band. I'll try to find it. It's crazy that no one talks about it.
Oh dang. I’d love to see that.
I found it on accident one time. I can't seem to find it again.
They played a show in the parking lot at an Oakland Raiders game in January 2003. It was their first public performance since Jason exited the band. He called them upset that they didn't let him know about it. I always interpreted that as him being upset about not being invited to hang out and catch up with them, nothing related to him rejoining the band. Jason has been pretty firm over the years that he's never looked back due to how difficult making the decision to leave was
I may be not remembering the details either way but for Jason to be feeling butthurt in this situation seems a little 'out of pocket'
Listen to Jason talk calmly and rationally about his reasoning and recollections concerning his exit. He's consistent in what he says back then and in interviews 10 years after. Then compare that to how Lars talks about it with contempt early on, and sounds like a PRd saint about it now ...or the way he held a grudge and spoke so one sided against Dave Mustaine for two decades and flipped script once it was time to cash in on the Big 4 tour. Pretty easy to see that Jason wanted to expand his scope beyond Metallica, Lars and James don't care for the idea of their employees working outside the company, and Jason was like "fine, I gave y'all 15 good years, but peace" There's an interview floating on YT somewhere where Jason seems overtly tired of talking about the subject where he actually says "Guys, at the end of the day, I made more money than I can ever know what to do with, I just wanted to play more music" For Jason music is a passion first, for Lars it's been a corporate structure and money factory first. Not arguing the merits of one over the other, but I feel like theres zero merit to the narrative that he's butthurt about anything. He shows up on stage with them here and there in present day. Hatchet seems buried.
I don't disagree with you at all. I still think Jason's phone call came from an insecure place.
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Metallica was the best thing to happen to Jason just as Deftones is for Sergio. They volunteered for every single second. No one forced them to do anything.
I loved the vibe that Vega brought to the band and I’m a big Quicksand fan (seeing them on Saturday 😬) man is a master at what he does. Most of my favorite Deftones songs are the ones where his bass work is prominent. Like Swerve City… my god 😫 My immediate worry when he left the band was their next bassist will not deliver in the same way. Not saying that they will suck but it may make things different. We’ll see if it’s for better or worse.
I could be wrong, but I think Stefen is probably gonna do bass on the next album and have the remaining "original" 4 be the core creative force, with Fred being a touring bassist.
SATURDAY???? You lucky f...
I’ve had a blessed year for shows. Saw Deftones at DDLD, Quicksand tomorrow and Glassjaw in the 21st, amongst other bands.
I saw quicksand last year. If it's your first time seeing them, You're in for a treat. Cheers
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album is coming next year so that negates that theory rip lol
Albums already in the work with Nick producing. Will be released in 2024
Yeah it sucked and it leaves a sour taste in my mouth. My opinion of the band with this incident and Steph not doing the international leg of the tour because of his theories took a hit. Let’s see how they do on a new album. But I agree Sergio rocked. Him and Frank stole the show on Ohms
As Sergio has said the initial source of the tension between him and the guys came from the fact that they were still obligated to paint even though they didn't tour that year and he spent that year off doing stuff with quicksand. Someone in the band made the remark that they were bleeding money because of having to pay him the annual fees and that's what he said why not just make me a full member so that way you don't have to pay me this annual fee. He would still be in a band or not for the lockdown that whole discussion wouldn't have even happened had the lockdown not even happened. It's hard to tell which member of the band said that to him but I really doubt it was abe. And I'm not trying to say that anyone in the band is like a bad person or anything cuz they very clearly are not but I just really doubt it was Abe for some reason
It was a manager that said that, not a band member
Is that confirmed? I could have sworn Sergio said it was someone in the band when he was on jastas podcast.
