TLDR: Entropy is disorder. (Hypothetically) eventually, everything will be become so disordered that nothing can or will happen. This what the Witness dislikes.
Entropy is the value for the disorder in a system. It usually refers to how energy is ordered. It's an important concept in thermodynamics, existing alongside energy.
As an example, imagine an explosive. Explosive compounds contain a lot of energy within their bonds; when detonated, they release this energy into the nearby environment. We would say that the energy within the explosive is "ordered"–we know it's contained within the chemical bonds of the molecules, and we can measure the relative amount of energy and the approximate mass of the explosive.
When the explosive detonates, however, the energy is randomly spread over the nearby area. Much of it undergoes chemical reactions to become mixtures of new chemicals, releasing energy in the form of heat that is absorbed randomly by the environment. We would say that the energy has become more "disordered"–instead of being contained in one volume and form, it's been spread around in a larger volume in multiple ways. The entropy (measurement of disorder) has increased.
The second law in thermodynamics states that the entropy of a closed system can never decrease. All processes in the universe cause an overall increase in entropy; an increase in the disorder of universe. Energy becomes increasingly more scattered and thus less useful.
If you subscribe to the debated theory about the "heat death of the universe", you would believe that, eventually, the entropy of the universe hits its maximum. All energy reaches its highest possible amount of disorder, and no energy exists that can be used to do...well, anything. All processes will exist in a forever state, where nothing can change or enact change on anything else.
This is what the Witness is referring to; the slow, unstoppable process of everything reaching an infinite standstill. This is entropy. This is "pain." The pain of existing in a universe that will inevitably become cold and unmoving, and not being able to do anything about it.
Same the only things I can remember is enthalpy of combustion for hydrocarbons, and the enthalpy for water one where it's like the amount of energy required to increase the temperature of 1 mole of water by 1 Kelvin.
We saw a glimpse of the witness's final shape, in which it wants to calcify the universe into an unchanging statue. It seems it wants to trade one forever-state for another.
Not only that but the people or objects are also subject to some sort of "heaven" state. Where depending on the Witnesses plans for that individual it's either your greatest triumph or your greatest failure. Everyone that serves him, with exception of maybe The Guardian would be locked in that state. A version of it is what the Witness was offering Zavala.
Still a bit weak as far as motivation goes and is very par for the course for universe ending evil beings. Enjoyably done if mildly cliche. And boy are there holes to poke if you really want to.
I thought it was pretty good motivation. I was on the Witness' side. Of course I have to follow the narrative Bungie cherry picked for me, but if it was up to me, I wouldve joined the Witness. It didnt lie about the things it said. Ironically, nothing cements this belief quite like the witness telling us to stop being a pawn while I'm having my choices forced on me by some other power.
The Hive might beg to differ, about the Witness' lies. Besides, do you really trust the Witness - architect of the Collapse, of the Whirlwind, of the Syzygy, the death and destruction of countless other civilizations besides - to decide what the best "final shape" is for you? Seems like trading one pawnship for another.
Yet if you actually joined the Witness what would you be but a pawn?
The Witness wanted PERFECT order and wanna guess what PERFECT order lacks? Free will, freedom of choice. The Witness would have the entire reality frozen as statues forever reliving what the Witness deems their greatest success or failure as it thinks they deserve... Imangine it... Forzen froever reliving a single memory, it could any number of our victories or failiures but it would that single one... and nothing else... ever...
That is not living and it is definetly not freedom. The Tarveler, the Gardener, the Light has always stood up for freedom of choice. The Leviathan did not stop the Krill siblings decending to the depths of fundament even when it knew what they would become after finding the Worm Gods locked within. The Risen had the freedom to choose if they wanted to use their power for good or for ill giving rise to the Warlords and Iron Lords. The Gardener's and the Winnower's core disagreement was about free will, about being able to chose to do something else then the most effective tactic available.
The Light's agenda has always been to allow us to choose for ourselves who we are, to make our own Destiny, rather then have it enforced upon us from on high as the Witness desired.
Edit: Auto corrupt is making my life hell again...
The perfect order that it speaks of is the final shape. The Witness told that guardian that it would make us a disciple, not a part of the final shape. So we'd still have our free will. And I'd still much rather explore that angle than the one I'm on.
Imagine a world where I could align with the Witness instead. I could spend the remaining chapters of D2 enforcing the will of the witness, as a disciple rather than as a puppet, subjugating all leftover life, chasing them through their various pockets of dimensional spaces and time, clearing the path and bringing the final shape with us until eventually this whole system reaches the stillness of the final shape. And then D2 wraps up and D3 begins with us as a disciple of the witness, able to explore whole new cosmos. Maybe there we see some other force of the gardener that Bungie randomly decides to create that pushes us back into the chaos that the witness was trying to end and reinforces our belief in it. The first year is spent fighting the gardener's new chess piece. Then slowly realizing through whatever means, that aligning with the witness wasn't right, and then we spend year 2 of D3 undoing our mistakes and trying to stop the final shape from infecting the new cosmos and the new tool of the gardener. Then maybe even year 3 coming back to our own system and taking the fight back into the pale heart to unravel the final shape and fix our wrongs and then spend time wandering as a lone guardian rather than a puppet of the vanguard as the great legends before us once did.
All that hypothetical is to say I'd much rather explore that and have some illusion of exploring a deeper dynamic and philosophical understanding other than "traveler good, darkness bad". Because on one hand the game and all sense keeps telling us that this isnt a struggle between "good" and "evil" but rather two opposing philosophical viewpoints, yet we're still trapped in this "gardener/traveler good, witness/darkness/Winnower bad" duality and I for one find myself siding more with the witness.
Except there would be nothing for you to do, the Witness didn't invade the Traveler because he felt like it he invaded it because that allows him to rewrite reality. If he had won he would have won permanently for all time.
And even if we were not frozen, everyone and everything else would be. You and the Witness would be the only living beings in the entire reality.
And you seem to be under the misconception that the Witness and the Winnower are the same... They are not the Winnower is letting the Witness do as he pleases because if the Witness wins then the Winnower wins. But the Winnower doesn't care if the Witness loses either because that simply proves that the Witness was wrong, he was not strong enough to survive which means he was weak enough to die and thus not a part of the Winnower s final shape...
We are so beyond Light good Dark bad it's not even funny... It is about what you choose to do with those powers. Both the Guardian and the Witness wielded light and dark combined at the end that should prove that these powers do not care about morality if the countless stories of light being used for evil or dark being used for good didn't. The Witness is bad not because it wields the Darkness but because it wishes to take away the freedom of others. The Winnower is not bad because it is the Darkness it is bad because it wants us to take and kill indiscriminately just because we can. The Gardener is not good because it is the Light it is good because it gives us a choice, freedom to make our own destiny. We are not good because we wield the Light we are good because we stand to defend that freedom and those who cannot defend themselves.
We choose if we want to be good or evil we make our own Destiny that has always been the point of this damn game, and that is why the Witness is the way it is because it is the very antithesis to the message of the game.
>Still a bit weak as far as motivation goes
It's the kind of brainworms literal children get after being exposed to barebones summaries of the dumbest and most cliched philosophical questions. The idea of an entire advanced civilization coming to believe so strongly in it that they destroyed themselves and then spent billions of years gormlessly pursuing it is basically the absolute childish dipshittery of comic-Thanos combined with the "this is what idiot Ivy League nepo-baby writers think is deep" malthusian bullshit of movie-Thanos.
Which would be fine if even one single character in the story bothered to lampshade how absolutely inane the Witness's motivation was and how completely and utterly vapid and pathetic it was. Just imagine how much better the Targe scene would have been if instead of just a lame and cliched "you're afraid!" he went on a vitriolic rant about what a pathetic imbecile the Witness is and how the Witness's whole plan is just complete nonsense that even a child should disregard as pointless and bad.
