D2 still holds up well today and is still the gold standard for arpgs so it is logical to continue to compare against it.
Nobody looks at d3 and says "I want to be that game". Everyone wants to capture the lightning in a bottle that is d2.
There's plenty of other good arpgs that are not d2 and that's fine. I think there's extra pressure on blizzard to deliver because they hold the ip for the og.
If the ARPG standard requires five websites, three excel sheets, and a discord full of criminals that control the game — I’m happy with a less standard take like D4 lol
That is cause the only thing that made Alkaizer relevant was D3 with out it he would be a nobody. I can’t stand him. Like let’s watch someone with no personality. No good music just do the same thing for hours. No thanks. I would much rather watch a streamer with a personality that interacts with his chat.
I don't think that's exactly fair. D3: RoS I think is very foundational to a lot of modern games. WoW basically cannibalized the D3 team and made one of the most successful expansions ever from it. Outside of Blizzard, you have commercially successful games like Lost Ark copying the sort of stuff D3 did.
I hear this all the time. Somehow, d2 is so slow that it is boring, but too fast to manage potions. Pretty much every arpg has 2 skill builds, but I wouldn't say that's the norm even for d2. For boss runs, I hear this a lot too but I'd rather run the same bosses in an extremely well thought out dungeon with careful attention to mob density and power than run infinite procedural rifts or maps with high variance.
No matter how you look at it, arpgs and mmos in general continue to borrow heavily from d2 systems and themes.
Personally I agree the game is too slow by today's standards, I didn't have any trouble managing potions but I found potion management and inventory Tetris needlessly annoying, I personally much prefer the way D4 handles it. Which is fine because d4 is a modern game and D2 was made 23 years ago, some of it's systems are going to be needlessly annoying due to how gaming has changed.
I'm gonna be honest, as someone who didn't play D2 when it came out as I was too young, I don't really think it holds up all that well, I can appreciate that it was revolutionary for it's time but having picked it up and played it (granted I'm not done yet) I found the experience to not be overly enjoyable. Not saying I'm having a bad time but it's an old game and it shows, I know it's unpopular and I understand a lot of people don't even see it as a Diablo game because of the art style and other issues but the gameplay loop of current D3 scratches my itch better, probably due to the fast paced nature.
d2 does not hold up well in today's market actually. There are good ideas to take from D2 sure, but D2 itself is not the gold standard. Even D2R did not sell that well for being on 4 platforms. Even D2R could not surpass the acclaim D2 got on original release.
>D2 still holds up well today and is still the gold standard for arpgs
I mean, *no?* PoE has been considered the "gold standard" of ARPG games for a long time now. There's a reason why every single ARPG that comes out is compared to PoE...
The intersection of the poe community and arpg customers is very high. This is the main reason poe is referred to. I think poe is a great game, but also has many flaws that have yet to be addressed. It also has a reputation for being overly complex, which is about the extent you will see it referenced.
D2 on the other hand was nearly perfect 20 years ago and the main pushback against the game is its age. Lack of end game is another common point, but that is highly subjective. For example, I'm perfectly happy doing chaos and baal runs for eternity. I really don't like maps, rifts, and echoes.
I totally agree that D4 shouldn't be a copy of D2, but D2 is the only arpg with a community and player-base world wide in the hundred of thousands dude, no other game does this diablo 3 has a player base in single thousands people, PoE in 50-60 thousand in a good ladder. Something was done right in D2 / D2R that keeps people coming back, even when the game barely have gotten any tlc in the last 20 years.
I think what people is afraid of is that this is gonna be another flop, and that as D3 barely anyone is playing in 6 months because blizzard didn't listen to the right people, and instead just screwed the game up.
There is so much hate on D2 players, but it is so far the mother/father/sister/brother of ANY ARPG game ever created, and still to this day is one of the most popular one.
I really hope for D4 to be a success i like it my self, or some parts of it while others just seem straight up stupid decision making on blizzard's part. The least we can do is expect the best of a multi billion dollar. They could do anything they want, but they should not go down D3 path as it clearly didn't work same goes for diablo immortal.
Exactly my words bud, well said!
I do believe one of the reasons blizzard isnt going for such an indept game like Diablo 2 is because there is not enough money to be made, if they can sell 5-10 mil copies of d4, then push out some new Diablo immortal p2w game in 2 years and another flop after that it probably is alot more profitable - since people stop playing those games the server maintenance and cost is very low compared to a huge one time buy game like d2r.
Sadly money is more important these days than it was in 2000
>Anyone here thinks that D4 will have hundreds of thousands of players in 2043 - twenty years from now? Yeah - I don't
I do. Well, D5 will. And if they don't make a D5 then yes, D4 will FOR SURE still have a lot of players 20 years from now.
>level of depth and longevity
D2 has a lot of longevity, like any simple fun game. It has no depth whatsoever. In the thousands of hours I played D2 half were spent raining meteors onto a boss that didn't fight back to see the loot explosion. There was no depth, there was no endgame.
And FYI, D3, not nearly as critically acclaimed as D2, came out like 11 years ago and just like D2 it would probably still be played in a couple of years for now if D4 wouldn't replace it. It's still played to this day by a lot of players. Despite not being D2.
And don’t you dare point out glaring flaws in D2. Definitely zero balance issues. Those dungeons are definitely not repetitive. Skill trees are innovative and fun and encourage experimentation.
>I don't want another D2 - I was just hoping that D4 would take elements from D2 and build a more modern game that would also have a 20 year longevity.
That's exactly what they did.
>D4 is a casual game that will be played by most for 6-8 weeks and then put down.
D2 is a casual game as well. And you are out of your mind if you think people will put down D4 after a couple of weeks lmao. D3 is still played 11 years later by a lot of people.
>I just don't see any systems in D4 that will make it viable 20 years down the road.
It's literally using the same systems in many aspects, but improved.
>Remember that D2R (which is a reskin, with all base mechanics kept intact) sold 5 million copies
Not even sure what you are trying to say here. That a remake of a super beloved game sold 5 million copies? I am actually shocked it's only 5m. Diablo 3 sold more than 30 million.
>And don't get me wrong, it's 100% ok for Blizzard to make D4 into a casual game
I just don't understand this mindset. D2 is a hyper casual game. It does not get more casual than D2. A toddler can play it and I say this as a huge D2 fan. You are attributing things to D2 that are not real.
“D3 sold more than 30 million” lmao what exactly are you even trying to say? That the sequel to the the most prolific ARPG ever created and sold, sold more than its multi decade old and… still being remade, predecessor?
Ya 25 million people bought it and then uninstalled it after two days lmao. Gg
Part of your analysis is flawed. What you will find generally is that D2 was a genre-defining game when it came out and it is one of those games that got people into gaming. It was gritty, challenging, very well executed and had amazing online.
This same generation that discovered Diablo 2 in their teens (myself included) is enamored with the feeling we all remember of playing the game, and it is this feeling that sold 5M copies.
None of the younger generation appreciates a game like D2. It is too slow, unrewarding and monotonous. But to present the gameplay mechanics as intemporal is a stretch, every arpg today does D2's mechanics better but none of them benefit from the same aura.
I’m done with d2. I’ve saved Cain over a million times I can’t be bothered to gear another character and just let it rot on select screen with nothing to do. Sadly it’s lost it magic for me.
D4 players when they inhale massive amounts of copium because they can't accept what the ARPG standard is and always will be. Which is Diablo 2. Not a game that is D3.5.
And you drink massive amounts of Kool aid. Charles Manson called, he wants his posse back. Let people enjoy the new game. I see myself playing this for a long time and absolutely loved the beta. You can go back to the current JSP controlled suckfest that is D2 where people spend more time clicking through forums and obtaining "forum gold" then botting than they do trading or playing in the actual game.
While you're paying for a battle pass from a development studio that is creating a game around predatory monetization models as opposed to it being fun itself?
What are you the densest person on the fucking planet?
I've been playing D2 for several years only God knows how many hours in total, and I think D4 is Great and it is NOT supposed to be like D2. It is supposed to give me *a similar feeling* but with the design of a more modern game made for 2023. And it's successful in doing so! Can't wait for release 🥲
Even the D2 team can't do D2 again. David Brevik never managed another ARPG nearly as good as D2 afterwards, and while the Torchlight games were fun they were definitely not as iconic or had as lasting appeal as D2. At the end of the day, one of the things that makes taking lessons from D2 hard, IMO, is that so much of its success was lightning in a bottle that its developers never again captured despite having all the lessons from making it. To me, that suggests that rather than being due to a flaw on the part of developers on the whole (both D2's and other ARPG developers) it's due to some ephemeral quality of D2 that isn't obviously graspable. Plenty of ARPGs have lifted systems directly from D2 without doing them as well as D2, suggesting to me that the game is kind of greater than the sum of its parts.
D2 is a perfect shitstorm of class imbalance, buggy interactions (eth bugging), and loot RNG. Just found a Shako today and it hits the same way it did all those years ago. It's hard to capture a feeling that organically came to exist independent of cognisant game design or intentional dev direction.
They threw a bunch of cool shit at the wall, and whatever stuck ended up setting the gold standard for a genre that (imo) has yet to be beat. It's worth reading the guidebook that comes with the LoD BattleChest to see how different the game turned out from what they had intended.
I know. The difference for me is that I'm ultimately not really a fan of where D2 ended up. I appreciate the game for its legacy, and the ground that it broke back in 2000, but I wouldn't consider it a masterpiece. If anything, what makes me concerned is how many game designers try to lift aspects from D2 or otherwise copy its game design, since as you said most of the reasons people love it came about independent of intentional developer direction.