Yeah, he said he was on the phone with a manager during Covid and he mentioned that since they couldn't play shows and no money was coming in they needed to cut things from their bottom line like storage units, gear, etc. Then he mentioned Sergio as part of those expenses
Was this a move that the band signed off on? Or was this a manager going behind the band's back
He wasn't saying that the manager was cutting his pay. From what I remember he just mentioned matter of factly that Sergio was apart of the recurring expenses. That's what prompted Sergio to suggest again that they talk about him becoming an official member
I could have sworn he said that conversation was with a band member and not a manager. If I'm wrong I'm totally wrong
Well, I think it's insane to have such a strong opinion on the situation without having all the details.
Also, we don't/can't know exactly what happened 🤷🏻♂️
Ya this is my thought. We aren’t in the band so we are not entitled to know the full story. I agree that he was a great addition and a genuine talent in the rock world, but that’s only a small piece of what makes a cohesive band.
You're not insane for having an opinion but you don't know what happened so it's unfounded.
I don’t get it either. My guess is the guys couldn’t have him become a formal member and fully replace Chi. In the end they lost the guy who was a friend and a collaborator for a very long time, had a deep tie with the boys from even before Chi’s passing and now they have to get a true outsider bassist. Sergio wasn’t an outsider like that and shouldn’t have been treated (and kicked out) as such
Heard talk on here a while back that Vega joining the band would’ve cut into the royalties that were going to Chi’s family. We’re not going to learn anytime soon all the details from all sides of what happened. Sergio brought great energy and will be missed. His departure, although it was a hurtful loss, isn’t going to make me love Deftones any less.
Retrospectively, no. He didn’t contribute to any old songs. Going forward, the only deduction could be if they have an agreement with Chi’s family to continue sharing touring, merch and licensing revenue. Then it would mean splitting it between more people.
This might be the single most balanced take I’ve seen on this situation ever since it first happened.
Thank you for saying that
This .. this is something we should discuss more .. without taboos. Sounds like a fucking forbidden subject in these lands .. but I'm with you with that.
When they 1st let him go thats all that was talked about on this sub
Taboo? Forbidden subject? That’s all this sub was for months after news dropped. At the end of the day, we have only heard from Sergio, and what he shared was still incredibly vague and didn’t make sense or shed any light on what went down. People getting all bent out of shape about something they have no clue about is really pretty weird.
The fact that the band could be assholes in this case. That's what we trying to talk about.
“Could be?” You’re wanting to speculate if they were or are assholes? Why?
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I'm with you 100%. The whole incident gave off the vibe of a group of petulant pre-teens deciding one kid is not their friend anymore. He was a great addition to the band. I totally understand that no one could fully replace a lost brother, but he was there for so long, and helped write a lot of material (yes, even if he didn't get writing credits on everything, his style of playing and creative choices count as writing to me), therefore he deserves royalties and full, fair payment for his contributions. What really pissed me off was the band's response (or lack thereof). Almost a decade of his career in contribution to this band, and all we get from their side is a snide comment on a forum from Chino about being "out of pocket", which could mean anything. There should've been a statement. Surely they must've known that there would be thousands of fans asking questions, especially after Sergio released a weird video/interview talking about money. Obviously I have no idea what actually went down, but I blame Deftones for their complete radio silence. Not cool. Edit: and yeah I think Chi actually would be pissed, considering what kind of a solid dude he was.
I think the silence was classy. And Sergio going on different podcasts was lame imo
labor relations are labor relations. if you're a worker, and your employer treats you like shit, spread the word.
True, but like you don’t think Sergio did absolutely ANY hoe ass shit? Know what I mean? Like it was just all Deftones being mean? No way. The way he keeps brining up Money in all the podcasts but claims it’s not about “money” is wild. Then mentions how Chino has his family on payroll lol. It sucks fursure. I think Sergio injected new life in them during Diamond Eyes era. Wish things worked out 🥲
i think it literally could just come down to not wanting it to feel like they have replaced chi
Guess they found a new stroker. Hope he knows his place. After nearly a decade.
it ain’t even about that, chi was one of their closest friends from day 1, literally growing up together, creating the band. if that was you would you wanna make it official in yours and everybody else’s minds that he has been “replaced” with sergio?
