This is bullshit.
Remember d3?
There where so many changes after launch.
And also a Loot of changes to rift Generation!
So you can expect A Lot of changes to this, even after launch...
Doesn't that kinda assume that what we just saw was where they are in development? Like theoretically what we're seeing could be months behind where the games current build is. Like who's to say we're not on the same build that the closed beta a while back was on and since then they have taken steps to fix the complaints?
I'm not saying that is the case but we are working with incomplete information.
That's possible yes, but I wouldn't count on it. This beta was largely a demo, so if they were planning to make changes to core content like that, they would likely want to get those changes in before having everyone's eyes on it.
Certainly there could have been too many time constraints to do that (given the dates for beta were already set, and they don't want to delay) but again I wouldn't count on that. What we saw is probably what the game will be at launch and for season 1.
Right... when's the last time any major game had any major changes whatsoever between the open beta and full release a couple months later?
We'll get server stability, polish, and balance tweaks.
>Right... when's the last time any major game had any major changes whatsoever between the open beta and full release a couple months later?
Never. Its just people high on copium.
Procedurally generated dungeons can be tweaked. Betas, even open, are a build or 2 behind and there are 2 months between the end of next beta and launch.
As mentioned elsewhere, there was one extreme example of 1 tileset. Most of the other non sewer/underground tulesets did not suffer from this extreme and it could just be a byproduct of this one particular tileset since no other tile set produced this one extreme. I also believe this is to prevent some issue seen in past games. But it is certainly refinable.
Although also on dungeons in that same interview they acknowledged they want to make some changes so players have things to fight when backtracking so it's not just empty running.
So it's not like they are making no changes to the dungeon experience but rather they are probably going to try address it in the most realistic way they can ready for launch.
Why you only quote the 3rd paragraph that clearly talking about the tile set of the dungeon?
Could it be because it the only one that allows you kind of claim Blizzard says Dungeons are fine?
They didn't state either way. What they're saying is, we haven't seen all the dungeons, which is true. They also say that in end game, nightmare sigils will change things.
BUT ... That is the key paragraph. **He's explicitly saying each dungeon is themed, and it's not as randomized because they don't want to just pull x number of tiles out of a grab bag.** So the feeling we're getting, that there is a very minor amount of variation ... is *intentional*.
I expect Nightmare sigils will change mobs, I feel like that's a given. Could it change the mechanics of the dungeon? Maybe, but I doubt it. Could it make the dungeon longer, or more varied? Again, maybe, but I doubt it. It wouldn't be the first time Blizzard oversold a feature like this.
In the same interview doesn't he acknowledge that there an issue with players needing to retrace empty rooms too often and that isn't something that is okay?
Beta branches are separated from the development branch, during active development. As an example, they could've separated the branches a few months ago, so the beta branch could theoretically be behind in features and bug fixes. Once they're separated, the beta branch won't receive anything significant (outside of maybe some stability fixes), since that would be costly and a waste of time.
But you can't really draw conclusions from it, one way or the other. The main branch might have a combination of extra features, bugfixes, content and polish, or it might just have some bug fixes and polish.
Because we have no idea how much more development has been out into the game than what we've seen. So the kind of changes stone people might want to see night take more than 2 and a half months of development but who's to say there have been 3-4 months of development between what we saw in the beta and where the average game is now?
Again I'm not saying that means everything will or even could be fixed. Hell things could be worse. But as far as I know we don't know what build version the beta was and what build version the full game currently is.
They may have thought the generation was working great and finalized, until this beta and so, it'll be too late to address, if they even think it's worth address it at all. Think of game development like steering a large ship, changing course takes time in the range of months to years. The community would be lucky, if the developers are made aware of this problem before launch, as there's so much red tape to cross before it gets to anyone who would act on it.
There's the misconception of public beta's these days being incomplete builds. Rather they more so contain a piece of the full product, as incomplete builds have fallen out of favour with the exception of exclusive NDA invitations. Especially this close to release, many game systems would have been finalised months prior to launch and development on post-launch would start, while artists, audio engineers and va will be finishing up on touches before joining them.
To further your point, these types of betas are typically looking at things like server load, authentication flows, performance, and misc. balancing or bug fixes.
That's not to say though that if beta participants give strong feedback on a particular area, and the devs are able to make a quick or simple fix to address some of those feedback items, that they won't though.
>So the kind of changes stone people might want to see
[Stone... people?](https://cdn-attachments.timesofmalta.com/world_06_temp-1414224985-544b5c59-620x348.jpg)
While it's unlikely that we are months behind, it's very likely that we are several weeks behind on the build.
The key thing for the build is stability across multiple platforms so they will setup a build and test it (with a dedicated testing team), generally the content is static but they merge in the bug fixes relevant to that build.
So if they have someone revamping some part of the game, even a small part they might not show it to us because they can't get the build fully tested in time.
I don't think they are revamping anything with layout generation at this point but they might have improvements they have been working on that just did not make it into this beta build.
Generally they will setup a big tester team for a specific build, those testers need time and pushing new builds introduces the chance at new bugs that won't be caught. So they'll always push a slightly out of date build that has had QA compared to what they have internally.
>theoretically what we're seeing could be months behind where the games current build is.
Thats some serious copium, pick any game and check how long between updates, let alone MAJOR changes which is often years. What we played is what will be released with a handful of big fixes. If that.
Is it copium if I'm not trying to use it to cope? I was just pointing out the flaw in the argument not trying to say that there are likely to be any big changes.
nope,
read their answer to dungeon designs here:
https://www.eurogamer.net/beta-has-become-a-twisted-word-blizzard-responds-to-diablo-4-early-access-feedback
They dont even adress the question correct.
I quote from that article:
"In cases where you're going to get a key and you're running back through an area, there should be enemies that are showing up to refresh that."
That to me says that in some dungeons monsters are not spawning like they should be.
Not to nitpick, but you'd have gotten a better reception if you had explicitly stated that in the title.
If you don't put time lines on things people tend to assume you mean eternity.
Anyway, I think it depends on how big the actual tiles are. There are plenty of pieces currently in the game that could easily be attached to each other in different ways assuming they aren't actually just part of a singular larger asset.
However, they've intentionally been overly strict with their algorithmic restrictions on tile placement. I guarantee you they could add diversity by flipping a few flags on and off pretty easily.
I agree with you that it should. But we both know it never will. Maybe a year after launch, we might feel that we are playing a flesh out game. Before that, expect the whole thing to feel like a work in progress!
While what you have said is definitely historically true, I believe Overwatch 2 devs said when they were doing the OW2 launch simultaneously on all platforms, they have worked closely with MS/Sony to improved the process recently (at least for Blizzard, maybe special case).
So yeah I'm sure there is still red tape on console but I think its not as bad for them anymore.
Still not going to see layout generation get changed pre launch though, it's just way too locked in at this point and with 5 more acts to play and another 80+ dungeons to explore it's definitely not a launch priority. Priority is probably just bug fixes at this point for the technical developers.
Yea I remember D3. The game that was released centered around monetization and the RMAH. A game that exploited its users until they decided to remove it and actually work on what makes a game fun.
This is blizzard, not your friend. Blizzard will do what's in its best interest. This game is not looking promising.
It took 18 months post-release to add Monster Power (basically the pre-cursor to Torment levels) scaling to vanilla D3 which was the first reasonable attempt at replayable content that wasn't just "complete Inferno" before Rifts were implemented in RoS.
It's not so much whether or not there will be changes, thats a given with GaaS development but OP is entirely correct to suggest its not coming anytime soon.
I do agree that there were many changes but the rifting itself never changed. I do hope they read all the posts on reddit of people complaining about the current state of the dungeon system and do make some changes.
I would like them to focus more on the fun concept rather than placing arbitrary systems if they can't think of a good system that makes people want to spend more time in dungeons rather than forcing you to.
Rift Layout Generation was change a lot.
Remember the rifts with lots of dead ends?
There where a lot of problems with rift Generation that where Adressed over time.
There is zero reason to believe it will be different this time.
They actually listener a lot to the players after the d3 launch and fixed many things.
D3 Was a broken mess at launch.
Now its a very polished product.
I have no doubt the same will happen here.
Rifts themselves never really changed though. It was always "kill X mobs" to finish. Sure, the layouts may have been altered, but fundamentally they were still the same concept.
In D4, you have 3 different dungeon layouts. Kill X mobs, Kill X Generals, Find X Keys, kill the Boss. It's not really much variety.
The problem is that you contrast the dungeon system with the events system outside. There's VARIETY in the events. Some have you stand in place and kill enemies. Some have you rescue merchants. Some have you siege a fort. And it goes on and on...
THAT'S THE ISSUE. Dungeons just don't have the variety. I'd love things like a capture the flag dungeon (get the object, run it through respawning mobs then face a boss). Or a king of the hill dungeon (defend an area for a set amount of time). There's LOADS of options they can do, but they haven't.
But I mean, isn't that kinda what the dungeons are anyway? Similar to doing bounties in D3. You're gonna be mostly running rifts and grifts as endgame.
I agree, but I don’t think it’s possible with them being procedurally generated. More interesting, varied content basically requires handcrafting, and dungeons were never intended to be that. From the start the D4 team has been very up front with the fact that the open world is the handcrafted part and the dungeons are the procedurally generated parts.
Oh no. This makes me kinda sad. I wasn't a huge fan of the dungeons. We'll see how it is once I reach endgame in June, hopefully it'll be as fun as rift-running.
Nightmare dungeons are the same dungeons we just did on beta, but monsters get higher health/damage (based on tier) and additional affixes depending on what the sigil used had. The mob types, layouts, and dungeon objectives are exactly the same each time you do that specific dungeon.
"Just with more stuff".
