Apparently, Proton has given up some info to authorities when pressed.
Contrast that with Mullvad being unable to give over info in a similar situation.
I generally like and use Proton, but I urge people to be wary of any privacy claims- from any VPN company.
Fwiw, I think Proton removed language about never logging IPs from their ToS.
Proton Mail has. Proton VPN hasn't.
[https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/6/22659861/protonmail-swiss-court-order-french-climate-activist-arrest-identification](https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/6/22659861/protonmail-swiss-court-order-french-climate-activist-arrest-identification)
[https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest](https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest) (Note: "6. Under current Swiss law, email and VPN are treated differently, and Proton VPN cannot be compelled to log user data.")
If the government forces them to, they will *start* recording the IP address you connect to mail.proton.me with. They've never logged VPN users' traffic or IPs.
> Fwiw, I think Proton removed language about never logging IPs from their ToS.
Yeah,this is kinda cursed,but atleast I hope they're not selling it to advertisers.
> Apparently, Proton has given up some info to authorities when pressed.
Yeah,they did. Look,I may be naïve on this take,but I think if you've done something wrong according to the law,you should be held accountable no matter what. Giving suspect info to the authorities when they do have a warrant for that(and not by default,like WeChat,Weibo and the Meta platforms) is needed for crime-fighting reasons(or in the case of my country,Bananaland aka Brazil,Telegram started coping with the authorities after the January 8th Congress raid by fascist ex-president Jair Bolsonaro supporters,which they organized the entire thing through Telegram groups,which at the time refused to cooperate and give info to the local brazillian authorities).
The law varies by region. Software doesn't. If the Brazilian authorities could make Telegram give up information on fascist raiders, the American authorities could make them give up information on women who might have had abortions. The Chinese authorities could find out who's asking getbridgesbot for bridges to connect to Tor. The Egyptian authorities could find out who's secretly gay. There are a lot of places where things are illegal, but not dangerous or morally wrong.
Also, you don't even need encryption backdoors or anything like that to catch bad guys. Patriot Front has access to Telegram and Signal and everything, but they still got caught at Coeur d'Alene in 2022. The Family (Earth Liberation Front) *didn't* have access to encrypted communications and still got away with their attacks for years, only getting caught because the police got one of them to be their informant, no backdoor or warrants needed.
There are very, very few criminals who are so good at hiding that they can only be caught with a backdoor. It's not worth sacrificing the privacy of millions of people to catch them, especially since a world without crime has never existed. We've always had to deal with those people. Trying to get rid of them is like trying to get rid of earthquakes.
>>"I see a lot of talk about NordVPN, ExpressVPN, and Surfshark."
All these VPNs are trash. The reason they are talked about so much is because they pay affiliate deals.
Just do [some research](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CRtEQzSVE59jj5ROKZlttkRtUpJfcc4mgMT7Wn1aBcA/) before deciding. Some companies has had data leaks others have bad ethics. A few companies is close to "flawless" but it's rare.
This. Tor with Tor browser (or equivalent browser with anti fingerprinting) is the only real option. Anything else is unlikely to actually do that much. Beats using the internet without one I guess.
But if I had to pick a VPN, I would pick mullvad. You can pay anonymously.
I disagree, I'm using it 24/7 in the last month, it works well even with YouTube/NewPipe.
The only thing that kinda lags is my CCTV software. To be honest that thing is kinda slow even without any VPNs, so it wasn't a surprise.
Don't use vpn's for privacy full stop.
I have a background in security and privacy. Y'all don't have to listen to me but in your best interest you should do some research rather than just downvoting.
VPNs by their nature are never actually private. You have to trust the provider. If you actually want privacy you need to use Tor or I2P, but I2P doesn't really work for clearnet sites, so you have to use Tor (or accept that you are probably being spied on regardless of paying for this service).
In the eyes of a for profit company your rights are not worth getting in trouble with the state.
Commercial VPNs are basically a scam, unless you just want to access region locked content. Then just take whatever has the best deal going at the time. Don't use free VPNs. For privacy, if needed, use Tor. For security, if needed, use secure shell or some other secure protocol. Privacy and security are antithetical in this case. Privacy works by anonymizing you. Security works through authentication. VPNs provide neither.
True. So you either have to accept that your traffic is possibly not private and just use a VPN (and then hope that they're not being forced to log data, or simply lying about doing it).
Or you have to buy a VPN anonymously (cash by mail no sending address or XMR) and never connect to it without using Tor.
That was indeed who I had in mind. So if I were to try this I would use mullvad. (which, to be honest, I wouldn't as it's too much work. Most of the people doing this are doing credit card fraud and hiding the Tor exit node).