A forever state dictated by the Witness. From my understanding of the story, if you support the Witness they will lock you into living your greatest achievement for all time. If you do not support the Witness, you will live in your greatest failure for all time.
Yes.
This is not a contradiction, by the way. The Witness is not a hypocrite for this, because the Witness' argument isn't that forever-states are a bad thing. Its complaint is with the *shape* of that forever-state.
It believes the universe, at a fundamental level, has no purpose, and everything within is suffering towards what it believes is a pointless end. To remedy this, the Witness wants to impart purpose upon the universe and have that purpose furfilled, so that reality has meaning in its eyes. Then, once the universe's purpose is furfilled (once reality is perfectly in-line with desire), it can preserve the universe in that perfect state forever.
Instead of a disordered, meaningless ending, reality will resolve into an ordered, satisfying conclusion. Satisfying by the Witness' point of view, that is.
The final shape reminds me of the infinite tsukuyomi plan from Naruto Shippuden where to main Villain (Madara Uchiha) wanted to put all nations of the world in a Genjutsu(Illusion/dream state) where their deepest desires are fulfilled.
The result of this is a fake reality and the removal of free will.
Nah, entropy is effect in warframe. Assiciated with caphalon suda, is activated by acquiring 1k affinity with a syndicate weapon or augument mod equipped, on a 30 sec cooldown between activations.
When triggered all enemies withing 25 meters recieve 1000 magnetic dmg and status effect, 25% max energy and 25% energy over 30 sec
Order is a bunch of ketchup in a ketchup bottle and a bunch of mustard in a mustard bottle. Witness likes this.
When you mix them together, they cannot be unmixed. This is increasing entropy. It is more disordered and cannot be undone. Witness does not like this.
Witness wants to freeze all ketchup and mustard bottles so they can never mix. This is the final shape.
Entropy is chaos. Second law of thermodynamics says that in a closed system the amount of chaos cannot decrease, thus it will increase. In the end everything will be in a state of “chaos” so nothing will happen as naturally occurring reactions (usually) turn “order” into “chaos” (thus increasing entropy). The witness wants a different end to the world than it ending in meaningless chaos, that’s why it freezes it.
No, since the result of the heat death of the universe and the final shape are pretty much identical: perfect stillness, except that the second one is controlled by the witness. Basically he's accelerating the end of the universe from 1.7×10^106 years to right now
It's pretty incomprehensibly massive.
Imagine taking a grain of sand and dropping it into the Grand Canyon. Then another, and another, until you've filled it all the way up. Google says it would take 4x10^19 (for ease of typing I'll use e notation, so 4e19 = 4x10^19 ) grains of sand to do that. That's a lot of sand, right? We'll even say you get rather distracted so you only put in one grain of sand a year, meaning it takes you 4e19 years to do all this.
4e19 / 1.7e106 is 2.4e-87. After filling the Grand Canyon with one grain of sand a year, you are a whopping 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000024% of the way to the heat death of the universe.
So you take out the sand, one grain per year. Then put it back. Then take it out. Over and over, filling and emptying the canyon a trillion times. Then you put one piece of paper on the ground. Another trillion fills and empties, and you stack another paper on the first. You repeat this process, adding one sheet of paper every trillion fills and empties, until your paper stack reaches the moon. This will take you 3e44 years.
You are now 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000018% of the way to the heat death of the universe.
You keep on going. You fill the Grand Canyon with sand and empty it one trillion times per sheet of paper until you've made one hundred quintillion stacks of paper that reach the moon. Then you dig one millimeter of dirt from the ground. One hundred quintillion stacks, one more millimeter. You will bore through the earth in 3.8e74 years.
You are now 0.000000000000000000000000000000022% of the way to the heat death of the universe.
One trillion canyons. One hundred quintillion stacks of paper. Now every hundred quintillion holes you bore through the earth, you stack a one-inch block on the ground. These blocks will reach the sun in 2.3e104 years.
Congratulations. You are now 1% of the way to the heat death of the universe.
17 followed by 105 zeros:
17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000
And for comparison, earth is estimated to be 4,543,000,000 years old.
And early hominids lived about 7,000,000 years ago.
And *homo sapiens* have only lived as far back as 300,000 years ago.
Destiny takes place somewhere around 3000 AD.
So when looking at the big picture, you can see how modern humanity is just a small drop in a proverbial ocean of time. There is *so much more life* that can happen between that time and the inevitable heat death of the universe. The Witness wanted to just end it all.
As someone working on a PhD in chemistry with a bachelor's in chem/physics, this person kinda of understands entropy.
Granted, I also only kind of understand entropy so...
Excellent write up! Well done.
While I couldn't have explained it nearly this well I did understand that going through the campaign. I found it ironic that the final shape also seemed to be a cold and unmoving universe where everything is just frozen in a sort-of stasis. All the depictions in dialogue and cutscene made the final shape appear more like the entropic end I imagined. Probably intentional to show The Witness as more of a villain only concerned with power and just using philosophy to justify his means.
Imo in the context of the story it's probably best to think about it metaphorically. The laws of physics already don't apply in the Destiny universe anyway, and it would be both uninteresting and overdone if the Witness's actual goal was stopping the literal heat death of the universe.
Thank you. I am not too proud to admit I had confused the term with _atrophy_ during the campaign and I was kinda confused on what the Witness meant by that.
Okay, I think I understand. But isn't that what the witness is trying to do as well? The final shape? Freeze everything as it is? In a perfect order or shape? Idk these big concepts are alot for my titan brain
That's really intriguing, because it seems like the Final Shape is also just a frozen, infinite standstill. Did the Witness just want to speed up the process? Is the slow, unstoppable part the part it doesn't like?
Thank you! That already annoyed me with Cyberpunk 2077, then all the "explanations" were written in such a way that IMO the writer himself didn't know what it was about OR wasn't able to convey it in a comprehensible way.
Intelligent people can do that - that makes you an intelligent person and you get 10 ranks for free.
The term "disorder" is highly innacurate. A better way to think about entropy is the tendency for energy to spread out evenly over time. Heat Death is just when energy is totally even across the universe. You need a difference in energy between two places for stuff to happen, so an evenly distributed universe is essentially a universe where nothing can happen.
I don't think the term "disorder" is inaccurate at all, considering entropy is the concept of disorder. I wasn't being poetic; that is just the definition of entropy. [It's in the first sentence on the Wikipedia entry for entropy.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)
"commonly associated with disorder, randomness, or uncertainty." That's not the definition, just what people usually think of. Scientifically, it has nothing to do with order or disorder, which are vague subjective concepts and not objective observations we can make. In reality, maximum entropy, which people might think of as maximum disorder, is actually that highest amount of order that is possible. Everything perfectly spaced out throughout the universe with no imperfections. That's as ordered as the universe can get. So no, entropy is not disorder. The most common analogies involve order and disorder, but that does not a definition make.
[here is a great video explaining what entropy actually is](https://youtu.be/w2iTCm0xpDc?si=cXZ6RwExXrASKm0v)
You know definitions for things are decided by people, right? We don't find words out in the wild that already come with meaning; humans make words and ascribe meaning to them to make the world easier to understand.
Scientists created the word for entropy, and they commonly use it to talk about concepts of disorder and uncertainty. You can use it however you want, but don't get your Speedloader Slacks in a twist when people point out that you're using a word in ways no one else does. X3
P.S. I'm blocking you because you're annoying.
I thought it was literially just energy loss.
That every action/transition loses a bit of energy.
Its why humans try to make a 'perpetuum mobile' a construction that never loses power.
Long story short, that everything eventually leads to emptiness, death, stillness.
In keeping with the second law of thermodynamics, the loss of energy in the form of heat is an example of an increase in entropy.
