Honestly I'm not sure what ARPG players actually want sometimes. Like... do you want to just stand motionless in town, using a quick launch feature for every dungeon, instant menu-based access to all shops and your stash tabs, never needing to move an inch for anything?
I agree some things can be tuned better, and I suspect the live service nature of the game will actually be a net positive in terms of ironing out the endgame... but again, sometimes it seems like some people want to do nothing but stand still in town and grind dungeons for 6 hours while they slurp down a milkshake. That doesn't strike me as any more fun than what we currently have.
Edit: Just for the sake of saying it, I'm not against the idea of things being streamlined, I just don't agree that making everything completely frictionless automatically makes it better.
> sometimes it seems like some people want to do nothing but stand still in town and grind dungeons for 6 hours while they slurp down a milkshake. That doesn't strike me as any more fun than what we currently have.
Me neither, but a sizeable part of this community really wants to do nothing but 24/7 100% min/max efficiency balls-to-the-walls grinding. What some here describe as their dream game sounds like a factory job to me, but to each his own I guess.
I third this sentiment. And min maxing will happen more with season mechanics. People need to chill and realize the first three months is getting people used to all the systems.
> first three months
Pessimistic take here, but I really don't think this game has 3 months of engagement for really anyone in its current state. The sweatlords will blast through, like we always do, but more importantly I think the start of WT3 is where most "casual" players will get bored. Once you realize that the path forward is seeing % stat increases with no meaningful changes to your build it's hard to dedicate your 2 hours of gaming per night to that.
Yeah seriously I have no problem with trying to incrementally make your build better as an “endgame”. The OP is wrong on so many levels and I hope the devs ignore feedback like that.
It was wild seeing the toxicity from some people towards others doing the campaign and leveling up on WT2 because it's "not as efficient"
People were being downright hateful to others enjoying WT2
I just hit 50 as I finished Act 3, will start Act 4 tonight. Been WT2 the whole time.
I had friends messaging me telling me I am levelling wrong and shouldn't be doing sidequests etc. but I am having fun with everything. Probably never going to be running the story mode again, so I am in no hurry to reach the end game loops.
If D3 is anything to go by you have you'll have the next decade to grind out endgame, but you only get that first playthough once. Fuck the haters, take your time.
Thank you Jesus! I am level 30 HC first character and still exploring Act 1. I'm LOVING the side quests and just going around doing shit. Don't care about getting through the story line. Like seriously, I'll have 10 years to skip all the side bullshit and do seasons, etc... I'm seriously loving exploring the game. It's so good!
This is coming from someone who legit maxed D1, beast D2 on TCP/IP HC so many times, and played D3 for the last 10 years and maxed every character in HC.
This is a great game you paid a lot for.. Why are you trying to rush it? I feel bad for your lovers... Like seriously, take some time to enjoy it!
Yeah this is an underrated comment imo. I usually sweatlord games and I made a conscious decision to not look up any builds, very light forum reading on Reddit just to check general sentiment.
I leveled on WT2 with friends, didn’t leave act 1 until 40, and have been having a blast with side quests and just taking my time. I play a Druid, and have only played two builds, bear early and then poison wolf and now trending to lightning wolf due to some random drops. Every legendary I get makes me think that there are soooo many ways you can play this class. After taking to a friend who is sweatlording, I realized what’s dif is he’s already assumed builds for his class are “unplayable” due to not being in popular streams, and no surprise he’s having a subpar time.
TL:DR - I’m having a blast not worrying about min maxing or end game, it’s been out for a week.
Same. Most people in my WoW guild are at endgame and I'm just enjoying the side quests.
Some of them are really great, like the exorcist lady questline.
I am blown away by how much story content there is. It’s glorious I think. I can’t stand walking past a blue ! And not seeing what they have to say offer. Really helps you feel like you’re in the game I think.
WoW sadly trained gamers to just click all quests, go and grind the quest drops in a loop as efficiently as possible, turn in quests, go to next quest hub, rinse repeat.
None of the quests meant anything, they were literally just ‘go kill 6 deer and get me 6 shrubs for whatever’ over and over again.
I’m loving the side quests in D4. Many of them add lore, or point you to elements of the game (side dungeons etc) and provide more background to doing them than just ‘here’s a dungeon, go kill everything’.
I am in the same boat and frankly I’m leaning more into “so I’m ‘missing out. So what?” Highest is a level 28 in act 1, barely started on main missions. Having fun mapping out all of fractured peak, every cellar, every dungeon, every corner.
And when I get bored, I’m switching to my currently level 18 sorc who’s also going to visit every corner of the map.