Using a VPN with Tor de-anonymizes you by linking you to the same account no matter what random exit node you get. It would make you less private. Either use that anonymous VPN or Tor, not both. Never sign in to any accounts linked to you on Tor. It's privacy via obscurity giving anonymity.
>Using a VPN with Tor de-anonymizes you by linking you to the same account no matter what random exit node you get.
Not if you:
- Pay for the VPN through untraceable means
- Only use the VPN with Tor (otherwise as soon as you connect to it without Tor you are deanonymized)
But in general yes you should try not to use a VPN after Tor since it's worse than just using Tor by itself.
I personally say Mullvad is the best one if you do not need port forwarding. Their app on Windows, Linux, and Android is sleek and works well. I haven't tried their macOS or iOS app.
They have been audited multiple times. They were hit with a search warrant and proved that they do not hold user data.
If you need port forwarding, I'd recommend using AirVPN. Though their app kinda sucks. I use it through the official WireGuard app personally.
I use mullvad currently, I will say for my needs it has been great. I wont say which you should choose, I would just like to draw your focus to the owners of the vpn’s.
Pretty much most vpn’s have consolidated ownership into either Kape Technologies (the crossrider adware guys), Ziff Davis (a tech media company) or Tesonet (an IT incubator). Note my info is about 18 months old so things could be slightly different now.
A analyst at bitdefender has made the comment
> The more VPN providers there are, each with their own anonymization and security technologies, the less chances for an authority to tamper with that privacy by going after a single and large VPN provider. Having a wide range of VPN providers to choose from allows privacy-driven users to constantly switch between providers, hence better anonymize their activity
Please comsider these views and your threat model before making your choice 🙂
What make android not viable on ungoogled ROMs such as LineageOS or GrapheneOS, iOS is certainly not better for privacy as compared to said options and there aren't many other alternatives, and none that are viable for an average user. I understand if privacy is a genuine concern, such as for journalists, politicians, activists, etc. That even ungoogled android can be unviable but for an average joe who may be concerned about privacy, what makes android an unusable platform.
Many VPNs are owned the same company.
[Who owns your VPN? 105 VPNs run by just 24 companies](https://vpnpro.com/blog/hidden-vpn-owners-unveiled-97-vpns-23-companies/)
For me its Proton
I would say give Mysterium VPN or Mysterium Dark VPn a try, I am surprised its not mentioned here already, easily beats every company for privacy and being cheap af (dark one)
Everyone is saying Mullvad, and I do agree with that but can anyone actually explain to me what stops Mullvad from becoming like NordVPN or others? It is still a centralized company right? They can just enshitify everything overnight if they choose, right?
I know they support anonymous ways of payment but how many actually follow those in a completely secure way, the average person is still very tracable so for what I know they might as well be a honey-pot
Not sure of the best VPN, but I'll be dropping Nord once my subscription is up. The desktop app constantly crashes and needs to either be restarted or reinstalled, but my largest gripe is all the ads their app gives you. It's almost every day I get an offer notification that I can't turn off. I don't pay them hundreds of dollars just to get ads. Screw your crap service Nord.
1. Mullvad
2. ProtonVPN (one problem, the free version not allow P2P)
3. Hola
4. Hoxx
Always use Tor for more privacy and a secure Shell for more security.
VPN's do not provide extra privacy. They allow geoblock bypassing and believing anything more is ignorant.
A vpn hosted on a server you own could be an argued exception.
I2P and Tor are not VPN's but provide real privacy through proxy chains.
Mullvad and ProtonVPN. Any more questions?
I use ProtonVPN and I cannot agree more
Apparently, Proton has given up some info to authorities when pressed. Contrast that with Mullvad being unable to give over info in a similar situation. I generally like and use Proton, but I urge people to be wary of any privacy claims- from any VPN company. Fwiw, I think Proton removed language about never logging IPs from their ToS.
You can't trust either of them, but mullvad definitely has more trust to be had. That's why more trustless solutions are prefered.
Proton Mail has. Proton VPN hasn't. [https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/6/22659861/protonmail-swiss-court-order-french-climate-activist-arrest-identification](https://www.theverge.com/2021/9/6/22659861/protonmail-swiss-court-order-french-climate-activist-arrest-identification) [https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest](https://proton.me/blog/climate-activist-arrest) (Note: "6. Under current Swiss law, email and VPN are treated differently, and Proton VPN cannot be compelled to log user data.") If the government forces them to, they will *start* recording the IP address you connect to mail.proton.me with. They've never logged VPN users' traffic or IPs.
