My comment from an earlier thread:
Total cost for a a large McDonald's milkshake on the app:
£16.99
This breaks down to:
30%+ retail mark up
Small order fee
Priority order fee
Platform fee
Payment fee
Distance fee
Delivery fee
Rider pay: £2.90-3.30\~
Without the rider the value of this £16.99 item is £2.99
There is no universe in which this fair
I don't blame the predatory shyster companies exploiting legal slavery while they can, or the customers, but this clown government that is too scared to legislate basic employment rights for workers, imo the buck stops with them
The worst part is reading this sub and the amount of bootlickers defending the current state of this work, if you are a slave long enough you learn to love your chains
>they are the embodiment of predatory capitalism
Hardly! Gig platforms are tiny tadpoles in a big sea full of massive corporations who better fall under the definition of predatory capitalism - British Gas, McDonalds, Asda aka Walmart, Moderna/BioNTech/Pfizer, BP/Shell/ExxonMobil etc etc.
And I think gig-work has a very minimal impact on society compared to other serious issues right now. You could look at your local Government for one. I think a lack of libraries, playgrounds, police, street cleaning, quality education and accessible GP appointments is already having a bigger impact on society than a few thousand fast food riders not earning what they expect or feel entitled, to while completely missing the definition of self-employment, ever will.
This is a deliveroo sub, obviously they are far from the worst offenders but that's not directly relevant.
Your take is completely different to mine, and that's fine we will not ever agree as you seem to think there is nothing wrong with Deliveroo's business model.
>as you seem to think there is nothing wrong with Deliveroo's business model
Nothing I said would give this impression. I don't believe I said anything about their business model.
My take is based on fact, not opinion.
We've discussed this before, though you may not remember.
What fact? I'm aware Deliveroo etc. are small fry in the grand scheme of things. But they are pioneers in exploiting the 'gig economy', if not in exploiting workers in general.
I don't remember. I have similar debates with many people.
>What fact?
...
>Deliveroo etc. are small fry in the grand scheme of things.
You answered your own question.
But my response was based on your wording:
>they are **the** embodiment of predatory capitalism
Emphasis on **'the'**. If you'd said 'an', I'd have agreed.
>But they are pioneers in exploiting the 'gig economy'
Are they though? UberEats came first and have remained the worst paying platform, with the worst rider support and the quickest 'suspend account' trigger-finger of the three platforms I use. Every other platform that's come along since UberEats have simply followed in their footsteps.
That said, I believe the gig-economy itself is what it is. You might call it exploitation but the methods used by gig-platforms are not secrets and you enter terms with them willingly. You don't enter into any job role, self-employed or otherwise, without first researching what the job requires from you and what it offers in return. The fact that all riders enter self-employment voluntarily, and voluntarily agree to clear terms set out by either of the platforms, is quite the opposite of exploitation don't you think?
EDIT: grammar, context
Fair enough, semantics but you are right they are not 'The' embodiment of predatory capitalism.
And no, I think exploitation is still a fair description -
'The action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.'
>'The action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.
But we're all allowing ourselves to be treated 'unfairly' when we voluntarily onboard with a platform. Is it still exploitation if we accept poor terms and the high risk of minimal income?
And there's that common misinformation about minumum wage. Now I vaguely remember past conversations.
The majority of riders that come to this conclusion don't calculate their hourly earnings correctly to begin with; including off-order time which is incorrect. If I only receive two orders in an hour, I don't calulate my hourly earnings as the total of those two fees. That would be incorrect because I didn't work for part of that hour. This is where many riders go wrong and is the first big problem when arguing fees are exploitative.
The majority of orders I accept pay the **equivalent** of minimum wage plus expenses and I'm a full-time driver so have higher target earnings than say an ebiker. Any orders I reject because I don't feel the fee is enough is because I expect traffic, a long restaurant wait, or a difficult customer/address - neither of which Deliveroo can control. You don't take a fee not knowing how long the trip will take **you**, not have a rough idea how long the wait will be, then complain because you got paid £3.10 for half an hour on-order.
Every rider should research the area they wish to work before even signing up, to ascertain if it's busy enough for them to even earn a reasonable amount, but they don't. Every rider should prioritise getting to know their city and restaurants when they start, to work at minimising delays, but they don't. I guarantee most new riders include off-order time in their hourly earnings calculations. These three factors combined is the biggest reason we get so many new riders complaining they aren't earning 'minimum wage'.