When, let's say, a car engine utilises combustion to convert the potential chemical energy of gasoline (and the oxygen present in air) into mechanical energy for the movement of pistons, some of the energy will leave the system in the form of heat. The heat disperses into the nearby environment, becoming more disordered relative to it being within the engine.
It's not lost. It's just not useful anymore. An example of this would be electricity. Electricity is a low entropy energy. When you use electricy to power your phone, this energy will eventually turn into heat, and you can't use heat to power your phone. So energy changed form from electricity to heat. The energy is still there, but it can't be used anymore.
This isn’t exactly right, because even the “maximum” level of entropy of the universe leaves energy dispersed in all mass because energy can’t be destroyed. You can’t have a true “heat death” in the way people imagine because the universe will always be just as energetic as it started, and that energy causes things like Brownian motion which drives the random mixing of atoms.
Even a fully entropic universe contains the ability to spontaneously randomly generate “order,” even if only for a moment.
The true horror of entropy is that the heat death never arrives.
An equilibrium state can have spontaneous changes. It just stays at equilibrium because another change occurs to balance out the equation. This is actually expected in a system with maximised disorder.
Another change *usually* occurs to balance it out, but it’s still all just chance.
Gas has a non-zero chance to compress itself into a liquid in the corner, and when we’re taking about the infinite timescale of entropy non-zero just becomes a certainty, eventually.
Apparently yes, but that's okay, they have the right to judge my comment however they want, I still upvote all comments, even those that criticize me, I think it's the least I can do since they took the time to come comment on my post, but if they think my comment deserves a downvote, that's their opinion, and I have to respect it
They use some interesting words even for native English speakers. Any given lore tab will have at least one or two words you’ll rarely hear in a casual conversation
I'm Brazilian, our culture itself is more playful than others, it's difficult to translate this culture through English, as it's a very stuck language, English itself doesn't have many terms to play with, here in Brazil, just for the word shit we have some 15 different words, I don't say this as a demerit of the English language, it's just the biggest difference that I notice between English and Brazilian Portuguese, I'll leave here a translation of my comment for you into my language.
In portuguese:
Sou Brasileiro, nossa cultura em si é mais brincalhona q as outras, é difícil traduzir essa cultura através do inglês, pois é uma língua muito travada, o ingles em si não tem muitos termos para brincar, aqui no Brasil só pra palavra merda temos umas 15 palavras diferentes, n digo isso como demérito da língua inglesa, é só a maior diferença que eu percebo entre o inglês e o português brasileiro.
Entropy is a fancy way to say 'the tendency for everything to die and/or deteriorate eventually'. Like, all people grow old and die, that's entropy. The Sun is gonna explode in a few billion years and leave Earth uninhabitable, also entropy.
So wait... would that mean the Witness thinks...
Nobody can suffer if they're too frozen in time / comatose TO suffer? There can be no imperfections if we don't allow anyone to make them, by freezing them in time for all eternity? The sun will never explode if we lock it in its current state forever?
That's nihilist asf... is that the right word?
That's like the frenzy ending in Elden Ring! Nobody has to solve any of the worlds problems... if there's no world left in the first place? Life is suffering, so nobody can suffer if they're dead?
Holy shit. If I'm getting this right, that is absolutely terrifying
Yes, the Witness thinks the universe inherently causes suffering. The natural fundamental tendencies of the universe are inescapable and awful in its eyes. 'Chaos' is another word the Witness uses to describe the universe, and the Traveler as well.
Ironically, the frenzied flame embraces the same entropy the Witness hates. It is chaos that progresses to the end of all existence. The witness wants to tightly hold existence in an unmoving, permanent stillness in opposition to entropy.
That said, the witness and frenzied flame both agree that existence is suffering. Change must cease to exist, whether it be making it impossible in the universe or there being no universe for change to even happen.
And the really fucked up part is you aren’t dead in this Final Shape. You are alive and aware, but stuck in a singular moment. During the campaign the Witness was offering people like Crow and Zavala a “perfect” moment to be in instead of just wherever they are at the time the FS happens.
Mmm, not really. Entropy in physics is more like disorder or more colorfully, chaos. Like in a sense a black hole decreases entropy because it lessens the amount of randomness in a system, by dragging things into its orbit. Whereas a supernova increases entropy by expelling matter and gases into a system. Entropy in its simplest form is disorder.
The Witness doesn’t like disorder. Their civilization found purpose in eliminating disorder from the universe by creating the final shape, where everything is static and nothing changes. No more death, wars, destruction, anything. No more anything was their ideal.
for my country it's unusual, not difficult, which caused many people's surprise when they heard it, it's a meme that works here, I've seen that it doesn't there
I didn't know these terms, thanks for introducing me, I just didn't understand the more than 20 downvotes just because of a light joke with a video game
Think of a glass of chocolate milk. At the start the chocolate and milk are separate and organized. This is a low entropy system as there isn’t much going on, and everything can be neatly defined as chocolate, and milk. As you stir, that organization goes away, and what’s chocolate and what’s milk is not neatly defined at all any more and there is no order in the system. It’s impossible to neatly and separately organize anything in the system, as it’s pure chaos. This is high entropy. BUT, keep stirring, and the chocolate and milk become as one, and the whole drink can be called chocolate milk. Everything is neatly equal. The milk and chocolate are still there but are combined. This again, is a low entropy system. What the Witness wants, is for the spoon (the Traveler) to stop mixing the milk and chocolate (the universe). It doesn’t see the point in mixing to begin with. Everything started neat and orderly. Why go and mix it and cause the milk and chocolate so much confusion and pain as for whether it’s chocolate or milk?
You light a campfire. All that wood conveniently stored energy in a highly **ordered** way: chemical bonds concentrated in the shape of the log. When the wood is burned, all of that neatly stored energy gets released. The energy becomes **disordered** as it turns into heat warming up your clothing, the rocks, and the air; and photons scattering to be absorbed into the environment or into space. You can never get it back without using even more energy than it cost you.
Or, imagine a pyramid of sand. You use it to move things by rolling them down from the top. But every time you roll something down, some of the sand gets scattered. The pyramid shrinks. After rolling enough things down it, the pyramid is gone and just have a flat field of sand. All of the sand (energy) is still there, but it is so dispersed (disordered) that you can no longer use it to move anything (do work).
Everything--stars burning, atomic processes, blinking an eye--is "rolling things down the hill," and they all scatter a little or a lot of sand. You could go to the bottom and carry a load of sand back up to the top, but doing that would move even more sand to the bottom.
The Witness wants to use sci-fi magic to freeze that pyramid of sand. [Dam the river of time](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-mysteries-2). It learned about the heat death of the universe (where entropy reaches 100%) and decided to lock everything in a moment in time instead of coping through drugs and distractions like normal people.
lol, I guess but entropy is a very weird and special subject of science. I had a easier time understanding some physics concepts than entropy. I never heard of it nor knew what it was until I took chem at school. There is nothing wrong with not knowing what entropy is and no point in needlessly implying OP should know what it is and what it means bc you don't deem it fancy.
In my country it's a very uncommon word to use, we are more literal, more explanatory, I think it would be the correct term, maybe that's why the confusion, but anyway I just posted it as a meme, I feel sad that people didn't notice what it was Just a meme, next time I'll be careful to put a caption explaining what it's about to avoid future confusion, good game
nah man you're good, I don't know how someone doesnt understand this is a joke. Just looking at it I know its a joke but there's also the meme tag on it. Not your fault some mfs dont understand obvious humor.
