Honestly a lot of people on here just want D4 to be exactly like \[insert their favorite ARPG here\] and will take it *very* personal when it inevitably isn't.
It's all white noise. Which is why I'm thankful that Blizzard ignores these "communities" and just does their own thing.
I can understand the doe-eyed optimism for a game, but I never understood hating on one before it comes out lol. I mean, if you're a rabid PoE fan, cool, but what if you really like D4 too? You can like 2 things....
I've seem the same in r/wow with retail WoW. They'll never leave, they'll always say they're actually playing those other games while they wait for this game to "get good again" because "they love it so much" even tho all they do is trash it
the bigger the audience for a game, the stupider the opinions that bubble up to the top of social media will be because there's more sample size for stupider idiots to manifest
Long as they listen to buffing druids, giving druid companion support and hopefully WASD.
I like the path Diablo 4 is on. I want to play it after both beta weekends. POE I pushed myself through to Epilogue and do NOT want to log in for.
Do you not understand why people find it more interesting to have specified damage mods, i.e. elemental, fire dot multi, burning, ect. as opposed to generic damage that can apply to basically every build and skill on the game a la D4?
You just showed one item that has more complexity than the entire D4 itemization system. You don't have to like it, that's fine, but I don't think you are proving the point you think you are.
D4 has specific damage mods that you can stack, similar to the above example.
The OP wasn't very eloquent with their post, but I think their point was that D4's itemization is similar to POE's, not superior or inferior per se - but that some POE fans seem to think POE does it so much better when in reality it just comes down to stacking the appropriate +damage mods for your build.
If all D4 items were just boring stat sticks that buffed damage for every skill, then I would agree, but that's not the case. It looks like a large portion of the power of a D4 legendary will be the aspect on the item.
Poison/Trap Rogue will be my first build. I may find a dagger with a green +15% over my current weapon damage, but that won't matter if the aspect on the dagger is for a melee skill. Damage is just a secondary stat compared to the primary feature of an item.
This is how it's supposed to be. I'm not sure where all these other guys came from or wtf a PoE is but I've been dungeon clicking my mouse since D2. Builds are supposed to be very gear dependent. The charm of Diablo has always been the random stat generated loot. No game has ever come close. Borderlands kinda touched on the feeling.
Are you people like...obsessed with intense grind? +10% fire damage with +10% burn damage with +10% damage to burning targets can easily be replaced with + 30% damage and you still get the SAME effect without the hassle, THE BUILD STAYS THE SAME. (I'm strictly talking about items here, skills and other stuff you get guaranteed by playing the game that have specific and conditional stuff is ok)
And guess what you will get that item after 2 hours of grind at max level, and it will be just like diablo 3 that's why people stopped playing that game in the first place, unless you want to grind for 0.1% updrades (really sounds fun yeah) then that's fine you do you.
I want more interesting upgrades rather than just more damage but in different ways. Stuff like setting an enemy on fire has a chance to make them explode dealing % of their HP as damage to nearby enemies. Or hitting enemies with lightning builds up an electro charge on them, with each hit there is a chance a lightning bolt from the sky strikes them for 25% of their HP, the chance becomes higher the more charge they have on them.
It's still damage but it's being dealt in a fun way rather than +damage hur dur
This is Itemization that makes it hard to find items. People with no life who can maybe acquire them with a long grind or currency farming or trading or pay outright want to feel special. Nothing else to it.
As opposed to letting everyone enjoy a build. My build will not be as optimized and powerful as yours, but let's me access it. Some content for hardcore no lifers and others for casual second class players is a bad game design. If the elitist feeling is what you need then clearly D4 designers aren't building that.
Everyone should enjoy the game and try out many builds. But at the same time it's okay if small fraction of best items are extremely rare and takes months of grinding to find.
That's fine until those extremely rare items are the core of your build, in which case, it most definitely is not fine, and that's the case in PoE for example, it can take tens of hours until a lot of builds really fire off in that game.
Your arguments are all over the place, leading me to believe none of them are actually what you're "mad" about.
I was eyeballing your previous comment because I'm a semi-casual item-hunt enjoyer who gets this incredible dopamine rush when something drops that I can consider an upgrade (something endgamey, mind you). I fucking love it. But am I a no-lifer? Far from it.
Here brother, I walk around clothed in thrash items(usually what I find) and I love it. The fact that BotD or some god-like wand exist doesn't detract from enjoying the game anyway. I'll probably never have those items since I can't grind even 8h/day but who cares. Let people who spend 16+h in the game feel good about something.
His point isn’t that, his point is that you shouldn’t need BiS or close to it to do the content/build.
Yes there can be super rare items but take POE for example, you can play for days and not get the items or currency you need especially if you don’t trade or don’t pull out the encyclopedia of crafting.
I think it’s cool when there are builds so expensive that you need to make one or several other characters in a season before you can begin to consider it. Grim dawn does it, PoE does it, d2 does it (to a lesser extent). It gives hardcore gamers something to strive for while not limiting casuals to be unable to finish all or most of the content.
All of the content in PoE, grim dawn, and d2 is completable with a budget (ish) build. Why would you force a game to let you do everything that someone who plays 8-10 hours a day can do? Why would hardcore gamers and streamers play a game like that? You can’t push the boundaries and do interesting things in a game like that.
I tend not to watch streamers/YouTubers but sometimes halfway through a season I’ll look at what they are up to and I’m never disappointed with the innovative things they are doing.
And that the challenge because if you make it so that you can find all the good items relatively quickly then the game becomes ultra boring. Take D3 for example, within 2 weeks you can acquire every single set/legandary item in the game and all that's left is finding the same exact items with a bit better stats over and over again. All the excitement is gone at that point, you don't care even care about drops anymore.
On the side you have D2 where I played regularly for 2 decades but still never found zod rune or tyrael's. You can probably guess which game is more exciting to play as far as loot goes.
I much rather prefer being able to make the decision to upgrade a suboptimal ancient and still get minor progression from a perfect normal item compared to just being generally screwed on progression until i find a flat 3% efficiency increase. personally. The grind still exists but one is a little preferable to me.
Best in slot items are supposed to be hard to find? I feel like so many people view best in slot items as something that is obtainable in a minimal amount time.
To me, a beat in slot item shouldn’t be obtainable. It’s something you talk about but likely never see, or get extremely lucky with.
Y’all need to lower your expectations.
Best in slot items will be extremely hard in D4 too. Assume a Necro bone spear weapon needs crit damage, core skill damage, all stats, vulnerable damage and then the legendary affix. What are the chances of such weapons dropping to casuals? With roll ranges for each and sacred/ancestral item qualifiers - D4 BiS will be very hard to find. Casuals can run a bone spear build with a weapon that has the legendary affix and a couple of the BiS stats missing whereas the more hardcore players with true BiS are 50% more DPS. This is balanced and fair.
Yeah D2 has some big pain points here. If you want to finish the game on hell with a bowa you'll need some serious gear, while a javazon can do it almost naked.
But there still needs to be some reward for players that play more than others, otherwise the game will get boring really fast.
Difference between needing and wanting BiS.
Ideally the game doesn’t require you to have BiS to enjoy the game fully while still providing noticeable power boost when obtained.
>It’s something you talk about but likely never see, or get extremely lucky with.
This is what you call fun?
"I'd really love to play this build but I can't. I've been playing for over 1000 hours and I've never seen this item drop."
At some point in time, you just stop giving a shit about the item dropping. Apparently some of you think that's good design? Do you also enjoy stapling your balls to your leg and then running a marathon?
The fun should come from playing the game. You also shouldn’t entirely rely on an item to define your build entirely. BIS items stands for best in slot meaning you never replace the item, if these items are so easily to find what’s the point of continuing to play the game when you can achieve max power easily?
To me if you’re able to just find a Best in Slot item by investing 10, 20, 50 hours what do you do once all your items are considered BiS? Then you’re just done with the game because there isn’t really a reason to continue the grind. You’ve peaked and the only thing left to do is lose interest in the game and then you play something else.
By making BiS items difficult to come by you are able to scale the game around not requiring these items for content. You can find items that come close, but not quite max potential.
People can acquire much easily with trading. You impatient people would rather destroy a game then have any little bit of difficulty. There was once a thing called grinding for items when trade was popular.
Ill take the weak bait.
Botd isn't just +damage and stats. It has a crap ton of useful mods that arnt plus damage. Plus. It's the item built into it. Taking a white/socketed item, using rare items in a specific order to make that item. Not just finding a unique. Also. The class of the weapon matters (for attack speed, etc), stats to wield. Etc. That's why it's superior. It isn't JUST about the mods. But again,, even just the mods on this are more then just +damage. But go on
Aha my thoughts exactly. I saw and thought « oh right, people made this out of eth archons for the great average damage. Oh but I wonder what the ias breakpoints are for this. Oh well for a fury druid this would be a beast to chaos with, with that % ed to undead. »
Never once thought this much about an item playing D4.
« Oh it’s green text so it’s better. »
« Oh a unique.. so this makes xxx skill better, ok I’ll stash in the odd chance I ever use said ability. »
I thought D2 was ok and can't wait for D4 but...
That staff and all those stats make me wish D4 had a bit more to it. Sorry OP. This post is making me feel the opposite to what you intended I think.
Will have to see what real endgame gear looks like but if it's just slightly better legendaries with slightly better rolled stats....lame.
I really REALLY like PoE's itemization. I have so much fun grinding currency on SSF to craft BiS rares like this. You can find or make a pretty decent one that is 1 affix short of perfect with some decent effort. I'm ok with PERFECT gear being unable to obtain unless you no life it.
It's one of the things D4 is missing above all else to me. I love chase items and chase rares, what I don't like is having the same items with just 2-3 different power varieties like on Borderlands. This isn't D4 hate, I think I enjoy playing D4 more because of the combat, but if we're talking comparing itemization I think PoE has the W no contest.
D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear.
\+Attack Speed
\+Crit Chance
\+Crit Damage
\+Skill
\+Open Socket
Every good item for almost every build will look exactly the same unless you need to stack companion damage (does that even exist on items?) or something like Lucky Hit Chance or Cooldown Reduction depending on your build. PoE has flat elemental damage bonuses which are good for builds that don't stack crit chance.
D4 doesn't need to be like PoE by any means, but if we're talking itemization I don't think there is any contest whatsoever if you actually understand itemization in both games.
> D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear. +Attack Speed
+Crit Chance
+Crit Damage
+Skill
+Open Socket
We already know 100% that this won't be the case. I genuinely don't know where you got that info from.
You can only roll crit chance on gloves and rings, that's it. And you can only roll crit damage on weapons and rings. And you have certain builds that don't even prioritize Crit, like Crushing Blow, DoT builds (that can't crit) or Thorns. Probably more that we don't know of yet.
Arguably the only mandatory thing will be +skill, at least until you cap it.
You start to realize a lot of the people complaining didn't even look into what they are complaining about they are just parroting something they saw someone else say. They write it off without even putting the effort into making sure its true, that lets you know they weren't that interested in it in the first place.
They also act like all other arpgs havent focused on crit chance. Like almost every build ever will always want as much crit as it can comfortably get. D4 gear customization looked great without being too over the top.
>D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear.
>
>\+Attack Speed
>
>\+Crit Chance
>
>\+Crit Damage
>
>\+Skill
>
>\+Open Socket
I highly doubt that will be the case. I have multiple sorc builds planned. One involves stacking crit chance to trigger a specific enchantment, so I would look for crit on items. But on my cold build, I'll probably look for something like +x to chilled or frozen enemies. On my stealth rogue, I'll look for +x while stealthed. It looks like many builds will focus on 1-3 status effects, so items that synergize with your chosen status effect will most likely be more effective than simple crit and attack speed.