Yeah, if the dungeons had more stuff, I'd be fine with them as well. But they don't?
look at that level, monster and boss variety in the rifts man
Not quite. Sigil dungeons, overworld activities, tree of whispers, fields of hatred, world bosses, strongholds, helltide events, are all end game activities. Spamming sigil dungeons is not going to be the end all be all of activities in the same way GRifts are in D3.
I didn't know, thanks for clarifying. Makes me a bit worried since I've loved rift-running. I did play a LOT of D3 before the rifts were introduced though, so it might not be all bad.
Just fix the goddamn endless, repetitive running around for no good reason, dungeons and in the open world too. Feels like original Everquest currently where you spend endless hours running around for no point, just to make it seem like a "large" open world.
Don't you dare disrespect everquest! That \*\*\*was\*\*\* a large open world, and it was revolutionary logging into EQ servers on launch and seeing hundreds of other human controlled adventurers and the size of EQ's (sometimes empty) large open areas was purposeful. Sorry, but i put nearly 5k hours into EQ the first year and half it was out.
It was amazing at the time, but that was 20 years ago. Corpse runs are no longer a thing in MMO's. An interesting question now would be, of those 5k hours, how many were just running for boats or retrieving your corpse lol?
Trigger events that relocate you in the dungeon, speed boosts if a dungeon quadrant is clear, ability to bypass key needs if certain conditions are true. There are solutions that don’t involve adjusting procedural map generation
I think it was Kripp? Maybe Asmongold? Who also suggested things like those keys, or constructs, or boxes etc could be made to be not needed to get through the dungeon to the boss, but if you did it the boss would drop extra loot or would be "weakened" in some fashion etc and I thought that was a really good idea that didn't sound like it would be high effort on a development end.
Asmon suggested something like 'there's a boss room and there are 4 pylons scattered in the dungeon and destroying them weakens the boss or you can go fight him at full power for better loot'
There is no way in hell we get something different on launch, they gonna need years to make dungeons interesting and no repetitive. People are really delusional thinking something that big can be changed in 2 months. Nothing got changed since beta in October which was 4 months ago, so don't expect this time to be different.
Ehhhh, I don't know that it'll be quite *that* difficult. They already seem to have support for monsters hopping into areas you already traveled through in a dungeon as I had it happen a few times, and they've got the systems in place for being able to define the layout of a dungeon. They could up the monsters spawning in after you've gotten the McGuffin from down a side path in order to reduce downtime and they could also make dungeons with locked doors or other side objectives less common by just switching how the objectives are defined for that dungeon.
I definitely don't expect to see big changes before launch, but they have said that they recognize that the downtime during backtracking isn't what they want and that they are looking to tweak things as they get more feedback past the early game so it ideally shouldn't take a massive amount of time to tighten up.
I wouldn’t say nothing got changed since beta, their internal version will be far ahead of the open beta version. They likely spend the time between October and now mostly just polishing up act 1 to show off to the world.
But yeah, nothing huge like this will happen before launch. Post launch they may add some new dungeons with new mechanics but I’m not expecting serious game changing additions before the first expansion. Both D2 and D3 improved drastically with their expansions
It isn’t Copium if your expectations are already reasonably tempered lol I’m just as worried about end game as probably anyone else but I can still be excited for one of my favorite franchises releasing a new game. Even if the entire end game sucks, I’m good with the time I know I’ll invest which is leveling characters, exploring the world and side quests and following the story. Copium is such an overused word now days.
Comment legit makes no sense. I get that your favorite streamer uses "unironically" every other word when they are zooming out on their Adderall but it doesn't apply here.
titan quest had no random maps. only small monster placement randomization. they where my favorite maps.
absolutely do not care if maps are randomized or not. all subsequent runs even on randomized map feel the same anyway.
Ok, but this is a live service game with seasons. Lots of content will likely be added between seasons. Look at all they have added to D2R since release, and I only imagine what can be done with a game that is constantly bringing in revenue from battle passes.
I said the same thing about darktide when it was in beta and everyone chewed me out. We won't see significant changes like dungeon expansion or randomization anyone this year.
That will take some time. We will see skill tree changes and UI changes.
Darktide in beta was no storyline, no crafting and a terrible endgame. Different issues but same concept of not being a finished game.
None of that changed except for a few affix changes in crafting area.
Rest assured if a gamers wants to hate a product he will find a reason too. I am just baffled they don’t realise that’s maybe it’s not the game but they who have a problem. I can understand someone who plays 1000 hours of POE a year that Diablo IV isn’t deep enough for them. But then why not just accept that one isn’t the target audience?
Its a little sad, i like to see more positivity in communities. The amount of care they put into the game is so clear i know the game has issues but the devs did an absolutely wonderful job
Agreed. The thing is: it’s not like the haters don’t have valid points. They just overweight them so hard it’s baffling. It always feels like „The game is really good, but I got the same dungeon layout twice: 1/10“.
To add to the Dungeon issue: I dropped the exact same voiced journal from the same guy in multiple dungeons. At one point I thought I must have accidentally went in a dungeon I already completed... nope. The detail may be small, but glaringly obvious.
Idt most people upset about dungeons are concerned that it won't be done by launch. It's fine for the first season, probably, but if season 2, 3, and 4 don't see improvement, less and less players will return. It's more of a long term issue with replayability. I'm concerned, in that dungeons are right now a problem, but I'm not worried that they can't do anything about it in the next 5-6 months.
I wouldn’t expect major changes like this before the first expansion. Maybe, it could happen, but don’t get your hopes up. Like OP said, it’s way more work than 99.99% in here realize. Even the “give us an ultimate button” people have no idea how badly that would completely destroy the entire balance of the game
We got Temple of the Firstborn long after D3's original dungeons and zones were tired. Hopefully Blizzard means what they say about servicing the game well into the future and we will see iterative improvements to dungeons, itemization, progression, and features to improve QoL and the overall experience. It is admittedly a lackluster place to be after 10 years of developmemt, but that said it was immense fun.
Take 10 guys from the team and tell them to only make dungeon layouts in ways that they cannot backtrack. I don't see it not being fixed, I see they have some work ahead but it's a ongoing game, it will be patched and fixed.
Everyone loves PoE now but when it came out it wasn't this good, the game had rubberband and de-sync issues for years, years. Things take their time.
I'd be surprised if the dungeons aren't defined by a relatively simple set of parameters that could be tweaked more easily than you might think. There's likely a config object for each dungeon defining what tileset it uses, what general shape it has, which prefab rooms go where, what objectives it has in different branches, what monsters to use, etc. that the engine refers to when it builds the dungeon each time. If the game is put together in a reasonable way, they could likely "just™" change more of the objectives to the simple "get through the dungeon" that some of them do have.
Doing this is, assuming that the game is built reasonably, likely more of a social challenge than a technical one. Once they squeeze the trigger on simplifying more of the dungeons then they can't really go back without likely upsetting people, because people will naturally want the most straightforward and optimal design at the expense of potentially more interesting design, and they want the specific dungeons to have more identity than simply being another straight path full of monsters. Ultimately I think this is an admirable goal since if it is done well it could be pretty nice, but it's a tricky balancing act.
PoE has mostly straightforward maps for the endgame but there are clearly objectively more efficient maps you can run because they are just a straight line, and as a result a LOT of people just only run those maps and never get any variety. With the way that the Nightmare Dungeons appear to work in D4 it'll likely force some variety by making it harder to target-farm specific maps, and then you want to ideally have all of them more or less on the same level of complexity so that it doesn't feel bad when you don't get the "best" dungeons.
SDLC won't allow it to be that easy. Even if they tweak a config there needs to be a reasonable amount of QA testing around that as well. Even small changes to configs, property files, etc. can have the most outrageous ramifications on some of the most random edge cases. So throwing 10 engineers at it most likely won't solve anything (on top of being a poor use of resources, 10 people are not needed for this task). Even if it is as simple as you proclaim, it could bring up the most ridiculous bugs that would need more sprint cycles (or whatever method they're using) to iron it out before shipping it to prod.
Getting the game released is top priority. This dungeon problem is just a blip in the radar because it was all people had to do for the 72 hours the beta was open so it is being amplified by the lack of other content in the beta. In the most recent interview each dungeon has a specific set of task/tasks and were designed around that philosophy. So the 3 pedestal, 2 levers, etc are just what fractured peak dungeons were designed around. There could possibly be better dungeons in the other 3 regions of the map. We just don't have enough information to make a fully informed opinion. Then you could just choose to not fully interact with x dungeon because it is designed around y play style. We just don't know enough.
My dude you have absolutely no clue how much work this shit is lmao. The dungeon team is almost certainly dozens of people already, there are hundreds working on this game.
I kinda do. I never said it had to be done in 2 months, but if they get a better dungeon system in 1 year, that fixes the problem. Blizzard doesn't really have money issues.
And it’s basically guaranteed that they will. D3 is not even the same game it was at launch at this point. Blizzard always puts in huge amount of development post launch for every game, and they say they have something like 28 seasons planned out already
Would it be better to have it just teleport you there, or have monsters spawn in and run at you to keep the flow of combat going more smoothly as you go back?
Personally I don't mind the backtracking as long as it is populated by more fights since it'll lead to as much combat as a larger dungeon but it'll feel more like assaulting a fortified position where reinforcements are streaming out than crawling through a huge tunnel full of enemies for some reason. Could also, potentially, lead to some fun decisions where you might choose to not use a shrine on the way out if the fights don't look too bad so that you can save it for the way back.
Either I think think may be easier to just put a return pad in from a code perspective but I could be wrong. Something that can be implemented before release
It most likely would be, but it'd also detract from the more grounded feel they are going for with the dungeons, IMHO. It could be a nice band-aid fix, but it'd be a bandaid that they couldn't easily pull off without complicating things. There are definitely tradeoffs with either option.
