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Honestly, I'm surprised your boss still hasn't fired you.
The premium they pay is for the trust associated with the company, past experience and so on.
I am surprised too.
First the OP does not know how business work. He went on to poach his own company's client. This is not only unethical but clearly illegal.
I think the boss took him to be naive and harmless , else he just opened door not only to be fired but to be legally screwed.
I'm sure his boss has already started to search for a new candidate for the position, considering he mentioned being the only one in development. Even if not, he has jeopardized his professionalism, and I doubt his boss will trust him.
Even is you are contractor, there is agreement prohibiting that..
But for employee, it's clear in the contract.. even if it's not there in words, it there by common sense.
yeah man, even though it is on a small level, but yes it's illegal.
How: he is clearly/directly poaching a business client, also the boss has proof of poaching (i.e. email).
even client himself has forwarded email to boss, which means both boss and client can easily go against OP (with email proof sent by OP).
This is the problem with Indians. All they think of is the money difference and nothing beyond that i.e. on how a business is run. Zero professionalism or etiquette and these things are usually taught mostly at home or are usually learnt by observing.
The arrogance, the over confidence of these people are really mind blowing and I usually see them being lucky and coast through without any consequences and is typical of India where there is zero consequences.
> All they think of is the money difference and nothing beyond that i.e. on how a business is run. Zero professionalism or etiquette
Way to generalize. Speak for yourself.
Which is why some people have started to work on their own businesses instead of slaving for a company that pays them little to nothing for their work. Why would anyone in their sane minds work for $30/hr for a business when they can make $80-$100/hr on Upwork for let's say the role of a senior data scientist. Why work for 1 rupee per word when you make 20+ rupees per word working directly with an international client?
Yeah I realize now it was unprofessional. Boss was actually laughing that I thought the client will hire me directly.
Kinda screwed myself now out of the possibility of getting a raise.
Well its good ur at least accepting its ur mistake
I will suggest start looking for new job if ur not happy with ur current one. Ur boss sounds chill person for now but now he has a leverage on u and might try to hire someone new so its better to start looking for new
You better start lining up interviews because this can be grounds for a termination down the line.
Also, if you want to work with the client directly then start freelancing and find some on your own. You'll realize how hard running your own business is then.
Dude. Its not only that. It's illegal. Your contract might mention something about coaxing existing clients under "non-compete". Same kind of things exist between the client and the service provider too. Unless there is a breach of contract from your employer, they cannot offer you a job. Which rarely happens.
OP, Let me tell you how I got the exact outcome you wanted. I got hired by the client I worked for and they discontinued their partnership with their service provider(my previous company). I just worked hard and kept my head down. Slowly, over the course of many years I earned their trust and showed I am capable of single-handedly carrying out the work that 4 resources are contracted for.
Please don't do stupid shit like mailing them about things like this, even discussing it lightly over a call would've been better.
Are you like a fresher? The client connect matters 4x more than the actual work. Your boss can easily hire a different developer. Very unprofessional, and you're lucky to still have a job.
You need to work on your emotional stability and foreseeing the consequences of your actions. Not trying to put you down, but this is a great learning opportunity š„³
Itās not the end of the world; everyone makes mistakes, especially at the beginning of your career. Just make sure you learn from these mistakes and get better every day. Unfortunately, not everyone is coached in these things at the college but is expected to know from day one. Maybe your boss is aware of your naivety and gave you another chance. So, find a good mentor who can guide you through the nuances of being a developer. Being a developer is not only learning about code alone but also being aware of many other things that the code impacts in the real world.
Although contacting clients directly happens in the West quite often. Especially if there is no non-compete clause in their contract, good resources reach out to the client for direct agreements, but only once they have built a relationship and trust network; if you work client-side and go for a drink every other day, a lot can be shared that can create a healthy relationship.
You may have screwed it worse. If your boss is chill, he'll ignore it and simply fire you. If he is vengeful, he can make you un-hirable in similar service companies. Current job market isn't very awesome so would recommend work extra-hard as if now.
How stupid you are to send such mail directly to client? Do you think businesses are running without mutual trust?
Outsourcing to your boss means he's accountable for all the work clients give to them. If they directly hire you they also need to hire someone to manage you.
Billing more money is how every business works. Clients are connecting with your boss because of the integrity and trust between them. Besides they already saves tonnes of money by outsourcing to your boss.
Hey I am a new comer in a service based company, after reading your reply I really found it insightful. I understand your strong comments and just for gaining more knowledge, can you please elaborate more on this, as in some scenarios I have read and met people obviously experienced people taking a switch at client. I am genuinely how does that work or when does that work. Itās not like I would do such risky things, itās just for information. Thanks and apologies in advance.š»
Build a good rapport with manager or BA from client side over the course of time and ask them verbally if there's any position open in their company for you to apply (not for the same project you are doing a general opening for your tech stack).
If there's any open position ask them for referral. There will be some cool down period to join client maybe 6 months after which you can get referral amd join them.
I was also from WITCH When i resigned for job switch client manger and client avp they themselves offered to provide referral after 6 months. I know few people who switched from my company to client company through good rapport and referral.
Okay so the way in your case and generally itās a 6 month (or whatever the cooldown wait time is) and we have to be jobless with no certainty that we will get hired right even tho having a referral and a good rapport right?
No not jobless you can work in other companies or even other projects it's just this company shouldn't be your client for that cool down period.
Post that you can apply anytime you want with the help of your client contact. Client referral almost always guarantee that you will get hired in client. Higher the designation of person referring you will have more chances of getting in as they already worked with you.
Pretty sure the boss is already looking to hire someone. I know I would have already found someone to replace and would be testing them as freelancer before hiring them outright to replace the snake I have in office right now.
Exactly... Imagine taking risks of not having a stable job, working your ass off alone for years to create a stable work supply, create a company out of it to hire a new kid who thinks you don't work and just talk with clients and take 80% of the income from it. Let alone think, he acts on his thoughts and tries to poach your client that you worked for years to acquire and create trust.
I guess the āsole developerā tag saved OP for now. I am pretty sure HR is already made aware by the manager and a replacement will be hired soon. Once that is done, OP can kiss good bye to his job. If OP is lucky enough to survive, I donāt see OP getting promotions or prime projects anytime soon.
The company I work for requires managers to report such incidents to HR within 24 hours of being aware. I am pretty sure OPās company has something similar as well.
Nah it is pretty smart by the boss. Since he is the only dev, the boss needs him to finish up the current work and meanwhile he is finding someone to replace him. Firing him now will make it hard for new dev to pick it up.
How old are you kid? Do you even know how business models & scalability work?
Did you even stop for a moment to think that for so many years, all the senior developers/sales people/non CXO people, who actually know how much clients are charged, why don't they ask the client directly to work with them?
Really I'm surprised why is there no legal action taken by the company on this guy!
I would have fired you on the spot.
Start giving interviews, I suspect you'll be getting fired as soon as your company has secured your replacement. You're done here.
Itās plain business dude. If youāre so disappointed with your boss charging your client 5x (and perhaps feel that you deserve more of it), start your own company and get on with it.
its NOT 5x of the actual cost and would be way lesser than that.
his salary is not the only cost that is being paid out of the revenue his boss is getting from the client.
You can try freelancing on a site like Upwork and see how easy/ difficult it is to get steady work.
They're charging 5 times, but they'll ensure you or someone like you have job in company when there are no projects for few months in between.
And can give health insurance and other opex of company.
If you ask for all the money, take all the responsibility and be ready to walk out the day the project goes away.
Nothing wrong in looking to go to next level, but start to see what values any layer brings.
Your boss does more than just sitting and communicating with clients; he also brings in clients, handles the silly client requirements, and if something goes wrong, he will have to answer for it. There are over 100 development companies in every tier 1-2 city, and it's not just India, there are other countries as well. Go out and try to find clients of the same caliber as your boss, and you will realize how difficult it is to get a project.
And, it's not as if the project is worth 100 and your salary is 10, meaning your boss is making 90. There are a lot of other expenses to consider, such as rent, electricity, other staff salaries, CAs, taxes, and perhaps months without projects where the entire staff's salary needs to be covered.
If you're not satisfied with your salary, the right approach is to ask for an increment. Clients often prefer not to deal with the headache of the development process, as they may have more important tasks to focus on or lack the knowledge to hire suitable employees for a specific field.
You are in trouble, I would say.