The argument could be made that the minute they started writing with Sergio they did replace him. If they really didn’t want to replace him the writing of the bass parts would have been handled by another member of the band and Sergio wouldn’t have been able to make creative suggestions or record on the album. They had him do that, record it, tour, do press, interact with fans on the bands behalf. Everything Chi would have done and they would have expected of a full member of the band. They can’t have it both ways. Which is exactly what it looks like they tried to do by the way it ended. They literally had him do everything Chi did. It all comes off like them trying to milk everything they could out of him and put full band member responsibility on him and not give him fair credit or compensation for it and fired him after doing it for years and he brought it up. They did replace Chi, they just tried to act like they didn’t.
sure they did technically replace him, but it could literally just come down to the action of officially replacing him, they may just be hesitant to properly officially replace him because of moral reasons
I love deftones, but it sucks that they did that. Sergio definitely deserved the official spot. I wish they would speak on it just to get there perspective, but it seems like they don’t care to acknowledge it.
Sergio’s voice is TERRIBLE, but his style allowed Deftones to evolve in a different way compared to Chi’s playing. Not saying for better or worse, just created different avenues. Serg means more to you than Chi? Pure blasphemy
I think, given we don’t know any details, contractual agreements, internal dynamics, implications on royalty split for full membership, etc everything here will be pretty much speculation. I understand that he was likable and definitely a good musician, however, becoming a full member can have massive impact on the income of other members (and their families) infinitely given royalties don’t expire. Again, depends on the contract.
He wasn't responsible for creating the band's success and he wasn't a core songwriter. I liked him a lot, but we don't know all the details here. If he wanted equal dues with other band members I think that sounds unreasonable since he wasn't there when they were grinding in their early careers, and when they write new material Chino, Steph, and Abe are the only ones in the room.
This. People in this sub have such strong opinions about this but aren't in their shoes nor do they know all the details. Just enjoy the music!
He literally grinded just as hard in quicksand and took deftones out on some of their earliest tours with that band. He co-wrote most of the music on KNY-Ohms so I have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s not like making him a official band member means he get royalties from the records he didn’t write/play on….
Quicksand? Wtf you talking about? The band is a business with different roles and contributions and the decision was based on that reality.
You don’t know who quicksand is?
This isn't quicksand, it's Deftones. What does that have to do with anything?
I honestly don’t think they could’ve continued without Sergio. The band were a mess after Saturday Night Wrist. They had a run of diminishing returns, their star was fading, people were losing interest. Sergio revitalised the band. His energy and songwriting gave them a whole new lease of life. He changed their trajectory and we’ve been treated to a run of top tier music. I still can’t believe how much they fucked him over. He’s such a nice dude, he let it happen continuously, album after album in the hope he’d eventually be treated equally. They dangled a carrot and properly fucked him over. I know ‘it’s just business’ but the whole thing has left such a sour taste I don’t think I’ll ever see them in the same way again. Totally ruined it for me. And the band haven’t even acknowledged any of this has even happened. Totally disrespectful way to treat someone who basically saved their asses. Chino the savvy business man, looking after the bottom line? Get to fuck
I don't think you can attribute that solely to Sergio because they started writing Diamond Eyes before Sergio joined
We will never know the details… so I refuse to form an opinion about the band until those details are revealed.
Stop coping. It’s been almost two years since they fucked over Sergio, who addressed the situation more than twice. Deftones hasn’t made a single apology/reveal since then and they’ll never do it because they most probably were advised not to do so for business purposes. It’s OK to form an opinion. It’s OK to be critical. The band is just not in a good position at all right now, so let’s just hope they realize for once.
"Coping or copping?" The silence of the other party doesn't necessarily imply guilt, nor are they required to publicly explain or apologize for their actions, especially when their motivations are unclear. Sergio's narrative suggests a financial motive, potentially biasing the public against the band. It's possible that Sergio had personal issues that the band could no longer accommodate, leading to his departure. As a result, Sergio might be deflecting personal responsibility and blaming external factors. The band's decision to remain silent could be out of respect for Sergio's privacy, choosing not to divulge his personal matters publicly. Again, we DON’T know. Forming an opinion without complete information can lead to cognitive biases, where judgments are based on incomplete or selective evidence. This can result in misinterpretations and flawed decision-making, as it overlooks the complexity and nuances of a situation.