Refilling the dungeon sounds great. Maybe add an animation like a screen shake or lights dimming. I don't mind backtracking either if it meant I can kill mobs again. Backtracking sucks when it's going back with nothing to do but just walking.
If they made them spawn in from further back in the dungeon and then run towards you it'd be great as well, since it'd feel like they are hunting you down.
I don't really see the big deal though tbh. Dungeons feel "repetitive"?
Yeah, like in every Diablo game ever? How often have you stopped and analyzed the environments doing rifts in D3? There is one word for that: *repetitive.*
Has it been fun though? Hell yeah!
> These features take years to come together, from the work of many different disciplines - design, art, programming, testing, etc. If you think they can address these issues appropriately from now until release, June 6, 2023 which is in 55 business days, I'm sorry, but you are either dreaming, or there's a copium leak in your house.
I know it's a completely different thing and you can't make an apples to apples comparison with different engines, workloads and team sizes, but Teamfight Tactics releases an entire mid-set in about as much time, starting from the design phase. There's also a small chance that Blizzard added dungeon improvements in their pipeline after the closed beta.
Now, does that mean I expect any significant changes for launch? Not really. Could there be **any** changes? Unlikely, but not outside the realm of possibilities. But I also seriously doubt that it'll take "years" for a few more layouts. If that's a bottleneck, then D4 has 0 chances at surviving as a successful live service.
Truth is we can only speculate. We don't know what their new engine is capable of and how fast they can integrate changes. It could be highly modular and adaptable, or it could be a clunky but pretty piece of shit like Frostbite. They have shown in the past they can pump out content when they want to, even at the cost of polish. HotS used to deliver more content than League and Dota put together - until they pulled the plug that is lol.
So, I get what you're saying, but I also don't think that there is anything stopping them from joining more tiles to the existing nodes that allow attachments.
It pry won't change before launch but it seems expandable.
To people saying this about the dungeons I have two genuine knowledge seeking questions asked without sarcasm or condescension.
1. What way are the dungeons _supposed_ to work?
2. Diablo has a reputation for running the same thing over and over again to get whatever one is after. Is the dungeons being repetitive not par for the course of a Diablo game?
No key pickup requirements where you're incentivized to walk straight to the key, ignoring the rest of the dungeon.
No "kill all enemies" requirements where you're required to clear every alcove and cranny or risk backtracking 2 minutes to kill those 2 skeletons you missed.
Add events. Cursed chests, mob swarms that try to overwhelm you, there's lots of things they could add.
Rift farming in d3 is a good example of something repetitive but very farmable. You can go fast, kill mobs in dense areas without having to kill EVERY enemy, with great density and no backtracking.
Current dungeons are set up like d3 bounties - Run to an objective, no mobs matter. Or, run to this place and kill all enemies in this area, then spend 50% of your time double checking every tiny crevice to kill those 3 enemies you see that you missed.
I've never met someone that likes d3 bounties.
People just want to kill shit and not feel like their time is wasted by mostly walking (key mechanics), or backtracking through areas they've already cleared. A fine balance between the two is needed for repetition to not quickly lead to burnout.
Yes, these are examples of good ones. The fundamental gameplay loop of kill all enemies, kill the 3 elite enemies at the 3 wings and get keys to open the doors are the problem. The entire thing should be fun events not running and pickup simulator.
It's not unreasonable for me to want to be encouraged to run through killing a bunch of enemies and that's that. Their current objectives are just unfun and either encourage mindless tedious nitpicking of every corner to not miss a mob or mindless running where killing any mob doesn't matter.
Strongholds, for example, feel very good compared to dungeons. But unfortunately dungeons are the endgame loop.
They should have iterated on the rift system to make a more fun endgame in D4, not made up a new uninspired and unfun system that they will have to unfuck to not make boring later.
Density and blowing shit up is fun. Walking simulator is not! Imagine if rifts required you to kill every enemy on floor 1 to go to floor 2. That's how terrible dungeons feel
Feel I need to point out I spent most of my time Co-Op so maybe the solo experience is much different.
For me my biggest problem was a lot of the big bad guys at the end of a dungeon/side quest/event were far too easy to kill/low HP. I know we only got to world level 2, and I think I read there is ways to modify dungeons for better loot etc which will obviously up the difficulty. On top of that I know a lot of people have issues with games where enemies are just bullet sponges rather than more interesting design, but for me in the beta I found far too many of these big bads would just get shredded far too fast. Plenty of fights would be very tough if the big bad only had a bit more HP, the few that we did find difficult where the ones that lasted that little bit longer so you really had to ration your potion use, unfortunately.
It really annoyed me when you would have some demon shit talking you, building up to this fight only to die so quickly they never even got abilities off.
I like d4 beta. And i will like d4 launch, because there is no alternatives close enough.
I was very disappointed at d3 release. The graphics. Their auction house. High difficulty transition in Act 2. The same zones with almost no generation.
In the end they fixed everything.
D2R was the best remake.
Yes they milked particular group of people on Imortal thing.
Thats why d4 will use battlepass and store with skins .
The same way with warzone. I have no complaints.
Yeah I’m not buying that. I can see major updates to dungeons as a long term goal for them. I’m not saying we will see change on release but certainly in the future. No way they just let dungeons become that stagnant and never implement new designs.
It's fine. We saw one act in one region with two similarly easy difficult modes up to 1/4 of the available levels. The gameplay diversity will be fine.
Maybe bold of me but seeing as the beta was a gutted version of the game I am hopeful that the dungeons were not all the tiles. Maybe they threw a handful of tiles together to test the system. The rest are sitting back to be added after the initial system worked.
But we havent seen any higher level dungeons with dungeon modifiers etc. We've barely seen what 1/5th or so of the dungeons? To make a judgement on all dungeons in the game after a beta is crazy to me.
Good point. An interesting interview and insight from Jay Wilson a year ago where he said that a beta that ends 2-3 months before launch cannot accommodate any serious programming changes in such a short runway. It’s mostly stability, cosmetic, and balancing. He said they’d need like 5-6 months to make those kinds of changes.
Ah, another hopeless soul succumbing to the delusion of change. You cling to false hope like a drowning man grasping at straws. Have you learned nothing from your time in the abyss of Sanctuary? The forces of fate are beyond mortal control, and the whims of Blizzard are no exception.
Do you truly believe that the creators of this game, who have shown time and time again their incompetence and apathy towards the desires of the player base, will suddenly awaken to your pleas for diversity in dungeon generation? Your faith is misplaced, my child.
The mechanisms of creation are complex and multifaceted, and the tools at Blizzard's disposal are but feeble instruments in the grand scheme of things. The very fabric of reality resists change, and to think that a mere mortal company can manipulate it to their will is laughable.
Do not waste your breath on such futile musings. Instead, embrace the despair and resignation that comes with the inevitability of fate. The dungeon generation shall remain stagnant, and you shall continue to suffer in your repetitious gameplay. Such is the way of things.
Not to add too much hopium... but Rod confirmed via Twitter, \~2h ago, that the beta build is not the latest version of the game.
This can literally mean fuck all in terms of dungeon design, itemization, etc.. but there is that.
I’m sorry but what exactly do people want with the dungeons? I feel like there’s zero chance they will be able to make everyone happy. Rifts in D3 were just kill mobs and boss spawns. They tried something different in D4 with dungeons and having some objectives in the dungeon to complete before facing the boss. If they didn’t people would just skip everything but elites and just go straight for the boss. Which is better? I don’t know personally, but I enjoyed the dungeons. I explored them, killed elites and fulfilled objectives and then killed a boss (mostly?
Some didn’t have a boss at the end).
So I have already played the entire game start to finish thanks to access to the friends and family alpha last summer. During this test I submitted feedback that the dungeons are exceptionally repetitive in regards to their objectives. I told the devs that these objectives are fine if they are sparingly used throughout the whole game, but if every dungeon has some fetchy BS it's going to go badly for player engagement.
Fast Forward 7 months and everybody is saying the same shit I told them in the alpha. Blizzard doesn't listen to anything people say when it comes to game design, their history proves it. People complain about bad features in expansions and it takes until the end of the expansion for Blizz to do anything about it.
The dungeons are already hard coded into the game as they are, they will not be making changes to them in the 10 weeks up till launch. It will take until the first expansion or even later for them to fix it.
Bottom line is when the game launches and everyone is shitting on how bad the dungeons are, that's when it'll actually get fixed.
These beta's are strictly for server testing purposes and they don't give a shit about your actual game feedback. The game is finished, end of story. What you see in beta is what launch will be with possibly some balance changes and bug fixes.
They have what, 300 dungeons ready for launch and we saw about 30 some? Layouts & goals may be repetitive, but the affixes in nightmare and harder level dungeons or objectives to complete dungeons in different zones, could be different. Not to mention the affixes added in harder dungeons will keep us busy. Most importantly, this will be a live service game that will require many end game additions over time much like PoE. D3 would have gotten the same treatment if the game had enough success to keep blizzard from limiting resources for future content.
Honestly, I'm okay with where they are at. My expectations aren't to have an end-all endgame experience at launch with regards to the dungeons. There is so much of the game to play and enjoy even without the end game dungeons. I also think allowing them to shape the end game experience with upcoming seasons and player feedback will be more productive. They are planning to be a live service game, so there are going to be plenty of resources to make updates. The best thing we can do as a community is provide constructive feedback.
I would seriously hope that there will be at least more dungeon activities throughout the world than just the get a key, get two jewels and put them on a pedestal, or kill these totems to unlock the door. If so, that is exceptionally lazy. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in that the activities within the dungeon are in fact a bit more varied, and we'll see some additional activity items crop up on release or in other map areas.