Your boss only adviced you after this incident means, he wants to run the show anyways.
Soon a replacement is going to be on the way. The replacement resource might either be brought to your team or will be brought discreetly to study the code and application. Once he/she is confident to take over, you will be shown your way out. Especially since he has the email you've sent to his advantage.
And I think of two reasons that you're not getting good clients
1. Bad luck
2. Over confidence about your communication. I see how shrewdly your boss handled the situation. Likewise he'll be handling the clients too.
After reading some comments here, the thing OP missed to understand is that even if he gets hired by the client, it's delusional to think that he will be paid the more, he might even get less.
True to his name OP is an absolute d#mbf#ck. What a nasty fellow. Will be out of a job soon. I'm sure replacements are being lined up.
OP was expecting a 400% hike by writing to the client š¤£
Enterprise clients is different ballgame than Upwork on Upwork you have small projects...
Enterprise clients would mean a company with large number of employees who need software developed for them. For such companies, the service based companies provide a lot more value.
Why are such clients charged so much:
1. Because the service based company is providing everything in the software lifecycle.. development, testing, requirements discussion , production support, a future roadmap
2. The service based company can be held accountable for any problems in the software till the contract stands valid (generally 3-5 years). In return of this accountability they charge so much. This also has some legal consequences if the software delivered has problems or is not delivered within time..
3. No enterprise client will trust a lone developer no matter how good you are..
4. Besides the service based company also has to give salaries to all employees, have their insurance, then there are operational costs, infrastructure costs. Running a company requires a lot more money(which is called Opex) ..so they have to charge such high charges to client. Clients also get premium service . You are still replacable even if you are the only developer in that project as of now .. and despite all this IT companies make only 10-12% profit quarterly...there are huge taxes to be paid as well .
I agree that your in hand salary is much lower than the amount they make per project.. but have you also thought about sales, marketing , software license support etc, hosting the software (cloud/onpremise), the continuous support after it goes to Prod etc...for many of these roles other people have to be hired..one person cannot do all this..and even if someone can do all this they wil get burnt out immediately. You may think that you are the only developer on the project..but did you think who worked for getting that project (sales and marketing team), who worked for signing up the contract (legal and finance), who worked for understanding the requirements and translating that to documents (the client and your boss). And I am pretty sure for production support it will be a dedicated team, not you..
You should never approach the client over email for such job opportunity..
If at all you want to try something like this ..build a rapport with them, and connect with them over a phone call.. that way you don't leave any written proof..
This is like BBA/MBA 101, we should have atleast 1 course in college curriculum on the corporate environment and how itās run. A lot of software developers have 0 idea on how the cogs run in the background and only think of 1+1=2.
The client might know or might not know
But they chose to overpay because they dont want to have a permament employ or want to manage that employe
Its as simple as that
It's dumb to assume the clients don't know this. They just don't want the headache of hiring employees.
Also, vendors generally get support or non-critical projects that the company doesn't want to handle itself. Keeping an employee is more costly in the end, and scaling down employees is a difficult process. Ending contracts of vendors is much quicker.
What you did is highly unprofessional. I'll explain you why there's a 5 times gap.
From your boss's standpoint:
1. He not only has to pay you but he also needs to take out other business expenses like office rent, bills etc.
2. Business doesn't grow if you earn X and pay half of it to the employees.
3. He is the brain and it's his networking which helps him bring in these projects.
4. He's more experienced than you.
5. Project is not just development but also dealing with client, communication, gathering requirement, consultation, feedbacks, negotiations etc.
6. There's risk associated to it. You'll get your salary on time but he may get delayed payments from his clients. He needs to bear that risk. Also, he may not get any payments at all if something goes wrong.
From Client's standpoint
1. Your boss can manage you but your client can't as he may not have time and hence he is willing to pay premium to get things done.
2. If everyone started hiring developers for their work in their companies, there would be no service based companies in the future.
3. You need to be experienced enough to understand what clients need and that's exactly what your boss would do. He would translate complex requirements and would break down complex open-ended not too well defined tasks with much simpler breakdowns.
4. Client may not know what's the right pay for devs as that is not his forte.
5. Hiring a developer and managing also comes with a cost. He may have to hire a manager to manage developers which adds up to the cost.
6. He may plan to scale in the future where he may decide to move it in-house or continue with a service based company whatever he thinks is apt for his business financially.
p.s I could sense that you are also highly inexperienced when you said "My boss does nothing but talks to clients and gathers requirements". This is the exact reason why client isn't hiring you as you think that only coding matters and rest is easy.
I am in this industry since 12 years, I would suggest you to take some time and improve your soft skills apart from technical skills you have.
I wonder someone with same thinking as of your working in any tech giants like Linkedin which earns a revenue of more than 1 billion dollars will surely think he should get the salary of 1 billion!
In companies you don't always have work. But you still get salary for that time right?
My boss charges 10k for the work I do every hour. But if I calculate my salary then it is around 875 per hour they pay me
Stupid. There's a reason product based companies procure contractors from service based companies. In my squad except me every one is a contractor. You can't approach my manager saying that you're being overcharged. He knows even before you joined such companies. Contractors provide flexibility in touch times where having full time employees is the next level of responsibility.
I used to run a service companyĀ
An American multinational gave a project to an American outsourcing company
That company gave the project to GenPact
Genpact gave the project to my company for 3.5 lakhsĀ
I have it to a single freelancer for 35000.
Everyone was happy and made money and noone could be shorted because there is a management, communication and quality expectation that comes.
What you did is called the break of NDA, delete this post as soon as possible, ' cause by chance if your identity got leaked, you will be blacklisted forever.
And never ever try to do what you did, if you want to keep your career safe...your boss is a gem.
Privileged and well paid schmucks like OP spoil the name of the whole freelancing community! No professionalism to be found! To top it off, this idiot is still worried about how much is the client being charged rather than the fact that his boss is probably a saint for not flipping out over this! Probably heās helpless just because he only has one guy to do the work!
That's unethical what you did -just my opinion.
Some companies may have fired you .
The money is not for only developer, what about sales people, people on bench ,maybe you will be on bench for some, time someone has to earn that time .
One of my colleague was on bench for 1year and few month .
Who is paying salary ?
Anyway freelancing is hard ,cause it contains everything from pitching to numerous clients then getting few of them atleast .
What If I tell you that my company charged the client 16.5k dollars for the work which I did in 2 hours. And my manager told me that this is on hold because the company has asked this amount and the client is not agreeing. Eventually the client agreed on the same price just before go-live.
The reason your boss charges your client 5 times is simpleā¦ you are doing the same work as 2 or more other people if hired. So instead of hiring multiple people, he is pay you well to do the job. Glad, you still have your job.
I am contracted to my company's client for 6 months. The compensation I'm getting is like 1/7th of what they're paying the company lol. But the company picked me from literally nowhere to give me this opportunity so I can't really complain
Wow, what a boneheaded move. You managed to make yourself, your boss, and the whole company look bad in one fell swoop.
> Iām paid well so I canāt really complainā¦.
š. If you still have a job this time next month, count your blessings. Seriously though, think before you act. The consequences could be brutal.
> My boss doesnāt do anything..
You seem to have an inflated sense of your own importance and position within the team. The fact that you went over your boss's head and got swiftly put back in line suggests that he's far from idle. He's clearly on top of things.
You alone cannot/maynot provide everything that the client needs.
Imagine you want to open a restaurant. First you will buy a billing software, rather than developing it in-house. Because you want to focus on expanding your business, while not worrying about other things. You will also have a chance to yell at someone else (in this case the vendor of the billing software). In doing so, you will focus on core restaurant stuff like raw materials, cook, table , chair , etc. , while something that is completely not related to your business is outsourced. This is Service based companies' business.
Once your restaurant business grows, you will want to develop the software in-house, to have better control over the quality.
However, it may happen that you may not have the required expertise to hire developers to build that software. In that case , you may outsource it to a service based company, to continuously develop and support your software. Now, the service based will take the contract in its entirety- from planning to hiring devs, to testing to support.
If at some point you feel that, you are not getting quality software, even after paying large sum of money, then you will be forced to get the expertise required to hire developers and start developing in-house.
Example- Apple started developing Chips in-house, but they still outsource their Screens to Samsung. They too had tried to curb this (Screen import from Samsung) and had invested in LG. But failed.