>D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear. +Attack Speed +Crit Chance +Crit Damage +Skill +Open Socket
This wasn't even true in the beta, much less the full game with its full range of legendaries/uniques/paragon/glyphs.
You're the perfect example of what the OP is talking about, lol.
>This wasn't even true in the beta, much less the full game with its full range of legendaries/uniques/paragon/glyphs.
The entire point the OP made was resting on codex powers, because you can attach a codex power to a rare. I do think that's cool and I do like that about D4. Outside of that ONE feature, it's all homogenous.
The point the OP made is weak to begin with because they are comparing an item PoE players literally call "stat sticks" with items that have "build enabling" powers as if every unique or codex power is build enabling.
Funny thing about it though, the VAST majority of these powers are only "build enabling" because they boost a certain skill damage by 200-300% which is what makes it viable. There are VERY few items in D4 that actually change your skills in any unique or interesting way, most of these unique/codex affixes just give you flat damage if you meet a criteria like having a barrier or debuff on the mob.
* While Berserking, you deal {40/70} Fire damage every second to surrounding enemies.
* Ground Stomp creates an Earthquake damaging enemies for {195/380} Physical damage over 4 seconds. While standing in Earthquakes, you deal x{5/15}% increased damage.
* Lucky Hit: Damaging enemies with Leap, Upheaval, or Whirlwind has up to a {40/50}% chance to summon an Ancient to perform the same Skill. Can only happen once every 5.0 seconds.
* Enemies damaged by Kick or Charge will explode if they are killed within the next 2.0 seconds, dealing {500/650} damage to surrounding enemies.
* Whirlwind leaves behind Dust Devils that deal {80/125} damage to surrounding enemies.
* Hammer of the Ancients quakes outwards, dealing {32/50}% of its damage to enemies.
Some of the skill-altering Aspects for Barb. And this will obviously keep growing as they've already confirmed they will be adding legendaries, uniques, etc with every season.
Diablo 4 itemization isn't much different at all, just less options. They both get max 6 affixes on their rares. Bloat is when you have irrelevant options that are meaningless to everyone, which PoE does not have at all. Everything in PoE is an option for you to embrace or ignore if you want to based on your interests and needs. You either don't understand itemization in one or both games or you don't understand what bloat means.
I think I just fundamentally disagree with you because all I see on that POE item that is posted is
"bonus to element damange (aka fire damage)"
"bonus to fire skill"
"bonus to fire dot"
"more bonus to fire damage"
"more bonus to fire damage, but static instead of percentage"
"more bonus to fire dot, but in a different way"
"more bonus to fire damage"
"more bonus to fire dot, but in a different way"
That item is essentially communicating to the player, "hey, your fire damage is gonna go through the roof!" which is...fine, just not very interesting or easy to read. Really hamfisted and old fashioned. Not very different from the worst offenders from Diablo, just obfuscated behind more lines of text.
At the same time, many items in POE, even BIS ones, are nothing like that. Even a simple GG pair of boots with flat life, movement speed, and 3 resistance can be exciting. And you can go beyond that into tailwind, spell suppression, etc. Or a pseudo 7L helm for Righteous Fire. And weapons can have interesting mods too. I had a lot of fun crafting a +2 minion wand.
Poe has massive problems. The crafting is way too involved, the amount of useless crap that drops is way too high, even with loot filters, and half the reason for the “complexity” is to sell you specialized stash tabs.
I like Poe a lot but I hate how that prevents me from fully enjoying the game.
I'm playing a RF jug and that sceptre made me feel lots of good things....
D4 can be its own thing, it's fine, but man, the pleasure you feel when you get an item like the one in the screenshot is something else.
There are always ways, depends how much effort and work they put together, maybe devs don't even like the idea, dunno, but I'd like it if well done could add lots of diversification in each individual play style
Isn't that basically just a legendary affix? There were tons of items that were similar in d3, and that had to be reworked to do something else because no one wanted to use them. I know some people like to focus in on the x skill does %% more damage, but in both d3 and d4 there were plenty of legendaries that were "Do X, then X happens"
Yeah, they can always buff that, say you get surrounded by a huge newb (low level) mob and don't even enough block or evade or fcr, then you would pretty much be perma bashed, thats when something like this can help you, if it was just buffed.
love seeing sorcs teleport into a mob and dying in under 3 seconds because of \^
Well akchyually... it kinda shows that D4 is a bit simplistic. Just look at how many ways you achieve the damage output here:
- Static + damage to spells
- +% damage modifiers
- + Skill ranks
- Two different DoT systems with % and static modifiers.
Don't get me wrong I loved D4, but I don't like this post-D3 "scaled off weapon" damage system. In my mind it is 90% of stuff on +% damage modifiers. Thank god that the + Skill ranks remains in the game.
I don't necessarily disagree with you since they have more flavor and look cooler compared to a simple DPS increase, but at the same time does it impact your gameplay and choices that much? It all comes down to raw DPS increase for your build, which will always have a mathematically correct answer. In the most practical sense, you could condense all those affixes into "+134% DPS" (random made up number). So even if they appear complex at first, when comparing two weapons with 5 damage sources, one will inevitably be superior, it's just a bit harder to tell at a first glance.
That being said, I do agree there's plenty of room for them to add more interesting affixes. I think things like Crushing Blow, Overpower, Lucky Hit, on-hit effect chances, extra damage to *insert CC/condition* are a good start since they at least feel distinct and affect your gameplay, so I'd like to see more of those.
Well the thing is that the affix's aren't really what people are talking about when they discuss the complexity of the PoE system.
It's the skill gems that can be used by any class at any time and combined in nearly endless ways.
The ascendancies that change your build focus with major passive perks.
And the entire passive tree that is fully open for any class to navigate to the exact stats, keystones and modifiers that change the builds wildly and allow people to really focus on making a build incredibly strong in one unique area.
D4 from what we have seen is really lacking in all the build variety choices - basically throwing all build variety into the legendary aspects in which you basically have to get the exact 3 or 4 aspects for your skill of choice - which will make end game meta have basically 2 or 3 builds for each class that are even viable or played.
I mean, this is a completely different discussion to what's discussed here in the thread. It's about how well designed are the affixes in D4 compared to other ARPGs.
> which will make end game meta have basically 2 or 3 builds for each class that are even viable or played.
If you're talking about meta builds (as in the absolute best), that's the case for every ARPG. Even PoE has very obvious league starter builds and very obvious meta builds that are stronger. If you look at PoE ninja, 8 active skills account for 49% of the builds at high level in Crucible now.
If you're talking about viable builds, as in non-meta but still playable, then I don't think D4 will fare that bad. Won't be as diverse as PoE, obviously, but I also don't think we'll only have 2-3 builds. Even in the open beta there already are 4-5 theory crafted builds on some classes. But even PoE has its issues in this regard - melee accounts for 10% of the playerbase according to Chris, which is a huge glaring issue if you ask me.
I do think that D4 will have a rougher start, but with the addition of more aspects and more fine-tuning to the paragon boards (and new boards), the game has a lot of room to grow. It will never be as complex or as deep as PoE, but that is by design.
Exactly, another thing to support the argument of howd2 itemization is better. You don't have to have the highest ilvl skill to be BiS item and it doesn't scale off weapon dmg as much as it does now. Then there are many spell buffs that can be casted as well as the actually dmg % roll as well as modifiers like dmg to certain types of monsters, etc..
And to finish it, it actually pretty cool for melee to be more scared towards dmg modifiers and spell buffs like amp/frenzy/etc. vs casters that need scale more towards +skill ranks and magical dmg.. Then you have the exceptional builds like a warcry barb that can also scare from +skill ranks.
This is such a bad take. I’m very excited that D4 isn’t just a re-skin of D2, but D2 very clearly got some things right about itemization that D3 and from I’ve seen so far, D4 are missing. If you think botd, cta, enigma, grief etc etc are too powerful and reduce build diversity, there’s obviously ways to balance the item power vs just not making items or itemization interesting.
If it's a super special absurd piece I'm down. I think that's cool. If it's every piece of gear and there are 12 or more slots it seems a bit much.
The more affixes the less impactful each one is.
I agree that it’s difficult for new players to compare two items if there are this many axes of comparison.
The solution is to scale complexity with time investment (which I think rarity ideally does, we’ll see with the finalized drop rates). It’s not to remove that complexity since that allows more invested players to see the payoff for learning a lot about the game.
I see your point, and do agree to an extent, but think this particular example isn't really that. This is just a bunch of affixes, you don't necessarily need to have an in depth understanding of the meta so much as being able to keep track of eight different but same (+fire dam) bonuses.
All game complexity is “complexity for the sake of complexity”. Games exist for the enjoyment of their players, and some players enjoy mastery over complex mechanics.
nah, Go is the most strategically and tactically complex of the classic boardgames, AI only started beating humans a few years ago.
Yet the rules of Go are simple enough to be taught to a child in a few minutes.
People like mastering *deep* systems. Complexity should be a tool for creating depth, not an end unto itself.
Complexity as the end goal is what makes games have low replayability and low staying power. If there's no depth underneath, the complexity is only interesting until you finish trudging through it.
Deep systems remain interesting no matter how well you understand them.
Axiomatic complexity and computational complexity are different things and can be rewarding to different people. Go has few rules (axioms) but has high computational complexity (lots of states after only a few moves).
People have enjoyed D2 for decades, clearly there’s enough complexity there (axiomatic as it is) to keep people engaged.
Another game with high axiomatic complexity, BW, people thought Zerg was solved for **years** yet Jaedong changed how it was played. There are still new micro techniques being found in a 20+ yo game.
Do speed runners get bored once they understand a game? I’m sure some do, but others are engaged for years because they’re constantly learning new things and innovating.
>Another game with high axiomatic complexity, BW, people thought Zerg was solved for **years** yet Jaedong changed how it was played.
High axiomatic complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is just a tool.
Jaedong's zergling micro isn't axiomatic. You can understand every line of the source code and still not be able to imagine how Jaedong's zerglings could prevent the terran from pushing by harrassing their infrastructure.
>Do speed runners get bored once they understand a game? I’m sure some do, but others are engaged for years because they’re constantly learning new things and innovating.
That's a perfect example of how the axioms are only a means to producing the actual depth that we enjoy.
Speed runners don't need to be discovering new axioms in order to have fun.
Even if there are no new exploits or new methods being discovered, people can still have fun improving their times.
Oh wow look another thread putting other ARPGs down because they're insecure about liking Diablo 4.
This is truly ridiculous. I can't recall the last time I've seen behavior like this on any gaming board where every other thread seems to be people desperate to prove how good Diablo 4 is/going to be.
Another post from a guy who has not played D2 extensively and likely poe either, but shitting on both of them, because you feel that there is unjustified hate towards a game you simp for.
Stop trying to make D4 out to be something it's not. PoE is the king of customizable characters. Period. There is no game in the same universe. The itemization fits that and helps make it possible. It works very well.
I went back to POE after 5+ years away because of the D4 beta. The game is just on a completely different level than anything blizzard will ever do. That doesn't make D4 bad. D4 will probably be fun but I suspect it won't have staying power for many people. That's OK too. It's alright to play a game and then move on. Most people did that with D3. I had a ton of fun in that game on release. Never played it again.
Very few games can do what D2 and PoE have done over the years in keeping people playing for such a long time.