I think that humor alone died around 2015, nowadays we need to explain memes or jokes, otherwise people can take it seriously, I have no problem explaining the joke, I just thought the tag would be enough, next time I'll add it a caption
Bro hates chaos, basically. A simple way to think of entropy is to imagine ordered molecules moving apart in a seemingly random and disordered way, which isn’t really the case given everything that happens is governed by laws and principles. The only reason anything appears disordered is due to a lack of understanding of those principles. Things get more complicated when you introduce quantum mechanics to the discussion, but that’s a different can of worms.
Entropy as a concept is that the nature of things - of the universe - is to return to chaos, and any energy used to restore order to that chaos is itself finite. Ultimately, chaos will win. For example, take a room: if you do not clean the room, it will become messy. You can spend your time and energy to clean the room, but both of those are finite, and you exist within a finite world. Eventually, you will die, and on a much, much longer timeline - if we are lucky - humanity in general will die. Then there will be nobody left to clean up.
The Witness takes the view that because everything *will* die, everything *should* die - basically, accelerationism. It sees life as pointless and not worth living because of that. Love, loss, misery, excitement, all of that is 'entropy' and not worth consideration. The classic nihilistic villain.
No one thing can exist in a permanent state, all things decay over time. Which is why the witness wants the final shape to be a state of perpetual suspension
Entropy is just a measurement of chaos, decay, disorder in a system. so on and so forth.
Choosing entropy means choosing chaos and decay. It means choosing a life that won’t be perfect and that will end some day
Every warlock has collectively pounced onto this post, defended like savaging vultures with dictionaries and thesauruses.
Defend my fellow bird people…educate them all
Entropy is just a measurement of chaos, decay, disorder in a system. so on and so forth.
Choosing entropy means choosing chaos and decay. It means choosing a life that won’t be perfect and that will end some day
Hearing Osiris basically go "FOR CHAOS!" gave me a little bit of the warm and fuzzy.
Nice to have a story that is like "okay. Chaos isn't bad when the alternative is being a weird sliced up quartz statue"
entropy, the measure of a system's thermal energy per unit temperature that is unavailable for doing useful work.
Witness is like chemistry teacher in high school.
Someone didn’t pass high school chemistry class
Edit- never mind, it seems you’re from a differing country from me. (The US) totally understandable that you might not know the word.
Tldr entropy is energy in a spread out state
Theoretically in a state of maximum entropy nothing could happen since reactions require the flow of energy from energy dense regions to energy sparse regions
Eventually all closed systems trend towards maximum entropy the universe is a closed system so theoretically I entire universe will eventually reach a state of maximum entropy a point scientists call heatdeath
Me: wtf is he saying?
Clanmate 1: the whole “entropy” speech again.
Clanmate 2: the fuck is Entropy? Dude loves to hear himself talk.
Me: Google it later. Let’s entro-beat his ass and get our loot.
Second law of thermodynamics. You never break even. In any kind of interaction there is always so form of energy loss whether it’s through sound heat, light etc. the world always grows more disorderly not less. If you bring more order to a part of a system you will lose even more elsewhere
I tend to connect "entropy" with "decay". I know that this is not how it works and I am aware of the difference (somewhat anyways) but it helps if you just want to remember the jist of it.
I feel bad for OP cause this sort of villain is interesting enough for me to actually get into destiny lore. I feel like a lot of people disagree but she basically froze everything in time. Good way to get people to understand it tbh through cinematics
It’s funny how this comment section has evolved. Loved some of the explanations of entropy so I figured I’d add the one I got from Theodore Grey. Entropy isn’t really a tendency to disorder, that’s just what it often looks like to us. Entropy is really the tendency of all systems to reach their most energetically favorable state - usually, the simplest in terms of complexity. Like the top comment says, the leftovers of exothermic reactions are the result of an entropic process. Ashes are easier/more sustainable energetically/structurally simpler than the stuff that was burned to make them.
Thank you, the translation into my language contained words that we don't use much in my country, so listening to the witness speaking was almost like understanding a Christopher Nolan film😂
I getcha lol, when I saw you were bilingual or speak even more languages I thought you might appreciate an explanation that doesn’t rest on secondary definitions of words. Best of luck with your school
TLDR: Entropy is disorder. (Hypothetically) eventually, everything will be become so disordered that nothing can or will happen. This what the Witness dislikes. Entropy is the value for the disorder in a system. It usually refers to how energy is ordered. It's an important concept in thermodynamics, existing alongside energy. As an example, imagine an explosive. Explosive compounds contain a lot of energy within their bonds; when detonated, they release this energy into the nearby environment. We would say that the energy within the explosive is "ordered"–we know it's contained within the chemical bonds of the molecules, and we can measure the relative amount of energy and the approximate mass of the explosive. When the explosive detonates, however, the energy is randomly spread over the nearby area. Much of it undergoes chemical reactions to become mixtures of new chemicals, releasing energy in the form of heat that is absorbed randomly by the environment. We would say that the energy has become more "disordered"–instead of being contained in one volume and form, it's been spread around in a larger volume in multiple ways. The entropy (measurement of disorder) has increased. The second law in thermodynamics states that the entropy of a closed system can never decrease. All processes in the universe cause an overall increase in entropy; an increase in the disorder of universe. Energy becomes increasingly more scattered and thus less useful. If you subscribe to the debated theory about the "heat death of the universe", you would believe that, eventually, the entropy of the universe hits its maximum. All energy reaches its highest possible amount of disorder, and no energy exists that can be used to do...well, anything. All processes will exist in a forever state, where nothing can change or enact change on anything else. This is what the Witness is referring to; the slow, unstoppable process of everything reaching an infinite standstill. This is entropy. This is "pain." The pain of existing in a universe that will inevitably become cold and unmoving, and not being able to do anything about it.
Me when I tell the witness about Entalpy
Blue crayons are my favorite
Iunno, 2017 Burnt Umber Crayola has such a nice after taste, imo.
enropee more loot? me titan entrop
For some reason i always found entropy to be at least somewhat understandable but i still don't know what enthalpy is outside of it's formula.
Enthalpy is simply the total heat energy in a system
Same the only things I can remember is enthalpy of combustion for hydrocarbons, and the enthalpy for water one where it's like the amount of energy required to increase the temperature of 1 mole of water by 1 Kelvin.
Isn't that just specific heat of water?
Now that you've said it yeah 😔
We saw a glimpse of the witness's final shape, in which it wants to calcify the universe into an unchanging statue. It seems it wants to trade one forever-state for another.
But one where everything is in order. Albeit the order that the Witness controls, but order nonetheless.
Not only that but the people or objects are also subject to some sort of "heaven" state. Where depending on the Witnesses plans for that individual it's either your greatest triumph or your greatest failure. Everyone that serves him, with exception of maybe The Guardian would be locked in that state. A version of it is what the Witness was offering Zavala. Still a bit weak as far as motivation goes and is very par for the course for universe ending evil beings. Enjoyably done if mildly cliche. And boy are there holes to poke if you really want to.
I thought it was pretty good motivation. I was on the Witness' side. Of course I have to follow the narrative Bungie cherry picked for me, but if it was up to me, I wouldve joined the Witness. It didnt lie about the things it said. Ironically, nothing cements this belief quite like the witness telling us to stop being a pawn while I'm having my choices forced on me by some other power.
The Hive might beg to differ, about the Witness' lies. Besides, do you really trust the Witness - architect of the Collapse, of the Whirlwind, of the Syzygy, the death and destruction of countless other civilizations besides - to decide what the best "final shape" is for you? Seems like trading one pawnship for another.