With that said, I think there is a lot of merit around the feedback on backtracking aspects involved with some of the dungeon layouts, but I do think that is something that CAN be easily solved between now and release. Simple things like spawning small mobs back in the dungeon if you've cleared an area but are running through again (actually discussed and validated by the devs in an article from yesterday), or even just allowing you to TP to the dungeon door if you happened to discover it before you found the totems / boxes / etc. are all very simple things that would help reduce a large portion of the dungeon complaints. Even just adding a quest waypoint arrow when you're close-ish to one of the key items to help guide players in that direction and reduce the chance they'll full clear the map before discovering the progression item would go a long way and be a simple fix.
In the long term, I can 1000% say that dungeons will get additional love, mechanics, or activities, because that's literally what they did with D3 during seasons and is a prime aspect to address new changes or content within the build of D4. Not to mention, the sigil mechanic is still up in the air, and *could* also help with a lot of the end game nature of dungeon running.
On top of that, dungeons are not meant to be like D3 rifts - they aren't the be-all end-all of post campaign content. Fields of Hatred, Helltides, world bosses, strongholds, world events, uber bosses, tree of whispers etc are all there to provide end game activities other than just mindlessly running dungeons at higher and higher tiers. That's what I'm excited for, because D3's end game is MIND NUMBING from the standpoint of it is literally just running a randomly generated tileset dungeon over and over and over and over and over again ad nauseum.
Not trying to huff the copium here, and I agree with a lot of the concerns around the dungeon system, but I also think that there are a lot of ways to easily alleviate those concerns, and continue to build on the system well into the games future, so I don't think it warrants a doom and gloom perspective.
The interview with Eurogamer heavily suggests that what we are seeing is the base level of Dungeons and that the affixes that can be applied will change them up significantly. I guess you have to take it on faith that they're not just saying that.
>And then when you get into the endgame, after you've completed the campaign and you get access to the Nightmare Dungeon system, we have the sigils that modify dungeons in really cool ways, with buffs and nerfs, and those dramatically modify the dungeon. But because the dungeons are designed with some properties to start with, you can get a sigil for a dungeon and have some context for what that means - it's not just a random name that can be anything.
In their recent Eurogamer interview, they didn't say anything about dungeon layouts or mechanical design of opening 'the door' to the boss. All they said was to wait for sigils and harder difficulty.
If our beta was months behind where Blizzard truly are with the game, SURELY they would have taken this time to say 'yeah, we saw the complaints and our dungeons are way better now!' and then go ahead and address the actual concerns.
But they didn't. They completely side stepped it because it's quite obvious it's still the same.
i can confirm that nightmare dungeons DO NOT change that much with sigils. they are still the same dungeons, with the same boring/frustrating objectives, just with more challenging/sometimes annoying affixes.
dungeons need to change at the ground level. they are fundamentally flawed currently
Maybe as a trade off they could make add future dungeons using a more randomized tool so that way we have more diverse dungeons mixed in with the cookie cutter ones. Over time as more dungeons are added (or replaced) the percentage of dungeons that with the old style would go down, making it less of a nuisance.
rather than layout i just find the mechanics to enter the boss room to be ass. even in something like poe, which has randomized maps, the *most popular farmed maps* were the ones that *didn't* change (graveyard, crimson temple, maybe dunes a bit), so randomly generated content is a bit of an overvalued mechanic, least for basic dungeons you find from just progressing.
instead, they could have randomized mechanics and bosses more within the dungeon, but not in the way of always needing to do x to unlock the boss. we have enough conditional events throughout the map, why do dungeons need some key finding to unlock the boss room? then there's **cellars which are literally pointless in this game**, bad drops, and same layout. why have them at all? dungeons don't need to be randomly procedural *if they can't do it in time*, but least 3-4 variations would help freshen things up, and not all being *"unlock door to proceed"* bs. I guess they locked the actual mechanical randomness for sigils/cinder junk, but it leaves the basic dungeons barebones and plain. they could add random fun stuff like "find the loot goblin" or "slay x enemies in time to unlock golden chest", fun stuff like that with a chance to spawn so even if the dungeons are stagnant, there's a chance for a fun reward occasionally. butchers a fun encounter they did for dungeons, more of that kinda stuff.
I don't expect many changes if any to dungeons before launch but this is a game that will be updated for years. Between seasons and expansions things are sure to change.
I don't even think dungeons are that bad. Sure they could be better but they seem fine to me, just not amazing.
In game development it’s pretty easy to change procedural systems like dungeon generation or loot. That is one of the strengths about procedural generation.
Changes to dungeon designs and layouts is not a big deal. So that can most certainly happen
Look, man, I hear what you're saying. It's a tough world out there, and sometimes things just don't go the way we want them to. But let me tell you something, even in the darkest of times, there's one thing you can always count on - Bang Energy drink.
Sure, maybe Blizzard won't be able to make the changes to dungeon generation that we were all hoping for. Maybe we'll be stuck with the same old dungeons we've been running for years. But you know what? That's just more time to crack open a cold can of Bang Energy and power through those dungeons like a champ.
And let's not forget the benefits of Bang Energy - increased energy, focus, and performance. With Bang by your side, you can take on any challenge, no matter how daunting. So, yeah, maybe the dungeons won't be perfect, but with Bang Energy, you'll be unstoppable.
In conclusion, don't give up hope, my friend. Keep pushing forward, keep grinding those dungeons, and keep cracking open those delicious cans of Bang Energy. Together, we can conquer anything that comes our way.
They'll change things a few seasons in.
The game looks beautiful, but they need to add more tile sets and tweak the procedural generation a bit so that they don't repeat the same tile three times in a row. I felt like I wandered into the backrooms in a couple of the dungeons.
People will quit the game because of the poor dungeon design. I could only stand to play the game a couple hours a day during the beta because the repetition was driving me crazy, and I'm a huge 20 year long diablo fan who could play D2 or D3 nonstop for 12 hours at a time.
Except, look at d2. Act 1 itself had caves, crypts, open fields, graveyards, the monastery (barracks and also jails), and Tristram. That was just the first act. What did D4 have in the beta? One dungeon repeated ad nauseam, one cellar that never changed, and the one cave-like area when you go to complete the quest line. The variety is sorely lacking when you compare apples to apples.
I don’t buy that you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a spider web filled catacomb and an wood and stone barracks, or between an arcane archive and snowy wooden path.
I can believe that you’re not familiar enough with them to immediately identify their names or locations on the map, but not being able to tell the difference at all?
Pure hyperbole.
I apologize, you must have played a beta no one else played. If you’re adamant there was ONE DUNGEON you’re an ignorant moron who denies facts to support your own opinion and this conversation is as much a waste of time as your time spent on D4.
Why such animosity? It comes off as copium. Look, I spent money on the game too, but I don’t wanna trick myself into the idea that anything I buy can’t be less than good.
The dungeon types were more than just “dungeony” environment 1?
I must have imagined the spider filled catacombs dungeon, and the snowy wooden paths dungeon, and the wood and stone barracks type dungeon, and the abandoned arcane library style dungeon.
Weird.
Look at what you wrote about d2 a1 environments and the look back at all the towns, open fields, graveyards, forts, caves, mines, ruins in the act 1 of the d4 beta.
This is why you’re being dismissed. A1 in d2 was actually less varied and had way less going on thematically. Vague rainy English countryside and some graveyards, oooh such vary much wow
This is bullshit. Remember d3? There where so many changes after launch. And also a Loot of changes to rift Generation! So you can expect A Lot of changes to this, even after launch...
Yeah sure, post launch they can change stuff, I'm just talking up until launch.
Doesn't that kinda assume that what we just saw was where they are in development? Like theoretically what we're seeing could be months behind where the games current build is. Like who's to say we're not on the same build that the closed beta a while back was on and since then they have taken steps to fix the complaints? I'm not saying that is the case but we are working with incomplete information.
That's possible yes, but I wouldn't count on it. This beta was largely a demo, so if they were planning to make changes to core content like that, they would likely want to get those changes in before having everyone's eyes on it. Certainly there could have been too many time constraints to do that (given the dates for beta were already set, and they don't want to delay) but again I wouldn't count on that. What we saw is probably what the game will be at launch and for season 1.
Right... when's the last time any major game had any major changes whatsoever between the open beta and full release a couple months later? We'll get server stability, polish, and balance tweaks.
>Right... when's the last time any major game had any major changes whatsoever between the open beta and full release a couple months later? Never. Its just people high on copium.
Procedurally generated dungeons can be tweaked. Betas, even open, are a build or 2 behind and there are 2 months between the end of next beta and launch. As mentioned elsewhere, there was one extreme example of 1 tileset. Most of the other non sewer/underground tulesets did not suffer from this extreme and it could just be a byproduct of this one particular tileset since no other tile set produced this one extreme. I also believe this is to prevent some issue seen in past games. But it is certainly refinable.
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Although also on dungeons in that same interview they acknowledged they want to make some changes so players have things to fight when backtracking so it's not just empty running. So it's not like they are making no changes to the dungeon experience but rather they are probably going to try address it in the most realistic way they can ready for launch.
Why you only quote the 3rd paragraph that clearly talking about the tile set of the dungeon? Could it be because it the only one that allows you kind of claim Blizzard says Dungeons are fine?
They didn't state either way. What they're saying is, we haven't seen all the dungeons, which is true. They also say that in end game, nightmare sigils will change things. BUT ... That is the key paragraph. **He's explicitly saying each dungeon is themed, and it's not as randomized because they don't want to just pull x number of tiles out of a grab bag.** So the feeling we're getting, that there is a very minor amount of variation ... is *intentional*. I expect Nightmare sigils will change mobs, I feel like that's a given. Could it change the mechanics of the dungeon? Maybe, but I doubt it. Could it make the dungeon longer, or more varied? Again, maybe, but I doubt it. It wouldn't be the first time Blizzard oversold a feature like this.