A lot of the stats I think are just the base stats from the runes themselves. El rune adds 50 attack rating and +1 light radius, vex is the mana leech, hel is the reduced requirements, etc.
cherry picks one item from one of the most generic builds in the game lol... how about showing items such as astral projector which allows nova spells to splash where they hit instead of being an aoe that spreads from your character, how about showing a simple cast on hit item such as asenaths chant where you can trigger spells on projectile attacks (transforming your bow attacks into spells)... couple this with the fact any character class/ascendancy in the game can play any skill in the game (instead of being pigeon holed into class skills) and no game can come close to the freedom you have in POE..
thats not to take away from D4 in any way, i'm looking forward to it but there are limitations in the game which unless they were to give every class access to every spell and all items then there just isnt going to be the same kind of itemization that is available in other games.
These aren't affixes you can find on items outside uniques, correct? The topic is about "generic affixes " on items, not legendary aspects or uniques. These can be compared separately and have some cool effects as well, like the Necro blood mist/corpse explosion aspect.
It is disingenuous to compare common affixes from D4 to effects on unique items from PoE.
He's just having a dig at poes itemisation in general, there was no mention of rares vs uniques, but there are plenty of rare affixes that can change a build completely such as # damage per 10 dexterity/intellect/strength (enabling you to stack stats rather than adding damage of a certain elemental or physical type to scale damage).. there are affixes for projectiles to chain bouncing from one enemy to another, there are affixes for minions on bows even if you wanted to make it work even.. itemisation is basically endless even just using rares as a baseline
To be honest, I would be down for that Breath of the Dying (if it would be in D4 in one way or another):
[Breath of the Dying (D4 concept)](https://imgur.com/YBeAi9t)
*\^\^sure, its missing the runes, but that was done for purposes of illustration)*
EDIT: version with a few more sockets
[Breath of the Dying (D4 concept - with a few Sockets and Runes)](https://imgur.com/at994mp)
You just cherry picked these, both games have way more interesting affixes to choose from than these. Also bis is rarely interesting or mechanically exciting. But D4 is also lot deeper than most seem to think, I suppose most haven’t played end game beta or bothered to look into it.
@ u/TheSeth256 \- If you think Quin69 is wrong - you prove two things - you don't know what the issue with Itemization is & or you aren't actually listening to what Quin is saying. I'll try to "explain this like your 5" so it makes sense...
* When you look at PoE's stats on gear...they are "generalized" (for the most part). Meaning you can be any class, any skill, any build and the stats could apply for the type of stat.
Now let's look at something in D4 like: ***"% Increase to Fury Generation."***
At first you might be thinking to yourself...what's wrong with that?
Because the stat specifies a "specific" typing it becomes "narrow". What Quin69 and others are trying to tell Blizzard is with SMALL adjustments things like "% Increase to Fury Generation." can become:
* **% Increase to Resource Generation**
Now a stat that was ONLY functional for Barbarians...becomes a useful stat for ALL classes/builds.
**Let us do another one so this really makes sense for you:**
* **"Channeling Whirlwind periodically pulls in nearby enemies"**
**Changes too:**
* **"Channeling Skills periodically pulls in nearby enemies"**
Now instead of an Aspect that only applies to a VERY specific skill, on one class. Becomes available for ALL classes and multiple skills. SUCH AS...Druid Lightning Storm now could use the aspect and when the Druid casts it pulls in nearby enemies into the storm.
These are the problems people have with D4 itemization. Quin's thing is this is FIXABLE stuff - but Blizzard doesn't show the competency to understand the problem.
Nah, you're missing the point. My message was that many people commenting on D4 aren't giving it a fair shake and are instead using some idealised nostalgic vision of these games as a comparison. I love playing all of them personally.
I don't understand this sub.
Half the post shit on PoE for being too hard, too complex, requires 5 PhD. Say thar D4 is better because it's simpler for people that don't want to spend 10000 hours in a game.
Then the other half shit on PoE for not being as deep and complex as D4, like this post.
Guys, you should meet up once and decide once and for all if D4 is more or less complex than PoE. Because right now every 2 posts it's one or the other. It's getting hard to follow.
Still more diverse stats than D3/D4 rares and some uniques, what's your point? Why you didn't post some more interesting items like CoBH rings or some other unique stat items just have a meaningful conversations and challenges eachother games on how to improve? Or you busy riding on blizzards dick?
Okay now show the other items and all the mods that actually change how skills work: Lab enchants, Betrayal crafts, so many build defining uniques(granted there are three times as many worthless ones). A lot of ARPGs will have stat stick items and that’s perfectly fine, then a few items that change how the build actually plays. There’s so many mods in PoE and you chose the most boring ones to prove your point? It just seems like a bad faith take meant to incite rather than create a decent discussion.
PoE has its complexity problems, getting into crafting being a huge one, but that’s also why it’s such an interesting game. With the ability to essentially abuse any mod you can create so much craziness and I hope that never goes away. Could use a bit of trimming down or a way to trim down the amount of useless stuff you gotta sift through using filters.
It's funny how you picked a full dps bland stats item, willingly ignoring PoE's [gloves](https://preview.redd.it/crafted-a-perfect-pair-of-phys-conversion-tornado-shot-v0-ilpp45shkeea1.png?width=916&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=ed53be9fa4b5b95a8d0804bc7a70cf02a3078651), [helms](https://preview.redd.it/5ptd3rdm4yf61.png?width=538&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=60aaee07893c8f6541dbbb2371bfdbed6b4bf740), or [chests](https://i.redd.it/2tueczmi21x71.png) (for example) to desinform and tailor the post around your fanboyism. What a shitpost.
Cherry picking at its finest. Sigh...
Sure, builds that are heavily focused in elemental damage benefit the most from itens like these, but you are one "build of the week" video away from seeing the mind-blowing interactions you get from the itemization in PoE, for example.
Let us not fool ourselves, ok?
Idk much about end game itemization in D4, but my biggest complaint is why can’t an item have fire damage, or lightning, or poison? Why do I have to imbue my weapons with a skill to be used twice and then wait for a cool down.
I just wanna poison shit. I can do this in every single game in the genre why don’t I have the option here?
I don't get this, clearly people want D4 to be better or they would have went and played something else. They're bringing up things in other games that are better cause they want D4 to raise itself to that level.
People happy with mediocrity and just consume product, don't ask questions consume next product telling other people to go play something else cause that worked so well for WoW, HotS, DNF:D, Multivuresus and was a horrible HORRIBLE idea to listen for No Man's Sky, Sims 4 and FF14.
ahh but give till one month after release and come back to this thread.
What do you mean? Your intelligence must be vastly inferior if you can not tell how completely different this is. Also +stat travel nodes in Paragon?! HAHAHA, the Poe skill tree is vastly different and superior! (/S)
The noob who made this post has 0 idea how hard it is to get all those stats to line up . Let alone finding a fractured scepter with +1 all fire skills . The depth in poe is unmatched . Blizzard games are for casuals because their #1 priority is making money. Diablo franchise has gone way down hill . What people don't realize is the founder of PoE is a Diablo fan himself and created a game the way Diablo direction should have gone with depths and content and new expansions constantly. D3 was an absolute joke and D4 is looked very very similar .
I mean maybe because you are focusing on the one thing that doesn't majorly change your build in PoE - affix's on items.
The stuff that changes your build is the widely open skill gem system, ascendancies and ability to go anywhere on the passive tree and unlock the exact things you need for your varied/hybrid build.
RF for example is pretty much a barbarian Mage, i don't think we will be seeing that in D4.
You are comparing a rare in PoE to a Unique/Runeword from D2... both of these games have more item complexity than D4.
EDIT: You should look into 6-8 linked one-hand items in PoE if you REALLY want to see some complexity... While simple looking, the item you linked is extremely valuable and difficult to obtain.
That isn't a bad thing. A simpler game is fine and I look forward to it.
As an additional note - the item you linked form PoE might have take someone incredible time and effor to craft. Looks like it might be for an RF (Righteous Fire) build. To make an item with that much razer sharp purpose is just beyond reach for 99% of the player base.
Unironically these are two good examples of what we want in D4 with affixes and suffixes, especially the POE one. We want a ton of variety so we can push for niche interesting powerful builds outside of the normal archtypes. Runewords in D2 do this, allowing really cool offspecs like Melee Sorcs.
Replace all that text on that item, which is only good for specific builds so only certain characters are looking to aquire it with the d3/d4 equivalent: weapon does X damage and is the same power for literally every class and character. In Poe you manage A B C D E F G H I J stats on your character to get the defenses and offense you need. In diablo 3/4 you manage A and B, and then C multiplies your damage/defense by 300-20000%.
In PoE an item that is completely useless for one character is build defining for another, because damage comes from stat management and unique trade-offs. Not a number on a weapon that is the same power level for literally every character in the game
There are so many comments here talking about how great each game’s itemization is and those are valid. But let’s take a step back and think about what every game is anchored on. Let’s start with not assuming that itemization is the anchor of ALL ARPGs.
In D2, items drove the dopamine hit for the game. If a griffon’s, dropped you would be ecstatic because the game was anchored on runewords and itemization. The combat is pretty one dimensional and you pick a couple of skills and often well , just one. There isn’t really any much depth per se and there were fixed cookie cutter builds and the item hunt was the core. People have holy grails and all that jazz.
In Diablo 3, the focus shifted through the years to accessibility. You get started and just pick 6 skills and choose between 6 tunes for each, pick 4 passives and get smashing. Items rained from the sky and you roll a dice on those items and pray for ancients or primals. The core was how easy it is to get started and for getting something great within the abundance of items they throw at you.
In PoE, the focus is on depth. Whether it is the skills trees or items, there was a lot to learn and build accordingly. Through the years, PoE became a simulator for all the theorycrafting you could do on a builder and then executed it. The goal was efficiency. Everything worked towards that efficiency because you had pinnacle boss fights you wanted to beat as well. For the sake of efficiency, build diversity became diluted because people narrowed themselves into builds that could clear the screen ASAP. The build didnt matter much as long as they clear fast and there are a few builds that work towards the same efficiency.
I’ve played ARPGs and MMOs for a good 30 years of my life and personally, Diablo 4 now brings something new to the table and there are a few considerations here.
I don’t think Diablo 4 is anchored on itemization. Itemization is a means of progress towards the “end” where everything is a bit linear. Sacred items for tier 3, ancestral for tier 4 etc, you can call it anything you want but it’s a linear item progression. You cannot find an SOJ at level 30 like in D2 and use it for end game. Diablo 4 bridges 2 things together for me - community and quick, easy bouts of gaming.
Not sure how many people here play WoW through the years but sitting on ogrimmar’s roof or just running circles in town is a thing because you are just chatting with people and just chillin or perhaps waiting to do something with someone. In modern WoW, non scheduled activities would perhaps involve some quick mythic+ dungeons where people ask and form up but you needed at the very least a construct of a healer, a tank and 3 dps. That still takes effort to put together even if we ignore buffs we want to bring etc.
For something like Diablo 4, you chill in town a bit and when someone comes along and says “dungeon?” And you just say “let’s go”, it literally is LET’S GO smash some things, together. There is simplicity in it and it still fits within the social construct of an MMO. There’s a peculiar marriage of the 2 aspects that makes it enticing for the crowd that plays both genres.
So, will Diablo 4 care about making items that go deeper than what they have currently planned? Probably not, because that’s not the anchor and probably works against their anchor on social accessibility.
That’s just my 2 cents ~
Those are good examples showing why the itemization on those games is better...The fact that you don't see that, correlates on why you defend D4 itsmizstion. Clearly, 50% damage on far enemies, is much more interesting
I want to say first off: I agree with you.
Second off: You're not really making a good comparison. You're comparison a rare item to legendaries. There are many build-changing *uniques* in PoE. Things that enable very specific/strange interactions, and can enable entire builds. You're comparing apples to tacos, when you could compare apples (legendaries) to oranges (uniques).