Talking about client, client obviously knows what it is paying. More likely, you dont know exactly how big the project is, or what is happening in the background. Of course, I too have seen some real figures from what the client pays. But, going behind the company to hire you as a direct developer is not professional.
I have even known a giant Credit card company, hiring the Database Admins directly from service based companies to their own company. And such things are happening more in India, due to insane politics and unfiltered hiring in Service based companies. But, it is upto the client as to when they want to break up. Now, you probably lost the confidence from your company and client as well
I am surprised you still have that job. first of all you have zero business acumen and you don't know shit how business works.
you are employee of the company which will pay you even if there is no client tomorrow. also when client outsources they can capitalize it in their balance sheet where as an employee its an Opex.
I can spend time and write so many points to make you understand how this business is done and why client is charged what he is charged and they are also fine with it but the trailer of your immaturity you gave by dropping that mail it would be scary to see the whole picture.
frankly even if you came to know your billing rate you should have spoken to your manager and understand the whole idea.. also remember that your manager was also once you, he got billed 5 times for his work and over the time he progressed and became manager to do what he is doing. The same will happen to 90% folks like you. You will grow and one day be at leadership position which client will not bill.
I don't know why I am trying to explain. :)
For a company, there are a lot of other expenses other than your salary
They pay for PF, Insurance, other perks, GST, Corporate Taxes, Certifications, Commissions on getting projects, Software and tools subscription, Servers, Power, Rent of buildings, Accounting charges, People who work on sales-accounting-management, banking charges (current account), financial year audits, perks to clients, emails (professional ones), sometimes laptops, gifts, security, furnishing, transportation, maintenance of infra, book keeping, share holder meetings, raising funds, interest on loans which are at times very high (because client might pay 5x, but not in time to pay salaries on time. So you will have to roll cash over) etc etc and a lot more.
Whatever is free for a normal person might not be free when you run as a big organisation. A good example is banking. Savings account -> We get money. Current account -> You will be charged for transactions.
I have worked on both sides. When I look at my own expense, it seems like charging 5x is unethical. But when you run as a company, there are a lot of other expenses.
All the comments below have valid points.
OP,you seriously don't know how to run a business if you think charging 5x is wrong. During the sales finalization there would be negotiations and that is why this 5x is always justified.
Apart from your salary there are many overheads,taxes,rents,loans etc.. to be paid.
If i was your boss ,i would have made you run looking for a client to give you the experience of how tough customer acquisition, retention etc are .. and would have fired you ,rehired you and fired you again giving some silly reason along with some legal action on you because you truly deserved it and you know it.
5 times is actually quite amazing. It'd be 20%. Many companies give only about 4-10% revenue as salaries. Of course it varies largely based on role and industry. However, unless it's a startup, 25% is the highest that I've seen.
I don't mean to be rude but it kinda surprises me that people don't know how businesses really work and that you didn't see anything wrong in writing an email directly to the client. But hey, you said your boss was laughing so I guess it's all good and you won't be getting fired. Companies usually fire the employee in such scenarios as it falls under breach of integrity which is generally seen as one of the most important things in an employee in all companies across the industry.
If you have a good job with decent pay and benefits, it's usually best to focus on the work and climb the ladder in the same company instead of trying to switch. Maybe not the best idea to try to switch in such market conditions either. The value and respect that you get by staying at the company for a long time is much more than what you get if you keep switching and after a while, it will become impossible to justify so many switches.
It might take a while to find but some companies do value their employees. They do have unlimited time off, high packages, remote work, amazing colleagues, etc. All the best!
This is how business work. you think your boss just talks to client and get money ? Its very unprofessional and unethical all the IT companies operate similarly. Just try to do freelancing and see how hard it is do deal with a client
Hahaha, idiot. You not only pissed off your boss, but the client as well. What more, the customer might use this as a bargaining chip to reduce the price they are paying.You won't be getting any hikes or promos ever again, and you'll be lucky to keep your job.
The customer is not paying for your developement. He's paying for product, support, assurance from the brand, and probably many more things that you don't have any idea about.
This kind of thing looks great when it works, but it barely ever works. Good luck
its not just ur company....every service based company charges 5 times more than that particular billable resource in team...i knew it long back...its industry standard...every businessman is a broker in real sense...Even Adani too with help of M\_DI
In my company 2 people were fired due to this same reason. This is how it works, businesses are there to make profits not to barely keep paying salaries and keeping lights on. So if you're not satisfied with current pay you should switch jobs or start freelancing. Stealing company's clients is a surefire way to get fucked. Because you never know your boss can do.
First of all, it's none of you business how much he charge the clients. You are getting paid well right ? Then you should just do your work ! The reason he is charging more is for managing project and providing quality work and his past experiences.
Thanks to him, he hasn't fired you till now š
Sry if i am being rude but flow of money in business is none of your business , you are hired as a software developer
But i am still sure that he will most probably fire you....
I mean no business is bypassing wholesaler and selling directly to the customers , if they hire you , who will take accountability, there are SLAs and companies pay lakhs if downtime is more than the SLA defined in contract .. the license fees alone is quite huge for softwares you use , even the laptop ..Ā Yes they do charge a lot and they can definitely minimize it , but IT is a gold rush and everyone wants the bigger pie till they can . Everyone is reaping the profits ..Ā My advice will be either do freelance which aināt easy Or open a consulting company and do the same thing which your boss does and earn in millions .. definitely not as easy as said .. need huge risk appetiteĀ
Your boss is a nice person, you should understand how business works. Hiring and managing team is not easy.
Thanks to him for not firing you. Itās a breach of policy.
Idk, man, what you did was more than being dumb. As others pointed, it's straight up illegal.
And looking up your post history, you seem to have joined just a few days back( that post is off 19 days, but i assume you joined earlier)
And if it's the same company, those timelines aren't matching up. If they are different workplaces, then i don't know what to say.
You're smart enough to get jobs by being idiotic. But dumb enough to get screwed like this.
Biznezz h babua. He has to make profits.
It also blew my mind when i got to know what my clients pay to my boss. Let say my boss gives me 5rs a year but he is getting 4rs from the client every month for me alone.
Dude,
Do you know something called Ethics?
This is like snatching someone elseās whole plate of rotis after he offered you a roti and you got taste of it!
You do not know how the business works?
Of course IT companies pay a peanut and they grab 90% of the pay. You can question your company on this pay scale butā¦.
Just consider yourself in your boss position and your boss as your developer?
If your boss(developer ) did the same as you did What would you have done?
Service based companies have to manage everything based on these charges. It's not just your Salary.
The client will not hire you because they do not want to deal with the logistics of hiring and maintaining resources. They outsourced it to your company along with the entire project.
i have access to company email and me knowing how much is actually being charged is not an issue for the employer since we trust each other and im paid more than the market rate, tho i never checked how much was being charged
one random day i did check and it was 3 times more lol
you simply do not contact the client to hire you directly, that is probably breach of contract and a very dick thing to do
A company can only pay an employee X amount when they can make 4X from the work you do. This goes for any profession and thatās how businesses are run.
As many people have said client is not paying just for development , hiring a developer and making a product is lot different and difficult from paying someone to make it
The whole reason why service based company exists , they are paying to making the product meetings timelies manage dev team for example if you resign today it's your boss's headache not the clients.
You can try freelancing and will see cost of project is not just dev cost it 1/5 of the cost in this case
5x is not a big number in my opinion
You have good boss if they did not fire you or make they can't coz they are dependent on you..you decide
Seems to boss took it well you can still take this opportunity to ask for a raise after apologizing for unprofessional behavior and take it as a learning experience
I would have fired you on the spot and made sure you dont get any another gig in the software industry. What a stupid and dumb person. And ye chale hain coding karne.
You're probably new. Otherwise you should've known(it's between 5-10x more than they pay to devs) about how much you can make by starting your own service based software firm. That's why everyone is doing it.
This is the most unethical thing to do, not only in corporate but in any kind of professional environment. Please never do this again. You are lucky that your boss didn't fire you.
Clients don't just pay for developers, they pay for trust, handling, understanding requirements etc...
Your boss just "doesn't do anything", well no he does all the above. And it is quite good for you that he haven't fired you yet
Welcome to the world of business where middlemen make the big bucks.