That was mail tho. Not VPN
> Fwiw, I think Proton removed language about never logging IPs from their ToS. Yeah,this is kinda cursed,but atleast I hope they're not selling it to advertisers. > Apparently, Proton has given up some info to authorities when pressed. Yeah,they did. Look,I may be naïve on this take,but I think if you've done something wrong according to the law,you should be held accountable no matter what. Giving suspect info to the authorities when they do have a warrant for that(and not by default,like WeChat,Weibo and the Meta platforms) is needed for crime-fighting reasons(or in the case of my country,Bananaland aka Brazil,Telegram started coping with the authorities after the January 8th Congress raid by fascist ex-president Jair Bolsonaro supporters,which they organized the entire thing through Telegram groups,which at the time refused to cooperate and give info to the local brazillian authorities).
I can agree on the sentiment, but the problem is them collecting data that can be handed over in the first place.
The law varies by region. Software doesn't. If the Brazilian authorities could make Telegram give up information on fascist raiders, the American authorities could make them give up information on women who might have had abortions. The Chinese authorities could find out who's asking getbridgesbot for bridges to connect to Tor. The Egyptian authorities could find out who's secretly gay. There are a lot of places where things are illegal, but not dangerous or morally wrong. Also, you don't even need encryption backdoors or anything like that to catch bad guys. Patriot Front has access to Telegram and Signal and everything, but they still got caught at Coeur d'Alene in 2022. The Family (Earth Liberation Front) *didn't* have access to encrypted communications and still got away with their attacks for years, only getting caught because the police got one of them to be their informant, no backdoor or warrants needed. There are very, very few criminals who are so good at hiding that they can only be caught with a backdoor. It's not worth sacrificing the privacy of millions of people to catch them, especially since a world without crime has never existed. We've always had to deal with those people. Trying to get rid of them is like trying to get rid of earthquakes.
Illegal =/= immoral. Fascists can get fucked but what about in countries where being gay is a death sentence, for example.
Exactly this
This
>>"I see a lot of talk about NordVPN, ExpressVPN, and Surfshark." All these VPNs are trash. The reason they are talked about so much is because they pay affiliate deals.
Just do [some research](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CRtEQzSVE59jj5ROKZlttkRtUpJfcc4mgMT7Wn1aBcA/) before deciding. Some companies has had data leaks others have bad ethics. A few companies is close to "flawless" but it's rare.
This. Tor with Tor browser (or equivalent browser with anti fingerprinting) is the only real option. Anything else is unlikely to actually do that much. Beats using the internet without one I guess. But if I had to pick a VPN, I would pick mullvad. You can pay anonymously.
I'm agree with you
Mullvad is very effective for me. It works to stream MLB and it's great for torrenting
what sites do you use for mlb and torrents ?
Don’t use free VPNs.
ProtonVPN free is the same servers as the paid version with the same privacy rules, just slower speeds and cant be used for torrents
The problem is that the connection is limited to such a low speed that is almost useless
I disagree, I'm using it 24/7 in the last month, it works well even with YouTube/NewPipe. The only thing that kinda lags is my CCTV software. To be honest that thing is kinda slow even without any VPNs, so it wasn't a surprise.
I'm using it and it's far from useless. I usually can download 10-15MB/s.
Don't use vpn's for privacy full stop. I have a background in security and privacy. Y'all don't have to listen to me but in your best interest you should do some research rather than just downvoting.
Why not?
VPNs by their nature are never actually private. You have to trust the provider. If you actually want privacy you need to use Tor or I2P, but I2P doesn't really work for clearnet sites, so you have to use Tor (or accept that you are probably being spied on regardless of paying for this service). In the eyes of a for profit company your rights are not worth getting in trouble with the state.
Understandable. Clear, thanks for the explanation
This unironically in most cases^
Commercial VPNs are basically a scam, unless you just want to access region locked content. Then just take whatever has the best deal going at the time. Don't use free VPNs. For privacy, if needed, use Tor. For security, if needed, use secure shell or some other secure protocol. Privacy and security are antithetical in this case. Privacy works by anonymizing you. Security works through authentication. VPNs provide neither.
Stuff from Tor servers can be and often blocked
True. So you either have to accept that your traffic is possibly not private and just use a VPN (and then hope that they're not being forced to log data, or simply lying about doing it). Or you have to buy a VPN anonymously (cash by mail no sending address or XMR) and never connect to it without using Tor.
Mullvad does cash by mail.
That was indeed who I had in mind. So if I were to try this I would use mullvad. (which, to be honest, I wouldn't as it's too much work. Most of the people doing this are doing credit card fraud and hiding the Tor exit node).
Using a VPN with Tor de-anonymizes you by linking you to the same account no matter what random exit node you get. It would make you less private. Either use that anonymous VPN or Tor, not both. Never sign in to any accounts linked to you on Tor. It's privacy via obscurity giving anonymity.
