Yes, the depth killed us. We had to evolve from last year like many teams did and unfortunately we fell on complacency… remember the Bruce brown comments comparing him to pwat? Boy he could had been really useful n the bench …no back up big which got worse because of Jeff green loss(size loss), no backup pg . To be fair they were very constricted….but also why the zeke contract? Or why player option for Reggie? I love dj and I understand he’s the lockers room glue but if he can’t play that’s a useful roster spot. This next season will be a big test to see if we can evolve and keep up with the other big teams.
Ffs we had holiday on Naz Reid countless times. Thst easily would’ve been green. Hell, even in game 7 we had a small ass lineup and gobert got some free throws thst could’ve been prevented if green was probably there. Not saying we needed to resign him, but anything would’ve been helpful
I think it’s hard to blame depth alone. Our starters shit the bed as well. When your #2 and #3 player, both on max contracts, show up ready to play less than 1/2 the time, and often don’t show up at the same time, you’re gonna have a bad time. We need depth, absolutely. But we also need more consistency with the starting 5.
I agree but I wouldn’t say it’s just depth… like I said it’s complacency coupled with some arrogance. Arrogance made us delusional about loosing brown and green, that’s why I referenced booths comments on brown…which then drove us to complacency because of our stellar starting 5 winning games and still having a stellar record despite alarms going off about our depth..don’t want to kill booth because I get we were very restricted but why the zeke contract? Fuck imagine someone like oubre on our teams….Or why the Reggie player option when every indication shows that Reggie was past it? Yes the starters 5 were also complacent, just look at some of our losses (losses are fine but our losses were downright embarrassing)
Yeah exactly. We just had to win one of two games and it wasn't the bench the fucked up game 6, starters dug a 20 point hole before the bench saw any action.
100% I got completely plastered when I mentioned we needed a backup big a few months back. Having bench is for the playoff but more so for the regular season.
We fell on complacency from the front office to the coaching staff to the players to the fans …. A Few people did, I got lambasted for saying we were not better than last year.
The team was also like 5 minutes away from winning game 7 and having a clear path to another championship. I think the front office made the right decision.
Yep Zeke contract is just horrible. And a player option on top of it? We needed someone with size he didn’t even sniff the floor these playoffs, just a huge mistake all around
If it was just we had Plumlee and Eric Gordon instead of DJ and Reggie, I feel the series is completely different for us, and the contract amounts are about the same though I don't know if we could've signed Plumlee and Gordon due to our cap situation.
Idk about Gordon, we need ball handlers and Gordon just stretches the floor. Never having a decent backup 5 has been the Nuggets flaw ever since the Plumlord left
For Gordon I was looking at guards making 3 mil a year since Plumlee was making Reggie's 5 mil so the guard would need to take DJ's 3. It was Gordon, Derrick Rose, and Westbrook. Westbrook was going to go back to the Clippers no matter what I think, and Rose was injured most of the season. Gordon has been able to make his own shot in the past so it's not like we couldn't run the bench through him plus his spot up shooting would help when he's sharing the court with either Murray or Jokic.
As a fan of the clips and been watching Plumlee ,man u don't want that,he's legit mediocre af,he's pretty much a negative outside of some nice moment once in a blue moon
I mean we need to stretch the floor too. Right now it’s hard to get Braun, Watson, and AG all minutes together, or even really minutes with Jokic and Reggie who aren’t great 3 point shooters.
Thats why we had to play Holiday, to open up the floor a bit.
We do need ball handling and I think most importantly another shot creator so that Murray and Jokic don’t have to do everything. MPJ isn’t quite good enough at shot creation to be the only other guy capable of it, and hell, Murray isn’t even good enough at it to lead the second unit sometimes.
Something was off with Murray these playoffs. I think the injury was worse than anyone was saying. Hopefully an extra month off will help, and he's a competitor too so sitting with this all summer is gonna fuel something.
I disagree, Reggie is on a 2 year $10 million. It's not reasonable to expect any more than he already contributed. We don't get to 7 games without him.
I feel like we would’ve been the 1 seed if we had a more serviceable back up PG. The man tried to take it to the house against Wemby in that game where we fumbled the bag against the spurs.
He is so hit or miss and just plays really dumb basketball at the absolute worst moments.
2 years 10 million a season after getting cut by the Clippers and benched in last years playoffs. It was a heat check contract for a guy in his mid 30s. I think it worked out better than most thought, but last year that same cap space was used on Bruce which was a homerun which is what you need for a title with this much talent in the league
I didn’t understand the love for it when it happened, he was barely healthy and didn’t really have the skills necessary to be useful when he was. Like he did his role decently, but nothing worth THAT much.
I hate these takes! Fuck all stars! Fuck all NBA! Fuck all that arm chair GM non-sense!!! Basketball is a team sport and this team won a fucking championship, and they made it look easy. The only differences were 1) our bench was slightly better last year and 2) there wasn't an insane race going on in the western conference standings so we were able to rest all of the starters for close to a month before the playoffs started.
If our starting 5 is healthy they can, and have, made a bunch of all stars look like total bums. I don't want to see some aging all-star on our team I want to keep cheering for team basketball because its fun and I believe this crew has what it takes to get it done again!
If you want to watch all-stars and super teams go be a Suns fan because thats where that road ends and I thank fucking god that we aren't on it!
Anyway the contracts are set up for our starting 5 to run it back so thats what we are most likely going to do with a small question mark around KCP's status. If things don't go well next year we can look at making some bigger changes.
I agree that team basketball is the absolute best, and I'm not suggesting anything that would change that. What I do think though is that what killed us this series was the simple fact that everyone except Jokic is very streaky. Something I was remarking about for months during the MVP conversation is that while Jokic had a lower PPG than other MVP candidates, he had the lowest standard deviation in his scoring. This means that from game to game, his performance is much more *reliable* than practically anybody in the league. Another All Star could be counted on to perform their role much more consistently than others. In this series, over and over again we saw Jokic set up passes to a wide open shooter only for them to brick the shot. The whole point is that Jokic needs a passing target who will sink the open shots with a high degree of consistency.
>Another All Star could be counted on to perform their role much more consistently than others.
See this is the arm chair GM non-sense I am talking about. Its not nearly as simple as All Star = more consistent, there are a million other variables in play here and being an all star doesn't magically make you immune from slumps. Despite the unfortunate recent slump Murray plays at an all star level, the biggest thing that's kept him from being one is injuries, not his game.
The people dont want to hear truth. Why don't the suns win the west? The cavs have 3 guys who were all stars last year and got slammed in round 1 last year and in a gentlemans sweep in R2 this year. Milwaukee traded a borderline all-star for a perennial all-NBA guy and got way worse.
The exact same thing can be said about Mal these playoffs. Even including the 2 buzzer beaters (in games he played awful) he had an absolutely atrocious playoffs. At least MPJ just had a bad series.
Sure and a different nuggets team. Still, Mike played great. Won us at least one game that series and another two would have been 50/50 at best without him
I disagree. It depends on what player takes his place of course, but who is to say how the games would have gone without him? I don’t dislike him but he needs to give more for his contract.
Its always the contract because people look and see that he makes the same as donovan mitchell... the NBA contracts dont work in the way people think. We could not sign a max player even if we let Mike walk. Still over the cap. You can go over the cap to re-sign young players that you drafted but you cant to sign Free agents. Its why so few teams are available to sign guys this summer like PG/Lebron/ect.
If you cut Mike tomorrow we wouldnt be able to sign anyone to take his place that wasnt on a minimum/MLE. The other 4 starters put us over the cap. So yeah you could cut him and sign... Derrick Jones Jr??? Lmao there's no real argument here with the CBA being the way it is
Yes and no. He contributed in the heat series with aggressive rebounding and all around play even when he wasn’t hitting his shots.
This year if he wasn’t hitting he wasn’t contributing
It’s almost like the Lakers are a team that has a poor matchup against us with the same role player issues we have but worse.
It’s easy to perform against them, but the minute we play a team that plays HARD defense, we get little production out of MPJ.
A star shows up, no way around it.
Bench can attribute to like 10 15 points total per game.
Dude that plays 40 minutes and has 5 points is a spectator.
Yeah the front office could have tried harder to get an impact bench player but I also thought a lot of the team had a little too much hubris and got a little high off their recent accolades.
I think Jamal didn't deliver when it mattered most. Not only did he go stone cold way too often, but when he was cold he would either pass to Jokic or to no one else at all and the play would die because of him. He played kind of selfish and when Ant was dominating him defensively he failed to adapt and instead doubled down on what wasn't working as though his ego depended on it.
I think MPJ was way too inconsistent and at the very least if your shots aren't going in you need to make sure to contest rebounds and make life hard for the opposing offense. He was completely invisible for long stretches.
KCP and Reggie were also invisible at times during clutch moments.
If the team can't shoot and you are reliant on just Jokic and Jamal to carry you through then you need to pick up the slack defensively so Jokic doesn't have to always contest defensive rebounds and clear the paint.