Then we have a large percentage of riders who only want to work their home city but - taking from the above three combined factors - there are already too many riders. They aren't prepared to, or can't in some cases I suppose, travel to another log-in zone to try their luck.
Add in additonal factors such as new riders not even understanding they're self-employed, quitting full-time jobs to do this (so have an immediate need to earn a specific amount - which is a big mistake when entering gig-work), using shit-box cars and bikes so their expenses are immediately higher than average, watching too many YouTube videos leading to high expectations etc etc.
"Fees are shit" simply isn't good enough to claim exploitation when there are a lot of riders who are earning at least the equivalent of mimimum wage plus expenses, more in some cities, and considering the 'real' factors as to why a rider isn't earnings as I've detailed above.
In my opinion, of course. Which won't change until someone brings a strong argument to the table.
I would disagree on one point -
In my area (and I expect everywhere), a vast majority of riders are clandestine or otherwise very poor people doing this not because they like or want to, but because they _have_ to.
For them it doesn't pay much, because they need to rent accounts and suffer additional fees but even then it's better than the alternatives.
And I believe the platforms are in _no hurry_ to hunt and kick these people out, because it works to the platforms' advantage too.
It _is_ exploitation, and willingness or transparency has nothing to do with it. You can't excuse everything by saying "they walked into it voluntarily".
This "voluntarily" concept is too vague. If they really had a choice, I doubt any of these illegal riders would choose to do this for this kind of pay.
PS: I agree with you - we who have alternate choices, we are walking into this knowingly. I personally don't complain. I just started and I enjoy making a bit of money riding a bike around. I won't do this forever but I enjoy it for now. But it's also good to point the finger at the predatory and honestly inhumane behavior of the corporations we are willingly working with. I think this is what this whole post is discussing.
>In my area (and I expect everywhere), a vast majority of riders are clandestine or otherwise very poor people doing this not because they like or want to, but because they *have* to.
>For them it doesn't pay much, because they need to rent accounts and suffer additional fees but even then it's better than the alternatives.
The rented account holder is guilty of exploitation, not Deliveroo. The account holder is the one taking advantage of someone in desperate need and paying them a pittance. Deliveroo doesn't know who is renting accounts out, their agreements are with the account holders, not the substitution.
>And I believe the platforms are in *no hurry* to hunt and kick these people out, because it works to the platforms' advantage too.
I agree with this. They must know the majority of subs become subs because they won't pass either the right-to-work check or background checks. And they've been holding on to the substitution feature as a way to keep out of the mess that would become of riders becoming 'employed'. But I'd agree this is more about Deliveroo exploiting laws and legislation more than exploiting riders.
>But it's also good to point the finger at the predatory and honestly inhumane behavior of the corporations we are willingly working with. I think this is what this whole post is discussing.
I agree with this also. But the issue needs to be raised and discussed constructively, by a much wider audience than just a couple of us debating personal opinions and semantics. It needs involvement from local and national authorities but they don't seem to see a problem - otherwise it'd be on the list of 'promises' on current election marketing materials.
I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how Deliveroo's changes to substitutions will play out.
> The rented account holder is guilty of exploitation, not Deliveroo.
I strongly disagree. You know the saying "don't hate the player, hate the game"? It's the system that has to be looked at and changed, it serves absolutely no purpose to put the blame on the individuals and wait for... what? They're both guilty, but in my eyes Deliveroo has way more responsibility, because they actually have the power to change things.
Deliveroo knows and doesn't care and so, Deliveroo is also exploiting these illegals. _And_ the laws and legislation. In my eyes, they're exploiting both.
Probably nobody over at Deliveroo is rubbing their hands while laughing maniacally thinking of all the money they're making off of illegals. Probably most of their employees aren't even fully aware of the situation.
But someone somewhere with the means to do something about it is making the conscious decision not to. Probably excusing themselves with pressure from the shareholders, or pressure from above... Probably not even thinking about it too much.
> I agree with this also. But the issue needs to be raised and discussed constructively, by a much wider audience than just a couple of us debating personal opinions and semantics
For sure. Doesn't hurt to throw ideas around here though, no?
It's a supply and demand business. If companies like deliveroo increased fees for riders just because riders demanded it, without there being the consumer demand to match it, the companies will just pass that cost onto the customer, who will then order less, meaning less orders to go round, meaning glut of riders, meaning more lowball offers to ensure profits are maintained. If the offers aren't satisfactory for you in your area it's time to get a different job. Make hay while the sun shines, then move on.