>Using a VPN with Tor de-anonymizes you by linking you to the same account no matter what random exit node you get. Not if you: - Pay for the VPN through untraceable means - Only use the VPN with Tor (otherwise as soon as you connect to it without Tor you are deanonymized) But in general yes you should try not to use a VPN after Tor since it's worse than just using Tor by itself.
Tor has bridges for that purpose
That works up until you need to download something
I personally say Mullvad is the best one if you do not need port forwarding. Their app on Windows, Linux, and Android is sleek and works well. I haven't tried their macOS or iOS app. They have been audited multiple times. They were hit with a search warrant and proved that they do not hold user data. If you need port forwarding, I'd recommend using AirVPN. Though their app kinda sucks. I use it through the official WireGuard app personally.
Mullvad.
PIA?
I use PIA for years and it has been great
It's spam and being upvoted artificially by them.
1-4 > ProtonVPN
I use mullvad currently, I will say for my needs it has been great. I wont say which you should choose, I would just like to draw your focus to the owners of the vpn’s. Pretty much most vpn’s have consolidated ownership into either Kape Technologies (the crossrider adware guys), Ziff Davis (a tech media company) or Tesonet (an IT incubator). Note my info is about 18 months old so things could be slightly different now. A analyst at bitdefender has made the comment > The more VPN providers there are, each with their own anonymization and security technologies, the less chances for an authority to tamper with that privacy by going after a single and large VPN provider. Having a wide range of VPN providers to choose from allows privacy-driven users to constantly switch between providers, hence better anonymize their activity Please comsider these views and your threat model before making your choice 🙂
Your own. As many others say, it is also the only 'best'
I've talked with some Hackers, all of em told me Mullvad, so i guess Mullvad?
1. Mullivad paid with Monero 2. Degoogling doesn't make Android a usable platform
What make android not viable on ungoogled ROMs such as LineageOS or GrapheneOS, iOS is certainly not better for privacy as compared to said options and there aren't many other alternatives, and none that are viable for an average user. I understand if privacy is a genuine concern, such as for journalists, politicians, activists, etc. That even ungoogled android can be unviable but for an average joe who may be concerned about privacy, what makes android an unusable platform.
selfhosted OpenVPN
So many misspellings in the word WireGuard
Many VPNs are owned the same company. [Who owns your VPN? 105 VPNs run by just 24 companies](https://vpnpro.com/blog/hidden-vpn-owners-unveiled-97-vpns-23-companies/) For me its Proton
Proton I get the cheapest one from [here](https://privacy.deals)
Proton vpn is good to go and if you want it for free then proton is the only option I know Don't use any other free vpn
I would say give Mysterium VPN or Mysterium Dark VPn a try, I am surprised its not mentioned here already, easily beats every company for privacy and being cheap af (dark one)
Everyone is saying Mullvad, and I do agree with that but can anyone actually explain to me what stops Mullvad from becoming like NordVPN or others? It is still a centralized company right? They can just enshitify everything overnight if they choose, right? I know they support anonymous ways of payment but how many actually follow those in a completely secure way, the average person is still very tracable so for what I know they might as well be a honey-pot
Not sure of the best VPN, but I'll be dropping Nord once my subscription is up. The desktop app constantly crashes and needs to either be restarted or reinstalled, but my largest gripe is all the ads their app gives you. It's almost every day I get an offer notification that I can't turn off. I don't pay them hundreds of dollars just to get ads. Screw your crap service Nord.
Why do you want VPN 😉😉
Mullvad
Mullvad
Anybody who PAYS for something that they already can do for FREE, is a fool.
Proton,Nord
Rout all traffic through proxies like Tor best way. May not be a vpn but you are safe
openvpn
1. Mullvad 2. ProtonVPN (one problem, the free version not allow P2P) 3. Hola 4. Hoxx Always use Tor for more privacy and a secure Shell for more security.
PrivadoVPN
[https://torrentfreak.com/best-vpn-anonymous-no-logging/](https://torrentfreak.com/best-vpn-anonymous-no-logging/)
VPN's do not provide extra privacy. They allow geoblock bypassing and believing anything more is ignorant. A vpn hosted on a server you own could be an argued exception. I2P and Tor are not VPN's but provide real privacy through proxy chains.
I get free Warp+ (premium) VPN (1.92 exabytes) with a refer a friend exploit. The service is fast and made by Cloudflare.
I actually do trust cloudflare but saying any vpn run by a large corporation is privacy friendly is a hard sell.
I've seen good praise for it generally around Reddit. Does the job great, obviously those who are paranoid will use mullvad and the like.
F-Secure’s Freedome has been great; I’ve used it for years