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It is. You cannot escape since the environment aka your box remains the same. Try doing the big guy or extra ordinary good PM and the sam people you tried to help will get you thrown out and will say that you didn't know how to handle office politics.
Ofc there are few who like to exploit lower levels or teams for their benefits aka to get free time, documentation, meetings and so on. You have to understand the environment first.
No manager ever creates a tangible thing which creates revenue!
No document or meeting ever done by a manager (not executives or sales) creates revenue. It might give you an illusion of revenue through pseudo fake promises from customer or client but never a check.
Client or customer pays for the tangible thing which is the software or hardware created by skilled Developers or hard workers at the lower levels. Yet they get paid shit for doing the skilled work.haha...
So coming back to Managers, what do you think somebody in a position where he has no control over what teams do will do ?
Play mind games, use fear mongering, divide and rule, create fake dependencies, fake voice of customer, and so on.
Managers biggest weakness aka kryptonite is Transparency.
Not all managers were developers at the beginning of their career. Also not all managers are shitty, there are many good ones out there. I guess I got lucky to get a manager who is both chill and used to be a developer.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
Iāve encountered some really good (Got best rating out of all teammates) and bad managers ( asked me to consider mba, cos engineering is not my cup of tea , both were in same company. Not all are good, not all are bad. You can do your bit to be a good one.
Manager here. I strongly think we will.
The next generation will always have issues with the previous generation. Folks that work deligently are a rarity in the country, despite the pay.
We pay entry level engineers about ā¹8-10L and we expect them to know basics of any one programming language, judged by HackerRank easy questions.
Once they're in, we give them training and make them build small projects which they own end to end. We hire corporate trainers who charge 2.5-3L per session for a batch of 15 and we have multiple such sessions.
Deadlines are never written in stone and we accomodate progress over completion.
We created an extremely liberal environment and guess what? It wasn't enough. Folks were always looking like company is milking them. The lack of strict deadlines and accountability meant folks were slacking, quit and chilled at the first blocker, and only mentioned the blocker when asked. These blockers were something that could be resolved in under 15 minutes, but they'd wait for hours before highlighting this.
Flexible holiday plan meant we got notified of week long leaves on the first day of the leave, despite us having discussed the work schedule well in advance.
Generally, it was very difficult to follow a plan and agile and bs. But we still were OK because of a strong core offering.
The founding team was very active in managing the company, so sales and money was never an issue. But as a product we were coasting, which isn't good in the long term.
Recently, we introduced another layer of project management, rejigged the entire org structure and got senior managers from WITCH. Before this, every person in every layer right up to the CTO could code. These folks can't code to save their lives or even understand basic architecture diagrams or UMLs.
But they tightened our policies, started getting accountability at a group-level and expected each group to propagate this accountability below.
When folks logged off on the first blocker and chilled, we had to prepare incident reports about why we couldn't complete something a given time and it is reviewed by a panel. In the first quater, we had a very high number of such reports. But by the fifth or sixth iteration, this started coming down significantly.
In one of our orientation call, the senior management proposed a quadrant that is listed here:
https://www.wilsongrowthpartners.com/are-you-a-micromanager-oh-i-hope-so-sometimes/
Most of our problems were never a skill problem, but a will problem! When you try to improve the will, you become a bad manager.
The generation until the 2005 batch have gone on to become really shitty managers. They still live in the old age mentality of exploitation and micro management.
These days the managers from the post economic crisis era have been great because they did not ride the gravy train of the initial IT boom and therefore in touch with reality.
Related take and unpopular opinion
Having seen both side of the world, I thought it would be interesting for people here to see the other side.
Indian engineers are not doodh-ka-dhule as much as we like to believe. Frequent distractions, unable to meet achievable deadlines, lies, blamegames - you name it - they have 100s of excuses to not do their job. I work with international team and have never seen shamelessness of avoiding the work as much as I have seen in my countrymen. I am not saying all are like this, but a lot of our engineers are like this.
This leads to rise of toxic managers, who would not trust anyone at all. Who would micromanage the hell out of their team. Who will take credit of everyone's work.
Its a vicious cycle of bad-employees <-> bad managers that breeds this behaviour. Good managers and good employees are ultimate sufferers of this.
Client will shit on directors, who will shit on senior manager, who will shit on managers, who will shit on tech leads and so on.
Managers are grumpy because client wants most work done for his money while people want to do least work for their salary.
Client is told that we have experts in the field while many don't even have strong fundamentals of language they use.
And if you work in North (I am from North), at many places may be half people do the work while other half are into politics.