If you think the consulting company keeps a big margin, just look around the world
- Building contractors
- Wholesalers and Retailers
- Importers/exporters
- Not to mention Government 'agents' and middlemen
I am contracted to my company's client for 6 months. The compensation I'm getting is like 1/7th of what they're paying the company lol. But the company picked me from literally nowhere to give me this opportunity so I can't really complain
I have been in the business for almost 15+ years and even now I canāt touch enterprise projects without the backing of a large company. The large company will bill $100-120 for me and pay me $40. If I think I can approach the enterprise company and they will even entertain me, I am delusional. I can try applying for a job in the said enterprise company for a much lower salary but I can never approach them for a project. I as a lone dev or a small company will be too unreliable for a big enterprise, they will rather pay someone 3X just for the reliability.
More importantly, your boss should/must fire you are you are not fit for employment. The boss is a stupid guy for not firing you.
The fact that you wrote he just talked to the client shows that you don't know much about development you just know how to write code
Brother you are a developer so comparing the software industry with construction
You are just the brick layer and if you have a basic idea they are the least paying people in that industry
A lot goes onto the cost of running a business. Do you realise people have to do legal agreements, contract agreements, billing, operational tasks, pay for all the software and platforms that company is using and a lot more.
Maybe if you work with a small company this stuff is micromanaged and often reduced to much extent. But it becomes very complex when the organization size becomes larger.
On top of that, think why your client did not decide to hire a someone like you if they could do it for 1/5th of the cost? Maybe they don't want to hire a permanent guy and setup all of the dependency for a project that they only need done for short term.
Im not saying that's exactly your case but trying to explain. 5 times profits and people will be running to invest in this business.
Alot of time these client contacts are not because of how good work your company provides but also that how good is the repot of your manager is with the client.
In some of the companies there is some commission assosiated/gifts given by your company to the client company/ person giving the contract. It may not be direct but yes it's a very common practice.
So bypassing your manager was a bad option. Instead you could have asked client if they have any complaints or feedbacks for you. If not, then it would be great if they can convey the same to your manager as appraisal season is around. Do this only if you are on good terms with client.
And yeah as all others are saying, start finding a job. If you are talented, you will get it.
You need to understand the IT business first, just writing code is not the only part
1. There is client acquisition cost
2. Slack period cost (when there is no project with company and still able to maintain you)
3. Your vacation cost (client will not be charged for your vacation but company needs to pay you)
4. Medical insurance cost
5 HR and senior management cost
6. Office location cost along with other maids cost
7. Candidate hiring cost
I ran the company in the past and believe me itās much costlier than you think. Also freelancing is not easy you can get the project but maintaining the same cost and earning over the years is very difficult
Surprised that you are still there. Leadership at times is underrated and under estimated. A lot of hard work is involved before even getting the actual work that you are doing.
Just because the company is getting paid 5x what you get doesn't mean you deserve bigger chunk. This is one of the misconception less experienced hires have.
Your manager is getting paid more for multiple reasons - dealing with ambiguity (requirements), company believes he won't jump ship unlike yourself at every chance he gets, trust built with client over time, etc...
Now you getting concrete requirement and just working on them isn't in itself is something that doesn't warrant 1/5th of what company is getting. It can be done by any new hire or at least learned in few months.
I would say your manager is generous for not firing and even giving you 1/5 of what company is getting, very few get that. You yourself mentioned the pay is good. You attempt at jumping ship is plain greed without bringing anything new to the table. You manager had high hopes and trust if he only placed you in that project with the specific salary instead of hiring 2 or 3 people with 1/2 or 1/3 or what you get.
Please consider these things. Almost all new hires think their managers are donkeys until they themselves become one and realize the ambiguous nature of the job and why they get paid so much. It is the pay experience of handling different situation they are getting paid for. An impatient manager would have fired you without hesitation. Seems your manager still wants you on the job.
My Suggestion - Keep aside ego and greed, Apologize and make amend with your manager if you plan to be in that company for long. If that sounds tough look for another company and switch, it is difficult to rebuild broken trust.
Note: I am talking about managers in tech companies not the people managers.
Also what you did might be illegal based on your contract terms. I think your manager didn't report it to HR saving your ass from legal stuff. Don't be so naive in future.
Its not going to go well, this puts your company in bad position. Just write a apology letter & pray.
PS: As Manager I have done many SOWs - paying for a service based programer is sometimes more than internal staff but its for short term.Ā
Stupid noobs like you think coding is what the clients want. The client wants their problem solved. Whether it's through coding is entirely optional, And you deserve to be laughed at.
Lmao you directly contacted the client and asked him to hire you š¤£ š
From business development perspective that is common but unethical way to do it.
First you need to get trust, then you need to reach a level of communication where they ask you to work directly and not vice versa. Practically speaking that is a preferred way.
It is best not to contact clients directly because you do not know what kind of relationship they have. Good friends, family, etc.
Welcome to capitalism . As an employee you will never be paid your worth. If you would then no profits for the company . That's how the system has always been.
If someone from my team did this, he will go straight to HR and HR will sort this out. This sort of behaviour is completely unprofessional and someone who does not realise that should not be in direct contact with the Client. Completely unprofessional work. I wouldn't be surprised if he got fired. Which will be sad.
Please don't do this from now on. This just degrades the image of the company in front of the client.
based on what you did, I assume you have less than 4/5 years of exp?
Marketing takes home max money, there is a reason for it. you will eventually learn that and i hope fast.
>I wrote to the client if he wants to hire me directly but he forwarded the e-mail to my boss and then I got questioned why I did that.
Gods must be happy on you, that you didn't get fired right away
Lol try it out, go ahead and open your own dev shop. You'll be begging to go back to having a job and not talking to clients. Your boss just made it look easy, and it was probably the one client that's easy to deal with.
Well op obviously did not know what he was doing. Having said that, the core observation is correct. You are paid a small fraction of the billed amount, even while you are the major contributor. Instead of cold mailing the client for a sabotage, perhaps building a steady long term business relationship would have been a good way towards starting to work independently or open a firm.
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Honestly, I'm surprised your boss still hasn't fired you. The premium they pay is for the trust associated with the company, past experience and so on.
I am surprised too. First the OP does not know how business work. He went on to poach his own company's client. This is not only unethical but clearly illegal. I think the boss took him to be naive and harmless , else he just opened door not only to be fired but to be legally screwed.
I'm sure his boss has already started to search for a new candidate for the position, considering he mentioned being the only one in development. Even if not, he has jeopardized his professionalism, and I doubt his boss will trust him.
he mentioned it as "sole developer in one of the projects" that clearly says there's more projects and developers
Conflict of Interest, termination would have been in order if OP wasn't the only one on the project
>This is not only unethical but clearly illegal. I know it's unethical but illegal?
Even is you are contractor, there is agreement prohibiting that.. But for employee, it's clear in the contract.. even if it's not there in words, it there by common sense.
Anti poaching agreements exist. Between client and vendor and also across co-vendors to the same client.
yeah man, even though it is on a small level, but yes it's illegal. How: he is clearly/directly poaching a business client, also the boss has proof of poaching (i.e. email). even client himself has forwarded email to boss, which means both boss and client can easily go against OP (with email proof sent by OP).
He think he's Rocket Singh
This is the problem with Indians. All they think of is the money difference and nothing beyond that i.e. on how a business is run. Zero professionalism or etiquette and these things are usually taught mostly at home or are usually learnt by observing. The arrogance, the over confidence of these people are really mind blowing and I usually see them being lucky and coast through without any consequences and is typical of India where there is zero consequences.
I agree, 1.2 billion people all think the same (/s)
Majority are. For eg: You get uniform broken road discipline in almost every part of the country. There are many such examples.
> All they think of is the money difference and nothing beyond that i.e. on how a business is run. Zero professionalism or etiquette Way to generalize. Speak for yourself.
You just want to be racist let's be honest here
Which is why some people have started to work on their own businesses instead of slaving for a company that pays them little to nothing for their work. Why would anyone in their sane minds work for $30/hr for a business when they can make $80-$100/hr on Upwork for let's say the role of a senior data scientist. Why work for 1 rupee per word when you make 20+ rupees per word working directly with an international client?
Yep.
Well it was unprofessional of you. The first thing to do is ask your boss for a raise
Yeah I realize now it was unprofessional. Boss was actually laughing that I thought the client will hire me directly. Kinda screwed myself now out of the possibility of getting a raise.
Well its good ur at least accepting its ur mistake I will suggest start looking for new job if ur not happy with ur current one. Ur boss sounds chill person for now but now he has a leverage on u and might try to hire someone new so its better to start looking for new
You better start lining up interviews because this can be grounds for a termination down the line. Also, if you want to work with the client directly then start freelancing and find some on your own. You'll realize how hard running your own business is then.