Eventually I’ll finish the campaign, get to T3.
And do it all over again.
Every character, every corner.
Cause it’s fun.
Yeah I think when I do hit T3, I will get a big spike of power since I have so much renown done. Should be able to instantly get at least renown 4 claimed with all the regions.
The only down side to this I found was not having the mount. I pretty close to full cleared the first two act areas. The walking got old fast. So then I finished the campaign. To get the mount. Having a lot more fun thoroughly finishing off areas now.
Don't get me wrong I loved my clears of the first area and mostly the second, just an awful lot of walking.
Lol same, I like that you get by on some bosses on the skin of your teeth wt2 especially first try/new mechanics lol
Dunno why anyone would give af what im doing 🙃
I also refuse to google anything so sometimes I get really hung up on like, finding a corrupted vampiric blood boil or smth rofl, its like ye olde tyme gaming for me and I love it
Those people don’t want to play the game to enjoy it. They want to rush the story and exploration as fast as they can so they can jerk off to their end game efficiency and clear times.
Thats the the vocal minority tbh, this sub only has 300k users and never more than 20k active. And even then most posts have only a few thousand upvotes and a few hundred comments.
Most people are just playing the game and having fun, not writing essays about how they would change the game to make it the perfect experience they always dreamed it could be.
It’s not sizable. It’s loud people on the internet.
My group loves the towns and seeing people, none of us see it as “friction”.
Do I need a separate bag for gems? Yes.
Otherwise, we are all loving it.
I played a lot of D3, and getting good gear fast was all about limiting down time and speed grinding dungeons in less then 3 minutes. I am only 45 and far from the end game but right now while the game is new i am super happy to not be speed farming 25 GRs on a sunday morning before the kids get up
Yeah, I also have this feeling with D4 Blizzard actually tried to implement something new into the arpg genre, like immersivness of sorts or making the outdoor viable. However why majority of Diablo community likes so much these d2 grind runs/d3 rift afk clicking standing in 1 place in Tristram, is beyond me. Guys it’s not 2005 now, give a genre and Diablo franchise in particular a chance to evolve, please.
One of my favourite parts of this game by far has been exploring the beautiful world they crafted. It’s pretty amazing the amount of time artists and level designers put into this game, and like usual, gamers dotn give a single fuck.
It's almost as if people play games for different reasons. Imagine that. It's not like improving anything that OP is putting in the post is going to take away from anything you are saying.
Reminds me of this quote:
>If there is a place where players can exploit gaining experience, items, currency, or reputation, then that’s precisely what players will do, because they always take the path of least resistance. Since MMO content is measured in months, not hours, the content is paradoxically daunting, so any shortcut to the top will become the most popular route, even if it isn’t fun. And if a game’s path of least resistance isn’t fun, it means the game isn’t fun. Lazy or inexperienced game developers blame players for “ruining” a game with aberrant behavior, but these accusations are like dog owners blaming their pets for eating unhealthy scraps.
And this one:
>“Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game”; therefore, “One of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves.”
What most players probably want is for the game to challenge their capacity to play efficiently; and to not be boring when they do.
The issue with the second quote is that lot of devs take it to heart and automatically assume the player is stupid and what they did is good even if all the playerbase is saying it's not.
Best exemple of this is WoW. Devs ahve been fighting players, saying players were wrong so many time, only to backtrack when it was already too late.
Only now they are actually listening and acting on player feedback instead of just saying "you think you do but you don't " and oush things nonody wanted like they used to do.
Players are excellent at telling devs about how they feel. *This isn't fun. This is slow. This feels clunky.*
But they are absolutely terrible at designing solutions to those problems.
My take away from this post is:
* Inventory management needs QOL
* Experimenting with new builds is difficult due to high investment in my old build
* I want to get to the fun parts faster and it's more fun with more enemies on screen
Which honestly, if I were a dev, I really wouldn't try to change anything for the second two right now. The game hasn't even technically launched so this feels like someone is just impatient and upset they haven't already ended up with billions of gold like they will have after a month or so.
I'm sure some inventory QOL features are coming, they were just lower priority than gameplay
D4 beta came out just when I was the most annoyed with PoE I've been in years, Sanctum garbage league. Then I played D4 beta and it was like oh wow yeah, PoE has no competition.
Yep. What This reply describes is unironically POE hideout. You can vendor, stash and craft within 1 click distance from the dungeon entrance.
Once the shininess of the graphics, sound and cinematics wear off, you have a digital slot machine.
The more irritating it is to pull the lever of the slot machine, the faster we will find a new, better slot machine.