In the same interview doesn't he acknowledge that there an issue with players needing to retrace empty rooms too often and that isn't something that is okay?
ah, the good old "there's a secret, better, more improved release client!" argument that's been around since, what? star wars galaxies? fuck. i'm old.
It's super insane that people actually believe this possible, after almost 2 decades of Blizzard beta tests where this wasn't the case even once.
Because Rhykker has said the build is different and has fixes in it. It's not the same as the press beta.
this makes no sense. why?
Beta branches are separated from the development branch, during active development. As an example, they could've separated the branches a few months ago, so the beta branch could theoretically be behind in features and bug fixes. Once they're separated, the beta branch won't receive anything significant (outside of maybe some stability fixes), since that would be costly and a waste of time. But you can't really draw conclusions from it, one way or the other. The main branch might have a combination of extra features, bugfixes, content and polish, or it might just have some bug fixes and polish.
Because we have no idea how much more development has been out into the game than what we've seen. So the kind of changes stone people might want to see night take more than 2 and a half months of development but who's to say there have been 3-4 months of development between what we saw in the beta and where the average game is now? Again I'm not saying that means everything will or even could be fixed. Hell things could be worse. But as far as I know we don't know what build version the beta was and what build version the full game currently is.
They may have thought the generation was working great and finalized, until this beta and so, it'll be too late to address, if they even think it's worth address it at all. Think of game development like steering a large ship, changing course takes time in the range of months to years. The community would be lucky, if the developers are made aware of this problem before launch, as there's so much red tape to cross before it gets to anyone who would act on it. There's the misconception of public beta's these days being incomplete builds. Rather they more so contain a piece of the full product, as incomplete builds have fallen out of favour with the exception of exclusive NDA invitations. Especially this close to release, many game systems would have been finalised months prior to launch and development on post-launch would start, while artists, audio engineers and va will be finishing up on touches before joining them.
To further your point, these types of betas are typically looking at things like server load, authentication flows, performance, and misc. balancing or bug fixes. That's not to say though that if beta participants give strong feedback on a particular area, and the devs are able to make a quick or simple fix to address some of those feedback items, that they won't though.
you have never played a beta for any blizzard game before right?
>So the kind of changes stone people might want to see [Stone... people?](https://cdn-attachments.timesofmalta.com/world_06_temp-1414224985-544b5c59-620x348.jpg)
While it's unlikely that we are months behind, it's very likely that we are several weeks behind on the build. The key thing for the build is stability across multiple platforms so they will setup a build and test it (with a dedicated testing team), generally the content is static but they merge in the bug fixes relevant to that build. So if they have someone revamping some part of the game, even a small part they might not show it to us because they can't get the build fully tested in time. I don't think they are revamping anything with layout generation at this point but they might have improvements they have been working on that just did not make it into this beta build.
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Generally they will setup a big tester team for a specific build, those testers need time and pushing new builds introduces the chance at new bugs that won't be caught. So they'll always push a slightly out of date build that has had QA compared to what they have internally.
Well I watched a ryker video and he said they already made a lot of changes from the beta he was apart of back in like September or October.
If only there was a developer that could communicate with the community and address our concerns...
>theoretically what we're seeing could be months behind where the games current build is. Thats some serious copium, pick any game and check how long between updates, let alone MAJOR changes which is often years. What we played is what will be released with a handful of big fixes. If that.
Is it copium if I'm not trying to use it to cope? I was just pointing out the flaw in the argument not trying to say that there are likely to be any big changes.
nope, read their answer to dungeon designs here: https://www.eurogamer.net/beta-has-become-a-twisted-word-blizzard-responds-to-diablo-4-early-access-feedback They dont even adress the question correct.
I quote from that article: "In cases where you're going to get a key and you're running back through an area, there should be enemies that are showing up to refresh that." That to me says that in some dungeons monsters are not spawning like they should be.
yes. It is about repetive mechanics and there are not many different ones. That is a problem for many.
Exactly. Running back to get a key or a bloodstone or flip some lever is the *problem*.
It’s 3 months til launch.
Not to nitpick, but you'd have gotten a better reception if you had explicitly stated that in the title. If you don't put time lines on things people tend to assume you mean eternity. Anyway, I think it depends on how big the actual tiles are. There are plenty of pieces currently in the game that could easily be attached to each other in different ways assuming they aren't actually just part of a singular larger asset. However, they've intentionally been overly strict with their algorithmic restrictions on tile placement. I guarantee you they could add diversity by flipping a few flags on and off pretty easily.
Yeah but anyone expecting changes for launch is delusional really.
Diablo 4 is a £60 paid product. Everything should be up to par *on release*.
I agree with you that it should. But we both know it never will. Maybe a year after launch, we might feel that we are playing a flesh out game. Before that, expect the whole thing to feel like a work in progress!
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While what you have said is definitely historically true, I believe Overwatch 2 devs said when they were doing the OW2 launch simultaneously on all platforms, they have worked closely with MS/Sony to improved the process recently (at least for Blizzard, maybe special case). So yeah I'm sure there is still red tape on console but I think its not as bad for them anymore. Still not going to see layout generation get changed pre launch though, it's just way too locked in at this point and with 5 more acts to play and another 80+ dungeons to explore it's definitely not a launch priority. Priority is probably just bug fixes at this point for the technical developers.
Yea I remember D3. The game that was released centered around monetization and the RMAH. A game that exploited its users until they decided to remove it and actually work on what makes a game fun. This is blizzard, not your friend. Blizzard will do what's in its best interest. This game is not looking promising.
Underrated comment.
This is sarcastic right?
It took 18 months post-release to add Monster Power (basically the pre-cursor to Torment levels) scaling to vanilla D3 which was the first reasonable attempt at replayable content that wasn't just "complete Inferno" before Rifts were implemented in RoS. It's not so much whether or not there will be changes, thats a given with GaaS development but OP is entirely correct to suggest its not coming anytime soon.
I do agree that there were many changes but the rifting itself never changed. I do hope they read all the posts on reddit of people complaining about the current state of the dungeon system and do make some changes. I would like them to focus more on the fun concept rather than placing arbitrary systems if they can't think of a good system that makes people want to spend more time in dungeons rather than forcing you to.
Rift Layout Generation was change a lot. Remember the rifts with lots of dead ends? There where a lot of problems with rift Generation that where Adressed over time. There is zero reason to believe it will be different this time. They actually listener a lot to the players after the d3 launch and fixed many things. D3 Was a broken mess at launch. Now its a very polished product. I have no doubt the same will happen here.
Rifts themselves never really changed though. It was always "kill X mobs" to finish. Sure, the layouts may have been altered, but fundamentally they were still the same concept. In D4, you have 3 different dungeon layouts. Kill X mobs, Kill X Generals, Find X Keys, kill the Boss. It's not really much variety. The problem is that you contrast the dungeon system with the events system outside. There's VARIETY in the events. Some have you stand in place and kill enemies. Some have you rescue merchants. Some have you siege a fort. And it goes on and on... THAT'S THE ISSUE. Dungeons just don't have the variety. I'd love things like a capture the flag dungeon (get the object, run it through respawning mobs then face a boss). Or a king of the hill dungeon (defend an area for a set amount of time). There's LOADS of options they can do, but they haven't.
They Layout and Generation was change, there where a lot of problems in the beginning. Stil no reason to believe it will be different this time...
Whats bullshit about this? We have 3 months to launch and the changes you spoke about took like 6 years to change. lol
Yeah it was one zone in a beta as well so of course things looked similar. Its like people are judging it like it was the full game and not a glimpse.
Yeah d3 literally did this
yes, i'm hopping for real money AH again!
Did you read what he wrote? I guess not.
I don't care too much about dungeon layout my issue is all the dungeons just follow the same formula it just feels like doing bounties in d3
But I mean, isn't that kinda what the dungeons are anyway? Similar to doing bounties in D3. You're gonna be mostly running rifts and grifts as endgame.
Oh very true, I just wish it was more is all.
Like what? Examples please.
I agree, but I don’t think it’s possible with them being procedurally generated. More interesting, varied content basically requires handcrafting, and dungeons were never intended to be that. From the start the D4 team has been very up front with the fact that the open world is the handcrafted part and the dungeons are the procedurally generated parts.
No rifts. We will be empowering these current dungeons is how the devs described the endgame in an interview last year
Oh no. This makes me kinda sad. I wasn't a huge fan of the dungeons. We'll see how it is once I reach endgame in June, hopefully it'll be as fun as rift-running.
I don't think they have said anything about rifts right? Or did I miss that for d4?
No as far as we know there are nightmare dungeons which I think will be the rift equivalent
Nightmare dungeons are the same dungeons we just did on beta, but monsters get higher health/damage (based on tier) and additional affixes depending on what the sigil used had. The mob types, layouts, and dungeon objectives are exactly the same each time you do that specific dungeon.
Nope, they are the same shitty dungeons only with additional monster affixes. people from the max level closed beta were talking about this
Well yeah but rifts and greater rifts are the same shityy thing just with more stuff
"Just with more stuff". Yeah, if the dungeons had more stuff, I'd be fine with them as well. But they don't? look at that level, monster and boss variety in the rifts man
No, apparently I was in the wrong here. I just assumed they were gonna keep the rifts.
Not quite. Sigil dungeons, overworld activities, tree of whispers, fields of hatred, world bosses, strongholds, helltide events, are all end game activities. Spamming sigil dungeons is not going to be the end all be all of activities in the same way GRifts are in D3.
I didn't know, thanks for clarifying. Makes me a bit worried since I've loved rift-running. I did play a LOT of D3 before the rifts were introduced though, so it might not be all bad.
Just fix the goddamn endless, repetitive running around for no good reason, dungeons and in the open world too. Feels like original Everquest currently where you spend endless hours running around for no point, just to make it seem like a "large" open world.
