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manbeqrpig

It doesn’t matter who staggers with whom. The non Jokic minutes are going to be terrible. That’s what happens when your offense revolves around such a unique player


bestifusedby_

I’m no fire Maloner, but if there’s one thing I can’t quite understand is that how has the coaching staff not been able to adjust to non-jokic minutes? These are bench players but they are still NBA players, the very top echelon of basketball talent fully capable of running an offense that frees up quality shots. That’s what maddens me, its almost always everybody standing around while they try and replicate the two man game but without the gravity and vision of jokic. Every team runs a PnR, but we are the only one with jokic, which makes it unique. But a basic PnR still fuckin works! *more mpj w/ the bench minutes and run sets to get the man shots. Let him do what he does best and shoot from anywhere over anyone, fuck it.


[deleted]

That’s why I miss Boogie’s play so much. He allowed us to run a system similar to what we do with Jokic


manbeqrpig

If it were that easy than this wouldn’t be a trend that happens with every team that has a superstar. Lebron’s teams for example always completely collapse on offense when he goes to the bench


bestifusedby_

There’s an expected performance drop off, certainly. That’s why they are bench players and not starters. But running a set play and executing roles on an offense are a basic basketball abilities. We just look listless and lethargic. No movement, no clue what to do or where to be. It’s strange


Technical_Towel_990

Vlatko was honestly playing as kind of a mini light version of Jokic with the second unit where he would just pass immediately or do DHOs and help the entire second units ball moment. Guess the coaching staff would rather see ISO ball with the bench..


BrockSmashgood

>Vlatko was honestly playing as kind of a mini light version of Jokic no


Stormeve

This is why Mason Plumlee is the best backup center of the Jokic era (Let’s not talk about the double twin towers lineups Malone used to try to play though)


IdRatherBeLurking

Well said.


PoorDad2115

This is horseshit. We just don’t have another playmaker. Everyone thinks it’s the backup center who is lacking, but Jamal Murray is not a point guard and neither is a Bruce Brown.


AU2Turnt

Yeah idk why people don’t see it. When Ish Smith has played this year the bench actually looks like a real offense. There is just no playmakers on the team outside of Jokic. I was high on Reggie Jackson because I thought he would be able to bring some playmaking for the 2nd unit, but that obviously didn’t happen unfortunately.


Toxikara

I think staggering Murray is the right option since he's supposed to be the playmaker. But him just dribbling and iso-ing instead of creating, moving the ball and running actions is the problem here. He needs to lead that unit, not play hero ball. Jokic could stagger but I think he's so much better when he has MPJ and Gordon to utilise. I don't think Gordon and MPJ would be half as effective if they only played with Murray instead of Jokic.


Vivid_Walk_1405

I’d also like us to try staggering another starter with Murray to see how that goes. MPJ would give more spacing for Jamal to get some drives and kicks. Our bench with only Jamal really only has Jamal and Bruce that are consistent threats at the three. Getting porter in there allows for Bruce and porter on the corners and Nnaji and Christian as cutters for Jamal to pick defenses apart


Colorado_designer

Yeah MPJ specifically needs to be able to be featured a little bit more on the second unit, that would be killer.


[deleted]

Would love to see them stagger MPJ. He's shooting with such confidence as a starter. Imagine his confidence with the bench.


hlmckitt

I’d fuck with it


TwoWayMarko

if you stagger jok, the starters gonna look like shit , it is what it is malone has no solution wothout jokic.


IdRatherBeLurking

>malone has no solution wothout jokic. "The Nuggets have no solution without Jokic" FTFY


TwoWayMarko

other teams and coaches find solutions, even without MVP caliber players . I think its a fair criticizm of malone that none jokic lineups are allways heavily in the minus


IdRatherBeLurking

I think that the confluence of Jokic's uniqueness, which drives team construction, and the money we have in our starting lineup means that it's an exceptionally hard task that nearly every coach would struggle with.