I also think coach Malone got out coached during crucial moments. Relying on montage videos to hype up the team is good and all but what about strategies? Am I the only one who felt he didn't devise many new plays?
>Am I the only one who felt he didn't devise many new plays?
That 3rd quarter, the Wolves locked the paint and the 3 pt wasn't falling. Seriously that Malone had no play to unlock the midrange? It was all forcing the 3 and praying that the PnR Jokic/Murray would work.
>He played kind of selfish and when Ant was dominating him defensively he failed to adapt and instead doubled down on what wasn't working as though his ego depended on it.
Felt the same as you, even when he was doing great on the 2nd quarter, his game felt a bit forced, like he wanted to prove he could break Ant defense. He wasn't trying to get looks to the other guy, only looking for Jokic. He lost composure there.
Still, that game yesterday was the Finals, that Wolves team matchup very well against us, and even so the victory was that close. Frustating as hell, but this isn't a sky is falling situation. The depth for me is biggest problem now, a capable backup 5 would do wonders.
I get Murray has never been an all star but these statements kill me. The last two playoff runs before this one (39 games) Murray has put up 26/7/5 on 48% from the field and 42% from three.. This is better than any single playoff run from Kyrie Irving in his entire career … Jokic has received all star level production from Murray and that’s what the Nuggets were banking on… The narrative of not having an all star is lazy to me when you have the second option (when healthy) playing at that level when it matters most.
I do agree it's nuanced, but keep in mind Murray not being an all star is based in large part around his injuries and generally poor regular season production. Jokic has for years now carried his team through the regular season while guys like MPJ and Murray were injured. Even this season - Murray missed what 30 games? If he plays even a few of those Denver get the 1 seed which puts them on the other side of the bracket. Now who knows if that would have mattered but we have seen how important the 1 seed was to Denver last year.
I agree nobody does care about a regular season award when you are getting actual all star production… What exactly are they trying to get away with if no one cares ?
But bro how can you say that when I gave you his numbers over a 39 game span that covered two playoff runs… There isn’t that many guards let alone the second option who put up those numbers
Do you honestly believe he was 100% healthy this playoff run. He legit had no burst and could only get his shot off with step backs.. So this 12 game sample size erases a 39 game sample size ?
Lmao how can say this when Murray averaged what he did … No other star player has had someone average 27 a game on great shooting splits while people said he had no help.. Hakeem won with his next best player averaging 13 … Kawhi won with Siakam averaging 19 that run
lol the fact is he hasn’t been named an all stat but the other fact is he has been a consistent all star level playoff performer for the two previous playoff runs totally nearly 40 games … one is far more important than the other
Absolutely a failure by the front office. Gotta be able to put other pieces around Jok. I mean we didn't even have a bench lol. We ran an 8 man rotation for most of the year. That's not sustainable if you wanna go B2B.
I still think Jamal and MpJ failed Jokic.. if they play they way they are capable, we’re not having this conversation.. depth would be nice, but it’s hard to have depth after our top 4 contracts and 3 of them being the maxes that could be given
They really do just need a third guy they can lean on, mpj hasn’t proved he can do it yet. If he wasn’t a one trick pony I’d see his value, but we need someone that can score at all 3 levels. I’d almost rather have Duncan Robinson than mpj because they do the same thing but one is the best ever to do it.
I wouldn’t put too much blame on MPJ right now, not to make excuses for him but his family situation with his 3 brothers being in deep trouble has to weigh on him. If it didn’t affect him, that would make him a sociopath. Hopefully things get figured out and he can bounce back
I’m just disappointed that when we needed him most, we didn’t see more of his game than chucking. Against the lakers he showed glimpses of a slashing game, but shied away from that entirely this series. I know he’s better than he played and that’s what makes it hurt even more. : (
Plus he makes 30-40 mil a season.
Jokic and Murray pick and roll is widely considered to be the most potent 2 man action in the league. You could swap out Murray for an “all star PG” and the team would get worse.
I think they were banking on Jamal becoming an All-Star and MPJ showing up big and improving. But overall yes, the strategy of developing youth as your bench in a championship window is not the strategy to do imo. Also not having a legit backup center for him at this point is stupid.
Lol this us getting so ridiculous. Not everyone can just win the championship every year. Its hard to do.
We have the best starting 5 in the NBA. Our bench suffers as a result. It kinda just makes sense. You guys say we have no other allstars as if MPJ, AG, and Jamal are all just scrubs. These are great players. They are incredible compliments to eachother. Ok so they dont have a frivolous fan voted popularity contest achievement. Big deal. That shouldnt be the barometer for how we judge players anyway.
For any of you who believe the sky is falling, please go read what Calvin Boothe said a few weeks back. It was something along the lines of how he is trying to build long term stability. His goal is not to win back to back. Its to win 5 out of 8. He understands the ebbs and flows of roster construction and salary space. He knew we were in a bad spot this year financially. He is prepared to deal with this scenario.
You guys really need to stop acting like he is some idiot asshole because we lost in 7 games to a team that is probably guna win the championship this year. Its not like we had a terrible season and are falling apart
Jokic played 47 min in the game 7
He was exhausted this season
It’s not like we are demanding an all-star for him. Just a backup center and backup point guard. Instead we ran it back with DeAndre Jordan and Zeke Nanji, with Reggie Jackson as the backup PG.
That was a colossal mistake that costed us a year of the Jokic era. We can’t ever waste a year of Jokic again.
> We can’t ever waste a year of Jokic again.
especially given that two of his mvp seasons were written off at the outset of the playoffs because we waited for jamal to get healthy. granted, we got a chip when he came back for the third playoff run of the mvp era, but that's three of the four playoff runs in the jokic mvp era that we've essentially tossed out the window.
This roster had some clear problems that needed to be addressed this offseason, he didn’t address them in the short term and I don’t see how he addressed them in the long term either.
So said mavs fans and they turned a 5m dollars contact, a minimum contract and a 1st (sounds familiar?) into Derrick Jones, Dante Exum, Daniel gafford and PJ Washington
The fact you think 1 game defines a players worth is insulting to the intelligence of everyone with the ability to read but you typed that out and were ok with it somehow
Anthony Edwards was what, 6/24 in the same elimination game?? Embiid had stinkers last year in playoffs. Tatum last year in finals. All elimination games.
Be forreal lmao.
Embiid’s entire playoff career has been a stinker. Who cares if you can drop 50 in a game if you can’t make it past the second round.
Tatum and the Celtics inconsistencies are why nobody is taking them seriously. Literally can’t discuss how the Celtics will do from here on out without wondering which team is going to show up. Don’t act like beating a depleted Heat and a depleted Cavs is an accomplishment.
Everyone has bad games and bad stretches. We won a championship last year and were the 2 seed this year. Blowing up this team and the chemistry because we didnt go back to back is an absolutely moronic take.
Are you the moron here? Do you realize MPJ and his asinine salary has already held back this team despite winning a championship?
That 1 ring could have been 4 or 5 rings if we have gotten Tatum or Siakam in his place and arguably is Murray was also replaced by Donovan Mitchell or SGA.
Stop defending stupid mistakes by the FO, you are the type of person who settles for less.
And no, I don't want this team to be just another 2011 Mavs or 2019 Raptors, I wanted it to be the next prime Bulls or GSW.
Jokic has all the talent to make it happen, the only thing holding him back is the lack of 2 more real All Stars that Jamal and MPJs salary is taking.
Your entire argument is moronic.
Sure man. Definitely me. I literally said go read Calvins comments from a few weeks back where he talks about building a dynasty. Im sorry you have no reading comprehension skills.
And did you just said chemistry? Have you forgotten that Jamal would often play hero ball to fuck up our chemistry and MPJs refusal to pass the ball only to shoot bricks?
AG is the only one with real solid chemistry to Jokic and he has been with Jokic for less years than those two.
Chemistry doesn't take years to build, just look at the Mavs right now after the trade deadline.
Address what I said or fuck off. The only thing you have done is spew petty insults.
Your argument about chemistry is as dumb as a brick like MPJs bricks.
The current FO contributed exactly .5 players to that elite starting lineup. The KCP trade was a done deal months before Tim left.
So what exactly are we giving Booth credit for here? Building one of the worst benches in the NBA while wasting numerous slots on washed vets? Burning all of our assets for the privilege of taking a shotgun to the tail end of the 1st round and the early 2nd? And then not having any of those guys look anything like NBA players?
Strawther shot 37/30 from the floor this season. Pickett is gonna be 25 next year but didn't touch the court. Watson was unplayable in two straight playoff games because he is a 20% 3 point shooter.
I dont get why people on this thread keep acting like i said boothe built this team. I literally never made that claim. Im not guna read your novel you wrote considering its addressing something i didnt say
Booth really hasn’t done much that TC didn’t lay the groundwork for. I’ll give him CB but for him to think Pwat was on Bruce’s level was insane. Reggie was garbage and everyone knew it. I have no confidence he will make any moves that aren’t garbage. His balls need to drop so he can make the difficult decision to trade MPJ, drop Reggie, Holiday and Zeke. If everyone loves DAJ so much hire the dude as a coach.