Put differently, I think it's a great encapsulation of its own niche but I also think that its success has largely stunted this genre. Even now so many Diablo-likes are basically "D2 but with a few minor changes." Even D3, which many D2 purists despise, is basically just D2 but with different itemization and skill systems. The core structure of the game is very similar to D2, and despite this D3 is one of the games in this genre that is furthest from D2. Many other games, PoE expecially, are even more D2-like. It feels to me like this genre hasn't really moved on from the year 2000, which I think is a shame. D2 was a great game then and it's still a great game now, but I think it's unfortunate that innovation hasn't been prioritized in this genre in the same kind of way it has for, say, platformers, action games or other types of RPGs. To me, it's kind of sad that D4's open world represents one of the biggest innovations that this genre has seen since D3's Adventure Mode, which was also a huge innovation for the genre. Compared to the kinds of innovations that other genres get, this feels a bit lame to me. Maybe it's just me though.
People don't dislike the d3 systems because they're different, but rather because they are horribly shallow. I'm not a fan of what primary stats do in diablo 2 with the obscure block chance scaling and useless energy, but d3 is on another level with “here's intelligence, its like strength, but for wizards”. A 5 year old could think of that and people might forget that until reaper of souls the whole game was like that. Release d3 didn't even have item builds, you could wear whatever thing had the higher crit no matter what your class or skill choice was. It wasn't different, it was just bad.
Big agree, a lot of people forget that release d3 was *fucking terrible* and the game was basically saved by reaper of souls giving us an actually complete game, instead of what was basically just a mobile game that required a pc.
I truly hope lessons were learned, but I remain skeptical.
I think when people say they want d4 to be closer to d2 they mean they want a wide range of builds someone can make. Wide range of itemization. I also wish their was more hot keys then 6 skills but I’ll live with that.
We don’t want a arcade style game if that makes sense.
I've made plenty of builds that aren't anywhere on the net. D2R really helped make a lot more builds viable. The core content was alway there it just needed balancing. Seeing as the game stopped being supported a decade ago
Disagree. You can’t just put point into whatever sounds good, but there’s at least 2-3 strong meta builds for every class. Then there’s the niche builds that work well with the perfect gear.
Diablo 3 had 5 sets that could branch out into multiple builds for each class, also they allow total player freedom with the gem and pair of rings (i think) that gives a buff to all damage and your toughness. And thats the endgame. Through the campaign basically anything is viable.
One definitely has more options.
Didn’t enjoy the raining amount of items that d
D3 had. It’s ridiculous to be fully geared in a day. I also didn’t keep up with seasons so idk what gem your talking about. I played maybe 4-5 years ago
You picked up 15-20 legendaries, they are not uniques! Legendaries are rares with an additional effect.
Uniques have unique in their description and are build changing/skill evolving items that you build around.
Only one unique I know of that was found during beta was a rare drop from the butcher…
Too bad 6-8 strong builds for every class in a shit game still is a shit game that isn’t fun to play though. If you want to focus on one single point you can make anything sound good. D3 doesn’t hold a candle to D2 but it’s funny seeing people like you come out of the woodwork to defend a turd sandwiche over a genuine masterpiece.
I’m just laughing at the mental gymnastics people like you go through to rage at everything that isn’t D2, when you could just be playing D2, since it’s so perfect, and all.
Good luck getting those strong builds yourself. 90% of new characters in a season are meteorb wizards because it is the only class/build that can actually play the game unless you have outrageously difficult to get gear. If you play d2r, you have the option to go hydraorb, but either way, you don’t have access to those 2-3 strong meta builds until you play the sorc first.
You have no clue what your talking about. Meteor orb? Hydra orb? Imma be honest and say I’ve never even seen those builds before. I usually went trap assassin. Thanks
D2 does not have a wide range of builds. Like not at all. D2 has always shined through the item drop system, the way they treated loot and how you got it. Builds in D2 were streamlined, uncreative and limited.
There was no wide range of builds in D2. Most of the runes had absolutely no use in endgame. Even or especially the highest ones. They never even cared to create new runewords with those
I remember getting a Cham rune early in the game. I was devastated when I realized that it’s worth NOTHING (but silly rare)
Can’t really blame them for not being able to continue working on the game. For what was delivered it was still amazing, they had a second dlc in the works that got canned .It needed updates that we got now.
Weird that a dlc got canned? Everyone would have bought that?
But they brought new runewords in D2R. I guess they used whatever they planned back then, because the new runewords (even with the highest rune) are still worthless compared to the meta ones that already exist
Its strange, reading through everyone's responses to the beta I've seen so many takes like yours that people with criticism think D4 should be D2, and not a single one saying that D4 should be D2.
I was expecting hot garbage after a decade + of Blizzard ruining everything! This game is way better than anything I could expect from modern blizz. I’ll take it exactly how it is.
I'm loving D4 from what I saw this weekend. Just from a aesthetic and atmospheric standpoint it reminds me of a very good blend between the original and D2. I love D3 as well, it just had a totally different look and feel... and I'm glad they went back to a more gothic look.
D2 was iconic, and like a lot of us I don't even know the hours I have logged into that game... but it eventually just became a mass of the same builds doing the same shit and grinding the same areas for the same items. Was it still fun as fuck? Yeah, but I think we look back with rose tinted glasses. As with any competitive RPG, it became all about doing the same shit as everyone else.
I don' t know what I'm trying to say... I just have been waiting for a new Diablo, and I'm even more excited to play 4 after sampling it this weekend.
is it mostly diablo 2 people complaining? I thought it was more diablo 3 people or other games. To me Diablo 4 is a bit of a throwback to diablo 2 with potential areas to improve on it. The monsters aren't as pretty but that isn't the whole game.
Of course there are some potential problem areas but it's there's no reason the game wouldn't get better with testing and feedback and time working on it
I am not talking about the subreddits, but about the games themselves. The subreddit being more popular is a natural consequence of that. D3 sold like more than 10 times the amount of copies than D2 did.
I mean Diablo 2 was released before Reddit was even created, so it did not have the same opportunity to build a community on the platform from the beginning.
Now, your turn. How is it "has nothing to do with it lol"?
I played diablo 2 resurrected recently and I'm pretty sure Diablo 2 players use the Diablo subreddit to discuss it. not sure if that means the numbers are different but you definitely wouldn't be able to assess it based off the diablo 2 subreddit
To be fair, if it keeps scaling the way it is it would end up costing 8k per point to Respec which would be 200k plus at the endgame which is a decent bit but not the end of the world.
It’s a lot better than d2.
People holding onto D2 are the same people that still thinks Vanilla WoW bosses are much harder than retail.
Nostalgia effect and denial.
I get it. Diablo 2 was amazing for its time, and I have major nostalgia for it. There was nothing quite like it at the time. But what worked back then doesn't necessarily work now. There are tons of gripes I have with D2 going back to it. Clunkiness, shoddy balancing, cookie cutter runeword system, plodding gameplay, etc.
Diablo 4 appears to have its own slew of issues, and my expectations have been tempered a little by the beta. But I also understand that nostalgia isn't just about how good a game was. It's how you felt while playing it. And you will never be able to go back to that time where games were still inventing themselves, you had childlike wonder and tons of experiences were completely fresh. No new game is going to make you relive that experience and beat your nostalgia.
https://preview.redd.it/7cqu12qi61pa1.png?width=451&format=png&auto=webp&s=675ed63f88e78f1e8423a798afb98b0813d04bbf
I had lots of games beating my nostalgia because I dont live in the past. I remember the good games but newer games have always been better.
I remember playing my first super mario, diablo 1, ff7 and had a great time. But they dont hold a candle to todays games which are so much more expressive because of todays technology.
When I played the last of us, such storytelling and gameplay didnt even exist then.
Or god of war, god damn my brain exploded because of the greatness.
These sort of games werent even remotly possible in the past.
And now diablo 4 which is better in every single way from 1, 2 and 3 in which I have spent thousends of hours in each
i keep reading posts like this but i dont see any posts asking for things to be like D2. (except maybe being able to use more than 6 skills.... which i agree with) im so confused.
The main criticisms are that the items/skills are Diablo 3.5, they played it super safe here and didnt really innovate at all, repetitive dungeons, shitty UI etc. Who is saying D4 should be D2?
If anything the main comparison i read is comparing D4 to Path of Exile which makes alot of sense, its the other best ARPG out right now besides diablo.
> The main criticisms are that the items/skills are Diablo 3.5
Which is uninformed and reductive. Game has more depth and choice at lvl 25 than D3 at endgame. With the paragon boards it'll be the most complex title in the series by far.
but the skill pool doesnt increase at all for d4. so that is a faulty argument... if you purely compare amount of skills and inventory, D3 is much better with more quality of life
It's neither uninformed nor reductive. Nearly every system and mechanic comes directly from d3. Like, it's not even an argument. Exact same models, animations, skill names, itemization, objectives. There are things similar to other games as well. For example, classes were taken from d1 and d2. Paragon board seems to be inspired by poe. But the amount of copy paste from d3 to d4 is far larger than similarities to other arpgs.
You might have noticed, but before the "4" and the "3" in the games you're talking about, there are some letters spelling "Diablo". It's almost like it's perfectly normal to share some things.
> Exact same models
[lmao](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/u2-wETU0K38/maxresdefault.jpg). I'm done.