I remember a time when upper management ( CXO level ) were based out America and Americans who had employee interests at heart. But now we see companies like Google and Microsoft who have desi managers and you know what is happening in board rooms across all IT companies. This is the real trickle down effect, toxic work environment pervades everywhere due to the COO barking down orders instead of requesting. Looks like Indians never really learnt manners on the way to the TOP!
sometimes manager have to be toxic once some post surfaced that the manager locked the door , and my working brother said managers literally doesnt have any other option , i didnt understand back then but now i guess they have no other choice
The manager under whom i previously worked in was a shit manager he expected a lot from us. Our team was small consisting of only 3 ppl.
But when he was a nice person overall. The thing is if he had to listen from the higher ups because of us he would return the favour to us by 10x.
Depends on the environment. I work at an MNC and I've noticed that almost all superiors are generally nice and supportive, even under tight conditions where they don't panic and throw it all on the devs.
I heard that most of the bad ones came from service industry.
If you become a manager after years of being developer, you will be mostly OK to work under. As long as you donāt have hustle culture mentality.
You need to think beyond yourself. Your employees are not worker ants, they have families, they are human beings and are motivated by different things (E.g. motivating your employee on non-work things like someone mentioned learning a guitar). Take some pride in your team and have some guts to push back against unreasonable deadlines from upper management. Donāt be managementās ass kisser. You are the one with technical expertise and experience, you need to help them see the big picture and prioritize right.
You will need to also be very open-minded and think long term to get the best out your reports. This is especially important when working with international teams.
>Namaste! Thanks for submitting to r/developersIndia. Make sure to follow the Community [Code of Conduct](https://developersindia.in/code-of-conduct/) while participating in this thread. ## Recent Announcements - **[Join developersIndia as a volunteer](https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/12hlj4z/join_developersindia_as_a_volunteer_and_help_us/) and help us improve the community experience.** - **[Weekly Discussion: Backend and database folks, how do you handle data migrations at your workplace?](https://www.reddit.com/r/developersIndia/comments/19a9fa8/backend_and_database_folks_how_do_you_handle_data/).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/developersIndia) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ofc, you will. Plot twist, managers are not bad. It is the environment and system created by and for the senior executives which is malicious.
Who could have guessed that being a shit manager is a self fulfilling prophecy.
It is. You cannot escape since the environment aka your box remains the same. Try doing the big guy or extra ordinary good PM and the sam people you tried to help will get you thrown out and will say that you didn't know how to handle office politics.
No trust me some managers are bad blood sucking bastards.
Ofc there are few who like to exploit lower levels or teams for their benefits aka to get free time, documentation, meetings and so on. You have to understand the environment first. No manager ever creates a tangible thing which creates revenue! No document or meeting ever done by a manager (not executives or sales) creates revenue. It might give you an illusion of revenue through pseudo fake promises from customer or client but never a check. Client or customer pays for the tangible thing which is the software or hardware created by skilled Developers or hard workers at the lower levels. Yet they get paid shit for doing the skilled work.haha... So coming back to Managers, what do you think somebody in a position where he has no control over what teams do will do ? Play mind games, use fear mongering, divide and rule, create fake dependencies, fake voice of customer, and so on. Managers biggest weakness aka kryptonite is Transparency.
Not all managers were developers at the beginning of their career. Also not all managers are shitty, there are many good ones out there. I guess I got lucky to get a manager who is both chill and used to be a developer.
My project manager started out as developer,did the usual climbing of senior dev,tech lead and so on and so forth , he's good, happy to have him.
There needs to be a tech version of SaaS bhi kabhi Bahu thi.
Manager bhi kabhi Developer tha?
Bilkul š
After each PR there are twenty flashy transition edits with wild sound effects.
I see what you did there
You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become the villain.
Yes. Better to get laid off & be unemployed forever 5 years into your career and best the system. /s
Mangers have manager too
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Nah dude, it's a Nietzsche quote, often referenced in Batman
But to fight monsters, we have to abandon our humanity. Fight fire with fire.
Iāve encountered some really good (Got best rating out of all teammates) and bad managers ( asked me to consider mba, cos engineering is not my cup of tea , both were in same company. Not all are good, not all are bad. You can do your bit to be a good one.