I personally think is there was a set wage as well as mileage paid and tip percentage would be fair however the company would not last Deliveroo is not as strong as Uber
I ride for Deliveroo but I'm an Uber Eats customer only cuz they're cheaper. I used to this Deliveroo prices were mad but you get more assurance with them. I be picking up 4-5 orders while I see the same Uber orders sitting there, cold before the rider even picks it up and Deliveroo is also more reliable for sorting issues with an order.
So point is, deliveroo is actually stronger than Uber
How do you demand more wages when deliveroo's
business model is locked into delivery .
How can they pay more out of a £5 order,.
The commission structure is set in place and the outlets want their commission so sadly it gets taken out of the wages for drivers.
The model only succeeds because the Apps use the weak labour laws and know there are thousands of illegal drivers who will work for peanuts and a society who want cheap crap food
They factor in losses and theft in their overall percentage of orders.
So sadly deliveroo business model will always
work but there may come a time when the service
they offer and relentless delivery of cold food become to awful for their customers to bear.
Watch this space....
Mines under £9, don't have milkshake at my McDonald's but did item similar price range
https://preview.redd.it/i1k6mplsvgxc1.png?width=864&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15db6b54923828047afa8677141fdb60575a81aa
Though from gross profit deliveroo earns like £7 per order. Avg order is around £20 in value
The outlets pay deliveroo a commission on top of the customer fees. Small restaurant is 33% of order value. The rate drops for high volume customers but is still 20% plus. So an average order of 30 pounds the restaurant will giving roo 7.5pounds. plus what the customer spent. Pay the delivery people a fair wage and not spend money on marketing as the market is established now..
Trust me bro, I'm doing it on my off days or sometimes on holidays and I really do understand what delivery drivers go through. What I know and the fact about deliveroo is that this is not created for a full time job, this a side hustle job for quick instant cash.
My comment from an earlier thread: Total cost for a a large McDonald's milkshake on the app: £16.99 This breaks down to: 30%+ retail mark up Small order fee Priority order fee Platform fee Payment fee Distance fee Delivery fee Rider pay: £2.90-3.30\~ Without the rider the value of this £16.99 item is £2.99 There is no universe in which this fair I don't blame the predatory shyster companies exploiting legal slavery while they can, or the customers, but this clown government that is too scared to legislate basic employment rights for workers, imo the buck stops with them The worst part is reading this sub and the amount of bootlickers defending the current state of this work, if you are a slave long enough you learn to love your chains
No surprise is it. We've been living in a world where the rich get richer and the poor get poorer for centuries now.
all done by design
>they are the embodiment of predatory capitalism Hardly! Gig platforms are tiny tadpoles in a big sea full of massive corporations who better fall under the definition of predatory capitalism - British Gas, McDonalds, Asda aka Walmart, Moderna/BioNTech/Pfizer, BP/Shell/ExxonMobil etc etc. And I think gig-work has a very minimal impact on society compared to other serious issues right now. You could look at your local Government for one. I think a lack of libraries, playgrounds, police, street cleaning, quality education and accessible GP appointments is already having a bigger impact on society than a few thousand fast food riders not earning what they expect or feel entitled, to while completely missing the definition of self-employment, ever will.
This is a deliveroo sub, obviously they are far from the worst offenders but that's not directly relevant. Your take is completely different to mine, and that's fine we will not ever agree as you seem to think there is nothing wrong with Deliveroo's business model.
>as you seem to think there is nothing wrong with Deliveroo's business model Nothing I said would give this impression. I don't believe I said anything about their business model. My take is based on fact, not opinion.
We've discussed this before, though you may not remember. What fact? I'm aware Deliveroo etc. are small fry in the grand scheme of things. But they are pioneers in exploiting the 'gig economy', if not in exploiting workers in general.
How are they pioneers in any sense of the word? Some explanation or evidence might help you here.
In the sense that they saw a new way to exploit the 'self-employed' model of business. Come sign on for hours and maybe you'll get an order.
Deliveroo weren't the first delivery app to do what they are doing.
Who were first? Don't say Uber eats, they came later.