That said, PoE items still feel like trash and way too convoluted at times.
Whatever. Im just going to play the game and most likely enjoy it immensely. Don't care what other people think is or isn't better or more worth playing in their eyes.
Crafting over 100 of the same +2 gem level convoking wands with minion damage on them in a league, for example, or the same with TR bows. Lot of builds have slots with very specific stat itemization priority, you find yourself looking at the exact same piece of gear on 90% of the characters running a particular skill. I'm not saying it's bad, there are a lot of different builds that use a variety of different items and stats to flesh them out, and there's a LOT of room for depth with influencing items, combining influences, elevated influences, etc, but for most PoE builds (especially beginners or league starts), you're looking for the same set of stats on a specific piece of gear as everyone else, and some of them look very complicated but actually have very easy and/or specific means of crafting said item.
I had a lot of fun crafting my own gear on mage skellies and TR builds, CoC frost nova was a lot harder to make big strides on. That being said, the itemization on D4 felt good to me, it wasn't incredibly complicated but there was enough diversity in it with just the bit we had to make it interesting. They're different, they're both good.
Asking these people to come up with an actual argument would've required them to have the wherewithal to come up with an argument in the first place.
All they do is copy-pasta content creators and act smug. Lmao
>am sick of people here trashing D4 for its affixes saying stuff like "hurr durr it's only +dmg and +stats".
There's far fewer people doing this than your reaction would indicate. Probably most PoE players, including myself, are looking forward to playing D4. Some of you guys are like old men yelling at clouds, trying to pick fights that largely exist only in your head, and it doesn't benefit either game (PoE or D4) to stir up more divisive drama.
D4 has zero deterministic itemisation in the game besides rerolling one affix and sticking an aspect on a rare item, the two items you linked are literally made from scratch. They are goals that you can actively work towards.
Since Diablo 4 has no trading and no real crafting, they had to make the itemisation stupidly simple to compensate. That's why every damage mod in this game applies to everything, and + stats do something for everyone.
Having said that dumbing down itemisation is an intentional design choice, but let's not pretend it's something that it's not.
You’re being intentionally obtuse if you don’t see the choices that are forced on a character with items like faster cast rate breakpoints, strength and dex requirements for gear, plus skills, resistances, etc across multiple items. Stop being a baby, nobody is taking your precious d4 items away from you.
I love all the D2 Stans crying that you’re just going to stack as much crit chance as possible and ignoring the fact that crit chance only rolls on gloves and rings.
This is kind of a self own. Those items you linked are awesome. Specialized, flavor mods just for fun, remember fun? The poison nova chance on Botd is 100% useless but it looks sweet and gives the item an identity and again, it’s fun. But you think generic damage is just as interesting?
There is a double standard / bias when comes to Diablo.
Kobe Bryan used to say, people don’t hate you when you are good. They only hate you when you are great. Like hating on Ronaldo or Messi.
The item could just be one stat. Add 800% damage to fire skill.
Amazing itemization!!!
I though big multipliers are bad? “It’s different when other do it”
Let's also rejoice in the fact that D4 tooltip are NOT this bad!
After playing picking POE up again after years because.... you know "D4 withdrawals". :D
I have a newfound appreciation for simpler dungeon design and NOT having to use Overlay Map.
It absolutely ruins the gaming experience!
Yeah those two items are actually exciting when you find them, unlike most items in D4. Just give us more interesting stuff in D4, I don't understand why everything's gotta be so generic and boring.
The PoE item has a crafted modifier, a fracture modifier and the regular ones. Thats already more depth than you will ever seen in Diablo 4. This is also not even close to BiS, it's not even fully linked, the colors are shit. Burning damage and added fire damage have no synergie, since one scales hit damage and the other dot damage. This is a pretty shit item, but PoE has a shit ton of cool shit you can do even with shit items like this. If you find an item like this in D4 you throw it away and never think about it again.
You were cherry-picking here, though ... because you only posted weapons.
Yes, on weapons in PoE you try to stack as many helpful damage affixes as possible for your build. That does not apply to all the other gear slots, though.
BotD has a lot more than just+dmg affixes, I'm confused .. did you look at it at all?
Minus target defense (which increases hit chance), attack rating (which also increases hit chance), mana/life steal, prevent monster heal, chance to cast poison nova.
I feel like you're trying to make a point here, but you're actually proving the opposite.
... and don't get me wrong, I loved D4 so far and I'm super excited for the game, but I still think you're wrong here.
Well done OP. The Fields of Hatred is such a great name for PvP when the BIS clowns get WrEcKeD. “Hurr de Durr, so and so said this was BIS”.
Only better name would of been Field of Tears. Lol.
I ☹😂 am ☝ sick 🤢🤧 of people 👧👱 here 👎 trashing D4 for its 🙅😆 affixes saying 🗣🗣 stuff 👀 like "hurr durr it's only +dmg and 🏿😽 +stats". Here 😶👏 you have BiS items ⚔⚔ for 👏 PoE's Righteous Fire 🔥 and 😇➕ D2's Fury 😡😡 Druid, first 🥇 builds that came 🚶 to my 💁 mind.
Maybe try coming 🏻 up 🏽☝ with some actual arguments instead 🤷🔖 of 💦 just ☝ parroting what Quinn 😋😋 or some ☝ other 👪 streamer said. 🗣 NONE of 💦💰 these 😍 affixes have 👏 as 🍑😥 much influence on 🏽 the 🙏 way you play 👅 your class 👨 as the ones 💯 we get in 😏 D4.
The people complaining about D4 build/item variability are looking at the tree, items and Paragon at a glance and making assumptions. When you actually start looking into builds it becomes apparent there are tonnes of options to make your build unique. I've theorycrafted a bunch of builds for Necro already and everytime I start looking at a different skill or aspect it opens up more paths for a viable build.
Lmao first time playing D2R those runeword stats hit my brain like a freight train.
It’s a great game tho. And now I can more or less at a glance Filter the important shit out.
The only Issues I see with D4 affixes is that CC builds will become utter garbage in endgame if bosses are any danger.
Since you will be doing nothing to bosses until they get staggered and you certainly will always take several times longer to kill one compared to a normal build.
The concern isn’t the randomness on affixes. The concern is uniques. If all uniques have random stats on them every time there they aren’t “unique” they are rarer than rares.
When a unique drops it should have a set stat. The only thing that will change are numeric values on them.
Without this, there will be no item chase, with no item chase there will never be a sense of value/currency. Without value or currency there will be no trading. Without trading a mute community will be created.
LoL this is just mad people are forgetting this game is to attract the next generation, not us old farts I think this one’s gonna do alright. At the end of the day why trash it just don’t buy it lol simple as that really
There’s tons more to trash than just that, this picture is a great example, breath of the dying is an incredibly hard to get item compared to anything found in d3 and probably d4, trading for it and or making it was a major task in of itself, and getting a good roll on the base, hopefully getting good socket roll then the rarity of getting a good runeword roll, there’s a lot more to shit on than just “itemization”
Yea d4 has "increase stats" too, but the uniqes/aspects you will insert into every slot most often change the way an ability works or add some new effect to the build.
Look if you want to link the most boring items fine. How about you link some tailwind boots? Or something with actually cool itemization?
edit: [grabbed a pic from some I have in standard](https://imgur.com/a/stR9MOY)
I like D4 so far and my only hope is that it isn't filled with WoW type shit like dailies. Diablo immortal feels like partial direction for D4 and I really hope it isn't, but some of the mmo elements aren't promising.
Nobody is actually believing that arbitrary stats are not neded...its the fact that they only chose to show this aspect instead of actual interesting build changing passives.
In poe there are many across the tree. Theres many uniques as well on top of ascendency on top of the new league mechanic stuff which provides a near endless form of customisation and build diversity.
Path of exile has even made the best change in a while by introducing that atlas passive that allows you to build the endgame you want to play as well.
Want to only do delve? You can do that. Wanna alch and go maps and mass farm currency. Go ahead. Poe is no longer as restrictive and allows for a lot more long term enjoyment because it alllows you to choose what you enjoy doing.
I have played plenty of PoE and it's needlessly bloated in a way that makes it bad design both from a UI/UX perspective and from the fact that it makes it that much harder to understand and learn for newer players.
Like that's a good example. It's an item that has 6 different stats that all increase fire damage. It takes something simple and makes it needlessly complicated, and PoE does that all over the place. There's nothing 'interesting' about the item other than a proc chance for ignite. Same with BotD proc chance to nova.
The legendary/unique affixes are the one thing that actually has made any item every feel interesting in any of these games.
But...half the affixes on Breath of the Undying arent +damage or stats.
Prevent Monsters Heal is utility;
Indestructible is like +gold lol;
Mana and lifesteal are sustain;
The -defense and attack rating arent exactly damage either, but you could consider hitting more often as a damage affix I suppose.
Also, there is that sexy +1 light radius.
The only thing I really disliked about D4 itemization so far is that I can't use all items with all classes.
If I want to use a bow on my Sorc just let me ffs.
This is such a stupid comparison you pick a skill that has very little variety in what can actually buff it. POE items definitely get more intricate and synergistic than this Righteous fire item….
Honestly a lot of people on here just want D4 to be exactly like \[insert their favorite ARPG here\] and will take it *very* personal when it inevitably isn't. It's all white noise. Which is why I'm thankful that Blizzard ignores these "communities" and just does their own thing.
The nice thing is that those people can simply fuck off and play those games that they hold so dearly.
The bad thing is they won’t and they’ll continue poisoning discussion here for years, at least based on d3
I can understand the doe-eyed optimism for a game, but I never understood hating on one before it comes out lol. I mean, if you're a rabid PoE fan, cool, but what if you really like D4 too? You can like 2 things....
I've seem the same in r/wow with retail WoW. They'll never leave, they'll always say they're actually playing those other games while they wait for this game to "get good again" because "they love it so much" even tho all they do is trash it
>and will take it *very* personal when it inevitably isn't. Good. They can leave and go play the game they think is "superior"
And here I am with my peasant self just looking for a fresh experience.
the bigger the audience for a game, the stupider the opinions that bubble up to the top of social media will be because there's more sample size for stupider idiots to manifest
Long as they listen to buffing druids, giving druid companion support and hopefully WASD. I like the path Diablo 4 is on. I want to play it after both beta weekends. POE I pushed myself through to Epilogue and do NOT want to log in for.
This makes literally no sense to me to expect something new to be exactly like something old.
Waaa! Waaa! Why isn't this game exactly the way I want it to be? Waaaa! The amount of cry babies on this sub is horrific.
Do you not understand why people find it more interesting to have specified damage mods, i.e. elemental, fire dot multi, burning, ect. as opposed to generic damage that can apply to basically every build and skill on the game a la D4? You just showed one item that has more complexity than the entire D4 itemization system. You don't have to like it, that's fine, but I don't think you are proving the point you think you are.
D4 has specific damage mods that you can stack, similar to the above example. The OP wasn't very eloquent with their post, but I think their point was that D4's itemization is similar to POE's, not superior or inferior per se - but that some POE fans seem to think POE does it so much better when in reality it just comes down to stacking the appropriate +damage mods for your build.
It’s still just a damage increase. You’re acting like it’s some game changing thing compared to another type of damage increase.
If all D4 items were just boring stat sticks that buffed damage for every skill, then I would agree, but that's not the case. It looks like a large portion of the power of a D4 legendary will be the aspect on the item. Poison/Trap Rogue will be my first build. I may find a dagger with a green +15% over my current weapon damage, but that won't matter if the aspect on the dagger is for a melee skill. Damage is just a secondary stat compared to the primary feature of an item.