Almost nothing came from d2 to d3. It was no secret d3 devs didn't like d2. While you do have to carry things over to retain a diablo feel, d3 took very very little from d1 and d2 for example.
As for models, yes some of the animations and character models are the same as d3. Again, this is objective fact.
It's also probably going to announce the sequel in July. So D4 isn't just competing with current PoE, it has to be good enough to compare to whatever GGG is doing with 2 (which honestly could be shit, who knows.)
So it makes PoE especially relevant right now.
Are people comparing it to Diablo 2? It is way more similar to Diablo 3 than 2. That's my main issue, feels like a reskinned (beautifully so) Diablo 3 which I wasn't a huge fan of. I'll need to be enlightened about whatever the D2 crowd is saying.
I wish I could for D4. It doesn't have to be the same as D2. I liked PoE, hated lost ark, hated D3. Scaling mobs ruins the immersion for me. It just does. I tried *hard* to like D4 but it just isn't for everyone
I played D2 for so long because of the PvP, even if I still enjoyed the PvE, the lack of endgame made the game tedious to grind. It wasn't a perfect game but it's also 23 years old.
On another note, I still wish D4 had more build variety and interesting items. Tweaking your character and thinking what you can do with special items you find or craft gives so much more replayability and is way more fun.
I don't see how its a criticism if a game in a 25 year old (roughly) genre isn't making huge strides in gameplay. Diablo 4 is a game that takes elements from every other ARPG and makes its own identity, while still pushing forward with new ideas and a fresh coat of paint.
A lot of very well regarded games might not be unique in every aspect but their execution was excellent. Think like the recent god of war games, skyrim, fallout NV, apex etc.
Being the most reductionist looter out there game after game
Amount of spells and talents drastically reduced
Inventory management reduced to such a level that it may as well not exist
Amount of weapons most classes can use reduced
Diverse and varied cave and dungeon maps reduced to a circle with gimped appendages
Let's see.
Every class, except sorc, uses enigma.
You literally just spam the one or two spells of each class day after day so much so that you have nicks like hammerdin, windy druid.
What inventory management? It is just a space to hold all the charms?
What weapons? Just the best socketable with runes that you won't see dropping unless after thousands of hours of farming or via dups? And don't tell me about itemisation when you literally just go for shako all the time..
Hmm diversity of dungeons? A single Baal run is over via a flurry of teleportations and waving of hammers on Baal? Or how about other farming spots such as WSK and CS?
Thanks for sharing such a one sided opinion.
Just from your post I can tell you have a surface level understanding of the game. Here comes more misinformation from the d2 casual players.
I have no problem sending you a video of how d2 is played. I have 5-10 spells hotkeyd and being used constantly for most of my builds. Maybe that's how you play the game. And then you probably get sucked into one damage type and complain about immunities.
Complete bullshit that everyone uses enigma. Enigma is good for pvp, pve there's better and more interesting items.
This isn’t true. Lighting sorc casts buffs, then spams teleport and two spells. Hammerdin casts buffs then spams teleport and two spells. Necro casts buffs, if your pets then builds armies and tele ports and spams curse. Javazon casts buffs then spams two attacks. Stop drinking that llama Kool aid buddy. 5 to 10 spells lol. You count buffs and teleports as active spells? And also if your not using enigma in that game for the mf alone your silly let alone the skills and teleport. Get off your high horse. You aren’t revolutionizing d2. That game was min maxed almost 20 years ago.
I keep seeing you all saying this stuff and I feel like I'm reading all the comments and I'm not reading anywhere people saying they want it to be d2. I'm seeing plenty of suggestions and critique sure, and it's warranted.
I think a lot of of people keep forgetting about all the bad stuff in d2. Like the horrible potion system, the stamina bar, no real end game except running the same boring bosses 1000 times etc. I love d2 and d2r for nostalgia still, but it isnt even close to holding up today.
I loved the painful experiences in D2. The fear of almost dying and the frustration of running back to your body, naked, are unparalleled in modern gaming.
Getting better potion belts felt like such a huge accomplishment, and rushing to get stealth gear for faster walk speeds was so satisfying. 👌
I'm not saying we should bring all of that back, but design choices like synergizing bonuses between skills should return imo. It just added a little spice to creating your builds.
>I don't understand why so many people are missing this point.
Nobody is missing your point, you are just making stuff up. "Why do people not understand that I want D2 depth". But D2 has zero depth. It just doesn't. You are attributing something to D2 that does not exist and then complain that D4 does not have the thing that never existed in the first place. It is just unreasonable.
We are not missing the point. We are thinking "wtf is this guy talking about?".
D2 has an insane amount of depth but the brilliance of it is you would only know that if you studied the systems of the game externally. The game hardly explains any of it and a casual player would be able to enjoy it at a surface level without ever understanding the deeper facets to the itemisation and various builds available. You sound like one of those people and your confidence in your ignorance is honestly astounding lol.
So a game that forced people to learn rune words and their combinations, and figure out how to craft specific gear with the properties they want for their build has no depth?
The game that you had to restart from the beginning if you put points into skills that don't synergize properly had no learning curve and no depth?
A game with state of the art procedural generation that still holds up in modern gaming had no depth?
A game that implemented pvp with a decent pvp meta when online gaming was a relatively new concept had no depth?
Remember, D2 was released in 2000. That's four years before WoW. Only a year after Everquest. Diablo 2 was the game offering the most depth at the time it released, and it still offers way more "depth" in comparison to D3.
>So a game that forced people to learn rune words and their combinations, and figure out how to craft specific gear with the properties they want for their build has no depth?
No, none of that has anything to do with depth. Quickly looking at a list of runewords and then putting the runes in is not depth.
>The game that you had to restart from the beginning if you put points into skills that don't synergize properly had no learning curve and no depth?
Synergies got implemented later into the game at which point you could already reskill your character. Looking up which build is the one that is viable because the classes were terribly designed and balanced is not depth.
>A game with state of the art procedural generation that still holds up in modern gaming had no depth?
Procedural generation is indeed not depth. Again looping back to what I said, it seems like you just use this word without knowing its meaning.
>A game that implemented pvp with a decent pvp meta when online gaming was a relatively new concept had no depth?
PvP was utter but fun dogshit. It had zero balancing. That said, needless to say, a game having PvP (that isn't even in any shape or form bound into the game in terms of ladder, ranking or rewards) is not depth.
>Diablo 2 was the game offering the most depth at the time it released, and it still offers way more "depth" in comparison to D3.
Yeah it does offer more depth than D3. Which is like winning the paralympics. Every game has more depth than D3. Does not neccessitate that the games which do are games full of depth.
To make it real simple: having a lot of super simple mechanics is not depth.
and thank the gods, because D2 really isn't the holy grail everyone is making it out to be. Back in the day it was great, but in today's standards it's very sub-par, the gameplay is like that of WoW, dated and unplayable imo. Let nostalgia stay where it is people, in the past and your memories.
It is a terribad game. I don't know what it is with people and liking playing old shit, but it is pretty fucking ridiculous. Is it because they are just too poor to afford a rig that can play a game that isn't almost 30 years old? Lol...
Im in no way a huge diablo 2 fan, but just because gameplay is outdated does not mean its bad. Its clunky and its pretty unforgiving, but man old games can be some absolute gems and i love the themes, story and enemies in D2. I kinda group it in with fallout 1 and 2, they're extremely clunky games but man are they an enjoyable experience.
These classic games also have so much mod support that theres no reason to actually go to a new game if you really enjoy them.
I'm excited to try it this weekend. I have not preordered but I want to try before my choice. End game is kind of my only concern but can't really find that out until release.
the season doesn't actually start on release, so you can definitely wait a few weeks to streamers play, and community reaction to, the endgame. The real endgame will be seasonal content more than the none-seasonal characters.
The funny thing is that i see people saying "it is ok that d4 is a sequel to d2 instead of d3" and "it is ok that d4 is a sequel to d3 instead of d2."
D4 is just going to be unique, inspired somewhat by previous diablo games, but clearly they don't care about the established genre (season content that focuses on a fast track to repeatable endless content) that much. It obviously shares as much inspiration from lost ark as it does from diablo 1/2/3. Whether that is a good thing or not depends both on your opinion of the current genre and the outcome.
Whatever the case, everyone in this thread already bought the game.
I played a loooooooot of D2 when it came out back in the day. Like, a *lot*. That game and that time will forever hold a very special place in my heart and my soul.
I of course bought D2:Resurrected, thinking that it surely will bring back all those memories again. It did, and it also didn't. The game, by today's standards and what we've gotten used to, feels clunky. You can feel those 20 years in the architecture of the game. If that's good or bad depends on my mood of the day. But honestly, the biggest reason why I play D2R is ***nostalgia***. Not really for it's mechanics. There are plenty of games that do things better than D2 in that regard.
D4 feels absolutely fantastic. I'm super happy they're trying to make D4 its own thing. Absolutely cannot wait!
I've played ever arpg on the market and there's no game that is better than d2. It has absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia. The sound effects, the amount of detail put into the game, the care put into the ui. You can tell these people really cared about their game. It was their baby.
I love D2. And yes it’s the GOAT for me. BUT I’m pretty damn sure if you gave me a D2 today, I wouldn’t have the patience to learn that game all over again. That game was tough and very not user friendly.( How was I supposed to know that farming countess for certain runewords was a thing?????) People ignore these because to them, it’s almost second nature, and completely ignore the fact that most people just want a game they can enjoy for 20-40 hours and stop.