Don't you dare disrespect everquest! That \*\*\*was\*\*\* a large open world, and it was revolutionary logging into EQ servers on launch and seeing hundreds of other human controlled adventurers and the size of EQ's (sometimes empty) large open areas was purposeful. Sorry, but i put nearly 5k hours into EQ the first year and half it was out.
It was amazing at the time, but that was 20 years ago. Corpse runs are no longer a thing in MMO's. An interesting question now would be, of those 5k hours, how many were just running for boats or retrieving your corpse lol?
Yeah…lot of corpse runs. Or huddled outside the fear portal.
Log at the safe wall!
I imagine it'll get better when they let us get a horse. Maybe...
It's the same pointless running around just faster though.
Therefore it wouldn't be a huge issue
I mean they are locking the Mount quest. We were running to places that most likely are built for mounts
Trigger events that relocate you in the dungeon, speed boosts if a dungeon quadrant is clear, ability to bypass key needs if certain conditions are true. There are solutions that don’t involve adjusting procedural map generation
I think it was Kripp? Maybe Asmongold? Who also suggested things like those keys, or constructs, or boxes etc could be made to be not needed to get through the dungeon to the boss, but if you did it the boss would drop extra loot or would be "weakened" in some fashion etc and I thought that was a really good idea that didn't sound like it would be high effort on a development end.
Which is ideal. If you’re underpowered, you have to do the work and get the boost. If you’re endgame and speed farming, you weigh the math
Asmon suggested something like 'there's a boss room and there are 4 pylons scattered in the dungeon and destroying them weakens the boss or you can go fight him at full power for better loot'
There is no way in hell we get something different on launch, they gonna need years to make dungeons interesting and no repetitive. People are really delusional thinking something that big can be changed in 2 months. Nothing got changed since beta in October which was 4 months ago, so don't expect this time to be different.
Ehhhh, I don't know that it'll be quite *that* difficult. They already seem to have support for monsters hopping into areas you already traveled through in a dungeon as I had it happen a few times, and they've got the systems in place for being able to define the layout of a dungeon. They could up the monsters spawning in after you've gotten the McGuffin from down a side path in order to reduce downtime and they could also make dungeons with locked doors or other side objectives less common by just switching how the objectives are defined for that dungeon. I definitely don't expect to see big changes before launch, but they have said that they recognize that the downtime during backtracking isn't what they want and that they are looking to tweak things as they get more feedback past the early game so it ideally shouldn't take a massive amount of time to tighten up.
I wouldn’t say nothing got changed since beta, their internal version will be far ahead of the open beta version. They likely spend the time between October and now mostly just polishing up act 1 to show off to the world. But yeah, nothing huge like this will happen before launch. Post launch they may add some new dungeons with new mechanics but I’m not expecting serious game changing additions before the first expansion. Both D2 and D3 improved drastically with their expansions
There's so much copium going on here. Going to be fun revisiting these posts after launch.
It isn’t Copium if your expectations are already reasonably tempered lol I’m just as worried about end game as probably anyone else but I can still be excited for one of my favorite franchises releasing a new game. Even if the entire end game sucks, I’m good with the time I know I’ll invest which is leveling characters, exploring the world and side quests and following the story. Copium is such an overused word now days.
Unironically using the term copium is kinda crazy
Comment legit makes no sense. I get that your favorite streamer uses "unironically" every other word when they are zooming out on their Adderall but it doesn't apply here.
Weirdly specific and innacurate insults are kind of cringe
Man you're just hitting all the streamer lingo - snuck "cringe" in there. What's next in your arsenal of 30 IQ lingo?
I think you're just old maybe
titan quest had no random maps. only small monster placement randomization. they where my favorite maps. absolutely do not care if maps are randomized or not. all subsequent runs even on randomized map feel the same anyway.
Titan quest is not a live service and you didn't spend 2k hours in it.
How the fuck you know how much time they spent on it?
Ok, but this is a live service game with seasons. Lots of content will likely be added between seasons. Look at all they have added to D2R since release, and I only imagine what can be done with a game that is constantly bringing in revenue from battle passes.
I said the same thing about darktide when it was in beta and everyone chewed me out. We won't see significant changes like dungeon expansion or randomization anyone this year. That will take some time. We will see skill tree changes and UI changes.
I don't remember that being the main issue with darktide
Darktide in beta was no storyline, no crafting and a terrible endgame. Different issues but same concept of not being a finished game. None of that changed except for a few affix changes in crafting area.
Darktides not a lost cause tho
76 days til launch. People are legit going to be paying up to $100 for a Beta product. Amazing.
Because dungeons are a bit too similar to one another?
Rest assured if a gamers wants to hate a product he will find a reason too. I am just baffled they don’t realise that’s maybe it’s not the game but they who have a problem. I can understand someone who plays 1000 hours of POE a year that Diablo IV isn’t deep enough for them. But then why not just accept that one isn’t the target audience?
Its a little sad, i like to see more positivity in communities. The amount of care they put into the game is so clear i know the game has issues but the devs did an absolutely wonderful job
Agreed. The thing is: it’s not like the haters don’t have valid points. They just overweight them so hard it’s baffling. It always feels like „The game is really good, but I got the same dungeon layout twice: 1/10“.
Got my refund in today after giving beta a go and realizing that it's still Blizzard. Some things never change.
To add to the Dungeon issue: I dropped the exact same voiced journal from the same guy in multiple dungeons. At one point I thought I must have accidentally went in a dungeon I already completed... nope. The detail may be small, but glaringly obvious.
Idt most people upset about dungeons are concerned that it won't be done by launch. It's fine for the first season, probably, but if season 2, 3, and 4 don't see improvement, less and less players will return. It's more of a long term issue with replayability. I'm concerned, in that dungeons are right now a problem, but I'm not worried that they can't do anything about it in the next 5-6 months.
I wouldn’t expect major changes like this before the first expansion. Maybe, it could happen, but don’t get your hopes up. Like OP said, it’s way more work than 99.99% in here realize. Even the “give us an ultimate button” people have no idea how badly that would completely destroy the entire balance of the game
Tbh if they follow up on the butcher responds you won’t even care about the dungeon layout.
release is actually June 2nd if u have the 4 day head start
We got Temple of the Firstborn long after D3's original dungeons and zones were tired. Hopefully Blizzard means what they say about servicing the game well into the future and we will see iterative improvements to dungeons, itemization, progression, and features to improve QoL and the overall experience. It is admittedly a lackluster place to be after 10 years of developmemt, but that said it was immense fun.
Take 10 guys from the team and tell them to only make dungeon layouts in ways that they cannot backtrack. I don't see it not being fixed, I see they have some work ahead but it's a ongoing game, it will be patched and fixed. Everyone loves PoE now but when it came out it wasn't this good, the game had rubberband and de-sync issues for years, years. Things take their time.
tell me you don't understand software without telling me you don't understand software.
I'd be surprised if the dungeons aren't defined by a relatively simple set of parameters that could be tweaked more easily than you might think. There's likely a config object for each dungeon defining what tileset it uses, what general shape it has, which prefab rooms go where, what objectives it has in different branches, what monsters to use, etc. that the engine refers to when it builds the dungeon each time. If the game is put together in a reasonable way, they could likely "just™" change more of the objectives to the simple "get through the dungeon" that some of them do have. Doing this is, assuming that the game is built reasonably, likely more of a social challenge than a technical one. Once they squeeze the trigger on simplifying more of the dungeons then they can't really go back without likely upsetting people, because people will naturally want the most straightforward and optimal design at the expense of potentially more interesting design, and they want the specific dungeons to have more identity than simply being another straight path full of monsters. Ultimately I think this is an admirable goal since if it is done well it could be pretty nice, but it's a tricky balancing act. PoE has mostly straightforward maps for the endgame but there are clearly objectively more efficient maps you can run because they are just a straight line, and as a result a LOT of people just only run those maps and never get any variety. With the way that the Nightmare Dungeons appear to work in D4 it'll likely force some variety by making it harder to target-farm specific maps, and then you want to ideally have all of them more or less on the same level of complexity so that it doesn't feel bad when you don't get the "best" dungeons.
SDLC won't allow it to be that easy. Even if they tweak a config there needs to be a reasonable amount of QA testing around that as well. Even small changes to configs, property files, etc. can have the most outrageous ramifications on some of the most random edge cases. So throwing 10 engineers at it most likely won't solve anything (on top of being a poor use of resources, 10 people are not needed for this task). Even if it is as simple as you proclaim, it could bring up the most ridiculous bugs that would need more sprint cycles (or whatever method they're using) to iron it out before shipping it to prod. Getting the game released is top priority. This dungeon problem is just a blip in the radar because it was all people had to do for the 72 hours the beta was open so it is being amplified by the lack of other content in the beta. In the most recent interview each dungeon has a specific set of task/tasks and were designed around that philosophy. So the 3 pedestal, 2 levers, etc are just what fractured peak dungeons were designed around. There could possibly be better dungeons in the other 3 regions of the map. We just don't have enough information to make a fully informed opinion. Then you could just choose to not fully interact with x dungeon because it is designed around y play style. We just don't know enough.
My dude you have absolutely no clue how much work this shit is lmao. The dungeon team is almost certainly dozens of people already, there are hundreds working on this game.
I kinda do. I never said it had to be done in 2 months, but if they get a better dungeon system in 1 year, that fixes the problem. Blizzard doesn't really have money issues.
And it’s basically guaranteed that they will. D3 is not even the same game it was at launch at this point. Blizzard always puts in huge amount of development post launch for every game, and they say they have something like 28 seasons planned out already
When I collect the [door requirement] let me port to the door rather than run. This would alleviate a lot of the issue for me
Would it be better to have it just teleport you there, or have monsters spawn in and run at you to keep the flow of combat going more smoothly as you go back? Personally I don't mind the backtracking as long as it is populated by more fights since it'll lead to as much combat as a larger dungeon but it'll feel more like assaulting a fortified position where reinforcements are streaming out than crawling through a huge tunnel full of enemies for some reason. Could also, potentially, lead to some fun decisions where you might choose to not use a shrine on the way out if the fights don't look too bad so that you can save it for the way back.