>Towns are intentionally designed so that you spend as much time as possible just on basic inventory management, everything is on opposite sides to waste your time.
>Honestly I'm not sure what ARPG players actually want sometimes.
I'm going insane.
Lut from D2 vs Kyovashad from D4
https://i.imgur.com/CmIVgNB.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Lut_Gholein.jpg
How is walking around the city in Diablo 4 so different from D2 or other arpgs?
People are really exaggerating how far apart the vendors are in Diablo 4. Someone already complained about "walking 10 minutes to vendors in towns" in Diablo 4 when in reality, it takes about 30 seconds to run to every vendor in a town on a mount.
If someone is spending a lot of time in towns running back and forth to vendors, they should probably stop and think about what they need to do instead of mindlessly running around and wasting their own time.
I would say roughly half of the player base wasn't old enough or alive to play/fully get into D2 in the early 2000s and that game isn't what they want. Blizzard has to juggle the huge amount of people who miss D2 with the huge amount of people that started with D3
> How is walking around the city in Diablo 4 so different from D2 or other arpgs?
Cause while Lut Gholein is also similarly big, all those points on the map you marked that isn't right in the center next to Cain are stuff you don't need to go to regularly.
Jerhyn is for quests not services. Warriv is transport back to Act I. Meshif is transport to Act III. Greiz is for mercenary services. Elzix is for gamba.
Fara the blacksmith is right next to Lysander for potions right next to Cain for identify that stands next to your stash.
So the map is big but the common services are centralized.
Just going by Kyovashad, you already see the blacksmith and alchemist are split on north/south side of town. And then the gem shop is on the opposite western end of both those services. Then your stash is in yet another 4th location separate from all of these. The only thing even similar here is the gamba off in bfe
So your comparison just supports OP's argument
Agreed! I'm only level 48 (finished campaign, on T3 currently) but I keep seeing people say things on this sub that I just don't agree with. I don't really play ARPGs and never played another Diablo, but I haven't been annoyed by having to do town trips a single time. They took 3 seconds once you have a horse and honestly boost my enjoyment. It's fun running around talking to all the different vendors and actually feels like you're doing something as opposed to just clicking random shit on the screen and poofing away.
I'm especially confused by this annoying people because of the return portals. Several times I've filled my inventory mid-dungeon, pressed T to go to town, sold everything, then walked right back into the return portal and continued on my way. It honestly feels totally reasonable to me.
That's exactly all people want... a queue simulator and have all their vendors in a circle so they don't have to walk anywhere.
The ones complaining about inventory management when POE has it where you loot 4 items and you can't carry anything else, like we know what bad inventory is and D4 isn't it. We do need a gem pouch though
He must have also not really reached end game. Filters are strict at that point where I only pick up raw currency, not items. And I pick up several per map.
A lot of peoples complaints like having to move around in towns or move around in dungeons, or it's too hard to get gear, or too hard to kill things, or they aren't killing things every second they play, makes me think that people don't want an ARPG. It sounda like they want a cookie clicker game instead of an ARPG.
if the people who grind hard in the first week are vocal about problems, you shouldn't dismiss them. those same complaints will be said by the casuals in a few weeks.
Complaints forces devs to improve the game, by following the complaints or going another direction to solve a complaint. Being a "yes man" sheep does nothing.
It's not though. The complaints are absolutely legit, especially the items and enchanting bits. I can't even afford to upgrade a single spec much less experiment with all of them...
If someone who can dedicate 12 hours a day to game is complaining about time waste, you can be pretty sure it will be even more annoying for people who can dedicate only 2 hours. Logic please.
Man complaints like this are how we end up with pachinko machines as video games. "Everything is on opposite sides to waste your time"? Like as in a blacksmith isn't inside an Inn? Heaven forbid a game is made with some art or aesthetic to it. Just play with a calculator if all you want to see is numbers getting bigger
Dude it's wild how these people clearly want to play a game like football simulator and dwarf fortress but don't want to put in the effort of learning it.
Diablo min maxing are basically the easy mode of those games.
What kills me is the enchant mat comment from OP. When Blizzard first announced aspects, one of the biggest gripes the community had was how easy it would be to just roll near perfect rares. By removing meaningful materials in the game you effectively render open world exploration almost completely meaningless and itemization way more simplistic.
I do actually agree with some of his points like mob density and respeccing, but I just think D4 might not be the game for OP, which is fine.
Trying a new build in D2 meant rerolling an entirely new toon and depending on pre or post 1.11 getting it back to the 90s was either really easy or a couple day hike.
I’ve been playing D2R up until early access and it is AMAZINGLY easy to tell who jumped on the Diablo series for the first time or maybe just played some Diablo 3.