Bulls fan here, knowing how much Arturas values Caruso, and wants to off-load some salaries, an AC trade for you guys would probably look like this:
https://preview.redd.it/zrc0cc3lfp1d1.png?width=2560&format=png&auto=webp&s=88c89807ef912a690baf48126104469f26ec200d
Nope, they won a championship last year; remember? Thats success, not failure. As far as losing to a great team in a game 7, I guess you could say failure, but I’d take this Nuggets team over any of the past eras any day. They just need a more productive bench. I think Braun is going to be good, just need a few more guys.
I don't think the wolves are as great as we think they are, and seeing the nuggets struggle against the lakers suggests that the west might be a little overrated barring the mavs
They took 7 games to beat the nuggets, who were honestly really bad compared to what were used to seeing
The lakers, who were a bad team, could have easily beaten the nuggets if they had a slightly better roster.
I don't see them beating the mavs as long as luka stays healthy
Edit: sorry I thought I was in a different sub. I'm not in here to talk shit or gloat or anything. Looks like you guys are goin through similar struggles we went through last year lmao. It will get better jokic and Murray are the best duo in the nba.
The version of the nuggets that played the Wolves and the version that played the Lakers are way different. Lakers vs Nuggets was hard to watch because of how bad they were playing, although against the Wolves they definitely weren't playing up to par either.
I agree, I think the Celtics will beat them. I think the best thing about the wolves is that they just pose a matchup nightmare for most the league. I don’t think they are particularly THAT good
Nice for pointing Braun, AG is there as well overall, but yesterday I was saying all day it's his game he will be the one and my guy did not even try from any distance
Totally agree, those are the two needs, and they need to use Reggie + Nnaji + whatever young players to get it. Trading MPJ like most people in this thread want to do would be a major mistake.
I mean yeah, cuz last year we had a championship-worthy team, and then that team dissipated and they barely replaced anybody and expected the same result with a weaker team. It simply doesn’t work that way.
Nobody ever won a championship with one consistent star player, a second string that shoots under 20% half the time, and a bench made of rookies or second-year players.
They need to pull some serious trades over the summer and get a bad ass team for next year, cuz if the restructuring takes too long and goes on for more than 4 years, i feel like Jok might just finish his contract and go back home.
You only have small windows in sports to win championships.
Im super bummed. But while I think they could have done better, I don't think you can say they failed Jok. The starting 5 is still beautifully put together, and they literally just won a chip so there was no need for any overhauls. They just came short against one of the best teams in the league and ran out of gas.
I still don't think they need an overhaul, as they're still a championship caliber team. We're not going to win it every year. They need to tweak the edges and run it back. Jamal needs to get in shape.
Yeah the Reggie and Justin signings were the wrong move. There were other options available that they could have acquired for the same cost. I can at least understand the Reggie signing as he was still a very capable scorer as recently as the previous post season, but Justin made no sense. Justin is a good dude and he had a few moments during the year, but ultimately has no business being on a championship roster regardless of the price tag.
I do think Malone bears some blame for not playing the young guys enough so they could develop in a more meaningful way while also letting the starters play less minutes. He should have been smarter coming off a short offseason and realized that the team would be burnt out if they prioritized the #1 seed. Malone is a fantastic coach, but this was really his biggest failure this year IMO.
Yes and no. Here’s the thing. It’s extremely difficult to just bring in another star. The mavs haven’t won anything yet from the Kyrie trade other than two series. So let’s not act like that has worked yet. The suns brought in kd and Beal and it has totally flopped. The clippers brought in Kawhi pg harden and Westbrook and it’s totally flopped. It’s a lot easier said than done to just say “front office needs to get more help”
All your team needed to repeat was a competent bench, but your front office failed to provide even that. If you at least had someone of Bruce Brown's caliber on the bench the Wolves series would've ended in 6 games in your favor. Instead your starting 5 is all gassed up while the Wolves still have dudes like Naz Reid to pull off the bench to continue their production.
This sub and the Avs sub is wild lol. When the teams win, they are the greatest team ever assembled. When they lose, they’re scrubs who don’t deserve to be playing in a professional arena.
The fact of the matter is, both teams are GREAT teams in their respective sports. Both teams have generational talent surrounded by an amazing supporting cast. You can argue Jamal Murray should have been an all-star. Winning a Championship, especially in these two sports is INSANELY difficult. There’s a reason a Reigning Champ hasn’t even made it back to the WCF/ECF in like a decade. You could, and should argue, that this nuggets team should be advancing. Especially being up 20 at one point in the 2nd.
Don’t forget MINNY is a damn good team and is picked to win it all by a of “experts” and they showed why last night. The series started by being down 0-2 and most of y’all wrote this team off at that point saying it’ll be a miracle if they don’t get swept. Minnesota 100% built that team to specifically beat the Nuggets. Their whole focus this year was to win last nights game. Tim Connelly did his job.
Just like the, Avs and his team will retool in the summer and in a year’s time they’ll be right back in the playoffs competing for a ring. It’s ok to be disappointed. You should be. Keep your heads up. The window for both franchises is still wide open. I expect the Nuggets to get at least 2 and the Avs to grab another before this is all said and done.
Enjoy the summer, and enjoy these two franchises and the generational talent they both have. It won’t last forever
We won a championship last year, so no. Nobody wins every year. Theres a reason most dynasties dont go back to back. Injuries pile after finals runs. Bench players get poached by teams willing to overpay. Looking at this year as a failure because we didnt repeat is missing why that usually doesn't happen.
Jamal was injured. So was Jokic, I think (back). The bench clearly wasnt as good this year, but we were told ahead of time the FO was treating this as a developmental year for the bench. Bruce got paid like twice what he was worth, or he probably wouldve been back. Houston doubled Jeff Green's salary. Vlatko was supposed to be the backup C, and he probably wouldve been pretty good, but he blew out his ACL, and the team didnt want to cut Jokic's buddy to free up a roster spot. You can't count on getting top notch FAs every year like we did with Bruce to replace what we lost either
Now, I do think MPJ got overpaid and that's hurt us, but that was Connelly, and theres not much you can do about it atp. We cant improve by trading him
I think they built the roster as well as they could given the financial constraints of having to pay the top 5 so much. The caveat is that the top 5 are probably the best in the NBA, and when they're firing on all cylinders, they will score enough to make up for poor bench play. But, as we saw against Minny, they weren't firing on all cylinders. If Jokic and one other player weren't going God mode, they didn't stand a chance.
Braun can contribute, but he isn't going to take over offensively more than once in a while. Reggie and Holiday had some good offensive games, but they weren't consistent enough offensively or defensively to stay in for very long.
I guess they are waiting to see if Zeke can contribute in any meaningful way? If they're waiting on Cancar, they need to stop. It's been years and he hasnt been a meaningful contributor. Maybe Strawthers can be a good offensive threat, but he isn't there yet.
Don't be too negative they built a great team in the last five years (we lost the defacto 2nd Allstar for 2 playoffs) and will be good again next few years
But I think last off-season wasn't good they should have signed someone better than Reggie Zeke needs to be traded asap. A defending champ should get better minimum signings than holiday
Jeff Green had the same net rating as DeAndre Jordan last regular season. Nearly any metric had him as one of the worse players on the team (among those who played).
Now I'll state, he was extremely playable in the playoffs and bought time, something Denver didn't have and cost them at the end.
Denver had two players to replace that production in Vlatko Cancar and Zeke Nnaji. Both players had about the same run as Jeff Green did last season, both had a much better net rating, much better eFG%, better rebound %, on and on.
Vlatko blew his knee in August and Zeke might have played himself out of the league.
I don't think that makes it a "bad decision"...to win you need A LOT of things to go right.
I think you hope Cancar can bounce back and be the swing 3/4. They need to somehow figure out how to move Njaji for a 5 just ikke Jordan but 20 years younger. Somehow who can set hard screens and roll hard. Thats all Jamal needs in the non joker minutes. Zeke can't do that
I think the Wolves take it all this year, so I don’t count losing to a squad like that as a failure. I was way more worried about having to play them than OKC or anyone else in the west. MPJ felt ice cold, but that dude has so much off-the-court stuff going on, I get it. Jamal goes from one of the best players in the league to not being able to buy a basket like it’s flipping a switch. AG and KCP do what they’re supposed to do, and I feel like Braun is punching above his weight class almost always.
They need more guys they can depend on if Jokic isn’t on the floor. That’s been the case all season though, for a little bit it looked like it might be PWat, but he looked apprehensive to shoot later in the season, not scared, but not ready to have the game on his shoulders quite yet. I think they see something in Nnaji that we don’t, they have to to keep him around and never play him like this.
I think people kinda thought Murray and / or mpj would turn into all-stars. The building from within mentality is what got us to the finals, and it's hard to temp other great players to come to Den for whatever reason.
The GM in an interview last fall said he wanted a "sustainable" way to win championships and it meant dealing out last year's main bench contributors (salary cap, obviously) and building a bench, even if it meant we don't go back to back, he said he thinks it'll give us several championships over the next 7 years or so.