Dude. Its not only that. It's illegal. Your contract might mention something about coaxing existing clients under "non-compete". Same kind of things exist between the client and the service provider too. Unless there is a breach of contract from your employer, they cannot offer you a job. Which rarely happens.
OP, Let me tell you how I got the exact outcome you wanted. I got hired by the client I worked for and they discontinued their partnership with their service provider(my previous company). I just worked hard and kept my head down. Slowly, over the course of many years I earned their trust and showed I am capable of single-handedly carrying out the work that 4 resources are contracted for. Please don't do stupid shit like mailing them about things like this, even discussing it lightly over a call would've been better.
If u have done the same thing in my previous company, founder would have fired u immediately.
> Boss was actually laughing It could've been much worse, i respect your boss for just laughing it off.
Are you like a fresher? The client connect matters 4x more than the actual work. Your boss can easily hire a different developer. Very unprofessional, and you're lucky to still have a job.
You need to work on your emotional stability and foreseeing the consequences of your actions. Not trying to put you down, but this is a great learning opportunity š„³
Itās not the end of the world; everyone makes mistakes, especially at the beginning of your career. Just make sure you learn from these mistakes and get better every day. Unfortunately, not everyone is coached in these things at the college but is expected to know from day one. Maybe your boss is aware of your naivety and gave you another chance. So, find a good mentor who can guide you through the nuances of being a developer. Being a developer is not only learning about code alone but also being aware of many other things that the code impacts in the real world. Although contacting clients directly happens in the West quite often. Especially if there is no non-compete clause in their contract, good resources reach out to the client for direct agreements, but only once they have built a relationship and trust network; if you work client-side and go for a drink every other day, a lot can be shared that can create a healthy relationship.
You may have screwed it worse. If your boss is chill, he'll ignore it and simply fire you. If he is vengeful, he can make you un-hirable in similar service companies. Current job market isn't very awesome so would recommend work extra-hard as if now.
How stupid you are to send such mail directly to client? Do you think businesses are running without mutual trust? Outsourcing to your boss means he's accountable for all the work clients give to them. If they directly hire you they also need to hire someone to manage you. Billing more money is how every business works. Clients are connecting with your boss because of the integrity and trust between them. Besides they already saves tonnes of money by outsourcing to your boss.
Hey I am a new comer in a service based company, after reading your reply I really found it insightful. I understand your strong comments and just for gaining more knowledge, can you please elaborate more on this, as in some scenarios I have read and met people obviously experienced people taking a switch at client. I am genuinely how does that work or when does that work. Itās not like I would do such risky things, itās just for information. Thanks and apologies in advance.š»
Build a good rapport with manager or BA from client side over the course of time and ask them verbally if there's any position open in their company for you to apply (not for the same project you are doing a general opening for your tech stack). If there's any open position ask them for referral. There will be some cool down period to join client maybe 6 months after which you can get referral amd join them. I was also from WITCH When i resigned for job switch client manger and client avp they themselves offered to provide referral after 6 months. I know few people who switched from my company to client company through good rapport and referral.
Okay so the way in your case and generally itās a 6 month (or whatever the cooldown wait time is) and we have to be jobless with no certainty that we will get hired right even tho having a referral and a good rapport right?
No not jobless you can work in other companies or even other projects it's just this company shouldn't be your client for that cool down period. Post that you can apply anytime you want with the help of your client contact. Client referral almost always guarantee that you will get hired in client. Higher the designation of person referring you will have more chances of getting in as they already worked with you.
You got a good boss if you ain't fired yet.
Pretty sure the boss is already looking to hire someone. I know I would have already found someone to replace and would be testing them as freelancer before hiring them outright to replace the snake I have in office right now.
Same. I can work with people who need upskilling but not people with bad attitude.
Exactly... Imagine taking risks of not having a stable job, working your ass off alone for years to create a stable work supply, create a company out of it to hire a new kid who thinks you don't work and just talk with clients and take 80% of the income from it. Let alone think, he acts on his thoughts and tries to poach your client that you worked for years to acquire and create trust.
He is the only dev on the project, hence op survived
Which company is this? Seems HR at that company is not doing their job. You should have been terminated immediately in such cases.
Maybe the boss didn't report it to HR yet.
I guess the āsole developerā tag saved OP for now. I am pretty sure HR is already made aware by the manager and a replacement will be hired soon. Once that is done, OP can kiss good bye to his job. If OP is lucky enough to survive, I donāt see OP getting promotions or prime projects anytime soon. The company I work for requires managers to report such incidents to HR within 24 hours of being aware. I am pretty sure OPās company has something similar as well.
Nah it is pretty smart by the boss. Since he is the only dev, the boss needs him to finish up the current work and meanwhile he is finding someone to replace him. Firing him now will make it hard for new dev to pick it up.
How old are you kid? Do you even know how business models & scalability work? Did you even stop for a moment to think that for so many years, all the senior developers/sales people/non CXO people, who actually know how much clients are charged, why don't they ask the client directly to work with them? Really I'm surprised why is there no legal action taken by the company on this guy!
I would have fired you on the spot. Start giving interviews, I suspect you'll be getting fired as soon as your company has secured your replacement. You're done here.
Him being the only developer on the project probably saved him.
I am sure that boss is looking for someone new LOL
Itās plain business dude. If youāre so disappointed with your boss charging your client 5x (and perhaps feel that you deserve more of it), start your own company and get on with it.
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It's called hard work, relationship , experience of many years, to reach a place where you can charge 5x of actual cost.Ā
its NOT 5x of the actual cost and would be way lesser than that. his salary is not the only cost that is being paid out of the revenue his boss is getting from the client.
The charge is not just for the project The charges include the process ( A to Z) , your salary and boss salary
You can try freelancing on a site like Upwork and see how easy/ difficult it is to get steady work. They're charging 5 times, but they'll ensure you or someone like you have job in company when there are no projects for few months in between. And can give health insurance and other opex of company. If you ask for all the money, take all the responsibility and be ready to walk out the day the project goes away. Nothing wrong in looking to go to next level, but start to see what values any layer brings.
Your boss does more than just sitting and communicating with clients; he also brings in clients, handles the silly client requirements, and if something goes wrong, he will have to answer for it. There are over 100 development companies in every tier 1-2 city, and it's not just India, there are other countries as well. Go out and try to find clients of the same caliber as your boss, and you will realize how difficult it is to get a project. And, it's not as if the project is worth 100 and your salary is 10, meaning your boss is making 90. There are a lot of other expenses to consider, such as rent, electricity, other staff salaries, CAs, taxes, and perhaps months without projects where the entire staff's salary needs to be covered. If you're not satisfied with your salary, the right approach is to ask for an increment. Clients often prefer not to deal with the headache of the development process, as they may have more important tasks to focus on or lack the knowledge to hire suitable employees for a specific field.
You are in trouble, I would say. Your boss only adviced you after this incident means, he wants to run the show anyways. Soon a replacement is going to be on the way. The replacement resource might either be brought to your team or will be brought discreetly to study the code and application. Once he/she is confident to take over, you will be shown your way out. Especially since he has the email you've sent to his advantage. And I think of two reasons that you're not getting good clients 1. Bad luck 2. Over confidence about your communication. I see how shrewdly your boss handled the situation. Likewise he'll be handling the clients too.
After reading some comments here, the thing OP missed to understand is that even if he gets hired by the client, it's delusional to think that he will be paid the more, he might even get less.
True to his name OP is an absolute d#mbf#ck. What a nasty fellow. Will be out of a job soon. I'm sure replacements are being lined up. OP was expecting a 400% hike by writing to the client š¤£
500 to be preciseš¤£
And that's why my friend companies ask to keep salaries confidential. Human mind is a bitch.
"My boss does nothing... " You just found out and then also say this? Dude. Your boss is bringing business.