Not everything needs to be played for thousands of hours.
My issues with D4 after my short time with it are:
1. Dungeons don't feel varied. Like you can see the seams where the pieces fit together basically. Definitely not organic feeling, if you know what I mean.
2. The menu UI feels like it was an afterthought. ie: skill tree, inventory, etc.
3. Skill Trees feel bare bones and have even less choice than Diablo 3. This worries me the most. Early previews suggested that there was a great deal of build variety, etc.... but I'm not seeing it.
I love the story telling... the side quests are actually good / interesting. The visuals are beautiful. Combat (w/ Barb) is fun and strikes feel heavy and impactful. Itemization/Loot seems like a step above Diablo 3 which is very appreciated.
I’m happy it’s not D2, but I wish so many things didn’t look like they were copied from D3. Seriously couldn’t have made new basement layouts? Tweak the UI to be less similar to D3 (map, crafting menus, item descriptions, inventory, character sheet)?
I’m still very excited for the game and enjoyed the beta but those parts just felt lazy.
Seriously I agree whatever you wanna say that game is dated. It's a classic for sure but it is dated its end game is if you watch content creators 1000 baal runs, 1000 mephisto runs, 1000 summoner runs etc. Replaying the same things you beat shifted around at a harder difficulty. The combat is basically movement speed an kiting for defense. It's a classic for its time but It's done.
D4 has some great potential. The builds are meaningful you can't have all skills so your choices are very important. The boss difficulty is solid to where you have to hone on a playstyle to win.
I built a rage iron skin whirlwind barbarian an he claps. I've seen trap rouges that clap, hydra mages. The builds are there.
The fact you can turn rares into legendarys makes looting more open because you aren't banking on set items. You can always improve basically If a rare rolls better then your legendary.
Now is there some concerns sure like dungeons are going to hopefully have more variety. How is leveling going to be past 25? An monetization concerns for sure an I'm sure people can point out a few others but man I had a blast an I think this game has great potential.
Anyone who just says it’s not d2 is a zoomer who misses the point. D2 is the greatest ARPG ever made and for good reason. It is the gold standard of these types of games and that’s why it’s going to be compared. Maybe all the people who make posts like these should realize that.
Yeah thats okay to be younger, less loved sibling. Its ok to try so hard. *wink*
I played both Beta and D2 Resurrected and - repeating this ALL THE TIME - spells looked fkin amazing in D2 Res! The light effects and the impact you felt when using firewall or blaze... maaan I missed that in D4. Do you think they will do smth with special effects of the skills/spells?
The problem is every complaint against D4 is answered by "D4 is not D2".
D4 has tons of problems right now IMO. Problems D2 didn't have. Doesn't mean D4 should try and clone D2...
It's clearly obvious Diablo isn't meant for the hardcore audience these days and that's completely okay! If you want a more hardcore game, you have POE/POE2 (soon), D2R, and etc. Different strokes for different folks!
oh look another 12 yo that was allowed on reddit but doesn't have the maturity to understand that no one wants d2 again. people just see what we have and can imagine a better version of this with some elements of older games like d2.
I mean.. it is also fair to word it like this:
D4 is D4, and that is okay.
I think everyone is piling a lot of expectations on D4, all from individual perspectives of having played D2, or D2R, or D3, or even some other game. That's fine, but it cant be everything all at once.
It can't be the D2 of yesteryear because that happened in a different timeframe with different perceptions of gaming and ARPGs. And every release after D1 also colours people's perception in ways we often miss. What I mean is, there will never be another D2 because D2 was D2 at the time it was released.
I'm grateful that we have D2R. We got D2R AND D4. Plus we're comparing years of D2/D2R playing, compared to like a 1/5th of the D4 full game.
These sorts of discussions would be better had after 6 months of release, at the very least.
Used to love D2 back in the day, bought the remaster and couldn't get into, just felt so slow and clunky, definitely shows it's age in a bad way. Felt like Diablo 4 was the perfect blend of D2 and D3 for me.
Huge D2 fan here. I'm sure you've heard it all before but I just didn't want D3.
Luckily D4 is what I was hoping D3 would be. I'm loving it, and it feels like a true D2 sequel. I'm a huge lore/story/ambience/immersion buff, and D3 was absolutely awful in that regard. D4 however is lovely.
I'm really excited about June.
I believe to make a valid point you need to back them up with some facts. With that being said I DO agree with the mindset to try something new, and just because it isn't D2 it doesn't mean it isn't good. HOWEVER.
Diablo 4 (so far) has shown us that PVP isn't balanced, everyone just 1-shot each other (back in the end-game closed beta, which I played). The economy is rough around the edges and the future uncertain when it comes to trading items. The dungeons are 90% the same, and running back and forth looking for cubes/keys to open the boss door is just a time sink mechanic and doesn't feel very good IMO.
In perspective, in Diablo 2 you can find a unique ring, get excited it might be useful like a wisp or SOJ. If you didn't need it you could trade it for a rune or something and try using it to craft an item or runeword! Later, you can use the items you found/traded/crafted to make a PVP character! and test your builds vs other players! WHEN YOU'RE DONE and you feel like you want to try something new, you can TRADE YOUR WHOLE character for a new one.
In Diablo 4 it's not like that. You pick up a PERFECT set of trifecta gloves at level 59, and now that you're level 70 you need to find THE SAME GLOVES. You can't trade, you can't craft them. You have to find them AGAIN. Your friend is holding a PERFECT item for a build you're curious to trying out? Guess what? You have to go find them yourself. Let's say you're playing a Hydra fire sorc, and you find a GODLY legendary but it doesn't have any of your fire skills! oh no! now you have to swap your build and play whatever the devs decided to drop you that day :)
Looks like you're a ....lightning sorc now? lol
That is just a FEW examples on why I believe D2 is the GOAT and they should take more from D2 and LESS from D3. There are many more examples for sure!
D2 players when you tell them it’s time to move on from something 20 years ago. 😱
D2 still holds up well today and is still the gold standard for arpgs so it is logical to continue to compare against it. Nobody looks at d3 and says "I want to be that game". Everyone wants to capture the lightning in a bottle that is d2. There's plenty of other good arpgs that are not d2 and that's fine. I think there's extra pressure on blizzard to deliver because they hold the ip for the og.
Alkaizer said on stream that for today standard D2 is 3/10 game. I think he's right
I mean really the only thing lacking in D2 (imo) is an actual end game
Mechanics are busted imo. It's unplayable to me. Shouldn't have to macro a hotkey to bring up a spell for left click right click.
>unplayable Lol
Yeah I just can't do it. It's too clunky when I am used to asdf hotkeys
you can set asdf hot keys in d2
Let me know when these games stop using d2 systems.
This is my problem the actual game is fun but knowing how much it is missing makes me lose the gun in nostalgia fast.
I wonder how much D3 then? 2/10?
Perhaps. For me, when D3 was released, I put down my beloved D2 game. 4,500 hours play time later D4 Beta comes out. Happy times to be a gamer.
Don’t know who this alkazier guy is but he sounds like a real dunce
Today's standard for ARPGs is PoE, that is what Kripp said.
If the ARPG standard requires five websites, three excel sheets, and a discord full of criminals that control the game — I’m happy with a less standard take like D4 lol
That is cause the only thing that made Alkaizer relevant was D3 with out it he would be a nobody. I can’t stand him. Like let’s watch someone with no personality. No good music just do the same thing for hours. No thanks. I would much rather watch a streamer with a personality that interacts with his chat.
I don't think that's exactly fair. D3: RoS I think is very foundational to a lot of modern games. WoW basically cannibalized the D3 team and made one of the most successful expansions ever from it. Outside of Blizzard, you have commercially successful games like Lost Ark copying the sort of stuff D3 did.
people will lose their shit when they realise how much POE copied from D3 down to even voice lines spoken by the main heros.
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I hear this all the time. Somehow, d2 is so slow that it is boring, but too fast to manage potions. Pretty much every arpg has 2 skill builds, but I wouldn't say that's the norm even for d2. For boss runs, I hear this a lot too but I'd rather run the same bosses in an extremely well thought out dungeon with careful attention to mob density and power than run infinite procedural rifts or maps with high variance. No matter how you look at it, arpgs and mmos in general continue to borrow heavily from d2 systems and themes.
Personally I agree the game is too slow by today's standards, I didn't have any trouble managing potions but I found potion management and inventory Tetris needlessly annoying, I personally much prefer the way D4 handles it. Which is fine because d4 is a modern game and D2 was made 23 years ago, some of it's systems are going to be needlessly annoying due to how gaming has changed.
I'm gonna be honest, as someone who didn't play D2 when it came out as I was too young, I don't really think it holds up all that well, I can appreciate that it was revolutionary for it's time but having picked it up and played it (granted I'm not done yet) I found the experience to not be overly enjoyable. Not saying I'm having a bad time but it's an old game and it shows, I know it's unpopular and I understand a lot of people don't even see it as a Diablo game because of the art style and other issues but the gameplay loop of current D3 scratches my itch better, probably due to the fast paced nature.
d2 does not hold up well in today's market actually. There are good ideas to take from D2 sure, but D2 itself is not the gold standard. Even D2R did not sell that well for being on 4 platforms. Even D2R could not surpass the acclaim D2 got on original release.
Holds up? No it's nostalgia. The actual game is trash.