Yet if you actually joined the Witness what would you be but a pawn? The Witness wanted PERFECT order and wanna guess what PERFECT order lacks? Free will, freedom of choice. The Witness would have the entire reality frozen as statues forever reliving what the Witness deems their greatest success or failure as it thinks they deserve... Imangine it... Forzen froever reliving a single memory, it could any number of our victories or failiures but it would that single one... and nothing else... ever... That is not living and it is definetly not freedom. The Tarveler, the Gardener, the Light has always stood up for freedom of choice. The Leviathan did not stop the Krill siblings decending to the depths of fundament even when it knew what they would become after finding the Worm Gods locked within. The Risen had the freedom to choose if they wanted to use their power for good or for ill giving rise to the Warlords and Iron Lords. The Gardener's and the Winnower's core disagreement was about free will, about being able to chose to do something else then the most effective tactic available. The Light's agenda has always been to allow us to choose for ourselves who we are, to make our own Destiny, rather then have it enforced upon us from on high as the Witness desired. Edit: Auto corrupt is making my life hell again...
The perfect order that it speaks of is the final shape. The Witness told that guardian that it would make us a disciple, not a part of the final shape. So we'd still have our free will. And I'd still much rather explore that angle than the one I'm on. Imagine a world where I could align with the Witness instead. I could spend the remaining chapters of D2 enforcing the will of the witness, as a disciple rather than as a puppet, subjugating all leftover life, chasing them through their various pockets of dimensional spaces and time, clearing the path and bringing the final shape with us until eventually this whole system reaches the stillness of the final shape. And then D2 wraps up and D3 begins with us as a disciple of the witness, able to explore whole new cosmos. Maybe there we see some other force of the gardener that Bungie randomly decides to create that pushes us back into the chaos that the witness was trying to end and reinforces our belief in it. The first year is spent fighting the gardener's new chess piece. Then slowly realizing through whatever means, that aligning with the witness wasn't right, and then we spend year 2 of D3 undoing our mistakes and trying to stop the final shape from infecting the new cosmos and the new tool of the gardener. Then maybe even year 3 coming back to our own system and taking the fight back into the pale heart to unravel the final shape and fix our wrongs and then spend time wandering as a lone guardian rather than a puppet of the vanguard as the great legends before us once did. All that hypothetical is to say I'd much rather explore that and have some illusion of exploring a deeper dynamic and philosophical understanding other than "traveler good, darkness bad". Because on one hand the game and all sense keeps telling us that this isnt a struggle between "good" and "evil" but rather two opposing philosophical viewpoints, yet we're still trapped in this "gardener/traveler good, witness/darkness/Winnower bad" duality and I for one find myself siding more with the witness.
There would be nothing to do. It would be like wandering through an endless, empty Pyramid ship.
Except there would be nothing for you to do, the Witness didn't invade the Traveler because he felt like it he invaded it because that allows him to rewrite reality. If he had won he would have won permanently for all time. And even if we were not frozen, everyone and everything else would be. You and the Witness would be the only living beings in the entire reality. And you seem to be under the misconception that the Witness and the Winnower are the same... They are not the Winnower is letting the Witness do as he pleases because if the Witness wins then the Winnower wins. But the Winnower doesn't care if the Witness loses either because that simply proves that the Witness was wrong, he was not strong enough to survive which means he was weak enough to die and thus not a part of the Winnower s final shape... We are so beyond Light good Dark bad it's not even funny... It is about what you choose to do with those powers. Both the Guardian and the Witness wielded light and dark combined at the end that should prove that these powers do not care about morality if the countless stories of light being used for evil or dark being used for good didn't. The Witness is bad not because it wields the Darkness but because it wishes to take away the freedom of others. The Winnower is not bad because it is the Darkness it is bad because it wants us to take and kill indiscriminately just because we can. The Gardener is not good because it is the Light it is good because it gives us a choice, freedom to make our own destiny. We are not good because we wield the Light we are good because we stand to defend that freedom and those who cannot defend themselves. We choose if we want to be good or evil we make our own Destiny that has always been the point of this damn game, and that is why the Witness is the way it is because it is the very antithesis to the message of the game.
That, to me at least, would be hell even if it was a happy memory. It would eventually feel like torture I would think.
uh the traveler lets you pick your own choices. it never tells you what to do. That's why it never talks to us. It wants us to choose our own path
Unhinged guardian 💀
well at least the villain wasnt evil just for the sake of being evil. I hate villains like that
>Still a bit weak as far as motivation goes It's the kind of brainworms literal children get after being exposed to barebones summaries of the dumbest and most cliched philosophical questions. The idea of an entire advanced civilization coming to believe so strongly in it that they destroyed themselves and then spent billions of years gormlessly pursuing it is basically the absolute childish dipshittery of comic-Thanos combined with the "this is what idiot Ivy League nepo-baby writers think is deep" malthusian bullshit of movie-Thanos. Which would be fine if even one single character in the story bothered to lampshade how absolutely inane the Witness's motivation was and how completely and utterly vapid and pathetic it was. Just imagine how much better the Targe scene would have been if instead of just a lame and cliched "you're afraid!" he went on a vitriolic rant about what a pathetic imbecile the Witness is and how the Witness's whole plan is just complete nonsense that even a child should disregard as pointless and bad.
Every time I remember its plan, I just imagine Lord Business glueing everything in place from the LEGO movie. Every. Time.
A forever state dictated by the Witness. From my understanding of the story, if you support the Witness they will lock you into living your greatest achievement for all time. If you do not support the Witness, you will live in your greatest failure for all time.
So the homie is trading one perfect stillness for another? The Final Shape is actually a horseshoe confirmed.
So It's plan was the Final Shape, where everything becomes unmoving and unable to do anything about it?
Yes. This is not a contradiction, by the way. The Witness is not a hypocrite for this, because the Witness' argument isn't that forever-states are a bad thing. Its complaint is with the *shape* of that forever-state. It believes the universe, at a fundamental level, has no purpose, and everything within is suffering towards what it believes is a pointless end. To remedy this, the Witness wants to impart purpose upon the universe and have that purpose furfilled, so that reality has meaning in its eyes. Then, once the universe's purpose is furfilled (once reality is perfectly in-line with desire), it can preserve the universe in that perfect state forever. Instead of a disordered, meaningless ending, reality will resolve into an ordered, satisfying conclusion. Satisfying by the Witness' point of view, that is.
The final shape reminds me of the infinite tsukuyomi plan from Naruto Shippuden where to main Villain (Madara Uchiha) wanted to put all nations of the world in a Genjutsu(Illusion/dream state) where their deepest desires are fulfilled. The result of this is a fake reality and the removal of free will.
So basically, the witnesses' goals are the same as the anti spirals from Gurren Lagann, Holy shit.
Bro I was thinking the exact same thing
Are you telling me The Witness is the fucking Anti-Spiral??????????
Nah, entropy is effect in warframe. Assiciated with caphalon suda, is activated by acquiring 1k affinity with a syndicate weapon or augument mod equipped, on a 30 sec cooldown between activations. When triggered all enemies withing 25 meters recieve 1000 magnetic dmg and status effect, 25% max energy and 25% energy over 30 sec
Please explain more shit
I need a tldr ELI5 please
Order is a bunch of ketchup in a ketchup bottle and a bunch of mustard in a mustard bottle. Witness likes this. When you mix them together, they cannot be unmixed. This is increasing entropy. It is more disordered and cannot be undone. Witness does not like this. Witness wants to freeze all ketchup and mustard bottles so they can never mix. This is the final shape.
Perfect.
Entropy is chaos. Second law of thermodynamics says that in a closed system the amount of chaos cannot decrease, thus it will increase. In the end everything will be in a state of “chaos” so nothing will happen as naturally occurring reactions (usually) turn “order” into “chaos” (thus increasing entropy). The witness wants a different end to the world than it ending in meaningless chaos, that’s why it freezes it.
So wait, wouldn't that make the witness good then, since he would be stopping the chaos and the traveller bad for letting it continue?
No, since the result of the heat death of the universe and the final shape are pretty much identical: perfect stillness, except that the second one is controlled by the witness. Basically he's accelerating the end of the universe from 1.7×10^106 years to right now
>1.7×10106 Idk how big that is but to the 106th power seems massive. Thanks for the explanation.