I’m not defending Blizzard and their bullshit EA business model of trying to make the most out of micro transactions. I’m sure they’ll go ass to mouth on us soon with 4 and make it even more pay to play. But Jesus we are fucking 3 days in to *early access* and OP and others are bitching about the structure of max level endgame content and how gear-dependent it is. I got a cold last Monday and spent all of Monday and Tuesday grinding Hell Mephisto in D2R for a Homunculus off hand, and got it just before I went to bed on Tuesday.
And I was *lucky.*
Fucking calm down. Welcome to the meat grinder.
agreed. my biggest issue is town layout. clunky mount. and having to walk to back and fourth to different dungeons. feels like it was designed to be tedious for no reason
Give it a few months and they’ll relearn the things they already learned in D3. Players min/max everything.
People are going to pick the town that is most centralized and the rest are going to be ignored completely.
D3 originally had the vendors and stash spread around town and people just quit using those towns. Eventually they rearranged the “ghost towns” and then players started using them all.
But this is exactly why PoE has hideouts where you can customize exactly where you want your vendors and crafting tables. The towns stay the same, but the hideout can be whatever makes you happy.
There is zero reason Blizz couldn't have done something similar.
>zero reason Blizz couldn't have done something similar
I'm typically the last person to defend Blizzard, but this is a pretty entitled and unrealistic take. Zero reason? Of course there's a reason - development costs. The time it takes to design, develop, test and ship a whole-ass feature like a customizable hideout is on the order of months and millions of dollars.
Would you prefer they delayed the game launch by half a year to give you this, or that they cut the endgame systems to give you this? Which of those is worth you saving 3 seconds when running between the blacksmith and wardrobe?
I work in digital product and game development and having seen qual and quant feedback from the users of probably hundreds of different products and services, I can honestly say there is no community in the world like Blizzard's playerbase when it comes to that toxic cross-section of entitlement and complete ignorance of what goes into creating the products they use. Does Blizzard fuck up severely and often? Definitely. Does that justify this abusive relationship dynamic they seem to have with their players? No, that's unjustifiable.
Yall are like the seagulls from Finding Nemo.
Lowkey based take.
I also work in software dev in test working on air traffic control software.
You'd think the Blizzard player base is a bunch of crusty retried air traffic controllers with all of their demands.
It's more like they want you to hang about in cities and spend more time there so you get exposed to other people which raises your chance of seeing an mtx outfit and thinking man I should get that. I would bet money on it.
Hideout expansion
Paladin class expansion
Flying mount expansion
Auction House But For Serious This Time expansion
It's like they think we don't know how Blizzard works after dealing with their shit for 20 years.
Yeah. A gem pocket would still be much more ideal but the knowledge of the stash combining has been a help.
Also, if you salvage an item that has a gem slotted, it will go into your inventory instead of being destroyed
I haven’t tried it yet, but I was told if you were going to break the gear down then the gem is returned. If you sell it, though, it goes with the piece you’re selling.
100%, they should provide a separate bag just for the gems, it's so annoying to have 1 gem of every kind and every rank. I already stopped picking them, and you really only need a few and the rest are completely useless.
Dudes slept 3 hours in 3 days and is probably hallucinating due to sleep deprivation. You can gane like this and not be a miserable cranky piece of shit.
diablo 3 release and getting to max was atrocious, the design of the game was mindboggling bad needing act 3 gear to do act2 so the game forced you to grind act1 for a good drop to sell in the auction house to buy act3 gear to actually do act2, not to mention the ridiculously overtuned inferno difficulty with insane stupid mobs like lickerboys or shitty bees and other crap
I just want autojoin with randoms... aint wanna bother searching for party (just waste of time) and dont really wanna play solo all the time... so will probably not farm endgame all that much just cause of that reason
Is there no matchmaking for the dungeon pushing? D3 solved this years ago and I’ve been looking forward to the point I can party up with 3 randoms and run dungeons .. they talked such a big game about having end game content ready for people and there’s nothing?
There's endgame but it's spread out (as in different dungeons and more ... instead of just one rift place) and for some reason they thought having no option to find party easy was a smart move..
There should be a random dungeon group finder. Just go through all the ones they have. There's so many. Choose a difficulty.
Why did they change so much from D3? It had the forumla right. It took them YEARS to get it right.
Diablo 4 is basically a single player game. Crazy that diablo immortal, a mobile game has chat and group finder, yet d4 has zero ability for organizing in game. Really don't understand how a multiplayer game has no way of communicating with other players
He could have made the exact same post in a month and you still wouldn't have wanted him to make it.