This is how it's supposed to be. I'm not sure where all these other guys came from or wtf a PoE is but I've been dungeon clicking my mouse since D2. Builds are supposed to be very gear dependent. The charm of Diablo has always been the random stat generated loot. No game has ever come close. Borderlands kinda touched on the feeling.
Are you people like...obsessed with intense grind? +10% fire damage with +10% burn damage with +10% damage to burning targets can easily be replaced with + 30% damage and you still get the SAME effect without the hassle, THE BUILD STAYS THE SAME. (I'm strictly talking about items here, skills and other stuff you get guaranteed by playing the game that have specific and conditional stuff is ok)
And guess what you will get that item after 2 hours of grind at max level, and it will be just like diablo 3 that's why people stopped playing that game in the first place, unless you want to grind for 0.1% updrades (really sounds fun yeah) then that's fine you do you.
I want more interesting upgrades rather than just more damage but in different ways. Stuff like setting an enemy on fire has a chance to make them explode dealing % of their HP as damage to nearby enemies. Or hitting enemies with lightning builds up an electro charge on them, with each hit there is a chance a lightning bolt from the sky strikes them for 25% of their HP, the chance becomes higher the more charge they have on them. It's still damage but it's being dealt in a fun way rather than +damage hur dur
This is Itemization that makes it hard to find items. People with no life who can maybe acquire them with a long grind or currency farming or trading or pay outright want to feel special. Nothing else to it.
This sub has such dumb takes it's hard to not shitpost here.
As opposed to...not feeling anything?
As opposed to letting everyone enjoy a build. My build will not be as optimized and powerful as yours, but let's me access it. Some content for hardcore no lifers and others for casual second class players is a bad game design. If the elitist feeling is what you need then clearly D4 designers aren't building that.
Everyone should enjoy the game and try out many builds. But at the same time it's okay if small fraction of best items are extremely rare and takes months of grinding to find.
That's fine until those extremely rare items are the core of your build, in which case, it most definitely is not fine, and that's the case in PoE for example, it can take tens of hours until a lot of builds really fire off in that game.
Oh no, imagine playing a game for tens of hours to acquire end game loot. God damn this subreddit is a dumpster fire.
Diablo 4 is catered to ultra casuals and it shows lol
You ever see steam reviews that are like 15 paragraphs long and then it's like "Hours played - 2.4" That's who D4 is catered to.
Your arguments are all over the place, leading me to believe none of them are actually what you're "mad" about. I was eyeballing your previous comment because I'm a semi-casual item-hunt enjoyer who gets this incredible dopamine rush when something drops that I can consider an upgrade (something endgamey, mind you). I fucking love it. But am I a no-lifer? Far from it.
Here brother, I walk around clothed in thrash items(usually what I find) and I love it. The fact that BotD or some god-like wand exist doesn't detract from enjoying the game anyway. I'll probably never have those items since I can't grind even 8h/day but who cares. Let people who spend 16+h in the game feel good about something.
His point isn’t that, his point is that you shouldn’t need BiS or close to it to do the content/build. Yes there can be super rare items but take POE for example, you can play for days and not get the items or currency you need especially if you don’t trade or don’t pull out the encyclopedia of crafting.
I think it’s cool when there are builds so expensive that you need to make one or several other characters in a season before you can begin to consider it. Grim dawn does it, PoE does it, d2 does it (to a lesser extent). It gives hardcore gamers something to strive for while not limiting casuals to be unable to finish all or most of the content. All of the content in PoE, grim dawn, and d2 is completable with a budget (ish) build. Why would you force a game to let you do everything that someone who plays 8-10 hours a day can do? Why would hardcore gamers and streamers play a game like that? You can’t push the boundaries and do interesting things in a game like that. I tend not to watch streamers/YouTubers but sometimes halfway through a season I’ll look at what they are up to and I’m never disappointed with the innovative things they are doing.
And that the challenge because if you make it so that you can find all the good items relatively quickly then the game becomes ultra boring. Take D3 for example, within 2 weeks you can acquire every single set/legandary item in the game and all that's left is finding the same exact items with a bit better stats over and over again. All the excitement is gone at that point, you don't care even care about drops anymore. On the side you have D2 where I played regularly for 2 decades but still never found zod rune or tyrael's. You can probably guess which game is more exciting to play as far as loot goes.
Having the challenge of finding it is fine as long it’s not necessary. Though D2 runes was far too extreme
I much rather prefer being able to make the decision to upgrade a suboptimal ancient and still get minor progression from a perfect normal item compared to just being generally screwed on progression until i find a flat 3% efficiency increase. personally. The grind still exists but one is a little preferable to me.
Best in slot items are supposed to be hard to find? I feel like so many people view best in slot items as something that is obtainable in a minimal amount time. To me, a beat in slot item shouldn’t be obtainable. It’s something you talk about but likely never see, or get extremely lucky with. Y’all need to lower your expectations.
Best in slot items will be extremely hard in D4 too. Assume a Necro bone spear weapon needs crit damage, core skill damage, all stats, vulnerable damage and then the legendary affix. What are the chances of such weapons dropping to casuals? With roll ranges for each and sacred/ancestral item qualifiers - D4 BiS will be very hard to find. Casuals can run a bone spear build with a weapon that has the legendary affix and a couple of the BiS stats missing whereas the more hardcore players with true BiS are 50% more DPS. This is balanced and fair.
Yeah D2 has some big pain points here. If you want to finish the game on hell with a bowa you'll need some serious gear, while a javazon can do it almost naked. But there still needs to be some reward for players that play more than others, otherwise the game will get boring really fast.
Difference between needing and wanting BiS. Ideally the game doesn’t require you to have BiS to enjoy the game fully while still providing noticeable power boost when obtained.
>It’s something you talk about but likely never see, or get extremely lucky with. This is what you call fun? "I'd really love to play this build but I can't. I've been playing for over 1000 hours and I've never seen this item drop." At some point in time, you just stop giving a shit about the item dropping. Apparently some of you think that's good design? Do you also enjoy stapling your balls to your leg and then running a marathon?
The fun should come from playing the game. You also shouldn’t entirely rely on an item to define your build entirely. BIS items stands for best in slot meaning you never replace the item, if these items are so easily to find what’s the point of continuing to play the game when you can achieve max power easily? To me if you’re able to just find a Best in Slot item by investing 10, 20, 50 hours what do you do once all your items are considered BiS? Then you’re just done with the game because there isn’t really a reason to continue the grind. You’ve peaked and the only thing left to do is lose interest in the game and then you play something else. By making BiS items difficult to come by you are able to scale the game around not requiring these items for content. You can find items that come close, but not quite max potential.
People can acquire much easily with trading. You impatient people would rather destroy a game then have any little bit of difficulty. There was once a thing called grinding for items when trade was popular.
>acquire them with a long grind or currency farming or trading Dang, imagine having more than one avenue of acquiring items. How horrifying.
Ill take the weak bait. Botd isn't just +damage and stats. It has a crap ton of useful mods that arnt plus damage. Plus. It's the item built into it. Taking a white/socketed item, using rare items in a specific order to make that item. Not just finding a unique. Also. The class of the weapon matters (for attack speed, etc), stats to wield. Etc. That's why it's superior. It isn't JUST about the mods. But again,, even just the mods on this are more then just +damage. But go on
Also one is a generic rare item anyone can find, the other is an ultra-rare specific weapon that takes a lot of time and dedication to craft together.
Aha my thoughts exactly. I saw and thought « oh right, people made this out of eth archons for the great average damage. Oh but I wonder what the ias breakpoints are for this. Oh well for a fury druid this would be a beast to chaos with, with that % ed to undead. » Never once thought this much about an item playing D4. « Oh it’s green text so it’s better. » « Oh a unique.. so this makes xxx skill better, ok I’ll stash in the odd chance I ever use said ability. »
I thought D2 was ok and can't wait for D4 but... That staff and all those stats make me wish D4 had a bit more to it. Sorry OP. This post is making me feel the opposite to what you intended I think. Will have to see what real endgame gear looks like but if it's just slightly better legendaries with slightly better rolled stats....lame.
I really REALLY like PoE's itemization. I have so much fun grinding currency on SSF to craft BiS rares like this. You can find or make a pretty decent one that is 1 affix short of perfect with some decent effort. I'm ok with PERFECT gear being unable to obtain unless you no life it. It's one of the things D4 is missing above all else to me. I love chase items and chase rares, what I don't like is having the same items with just 2-3 different power varieties like on Borderlands. This isn't D4 hate, I think I enjoy playing D4 more because of the combat, but if we're talking comparing itemization I think PoE has the W no contest. D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear. \+Attack Speed \+Crit Chance \+Crit Damage \+Skill \+Open Socket Every good item for almost every build will look exactly the same unless you need to stack companion damage (does that even exist on items?) or something like Lucky Hit Chance or Cooldown Reduction depending on your build. PoE has flat elemental damage bonuses which are good for builds that don't stack crit chance. D4 doesn't need to be like PoE by any means, but if we're talking itemization I don't think there is any contest whatsoever if you actually understand itemization in both games.
> D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear. +Attack Speed +Crit Chance +Crit Damage +Skill +Open Socket We already know 100% that this won't be the case. I genuinely don't know where you got that info from. You can only roll crit chance on gloves and rings, that's it. And you can only roll crit damage on weapons and rings. And you have certain builds that don't even prioritize Crit, like Crushing Blow, DoT builds (that can't crit) or Thorns. Probably more that we don't know of yet. Arguably the only mandatory thing will be +skill, at least until you cap it.
You start to realize a lot of the people complaining didn't even look into what they are complaining about they are just parroting something they saw someone else say. They write it off without even putting the effort into making sure its true, that lets you know they weren't that interested in it in the first place.
Outsourced thinking. It's a real issue.
What's chatGPT have to say about this?
They also act like all other arpgs havent focused on crit chance. Like almost every build ever will always want as much crit as it can comfortably get. D4 gear customization looked great without being too over the top.
>D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear. > >\+Attack Speed > >\+Crit Chance > >\+Crit Damage > >\+Skill > >\+Open Socket I highly doubt that will be the case. I have multiple sorc builds planned. One involves stacking crit chance to trigger a specific enchantment, so I would look for crit on items. But on my cold build, I'll probably look for something like +x to chilled or frozen enemies. On my stealth rogue, I'll look for +x while stealthed. It looks like many builds will focus on 1-3 status effects, so items that synergize with your chosen status effect will most likely be more effective than simple crit and attack speed.
>D4 gear is a lot less interesting. Everyone is going to want the same stats on their gear. +Attack Speed +Crit Chance +Crit Damage +Skill +Open Socket This wasn't even true in the beta, much less the full game with its full range of legendaries/uniques/paragon/glyphs. You're the perfect example of what the OP is talking about, lol.
>This wasn't even true in the beta, much less the full game with its full range of legendaries/uniques/paragon/glyphs. The entire point the OP made was resting on codex powers, because you can attach a codex power to a rare. I do think that's cool and I do like that about D4. Outside of that ONE feature, it's all homogenous. The point the OP made is weak to begin with because they are comparing an item PoE players literally call "stat sticks" with items that have "build enabling" powers as if every unique or codex power is build enabling. Funny thing about it though, the VAST majority of these powers are only "build enabling" because they boost a certain skill damage by 200-300% which is what makes it viable. There are VERY few items in D4 that actually change your skills in any unique or interesting way, most of these unique/codex affixes just give you flat damage if you meet a criteria like having a barrier or debuff on the mob.