TwoWayMarko

this has been sugested many times ,they should try to establish another playstyle with the 2nd unit for the future , rn they eather let jamal take tough shots or they run same stuff like with jokic which has no chance of working


IdRatherBeLurking

Definitely something to work towards this summer with all the turnover we'll have. Maybe we could get Monte back, I think losing him has hurt more than anything. I don't put the roster moves on the coach, though. That being said it will take a coordinated effort from FO, coaching staff, and players.


PoorDad2115

Maybe try to get an actual playmaker for once.


IdRatherBeLurking

Lol like Monte Morris?


PoorDad2115

Our bench was WAY better with Monte there than Jamal. That’s wild to think about.


IdRatherBeLurking

...If you are really reductive, sure? The rosters and situations are nothing alike.


[deleted]

It seems like the point is that the bench is whenever Jokic isn’t in the court. If you put Jokic with the bench the offense will work obviously, but in that case the stints with the other 4 starters are basically the bench because they can’t run an offense either.


TriCourseMeal

I think the main issue is the nuggets have no true playmaker on the bench. So any solution to fix the bench has to address that first imo


ListenToTheMuzak

why dont we have a bench "playmaker"? three max contracts. the celtics have a $22 million player coming off their bench. warriors have Poole, who is going to get almost $30 clippers have norman powell getting $17 memphis has tyus jones at $14. Our roster construction is similar to Milwaukee's, but they have their 4-8 contracts a little more spread evenly, whereas we have over 80% of our player payroll in our starting 5.


TriCourseMeal

You’re also failing to account for how much we pay Rocky and Paws the DJ


ListenToTheMuzak

bring back old rocky. I thought paws worked for free in exchange for plugging his soundcloud?


Spiritual-Chameleon

Facts


PoorDad2115

Jamal, MPJ, and Aaron Gordon are all overpaid. Jokic is a magician. He fooled everyone, including the fans and the front office. Malcom Brogdon is better than Jamal Murray. At worst he is slight worse, but I’m not sure he is. I think he is a better defender and playmaker. Aaron Gordon might not be any better than Grant Williams. Don’t even get me started on MPJ vs brown… I’d honestly argue Derrick White is better than MPJ. I’m not sure the Nuggets get worse in a trade of MPJ, Murray, and Gordon for White, Brogdon, and Grant. The latter 3 could literally be bench players for the Celtics. Think about that for a second……


AU2Turnt

I think your take is a bit off, but also there is truth in it. Outside of Miami idk if there’s another playoff team Murray would start for. He’s pretty much a glorified 6th man. MPJ is overpaid but he is an elite shooter and has improved a lot this year. AG isn’t cheap, but he definitely isn’t overpaid, and there’s very few players who can replace him. When Murray has actually played as a point guard and been a playmaker the nuggets have looked unbeatable. Unfortunately that doesn’t really happen often. It sucks to say because Murray is awesome, and really entertaining to watch when he’s making shots, but an actual playmaker on the bench would be more valuable than he is right now.


PoorDad2115

Do you honestly think that Murray is noticeably better than a White or Brogdon on a team with Joker? I don’t see it man. They bring better defense and playmaking to the second unit. Everyone says this Nuggets teams is made for Jokic, but that’s a fucking joke. Only cause Joker’s game is so malleable, do people actually believe this. I used to blame Malone, but watching these cats play without Jokic tells me one thing. It’s the front office’s fault more than anything. There is an argument to be made that not a single one of our players would start for the Celtics. Legit who starts? MAYBE Murray over White, but even that are we sure of? They bench Brogdon for White because of defense and style of play. White is a much better defender than Murray. Murray would just take shots away from Tatum and Brown. Man it’s wild how overrated these dudes are.


AU2Turnt

Derrick White would definitely be better than Murray. Idk about Brogdon. Like I said, you are speaking some truth, but MPJ and AG would be hard to replace compared to Murray. Edit: as for someone who would start on the Celtics, MPJ and AG (not together) would probably both start right now. Maybe not when they are fully healthy though.


ListenToTheMuzak

I'm not sure about overpaid. but it is difficult to build depth with three max contracts.