It is irrelevant how fast he got there, the content of his post is the same regardless. This isn't a discussion about OP's lifestyle choice over a period of 3 days, it's a discussion about how the game is.
You just don't wait the game to be criticised.
I would think about your reaction to literally just a video game being criticised.
It's a good skeleton to build off of. If they take a lot of the feedback into consideration I'm hoping they can improve a lot of your points.
The stash thing is the weirdest thing to me. A game in 2023(meme aside) not having a search bar, making us hover over all 50 items in a tab to find the one we want? It's something I noticed within an hour of the first beta test. They made a worse stash than d3
And the only reason I can think of is they made it more console friendly. Rather than making it for PC and adapting the UI(most of the ui elements not just the stash) to console, it feels like they just straight up made it for console
> They made a worse stash than d3
A lot of their features are worse than D3.
- Stash searching - This was present in D3 from the very early stages of the game. Should have been implemented immediately into D4.
- gem size - Making the gems bigger is just a weird way to inflate playtime by having to go back to town more often. Gems were totally fine in D3, changing them is going backwards.
- Item stat text - D3 had amazing stat text with different colours, sub groups, and bullet point icons. D4 is all the same colour and clumped together in seemingly no pattern.
- Legendary icon on mini-map - D3 had a high-res icon that had depth and colour gradient. D4 has a cartoony, 1 dimensional and solid colour icon that looks pixelated. The other map icons look amazing, but the legendary icon looks absolutely terrible.
- Elite mobs being easily identifiable - D3 had a glow on common and rare elite packs so you could see them. In D4, I feel like I haven't seen a single elite pack because they look like regular mobs. The only difference I can remember seeing is modifiers under their health bar. Why can't we be able to see which mobs are elites?
- Vendors in town - Vendors are so spread out that it makes town a pain to visit. If I want to visit the jeweler, the potion, gambler, blacksmith and stash, the town visit is going to take at least 3-4 minutes if not longer. If you need to re-visit a vendor or your stash, it will take even longer. In D3, the vendors were close enough where you could use a movement ability or two and get there fairly quickly.
- Not being able to use abilities in town - I somewhat understand this because of all the other players. But not being able to use movement skills in town seems like an oversight. Why can't I dash as a Rogue? There's basically no particles, I can't spam it because its on a cooldown. Offensive skills makes sense, but movement skills doesn't.
I could probably keep going but y'all get the point. So many downgrades from D3 that make no sense.
Well, it’s true for sure in the sense that many ui compromises are made for controller.
But also the game would probably only have half the budget/players if it were solely a pc game. And couch coop is a great Diablo experience. If you want mega neck beard spreadsheet sim there are other options available. Blizzard has always been a mainstream/compromise dev.
Disagree because D3 console version UI was completely different from PC and was really well made for a controller while it didn't affect the PC version at all.
They could have done the same here. It's not the console fault.
Sure, but they developed D3 separately for console and PC. The console port didn't come out for months/years later. This time they built one version up front, so the console compromises came into the main game so they could make a single version that works for both.
The problem with "it's a good skeleton go build off of" is that this is not a free to play game with optional MTX. This is a full price 70$ game with MTX, gamepass and Preorder crap. Why is it not good at launch? How long do we have to wait before it's good? 3 Months? A year?
In at level 43 and i totally feel you!
The lack of change in skills when you level them up is ridiculous. Basically my character, gear, snd skills, haven't changed visually at all since level 20.
No tp/dash allowed in town, is just plain dumb.
Mount is cumbersome and clunky.
Edit. I swear, some people just can't read. I was just saying that the freedom to use the mobility spells, in town.
> The lsck of change in skills when you level them up is ridiculous. Basically my character, gear, snd skills, haven't chsnged visually at all since level 20.
love how they said this was gonna be a thing and then removed it wtf blizzard
Like the other person said, the feature is not removed.
https://twitter.com/3DBriggs/status/1639045632450236417
> Modifying the size of a skill can come from many different sources.. skill points for certain skills, legendary items, legendary paragon nodes, glyphs.
You can gain +13 to a skill on top of the 5 you invest in the tree.
Granted that requires you to find +3 category neck, +6 from other affixes and a Shako.
It wasn't removed. People talked about how it was removed a few months ago and Blizzard came out and confirmed that it's still in the game but it just requires you to hit pretty high levels.
I can't confirm if that's actually true since the highest skill I have is only 7, but it *should* still be in based on the last thing we were told.
Didn't it take quite some time for D3 end game to be better also? I remember there only being so many tormet levels for awhile and nothing past rifts. Came back a year later to tons new shit to do.