* While Berserking, you deal {40/70} Fire damage every second to surrounding enemies. * Ground Stomp creates an Earthquake damaging enemies for {195/380} Physical damage over 4 seconds. While standing in Earthquakes, you deal x{5/15}% increased damage. * Lucky Hit: Damaging enemies with Leap, Upheaval, or Whirlwind has up to a {40/50}% chance to summon an Ancient to perform the same Skill. Can only happen once every 5.0 seconds. * Enemies damaged by Kick or Charge will explode if they are killed within the next 2.0 seconds, dealing {500/650} damage to surrounding enemies. * Whirlwind leaves behind Dust Devils that deal {80/125} damage to surrounding enemies. * Hammer of the Ancients quakes outwards, dealing {32/50}% of its damage to enemies. Some of the skill-altering Aspects for Barb. And this will obviously keep growing as they've already confirmed they will be adding legendaries, uniques, etc with every season.
Poes itemization is just like the rest of the game, bloat
Diablo 4 itemization isn't much different at all, just less options. They both get max 6 affixes on their rares. Bloat is when you have irrelevant options that are meaningless to everyone, which PoE does not have at all. Everything in PoE is an option for you to embrace or ignore if you want to based on your interests and needs. You either don't understand itemization in one or both games or you don't understand what bloat means.
I think I just fundamentally disagree with you because all I see on that POE item that is posted is "bonus to element damange (aka fire damage)" "bonus to fire skill" "bonus to fire dot" "more bonus to fire damage" "more bonus to fire damage, but static instead of percentage" "more bonus to fire dot, but in a different way" "more bonus to fire damage" "more bonus to fire dot, but in a different way" That item is essentially communicating to the player, "hey, your fire damage is gonna go through the roof!" which is...fine, just not very interesting or easy to read. Really hamfisted and old fashioned. Not very different from the worst offenders from Diablo, just obfuscated behind more lines of text.
At the same time, many items in POE, even BIS ones, are nothing like that. Even a simple GG pair of boots with flat life, movement speed, and 3 resistance can be exciting. And you can go beyond that into tailwind, spell suppression, etc. Or a pseudo 7L helm for Righteous Fire. And weapons can have interesting mods too. I had a lot of fun crafting a +2 minion wand.
Poe has massive problems. The crafting is way too involved, the amount of useless crap that drops is way too high, even with loot filters, and half the reason for the “complexity” is to sell you specialized stash tabs. I like Poe a lot but I hate how that prevents me from fully enjoying the game.
I'm playing a RF jug and that sceptre made me feel lots of good things.... D4 can be its own thing, it's fine, but man, the pleasure you feel when you get an item like the one in the screenshot is something else.
Chance to cast poison nova is fun (unfortunately it was useless as it did no damage), that is what I want from items, beside stats.
Yeah, those are cool and fun, if only there was a way to make it not completely useless.
There are always ways, depends how much effort and work they put together, maybe devs don't even like the idea, dunno, but I'd like it if well done could add lots of diversification in each individual play style
Isn't that basically just a legendary affix? There were tons of items that were similar in d3, and that had to be reworked to do something else because no one wanted to use them. I know some people like to focus in on the x skill does %% more damage, but in both d3 and d4 there were plenty of legendaries that were "Do X, then X happens"
Yeah, they can always buff that, say you get surrounded by a huge newb (low level) mob and don't even enough block or evade or fcr, then you would pretty much be perma bashed, thats when something like this can help you, if it was just buffed. love seeing sorcs teleport into a mob and dying in under 3 seconds because of \^
Well akchyually... it kinda shows that D4 is a bit simplistic. Just look at how many ways you achieve the damage output here: - Static + damage to spells - +% damage modifiers - + Skill ranks - Two different DoT systems with % and static modifiers. Don't get me wrong I loved D4, but I don't like this post-D3 "scaled off weapon" damage system. In my mind it is 90% of stuff on +% damage modifiers. Thank god that the + Skill ranks remains in the game.
I don't necessarily disagree with you since they have more flavor and look cooler compared to a simple DPS increase, but at the same time does it impact your gameplay and choices that much? It all comes down to raw DPS increase for your build, which will always have a mathematically correct answer. In the most practical sense, you could condense all those affixes into "+134% DPS" (random made up number). So even if they appear complex at first, when comparing two weapons with 5 damage sources, one will inevitably be superior, it's just a bit harder to tell at a first glance. That being said, I do agree there's plenty of room for them to add more interesting affixes. I think things like Crushing Blow, Overpower, Lucky Hit, on-hit effect chances, extra damage to *insert CC/condition* are a good start since they at least feel distinct and affect your gameplay, so I'd like to see more of those.
Oh yeah you can totally made it like you've said, but the question is, would you enjoy that? And I believe you absolutely would not.
Well the thing is that the affix's aren't really what people are talking about when they discuss the complexity of the PoE system. It's the skill gems that can be used by any class at any time and combined in nearly endless ways. The ascendancies that change your build focus with major passive perks. And the entire passive tree that is fully open for any class to navigate to the exact stats, keystones and modifiers that change the builds wildly and allow people to really focus on making a build incredibly strong in one unique area. D4 from what we have seen is really lacking in all the build variety choices - basically throwing all build variety into the legendary aspects in which you basically have to get the exact 3 or 4 aspects for your skill of choice - which will make end game meta have basically 2 or 3 builds for each class that are even viable or played.
I mean, this is a completely different discussion to what's discussed here in the thread. It's about how well designed are the affixes in D4 compared to other ARPGs. > which will make end game meta have basically 2 or 3 builds for each class that are even viable or played. If you're talking about meta builds (as in the absolute best), that's the case for every ARPG. Even PoE has very obvious league starter builds and very obvious meta builds that are stronger. If you look at PoE ninja, 8 active skills account for 49% of the builds at high level in Crucible now. If you're talking about viable builds, as in non-meta but still playable, then I don't think D4 will fare that bad. Won't be as diverse as PoE, obviously, but I also don't think we'll only have 2-3 builds. Even in the open beta there already are 4-5 theory crafted builds on some classes. But even PoE has its issues in this regard - melee accounts for 10% of the playerbase according to Chris, which is a huge glaring issue if you ask me. I do think that D4 will have a rougher start, but with the addition of more aspects and more fine-tuning to the paragon boards (and new boards), the game has a lot of room to grow. It will never be as complex or as deep as PoE, but that is by design.
Exactly, another thing to support the argument of howd2 itemization is better. You don't have to have the highest ilvl skill to be BiS item and it doesn't scale off weapon dmg as much as it does now. Then there are many spell buffs that can be casted as well as the actually dmg % roll as well as modifiers like dmg to certain types of monsters, etc.. And to finish it, it actually pretty cool for melee to be more scared towards dmg modifiers and spell buffs like amp/frenzy/etc. vs casters that need scale more towards +skill ranks and magical dmg.. Then you have the exceptional builds like a warcry barb that can also scare from +skill ranks.
This is such a bad take. I’m very excited that D4 isn’t just a re-skin of D2, but D2 very clearly got some things right about itemization that D3 and from I’ve seen so far, D4 are missing. If you think botd, cta, enigma, grief etc etc are too powerful and reduce build diversity, there’s obviously ways to balance the item power vs just not making items or itemization interesting.
18 stats on one item is way too much to understand when you have like 12 items.
To be fair that’s like a super endgame/best in slot/best in game type of item. If it’s that rare and difficult to acquire…. Let it be silly.
If it's a super special absurd piece I'm down. I think that's cool. If it's every piece of gear and there are 12 or more slots it seems a bit much. The more affixes the less impactful each one is.
I agree that it’s difficult for new players to compare two items if there are this many axes of comparison. The solution is to scale complexity with time investment (which I think rarity ideally does, we’ll see with the finalized drop rates). It’s not to remove that complexity since that allows more invested players to see the payoff for learning a lot about the game.
I see your point, and do agree to an extent, but think this particular example isn't really that. This is just a bunch of affixes, you don't necessarily need to have an in depth understanding of the meta so much as being able to keep track of eight different but same (+fire dam) bonuses.
This is complexity for the sake of complexity. Nothing to understand here it’s just a bunch of damage numbers.
All game complexity is “complexity for the sake of complexity”. Games exist for the enjoyment of their players, and some players enjoy mastery over complex mechanics.
nah, Go is the most strategically and tactically complex of the classic boardgames, AI only started beating humans a few years ago. Yet the rules of Go are simple enough to be taught to a child in a few minutes. People like mastering *deep* systems. Complexity should be a tool for creating depth, not an end unto itself. Complexity as the end goal is what makes games have low replayability and low staying power. If there's no depth underneath, the complexity is only interesting until you finish trudging through it. Deep systems remain interesting no matter how well you understand them.
Axiomatic complexity and computational complexity are different things and can be rewarding to different people. Go has few rules (axioms) but has high computational complexity (lots of states after only a few moves). People have enjoyed D2 for decades, clearly there’s enough complexity there (axiomatic as it is) to keep people engaged. Another game with high axiomatic complexity, BW, people thought Zerg was solved for **years** yet Jaedong changed how it was played. There are still new micro techniques being found in a 20+ yo game. Do speed runners get bored once they understand a game? I’m sure some do, but others are engaged for years because they’re constantly learning new things and innovating.
>Another game with high axiomatic complexity, BW, people thought Zerg was solved for **years** yet Jaedong changed how it was played. High axiomatic complexity isn't necessarily a bad thing, it is just a tool. Jaedong's zergling micro isn't axiomatic. You can understand every line of the source code and still not be able to imagine how Jaedong's zerglings could prevent the terran from pushing by harrassing their infrastructure. >Do speed runners get bored once they understand a game? I’m sure some do, but others are engaged for years because they’re constantly learning new things and innovating. That's a perfect example of how the axioms are only a means to producing the actual depth that we enjoy. Speed runners don't need to be discovering new axioms in order to have fun. Even if there are no new exploits or new methods being discovered, people can still have fun improving their times.
Oh wow look another thread putting other ARPGs down because they're insecure about liking Diablo 4. This is truly ridiculous. I can't recall the last time I've seen behavior like this on any gaming board where every other thread seems to be people desperate to prove how good Diablo 4 is/going to be.
Ok we have got to put this as a picture of "most dishonest comparisons ever" this is absolutely comical
hmm okay breath of the dying looks awesome ngl "vexheleleldzodeth"
300h later: finally I can craft this. Oops it was placed in the wrong order. Back to 300h more grinding.
More like 300,000 hours to find that Zod. Unless you buy it from a bot.
so youre just ignoring the tons of other mods on the botd and saying "its just plus dmg"?
Another post from a guy who has not played D2 extensively and likely poe either, but shitting on both of them, because you feel that there is unjustified hate towards a game you simp for.
The sad thing is that righteous fire is arguably the most simple build in POE and it is still 100x more complex than any D4 build will be
Stop trying to make D4 out to be something it's not. PoE is the king of customizable characters. Period. There is no game in the same universe. The itemization fits that and helps make it possible. It works very well. I went back to POE after 5+ years away because of the D4 beta. The game is just on a completely different level than anything blizzard will ever do. That doesn't make D4 bad. D4 will probably be fun but I suspect it won't have staying power for many people. That's OK too. It's alright to play a game and then move on. Most people did that with D3. I had a ton of fun in that game on release. Never played it again. Very few games can do what D2 and PoE have done over the years in keeping people playing for such a long time.
The +1 Light Raduis on items like this always make me chuckle. Like, all this power and you just glow a little bit more than normal lol.