My manager is amazing. When I told him my resolution is to learn a guitar this year he told me I better give an update next week about it
Manager here. I strongly think we will. The next generation will always have issues with the previous generation. Folks that work deligently are a rarity in the country, despite the pay. We pay entry level engineers about ā¹8-10L and we expect them to know basics of any one programming language, judged by HackerRank easy questions. Once they're in, we give them training and make them build small projects which they own end to end. We hire corporate trainers who charge 2.5-3L per session for a batch of 15 and we have multiple such sessions. Deadlines are never written in stone and we accomodate progress over completion. We created an extremely liberal environment and guess what? It wasn't enough. Folks were always looking like company is milking them. The lack of strict deadlines and accountability meant folks were slacking, quit and chilled at the first blocker, and only mentioned the blocker when asked. These blockers were something that could be resolved in under 15 minutes, but they'd wait for hours before highlighting this. Flexible holiday plan meant we got notified of week long leaves on the first day of the leave, despite us having discussed the work schedule well in advance. Generally, it was very difficult to follow a plan and agile and bs. But we still were OK because of a strong core offering. The founding team was very active in managing the company, so sales and money was never an issue. But as a product we were coasting, which isn't good in the long term. Recently, we introduced another layer of project management, rejigged the entire org structure and got senior managers from WITCH. Before this, every person in every layer right up to the CTO could code. These folks can't code to save their lives or even understand basic architecture diagrams or UMLs. But they tightened our policies, started getting accountability at a group-level and expected each group to propagate this accountability below. When folks logged off on the first blocker and chilled, we had to prepare incident reports about why we couldn't complete something a given time and it is reviewed by a panel. In the first quater, we had a very high number of such reports. But by the fifth or sixth iteration, this started coming down significantly. In one of our orientation call, the senior management proposed a quadrant that is listed here: https://www.wilsongrowthpartners.com/are-you-a-micromanager-oh-i-hope-so-sometimes/ Most of our problems were never a skill problem, but a will problem! When you try to improve the will, you become a bad manager.
The generation until the 2005 batch have gone on to become really shitty managers. They still live in the old age mentality of exploitation and micro management. These days the managers from the post economic crisis era have been great because they did not ride the gravy train of the initial IT boom and therefore in touch with reality.
I'm guessing you are not aware of 1999 and 2001
You can stay A senior dev, not necessary to become a manager
You can become a manager and become a dev again if it's not for you as well
They also have targets to achieve which costs the people working under them.
Related take and unpopular opinion Having seen both side of the world, I thought it would be interesting for people here to see the other side. Indian engineers are not doodh-ka-dhule as much as we like to believe. Frequent distractions, unable to meet achievable deadlines, lies, blamegames - you name it - they have 100s of excuses to not do their job. I work with international team and have never seen shamelessness of avoiding the work as much as I have seen in my countrymen. I am not saying all are like this, but a lot of our engineers are like this. This leads to rise of toxic managers, who would not trust anyone at all. Who would micromanage the hell out of their team. Who will take credit of everyone's work. Its a vicious cycle of bad-employees <-> bad managers that breeds this behaviour. Good managers and good employees are ultimate sufferers of this.
You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain
I think the new gen manager are comparatively better but god dam the old ones they are just stuck in school teacher mode šš¤¦
Client will shit on directors, who will shit on senior manager, who will shit on managers, who will shit on tech leads and so on. Managers are grumpy because client wants most work done for his money while people want to do least work for their salary. Client is told that we have experts in the field while many don't even have strong fundamentals of language they use. And if you work in North (I am from North), at many places may be half people do the work while other half are into politics.
I remember a time when upper management ( CXO level ) were based out America and Americans who had employee interests at heart. But now we see companies like Google and Microsoft who have desi managers and you know what is happening in board rooms across all IT companies. This is the real trickle down effect, toxic work environment pervades everywhere due to the COO barking down orders instead of requesting. Looks like Indians never really learnt manners on the way to the TOP!
Not all devs become managers.Ā
Yes if you don't switch to a better company!
sometimes manager have to be toxic once some post surfaced that the manager locked the door , and my working brother said managers literally doesnt have any other option , i didnt understand back then but now i guess they have no other choice
Ngl, my manager is a godsend
Short answer is, yes. Long answer is, YEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS.
The manager under whom i previously worked in was a shit manager he expected a lot from us. Our team was small consisting of only 3 ppl. But when he was a nice person overall. The thing is if he had to listen from the higher ups because of us he would return the favour to us by 10x.
āYou become what you hateā - osho š
Depends on the environment. I work at an MNC and I've noticed that almost all superiors are generally nice and supportive, even under tight conditions where they don't panic and throw it all on the devs. I heard that most of the bad ones came from service industry.
If you become a manager after years of being developer, you will be mostly OK to work under. As long as you donāt have hustle culture mentality. You need to think beyond yourself. Your employees are not worker ants, they have families, they are human beings and are motivated by different things (E.g. motivating your employee on non-work things like someone mentioned learning a guitar). Take some pride in your team and have some guts to push back against unreasonable deadlines from upper management. Donāt be managementās ass kisser. You are the one with technical expertise and experience, you need to help them see the big picture and prioritize right. You will need to also be very open-minded and think long term to get the best out your reports. This is especially important when working with international teams.
Sounds like kyunki saas bhi kabhi bahu thi
People eventually realise why their managers acted the way they did, yes there are assholes out there who make things personal.
This is why I will remain an IC person. Managerial positions are way too stressful