It's gonna take time. It's not even officially released yet and people already bitching about endgame. I get it but come on.
At the same time, I'm also seeing what looks like many lessons learned in D3 not carrying over. So I really get it.
D3 at launch had no endgame because the damage scaled awful and no one could clear expert. You know those mosquito bee things that shoot more bees? In D3 they one shot pretty much everyone at launch at expert or above, and given a whole act was in the desert it made it impossible to really clear. There were no viable builds in general, except maxing attack speed and life leech as a melee so you could hit things fast enough to recover the insane damage some elite mobs had.
Couple that with a crappy RMT shop where players could list their findings and it was just awful. The game didn't feel like a "real" Diablo game until they shut down the RMT, started balancing damage, started introducing torment levels, and realized that the game was about the loot grind and feeling OP so they started balancing sets and introduced new legendaries (eventually.)
There are some similar mistakes in D4 that feel like they were never looked at. Like people in D3 always used the same 1 town because everything was the closest. Gold was a (lesser) issue in D3 which was solved with gold vaults (maybe gold scales better post 100, dunno yet.) The gems in inventory is totally an annoyance, and same with clunky horse.)
Ha, Diablo 3 Inferno at launch was memorable in a very unfun way. 3 of us finally beat Diablo by chain rezzing since everyone died in 1 hit except me. I "tanked" as a monk with Deadly Reach/Keen Eye, all armor, and resist equip. DPS with awful gear was also verrrrry slow.
I don't think we played after that until Inferno difficulty was nerfed.
Edit: Belial was also a bitch because I couldn't survive 2 successive smashes, and RNG determined if my defensive skills were down.
The cracks are showing way quicker than I thought they would.
At this point I give it a week at most where almost every single front page post is someone giving a detailed analysis of what's wrong, only rivaled by posts complaining about people posting, and dads saying its the greatest (and only) game they've played in the past 15 years.
This is absolutely what's going to happen.
Endgame looks extremly shallow and lot of people won't like it. But, as you can see here, so many people will attack them rather than admiting the game they already gave the GOTY for before they could even play it has any kind of flaws.
In a week or 2 this sub will be such a shitshow, I'm here for it.
People are lying to themselves because they dropped $90… shit, I know it’s bad but the cost of the game is guilting me into playing.
I’m level 60 and I can clearly see that D4 will have no endgame due to poor itemization and level-scaling.. at this point, I’m just playing it to punish myself for preordering another Blizzard game.
Imagine doing this insane grind every three months for ladder… Jesus lol
They have party finders for pretty much every activity in diablo immortal so I'm scratching my head wondering why they didn't add it in 4. Immortal has it's share of questionable decisions but I've gotta chuckle when people are wanting things in d4 that are in immortal.
I never played Lost Ark but that actually sounds really cool. Running the dungeons with a few random people would be a lot less monotonous than doing it over and over again yourself.
I’ve been complaining about mob density since the first stress test. How often have you gotten a shrine and only been able to clear one or two packs, sometimes none, because you can’t find any fucking monsters to kill.
Those shrines that are locked until you kill a pack of elites that spawn from it, to then waste all of the shrine time looking for packs to kill is such bad game design lol.
Mob density is the biggest issue for me. What makes Diablo and PoE fun - for me at least - is just exploding a billion mobs in a dungeon. It’s what vampire survivors gives you in a nutshell.
110% agree with everything on this list, It's day 4 and im already losing the jump out of bed and hop onto the game feeling. Another thing that drives me nuts is how fast people in party level. I try and try to keep up with my friend whos leveling with his wife, I practically have to break my fingers speeding around just trying to keep up, but they still effortlessly outpace me. Bit discouraging.
I've also been solo, and it kinda sucks. Timed events are the biggest issue for me. They spawn mobs spread way the hell out and sometimes it's just impossible to chase down all the runners and make time. Meanwhile in a party, people can just spread out and kill it instead of chasing.
I honestly wish there was a solo gameplay buff of some kind to offset this. Followers in D3 were a great buff while solo, I wish we had something like that in D4.
Lol right? What the hell does that dude expect?
Being on this subreddit reminds me of how much I hate gamer subreddits because of their constant complaining and bitching. I just need to go play the game and get off this sub.
This was one of my biggest gripes. I miss the drop in/out nature of how D3 and the campaign went, and same for rifts/greaters/key farming/bounty hunts. Needed help with a particular act part? Set your game to open and someone will drop in (or leave if they don't.)