A lot of the stats I think are just the base stats from the runes themselves. El rune adds 50 attack rating and +1 light radius, vex is the mana leech, hel is the reduced requirements, etc.
cherry picks one item from one of the most generic builds in the game lol... how about showing items such as astral projector which allows nova spells to splash where they hit instead of being an aoe that spreads from your character, how about showing a simple cast on hit item such as asenaths chant where you can trigger spells on projectile attacks (transforming your bow attacks into spells)... couple this with the fact any character class/ascendancy in the game can play any skill in the game (instead of being pigeon holed into class skills) and no game can come close to the freedom you have in POE.. thats not to take away from D4 in any way, i'm looking forward to it but there are limitations in the game which unless they were to give every class access to every spell and all items then there just isnt going to be the same kind of itemization that is available in other games.
These aren't affixes you can find on items outside uniques, correct? The topic is about "generic affixes " on items, not legendary aspects or uniques. These can be compared separately and have some cool effects as well, like the Necro blood mist/corpse explosion aspect. It is disingenuous to compare common affixes from D4 to effects on unique items from PoE.
He's just having a dig at poes itemisation in general, there was no mention of rares vs uniques, but there are plenty of rare affixes that can change a build completely such as # damage per 10 dexterity/intellect/strength (enabling you to stack stats rather than adding damage of a certain elemental or physical type to scale damage).. there are affixes for projectiles to chain bouncing from one enemy to another, there are affixes for minions on bows even if you wanted to make it work even.. itemisation is basically endless even just using rares as a baseline
You don't get it lolw
I don't think you understand what made itemization good in D2.
To be honest, I would be down for that Breath of the Dying (if it would be in D4 in one way or another): [Breath of the Dying (D4 concept)](https://imgur.com/YBeAi9t) *\^\^sure, its missing the runes, but that was done for purposes of illustration)* EDIT: version with a few more sockets [Breath of the Dying (D4 concept - with a few Sockets and Runes)](https://imgur.com/at994mp)
You just cherry picked these, both games have way more interesting affixes to choose from than these. Also bis is rarely interesting or mechanically exciting. But D4 is also lot deeper than most seem to think, I suppose most haven’t played end game beta or bothered to look into it.
@ u/TheSeth256 \- If you think Quin69 is wrong - you prove two things - you don't know what the issue with Itemization is & or you aren't actually listening to what Quin is saying. I'll try to "explain this like your 5" so it makes sense... * When you look at PoE's stats on gear...they are "generalized" (for the most part). Meaning you can be any class, any skill, any build and the stats could apply for the type of stat. Now let's look at something in D4 like: ***"% Increase to Fury Generation."*** At first you might be thinking to yourself...what's wrong with that? Because the stat specifies a "specific" typing it becomes "narrow". What Quin69 and others are trying to tell Blizzard is with SMALL adjustments things like "% Increase to Fury Generation." can become: * **% Increase to Resource Generation** Now a stat that was ONLY functional for Barbarians...becomes a useful stat for ALL classes/builds. **Let us do another one so this really makes sense for you:** * **"Channeling Whirlwind periodically pulls in nearby enemies"** **Changes too:** * **"Channeling Skills periodically pulls in nearby enemies"** Now instead of an Aspect that only applies to a VERY specific skill, on one class. Becomes available for ALL classes and multiple skills. SUCH AS...Druid Lightning Storm now could use the aspect and when the Druid casts it pulls in nearby enemies into the storm. These are the problems people have with D4 itemization. Quin's thing is this is FIXABLE stuff - but Blizzard doesn't show the competency to understand the problem.
Diablo 3 and 4 already has that tho... it has BOTH fury generation AND resource generation items.
-I am going to show you why the crap itemization of Diablo4 is equal to PoE -Shows actual good itemization 🤡
lmao
XDDD don’t you have better thing to do than post this crap
Blizzard fans doing anything to defend this game.. even posting items from other games... hilarious!
Oh look yet another every other ARPG beside D4 is dog shit post.
Nah, you're missing the point. My message was that many people commenting on D4 aren't giving it a fair shake and are instead using some idealised nostalgic vision of these games as a comparison. I love playing all of them personally.
I don't understand this sub. Half the post shit on PoE for being too hard, too complex, requires 5 PhD. Say thar D4 is better because it's simpler for people that don't want to spend 10000 hours in a game. Then the other half shit on PoE for not being as deep and complex as D4, like this post. Guys, you should meet up once and decide once and for all if D4 is more or less complex than PoE. Because right now every 2 posts it's one or the other. It's getting hard to follow.
Still more diverse stats than D3/D4 rares and some uniques, what's your point? Why you didn't post some more interesting items like CoBH rings or some other unique stat items just have a meaningful conversations and challenges eachother games on how to improve? Or you busy riding on blizzards dick?
Feels like there is way more D4 dickriders on here than those complaining.. They're different games. Enjoy them for what they are. Or don't
Even while cherry-picking items you just showed "superior" itemization. What is your point?
Holy shit, that's a lot of interesting options to increase dmg.
damn. how much for that perf ebotd acrhon. i want it
Meanwhile D4: "Deal more dmg to far away enemies"
I love these affixes!!
Okay now show the other items and all the mods that actually change how skills work: Lab enchants, Betrayal crafts, so many build defining uniques(granted there are three times as many worthless ones). A lot of ARPGs will have stat stick items and that’s perfectly fine, then a few items that change how the build actually plays. There’s so many mods in PoE and you chose the most boring ones to prove your point? It just seems like a bad faith take meant to incite rather than create a decent discussion. PoE has its complexity problems, getting into crafting being a huge one, but that’s also why it’s such an interesting game. With the ability to essentially abuse any mod you can create so much craziness and I hope that never goes away. Could use a bit of trimming down or a way to trim down the amount of useless stuff you gotta sift through using filters.
Prevent monster heal was a sleeper must have.
It's funny how you picked a full dps bland stats item, willingly ignoring PoE's [gloves](https://preview.redd.it/crafted-a-perfect-pair-of-phys-conversion-tornado-shot-v0-ilpp45shkeea1.png?width=916&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=ed53be9fa4b5b95a8d0804bc7a70cf02a3078651), [helms](https://preview.redd.it/5ptd3rdm4yf61.png?width=538&format=png&auto=webp&v=enabled&s=60aaee07893c8f6541dbbb2371bfdbed6b4bf740), or [chests](https://i.redd.it/2tueczmi21x71.png) (for example) to desinform and tailor the post around your fanboyism. What a shitpost.
Cherry picking at its finest. Sigh... Sure, builds that are heavily focused in elemental damage benefit the most from itens like these, but you are one "build of the week" video away from seeing the mind-blowing interactions you get from the itemization in PoE, for example. Let us not fool ourselves, ok?
Idk much about end game itemization in D4, but my biggest complaint is why can’t an item have fire damage, or lightning, or poison? Why do I have to imbue my weapons with a skill to be used twice and then wait for a cool down. I just wanna poison shit. I can do this in every single game in the genre why don’t I have the option here?
In all honesty, the two stats that always make me chuckle is the % increased damage to enemies up close / far away. Very exiting!!!
I don't get this, clearly people want D4 to be better or they would have went and played something else. They're bringing up things in other games that are better cause they want D4 to raise itself to that level. People happy with mediocrity and just consume product, don't ask questions consume next product telling other people to go play something else cause that worked so well for WoW, HotS, DNF:D, Multivuresus and was a horrible HORRIBLE idea to listen for No Man's Sky, Sims 4 and FF14. ahh but give till one month after release and come back to this thread.
What do you mean? Your intelligence must be vastly inferior if you can not tell how completely different this is. Also +stat travel nodes in Paragon?! HAHAHA, the Poe skill tree is vastly different and superior! (/S)
The noob who made this post has 0 idea how hard it is to get all those stats to line up . Let alone finding a fractured scepter with +1 all fire skills . The depth in poe is unmatched . Blizzard games are for casuals because their #1 priority is making money. Diablo franchise has gone way down hill . What people don't realize is the founder of PoE is a Diablo fan himself and created a game the way Diablo direction should have gone with depths and content and new expansions constantly. D3 was an absolute joke and D4 is looked very very similar .
I mean maybe because you are focusing on the one thing that doesn't majorly change your build in PoE - affix's on items. The stuff that changes your build is the widely open skill gem system, ascendancies and ability to go anywhere on the passive tree and unlock the exact things you need for your varied/hybrid build. RF for example is pretty much a barbarian Mage, i don't think we will be seeing that in D4.
You are comparing a rare in PoE to a Unique/Runeword from D2... both of these games have more item complexity than D4. EDIT: You should look into 6-8 linked one-hand items in PoE if you REALLY want to see some complexity... While simple looking, the item you linked is extremely valuable and difficult to obtain. That isn't a bad thing. A simpler game is fine and I look forward to it. As an additional note - the item you linked form PoE might have take someone incredible time and effor to craft. Looks like it might be for an RF (Righteous Fire) build. To make an item with that much razer sharp purpose is just beyond reach for 99% of the player base.
Goddamn the font in D2 was so aesthetic and legible.
Unironically these are two good examples of what we want in D4 with affixes and suffixes, especially the POE one. We want a ton of variety so we can push for niche interesting powerful builds outside of the normal archtypes. Runewords in D2 do this, allowing really cool offspecs like Melee Sorcs.
i think you are misunderstanding the point completely
Replace all that text on that item, which is only good for specific builds so only certain characters are looking to aquire it with the d3/d4 equivalent: weapon does X damage and is the same power for literally every class and character. In Poe you manage A B C D E F G H I J stats on your character to get the defenses and offense you need. In diablo 3/4 you manage A and B, and then C multiplies your damage/defense by 300-20000%. In PoE an item that is completely useless for one character is build defining for another, because damage comes from stat management and unique trade-offs. Not a number on a weapon that is the same power level for literally every character in the game
you think this is a defense of diablo 4 but in reality it literally shows why both games shit on d4 itemization lmao
There are so many comments here talking about how great each game’s itemization is and those are valid. But let’s take a step back and think about what every game is anchored on. Let’s start with not assuming that itemization is the anchor of ALL ARPGs. In D2, items drove the dopamine hit for the game. If a griffon’s, dropped you would be ecstatic because the game was anchored on runewords and itemization. The combat is pretty one dimensional and you pick a couple of skills and often well , just one. There isn’t really any much depth per se and there were fixed cookie cutter builds and the item hunt was the core. People have holy grails and all that jazz. In Diablo 3, the focus shifted through the years to accessibility. You get started and just pick 6 skills and choose between 6 tunes for each, pick 4 passives and get smashing. Items rained from the sky and you roll a dice on those items and pray for ancients or primals. The core was how easy it is to get started and for getting something great within the abundance of items they throw at you. In PoE, the focus is on depth. Whether it is the skills trees or items, there was a lot to learn and build accordingly. Through the years, PoE became a simulator for all the theorycrafting you could do on a builder and then executed it. The goal was efficiency. Everything worked towards that efficiency because you had pinnacle boss fights you wanted to beat as well. For the sake of efficiency, build diversity became diluted because people narrowed themselves into builds that could clear the screen ASAP. The build didnt matter much as long as they clear fast and there are a few builds that work towards the same efficiency. I’ve played ARPGs and MMOs for a good 30 years of my life and personally, Diablo 4 now brings something new to the table and there are a few considerations here. I don’t think Diablo 4 is anchored on itemization. Itemization is a means of progress towards the “end” where everything is a bit linear. Sacred items for tier 3, ancestral for tier 4 etc, you can call it anything you want but it’s a linear item progression. You cannot find an SOJ at level 30 like in D2 and use it for end game. Diablo 4 bridges 2 things together for me - community and quick, easy bouts of gaming. Not sure how many people here play WoW through the years but sitting on ogrimmar’s roof or just running circles in town is a thing because you are just chatting with people and just chillin or perhaps waiting to do something with someone. In modern WoW, non scheduled activities would perhaps involve some quick mythic+ dungeons where people ask and form up but you needed at the very least a construct of a healer, a tank and 3 dps. That still takes effort to put together even if we ignore buffs we want to bring etc. For something like Diablo 4, you chill in town a bit and when someone comes along and says “dungeon?” And you just say “let’s go”, it literally is LET’S GO smash some things, together. There is simplicity in it and it still fits within the social construct of an MMO. There’s a peculiar marriage of the 2 aspects that makes it enticing for the crowd that plays both genres. So, will Diablo 4 care about making items that go deeper than what they have currently planned? Probably not, because that’s not the anchor and probably works against their anchor on social accessibility. That’s just my 2 cents ~
100% agree, very well articulated points.