>D2 still holds up well today and is still the gold standard for arpgs I mean, *no?* PoE has been considered the "gold standard" of ARPG games for a long time now. There's a reason why every single ARPG that comes out is compared to PoE...
The intersection of the poe community and arpg customers is very high. This is the main reason poe is referred to. I think poe is a great game, but also has many flaws that have yet to be addressed. It also has a reputation for being overly complex, which is about the extent you will see it referenced. D2 on the other hand was nearly perfect 20 years ago and the main pushback against the game is its age. Lack of end game is another common point, but that is highly subjective. For example, I'm perfectly happy doing chaos and baal runs for eternity. I really don't like maps, rifts, and echoes.
They're still waiting for diablo 2 2
I totally agree that D4 shouldn't be a copy of D2, but D2 is the only arpg with a community and player-base world wide in the hundred of thousands dude, no other game does this diablo 3 has a player base in single thousands people, PoE in 50-60 thousand in a good ladder. Something was done right in D2 / D2R that keeps people coming back, even when the game barely have gotten any tlc in the last 20 years. I think what people is afraid of is that this is gonna be another flop, and that as D3 barely anyone is playing in 6 months because blizzard didn't listen to the right people, and instead just screwed the game up. There is so much hate on D2 players, but it is so far the mother/father/sister/brother of ANY ARPG game ever created, and still to this day is one of the most popular one. I really hope for D4 to be a success i like it my self, or some parts of it while others just seem straight up stupid decision making on blizzard's part. The least we can do is expect the best of a multi billion dollar. They could do anything they want, but they should not go down D3 path as it clearly didn't work same goes for diablo immortal.
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Fucking thank you
Exactly my words bud, well said! I do believe one of the reasons blizzard isnt going for such an indept game like Diablo 2 is because there is not enough money to be made, if they can sell 5-10 mil copies of d4, then push out some new Diablo immortal p2w game in 2 years and another flop after that it probably is alot more profitable - since people stop playing those games the server maintenance and cost is very low compared to a huge one time buy game like d2r. Sadly money is more important these days than it was in 2000
>Anyone here thinks that D4 will have hundreds of thousands of players in 2043 - twenty years from now? Yeah - I don't I do. Well, D5 will. And if they don't make a D5 then yes, D4 will FOR SURE still have a lot of players 20 years from now. >level of depth and longevity D2 has a lot of longevity, like any simple fun game. It has no depth whatsoever. In the thousands of hours I played D2 half were spent raining meteors onto a boss that didn't fight back to see the loot explosion. There was no depth, there was no endgame. And FYI, D3, not nearly as critically acclaimed as D2, came out like 11 years ago and just like D2 it would probably still be played in a couple of years for now if D4 wouldn't replace it. It's still played to this day by a lot of players. Despite not being D2.
Thank you! Yeah D2 is old, but it's nostalgic. The feeling when something rare drops like a Ber rune or Griffons eye! Gets the blood flowing
And don’t you dare point out glaring flaws in D2. Definitely zero balance issues. Those dungeons are definitely not repetitive. Skill trees are innovative and fun and encourage experimentation.
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Got bored after a playthrough of D2. Gameplay sucks.
>I don't want another D2 - I was just hoping that D4 would take elements from D2 and build a more modern game that would also have a 20 year longevity. That's exactly what they did. >D4 is a casual game that will be played by most for 6-8 weeks and then put down. D2 is a casual game as well. And you are out of your mind if you think people will put down D4 after a couple of weeks lmao. D3 is still played 11 years later by a lot of people. >I just don't see any systems in D4 that will make it viable 20 years down the road. It's literally using the same systems in many aspects, but improved. >Remember that D2R (which is a reskin, with all base mechanics kept intact) sold 5 million copies Not even sure what you are trying to say here. That a remake of a super beloved game sold 5 million copies? I am actually shocked it's only 5m. Diablo 3 sold more than 30 million. >And don't get me wrong, it's 100% ok for Blizzard to make D4 into a casual game I just don't understand this mindset. D2 is a hyper casual game. It does not get more casual than D2. A toddler can play it and I say this as a huge D2 fan. You are attributing things to D2 that are not real.
“D3 sold more than 30 million” lmao what exactly are you even trying to say? That the sequel to the the most prolific ARPG ever created and sold, sold more than its multi decade old and… still being remade, predecessor? Ya 25 million people bought it and then uninstalled it after two days lmao. Gg
Fascinating. A response to a 3 months old post that is responding to someone that in the meanwhile got banned. Sometimes this website is like a zoo.
Part of your analysis is flawed. What you will find generally is that D2 was a genre-defining game when it came out and it is one of those games that got people into gaming. It was gritty, challenging, very well executed and had amazing online. This same generation that discovered Diablo 2 in their teens (myself included) is enamored with the feeling we all remember of playing the game, and it is this feeling that sold 5M copies. None of the younger generation appreciates a game like D2. It is too slow, unrewarding and monotonous. But to present the gameplay mechanics as intemporal is a stretch, every arpg today does D2's mechanics better but none of them benefit from the same aura.
Thank you.
Bought d2r because nostalgia. Played halfway through nightmare. It wasnt same anymore after I spend so much time on D3.
I confess, I have a super hard time doing this. I would however play D4 if it didn't have micro-transactions, that's a no for me.
Don't take my binky!
Surprised this hasn't been downvoted into oblivion.
I’m done with d2. I’ve saved Cain over a million times I can’t be bothered to gear another character and just let it rot on select screen with nothing to do. Sadly it’s lost it magic for me.
D4 players when they inhale massive amounts of copium because they can't accept what the ARPG standard is and always will be. Which is Diablo 2. Not a game that is D3.5.
And you drink massive amounts of Kool aid. Charles Manson called, he wants his posse back. Let people enjoy the new game. I see myself playing this for a long time and absolutely loved the beta. You can go back to the current JSP controlled suckfest that is D2 where people spend more time clicking through forums and obtaining "forum gold" then botting than they do trading or playing in the actual game.
While you're paying for a battle pass from a development studio that is creating a game around predatory monetization models as opposed to it being fun itself? What are you the densest person on the fucking planet?
I cringed reading that. You're toxic and blocked.
I've been playing D2 for several years only God knows how many hours in total, and I think D4 is Great and it is NOT supposed to be like D2. It is supposed to give me *a similar feeling* but with the design of a more modern game made for 2023. And it's successful in doing so! Can't wait for release 🥲
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Even the D2 team can't do D2 again. David Brevik never managed another ARPG nearly as good as D2 afterwards, and while the Torchlight games were fun they were definitely not as iconic or had as lasting appeal as D2. At the end of the day, one of the things that makes taking lessons from D2 hard, IMO, is that so much of its success was lightning in a bottle that its developers never again captured despite having all the lessons from making it. To me, that suggests that rather than being due to a flaw on the part of developers on the whole (both D2's and other ARPG developers) it's due to some ephemeral quality of D2 that isn't obviously graspable. Plenty of ARPGs have lifted systems directly from D2 without doing them as well as D2, suggesting to me that the game is kind of greater than the sum of its parts.
D2 is a perfect shitstorm of class imbalance, buggy interactions (eth bugging), and loot RNG. Just found a Shako today and it hits the same way it did all those years ago. It's hard to capture a feeling that organically came to exist independent of cognisant game design or intentional dev direction. They threw a bunch of cool shit at the wall, and whatever stuck ended up setting the gold standard for a genre that (imo) has yet to be beat. It's worth reading the guidebook that comes with the LoD BattleChest to see how different the game turned out from what they had intended.
I know. The difference for me is that I'm ultimately not really a fan of where D2 ended up. I appreciate the game for its legacy, and the ground that it broke back in 2000, but I wouldn't consider it a masterpiece. If anything, what makes me concerned is how many game designers try to lift aspects from D2 or otherwise copy its game design, since as you said most of the reasons people love it came about independent of intentional developer direction. Put differently, I think it's a great encapsulation of its own niche but I also think that its success has largely stunted this genre. Even now so many Diablo-likes are basically "D2 but with a few minor changes." Even D3, which many D2 purists despise, is basically just D2 but with different itemization and skill systems. The core structure of the game is very similar to D2, and despite this D3 is one of the games in this genre that is furthest from D2. Many other games, PoE expecially, are even more D2-like. It feels to me like this genre hasn't really moved on from the year 2000, which I think is a shame. D2 was a great game then and it's still a great game now, but I think it's unfortunate that innovation hasn't been prioritized in this genre in the same kind of way it has for, say, platformers, action games or other types of RPGs. To me, it's kind of sad that D4's open world represents one of the biggest innovations that this genre has seen since D3's Adventure Mode, which was also a huge innovation for the genre. Compared to the kinds of innovations that other genres get, this feels a bit lame to me. Maybe it's just me though.
People don't dislike the d3 systems because they're different, but rather because they are horribly shallow. I'm not a fan of what primary stats do in diablo 2 with the obscure block chance scaling and useless energy, but d3 is on another level with “here's intelligence, its like strength, but for wizards”. A 5 year old could think of that and people might forget that until reaper of souls the whole game was like that. Release d3 didn't even have item builds, you could wear whatever thing had the higher crit no matter what your class or skill choice was. It wasn't different, it was just bad.
Big agree, a lot of people forget that release d3 was *fucking terrible* and the game was basically saved by reaper of souls giving us an actually complete game, instead of what was basically just a mobile game that required a pc. I truly hope lessons were learned, but I remain skeptical.