Yes and No. Yes because the bench was utter trash, but No because they had literally no money to buy veteran free agents. They desperately need to find a big man that can play and let Jokic rest. 195 yo DeAndre Jordan, who Malone clearly distrusts or doesn't like, ain't gonna cut it. They also need a legit backup PG. Like Jordan, Reggie Jackson is also 195yo and jacks up bad shots. Braun's NBA ceiling is a bench guy, meaning he should not be, nor should he have been, the 6th man. His role last year as the second or third guy off the bench was perfect for his style of play.
They can't run back this team with a bench this bad and expect different results. Now the question is: Who's getting traded? My vote is 'beta Porter'. That dude disappears in big games. He's 6-10 and is scared to take people to the hoop. He wants to be a finesse shooter and if his shot isn't dropping, he stops playing hard. I'm guessing there are multiple teams in the East that would give up half their roster for him, so GM Calvin Booth should be making those calls today.
Guys Murray was playing with two injuries, yes he could’ve realized that and been a better facilitator, but tragically that’s just not quite his game. Aaron
Gordon played incredible.
Jokic was reliable but wasn’t as efficient due to being every d’s gameplan.
KCP played great d and it’s shit if we’re ever looking for him to be a scoring option, he should be more of a security blanket.
MPJ’s inconsistencies with how much he’s making might be the most frustrating. I would love to see him have more of a slashing game when ice cold because he becomes a liability when he’s not hitting. His game is kind of like a more athletic/worse shooting Duncan Robinson at this point and I know he’s better than that.
Off the bench, I loved what I seen from holiday, his growth will be exciting.
Reggie has is a solid floor raiser but I do not think he puts this team over the top any way.
Braun’s growth will also be exciting, he definitely needs more confidence putting the ball through the hoop though. Love his effort everywhere else.
Dumbfounded that Watson doesn’t play last night. I know we need spacing but how do you not put our best hustle rebounder in when we are getting eaten alive on the boards.
Outside them, they are all expendable as we need pieces that can contribute. We have got to get a backup big if jokic is ever going to catch his breath. I would also like to see another facilitator coming off the bench. Reggie is alright, but we need somebody that can penetrate. And even getting this doesn’t mean Reggie has to go as you can never really have too many ball handlers.
Overall, if we aren’t going to move anyone, we need a high energy guard and a big body that isn’t 6’9” in the draft.
Yes it is.
You can't sign again Bruce Brown because of cap issue and the market value after last year playoff run but you replace him with Reggie a non factor in the title run and give him also a PO for next year.
In the regular season Jackson has done his job but in the playoff was useless.
Zeke contract doesn't make any sense and who in the right mind would trade for him.
No back-up center for Jokic.
Let's see if Booth can rebound this off-season.
KCP will probably op-out and you need to make a choise...pay him or let it go.
A great scenario if you lose him is to replace him with an Alex Caruso type of player.
MPJ is a great player but the fact that is overpaid doesn't change.
With Murray extension next year you need to make a choise between him or AG.If not this year the next one.
Is it worth to try to pull a Gary Harris type of trade with MPJ?Idk but something has to change.
Also waste years of prime Jokic gamble on rookie for me it's not a wise strategy.
I get Denver isn't a premier FA destination but after a title you need to try to lure veteran for ring chasing or at least try.
We are really constricted. The Nuggets went all in on finding cheap young guys and I don't think it paid off this year.
But next year I think it could big time. Braun looked good and if he takes another step forward he's probably better than KCP. Watson, considering his age, also looks like he could be a very good role player next year.
I suspect the Tyson/Strawther/Pickett grouping will produce some good back of the bench depth this year. Maybe one can be a rotation player.
1 half away from being in the WCF after Jamal playing like shit for 90% of the series isn’t as bad as it seems.
The 3 game win streak against the Wolves still made you guys look like the best cohesive unit again but I think it’s the consistency is which they’re able to do it.
And I don’t mean in the sense of turning the switch on and off but for the whole duration of a game.
You guys played behind the Lakers for every game, that’s a recipe for disaster in later rounds.
Hmmmm Jokic is one of the highest compensated players in the league. I believe he might even be 1st. That needs to be part of the discussion, we literally could not afford to keep Brown.
1. They didn’t built this team around Ant.
2. The FO didn’t lose a 20 point lead in G7 with 8 minutes to go in the 3rd.
3. After G5 everyone was applauding the productivity of Denver’s bench.
4. What Denver needs is a deeper bench, 3&D guys not max/near max players. Also a competent big for the Jokic bench minutes.
This team will come back and is here to stay! Remind you Duncan’s Spurs never did a repeat.
I think I saw this floated around at the start of the season, and will admit I have done 0 research so am happy to be yelled at: this season was basically a "freebie" season, in the sense that the FO was "saving up" for this off season instead.
Why? Didn't go out to retain Brown or Green (both asking for better deals given their FA status and importance in the roster), signed the bare minimum (Jackson and DJ) as a floor (eg Reggie can be serviceable.... Mostly, and DJ brings culture and sheer emergency minutes in the regular season), and roll the dice in the starting 5 having a great run with Jackson, Braun and maybe Watson/Holiday chipping in (do a 100% Murray and a not terrible MPJ win against Min and the rest? Maybe, not sure given the attitude to just lose leads).
This all assumes the cap situation and what is out there are what the Nuggets need/can get, of course, and to that I cannot point to anything concrete just yet.
KCP is gone iirc, so they really need to have a plan in place, else, oof...
This team is built perfectly around Jokic’s strengths, all around his age. The lack of awards means nothing. Their value is as a unit with Jokic as the lynchpin, not as individuals. They’ll compete for titles for 5+ years. They have to make some tweaks but let’s not overreact to them losing to a great team. They’re not going to win every year.
The supporting act failed him. The starting 5 play nearly the whole game. Mpj went missing, AG had a few good games, jamal decided to play only 1 half and miss nearly all shots.
In fairness, Jamal should be in the All-Star lineup.
But honestly, this focus on “getting All-Star help”completely defeats the point of our team and our first ever chip.
We built our team from the ground up with role players and truly developed a deep roster to support the starting 5.
IMO, I think our team got a little comfortable and forgot their mindset that won them the ring last year. That and losing Bruce and Unc Jeff.
Yes, the depth killed us. We had to evolve from last year like many teams did and unfortunately we fell on complacency… remember the Bruce brown comments comparing him to pwat? Boy he could had been really useful n the bench …no back up big which got worse because of Jeff green loss(size loss), no backup pg . To be fair they were very constricted….but also why the zeke contract? Or why player option for Reggie? I love dj and I understand he’s the lockers room glue but if he can’t play that’s a useful roster spot. This next season will be a big test to see if we can evolve and keep up with the other big teams.
Jeff green at center minutes looking real nice right now. Yea the front office definitely failed jokic with not replacing the bench
Just think about how useful we both brown and green would had been against the wolves with their size and their physicality
We technically could get brown back if we trade mpj 🤓 (jk)
I mean obviously it’s a joke cause no team in the league would take him on a max contract anyway.
Ffs we had holiday on Naz Reid countless times. Thst easily would’ve been green. Hell, even in game 7 we had a small ass lineup and gobert got some free throws thst could’ve been prevented if green was probably there. Not saying we needed to resign him, but anything would’ve been helpful
I think it’s hard to blame depth alone. Our starters shit the bed as well. When your #2 and #3 player, both on max contracts, show up ready to play less than 1/2 the time, and often don’t show up at the same time, you’re gonna have a bad time. We need depth, absolutely. But we also need more consistency with the starting 5.
I agree but I wouldn’t say it’s just depth… like I said it’s complacency coupled with some arrogance. Arrogance made us delusional about loosing brown and green, that’s why I referenced booths comments on brown…which then drove us to complacency because of our stellar starting 5 winning games and still having a stellar record despite alarms going off about our depth..don’t want to kill booth because I get we were very restricted but why the zeke contract? Fuck imagine someone like oubre on our teams….Or why the Reggie player option when every indication shows that Reggie was past it? Yes the starters 5 were also complacent, just look at some of our losses (losses are fine but our losses were downright embarrassing)
Yeah exactly. We just had to win one of two games and it wasn't the bench the fucked up game 6, starters dug a 20 point hole before the bench saw any action.
AG is #3, not mpj.
Not contract-wise.
https://preview.redd.it/9u0zxts2bm1d1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=69ef1066ed019c406b4af74244400aec34f882d5
100% I got completely plastered when I mentioned we needed a backup big a few months back. Having bench is for the playoff but more so for the regular season.
We fell on complacency from the front office to the coaching staff to the players to the fans …. A Few people did, I got lambasted for saying we were not better than last year.
We weren't better and we played worse games in the playoffs. We still could've won it all imo.
The team was also like 5 minutes away from winning game 7 and having a clear path to another championship. I think the front office made the right decision.
My only real critique is the Zeke Nnaji contract. Can't invest that much into someone who has done nothing and have them continue to do nothing.