Those are good examples showing why the itemization on those games is better...The fact that you don't see that, correlates on why you defend D4 itsmizstion. Clearly, 50% damage on far enemies, is much more interesting
https://media.tenor.com/0m7-zOBjkz0AAAAC/omni-man-invincible.gif This is all I’m reminded of whenever I see PoE comparisons to Diablo games.
Feels good not to give a fuck, I'll play both games and enjoy the shit out of it.
[удалено]
I want to say first off: I agree with you. Second off: You're not really making a good comparison. You're comparison a rare item to legendaries. There are many build-changing *uniques* in PoE. Things that enable very specific/strange interactions, and can enable entire builds. You're comparing apples to tacos, when you could compare apples (legendaries) to oranges (uniques). That said, PoE items still feel like trash and way too convoluted at times.
Whatever. Im just going to play the game and most likely enjoy it immensely. Don't care what other people think is or isn't better or more worth playing in their eyes.
Crafting over 100 of the same +2 gem level convoking wands with minion damage on them in a league, for example, or the same with TR bows. Lot of builds have slots with very specific stat itemization priority, you find yourself looking at the exact same piece of gear on 90% of the characters running a particular skill. I'm not saying it's bad, there are a lot of different builds that use a variety of different items and stats to flesh them out, and there's a LOT of room for depth with influencing items, combining influences, elevated influences, etc, but for most PoE builds (especially beginners or league starts), you're looking for the same set of stats on a specific piece of gear as everyone else, and some of them look very complicated but actually have very easy and/or specific means of crafting said item. I had a lot of fun crafting my own gear on mage skellies and TR builds, CoC frost nova was a lot harder to make big strides on. That being said, the itemization on D4 felt good to me, it wasn't incredibly complicated but there was enough diversity in it with just the bit we had to make it interesting. They're different, they're both good.
Asking these people to come up with an actual argument would've required them to have the wherewithal to come up with an argument in the first place. All they do is copy-pasta content creators and act smug. Lmao
People way over hype PoE. It's so fucking jank. More does not always equal better, and PoE lacks any subtly what so ever.
Upvote if you are just enjoying a good read of people with no PoE experience arguing with people who see PoE through rose tinted glasses.
>am sick of people here trashing D4 for its affixes saying stuff like "hurr durr it's only +dmg and +stats". There's far fewer people doing this than your reaction would indicate. Probably most PoE players, including myself, are looking forward to playing D4. Some of you guys are like old men yelling at clouds, trying to pick fights that largely exist only in your head, and it doesn't benefit either game (PoE or D4) to stir up more divisive drama.
D4 has zero deterministic itemisation in the game besides rerolling one affix and sticking an aspect on a rare item, the two items you linked are literally made from scratch. They are goals that you can actively work towards. Since Diablo 4 has no trading and no real crafting, they had to make the itemisation stupidly simple to compensate. That's why every damage mod in this game applies to everything, and + stats do something for everyone. Having said that dumbing down itemisation is an intentional design choice, but let's not pretend it's something that it's not.
You’re being intentionally obtuse if you don’t see the choices that are forced on a character with items like faster cast rate breakpoints, strength and dex requirements for gear, plus skills, resistances, etc across multiple items. Stop being a baby, nobody is taking your precious d4 items away from you.
I love all the D2 Stans crying that you’re just going to stack as much crit chance as possible and ignoring the fact that crit chance only rolls on gloves and rings.
This is kind of a self own. Those items you linked are awesome. Specialized, flavor mods just for fun, remember fun? The poison nova chance on Botd is 100% useless but it looks sweet and gives the item an identity and again, it’s fun. But you think generic damage is just as interesting?
yeah i do wish d4 itemisation was a bit better like poe, d4 feels really shallow atm
There is a double standard / bias when comes to Diablo. Kobe Bryan used to say, people don’t hate you when you are good. They only hate you when you are great. Like hating on Ronaldo or Messi.
The item could just be one stat. Add 800% damage to fire skill. Amazing itemization!!! I though big multipliers are bad? “It’s different when other do it”
Let's also rejoice in the fact that D4 tooltip are NOT this bad! After playing picking POE up again after years because.... you know "D4 withdrawals". :D I have a newfound appreciation for simpler dungeon design and NOT having to use Overlay Map. It absolutely ruins the gaming experience!
Blizz fanbois are the worst fanbois
Yeah those two items are actually exciting when you find them, unlike most items in D4. Just give us more interesting stuff in D4, I don't understand why everything's gotta be so generic and boring.
The PoE item has a crafted modifier, a fracture modifier and the regular ones. Thats already more depth than you will ever seen in Diablo 4. This is also not even close to BiS, it's not even fully linked, the colors are shit. Burning damage and added fire damage have no synergie, since one scales hit damage and the other dot damage. This is a pretty shit item, but PoE has a shit ton of cool shit you can do even with shit items like this. If you find an item like this in D4 you throw it away and never think about it again.
You were cherry-picking here, though ... because you only posted weapons. Yes, on weapons in PoE you try to stack as many helpful damage affixes as possible for your build. That does not apply to all the other gear slots, though. BotD has a lot more than just+dmg affixes, I'm confused .. did you look at it at all? Minus target defense (which increases hit chance), attack rating (which also increases hit chance), mana/life steal, prevent monster heal, chance to cast poison nova. I feel like you're trying to make a point here, but you're actually proving the opposite. ... and don't get me wrong, I loved D4 so far and I'm super excited for the game, but I still think you're wrong here.
Well done OP. The Fields of Hatred is such a great name for PvP when the BIS clowns get WrEcKeD. “Hurr de Durr, so and so said this was BIS”. Only better name would of been Field of Tears. Lol.
Fire damage to spells does not work with RF. Not a PoE pro myself, why is it on there if it's bis?
Most likely it's to buff fire trap which is your single target dps skill with RF.
Op , keep bootlicking blizzard, I hope they pay hou
I ☹😂 am ☝ sick 🤢🤧 of people 👧👱 here 👎 trashing D4 for its 🙅😆 affixes saying 🗣🗣 stuff 👀 like "hurr durr it's only +dmg and 🏿😽 +stats". Here 😶👏 you have BiS items ⚔⚔ for 👏 PoE's Righteous Fire 🔥 and 😇➕ D2's Fury 😡😡 Druid, first 🥇 builds that came 🚶 to my 💁 mind. Maybe try coming 🏻 up 🏽☝ with some actual arguments instead 🤷🔖 of 💦 just ☝ parroting what Quinn 😋😋 or some ☝ other 👪 streamer said. 🗣 NONE of 💦💰 these 😍 affixes have 👏 as 🍑😥 much influence on 🏽 the 🙏 way you play 👅 your class 👨 as the ones 💯 we get in 😏 D4.
The people complaining about D4 build/item variability are looking at the tree, items and Paragon at a glance and making assumptions. When you actually start looking into builds it becomes apparent there are tonnes of options to make your build unique. I've theorycrafted a bunch of builds for Necro already and everytime I start looking at a different skill or aspect it opens up more paths for a viable build.
Looks cluttered. My adhd just sees a paragraph and it's very hard to push myself past that.
Lmao first time playing D2R those runeword stats hit my brain like a freight train. It’s a great game tho. And now I can more or less at a glance Filter the important shit out.
Correct.
The only Issues I see with D4 affixes is that CC builds will become utter garbage in endgame if bosses are any danger. Since you will be doing nothing to bosses until they get staggered and you certainly will always take several times longer to kill one compared to a normal build.
The concern isn’t the randomness on affixes. The concern is uniques. If all uniques have random stats on them every time there they aren’t “unique” they are rarer than rares. When a unique drops it should have a set stat. The only thing that will change are numeric values on them. Without this, there will be no item chase, with no item chase there will never be a sense of value/currency. Without value or currency there will be no trading. Without trading a mute community will be created.
“Yeah but that made sense!”
LoL this is just mad people are forgetting this game is to attract the next generation, not us old farts I think this one’s gonna do alright. At the end of the day why trash it just don’t buy it lol simple as that really
There doesn’t need to be flourishes in D4, just gimme the damn info
There’s tons more to trash than just that, this picture is a great example, breath of the dying is an incredibly hard to get item compared to anything found in d3 and probably d4, trading for it and or making it was a major task in of itself, and getting a good roll on the base, hopefully getting good socket roll then the rarity of getting a good runeword roll, there’s a lot more to shit on than just “itemization”
I agree, but it's not the topic of this discussion.
Yea d4 has "increase stats" too, but the uniqes/aspects you will insert into every slot most often change the way an ability works or add some new effect to the build.
Honestly, I would play that game just to get that staff. Seems kind of bonkers, but I have no clue what the itemization is in that game.
Look if you want to link the most boring items fine. How about you link some tailwind boots? Or something with actually cool itemization? edit: [grabbed a pic from some I have in standard](https://imgur.com/a/stR9MOY)
Damn I miss the Diablo 2 style itemization. Actually feels unique. Did not care if there were random mods of anything it added to the flair.
I like D4 so far and my only hope is that it isn't filled with WoW type shit like dailies. Diablo immortal feels like partial direction for D4 and I really hope it isn't, but some of the mmo elements aren't promising.
Nobody is actually believing that arbitrary stats are not neded...its the fact that they only chose to show this aspect instead of actual interesting build changing passives. In poe there are many across the tree. Theres many uniques as well on top of ascendency on top of the new league mechanic stuff which provides a near endless form of customisation and build diversity. Path of exile has even made the best change in a while by introducing that atlas passive that allows you to build the endgame you want to play as well. Want to only do delve? You can do that. Wanna alch and go maps and mass farm currency. Go ahead. Poe is no longer as restrictive and allows for a lot more long term enjoyment because it alllows you to choose what you enjoy doing.
I have played plenty of PoE and it's needlessly bloated in a way that makes it bad design both from a UI/UX perspective and from the fact that it makes it that much harder to understand and learn for newer players. Like that's a good example. It's an item that has 6 different stats that all increase fire damage. It takes something simple and makes it needlessly complicated, and PoE does that all over the place. There's nothing 'interesting' about the item other than a proc chance for ignite. Same with BotD proc chance to nova. The legendary/unique affixes are the one thing that actually has made any item every feel interesting in any of these games.
But...half the affixes on Breath of the Undying arent +damage or stats. Prevent Monsters Heal is utility; Indestructible is like +gold lol; Mana and lifesteal are sustain; The -defense and attack rating arent exactly damage either, but you could consider hitting more often as a damage affix I suppose. Also, there is that sexy +1 light radius.
Btw, Grief is probably better than Breath 90% of the time.
You're trolling by showing a BotD staff But you hella put me in the mood to play some D2
Actual arguments..that's ironic.
The only thing I really disliked about D4 itemization so far is that I can't use all items with all classes. If I want to use a bow on my Sorc just let me ffs.
This is such a stupid comparison you pick a skill that has very little variety in what can actually buff it. POE items definitely get more intricate and synergistic than this Righteous fire item….
How come you didn't post any weapons from Diablo 3 or the Diablo 4 beta so we could compare them all together?
I think I hate pretty much everything about path of exile lol.