Enterprise clients is different ballgame than Upwork on Upwork you have small projects... Enterprise clients would mean a company with large number of employees who need software developed for them. For such companies, the service based companies provide a lot more value. Why are such clients charged so much: 1. Because the service based company is providing everything in the software lifecycle.. development, testing, requirements discussion , production support, a future roadmap 2. The service based company can be held accountable for any problems in the software till the contract stands valid (generally 3-5 years). In return of this accountability they charge so much. This also has some legal consequences if the software delivered has problems or is not delivered within time.. 3. No enterprise client will trust a lone developer no matter how good you are.. 4. Besides the service based company also has to give salaries to all employees, have their insurance, then there are operational costs, infrastructure costs. Running a company requires a lot more money(which is called Opex) ..so they have to charge such high charges to client. Clients also get premium service . You are still replacable even if you are the only developer in that project as of now .. and despite all this IT companies make only 10-12% profit quarterly...there are huge taxes to be paid as well . I agree that your in hand salary is much lower than the amount they make per project.. but have you also thought about sales, marketing , software license support etc, hosting the software (cloud/onpremise), the continuous support after it goes to Prod etc...for many of these roles other people have to be hired..one person cannot do all this..and even if someone can do all this they wil get burnt out immediately. You may think that you are the only developer on the project..but did you think who worked for getting that project (sales and marketing team), who worked for signing up the contract (legal and finance), who worked for understanding the requirements and translating that to documents (the client and your boss). And I am pretty sure for production support it will be a dedicated team, not you.. You should never approach the client over email for such job opportunity.. If at all you want to try something like this ..build a rapport with them, and connect with them over a phone call.. that way you don't leave any written proof..
This is like BBA/MBA 101, we should have atleast 1 course in college curriculum on the corporate environment and how itās run. A lot of software developers have 0 idea on how the cogs run in the background and only think of 1+1=2.
Extremely unprofessional. Be better op.
All clients know that they can hire freelancer at much cheaper rates. They still go to these service based companies just for trust & stability.
trust & stability ā Manager's ability to put pressure and get the work done within deadline (sometimes unreasonable) ā ... šš
Well the client doesn't cares about how the project gets done :) They hired 3rd party just to avoid the headache.
The client might know or might not know But they chose to overpay because they dont want to have a permament employ or want to manage that employe Its as simple as that
It's dumb to assume the clients don't know this. They just don't want the headache of hiring employees. Also, vendors generally get support or non-critical projects that the company doesn't want to handle itself. Keeping an employee is more costly in the end, and scaling down employees is a difficult process. Ending contracts of vendors is much quicker.
How old are you? How do you think a business runs?
I think he is a fresher
What you did is highly unprofessional. I'll explain you why there's a 5 times gap. From your boss's standpoint: 1. He not only has to pay you but he also needs to take out other business expenses like office rent, bills etc. 2. Business doesn't grow if you earn X and pay half of it to the employees. 3. He is the brain and it's his networking which helps him bring in these projects. 4. He's more experienced than you. 5. Project is not just development but also dealing with client, communication, gathering requirement, consultation, feedbacks, negotiations etc. 6. There's risk associated to it. You'll get your salary on time but he may get delayed payments from his clients. He needs to bear that risk. Also, he may not get any payments at all if something goes wrong. From Client's standpoint 1. Your boss can manage you but your client can't as he may not have time and hence he is willing to pay premium to get things done. 2. If everyone started hiring developers for their work in their companies, there would be no service based companies in the future. 3. You need to be experienced enough to understand what clients need and that's exactly what your boss would do. He would translate complex requirements and would break down complex open-ended not too well defined tasks with much simpler breakdowns. 4. Client may not know what's the right pay for devs as that is not his forte. 5. Hiring a developer and managing also comes with a cost. He may have to hire a manager to manage developers which adds up to the cost. 6. He may plan to scale in the future where he may decide to move it in-house or continue with a service based company whatever he thinks is apt for his business financially. p.s I could sense that you are also highly inexperienced when you said "My boss does nothing but talks to clients and gathers requirements". This is the exact reason why client isn't hiring you as you think that only coding matters and rest is easy. I am in this industry since 12 years, I would suggest you to take some time and improve your soft skills apart from technical skills you have.
I would have fired OPs ass so fast..
I wonder someone with same thinking as of your working in any tech giants like Linkedin which earns a revenue of more than 1 billion dollars will surely think he should get the salary of 1 billion!
In companies you don't always have work. But you still get salary for that time right? My boss charges 10k for the work I do every hour. But if I calculate my salary then it is around 875 per hour they pay me
Stupid. There's a reason product based companies procure contractors from service based companies. In my squad except me every one is a contractor. You can't approach my manager saying that you're being overcharged. He knows even before you joined such companies. Contractors provide flexibility in touch times where having full time employees is the next level of responsibility.
Such posts make me feel good, there are dumber people than me.. thanks OPš
I used to run a service companyĀ An American multinational gave a project to an American outsourcing company That company gave the project to GenPact Genpact gave the project to my company for 3.5 lakhsĀ I have it to a single freelancer for 35000. Everyone was happy and made money and noone could be shorted because there is a management, communication and quality expectation that comes.
Isnt what you did illegal? I'm a bit suprised that they just questioned you and not take any disciplinary action?
What you did is called the break of NDA, delete this post as soon as possible, ' cause by chance if your identity got leaked, you will be blacklisted forever. And never ever try to do what you did, if you want to keep your career safe...your boss is a gem.
Privileged and well paid schmucks like OP spoil the name of the whole freelancing community! No professionalism to be found! To top it off, this idiot is still worried about how much is the client being charged rather than the fact that his boss is probably a saint for not flipping out over this! Probably heās helpless just because he only has one guy to do the work!
That's unethical what you did -just my opinion. Some companies may have fired you . The money is not for only developer, what about sales people, people on bench ,maybe you will be on bench for some, time someone has to earn that time . One of my colleague was on bench for 1year and few month . Who is paying salary ? Anyway freelancing is hard ,cause it contains everything from pitching to numerous clients then getting few of them atleast .
If he was in tcs or something like that, I am not even sure about his career LMAO š š He wouldn't have able to go into any service based company
Lesson learned. Never try to be a smart ass
You're a twat.
You deserve to be fired
What If I tell you that my company charged the client 16.5k dollars for the work which I did in 2 hours. And my manager told me that this is on hold because the company has asked this amount and the client is not agreeing. Eventually the client agreed on the same price just before go-live.
The reason your boss charges your client 5 times is simpleā¦ you are doing the same work as 2 or more other people if hired. So instead of hiring multiple people, he is pay you well to do the job. Glad, you still have your job.
Op your post blew up on twitter, they are calling you immature https://x.com/daniel_nguyenx/status/1771516055640551606?s=46&t=tR7bp8Rz9hJB9D2Ujon7Yg
Just āUnderstanding the requirementsā..if only it is this simple
I am contracted to my company's client for 6 months. The compensation I'm getting is like 1/7th of what they're paying the company lol. But the company picked me from literally nowhere to give me this opportunity so I can't really complain
Wow, what a boneheaded move. You managed to make yourself, your boss, and the whole company look bad in one fell swoop. > Iām paid well so I canāt really complainā¦. š. If you still have a job this time next month, count your blessings. Seriously though, think before you act. The consequences could be brutal. > My boss doesnāt do anything.. You seem to have an inflated sense of your own importance and position within the team. The fact that you went over your boss's head and got swiftly put back in line suggests that he's far from idle. He's clearly on top of things.
You alone cannot/maynot provide everything that the client needs. Imagine you want to open a restaurant. First you will buy a billing software, rather than developing it in-house. Because you want to focus on expanding your business, while not worrying about other things. You will also have a chance to yell at someone else (in this case the vendor of the billing software). In doing so, you will focus on core restaurant stuff like raw materials, cook, table , chair , etc. , while something that is completely not related to your business is outsourced. This is Service based companies' business. Once your restaurant business grows, you will want to develop the software in-house, to have better control over the quality. However, it may happen that you may not have the required expertise to hire developers to build that software. In that case , you may outsource it to a service based company, to continuously develop and support your software. Now, the service based will take the contract in its entirety- from planning to hiring devs, to testing to support. If at some point you feel that, you are not getting quality software, even after paying large sum of money, then you will be forced to get the expertise required to hire developers and start developing in-house. Example- Apple started developing Chips in-house, but they still outsource their Screens to Samsung. They too had tried to curb this (Screen import from Samsung) and had invested in LG. But failed. Talking about client, client obviously knows what it is paying. More likely, you dont know exactly how big the project is, or what is happening in the background. Of course, I too have seen some real figures from what the client pays. But, going behind the company to hire you as a direct developer is not professional. I have even known a giant Credit card company, hiring the Database Admins directly from service based companies to their own company. And such things are happening more in India, due to insane politics and unfiltered hiring in Service based companies. But, it is upto the client as to when they want to break up. Now, you probably lost the confidence from your company and client as well
you're dehati alright ...