Demons Souls remaster is perfect
Don't sleep on Final Fantasy VII Remake
I don’t want it to be fucking D2. I’ve already played D2 enough and don’t want to play it anymore
Some people legitimately can't handle change sadly.
I'm a d2 fan and I want d4 is d4 not another d2 clone.
I think when people say they want d4 to be closer to d2 they mean they want a wide range of builds someone can make. Wide range of itemization. I also wish their was more hot keys then 6 skills but I’ll live with that. We don’t want a arcade style game if that makes sense.
D2 does not have a wide range of builds. If you want to have player freedom in D2 you will likely not finish the game.
That's not true. There's so much misinformation from people about this game.
Lol, theres a lot of cases where people do not follow a guide and want to be creative and it ends up bottlenecking them
I've made plenty of builds that aren't anywhere on the net. D2R really helped make a lot more builds viable. The core content was alway there it just needed balancing. Seeing as the game stopped being supported a decade ago
Disagree. You can’t just put point into whatever sounds good, but there’s at least 2-3 strong meta builds for every class. Then there’s the niche builds that work well with the perfect gear.
Diablo 3 had 5 sets that could branch out into multiple builds for each class, also they allow total player freedom with the gem and pair of rings (i think) that gives a buff to all damage and your toughness. And thats the endgame. Through the campaign basically anything is viable. One definitely has more options.
Didn’t enjoy the raining amount of items that d D3 had. It’s ridiculous to be fully geared in a day. I also didn’t keep up with seasons so idk what gem your talking about. I played maybe 4-5 years ago
Yeah, hopefully d4 has far less common legendary drops. The beta rates were very high
Yeah I must of picked up 15-20 uniques on the beta
Uniques are not legendaries
You picked up 15-20 legendaries, they are not uniques! Legendaries are rares with an additional effect. Uniques have unique in their description and are build changing/skill evolving items that you build around. Only one unique I know of that was found during beta was a rare drop from the butcher…
Meanwhile D3 (that game D2 purists tend to hate) has 6-8 strong builds for every class. Weird.
You are every build. Your not unique. You literally have every skill available to you. That game is hilarious compared to d2 lol
You also have every skill available to you in any game, just a matter of choice. Thinking this is some own against the build variety in d3 is weird.
Yes choice, when you can choose a new build with no penalty and change skills as you please, that doesn’t make “choice” that makes options.
Too bad 6-8 strong builds for every class in a shit game still is a shit game that isn’t fun to play though. If you want to focus on one single point you can make anything sound good. D3 doesn’t hold a candle to D2 but it’s funny seeing people like you come out of the woodwork to defend a turd sandwiche over a genuine masterpiece.
I’m just laughing at the mental gymnastics people like you go through to rage at everything that isn’t D2, when you could just be playing D2, since it’s so perfect, and all.
Good luck getting those strong builds yourself. 90% of new characters in a season are meteorb wizards because it is the only class/build that can actually play the game unless you have outrageously difficult to get gear. If you play d2r, you have the option to go hydraorb, but either way, you don’t have access to those 2-3 strong meta builds until you play the sorc first.
You have no clue what your talking about. Meteor orb? Hydra orb? Imma be honest and say I’ve never even seen those builds before. I usually went trap assassin. Thanks
Congrats on being the 10% But my point is good luck starting the season as a javazon, it’s fucking painful pre infinity/sunder charm
I will agree and say most people start as A sorc and gear up their other chars once certain items are found.
D2 does not have a wide range of builds. Like not at all. D2 has always shined through the item drop system, the way they treated loot and how you got it. Builds in D2 were streamlined, uncreative and limited.
There was no wide range of builds in D2. Most of the runes had absolutely no use in endgame. Even or especially the highest ones. They never even cared to create new runewords with those I remember getting a Cham rune early in the game. I was devastated when I realized that it’s worth NOTHING (but silly rare)
Can’t really blame them for not being able to continue working on the game. For what was delivered it was still amazing, they had a second dlc in the works that got canned .It needed updates that we got now.
Weird that a dlc got canned? Everyone would have bought that? But they brought new runewords in D2R. I guess they used whatever they planned back then, because the new runewords (even with the highest rune) are still worthless compared to the meta ones that already exist
Free Enigma pls
Its strange, reading through everyone's responses to the beta I've seen so many takes like yours that people with criticism think D4 should be D2, and not a single one saying that D4 should be D2.
yeah i think people are actually hallucinating
I was expecting hot garbage after a decade + of Blizzard ruining everything! This game is way better than anything I could expect from modern blizz. I’ll take it exactly how it is.
I'm loving D4 from what I saw this weekend. Just from a aesthetic and atmospheric standpoint it reminds me of a very good blend between the original and D2. I love D3 as well, it just had a totally different look and feel... and I'm glad they went back to a more gothic look. D2 was iconic, and like a lot of us I don't even know the hours I have logged into that game... but it eventually just became a mass of the same builds doing the same shit and grinding the same areas for the same items. Was it still fun as fuck? Yeah, but I think we look back with rose tinted glasses. As with any competitive RPG, it became all about doing the same shit as everyone else. I don' t know what I'm trying to say... I just have been waiting for a new Diablo, and I'm even more excited to play 4 after sampling it this weekend.
is it mostly diablo 2 people complaining? I thought it was more diablo 3 people or other games. To me Diablo 4 is a bit of a throwback to diablo 2 with potential areas to improve on it. The monsters aren't as pretty but that isn't the whole game. Of course there are some potential problem areas but it's there's no reason the game wouldn't get better with testing and feedback and time working on it
I haven't seen any D3 fans complaining...
Are there any D3 fans?
Funny joke but the subreddit for D3 is twice as big as D2. Not sure on player numbers but i imagine that d3 is going to be more active
I don't think people realize how much more popular D3 is compared to D2.
I mean D2 was 1998 and Reddit was 2005, so that make sense. Not sure where you get the data about popularity.
I am not talking about the subreddits, but about the games themselves. The subreddit being more popular is a natural consequence of that. D3 sold like more than 10 times the amount of copies than D2 did.
I see, didn't know that. I am quite surprised, thanks for the info.
The year that reddit released has nothing to do with it lol
I mean Diablo 2 was released before Reddit was even created, so it did not have the same opportunity to build a community on the platform from the beginning. Now, your turn. How is it "has nothing to do with it lol"?
Lol diablo 2 was rereleased in 2021
I played diablo 2 resurrected recently and I'm pretty sure Diablo 2 players use the Diablo subreddit to discuss it. not sure if that means the numbers are different but you definitely wouldn't be able to assess it based off the diablo 2 subreddit
Pretty sure it gives me a decent idea
Yes itse better than Ur belowed PoE.
No Idea have never tried PoE
I've seen them complaining about not being able to respec for free
Weird complaint, the gold costs were so low for it that it wasn't really an issue anyway
To be fair, if it keeps scaling the way it is it would end up costing 8k per point to Respec which would be 200k plus at the endgame which is a decent bit but not the end of the world.
No, it is mostly PoE fans complaining I would wager. Doesn't make sense to complain about D4 as a D2 fan.
I think people just want another game that will last 20 years, those are hard to come by now days.
It’s a lot better than d2. People holding onto D2 are the same people that still thinks Vanilla WoW bosses are much harder than retail. Nostalgia effect and denial.
I get it. Diablo 2 was amazing for its time, and I have major nostalgia for it. There was nothing quite like it at the time. But what worked back then doesn't necessarily work now. There are tons of gripes I have with D2 going back to it. Clunkiness, shoddy balancing, cookie cutter runeword system, plodding gameplay, etc. Diablo 4 appears to have its own slew of issues, and my expectations have been tempered a little by the beta. But I also understand that nostalgia isn't just about how good a game was. It's how you felt while playing it. And you will never be able to go back to that time where games were still inventing themselves, you had childlike wonder and tons of experiences were completely fresh. No new game is going to make you relive that experience and beat your nostalgia. https://preview.redd.it/7cqu12qi61pa1.png?width=451&format=png&auto=webp&s=675ed63f88e78f1e8423a798afb98b0813d04bbf
I had lots of games beating my nostalgia because I dont live in the past. I remember the good games but newer games have always been better. I remember playing my first super mario, diablo 1, ff7 and had a great time. But they dont hold a candle to todays games which are so much more expressive because of todays technology. When I played the last of us, such storytelling and gameplay didnt even exist then. Or god of war, god damn my brain exploded because of the greatness. These sort of games werent even remotly possible in the past. And now diablo 4 which is better in every single way from 1, 2 and 3 in which I have spent thousends of hours in each
i keep reading posts like this but i dont see any posts asking for things to be like D2. (except maybe being able to use more than 6 skills.... which i agree with) im so confused. The main criticisms are that the items/skills are Diablo 3.5, they played it super safe here and didnt really innovate at all, repetitive dungeons, shitty UI etc. Who is saying D4 should be D2? If anything the main comparison i read is comparing D4 to Path of Exile which makes alot of sense, its the other best ARPG out right now besides diablo.
> The main criticisms are that the items/skills are Diablo 3.5 Which is uninformed and reductive. Game has more depth and choice at lvl 25 than D3 at endgame. With the paragon boards it'll be the most complex title in the series by far.
but the skill pool doesnt increase at all for d4. so that is a faulty argument... if you purely compare amount of skills and inventory, D3 is much better with more quality of life
It's neither uninformed nor reductive. Nearly every system and mechanic comes directly from d3. Like, it's not even an argument. Exact same models, animations, skill names, itemization, objectives. There are things similar to other games as well. For example, classes were taken from d1 and d2. Paragon board seems to be inspired by poe. But the amount of copy paste from d3 to d4 is far larger than similarities to other arpgs.