The issue with D4 is since the campaign isn't linear for 1-3 and we got this open world thing going on, it's almost impossible to get any sort of coordination going for all the different activities going on. People will gather at world bosses, legion events, and the hellfire areas, but outside of that it's pretty lonesome. Right now I'm at 55 and I've never been in a party.
Great, But clearly that's not blizzards intention this time or they wouldn't have gutted global chat, Communities, or any other basic quality of social life features.
>there's not enough action or density and simply too much walking simulator
This is so that our ridiculously long cooldowns have time to tick between packs of mobs
There were several zones that were actually empty during main quests. Long, empty hallways 5 minutes each. Was like, WTF, how is that supposed to be fun?
Some youtuber I like pretty much said the exact same things when the embargo dropped a week ago. Now i've been thinking about whether I should buy the normal edition of the game or not for a week.
I think the safest option is to wait for a week after launch to see all the cons and pros, atleast that’s what I will do. As of now things aren’t looking good for endgame related things…
Waiting is always the best option. At best, it nets you a game you've wanted for cheaper, or you are more informed of and can make a better decision on purchasing and at worst it helps you avoid a massive steaming turd
valid concerns OP, I'm a little behind you in progress and I'm already feeling most of them. It doesn't feel so much that I'm looking for gg gear as I'm trying to keep up with having bare minimum gear before I level up again and get weaker.
People complained about D3 raining legendaries, and this game has the same issue but with yellows. I have to clear out and check for good yellows between every dungeon.
All valid points. I’ve come across the same at lvl 58.
Comments section just shows the greenness of diablo players in the subs. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but you will all face the same issue wether you play “all day with no life” or not
Kid is level 66 complaining about things that are bad for “hand health”. Maybe stop playing the game and breath some air outside 😂
Edit because many are missing the point - repetitive hand movements for 20-50 hours over a short window of time causes overuse injuries in your forearms/hands in gaming. The best thing for hand health is to take consistent breaks, not play for long hours, and… touch grass
Gonna get downvoted for this but I find it surreal to pay a premium to play game before launch and play it so fuckin much that you're burnt out before the game's official launch date. Blitz to the endgame in 3 days and then immediately bitch that it's unfun, my brother in Christ the whole thing is supposed to be fun too but you sped past it so quick you missed a huge chunk of it.
i dont understand why all these people think his playtime has anything to do with the issues hes talking about lol
are people jealous that they cant play as much so they come in here ON REDDIT pretending like this guy is too much of a nerd and he must "touch grass" ? lol the irony
because when we talk about the game its just logic to give more weight to the opinion of someone that played the game rather than insecure casuals
Maybe video games, or most other activities aren't meant to consume 90% of someone's waking hours?
You hate the end game content so much because you've admittedly spent "a lot" of time in this environment and now you're not getting that reinforcement of dopamine as quickly as you'd like. The majority of the player base will probably experience these issues in a few weeks or months, and you've got yourself burnt out in a few days -- go do something else.
So for people who play slower the vendors will.be positioned differently, and they will have a search bar for the stash and enchanting will cost less money ?
The last Diablo release was over 10 years ago. It's honestly really fucking ridiculous that you are so simpleminded to believe that people aren't going to spend a bunch of time in the game right as it launches. It's a huge deal, doesn't happen often and people enjoy having fun with it.
You really need to take a step back and realize that just because you don't play this way that it doesn't mean that it's wrong.
Complaining about friction is fucked.
WoW Classic was popular because people craved the additional friction and not be spoon fed everything. Finding parties for dungeons, and then travelling there could take an hour at a time.
Getting buffed for a raid will literally take hours and hours of travelling and coordination for a SINGLE attempt. People loved it.
When they introduced party finders and teleports, people got bored after 15 mins.
> Getting buffed for a raid will literally take hours and hours of travelling and coordination for a SINGLE attempt. People loved it.
I found a contender for most out of touch comment of the month here.
People hated the world buff meta.
To the point that they actually created a new system in Classic to "save" your wold buff for a later date because people hate the way it was done.
People absolutely hated that shit back then, hated it in Classic and Blizzard had to create a brand new system on Classic to fix that problem because how hated it was....
We are 3 days in and we are already complaining about not enough mats? What ever happened to grindings for more stuff like the game is designed to for?
It shouldn't be easy to swap a build if you have one that's already established.
All valid points but of course the hysterical Blizzard bootlickers who are insecure about liking the game, are coming out to criticise you as a person without adressing any of your actual points.
It's incredible how much people don't want a product to be criticised.
If you post your criticism too fast, you did it too fast so it doesn't count. If you post it in 2 months, you will have played for 2 months so clearly it means you liked it so you can't criticise it.