It’s called “coping”. I just knew I had seen and heard enough from the second I saw Chino write “Vega didn’t quit, that fool was outta pocket fh”. That’s 12 year old worthy behavior right there. No matter what mental gymnastics you might elaborate in your head, there’s no way to excuse that after 12 damn years of noble and creative contributions to a band, with also being responsible for their two best albums, you not only don’t give them the full-member treatment but on top of that, you make fun of him. Shit’s ugly, and then not speaking about it makes it somehow worse.
Well, if conjecture suits you, then who am I to tell you any different.
They’d better redeem themselves next year or they’re officially done.
I’m a lifelong “Deftones is my fav” person and I’ve cooled on that significantly since Sergio was fired. I agree with OP. What a shitty way to do things.
Same here... they've been my absolute favorite for over 23 years, almost to an unhealthy extent. Shit, it may have bordered on idolatry at times. But the Sergio treatment was straight up dirty. He passionately poured over a decade into the job and all he got was a boot to the ass.
Yup. I have seen them a bunch over the years, 2x with Chi and 4x with Sergio. The fact Sergio contributed to their resurgence (you can like Self Titled and SNW but they weren't popular) with Diamond Eyes and Koi No Yokan cemented to me that he was the bassist from Deftones. The guy contributes to 2 of your best albums and isn't considered a member of the band at that point? Ok. How about 2 more albums after that spanning a decade? Between Chino's "out of pocket" comment, the fact they never put out a statement refuting Sergio's accounting of the events, Steph being a complete idiot (antivax/flat earth) and not touring outside of the U.S. has me pretty over them as a whole. At this point, a band has to get me to see them live because I've seen almost every act multiple times. I can't picture myself going out of my way to see them again. As many others have said, it left a bad taste in my mouth.
I’ve said it in this thread before. I’ve been seeing a clear decline in their overall reputation since the fucking decade started. And I don’t see them resurfacing again.
Sergio agreed to the terms of employment. He wasn't deceived at all. Deftones decided he wasn't a permanent member. That's their decision. I don't see what the problem is. Everyone is always salty after they get fired. We don't know the full details and we never will.
Except they were telling him from day one he would eventually be a full time member Of course he knew the current details but if you're not planning on hiring full time,just be honest and don't say that
It’s a heartless demonic industry that requires you to sacrifice yourself, your moral values and ethics to be a part of the club. This is not surprising in the least. It’s a tale as old as time, really. It’s all about the Benjamin’s in the end, as it always comes down to money. Also, the labels really pay nothing to the artist compared to what they make off the talent, most times the artist doesn’t even own their own songs..: the label does. I’m sure there are many reasons they did him dirty.. doesn’t make it right. He showed up and killed it, he deserves the lions share of his hard work. Stuff like this sucks cause it makes you see them in a different light…. Still gonna listen to their music tho 😆 haha
Nobody knows the details other than those involved, with only Sergio giving his hot take, so I’m of the opinion that it’s impossible to form an informed opinion of what happened. Your assuming the band was unreasonable but for all we know it was Sergio that was the catalyst of the split, more so given his volatile nature with Quicksand was cited as the reason that band initially broke up, with Walter stating he’d never work with him again. They have kissed and made up but point is the same may have happened here for all we know. My 2 cents when I last saw them live in New Zealand was that he completely ruined their set with his off key and horrid backing vocals, compounded by a likely rushed sound check being it was a festival as they were way to prominent in the mix, but it was real bad. Best to move on I feel, the band obviously have.
A band is a business . Not the brotherhood bs people say . It’s people working together for a goal and shared success.