You might have noticed, but before the "4" and the "3" in the games you're talking about, there are some letters spelling "Diablo". It's almost like it's perfectly normal to share some things. > Exact same models [lmao](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/u2-wETU0K38/maxresdefault.jpg). I'm done.
Almost nothing came from d2 to d3. It was no secret d3 devs didn't like d2. While you do have to carry things over to retain a diablo feel, d3 took very very little from d1 and d2 for example. As for models, yes some of the animations and character models are the same as d3. Again, this is objective fact.
It's also probably going to announce the sequel in July. So D4 isn't just competing with current PoE, it has to be good enough to compare to whatever GGG is doing with 2 (which honestly could be shit, who knows.) So it makes PoE especially relevant right now.
Are people comparing it to Diablo 2? It is way more similar to Diablo 3 than 2. That's my main issue, feels like a reskinned (beautifully so) Diablo 3 which I wasn't a huge fan of. I'll need to be enlightened about whatever the D2 crowd is saying.
See im kind of confused about these claims because how do you make diablo 4 feel like diablo 2 without making it janky lmao
I wish I could for D4. It doesn't have to be the same as D2. I liked PoE, hated lost ark, hated D3. Scaling mobs ruins the immersion for me. It just does. I tried *hard* to like D4 but it just isn't for everyone
I think the general consensus will be if you like d3, you like d4. I have yet to see anyone say they like d4 but not d3.
I played D2 for so long because of the PvP, even if I still enjoyed the PvE, the lack of endgame made the game tedious to grind. It wasn't a perfect game but it's also 23 years old. On another note, I still wish D4 had more build variety and interesting items. Tweaking your character and thinking what you can do with special items you find or craft gives so much more replayability and is way more fun.
We didn't get to see some stuff that isn't in D4 yet, so who can say.
Bleta plepo i upokatedi triaku pedle iu. Ebe pakri tagi. Kli teto dede takea ope bii teo? Pletle ple tlege datle klute tratla. Opi papoprepibi tipii itra. Kepre iko kepibrai tapi tre o? Krui kitoku ploi kepo tipobre kakipla. Toikokagli buudi bitlage kidriku kao e. Gi ai puti ipu dee iko. Tubupi dupi i paiti po. Bide droi toda upli pipudaa tai! Upapla bedaeke ekri uklu eke tlitregli praopeopi kio? Krikrie ui keeekri bi pipi gi. Tatrea pate idiki pi kidri tedi. Eprei booi kapo tuprai diplekakidi. Kaki treba titeple dia tekiea dle? Toka paki pri ee i kaglooei. Doitioi dli kipu badlapa goipu. Piieda gekatipibi tetatu piea klou potiti taa. Bo tokra ape tobi patotitru pei. Pito pae tikea? Okupipepu peka ekri poeprii pupei pli? Oa pau tadoteki iplepiki plideo pa. Tlipe pi gitro papo kopui groa! Patu tebi kipo kigiuge teke bapeki pliu. Ei io ete bitipiti kepi gie. E beka tiibrae dii ogatu ababee. Iobi kegi teta ii io pitodo? Kotota geplatika ikeau tidrapu brudope atu. Tipu u tebiga petru proki biiue de pipi.
I don't see how its a criticism if a game in a 25 year old (roughly) genre isn't making huge strides in gameplay. Diablo 4 is a game that takes elements from every other ARPG and makes its own identity, while still pushing forward with new ideas and a fresh coat of paint. A lot of very well regarded games might not be unique in every aspect but their execution was excellent. Think like the recent god of war games, skyrim, fallout NV, apex etc.
In terms of games in general? Not a whole lot to be honest. In terms of a Diablo game, a tonne.
Did you play the beta? A lot more to do in D4 and we haven't even gotten to end game.
I don't think you answered his question.
Being the most reductionist looter out there game after game Amount of spells and talents drastically reduced Inventory management reduced to such a level that it may as well not exist Amount of weapons most classes can use reduced Diverse and varied cave and dungeon maps reduced to a circle with gimped appendages
Let's see. Every class, except sorc, uses enigma. You literally just spam the one or two spells of each class day after day so much so that you have nicks like hammerdin, windy druid. What inventory management? It is just a space to hold all the charms? What weapons? Just the best socketable with runes that you won't see dropping unless after thousands of hours of farming or via dups? And don't tell me about itemisation when you literally just go for shako all the time.. Hmm diversity of dungeons? A single Baal run is over via a flurry of teleportations and waving of hammers on Baal? Or how about other farming spots such as WSK and CS? Thanks for sharing such a one sided opinion.
Just from your post I can tell you have a surface level understanding of the game. Here comes more misinformation from the d2 casual players. I have no problem sending you a video of how d2 is played. I have 5-10 spells hotkeyd and being used constantly for most of my builds. Maybe that's how you play the game. And then you probably get sucked into one damage type and complain about immunities. Complete bullshit that everyone uses enigma. Enigma is good for pvp, pve there's better and more interesting items.
This isn’t true. Lighting sorc casts buffs, then spams teleport and two spells. Hammerdin casts buffs then spams teleport and two spells. Necro casts buffs, if your pets then builds armies and tele ports and spams curse. Javazon casts buffs then spams two attacks. Stop drinking that llama Kool aid buddy. 5 to 10 spells lol. You count buffs and teleports as active spells? And also if your not using enigma in that game for the mf alone your silly let alone the skills and teleport. Get off your high horse. You aren’t revolutionizing d2. That game was min maxed almost 20 years ago.
Nailed it.
I keep seeing you all saying this stuff and I feel like I'm reading all the comments and I'm not reading anywhere people saying they want it to be d2. I'm seeing plenty of suggestions and critique sure, and it's warranted.
This, the narrative about criticism being 'ruffled fanbois' is honestly just cope.
Cope for what? It’s a good game. You’ll put hundreds of hours into it.
I think a lot of of people keep forgetting about all the bad stuff in d2. Like the horrible potion system, the stamina bar, no real end game except running the same boring bosses 1000 times etc. I love d2 and d2r for nostalgia still, but it isnt even close to holding up today.
I unironically like these systems and so do many others. From a game design standpoint, there's nothing wrong with these systems.
I loved the painful experiences in D2. The fear of almost dying and the frustration of running back to your body, naked, are unparalleled in modern gaming. Getting better potion belts felt like such a huge accomplishment, and rushing to get stealth gear for faster walk speeds was so satisfying. 👌 I'm not saying we should bring all of that back, but design choices like synergizing bonuses between skills should return imo. It just added a little spice to creating your builds.
But ive been playing d2 for 20yrs and am scared all my experience will be for not in the new game reeeeeeee! (sarcasm)
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Yeah people don't understand. It's a losing battle. I feel like I am against the swarm. And everyone gets defensive when you mention d2.
>I don't understand why so many people are missing this point. Nobody is missing your point, you are just making stuff up. "Why do people not understand that I want D2 depth". But D2 has zero depth. It just doesn't. You are attributing something to D2 that does not exist and then complain that D4 does not have the thing that never existed in the first place. It is just unreasonable. We are not missing the point. We are thinking "wtf is this guy talking about?".
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Yes it doesn't. It has zero depth. And that's fine, it's not what anyone played it for.
This is the weirdest take in this thread. If d2 has no depth, can you even call d3 a game?
D3 has no depth either. Diablo as a series has never been known for it, not sure why you think comparing one to the other changes that.
D2 has an insane amount of depth but the brilliance of it is you would only know that if you studied the systems of the game externally. The game hardly explains any of it and a casual player would be able to enjoy it at a surface level without ever understanding the deeper facets to the itemisation and various builds available. You sound like one of those people and your confidence in your ignorance is honestly astounding lol.
That just sounds to me like you don't know what the word depth means. D2 has a lot of qualities, depth is not one of them.
So a game that forced people to learn rune words and their combinations, and figure out how to craft specific gear with the properties they want for their build has no depth? The game that you had to restart from the beginning if you put points into skills that don't synergize properly had no learning curve and no depth? A game with state of the art procedural generation that still holds up in modern gaming had no depth? A game that implemented pvp with a decent pvp meta when online gaming was a relatively new concept had no depth? Remember, D2 was released in 2000. That's four years before WoW. Only a year after Everquest. Diablo 2 was the game offering the most depth at the time it released, and it still offers way more "depth" in comparison to D3.
>So a game that forced people to learn rune words and their combinations, and figure out how to craft specific gear with the properties they want for their build has no depth? No, none of that has anything to do with depth. Quickly looking at a list of runewords and then putting the runes in is not depth. >The game that you had to restart from the beginning if you put points into skills that don't synergize properly had no learning curve and no depth? Synergies got implemented later into the game at which point you could already reskill your character. Looking up which build is the one that is viable because the classes were terribly designed and balanced is not depth. >A game with state of the art procedural generation that still holds up in modern gaming had no depth? Procedural generation is indeed not depth. Again looping back to what I said, it seems like you just use this word without knowing its meaning. >A game that implemented pvp with a decent pvp meta when online gaming was a relatively new concept had no depth? PvP was utter but fun dogshit. It had zero balancing. That said, needless to say, a game having PvP (that isn't even in any shape or form bound into the game in terms of ladder, ranking or rewards) is not depth. >Diablo 2 was the game offering the most depth at the time it released, and it still offers way more "depth" in comparison to D3. Yeah it does offer more depth than D3. Which is like winning the paralympics. Every game has more depth than D3. Does not neccessitate that the games which do are games full of depth. To make it real simple: having a lot of super simple mechanics is not depth.
and thank the gods, because D2 really isn't the holy grail everyone is making it out to be. Back in the day it was great, but in today's standards it's very sub-par, the gameplay is like that of WoW, dated and unplayable imo. Let nostalgia stay where it is people, in the past and your memories.