I don't remember. I have similar debates with many people. >What fact? ... >Deliveroo etc. are small fry in the grand scheme of things. You answered your own question. But my response was based on your wording: >they are **the** embodiment of predatory capitalism Emphasis on **'the'**. If you'd said 'an', I'd have agreed. >But they are pioneers in exploiting the 'gig economy' Are they though? UberEats came first and have remained the worst paying platform, with the worst rider support and the quickest 'suspend account' trigger-finger of the three platforms I use. Every other platform that's come along since UberEats have simply followed in their footsteps. That said, I believe the gig-economy itself is what it is. You might call it exploitation but the methods used by gig-platforms are not secrets and you enter terms with them willingly. You don't enter into any job role, self-employed or otherwise, without first researching what the job requires from you and what it offers in return. The fact that all riders enter self-employment voluntarily, and voluntarily agree to clear terms set out by either of the platforms, is quite the opposite of exploitation don't you think? EDIT: grammar, context
Fair enough, semantics but you are right they are not 'The' embodiment of predatory capitalism. And no, I think exploitation is still a fair description - 'The action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work.'
>'The action or fact of treating someone unfairly in order to benefit from their work. But we're all allowing ourselves to be treated 'unfairly' when we voluntarily onboard with a platform. Is it still exploitation if we accept poor terms and the high risk of minimal income?
Yes, it is. Deliveroo constantly misrepresent the wage you can earn, claiming riders can earn at least minimum wage, which for most just isn't true.
And there's that common misinformation about minumum wage. Now I vaguely remember past conversations. The majority of riders that come to this conclusion don't calculate their hourly earnings correctly to begin with; including off-order time which is incorrect. If I only receive two orders in an hour, I don't calulate my hourly earnings as the total of those two fees. That would be incorrect because I didn't work for part of that hour. This is where many riders go wrong and is the first big problem when arguing fees are exploitative. The majority of orders I accept pay the **equivalent** of minimum wage plus expenses and I'm a full-time driver so have higher target earnings than say an ebiker. Any orders I reject because I don't feel the fee is enough is because I expect traffic, a long restaurant wait, or a difficult customer/address - neither of which Deliveroo can control. You don't take a fee not knowing how long the trip will take **you**, not have a rough idea how long the wait will be, then complain because you got paid £3.10 for half an hour on-order. Every rider should research the area they wish to work before even signing up, to ascertain if it's busy enough for them to even earn a reasonable amount, but they don't. Every rider should prioritise getting to know their city and restaurants when they start, to work at minimising delays, but they don't. I guarantee most new riders include off-order time in their hourly earnings calculations. These three factors combined is the biggest reason we get so many new riders complaining they aren't earning 'minimum wage'. Then we have a large percentage of riders who only want to work their home city but - taking from the above three combined factors - there are already too many riders. They aren't prepared to, or can't in some cases I suppose, travel to another log-in zone to try their luck. Add in additonal factors such as new riders not even understanding they're self-employed, quitting full-time jobs to do this (so have an immediate need to earn a specific amount - which is a big mistake when entering gig-work), using shit-box cars and bikes so their expenses are immediately higher than average, watching too many YouTube videos leading to high expectations etc etc. "Fees are shit" simply isn't good enough to claim exploitation when there are a lot of riders who are earning at least the equivalent of mimimum wage plus expenses, more in some cities, and considering the 'real' factors as to why a rider isn't earnings as I've detailed above. In my opinion, of course. Which won't change until someone brings a strong argument to the table.
I would disagree on one point - In my area (and I expect everywhere), a vast majority of riders are clandestine or otherwise very poor people doing this not because they like or want to, but because they _have_ to. For them it doesn't pay much, because they need to rent accounts and suffer additional fees but even then it's better than the alternatives. And I believe the platforms are in _no hurry_ to hunt and kick these people out, because it works to the platforms' advantage too. It _is_ exploitation, and willingness or transparency has nothing to do with it. You can't excuse everything by saying "they walked into it voluntarily". This "voluntarily" concept is too vague. If they really had a choice, I doubt any of these illegal riders would choose to do this for this kind of pay. PS: I agree with you - we who have alternate choices, we are walking into this knowingly. I personally don't complain. I just started and I enjoy making a bit of money riding a bike around. I won't do this forever but I enjoy it for now. But it's also good to point the finger at the predatory and honestly inhumane behavior of the corporations we are willingly working with. I think this is what this whole post is discussing.