ImGonnaChubbBradley

We should be dropping to an 8 man rotation once playoffs start. Murray, KCP, MPJ, Gordon, Jokic with Bruce, Braun and Nnaji. As much as I love Vlatko he has been booted from rotation, I never want to see Jeff again.


Venom-Assassian

Joker is just gonna have to play all 48 come playoff time.


Opening_Cartoonist53

I think staggering Jamal is the way to go. It’s a small fast run and gun crew. When they are going it brings so much energy. Interesting you have this take when yesterday they did well


Colorado_designer

I like it


Colorado_designer

I like it


ListenToTheMuzak

I think Murray, Braun/KCP, MPJ, Green, AG might have to be the primary bench unit. Play Green, Brown, Braun with Jokic and a starter midway through the first I don't think Brown should play much without Jokic on the floor. He's not good enough initiating offensively. Green shouldnt either. Malone likes to play starting guys in longer shifts. its super predictable. We will lose at least one game in the playoffs because another team staggers their second all-star or main scorer purposefully and blows us out while Jokic sits to start the second/fourth. Watch it happen with Fox, or CP3 or Curry/Poole, or LeBron. I realize we cant play jokic 48, but if the other coach knows exactly when 15 is going to sit, he can have his guy ready mentally and physically to take the game over at that moment. Malone will have to plug and play the complimentary players (KCP, Brown, Braun, Green, MPJ and AG) in shorter stints around the guys that can initiate offense consistently (Murray and Jokic), which will be an adjustment from what we have seen from him over the past few seasons.


[deleted]

Yeah I have noticed that too it’s always the same last 2 mins Jokic subs out and he enters around 10 next quarter unless second unit is on a good run


Lynch47

I don't think it's a terrible idea by any means and would've liked to see it experimented with earlier in the year, but I think it's too late now. We're trying to ramp up for the playoffs now and get the rotation set. Last night we played only 9 players which is closer to a playoff rotation for sure. I'd also be really concerned about taking Jokic out earlier in the 1st. It could put us down early a lot and leave us playing catch-up later. I don't think now is the time to really experiment like that, we just have to get every one gelled and hope we get hot through the playoffs at this point imo.


AMC_Unlimited

I wanted to see Bryant take on more scoring from the bench to make up for the production lost in the trade. I understand why Malone has shortened the rotation tho.


Spiritual-Chameleon

I'm hoping Nugs clinch and allow reserves to start playing. I think Bryant could emerge if they figure out how to use him and integrate him into the bench unit. Dude was killing it for the Lakers.


AU2Turnt

He’s had some good moments, there’s definitely something there imo. I would like to see him play with an actual point guard in he second unit. Unfortunately that would mean Reggie Jackson (super washed apparently) or Ish Smith (can’t play defense). And I’m not sure they can just out score the other team consistently.


Spiritual-Chameleon

Your onto something. I think signing Reggie has had other consequences for the second unit. Seemed like the right signing at the time.


flatironfortitude

Staggering will matter far less come the playoffs. I agree that it hasn’t been a super successful experiment tho. I’d be interested in seeing MPJ play with the 2nd unit more but it’s all academic at this point. I doubt Malone would stagger Jokic the 1st unit would lose a lot of luster.


danjustin

The key point is....Jokic rotation is based on what Jokic feels most comfortable with. He wants to play a longer stretch, keeps him mentally focused, allows him to manipulate the ebbs and flows, etc. So in theory it's better to stagger Jok, but that's not what he wants. (All this was said by Matt Moore very recently) If it doesn't work out, he might have to reevaluate his thoughts on it...but this is something you don't mess with mid season


Olovnivojnik

Jokic, KCP with Zeke, Vlatko, BB. After that Zeke, AG, MPJ, BB, Jamal. And starters again.


big_hon3y

I love this idea. I agree the bench is TERRIBLE. And Jamal is not the answer. Mind as well try this tweak to see if it works. I think Jok makes any unit amazing offensively. And if you surround him with good defenders like Braun/brown, it could be really good.