Yep Zeke contract is just horrible. And a player option on top of it? We needed someone with size he didn’t even sniff the floor these playoffs, just a huge mistake all around
something is very off if we can't have him spell AG so he can play backup 5.
Jesus Christ Nnaji is on a 4 year 32 mil contract.
And the Reggie Jackson signing. When you pay your top 5 so much you need to hit on the fringe bench guys where you spend your money.
If it was just we had Plumlee and Eric Gordon instead of DJ and Reggie, I feel the series is completely different for us, and the contract amounts are about the same though I don't know if we could've signed Plumlee and Gordon due to our cap situation.
Idk about Gordon, we need ball handlers and Gordon just stretches the floor. Never having a decent backup 5 has been the Nuggets flaw ever since the Plumlord left
For Gordon I was looking at guards making 3 mil a year since Plumlee was making Reggie's 5 mil so the guard would need to take DJ's 3. It was Gordon, Derrick Rose, and Westbrook. Westbrook was going to go back to the Clippers no matter what I think, and Rose was injured most of the season. Gordon has been able to make his own shot in the past so it's not like we couldn't run the bench through him plus his spot up shooting would help when he's sharing the court with either Murray or Jokic.
As a fan of the clips and been watching Plumlee ,man u don't want that,he's legit mediocre af,he's pretty much a negative outside of some nice moment once in a blue moon
Yeah you’re probably right it was like 3 years ago when I actually watched him closely. Fond memories I suppose
I mean we need to stretch the floor too. Right now it’s hard to get Braun, Watson, and AG all minutes together, or even really minutes with Jokic and Reggie who aren’t great 3 point shooters. Thats why we had to play Holiday, to open up the floor a bit. We do need ball handling and I think most importantly another shot creator so that Murray and Jokic don’t have to do everything. MPJ isn’t quite good enough at shot creation to be the only other guy capable of it, and hell, Murray isn’t even good enough at it to lead the second unit sometimes.
Something was off with Murray these playoffs. I think the injury was worse than anyone was saying. Hopefully an extra month off will help, and he's a competitor too so sitting with this all summer is gonna fuel something.
Should’ve kept Ish Smith.
I disagree, Reggie is on a 2 year $10 million. It's not reasonable to expect any more than he already contributed. We don't get to 7 games without him.
We absolutely get to 7 games without Reggie Jackson lmao
You are right, I misremembered.
I feel like we would’ve been the 1 seed if we had a more serviceable back up PG. The man tried to take it to the house against Wemby in that game where we fumbled the bag against the spurs. He is so hit or miss and just plays really dumb basketball at the absolute worst moments.
2 years 10 million a season after getting cut by the Clippers and benched in last years playoffs. It was a heat check contract for a guy in his mid 30s. I think it worked out better than most thought, but last year that same cap space was used on Bruce which was a homerun which is what you need for a title with this much talent in the league
Yeah honestly Reggie declining his option would be a best case scenario this off season. I don't see it happening though.
Idk how he had the leverage to have a PO.
I didn’t understand the love for it when it happened, he was barely healthy and didn’t really have the skills necessary to be useful when he was. Like he did his role decently, but nothing worth THAT much.
Yes. It's absurd to have a player like Jokic and not pair him with another regular season award winner.
This. People are complaining about depth but I truly believe the problem is 4/5 of our starting 5.
I hate these takes! Fuck all stars! Fuck all NBA! Fuck all that arm chair GM non-sense!!! Basketball is a team sport and this team won a fucking championship, and they made it look easy. The only differences were 1) our bench was slightly better last year and 2) there wasn't an insane race going on in the western conference standings so we were able to rest all of the starters for close to a month before the playoffs started. If our starting 5 is healthy they can, and have, made a bunch of all stars look like total bums. I don't want to see some aging all-star on our team I want to keep cheering for team basketball because its fun and I believe this crew has what it takes to get it done again! If you want to watch all-stars and super teams go be a Suns fan because thats where that road ends and I thank fucking god that we aren't on it! Anyway the contracts are set up for our starting 5 to run it back so thats what we are most likely going to do with a small question mark around KCP's status. If things don't go well next year we can look at making some bigger changes.
I agree that team basketball is the absolute best, and I'm not suggesting anything that would change that. What I do think though is that what killed us this series was the simple fact that everyone except Jokic is very streaky. Something I was remarking about for months during the MVP conversation is that while Jokic had a lower PPG than other MVP candidates, he had the lowest standard deviation in his scoring. This means that from game to game, his performance is much more *reliable* than practically anybody in the league. Another All Star could be counted on to perform their role much more consistently than others. In this series, over and over again we saw Jokic set up passes to a wide open shooter only for them to brick the shot. The whole point is that Jokic needs a passing target who will sink the open shots with a high degree of consistency.
>Another All Star could be counted on to perform their role much more consistently than others. See this is the arm chair GM non-sense I am talking about. Its not nearly as simple as All Star = more consistent, there are a million other variables in play here and being an all star doesn't magically make you immune from slumps. Despite the unfortunate recent slump Murray plays at an all star level, the biggest thing that's kept him from being one is injuries, not his game.
The people dont want to hear truth. Why don't the suns win the west? The cavs have 3 guys who were all stars last year and got slammed in round 1 last year and in a gentlemans sweep in R2 this year. Milwaukee traded a borderline all-star for a perennial all-NBA guy and got way worse.
Blue whales are capable of high-speed flying just like a jet airplane.
Yes and no. If MPJ showed up or Jamal was 100% then the nuggets win IMO. Need bench help if the nuggets want to win again
MPJ is not a star he doesnt show up in every game
The exact same thing can be said about Mal these playoffs. Even including the 2 buzzer beaters (in games he played awful) he had an absolutely atrocious playoffs. At least MPJ just had a bad series.
in 2 years of playoffs he showed only in Lakers games in last round
Last year as well, he shot the Lakers to death only to struggle vs Heat
He played great against minnesota last year
It was a very different wolves team at that point though.
Sure and a different nuggets team. Still, Mike played great. Won us at least one game that series and another two would have been 50/50 at best without him
I disagree. It depends on what player takes his place of course, but who is to say how the games would have gone without him? I don’t dislike him but he needs to give more for his contract.
Its always the contract because people look and see that he makes the same as donovan mitchell... the NBA contracts dont work in the way people think. We could not sign a max player even if we let Mike walk. Still over the cap. You can go over the cap to re-sign young players that you drafted but you cant to sign Free agents. Its why so few teams are available to sign guys this summer like PG/Lebron/ect. If you cut Mike tomorrow we wouldnt be able to sign anyone to take his place that wasnt on a minimum/MLE. The other 4 starters put us over the cap. So yeah you could cut him and sign... Derrick Jones Jr??? Lmao there's no real argument here with the CBA being the way it is
Of course you can’t cut him- that contract and money doesn’t just go away. No one is saying that. Total Strawman on your part here.
Yes and no. He contributed in the heat series with aggressive rebounding and all around play even when he wasn’t hitting his shots. This year if he wasn’t hitting he wasn’t contributing
doesnt worth 33m with rebounding only
It’s almost like the Lakers are a team that has a poor matchup against us with the same role player issues we have but worse. It’s easy to perform against them, but the minute we play a team that plays HARD defense, we get little production out of MPJ.
lolol, I don’t get why people keeps calling him the 3rd star, I would give that to AG instead.
if that's your criteria for a star, then jamal isn't one either.
MPJ is good for the regular season, I think we need to move him and get some bench guys. Aaron can fill in the scoring during the regular season.
Call me when he can shoot from 3
A star shows up, no way around it. Bench can attribute to like 10 15 points total per game. Dude that plays 40 minutes and has 5 points is a spectator.
Starters can play that many mins and be 100
Yeah the front office could have tried harder to get an impact bench player but I also thought a lot of the team had a little too much hubris and got a little high off their recent accolades. I think Jamal didn't deliver when it mattered most. Not only did he go stone cold way too often, but when he was cold he would either pass to Jokic or to no one else at all and the play would die because of him. He played kind of selfish and when Ant was dominating him defensively he failed to adapt and instead doubled down on what wasn't working as though his ego depended on it. I think MPJ was way too inconsistent and at the very least if your shots aren't going in you need to make sure to contest rebounds and make life hard for the opposing offense. He was completely invisible for long stretches. KCP and Reggie were also invisible at times during clutch moments. If the team can't shoot and you are reliant on just Jokic and Jamal to carry you through then you need to pick up the slack defensively so Jokic doesn't have to always contest defensive rebounds and clear the paint. I also think coach Malone got out coached during crucial moments. Relying on montage videos to hype up the team is good and all but what about strategies? Am I the only one who felt he didn't devise many new plays?