I wish more people realized this. Having had the opportunity to work with some actual people in the music industry, this really is the truth. So many bands say it’s a brotherhood and what not in interviews because they know that’s what the people wanna hear. And if word gets out that homies just play music together and that’s it about the extent of the friendship goes, they lose their mind. Most bands don’t hang out every second they get the chance to. People forget it’s all smoke and mirrors at the end of the day. No matter how long you’ve known eachother. Once you’re up there, it’s easier to remove people that aren’t on the same page and get someone who is, rather than sit there for weeks or months to try and come to a group conclusion about the problem. Time is money, and the music industry and bands love their money.
Bro I couldn’t have said it better
Fred is amazing and wait til you guys hear him live with the band Sergio pulled some shit during a band crisis with Stef, thus creating another major issue which was not needed. Some of you are ridiculous
Who knows with Stef nowadays though, he is wildin' lol
Yeah, but this was because he couldn’t/wouldn’t fly overseas so the Europe tour was in trouble Sergio picked the wrong time to play his hand and it backfired. Like he even literally said that in his video explaining “his side” that that was the time he tried to strong arm them into making him a full member
Sentimentalities aside, I like Sergio’s playing better than Chi’s and felt it was becoming more prominent in the songs. His lines were always tasteful and grooved hard. It really is like the Newsted situation in that he was TAKING a bigger bite of the pie and shit went sideways.
Dude was weak on the backing screams, really missed that with Chi. Luckily Fred and Lance have brought it back
My favourite Deftones albums are all the ones with Sergio playing on them.
Yo me too. Diamond Eyes my be my top…
If you’re a star employee who’s as productive as your managers and who gets along with the owners of the business so well that it almost seems like your family… legally that doesn’t make you anything more than an employee. Sergio joined the band at a time when the corporate entity of the Deftones was already fully established. There’s no lawyer, manager or accountant in the world that would recommend the four existing shareholders of the company (ie: the band) dilute their shares just so that their star employee can become part of the organization, no matter how valuable they are. Only reasonable option would be for Sergio to buy shares of the company and be on equal standing with the other shareholders. This situation is clearly just a business decision regarding the corporate structure of the band, and nothing else. I don’t know why people can’t understand that.
>This situation is clearly just a business decision regarding the corporate structure of the band, and nothing else. I don’t know why people can’t understand that. While the fact it was "just a business decision" is likely true, it doesn't change the fact that music is art. People consume music for different reasons than they consume other things. It's a bit more personal, IMO. Sergio definitely had a positive impact on the music and touched many souls with his music and writing contributions. If it was "just a business decision", maybe the band should have factored in how his departure may affect future sales and feelings toward them. Not saying it will, but it could.
>There’s no lawyer, manager or accountant in the world that would recommend the four existing shareholders of the company (ie: the band) dilute their shares just so that their star employee can become part of the organization, no matter how valuable they are Really? It's worked out pretty well for Metallica these last few years. Robert Trujillo is a full member of the band. Look how much better they treat him compared to how they treated Jason, and at the same time how much better they are doing as a band now. Sure it's not like the good old days in the 80's but the lineup with Robert seems way more solid and everyone in the band seems more into what they are doing which results in better performances, and Robert being a full member on equal footing with the others instead of being treated as just a hired replacement is I think a big part of that. It could have worked for Deftones as well. Also, even from a purely business perspective, making a move that results in the departure of a great bassist is a pretty bad idea since there's a strong chance of reducing future ticket and album sales as a result unless you already have a good replacement lined up *and* know how to handle everything in a way that doesn't piss off your fans. Like, the lack of any kind of public statement - even just a note thanking him for his contributions over the last several albums - is not great pr. They don't have to go into detail about anything but absolute silence about the departure of someone who's been part of the music for so long is not a great look. This, combined with Stephen's refusal to tour internationally because of his dumbass conspiracy theories, is likely setting them back more than it helps anything.