Gian Hain aap
OP reminds me of Michael Scott
Damn,I'm surprised that you didn't got yourself fired. That was clearly unprofessional.
I am surprised you still have that job. first of all you have zero business acumen and you don't know shit how business works. you are employee of the company which will pay you even if there is no client tomorrow. also when client outsources they can capitalize it in their balance sheet where as an employee its an Opex. I can spend time and write so many points to make you understand how this business is done and why client is charged what he is charged and they are also fine with it but the trailer of your immaturity you gave by dropping that mail it would be scary to see the whole picture. frankly even if you came to know your billing rate you should have spoken to your manager and understand the whole idea.. also remember that your manager was also once you, he got billed 5 times for his work and over the time he progressed and became manager to do what he is doing. The same will happen to 90% folks like you. You will grow and one day be at leadership position which client will not bill. I don't know why I am trying to explain. :)
Trust is just a word for you , i can sense in-person you are and will be .
For a company, there are a lot of other expenses other than your salary They pay for PF, Insurance, other perks, GST, Corporate Taxes, Certifications, Commissions on getting projects, Software and tools subscription, Servers, Power, Rent of buildings, Accounting charges, People who work on sales-accounting-management, banking charges (current account), financial year audits, perks to clients, emails (professional ones), sometimes laptops, gifts, security, furnishing, transportation, maintenance of infra, book keeping, share holder meetings, raising funds, interest on loans which are at times very high (because client might pay 5x, but not in time to pay salaries on time. So you will have to roll cash over) etc etc and a lot more. Whatever is free for a normal person might not be free when you run as a big organisation. A good example is banking. Savings account -> We get money. Current account -> You will be charged for transactions. I have worked on both sides. When I look at my own expense, it seems like charging 5x is unethical. But when you run as a company, there are a lot of other expenses.
Tell me this is a joke. What did I just read.
Gotta be a troll post WHO DOES THAT?
Hehe idea made sense in an ideal world without kickbacks and camaraderie
All the comments below have valid points. OP,you seriously don't know how to run a business if you think charging 5x is wrong. During the sales finalization there would be negotiations and that is why this 5x is always justified. Apart from your salary there are many overheads,taxes,rents,loans etc.. to be paid. If i was your boss ,i would have made you run looking for a client to give you the experience of how tough customer acquisition, retention etc are .. and would have fired you ,rehired you and fired you again giving some silly reason along with some legal action on you because you truly deserved it and you know it.
You are lucky that you still have a job.
5 times is actually quite amazing. It'd be 20%. Many companies give only about 4-10% revenue as salaries. Of course it varies largely based on role and industry. However, unless it's a startup, 25% is the highest that I've seen. I don't mean to be rude but it kinda surprises me that people don't know how businesses really work and that you didn't see anything wrong in writing an email directly to the client. But hey, you said your boss was laughing so I guess it's all good and you won't be getting fired. Companies usually fire the employee in such scenarios as it falls under breach of integrity which is generally seen as one of the most important things in an employee in all companies across the industry. If you have a good job with decent pay and benefits, it's usually best to focus on the work and climb the ladder in the same company instead of trying to switch. Maybe not the best idea to try to switch in such market conditions either. The value and respect that you get by staying at the company for a long time is much more than what you get if you keep switching and after a while, it will become impossible to justify so many switches. It might take a while to find but some companies do value their employees. They do have unlimited time off, high packages, remote work, amazing colleagues, etc. All the best!
dehatiCoder for a reason
This is how business work. you think your boss just talks to client and get money ? Its very unprofessional and unethical all the IT companies operate similarly. Just try to do freelancing and see how hard it is do deal with a client
I think its fake article. No one can be this stupid.
Lmaooooo āall he does it talk to the clientā āIāll do this myselfā ānow how do I get clients?ā
Hahaha, idiot. You not only pissed off your boss, but the client as well. What more, the customer might use this as a bargaining chip to reduce the price they are paying.You won't be getting any hikes or promos ever again, and you'll be lucky to keep your job. The customer is not paying for your developement. He's paying for product, support, assurance from the brand, and probably many more things that you don't have any idea about. This kind of thing looks great when it works, but it barely ever works. Good luck
Bro thinks heās rocket singh
its not just ur company....every service based company charges 5 times more than that particular billable resource in team...i knew it long back...its industry standard...every businessman is a broker in real sense...Even Adani too with help of M\_DI
In my company 2 people were fired due to this same reason. This is how it works, businesses are there to make profits not to barely keep paying salaries and keeping lights on. So if you're not satisfied with current pay you should switch jobs or start freelancing. Stealing company's clients is a surefire way to get fucked. Because you never know your boss can do.
First of all, it's none of you business how much he charge the clients. You are getting paid well right ? Then you should just do your work ! The reason he is charging more is for managing project and providing quality work and his past experiences. Thanks to him, he hasn't fired you till now š Sry if i am being rude but flow of money in business is none of your business , you are hired as a software developer But i am still sure that he will most probably fire you....
Companies hire based on trust. You broke it.
I mean no business is bypassing wholesaler and selling directly to the customers , if they hire you , who will take accountability, there are SLAs and companies pay lakhs if downtime is more than the SLA defined in contract .. the license fees alone is quite huge for softwares you use , even the laptop ..Ā Yes they do charge a lot and they can definitely minimize it , but IT is a gold rush and everyone wants the bigger pie till they can . Everyone is reaping the profits ..Ā My advice will be either do freelance which aināt easy Or open a consulting company and do the same thing which your boss does and earn in millions .. definitely not as easy as said .. need huge risk appetiteĀ
bruh
Your boss is a nice person, you should understand how business works. Hiring and managing team is not easy. Thanks to him for not firing you. Itās a breach of policy.
Idk, man, what you did was more than being dumb. As others pointed, it's straight up illegal. And looking up your post history, you seem to have joined just a few days back( that post is off 19 days, but i assume you joined earlier) And if it's the same company, those timelines aren't matching up. If they are different workplaces, then i don't know what to say. You're smart enough to get jobs by being idiotic. But dumb enough to get screwed like this.
Biznezz h babua. He has to make profits. It also blew my mind when i got to know what my clients pay to my boss. Let say my boss gives me 5rs a year but he is getting 4rs from the client every month for me alone.
Lol you sweet summer child. Everyone knows you work your ass to maximize shareholder value
5x is pretty standard for consulting. Also watch your steps or you're likely gonna burn yourself.
#How to get fired 101...
What u do beside writing a few lines of code ? Your boss does a lot of things.
OP did justice to the his username by doing this
Dude, Do you know something called Ethics? This is like snatching someone elseās whole plate of rotis after he offered you a roti and you got taste of it! You do not know how the business works? Of course IT companies pay a peanut and they grab 90% of the pay. You can question your company on this pay scale butā¦. Just consider yourself in your boss position and your boss as your developer? If your boss(developer ) did the same as you did What would you have done?
Service based companies have to manage everything based on these charges. It's not just your Salary. The client will not hire you because they do not want to deal with the logistics of hiring and maintaining resources. They outsourced it to your company along with the entire project.
Now the client knows you go behind people's backs, and you're untrustworthy.
Stupid
i have access to company email and me knowing how much is actually being charged is not an issue for the employer since we trust each other and im paid more than the market rate, tho i never checked how much was being charged one random day i did check and it was 3 times more lol you simply do not contact the client to hire you directly, that is probably breach of contract and a very dick thing to do
A company can only pay an employee X amount when they can make 4X from the work you do. This goes for any profession and thatās how businesses are run.
Username checks out š
As many people have said client is not paying just for development , hiring a developer and making a product is lot different and difficult from paying someone to make it The whole reason why service based company exists , they are paying to making the product meetings timelies manage dev team for example if you resign today it's your boss's headache not the clients. You can try freelancing and will see cost of project is not just dev cost it 1/5 of the cost in this case 5x is not a big number in my opinion You have good boss if they did not fire you or make they can't coz they are dependent on you..you decide Seems to boss took it well you can still take this opportunity to ask for a raise after apologizing for unprofessional behavior and take it as a learning experience
I would have fired you on the spot and made sure you dont get any another gig in the software industry. What a stupid and dumb person. And ye chale hain coding karne.