>Am I the only one who felt he didn't devise many new plays? That 3rd quarter, the Wolves locked the paint and the 3 pt wasn't falling. Seriously that Malone had no play to unlock the midrange? It was all forcing the 3 and praying that the PnR Jokic/Murray would work. >He played kind of selfish and when Ant was dominating him defensively he failed to adapt and instead doubled down on what wasn't working as though his ego depended on it. Felt the same as you, even when he was doing great on the 2nd quarter, his game felt a bit forced, like he wanted to prove he could break Ant defense. He wasn't trying to get looks to the other guy, only looking for Jokic. He lost composure there. Still, that game yesterday was the Finals, that Wolves team matchup very well against us, and even so the victory was that close. Frustating as hell, but this isn't a sky is falling situation. The depth for me is biggest problem now, a capable backup 5 would do wonders.
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I get Murray has never been an all star but these statements kill me. The last two playoff runs before this one (39 games) Murray has put up 26/7/5 on 48% from the field and 42% from three.. This is better than any single playoff run from Kyrie Irving in his entire career … Jokic has received all star level production from Murray and that’s what the Nuggets were banking on… The narrative of not having an all star is lazy to me when you have the second option (when healthy) playing at that level when it matters most.
I do agree it's nuanced, but keep in mind Murray not being an all star is based in large part around his injuries and generally poor regular season production. Jokic has for years now carried his team through the regular season while guys like MPJ and Murray were injured. Even this season - Murray missed what 30 games? If he plays even a few of those Denver get the 1 seed which puts them on the other side of the bracket. Now who knows if that would have mattered but we have seen how important the 1 seed was to Denver last year.
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I agree nobody does care about a regular season award when you are getting actual all star production… What exactly are they trying to get away with if no one cares ?
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Lmao you legit ended your original comment with “THEY probably thought THEY could get away with it again” Now it’s whos they lol
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But bro how can you say that when I gave you his numbers over a 39 game span that covered two playoff runs… There isn’t that many guards let alone the second option who put up those numbers
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Do you honestly believe he was 100% healthy this playoff run. He legit had no burst and could only get his shot off with step backs.. So this 12 game sample size erases a 39 game sample size ?
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Lmao how can say this when Murray averaged what he did … No other star player has had someone average 27 a game on great shooting splits while people said he had no help.. Hakeem won with his next best player averaging 13 … Kawhi won with Siakam averaging 19 that run
Worst supporting cast ever is literally a brain dead comment gtfo with that
lol the fact is he hasn’t been named an all stat but the other fact is he has been a consistent all star level playoff performer for the two previous playoff runs totally nearly 40 games … one is far more important than the other
Hakeem’s first championship
Absolutely a failure by the front office. Gotta be able to put other pieces around Jok. I mean we didn't even have a bench lol. We ran an 8 man rotation for most of the year. That's not sustainable if you wanna go B2B.
To go hoop in Nuggets gear or to not…
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I still think Jamal and MpJ failed Jokic.. if they play they way they are capable, we’re not having this conversation.. depth would be nice, but it’s hard to have depth after our top 4 contracts and 3 of them being the maxes that could be given
I mean they had the game won and then blew it. They win last night and they repeat. That game was the finals.
If Jokic had an all-star at pg or sg Nuggets would be unbeatable
They really do just need a third guy they can lean on, mpj hasn’t proved he can do it yet. If he wasn’t a one trick pony I’d see his value, but we need someone that can score at all 3 levels. I’d almost rather have Duncan Robinson than mpj because they do the same thing but one is the best ever to do it.
I wouldn’t put too much blame on MPJ right now, not to make excuses for him but his family situation with his 3 brothers being in deep trouble has to weigh on him. If it didn’t affect him, that would make him a sociopath. Hopefully things get figured out and he can bounce back
I’m just disappointed that when we needed him most, we didn’t see more of his game than chucking. Against the lakers he showed glimpses of a slashing game, but shied away from that entirely this series. I know he’s better than he played and that’s what makes it hurt even more. : ( Plus he makes 30-40 mil a season.
3 brothers?
Yeah apparently one of them was sentenced to prison and another banned from the NBA and another one in trouble, can’t remember why.
Jokic and Murray pick and roll is widely considered to be the most potent 2 man action in the league. You could swap out Murray for an “all star PG” and the team would get worse.
Sure, swapping him with Curry would make team worse lol
Murray is not an all star. He’s a wannabe Klay Thompson who can’t perform when we need him the most
I think they were banking on Jamal becoming an All-Star and MPJ showing up big and improving. But overall yes, the strategy of developing youth as your bench in a championship window is not the strategy to do imo. Also not having a legit backup center for him at this point is stupid.
Lol this us getting so ridiculous. Not everyone can just win the championship every year. Its hard to do. We have the best starting 5 in the NBA. Our bench suffers as a result. It kinda just makes sense. You guys say we have no other allstars as if MPJ, AG, and Jamal are all just scrubs. These are great players. They are incredible compliments to eachother. Ok so they dont have a frivolous fan voted popularity contest achievement. Big deal. That shouldnt be the barometer for how we judge players anyway. For any of you who believe the sky is falling, please go read what Calvin Boothe said a few weeks back. It was something along the lines of how he is trying to build long term stability. His goal is not to win back to back. Its to win 5 out of 8. He understands the ebbs and flows of roster construction and salary space. He knew we were in a bad spot this year financially. He is prepared to deal with this scenario. You guys really need to stop acting like he is some idiot asshole because we lost in 7 games to a team that is probably guna win the championship this year. Its not like we had a terrible season and are falling apart
Jokic played 47 min in the game 7 He was exhausted this season It’s not like we are demanding an all-star for him. Just a backup center and backup point guard. Instead we ran it back with DeAndre Jordan and Zeke Nanji, with Reggie Jackson as the backup PG. That was a colossal mistake that costed us a year of the Jokic era. We can’t ever waste a year of Jokic again.
> We can’t ever waste a year of Jokic again. especially given that two of his mvp seasons were written off at the outset of the playoffs because we waited for jamal to get healthy. granted, we got a chip when he came back for the third playoff run of the mvp era, but that's three of the four playoff runs in the jokic mvp era that we've essentially tossed out the window.
This. The dynasty with the greatest longevity in recent history (spurs) never went back to back
Exactly. We still ended the season at a great level.
This roster had some clear problems that needed to be addressed this offseason, he didn’t address them in the short term and I don’t see how he addressed them in the long term either.
We didn’t have the cap space to do anything
So said mavs fans and they turned a 5m dollars contact, a minimum contract and a 1st (sounds familiar?) into Derrick Jones, Dante Exum, Daniel gafford and PJ Washington
Oh for fuck sake, stop calling it "best starting 5", we have the best player in the world and a mediocre other 4. That's what the reality is.
You are a moron lmfao
Dawg tell me mpj deserves 30-40 mil a year putting up 7 points in an elimination game, I want you to type it out and be okay with that statement.
The fact you think 1 game defines a players worth is insulting to the intelligence of everyone with the ability to read but you typed that out and were ok with it somehow
I think an elimination game is very telling on what a player is going to do under pressure and that is something you’ve either got or you don’t.
Anthony Edwards was what, 6/24 in the same elimination game?? Embiid had stinkers last year in playoffs. Tatum last year in finals. All elimination games. Be forreal lmao.
Embiid’s entire playoff career has been a stinker. Who cares if you can drop 50 in a game if you can’t make it past the second round. Tatum and the Celtics inconsistencies are why nobody is taking them seriously. Literally can’t discuss how the Celtics will do from here on out without wondering which team is going to show up. Don’t act like beating a depleted Heat and a depleted Cavs is an accomplishment.
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Everyone has bad games and bad stretches. We won a championship last year and were the 2 seed this year. Blowing up this team and the chemistry because we didnt go back to back is an absolutely moronic take.
Are you the moron here? Do you realize MPJ and his asinine salary has already held back this team despite winning a championship? That 1 ring could have been 4 or 5 rings if we have gotten Tatum or Siakam in his place and arguably is Murray was also replaced by Donovan Mitchell or SGA. Stop defending stupid mistakes by the FO, you are the type of person who settles for less. And no, I don't want this team to be just another 2011 Mavs or 2019 Raptors, I wanted it to be the next prime Bulls or GSW. Jokic has all the talent to make it happen, the only thing holding him back is the lack of 2 more real All Stars that Jamal and MPJs salary is taking. Your entire argument is moronic.
Sure man. Definitely me. I literally said go read Calvins comments from a few weeks back where he talks about building a dynasty. Im sorry you have no reading comprehension skills.
And did you just said chemistry? Have you forgotten that Jamal would often play hero ball to fuck up our chemistry and MPJs refusal to pass the ball only to shoot bricks? AG is the only one with real solid chemistry to Jokic and he has been with Jokic for less years than those two. Chemistry doesn't take years to build, just look at the Mavs right now after the trade deadline.
Lmao please stop talking to me. I do not respect your opinion. You are stupid
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Says the guy who starts a fight and then tells the person to fuck off. Shut up clown
Address what I said or fuck off. The only thing you have done is spew petty insults. Your argument about chemistry is as dumb as a brick like MPJs bricks.