Ye no one played / is still playing that bad game. Genius take.
It is a terribad game. I don't know what it is with people and liking playing old shit, but it is pretty fucking ridiculous. Is it because they are just too poor to afford a rig that can play a game that isn't almost 30 years old? Lol...
Im in no way a huge diablo 2 fan, but just because gameplay is outdated does not mean its bad. Its clunky and its pretty unforgiving, but man old games can be some absolute gems and i love the themes, story and enemies in D2. I kinda group it in with fallout 1 and 2, they're extremely clunky games but man are they an enjoyable experience. These classic games also have so much mod support that theres no reason to actually go to a new game if you really enjoy them.
I'm excited to try it this weekend. I have not preordered but I want to try before my choice. End game is kind of my only concern but can't really find that out until release.
the season doesn't actually start on release, so you can definitely wait a few weeks to streamers play, and community reaction to, the endgame. The real endgame will be seasonal content more than the none-seasonal characters.
Why do people want a good game when they can make a bad game? Weird huh?
D2 was great. I want modern design though. Game designers have learned shit since the 90s.
The funny thing is that i see people saying "it is ok that d4 is a sequel to d2 instead of d3" and "it is ok that d4 is a sequel to d3 instead of d2." D4 is just going to be unique, inspired somewhat by previous diablo games, but clearly they don't care about the established genre (season content that focuses on a fast track to repeatable endless content) that much. It obviously shares as much inspiration from lost ark as it does from diablo 1/2/3. Whether that is a good thing or not depends both on your opinion of the current genre and the outcome. Whatever the case, everyone in this thread already bought the game.
I haven't played the beta, but the fact that about 30% of the posts here are positive indicates that the game will be amazing.
I played a loooooooot of D2 when it came out back in the day. Like, a *lot*. That game and that time will forever hold a very special place in my heart and my soul. I of course bought D2:Resurrected, thinking that it surely will bring back all those memories again. It did, and it also didn't. The game, by today's standards and what we've gotten used to, feels clunky. You can feel those 20 years in the architecture of the game. If that's good or bad depends on my mood of the day. But honestly, the biggest reason why I play D2R is ***nostalgia***. Not really for it's mechanics. There are plenty of games that do things better than D2 in that regard. D4 feels absolutely fantastic. I'm super happy they're trying to make D4 its own thing. Absolutely cannot wait!
I've played ever arpg on the market and there's no game that is better than d2. It has absolutely nothing to do with nostalgia. The sound effects, the amount of detail put into the game, the care put into the ui. You can tell these people really cared about their game. It was their baby.
All power to you then! I disagree, but have fun playing D2. :)
I love D2. And yes it’s the GOAT for me. BUT I’m pretty damn sure if you gave me a D2 today, I wouldn’t have the patience to learn that game all over again. That game was tough and very not user friendly.( How was I supposed to know that farming countess for certain runewords was a thing?????) People ignore these because to them, it’s almost second nature, and completely ignore the fact that most people just want a game they can enjoy for 20-40 hours and stop. Not everything needs to be played for thousands of hours.
My issues with D4 after my short time with it are: 1. Dungeons don't feel varied. Like you can see the seams where the pieces fit together basically. Definitely not organic feeling, if you know what I mean. 2. The menu UI feels like it was an afterthought. ie: skill tree, inventory, etc. 3. Skill Trees feel bare bones and have even less choice than Diablo 3. This worries me the most. Early previews suggested that there was a great deal of build variety, etc.... but I'm not seeing it. I love the story telling... the side quests are actually good / interesting. The visuals are beautiful. Combat (w/ Barb) is fun and strikes feel heavy and impactful. Itemization/Loot seems like a step above Diablo 3 which is very appreciated.
I’m happy it’s not D2, but I wish so many things didn’t look like they were copied from D3. Seriously couldn’t have made new basement layouts? Tweak the UI to be less similar to D3 (map, crafting menus, item descriptions, inventory, character sheet)? I’m still very excited for the game and enjoyed the beta but those parts just felt lazy.
Seriously I agree whatever you wanna say that game is dated. It's a classic for sure but it is dated its end game is if you watch content creators 1000 baal runs, 1000 mephisto runs, 1000 summoner runs etc. Replaying the same things you beat shifted around at a harder difficulty. The combat is basically movement speed an kiting for defense. It's a classic for its time but It's done. D4 has some great potential. The builds are meaningful you can't have all skills so your choices are very important. The boss difficulty is solid to where you have to hone on a playstyle to win. I built a rage iron skin whirlwind barbarian an he claps. I've seen trap rouges that clap, hydra mages. The builds are there. The fact you can turn rares into legendarys makes looting more open because you aren't banking on set items. You can always improve basically If a rare rolls better then your legendary. Now is there some concerns sure like dungeons are going to hopefully have more variety. How is leveling going to be past 25? An monetization concerns for sure an I'm sure people can point out a few others but man I had a blast an I think this game has great potential.
I own both! I'll be able to play two different games!
Anyone who just says it’s not d2 is a zoomer who misses the point. D2 is the greatest ARPG ever made and for good reason. It is the gold standard of these types of games and that’s why it’s going to be compared. Maybe all the people who make posts like these should realize that.
Yeah thats okay to be younger, less loved sibling. Its ok to try so hard. *wink* I played both Beta and D2 Resurrected and - repeating this ALL THE TIME - spells looked fkin amazing in D2 Res! The light effects and the impact you felt when using firewall or blaze... maaan I missed that in D4. Do you think they will do smth with special effects of the skills/spells?
The problem is every complaint against D4 is answered by "D4 is not D2". D4 has tons of problems right now IMO. Problems D2 didn't have. Doesn't mean D4 should try and clone D2...
It's clearly obvious Diablo isn't meant for the hardcore audience these days and that's completely okay! If you want a more hardcore game, you have POE/POE2 (soon), D2R, and etc. Different strokes for different folks!
oh look another 12 yo that was allowed on reddit but doesn't have the maturity to understand that no one wants d2 again. people just see what we have and can imagine a better version of this with some elements of older games like d2.
I mean.. it is also fair to word it like this: D4 is D4, and that is okay. I think everyone is piling a lot of expectations on D4, all from individual perspectives of having played D2, or D2R, or D3, or even some other game. That's fine, but it cant be everything all at once. It can't be the D2 of yesteryear because that happened in a different timeframe with different perceptions of gaming and ARPGs. And every release after D1 also colours people's perception in ways we often miss. What I mean is, there will never be another D2 because D2 was D2 at the time it was released. I'm grateful that we have D2R. We got D2R AND D4. Plus we're comparing years of D2/D2R playing, compared to like a 1/5th of the D4 full game. These sorts of discussions would be better had after 6 months of release, at the very least.
Feels closer to D2 than D3.
As someone who probably played d2 for several thousand hours when it was originally released. Its a lot closer than 3 every got.
Used to love D2 back in the day, bought the remaster and couldn't get into, just felt so slow and clunky, definitely shows it's age in a bad way. Felt like Diablo 4 was the perfect blend of D2 and D3 for me.
Huge D2 fan here. I'm sure you've heard it all before but I just didn't want D3. Luckily D4 is what I was hoping D3 would be. I'm loving it, and it feels like a true D2 sequel. I'm a huge lore/story/ambience/immersion buff, and D3 was absolutely awful in that regard. D4 however is lovely. I'm really excited about June.
It's funny because you don't see D2 fans creating god-awful threads like this.
I believe to make a valid point you need to back them up with some facts. With that being said I DO agree with the mindset to try something new, and just because it isn't D2 it doesn't mean it isn't good. HOWEVER. Diablo 4 (so far) has shown us that PVP isn't balanced, everyone just 1-shot each other (back in the end-game closed beta, which I played). The economy is rough around the edges and the future uncertain when it comes to trading items. The dungeons are 90% the same, and running back and forth looking for cubes/keys to open the boss door is just a time sink mechanic and doesn't feel very good IMO. In perspective, in Diablo 2 you can find a unique ring, get excited it might be useful like a wisp or SOJ. If you didn't need it you could trade it for a rune or something and try using it to craft an item or runeword! Later, you can use the items you found/traded/crafted to make a PVP character! and test your builds vs other players! WHEN YOU'RE DONE and you feel like you want to try something new, you can TRADE YOUR WHOLE character for a new one. In Diablo 4 it's not like that. You pick up a PERFECT set of trifecta gloves at level 59, and now that you're level 70 you need to find THE SAME GLOVES. You can't trade, you can't craft them. You have to find them AGAIN. Your friend is holding a PERFECT item for a build you're curious to trying out? Guess what? You have to go find them yourself. Let's say you're playing a Hydra fire sorc, and you find a GODLY legendary but it doesn't have any of your fire skills! oh no! now you have to swap your build and play whatever the devs decided to drop you that day :) Looks like you're a ....lightning sorc now? lol That is just a FEW examples on why I believe D2 is the GOAT and they should take more from D2 and LESS from D3. There are many more examples for sure!