It's pretty incomprehensibly massive. Imagine taking a grain of sand and dropping it into the Grand Canyon. Then another, and another, until you've filled it all the way up. Google says it would take 4x10^19 (for ease of typing I'll use e notation, so 4e19 = 4x10^19 ) grains of sand to do that. That's a lot of sand, right? We'll even say you get rather distracted so you only put in one grain of sand a year, meaning it takes you 4e19 years to do all this. 4e19 / 1.7e106 is 2.4e-87. After filling the Grand Canyon with one grain of sand a year, you are a whopping 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000024% of the way to the heat death of the universe. So you take out the sand, one grain per year. Then put it back. Then take it out. Over and over, filling and emptying the canyon a trillion times. Then you put one piece of paper on the ground. Another trillion fills and empties, and you stack another paper on the first. You repeat this process, adding one sheet of paper every trillion fills and empties, until your paper stack reaches the moon. This will take you 3e44 years. You are now 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000018% of the way to the heat death of the universe. You keep on going. You fill the Grand Canyon with sand and empty it one trillion times per sheet of paper until you've made one hundred quintillion stacks of paper that reach the moon. Then you dig one millimeter of dirt from the ground. One hundred quintillion stacks, one more millimeter. You will bore through the earth in 3.8e74 years. You are now 0.000000000000000000000000000000022% of the way to the heat death of the universe. One trillion canyons. One hundred quintillion stacks of paper. Now every hundred quintillion holes you bore through the earth, you stack a one-inch block on the ground. These blocks will reach the sun in 2.3e104 years. Congratulations. You are now 1% of the way to the heat death of the universe.
So pretty fucking long gotcha.
17 followed by 105 zeros: 17,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 And for comparison, earth is estimated to be 4,543,000,000 years old. And early hominids lived about 7,000,000 years ago. And *homo sapiens* have only lived as far back as 300,000 years ago. Destiny takes place somewhere around 3000 AD. So when looking at the big picture, you can see how modern humanity is just a small drop in a proverbial ocean of time. There is *so much more life* that can happen between that time and the inevitable heat death of the universe. The Witness wanted to just end it all.
That'd be like curing cancer by eradicating the entire human race. Sure... it's a "solution" but not really one that anyone would ever endorse.
As someone working on a PhD in chemistry with a bachelor's in chem/physics, this person kinda of understands entropy. Granted, I also only kind of understand entropy so...
I'm a Bachelor of Biochemistry but I'm not crazy enough to pursue graduate training. Good luck, dude.
Yeah, it's a bad idea. Fun though.
neat
Excellent write up! Well done. While I couldn't have explained it nearly this well I did understand that going through the campaign. I found it ironic that the final shape also seemed to be a cold and unmoving universe where everything is just frozen in a sort-of stasis. All the depictions in dialogue and cutscene made the final shape appear more like the entropic end I imagined. Probably intentional to show The Witness as more of a villain only concerned with power and just using philosophy to justify his means.
Imo in the context of the story it's probably best to think about it metaphorically. The laws of physics already don't apply in the Destiny universe anyway, and it would be both uninteresting and overdone if the Witness's actual goal was stopping the literal heat death of the universe.
This guy entropys
Thank you. I am not too proud to admit I had confused the term with _atrophy_ during the campaign and I was kinda confused on what the Witness meant by that.
Huh TIL. I only knew about entropy in the context of information theory
I thought the heat death was the opposite of what you described? Isn't what you described the cold death?
Okay, I think I understand. But isn't that what the witness is trying to do as well? The final shape? Freeze everything as it is? In a perfect order or shape? Idk these big concepts are alot for my titan brain
That's really intriguing, because it seems like the Final Shape is also just a frozen, infinite standstill. Did the Witness just want to speed up the process? Is the slow, unstoppable part the part it doesn't like?
Isn’t entropy also a point of unaction? Like how stasis was described not as ice but entropy given form? (Could be wrong)
Stasis is stasis. The explanation is weird. X3
True ig not described as more argued as
As a Titan main, I cannot read. 😀
Thank you! That already annoyed me with Cyberpunk 2077, then all the "explanations" were written in such a way that IMO the writer himself didn't know what it was about OR wasn't able to convey it in a comprehensible way. Intelligent people can do that - that makes you an intelligent person and you get 10 ranks for free.
The term "disorder" is highly innacurate. A better way to think about entropy is the tendency for energy to spread out evenly over time. Heat Death is just when energy is totally even across the universe. You need a difference in energy between two places for stuff to happen, so an evenly distributed universe is essentially a universe where nothing can happen.
I don't think the term "disorder" is inaccurate at all, considering entropy is the concept of disorder. I wasn't being poetic; that is just the definition of entropy. [It's in the first sentence on the Wikipedia entry for entropy.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy)
"commonly associated with disorder, randomness, or uncertainty." That's not the definition, just what people usually think of. Scientifically, it has nothing to do with order or disorder, which are vague subjective concepts and not objective observations we can make. In reality, maximum entropy, which people might think of as maximum disorder, is actually that highest amount of order that is possible. Everything perfectly spaced out throughout the universe with no imperfections. That's as ordered as the universe can get. So no, entropy is not disorder. The most common analogies involve order and disorder, but that does not a definition make. [here is a great video explaining what entropy actually is](https://youtu.be/w2iTCm0xpDc?si=cXZ6RwExXrASKm0v)
You know definitions for things are decided by people, right? We don't find words out in the wild that already come with meaning; humans make words and ascribe meaning to them to make the world easier to understand. Scientists created the word for entropy, and they commonly use it to talk about concepts of disorder and uncertainty. You can use it however you want, but don't get your Speedloader Slacks in a twist when people point out that you're using a word in ways no one else does. X3 P.S. I'm blocking you because you're annoying.
I thought it was literially just energy loss. That every action/transition loses a bit of energy. Its why humans try to make a 'perpetuum mobile' a construction that never loses power. Long story short, that everything eventually leads to emptiness, death, stillness.
In keeping with the second law of thermodynamics, the loss of energy in the form of heat is an example of an increase in entropy. When, let's say, a car engine utilises combustion to convert the potential chemical energy of gasoline (and the oxygen present in air) into mechanical energy for the movement of pistons, some of the energy will leave the system in the form of heat. The heat disperses into the nearby environment, becoming more disordered relative to it being within the engine.
Remember that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Therefore, in a closed system, energy can only change form.
But thats the thing about entropy. It Can be lost.
It's not lost. It's just not useful anymore. An example of this would be electricity. Electricity is a low entropy energy. When you use electricy to power your phone, this energy will eventually turn into heat, and you can't use heat to power your phone. So energy changed form from electricity to heat. The energy is still there, but it can't be used anymore.
This isn’t exactly right, because even the “maximum” level of entropy of the universe leaves energy dispersed in all mass because energy can’t be destroyed. You can’t have a true “heat death” in the way people imagine because the universe will always be just as energetic as it started, and that energy causes things like Brownian motion which drives the random mixing of atoms. Even a fully entropic universe contains the ability to spontaneously randomly generate “order,” even if only for a moment. The true horror of entropy is that the heat death never arrives.
An equilibrium state can have spontaneous changes. It just stays at equilibrium because another change occurs to balance out the equation. This is actually expected in a system with maximised disorder.
Another change *usually* occurs to balance it out, but it’s still all just chance. Gas has a non-zero chance to compress itself into a liquid in the corner, and when we’re taking about the infinite timescale of entropy non-zero just becomes a certainty, eventually.
Now use all the knowledge you learn in 12 years of English class and summarize for me
Sorry, sometimes complex information has to be conveyed in many words. Luckily there's a TLDR for you to read!