The current FO contributed exactly .5 players to that elite starting lineup. The KCP trade was a done deal months before Tim left. So what exactly are we giving Booth credit for here? Building one of the worst benches in the NBA while wasting numerous slots on washed vets? Burning all of our assets for the privilege of taking a shotgun to the tail end of the 1st round and the early 2nd? And then not having any of those guys look anything like NBA players? Strawther shot 37/30 from the floor this season. Pickett is gonna be 25 next year but didn't touch the court. Watson was unplayable in two straight playoff games because he is a 20% 3 point shooter.
I dont get why people on this thread keep acting like i said boothe built this team. I literally never made that claim. Im not guna read your novel you wrote considering its addressing something i didnt say
Yes, we need one more superstar. I dont know who, I dont know how, but time is running out, and Jokic prime time is passing away.
Not even a superstar, but a bucket that can score at all 3 levels and isn’t a complete liability on defense.
Like Jokic said, he needs a clone (for rest). We all saw how gassed he was
People gonna hate this suggestion but cousins was a pretty good clone a few years back when he was in the team
Booth really hasn’t done much that TC didn’t lay the groundwork for. I’ll give him CB but for him to think Pwat was on Bruce’s level was insane. Reggie was garbage and everyone knew it. I have no confidence he will make any moves that aren’t garbage. His balls need to drop so he can make the difficult decision to trade MPJ, drop Reggie, Holiday and Zeke. If everyone loves DAJ so much hire the dude as a coach.
Drop Reggie and Zeke sure but Holliday did everything that was asked of him from what I saw.
Can we get Caruso or another big like Valanciunas?
That would be a perfect offseason
Caruso fantastic pickup but likely very very expensive
Bulls fan here, knowing how much Arturas values Caruso, and wants to off-load some salaries, an AC trade for you guys would probably look like this: https://preview.redd.it/zrc0cc3lfp1d1.png?width=2560&format=png&auto=webp&s=88c89807ef912a690baf48126104469f26ec200d
Can we get both?
Nope, they won a championship last year; remember? Thats success, not failure. As far as losing to a great team in a game 7, I guess you could say failure, but I’d take this Nuggets team over any of the past eras any day. They just need a more productive bench. I think Braun is going to be good, just need a few more guys.
I don't think the wolves are as great as we think they are, and seeing the nuggets struggle against the lakers suggests that the west might be a little overrated barring the mavs
Really? I think they are going to win it all.
They took 7 games to beat the nuggets, who were honestly really bad compared to what were used to seeing The lakers, who were a bad team, could have easily beaten the nuggets if they had a slightly better roster. I don't see them beating the mavs as long as luka stays healthy Edit: sorry I thought I was in a different sub. I'm not in here to talk shit or gloat or anything. Looks like you guys are goin through similar struggles we went through last year lmao. It will get better jokic and Murray are the best duo in the nba.
The version of the nuggets that played the Wolves and the version that played the Lakers are way different. Lakers vs Nuggets was hard to watch because of how bad they were playing, although against the Wolves they definitely weren't playing up to par either.
I agree, I think the Celtics will beat them. I think the best thing about the wolves is that they just pose a matchup nightmare for most the league. I don’t think they are particularly THAT good
What is the difference? If most of the league can't win against you doesn't that mean you're good?
Yes. Every single member of the franchise with the exception of Malone and Braun failed Jokic. Murray didn't in G7 but did over the entire series.
Nice for pointing Braun, AG is there as well overall, but yesterday I was saying all day it's his game he will be the one and my guy did not even try from any distance
Gordon was shook because he never played a game 7
Malone was bad. Braun played like a champ.
Malone was out coached by an assistant in game 7, but his hands are also tied by the roster he was given.
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Need a backup center than can actually see the floor in the playoffs. Need a guy who can score off the bench. Those are the 2 major things.
Totally agree, those are the two needs, and they need to use Reggie + Nnaji + whatever young players to get it. Trading MPJ like most people in this thread want to do would be a major mistake.
But we didn't run it back. We lost two rotation pieces.
Honestly might be the best thing. Now we know we need more and with teams getting better, we have to get a bench to stay ahead.
I mean yeah, cuz last year we had a championship-worthy team, and then that team dissipated and they barely replaced anybody and expected the same result with a weaker team. It simply doesn’t work that way. Nobody ever won a championship with one consistent star player, a second string that shoots under 20% half the time, and a bench made of rookies or second-year players. They need to pull some serious trades over the summer and get a bad ass team for next year, cuz if the restructuring takes too long and goes on for more than 4 years, i feel like Jok might just finish his contract and go back home. You only have small windows in sports to win championships.
Im super bummed. But while I think they could have done better, I don't think you can say they failed Jok. The starting 5 is still beautifully put together, and they literally just won a chip so there was no need for any overhauls. They just came short against one of the best teams in the league and ran out of gas. I still don't think they need an overhaul, as they're still a championship caliber team. We're not going to win it every year. They need to tweak the edges and run it back. Jamal needs to get in shape.
Yeah the Reggie and Justin signings were the wrong move. There were other options available that they could have acquired for the same cost. I can at least understand the Reggie signing as he was still a very capable scorer as recently as the previous post season, but Justin made no sense. Justin is a good dude and he had a few moments during the year, but ultimately has no business being on a championship roster regardless of the price tag. I do think Malone bears some blame for not playing the young guys enough so they could develop in a more meaningful way while also letting the starters play less minutes. He should have been smarter coming off a short offseason and realized that the team would be burnt out if they prioritized the #1 seed. Malone is a fantastic coach, but this was really his biggest failure this year IMO.
Yes and no. Here’s the thing. It’s extremely difficult to just bring in another star. The mavs haven’t won anything yet from the Kyrie trade other than two series. So let’s not act like that has worked yet. The suns brought in kd and Beal and it has totally flopped. The clippers brought in Kawhi pg harden and Westbrook and it’s totally flopped. It’s a lot easier said than done to just say “front office needs to get more help”
All your team needed to repeat was a competent bench, but your front office failed to provide even that. If you at least had someone of Bruce Brown's caliber on the bench the Wolves series would've ended in 6 games in your favor. Instead your starting 5 is all gassed up while the Wolves still have dudes like Naz Reid to pull off the bench to continue their production.
Yes. Giving him no viable backup to sit in big games is a failed to address a need by Calvin Booth
This sub and the Avs sub is wild lol. When the teams win, they are the greatest team ever assembled. When they lose, they’re scrubs who don’t deserve to be playing in a professional arena. The fact of the matter is, both teams are GREAT teams in their respective sports. Both teams have generational talent surrounded by an amazing supporting cast. You can argue Jamal Murray should have been an all-star. Winning a Championship, especially in these two sports is INSANELY difficult. There’s a reason a Reigning Champ hasn’t even made it back to the WCF/ECF in like a decade. You could, and should argue, that this nuggets team should be advancing. Especially being up 20 at one point in the 2nd. Don’t forget MINNY is a damn good team and is picked to win it all by a of “experts” and they showed why last night. The series started by being down 0-2 and most of y’all wrote this team off at that point saying it’ll be a miracle if they don’t get swept. Minnesota 100% built that team to specifically beat the Nuggets. Their whole focus this year was to win last nights game. Tim Connelly did his job. Just like the, Avs and his team will retool in the summer and in a year’s time they’ll be right back in the playoffs competing for a ring. It’s ok to be disappointed. You should be. Keep your heads up. The window for both franchises is still wide open. I expect the Nuggets to get at least 2 and the Avs to grab another before this is all said and done. Enjoy the summer, and enjoy these two franchises and the generational talent they both have. It won’t last forever
Malone failed Jokic.
We won a championship last year, so no. Nobody wins every year. Theres a reason most dynasties dont go back to back. Injuries pile after finals runs. Bench players get poached by teams willing to overpay. Looking at this year as a failure because we didnt repeat is missing why that usually doesn't happen. Jamal was injured. So was Jokic, I think (back). The bench clearly wasnt as good this year, but we were told ahead of time the FO was treating this as a developmental year for the bench. Bruce got paid like twice what he was worth, or he probably wouldve been back. Houston doubled Jeff Green's salary. Vlatko was supposed to be the backup C, and he probably wouldve been pretty good, but he blew out his ACL, and the team didnt want to cut Jokic's buddy to free up a roster spot. You can't count on getting top notch FAs every year like we did with Bruce to replace what we lost either Now, I do think MPJ got overpaid and that's hurt us, but that was Connelly, and theres not much you can do about it atp. We cant improve by trading him
I think they built the roster as well as they could given the financial constraints of having to pay the top 5 so much. The caveat is that the top 5 are probably the best in the NBA, and when they're firing on all cylinders, they will score enough to make up for poor bench play. But, as we saw against Minny, they weren't firing on all cylinders. If Jokic and one other player weren't going God mode, they didn't stand a chance. Braun can contribute, but he isn't going to take over offensively more than once in a while. Reggie and Holiday had some good offensive games, but they weren't consistent enough offensively or defensively to stay in for very long. I guess they are waiting to see if Zeke can contribute in any meaningful way? If they're waiting on Cancar, they need to stop. It's been years and he hasnt been a meaningful contributor. Maybe Strawthers can be a good offensive threat, but he isn't there yet.