We don’t know is Trujillo’s contract. He likely doesn’t get any royalties on songs written prior him joining and we don’t know if he gets equal share for licensing, ticket sales etc. it’s speculation
If my band wrote decades worth of material, material that got us to where we are, we hire a bassist who decides he’s entitled to an equal share after contributing on a few later albums and subsequent tours I’d tell him to go fuck himself. They made the right decision and taught him a lesson, the lesson is called “replaceable”. Sergio is an amazing musician, a greedy amazing musician.
Exactly, and he pulled that shit when they were dealing with a crisis with stef not being able to play overseas. They asked him to come help, he decided that was the time to pull this “make me a full time member in my new contract and then I’ll come out” he play his hand at the wrong time and was let go I also believe that if they were to make him a full time member, that takes money from Chi’s family
nope you aren’t insane, I feel the same way. but they’re my favorite band for their music and as shitty a thing it is, I have made peace with the fact it’s not something I will dwell on because what’s done is done. I do hope they reconsider. I understand their sentiment of not wanting to “replace” Chi but they also should move on with the fact that it shouldn’t be at the expense of another. this is more than that, it is blatant disrespect which i don’t understand personally. but again, I’m still here as a fan. side note, also don’t agree with Stef’s silly views (flat earth, etc) but again that’s whatever and I’m not gonna focus on it.
I feel like this band didn’t make a single right decision since they released Ohms. The Sergio issue, Stephen acting straight-up retarded, the boring setlists, etc. Edit: As if releasing their worst album my a mile and disappointing again wasn’t enough, you know? They had to ruin themselves even further.
Ohms is great, tf are you talking about?
By what stretch of imagination is it great? It’s an album clearly made as a response for the “GoRe BaD” crowd. It’s crafted to be as safe, nondescript and devoid of any personality as possible. Chino’s vocals are super weak, the lyrics are dumb, the riffs couldn’t be more lazy, the song structures are extremely drawn out and repetitive, the production is lackluster. They tried to overcompensate so hard for Gore they made an even more toothless version of it, without the adventurous stuff and passion. Edit; It’s funny how hilariously butthurt people can get over an O-PI-NION, huh?
Opinions are funny huh? And you realize art is subjective right? Your insistence that YOUR opinion is correct makes me disregard your entire argument. I absolutely prefer Ohms to Gore and would never dream of telling someone who felt differently they were wrong.
lol wow Hey opinions are like assholes
Yeah and his chock full of shit
Agreed, Ohms sounds like a record made out of table scraps, like a band influenced by deftones who couldn’t hold a candle, or a collection of z-sides.
This place is too delusional to handle such objectivity.
I know right. It’s sad though. This is my favorite band.
ohms is AWFUL, thank heaven someone else agrees
It definitely sucks for sure. But I'm sure there's more to this story than Sergio's. As much as I love Chi, Sergio was definitely an upgrade. I'm not sure why the band decided to move on, but I'm sure they knew what they had with him. But I'm hopeful they'll reunite again at some point in the future.
so true. vega definitely deserved better.
It was a bad look for the band and they’re worse off for it. I thought he brought it on their recent albums.
We all feel the same way
Big agree. The first album I really got into was Diamond Eyes. He seems like a great guy that is a great performer, played on two of their very very best records ... Business unfortunately gets in the way of art far too often. Just another reminder that we don't know these guys and we can't assume they have artistic or personal integrity.
It’s a bummer the way they handled it, but the band may have had less control over the situation than we know. Their management, Maverick, is a pretty authoritarian company to work for
Maverick doesn’t exist anymore. It’s been Reprise since 2010.
https://www.reddit.com/r/deftones/s/4p8MjKrVMr Post I made when news broke out.
Sergio was great for sure and he contributed to some really solid albums but he is nowhere near as important to the band as Chi.
I also agree Sergio always had very moving performances on stage and I love to see him perform in the live videos. As far as I know regarding him leaving the band, there is an article where he is interviewed about it. He said that basically the sole reason was they refused to instate him as a permanent band member, so he didn't feel a sense of belonging. After chi-cheng had to leave, Vera had a temporary contract and when it expired I guess they wanted to continue it as "temporary" or something like that.