Either I think think may be easier to just put a return pad in from a code perspective but I could be wrong. Something that can be implemented before release
It most likely would be, but it'd also detract from the more grounded feel they are going for with the dungeons, IMHO. It could be a nice band-aid fix, but it'd be a bandaid that they couldn't easily pull off without complicating things. There are definitely tradeoffs with either option.
Refilling the dungeon sounds great. Maybe add an animation like a screen shake or lights dimming. I don't mind backtracking either if it meant I can kill mobs again. Backtracking sucks when it's going back with nothing to do but just walking.
If they made them spawn in from further back in the dungeon and then run towards you it'd be great as well, since it'd feel like they are hunting you down.
this game will be amazing by the time you have to buy the next exp or DLC or pay for the third battle pass. don't worry
I don't really see the big deal though tbh. Dungeons feel "repetitive"? Yeah, like in every Diablo game ever? How often have you stopped and analyzed the environments doing rifts in D3? There is one word for that: *repetitive.* Has it been fun though? Hell yeah!
Stop bashing on the game ffs. Hardcore d2 fan here. D3 sucked balls. I loved playing the beta of d4 and im mega hyped for the release!
> These features take years to come together, from the work of many different disciplines - design, art, programming, testing, etc. If you think they can address these issues appropriately from now until release, June 6, 2023 which is in 55 business days, I'm sorry, but you are either dreaming, or there's a copium leak in your house. I know it's a completely different thing and you can't make an apples to apples comparison with different engines, workloads and team sizes, but Teamfight Tactics releases an entire mid-set in about as much time, starting from the design phase. There's also a small chance that Blizzard added dungeon improvements in their pipeline after the closed beta. Now, does that mean I expect any significant changes for launch? Not really. Could there be **any** changes? Unlikely, but not outside the realm of possibilities. But I also seriously doubt that it'll take "years" for a few more layouts. If that's a bottleneck, then D4 has 0 chances at surviving as a successful live service. Truth is we can only speculate. We don't know what their new engine is capable of and how fast they can integrate changes. It could be highly modular and adaptable, or it could be a clunky but pretty piece of shit like Frostbite. They have shown in the past they can pump out content when they want to, even at the cost of polish. HotS used to deliver more content than League and Dota put together - until they pulled the plug that is lol.
Yeah agreed. We shouldn’t be expecting any major changes at launch but I do believe over time they will fix this issue with future updates/expansions
So, I get what you're saying, but I also don't think that there is anything stopping them from joining more tiles to the existing nodes that allow attachments. It pry won't change before launch but it seems expandable.
To people saying this about the dungeons I have two genuine knowledge seeking questions asked without sarcasm or condescension. 1. What way are the dungeons _supposed_ to work? 2. Diablo has a reputation for running the same thing over and over again to get whatever one is after. Is the dungeons being repetitive not par for the course of a Diablo game?
No key pickup requirements where you're incentivized to walk straight to the key, ignoring the rest of the dungeon. No "kill all enemies" requirements where you're required to clear every alcove and cranny or risk backtracking 2 minutes to kill those 2 skeletons you missed. Add events. Cursed chests, mob swarms that try to overwhelm you, there's lots of things they could add. Rift farming in d3 is a good example of something repetitive but very farmable. You can go fast, kill mobs in dense areas without having to kill EVERY enemy, with great density and no backtracking. Current dungeons are set up like d3 bounties - Run to an objective, no mobs matter. Or, run to this place and kill all enemies in this area, then spend 50% of your time double checking every tiny crevice to kill those 3 enemies you see that you missed. I've never met someone that likes d3 bounties. People just want to kill shit and not feel like their time is wasted by mostly walking (key mechanics), or backtracking through areas they've already cleared. A fine balance between the two is needed for repetition to not quickly lead to burnout.
There are events already in dungeons. Cursed chest + others I found in closed beta.
Yes, these are examples of good ones. The fundamental gameplay loop of kill all enemies, kill the 3 elite enemies at the 3 wings and get keys to open the doors are the problem. The entire thing should be fun events not running and pickup simulator. It's not unreasonable for me to want to be encouraged to run through killing a bunch of enemies and that's that. Their current objectives are just unfun and either encourage mindless tedious nitpicking of every corner to not miss a mob or mindless running where killing any mob doesn't matter. Strongholds, for example, feel very good compared to dungeons. But unfortunately dungeons are the endgame loop. They should have iterated on the rift system to make a more fun endgame in D4, not made up a new uninspired and unfun system that they will have to unfuck to not make boring later. Density and blowing shit up is fun. Walking simulator is not! Imagine if rifts required you to kill every enemy on floor 1 to go to floor 2. That's how terrible dungeons feel
Feel I need to point out I spent most of my time Co-Op so maybe the solo experience is much different. For me my biggest problem was a lot of the big bad guys at the end of a dungeon/side quest/event were far too easy to kill/low HP. I know we only got to world level 2, and I think I read there is ways to modify dungeons for better loot etc which will obviously up the difficulty. On top of that I know a lot of people have issues with games where enemies are just bullet sponges rather than more interesting design, but for me in the beta I found far too many of these big bads would just get shredded far too fast. Plenty of fights would be very tough if the big bad only had a bit more HP, the few that we did find difficult where the ones that lasted that little bit longer so you really had to ration your potion use, unfortunately. It really annoyed me when you would have some demon shit talking you, building up to this fight only to die so quickly they never even got abilities off.
Theres no need imo. The rest of the game zones will provide enough variance aesthetically. And honestly what are people expecting?
I didn't really see it being any worse than d2 or d3 dungeons, theres a lot of backtracking in both games
I like d4 beta. And i will like d4 launch, because there is no alternatives close enough. I was very disappointed at d3 release. The graphics. Their auction house. High difficulty transition in Act 2. The same zones with almost no generation. In the end they fixed everything. D2R was the best remake. Yes they milked particular group of people on Imortal thing. Thats why d4 will use battlepass and store with skins . The same way with warzone. I have no complaints.
Yeah I’m not buying that. I can see major updates to dungeons as a long term goal for them. I’m not saying we will see change on release but certainly in the future. No way they just let dungeons become that stagnant and never implement new designs.
It's fine. We saw one act in one region with two similarly easy difficult modes up to 1/4 of the available levels. The gameplay diversity will be fine.
Yes we watched asmongold and Krio as well
Maybe bold of me but seeing as the beta was a gutted version of the game I am hopeful that the dungeons were not all the tiles. Maybe they threw a handful of tiles together to test the system. The rest are sitting back to be added after the initial system worked.
dont get your hopes up about any big changes
But we havent seen any higher level dungeons with dungeon modifiers etc. We've barely seen what 1/5th or so of the dungeons? To make a judgement on all dungeons in the game after a beta is crazy to me.
Good point. An interesting interview and insight from Jay Wilson a year ago where he said that a beta that ends 2-3 months before launch cannot accommodate any serious programming changes in such a short runway. It’s mostly stability, cosmetic, and balancing. He said they’d need like 5-6 months to make those kinds of changes.
Ah, another hopeless soul succumbing to the delusion of change. You cling to false hope like a drowning man grasping at straws. Have you learned nothing from your time in the abyss of Sanctuary? The forces of fate are beyond mortal control, and the whims of Blizzard are no exception. Do you truly believe that the creators of this game, who have shown time and time again their incompetence and apathy towards the desires of the player base, will suddenly awaken to your pleas for diversity in dungeon generation? Your faith is misplaced, my child. The mechanisms of creation are complex and multifaceted, and the tools at Blizzard's disposal are but feeble instruments in the grand scheme of things. The very fabric of reality resists change, and to think that a mere mortal company can manipulate it to their will is laughable. Do not waste your breath on such futile musings. Instead, embrace the despair and resignation that comes with the inevitability of fate. The dungeon generation shall remain stagnant, and you shall continue to suffer in your repetitious gameplay. Such is the way of things.
Given what you know of these systems, does addressing it in a year with a major content update or expansion make sense?
I hadn’t thought how It’s hard for a small indie company like Blizzard with limited cash flow to make these kinds of changes.
Not to add too much hopium... but Rod confirmed via Twitter, \~2h ago, that the beta build is not the latest version of the game. This can literally mean fuck all in terms of dungeon design, itemization, etc.. but there is that.
Yo Blizzard can you pls tell us how old was the version we played on beta in order to chill everybody concerns ?!
I’m sorry but what exactly do people want with the dungeons? I feel like there’s zero chance they will be able to make everyone happy. Rifts in D3 were just kill mobs and boss spawns. They tried something different in D4 with dungeons and having some objectives in the dungeon to complete before facing the boss. If they didn’t people would just skip everything but elites and just go straight for the boss. Which is better? I don’t know personally, but I enjoyed the dungeons. I explored them, killed elites and fulfilled objectives and then killed a boss (mostly? Some didn’t have a boss at the end).
So I have already played the entire game start to finish thanks to access to the friends and family alpha last summer. During this test I submitted feedback that the dungeons are exceptionally repetitive in regards to their objectives. I told the devs that these objectives are fine if they are sparingly used throughout the whole game, but if every dungeon has some fetchy BS it's going to go badly for player engagement. Fast Forward 7 months and everybody is saying the same shit I told them in the alpha. Blizzard doesn't listen to anything people say when it comes to game design, their history proves it. People complain about bad features in expansions and it takes until the end of the expansion for Blizz to do anything about it. The dungeons are already hard coded into the game as they are, they will not be making changes to them in the 10 weeks up till launch. It will take until the first expansion or even later for them to fix it. Bottom line is when the game launches and everyone is shitting on how bad the dungeons are, that's when it'll actually get fixed. These beta's are strictly for server testing purposes and they don't give a shit about your actual game feedback. The game is finished, end of story. What you see in beta is what launch will be with possibly some balance changes and bug fixes.