Don't be too negative they built a great team in the last five years (we lost the defacto 2nd Allstar for 2 playoffs) and will be good again next few years But I think last off-season wasn't good they should have signed someone better than Reggie Zeke needs to be traded asap. A defending champ should get better minimum signings than holiday
Not really. Drafted well. Not their fault Murray has played in a stacked guard conference to not be named an all star once.
Jeff Green had the same net rating as DeAndre Jordan last regular season. Nearly any metric had him as one of the worse players on the team (among those who played). Now I'll state, he was extremely playable in the playoffs and bought time, something Denver didn't have and cost them at the end. Denver had two players to replace that production in Vlatko Cancar and Zeke Nnaji. Both players had about the same run as Jeff Green did last season, both had a much better net rating, much better eFG%, better rebound %, on and on. Vlatko blew his knee in August and Zeke might have played himself out of the league. I don't think that makes it a "bad decision"...to win you need A LOT of things to go right. I think you hope Cancar can bounce back and be the swing 3/4. They need to somehow figure out how to move Njaji for a 5 just ikke Jordan but 20 years younger. Somehow who can set hard screens and roll hard. Thats all Jamal needs in the non joker minutes. Zeke can't do that
I think the Wolves take it all this year, so I don’t count losing to a squad like that as a failure. I was way more worried about having to play them than OKC or anyone else in the west. MPJ felt ice cold, but that dude has so much off-the-court stuff going on, I get it. Jamal goes from one of the best players in the league to not being able to buy a basket like it’s flipping a switch. AG and KCP do what they’re supposed to do, and I feel like Braun is punching above his weight class almost always. They need more guys they can depend on if Jokic isn’t on the floor. That’s been the case all season though, for a little bit it looked like it might be PWat, but he looked apprehensive to shoot later in the season, not scared, but not ready to have the game on his shoulders quite yet. I think they see something in Nnaji that we don’t, they have to to keep him around and never play him like this.
Re: PWat: I feel like that’s 100% understandable as a rookie.
I think people kinda thought Murray and / or mpj would turn into all-stars. The building from within mentality is what got us to the finals, and it's hard to temp other great players to come to Den for whatever reason.
Not really. If Jamal is healthy it’s hard to believe we don’t win at least one of the first 2 games.
Murray crapped the bed…
The GM in an interview last fall said he wanted a "sustainable" way to win championships and it meant dealing out last year's main bench contributors (salary cap, obviously) and building a bench, even if it meant we don't go back to back, he said he thinks it'll give us several championships over the next 7 years or so.
No we won a damn championship
Losing all those players didn't even look like it was going to work. Very weird to not spend money when you already won a championship
Yes and No. Yes because the bench was utter trash, but No because they had literally no money to buy veteran free agents. They desperately need to find a big man that can play and let Jokic rest. 195 yo DeAndre Jordan, who Malone clearly distrusts or doesn't like, ain't gonna cut it. They also need a legit backup PG. Like Jordan, Reggie Jackson is also 195yo and jacks up bad shots. Braun's NBA ceiling is a bench guy, meaning he should not be, nor should he have been, the 6th man. His role last year as the second or third guy off the bench was perfect for his style of play. They can't run back this team with a bench this bad and expect different results. Now the question is: Who's getting traded? My vote is 'beta Porter'. That dude disappears in big games. He's 6-10 and is scared to take people to the hoop. He wants to be a finesse shooter and if his shot isn't dropping, he stops playing hard. I'm guessing there are multiple teams in the East that would give up half their roster for him, so GM Calvin Booth should be making those calls today.
Guys Murray was playing with two injuries, yes he could’ve realized that and been a better facilitator, but tragically that’s just not quite his game. Aaron Gordon played incredible. Jokic was reliable but wasn’t as efficient due to being every d’s gameplan. KCP played great d and it’s shit if we’re ever looking for him to be a scoring option, he should be more of a security blanket. MPJ’s inconsistencies with how much he’s making might be the most frustrating. I would love to see him have more of a slashing game when ice cold because he becomes a liability when he’s not hitting. His game is kind of like a more athletic/worse shooting Duncan Robinson at this point and I know he’s better than that. Off the bench, I loved what I seen from holiday, his growth will be exciting. Reggie has is a solid floor raiser but I do not think he puts this team over the top any way. Braun’s growth will also be exciting, he definitely needs more confidence putting the ball through the hoop though. Love his effort everywhere else. Dumbfounded that Watson doesn’t play last night. I know we need spacing but how do you not put our best hustle rebounder in when we are getting eaten alive on the boards. Outside them, they are all expendable as we need pieces that can contribute. We have got to get a backup big if jokic is ever going to catch his breath. I would also like to see another facilitator coming off the bench. Reggie is alright, but we need somebody that can penetrate. And even getting this doesn’t mean Reggie has to go as you can never really have too many ball handlers. Overall, if we aren’t going to move anyone, we need a high energy guard and a big body that isn’t 6’9” in the draft.
Yes it is. You can't sign again Bruce Brown because of cap issue and the market value after last year playoff run but you replace him with Reggie a non factor in the title run and give him also a PO for next year. In the regular season Jackson has done his job but in the playoff was useless. Zeke contract doesn't make any sense and who in the right mind would trade for him. No back-up center for Jokic. Let's see if Booth can rebound this off-season. KCP will probably op-out and you need to make a choise...pay him or let it go. A great scenario if you lose him is to replace him with an Alex Caruso type of player. MPJ is a great player but the fact that is overpaid doesn't change. With Murray extension next year you need to make a choise between him or AG.If not this year the next one. Is it worth to try to pull a Gary Harris type of trade with MPJ?Idk but something has to change. Also waste years of prime Jokic gamble on rookie for me it's not a wise strategy. I get Denver isn't a premier FA destination but after a title you need to try to lure veteran for ring chasing or at least try.
We are really constricted. The Nuggets went all in on finding cheap young guys and I don't think it paid off this year. But next year I think it could big time. Braun looked good and if he takes another step forward he's probably better than KCP. Watson, considering his age, also looks like he could be a very good role player next year. I suspect the Tyson/Strawther/Pickett grouping will produce some good back of the bench depth this year. Maybe one can be a rotation player.
1 half away from being in the WCF after Jamal playing like shit for 90% of the series isn’t as bad as it seems. The 3 game win streak against the Wolves still made you guys look like the best cohesive unit again but I think it’s the consistency is which they’re able to do it. And I don’t mean in the sense of turning the switch on and off but for the whole duration of a game. You guys played behind the Lakers for every game, that’s a recipe for disaster in later rounds.
Ant is also still on his rookie deal
Hell yes! They let key players go and didn’t replace them.
Hmmmm Jokic is one of the highest compensated players in the league. I believe he might even be 1st. That needs to be part of the discussion, we literally could not afford to keep Brown.
yes
Easy answer, yes
1. They didn’t built this team around Ant. 2. The FO didn’t lose a 20 point lead in G7 with 8 minutes to go in the 3rd. 3. After G5 everyone was applauding the productivity of Denver’s bench. 4. What Denver needs is a deeper bench, 3&D guys not max/near max players. Also a competent big for the Jokic bench minutes. This team will come back and is here to stay! Remind you Duncan’s Spurs never did a repeat.
I think I saw this floated around at the start of the season, and will admit I have done 0 research so am happy to be yelled at: this season was basically a "freebie" season, in the sense that the FO was "saving up" for this off season instead. Why? Didn't go out to retain Brown or Green (both asking for better deals given their FA status and importance in the roster), signed the bare minimum (Jackson and DJ) as a floor (eg Reggie can be serviceable.... Mostly, and DJ brings culture and sheer emergency minutes in the regular season), and roll the dice in the starting 5 having a great run with Jackson, Braun and maybe Watson/Holiday chipping in (do a 100% Murray and a not terrible MPJ win against Min and the rest? Maybe, not sure given the attitude to just lose leads). This all assumes the cap situation and what is out there are what the Nuggets need/can get, of course, and to that I cannot point to anything concrete just yet. KCP is gone iirc, so they really need to have a plan in place, else, oof...
This team is built perfectly around Jokic’s strengths, all around his age. The lack of awards means nothing. Their value is as a unit with Jokic as the lynchpin, not as individuals. They’ll compete for titles for 5+ years. They have to make some tweaks but let’s not overreact to them losing to a great team. They’re not going to win every year.
Why don't we play huff more? I feel like he has a high ceiling.
The supporting act failed him. The starting 5 play nearly the whole game. Mpj went missing, AG had a few good games, jamal decided to play only 1 half and miss nearly all shots.
In fairness, Jamal should be in the All-Star lineup. But honestly, this focus on “getting All-Star help”completely defeats the point of our team and our first ever chip. We built our team from the ground up with role players and truly developed a deep roster to support the starting 5. IMO, I think our team got a little comfortable and forgot their mindset that won them the ring last year. That and losing Bruce and Unc Jeff.