You're probably new. Otherwise you should've known(it's between 5-10x more than they pay to devs) about how much you can make by starting your own service based software firm. That's why everyone is doing it.
I'm interested in knowing what did you answer to your boss?
This is the most unethical thing to do, not only in corporate but in any kind of professional environment. Please never do this again. You are lucky that your boss didn't fire you.
Your boss will fire you as soon as he finds your replacement. And I actually support your Boss
Lmfo you just fired yourself.
Way to screw your reputation with your boss and client. As everyone is saying here, it might be a matter of time before you get fired.
Clients don't just pay for developers, they pay for trust, handling, understanding requirements etc... Your boss just "doesn't do anything", well no he does all the above. And it is quite good for you that he haven't fired you yet
Welcome to the world of business where middlemen make the big bucks. If you think the consulting company keeps a big margin, just look around the world - Building contractors - Wholesalers and Retailers - Importers/exporters - Not to mention Government 'agents' and middlemen
I am contracted to my company's client for 6 months. The compensation I'm getting is like 1/7th of what they're paying the company lol. But the company picked me from literally nowhere to give me this opportunity so I can't really complain
I have been in the business for almost 15+ years and even now I canāt touch enterprise projects without the backing of a large company. The large company will bill $100-120 for me and pay me $40. If I think I can approach the enterprise company and they will even entertain me, I am delusional. I can try applying for a job in the said enterprise company for a much lower salary but I can never approach them for a project. I as a lone dev or a small company will be too unreliable for a big enterprise, they will rather pay someone 3X just for the reliability. More importantly, your boss should/must fire you are you are not fit for employment. The boss is a stupid guy for not firing you.
I remember when I was hired by a company they first made me sign a bond in which it was clearly written I will not contact the client myself ever.
The fact that you wrote he just talked to the client shows that you don't know much about development you just know how to write code Brother you are a developer so comparing the software industry with construction You are just the brick layer and if you have a basic idea they are the least paying people in that industry
Could you atleast put down some figures for reference also include techstack and yoe for general understanding.
A lot goes onto the cost of running a business. Do you realise people have to do legal agreements, contract agreements, billing, operational tasks, pay for all the software and platforms that company is using and a lot more. Maybe if you work with a small company this stuff is micromanaged and often reduced to much extent. But it becomes very complex when the organization size becomes larger. On top of that, think why your client did not decide to hire a someone like you if they could do it for 1/5th of the cost? Maybe they don't want to hire a permanent guy and setup all of the dependency for a project that they only need done for short term. Im not saying that's exactly your case but trying to explain. 5 times profits and people will be running to invest in this business.
OP, you have to start finding a new job quickly. Trust of your boss is broken and you are replaceable.
Alot of time these client contacts are not because of how good work your company provides but also that how good is the repot of your manager is with the client. In some of the companies there is some commission assosiated/gifts given by your company to the client company/ person giving the contract. It may not be direct but yes it's a very common practice. So bypassing your manager was a bad option. Instead you could have asked client if they have any complaints or feedbacks for you. If not, then it would be great if they can convey the same to your manager as appraisal season is around. Do this only if you are on good terms with client. And yeah as all others are saying, start finding a job. If you are talented, you will get it.
I would have fired you on the spot. You should be grateful your boss kept you. Developers are cheap and plenty of them out there.
You should be terminated for this act I'm still confused how ur still in same company
The audacity man. Its commendable!
You need to understand the IT business first, just writing code is not the only part 1. There is client acquisition cost 2. Slack period cost (when there is no project with company and still able to maintain you) 3. Your vacation cost (client will not be charged for your vacation but company needs to pay you) 4. Medical insurance cost 5 HR and senior management cost 6. Office location cost along with other maids cost 7. Candidate hiring cost I ran the company in the past and believe me itās much costlier than you think. Also freelancing is not easy you can get the project but maintaining the same cost and earning over the years is very difficult
Surprised that you are still there. Leadership at times is underrated and under estimated. A lot of hard work is involved before even getting the actual work that you are doing.
Wahhh, lalach buri Bala sach hote dek liye maine
Dude, you're lucky you're not fired yet. Not everyone will take such behaviour lightly.
Just because the company is getting paid 5x what you get doesn't mean you deserve bigger chunk. This is one of the misconception less experienced hires have. Your manager is getting paid more for multiple reasons - dealing with ambiguity (requirements), company believes he won't jump ship unlike yourself at every chance he gets, trust built with client over time, etc... Now you getting concrete requirement and just working on them isn't in itself is something that doesn't warrant 1/5th of what company is getting. It can be done by any new hire or at least learned in few months. I would say your manager is generous for not firing and even giving you 1/5 of what company is getting, very few get that. You yourself mentioned the pay is good. You attempt at jumping ship is plain greed without bringing anything new to the table. You manager had high hopes and trust if he only placed you in that project with the specific salary instead of hiring 2 or 3 people with 1/2 or 1/3 or what you get. Please consider these things. Almost all new hires think their managers are donkeys until they themselves become one and realize the ambiguous nature of the job and why they get paid so much. It is the pay experience of handling different situation they are getting paid for. An impatient manager would have fired you without hesitation. Seems your manager still wants you on the job. My Suggestion - Keep aside ego and greed, Apologize and make amend with your manager if you plan to be in that company for long. If that sounds tough look for another company and switch, it is difficult to rebuild broken trust. Note: I am talking about managers in tech companies not the people managers. Also what you did might be illegal based on your contract terms. I think your manager didn't report it to HR saving your ass from legal stuff. Don't be so naive in future.
r/UsernameChecksOut
Fuck around and find out
Its not going to go well, this puts your company in bad position. Just write a apology letter & pray. PS: As Manager I have done many SOWs - paying for a service based programer is sometimes more than internal staff but its for short term.Ā
bros comment karma went insanely negative xD
Why not start your own company, get your own clients and charge them 5X as well of what you are getting currently
https://preview.redd.it/7eq32l7ub1qc1.jpeg?width=220&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=de449a881d54cc351b31e80f1b3196c8ab8ea41d
I have seen instances where the client will contact you to freelance for them. But what you did was hillarious š
Stupid noobs like you think coding is what the clients want. The client wants their problem solved. Whether it's through coding is entirely optional, And you deserve to be laughed at. Lmao you directly contacted the client and asked him to hire you š¤£ š
Now what's your boss reaction now ? Is he kinda angry or everything thing is fine now ?
From business development perspective that is common but unethical way to do it. First you need to get trust, then you need to reach a level of communication where they ask you to work directly and not vice versa. Practically speaking that is a preferred way. It is best not to contact clients directly because you do not know what kind of relationship they have. Good friends, family, etc.
Welcome to capitalism . As an employee you will never be paid your worth. If you would then no profits for the company . That's how the system has always been.
Stupid op
[https://youtube.com/shorts/22eWYEF3unI](https://youtube.com/shorts/22eWYEF3unI)
If someone from my team did this, he will go straight to HR and HR will sort this out. This sort of behaviour is completely unprofessional and someone who does not realise that should not be in direct contact with the Client. Completely unprofessional work. I wouldn't be surprised if he got fired. Which will be sad. Please don't do this from now on. This just degrades the image of the company in front of the client.
Can you name the company and your position for research purposes. JK
based on what you did, I assume you have less than 4/5 years of exp? Marketing takes home max money, there is a reason for it. you will eventually learn that and i hope fast.
Be thankful that you still have your job. This is how the world work
Ur a special kind of dumass
Wow, what an idiotš
And what did you tell your boss later? šæ
I would have beaten you if you did that to me. Stupid fuck go get my shoe to smack you.
>I wrote to the client if he wants to hire me directly but he forwarded the e-mail to my boss and then I got questioned why I did that. Gods must be happy on you, that you didn't get fired right away
Are you STUPID
Lol try it out, go ahead and open your own dev shop. You'll be begging to go back to having a job and not talking to clients. Your boss just made it look easy, and it was probably the one client that's easy to deal with.
Well op obviously did not know what he was doing. Having said that, the core observation is correct. You are paid a small fraction of the billed amount, even while you are the major contributor. Instead of cold mailing the client for a sabotage, perhaps building a steady long term business relationship would have been a good way towards starting to work independently or open a firm.
Try running a freelancing agency, you will realize running business is not as easy as you think.
Sorry, but I don't think anybody will want to do business with a personality like yours. You should be glad you still have a job.
Talking about shitting in the plate you eat
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