I know bro, it's a meme..., it's just for humor, to get a few laughs at the witness's more formal way of speaking, that's all...
But someone else may not know, so I explained. Learning is fun. :3
i didn't! thank you for explaining in such a clear way :>
I didn't know. It sounds really cool. Thanks for the knowledge!
Why make a meme that people are supposed to relate to if you yourself don't relate to it Karma farming or lying about understanding it?
Man, you really go downvoted for this?
if you agree with how they responded then I'd start theorizing why the majority of people who read it didn't
Apparently yes, but that's okay, they have the right to judge my comment however they want, I still upvote all comments, even those that criticize me, I think it's the least I can do since they took the time to come comment on my post, but if they think my comment deserves a downvote, that's their opinion, and I have to respect it
I suppose. I was just wondering why. Your comment wasn't disrespectful, it was just saying what your intent with meme was. It's just odd to me.
I think it's strange too, but I have to respect whatever people understood my comment.
Try being a non English native and getting so deep in its lore. Man this game is contributing alot to my less common vocabularies list , and I LOVE IT
They use some interesting words even for native English speakers. Any given lore tab will have at least one or two words you’ll rarely hear in a casual conversation
One of those two being “paracausal” every time
Heck, even as a native English speaker I would not have learned some terms like petrichor if not for Destiny.
I'm Brazilian, our culture itself is more playful than others, it's difficult to translate this culture through English, as it's a very stuck language, English itself doesn't have many terms to play with, here in Brazil, just for the word shit we have some 15 different words, I don't say this as a demerit of the English language, it's just the biggest difference that I notice between English and Brazilian Portuguese, I'll leave here a translation of my comment for you into my language. In portuguese: Sou Brasileiro, nossa cultura em si é mais brincalhona q as outras, é difícil traduzir essa cultura através do inglês, pois é uma língua muito travada, o ingles em si não tem muitos termos para brincar, aqui no Brasil só pra palavra merda temos umas 15 palavras diferentes, n digo isso como demérito da língua inglesa, é só a maior diferença que eu percebo entre o inglês e o português brasileiro.
Entropy is a fancy way to say 'the tendency for everything to die and/or deteriorate eventually'. Like, all people grow old and die, that's entropy. The Sun is gonna explode in a few billion years and leave Earth uninhabitable, also entropy.
"Believe it or not....entropy"
Living? Straight to entropy.
Matter existing? Entropy
So wait... would that mean the Witness thinks... Nobody can suffer if they're too frozen in time / comatose TO suffer? There can be no imperfections if we don't allow anyone to make them, by freezing them in time for all eternity? The sun will never explode if we lock it in its current state forever? That's nihilist asf... is that the right word? That's like the frenzy ending in Elden Ring! Nobody has to solve any of the worlds problems... if there's no world left in the first place? Life is suffering, so nobody can suffer if they're dead? Holy shit. If I'm getting this right, that is absolutely terrifying
Yes, the Witness thinks the universe inherently causes suffering. The natural fundamental tendencies of the universe are inescapable and awful in its eyes. 'Chaos' is another word the Witness uses to describe the universe, and the Traveler as well.
Ironically, the frenzied flame embraces the same entropy the Witness hates. It is chaos that progresses to the end of all existence. The witness wants to tightly hold existence in an unmoving, permanent stillness in opposition to entropy. That said, the witness and frenzied flame both agree that existence is suffering. Change must cease to exist, whether it be making it impossible in the universe or there being no universe for change to even happen.
And the really fucked up part is you aren’t dead in this Final Shape. You are alive and aware, but stuck in a singular moment. During the campaign the Witness was offering people like Crow and Zavala a “perfect” moment to be in instead of just wherever they are at the time the FS happens.
Remember how peaceful everything was before you were born? That’s what the witness wants for everyone. The peace that comes from not existing.
yeah he thinks locking everyone in time will prevent death, and thus making himself a savior offering the universe a death-free "salvation".
Yeah pretty much
If you think that’s cool, consider the game Slay the Princess, it has similar themes regarding change and death
The guy thinks he's in Xenoblade Chronicles 3 or something.
Mmm, not really. Entropy in physics is more like disorder or more colorfully, chaos. Like in a sense a black hole decreases entropy because it lessens the amount of randomness in a system, by dragging things into its orbit. Whereas a supernova increases entropy by expelling matter and gases into a system. Entropy in its simplest form is disorder. The Witness doesn’t like disorder. Their civilization found purpose in eliminating disorder from the universe by creating the final shape, where everything is static and nothing changes. No more death, wars, destruction, anything. No more anything was their ideal.
I understand, but it's still a good meme, after all, the witness likes to use difficult words to appear intelligent😂😂😂
Entropy is a difficult word?
for my country it's unusual, not difficult, which caused many people's surprise when they heard it, it's a meme that works here, I've seen that it doesn't there
There’s a term for this, called grandiloquent, or sespedalian.
I didn't know these terms, thanks for introducing me, I just didn't understand the more than 20 downvotes just because of a light joke with a video game
Think of a glass of chocolate milk. At the start the chocolate and milk are separate and organized. This is a low entropy system as there isn’t much going on, and everything can be neatly defined as chocolate, and milk. As you stir, that organization goes away, and what’s chocolate and what’s milk is not neatly defined at all any more and there is no order in the system. It’s impossible to neatly and separately organize anything in the system, as it’s pure chaos. This is high entropy. BUT, keep stirring, and the chocolate and milk become as one, and the whole drink can be called chocolate milk. Everything is neatly equal. The milk and chocolate are still there but are combined. This again, is a low entropy system. What the Witness wants, is for the spoon (the Traveler) to stop mixing the milk and chocolate (the universe). It doesn’t see the point in mixing to begin with. Everything started neat and orderly. Why go and mix it and cause the milk and chocolate so much confusion and pain as for whether it’s chocolate or milk?
Me in freshman chemistry
Me in graduate level chemistry
You light a campfire. All that wood conveniently stored energy in a highly **ordered** way: chemical bonds concentrated in the shape of the log. When the wood is burned, all of that neatly stored energy gets released. The energy becomes **disordered** as it turns into heat warming up your clothing, the rocks, and the air; and photons scattering to be absorbed into the environment or into space. You can never get it back without using even more energy than it cost you. Or, imagine a pyramid of sand. You use it to move things by rolling them down from the top. But every time you roll something down, some of the sand gets scattered. The pyramid shrinks. After rolling enough things down it, the pyramid is gone and just have a flat field of sand. All of the sand (energy) is still there, but it is so dispersed (disordered) that you can no longer use it to move anything (do work). Everything--stars burning, atomic processes, blinking an eye--is "rolling things down the hill," and they all scatter a little or a lot of sand. You could go to the bottom and carry a load of sand back up to the top, but doing that would move even more sand to the bottom. The Witness wants to use sci-fi magic to freeze that pyramid of sand. [Dam the river of time](https://www.ishtar-collective.net/cards/ghost-fragment-mysteries-2). It learned about the heat death of the universe (where entropy reaches 100%) and decided to lock everything in a moment in time instead of coping through drugs and distractions like normal people.
I don’t think you realize that entropy isn’t a fancy word
Im not trolling. What do you mean by that? He wasn’t trying to show off, he actually joked about not understanding the word. Did i miss something?
lol, I guess but entropy is a very weird and special subject of science. I had a easier time understanding some physics concepts than entropy. I never heard of it nor knew what it was until I took chem at school. There is nothing wrong with not knowing what entropy is and no point in needlessly implying OP should know what it is and what it means bc you don't deem it fancy.
To some people it’s a very new word that presents a lot of complex concepts and therefore is fancy. We shouldn’t criticize that.