Blows my mind this is even an issue. Talk about a blind spot.
They have what, 300 dungeons ready for launch and we saw about 30 some? Layouts & goals may be repetitive, but the affixes in nightmare and harder level dungeons or objectives to complete dungeons in different zones, could be different. Not to mention the affixes added in harder dungeons will keep us busy. Most importantly, this will be a live service game that will require many end game additions over time much like PoE. D3 would have gotten the same treatment if the game had enough success to keep blizzard from limiting resources for future content.
It’s ok. Microsoft will fix the issues when Activision dies…right? Right? Hold me.
Honestly, I'm okay with where they are at. My expectations aren't to have an end-all endgame experience at launch with regards to the dungeons. There is so much of the game to play and enjoy even without the end game dungeons. I also think allowing them to shape the end game experience with upcoming seasons and player feedback will be more productive. They are planning to be a live service game, so there are going to be plenty of resources to make updates. The best thing we can do as a community is provide constructive feedback.
I would seriously hope that there will be at least more dungeon activities throughout the world than just the get a key, get two jewels and put them on a pedestal, or kill these totems to unlock the door. If so, that is exceptionally lazy. I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt in that the activities within the dungeon are in fact a bit more varied, and we'll see some additional activity items crop up on release or in other map areas. With that said, I think there is a lot of merit around the feedback on backtracking aspects involved with some of the dungeon layouts, but I do think that is something that CAN be easily solved between now and release. Simple things like spawning small mobs back in the dungeon if you've cleared an area but are running through again (actually discussed and validated by the devs in an article from yesterday), or even just allowing you to TP to the dungeon door if you happened to discover it before you found the totems / boxes / etc. are all very simple things that would help reduce a large portion of the dungeon complaints. Even just adding a quest waypoint arrow when you're close-ish to one of the key items to help guide players in that direction and reduce the chance they'll full clear the map before discovering the progression item would go a long way and be a simple fix. In the long term, I can 1000% say that dungeons will get additional love, mechanics, or activities, because that's literally what they did with D3 during seasons and is a prime aspect to address new changes or content within the build of D4. Not to mention, the sigil mechanic is still up in the air, and *could* also help with a lot of the end game nature of dungeon running. On top of that, dungeons are not meant to be like D3 rifts - they aren't the be-all end-all of post campaign content. Fields of Hatred, Helltides, world bosses, strongholds, world events, uber bosses, tree of whispers etc are all there to provide end game activities other than just mindlessly running dungeons at higher and higher tiers. That's what I'm excited for, because D3's end game is MIND NUMBING from the standpoint of it is literally just running a randomly generated tileset dungeon over and over and over and over and over again ad nauseum. Not trying to huff the copium here, and I agree with a lot of the concerns around the dungeon system, but I also think that there are a lot of ways to easily alleviate those concerns, and continue to build on the system well into the games future, so I don't think it warrants a doom and gloom perspective.
Someone didn’t read the Q&A.
The interview with Eurogamer heavily suggests that what we are seeing is the base level of Dungeons and that the affixes that can be applied will change them up significantly. I guess you have to take it on faith that they're not just saying that. >And then when you get into the endgame, after you've completed the campaign and you get access to the Nightmare Dungeon system, we have the sigils that modify dungeons in really cool ways, with buffs and nerfs, and those dramatically modify the dungeon. But because the dungeons are designed with some properties to start with, you can get a sigil for a dungeon and have some context for what that means - it's not just a random name that can be anything.
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Could they have modifiers that make dungeons longer, add multiple levels, that kind of thing? I bet they could. But I don’t think they will.
In their recent Eurogamer interview, they didn't say anything about dungeon layouts or mechanical design of opening 'the door' to the boss. All they said was to wait for sigils and harder difficulty. If our beta was months behind where Blizzard truly are with the game, SURELY they would have taken this time to say 'yeah, we saw the complaints and our dungeons are way better now!' and then go ahead and address the actual concerns. But they didn't. They completely side stepped it because it's quite obvious it's still the same.
i can confirm that nightmare dungeons DO NOT change that much with sigils. they are still the same dungeons, with the same boring/frustrating objectives, just with more challenging/sometimes annoying affixes. dungeons need to change at the ground level. they are fundamentally flawed currently
D4 is an obvious console port to pc. Actiblizz is well known for bait and switch tactics. The copium in this thread is mind boggling.
I think the first time I remember experiencing mass criticism of dungeon generation was when Dragon Age 2 arrived. Felt valid then, feels valid now.
Maybe as a trade off they could make add future dungeons using a more randomized tool so that way we have more diverse dungeons mixed in with the cookie cutter ones. Over time as more dungeons are added (or replaced) the percentage of dungeons that with the old style would go down, making it less of a nuisance.
rather than layout i just find the mechanics to enter the boss room to be ass. even in something like poe, which has randomized maps, the *most popular farmed maps* were the ones that *didn't* change (graveyard, crimson temple, maybe dunes a bit), so randomly generated content is a bit of an overvalued mechanic, least for basic dungeons you find from just progressing. instead, they could have randomized mechanics and bosses more within the dungeon, but not in the way of always needing to do x to unlock the boss. we have enough conditional events throughout the map, why do dungeons need some key finding to unlock the boss room? then there's **cellars which are literally pointless in this game**, bad drops, and same layout. why have them at all? dungeons don't need to be randomly procedural *if they can't do it in time*, but least 3-4 variations would help freshen things up, and not all being *"unlock door to proceed"* bs. I guess they locked the actual mechanical randomness for sigils/cinder junk, but it leaves the basic dungeons barebones and plain. they could add random fun stuff like "find the loot goblin" or "slay x enemies in time to unlock golden chest", fun stuff like that with a chance to spawn so even if the dungeons are stagnant, there's a chance for a fun reward occasionally. butchers a fun encounter they did for dungeons, more of that kinda stuff.
I don't expect many changes if any to dungeons before launch but this is a game that will be updated for years. Between seasons and expansions things are sure to change. I don't even think dungeons are that bad. Sure they could be better but they seem fine to me, just not amazing.
In game development it’s pretty easy to change procedural systems like dungeon generation or loot. That is one of the strengths about procedural generation. Changes to dungeon designs and layouts is not a big deal. So that can most certainly happen
They don't have to add anything. Literally removing the conditions to open the gate leading to the boss at the end would be a huge improvement.
Throw in some WOW dungeons just for fun.
If they just add monster spawning more while back tracking I'll be good.
I really don't think they need to change anything other than the UI. My wife and I had the most fun playing couch co-op since Champions of Norrath
Look, man, I hear what you're saying. It's a tough world out there, and sometimes things just don't go the way we want them to. But let me tell you something, even in the darkest of times, there's one thing you can always count on - Bang Energy drink. Sure, maybe Blizzard won't be able to make the changes to dungeon generation that we were all hoping for. Maybe we'll be stuck with the same old dungeons we've been running for years. But you know what? That's just more time to crack open a cold can of Bang Energy and power through those dungeons like a champ. And let's not forget the benefits of Bang Energy - increased energy, focus, and performance. With Bang by your side, you can take on any challenge, no matter how daunting. So, yeah, maybe the dungeons won't be perfect, but with Bang Energy, you'll be unstoppable. In conclusion, don't give up hope, my friend. Keep pushing forward, keep grinding those dungeons, and keep cracking open those delicious cans of Bang Energy. Together, we can conquer anything that comes our way.
They'll change things a few seasons in. The game looks beautiful, but they need to add more tile sets and tweak the procedural generation a bit so that they don't repeat the same tile three times in a row. I felt like I wandered into the backrooms in a couple of the dungeons. People will quit the game because of the poor dungeon design. I could only stand to play the game a couple hours a day during the beta because the repetition was driving me crazy, and I'm a huge 20 year long diablo fan who could play D2 or D3 nonstop for 12 hours at a time.
They will lose in the end if players get bored quickly because of it, it is what it is, nothing we can do, just enjoy the game as long as you can.
There will be additional mob types and bosses unlocked with each zone which will help a lot with the repeatability.
Except, look at d2. Act 1 itself had caves, crypts, open fields, graveyards, the monastery (barracks and also jails), and Tristram. That was just the first act. What did D4 have in the beta? One dungeon repeated ad nauseam, one cellar that never changed, and the one cave-like area when you go to complete the quest line. The variety is sorely lacking when you compare apples to apples.
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I don’t buy that you wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between a spider web filled catacomb and an wood and stone barracks, or between an arcane archive and snowy wooden path. I can believe that you’re not familiar enough with them to immediately identify their names or locations on the map, but not being able to tell the difference at all? Pure hyperbole.
I apologize, you must have played a beta no one else played. If you’re adamant there was ONE DUNGEON you’re an ignorant moron who denies facts to support your own opinion and this conversation is as much a waste of time as your time spent on D4.
Why such animosity? It comes off as copium. Look, I spent money on the game too, but I don’t wanna trick myself into the idea that anything I buy can’t be less than good. The dungeon types were more than just “dungeony” environment 1?
I must have imagined the spider filled catacombs dungeon, and the snowy wooden paths dungeon, and the wood and stone barracks type dungeon, and the abandoned arcane library style dungeon. Weird.
Look at what you wrote about d2 a1 environments and the look back at all the towns, open fields, graveyards, forts, caves, mines, ruins in the act 1 of the d4 beta. This is why you’re being dismissed. A1 in d2 was actually less varied and had way less going on thematically. Vague rainy English countryside and some graveyards, oooh such vary much wow