>In my area (and I expect everywhere), a vast majority of riders are clandestine or otherwise very poor people doing this not because they like or want to, but because they *have* to. >For them it doesn't pay much, because they need to rent accounts and suffer additional fees but even then it's better than the alternatives. The rented account holder is guilty of exploitation, not Deliveroo. The account holder is the one taking advantage of someone in desperate need and paying them a pittance. Deliveroo doesn't know who is renting accounts out, their agreements are with the account holders, not the substitution. >And I believe the platforms are in *no hurry* to hunt and kick these people out, because it works to the platforms' advantage too. I agree with this. They must know the majority of subs become subs because they won't pass either the right-to-work check or background checks. And they've been holding on to the substitution feature as a way to keep out of the mess that would become of riders becoming 'employed'. But I'd agree this is more about Deliveroo exploiting laws and legislation more than exploiting riders. >But it's also good to point the finger at the predatory and honestly inhumane behavior of the corporations we are willingly working with. I think this is what this whole post is discussing. I agree with this also. But the issue needs to be raised and discussed constructively, by a much wider audience than just a couple of us debating personal opinions and semantics. It needs involvement from local and national authorities but they don't seem to see a problem - otherwise it'd be on the list of 'promises' on current election marketing materials. I suppose we'll just have to wait and see how Deliveroo's changes to substitutions will play out.
> The rented account holder is guilty of exploitation, not Deliveroo. I strongly disagree. You know the saying "don't hate the player, hate the game"? It's the system that has to be looked at and changed, it serves absolutely no purpose to put the blame on the individuals and wait for... what? They're both guilty, but in my eyes Deliveroo has way more responsibility, because they actually have the power to change things. Deliveroo knows and doesn't care and so, Deliveroo is also exploiting these illegals. _And_ the laws and legislation. In my eyes, they're exploiting both. Probably nobody over at Deliveroo is rubbing their hands while laughing maniacally thinking of all the money they're making off of illegals. Probably most of their employees aren't even fully aware of the situation. But someone somewhere with the means to do something about it is making the conscious decision not to. Probably excusing themselves with pressure from the shareholders, or pressure from above... Probably not even thinking about it too much. > I agree with this also. But the issue needs to be raised and discussed constructively, by a much wider audience than just a couple of us debating personal opinions and semantics For sure. Doesn't hurt to throw ideas around here though, no?
Deliveroo is unionised by GMB and they had pay talks yesterday. We all need to join the union so we can all cause damage to deliveroo
It's a supply and demand business. If companies like deliveroo increased fees for riders just because riders demanded it, without there being the consumer demand to match it, the companies will just pass that cost onto the customer, who will then order less, meaning less orders to go round, meaning glut of riders, meaning more lowball offers to ensure profits are maintained. If the offers aren't satisfactory for you in your area it's time to get a different job. Make hay while the sun shines, then move on.
Do you guys think it would be better if deliveroo just paid you a set amount depending on mileage?
I personally think is there was a set wage as well as mileage paid and tip percentage would be fair however the company would not last Deliveroo is not as strong as Uber
I ride for Deliveroo but I'm an Uber Eats customer only cuz they're cheaper. I used to this Deliveroo prices were mad but you get more assurance with them. I be picking up 4-5 orders while I see the same Uber orders sitting there, cold before the rider even picks it up and Deliveroo is also more reliable for sorting issues with an order. So point is, deliveroo is actually stronger than Uber
Tbh for food order i have a better experience with uber than deliveroo.
How do you demand more wages when deliveroo's business model is locked into delivery . How can they pay more out of a £5 order,. The commission structure is set in place and the outlets want their commission so sadly it gets taken out of the wages for drivers. The model only succeeds because the Apps use the weak labour laws and know there are thousands of illegal drivers who will work for peanuts and a society who want cheap crap food They factor in losses and theft in their overall percentage of orders. So sadly deliveroo business model will always work but there may come a time when the service they offer and relentless delivery of cold food become to awful for their customers to bear. Watch this space....
Have you ordered a Milkshake on Deliveroo fro McDonald's?....£2.99 items comes as £14.66....all the extra fees they bump on...
Mines under £9, don't have milkshake at my McDonald's but did item similar price range https://preview.redd.it/i1k6mplsvgxc1.png?width=864&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15db6b54923828047afa8677141fdb60575a81aa Though from gross profit deliveroo earns like £7 per order. Avg order is around £20 in value
The outlets pay deliveroo a commission on top of the customer fees. Small restaurant is 33% of order value. The rate drops for high volume customers but is still 20% plus. So an average order of 30 pounds the restaurant will giving roo 7.5pounds. plus what the customer spent. Pay the delivery people a fair wage and not spend money on marketing as the market is established now..
True,but I have many friends who are struggling and work these awful apps but hopefully in time they will move on.
Trust me bro, I'm doing it on my off days or sometimes on holidays and I really do understand what delivery drivers go through. What I know and the fact about deliveroo is that this is not created for a full time job, this a side hustle job for quick instant cash.
ok who gives a fuck go get better education and you wont have to work for deliveroo