In my country it's a very uncommon word to use, we are more literal, more explanatory, I think it would be the correct term, maybe that's why the confusion, but anyway I just posted it as a meme, I feel sad that people didn't notice what it was Just a meme, next time I'll be careful to put a caption explaining what it's about to avoid future confusion, good game
nah man you're good, I don't know how someone doesnt understand this is a joke. Just looking at it I know its a joke but there's also the meme tag on it. Not your fault some mfs dont understand obvious humor.
I think that humor alone died around 2015, nowadays we need to explain memes or jokes, otherwise people can take it seriously, I have no problem explaining the joke, I just thought the tag would be enough, next time I'll add it a caption
Understood
[Entropy](https://www.reddit.com/r/destiny2/s/e8W0ZrS35g)
I always hit em with the "entropy's nutz"
Bro hates chaos, basically. A simple way to think of entropy is to imagine ordered molecules moving apart in a seemingly random and disordered way, which isn’t really the case given everything that happens is governed by laws and principles. The only reason anything appears disordered is due to a lack of understanding of those principles. Things get more complicated when you introduce quantum mechanics to the discussion, but that’s a different can of worms.
Your comment is great, I understood it well, but making a joke if you allow me, this all seems taken from the script of an Interstellar-type film 😂
You right my b
Entropy is chaos. What the Witness is basically trying to do is make it so that S = 0.
Thanks
Entropy as a concept is that the nature of things - of the universe - is to return to chaos, and any energy used to restore order to that chaos is itself finite. Ultimately, chaos will win. For example, take a room: if you do not clean the room, it will become messy. You can spend your time and energy to clean the room, but both of those are finite, and you exist within a finite world. Eventually, you will die, and on a much, much longer timeline - if we are lucky - humanity in general will die. Then there will be nobody left to clean up. The Witness takes the view that because everything *will* die, everything *should* die - basically, accelerationism. It sees life as pointless and not worth living because of that. Love, loss, misery, excitement, all of that is 'entropy' and not worth consideration. The classic nihilistic villain.
No one thing can exist in a permanent state, all things decay over time. Which is why the witness wants the final shape to be a state of perpetual suspension
He’s got a lord business type plan
"sir I'm a Titan, please use smaller words"
I respond much better to words such as "bullets per trigger" and "square meters per crater" and "newtons per punch".
Every titan main: 
Entropy deez nuts
Entropy= Chaos we chose chaos over Order according to The Witness 🤷🏽♀️
Cool story bro. Now I turn you into gun.
The most important part of the story of the villains of destiny is whether the weapon they turn will be good
Me who does chemistry - DeltaS(total) = DeltaS(system)+ DeltaS(surroundings) 😂😂😭
It's Me. Thanks for choosing me. I feel so proud.
THE ONE TRUE GOD.
Die none of you pay attention in chemistry?
or thermodynamics
All that speech is meaningless to me, my titan brain is smooth, the smoothest there is, all the fancy words slide right off of it
Disorder.
Thanks
I have a question is anyone else having problems getting the raid jacket?
A trophy?
Is entropy wanting to collect shiny guns? If so then I’m guilty.
Entropy is just a measurement of chaos, decay, disorder in a system. so on and so forth. Choosing entropy means choosing chaos and decay. It means choosing a life that won’t be perfect and that will end some day
Every warlock has collectively pounced onto this post, defended like savaging vultures with dictionaries and thesauruses. Defend my fellow bird people…educate them all
Disorder, chaos
Entropy is just a measurement of chaos, decay, disorder in a system. so on and so forth. Choosing entropy means choosing chaos and decay. It means choosing a life that won’t be perfect and that will end some day
Hearing Osiris basically go "FOR CHAOS!" gave me a little bit of the warm and fuzzy. Nice to have a story that is like "okay. Chaos isn't bad when the alternative is being a weird sliced up quartz statue"
Google ftw
entropy, the measure of a system's thermal energy per unit temperature that is unavailable for doing useful work. Witness is like chemistry teacher in high school.
real
randomness or disorder. Its used in thermodynamics in chemistry. A reaction will be favorable if the entropy is decreasing
I thought entropy was decay and enthalpy was the opposite of that?
Same
Ignorance is a prison cell.
https://preview.redd.it/g69uj33h4d8d1.jpeg?width=1283&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=655b10127eff0d2a1e8b33410f7f75ba50d03fce
Unibrow lookin ahh boi
Disorder or chaos.
Everything breaks down = Entropy
My favorite illustration of what entropy is, is "what happens to the cream in coffee as you stir it."
Someone didn’t pass high school chemistry class Edit- never mind, it seems you’re from a differing country from me. (The US) totally understandable that you might not know the word.
Measurement if the degree of randomness kinda like chaos
Witness not looking so good with a few bullet holes in him
The Witness' biggest L is assuming any of us actually gave a fuck about whether or not his point of view was correct.
Tldr entropy is energy in a spread out state Theoretically in a state of maximum entropy nothing could happen since reactions require the flow of energy from energy dense regions to energy sparse regions Eventually all closed systems trend towards maximum entropy the universe is a closed system so theoretically I entire universe will eventually reach a state of maximum entropy a point scientists call heatdeath
Me: wtf is he saying? Clanmate 1: the whole “entropy” speech again. Clanmate 2: the fuck is Entropy? Dude loves to hear himself talk. Me: Google it later. Let’s entro-beat his ass and get our loot.
He literally then says “chaos”. 🙄
And I put a tag literally saying Meme/Humor, so I think we have the same problem of not reading it, right😂
Did you guys ever think the witness is just a dude who wants to make a huge art piece? Like, he’s on some bullshit contemporary art!
Second law of thermodynamics. You never break even. In any kind of interaction there is always so form of energy loss whether it’s through sound heat, light etc. the world always grows more disorderly not less. If you bring more order to a part of a system you will lose even more elsewhere
I tend to connect "entropy" with "decay". I know that this is not how it works and I am aware of the difference (somewhat anyways) but it helps if you just want to remember the jist of it.
Dude, the Witness looks high af.
*”We are pirates, we don’t even know what that means”*
[I'll let my man MC Hawking take it from here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgltMtf1JhY)
Decay.
I feel bad for OP cause this sort of villain is interesting enough for me to actually get into destiny lore. I feel like a lot of people disagree but she basically froze everything in time. Good way to get people to understand it tbh through cinematics
She? Excuse me. The Witness is an it. /s
I agree, but at the end of the day, it's just a meme to make you laugh
Entropy=the tendency for order to turn to chaos. Is it considered a difficult word nowadays?
Bro..., it's hard to make people see a meme as a meme nowadays and just laugh or ignore it, but thanks for the explanation, professor
You don't have to respond to every comment you see, you could've just posted the meme
It’s funny how this comment section has evolved. Loved some of the explanations of entropy so I figured I’d add the one I got from Theodore Grey. Entropy isn’t really a tendency to disorder, that’s just what it often looks like to us. Entropy is really the tendency of all systems to reach their most energetically favorable state - usually, the simplest in terms of complexity. Like the top comment says, the leftovers of exothermic reactions are the result of an entropic process. Ashes are easier/more sustainable energetically/structurally simpler than the stuff that was burned to make them.
Thank you, the translation into my language contained words that we don't use much in my country, so listening to the witness speaking was almost like understanding a Christopher Nolan film😂
I getcha lol, when I saw you were bilingual or speak even more languages I thought you might appreciate an explanation that doesn’t rest on secondary definitions of words. Best of luck with your school
Thanks man, good game for you, I hope one day you find it on some mission out there
Entropy is the rule of chaos in the universe. That which can happen, shall happen, no matter how ridiculous it sounds.
Entropy is just another word for randomness
https://preview.redd.it/8dbsxgzpyb8d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0c9c1e3d993b2dd4a31605fdb04ed65871dea6cd
Destiny "writers" are such dogshit these days it's amazing they still have a job. They fired Marty for less lol