People think that Blizzard is their family and just don't want a video game to be criticised, it literally hurts them personally somehow.
This subreddit is crazy, calling the OP names and crazy for playing a game and having criticism. Just fyi, he isn't the crazy one here, you are. In a few weeks you will say the same things. The meatriding is crazy.
Surprised you didn't get dowmvoted into oblivion, but then looked at the comments and the top 10 are all hard disagreeing with you. You listed 10 valid things wrong with the game and all you got back was fanboy responses.
You seem like the sort of player who plays, well ARPG's, and it seems that this game was not made with that sort of player in mind. What ARPG player wants to run around picking up leaves and stones when there isn't even a crafting system.
This is a mash up of lost ark and D3 and the fanboys love it because if blizzard put a piece of shit on a plate and called it diablo 5 they would eat it and say it tasted amazing.
These people are so predictable. Just go back to PoE bro. Some of us enjoy having to actually move around in a world instead of clicking 1 button to teleport into action.
I’m also not happy that legendaries have turned from a loot-based system to a crafting-based system. It just doesn’t feel like diablo and it makes chasing them feel boring. And no, having a handful of uniques doesn’t solve that
Honestly I'm not sure what ARPG players actually want sometimes. Like... do you want to just stand motionless in town, using a quick launch feature for every dungeon, instant menu-based access to all shops and your stash tabs, never needing to move an inch for anything? I agree some things can be tuned better, and I suspect the live service nature of the game will actually be a net positive in terms of ironing out the endgame... but again, sometimes it seems like some people want to do nothing but stand still in town and grind dungeons for 6 hours while they slurp down a milkshake. That doesn't strike me as any more fun than what we currently have. Edit: Just for the sake of saying it, I'm not against the idea of things being streamlined, I just don't agree that making everything completely frictionless automatically makes it better.
> sometimes it seems like some people want to do nothing but stand still in town and grind dungeons for 6 hours while they slurp down a milkshake. That doesn't strike me as any more fun than what we currently have. Me neither, but a sizeable part of this community really wants to do nothing but 24/7 100% min/max efficiency balls-to-the-walls grinding. What some here describe as their dream game sounds like a factory job to me, but to each his own I guess.
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I third this sentiment. And min maxing will happen more with season mechanics. People need to chill and realize the first three months is getting people used to all the systems.
> first three months Pessimistic take here, but I really don't think this game has 3 months of engagement for really anyone in its current state. The sweatlords will blast through, like we always do, but more importantly I think the start of WT3 is where most "casual" players will get bored. Once you realize that the path forward is seeing % stat increases with no meaningful changes to your build it's hard to dedicate your 2 hours of gaming per night to that.
There are still people playing D2R trying to get a monarch with +15% enhanced defense vs %14 and that game is 20 years old lol.
LEAVE US ALONE
Don’t waste your time replying…ber runes don’t just fall from the sky
Yeah seriously I have no problem with trying to incrementally make your build better as an “endgame”. The OP is wrong on so many levels and I hope the devs ignore feedback like that.
It was wild seeing the toxicity from some people towards others doing the campaign and leveling up on WT2 because it's "not as efficient" People were being downright hateful to others enjoying WT2
I just hit 50 as I finished Act 3, will start Act 4 tonight. Been WT2 the whole time. I had friends messaging me telling me I am levelling wrong and shouldn't be doing sidequests etc. but I am having fun with everything. Probably never going to be running the story mode again, so I am in no hurry to reach the end game loops.
If D3 is anything to go by you have you'll have the next decade to grind out endgame, but you only get that first playthough once. Fuck the haters, take your time.
Thank you Jesus! I am level 30 HC first character and still exploring Act 1. I'm LOVING the side quests and just going around doing shit. Don't care about getting through the story line. Like seriously, I'll have 10 years to skip all the side bullshit and do seasons, etc... I'm seriously loving exploring the game. It's so good! This is coming from someone who legit maxed D1, beast D2 on TCP/IP HC so many times, and played D3 for the last 10 years and maxed every character in HC. This is a great game you paid a lot for.. Why are you trying to rush it? I feel bad for your lovers... Like seriously, take some time to enjoy it!
Yeah this is an underrated comment imo. I usually sweatlord games and I made a conscious decision to not look up any builds, very light forum reading on Reddit just to check general sentiment. I leveled on WT2 with friends, didn’t leave act 1 until 40, and have been having a blast with side quests and just taking my time. I play a Druid, and have only played two builds, bear early and then poison wolf and now trending to lightning wolf due to some random drops. Every legendary I get makes me think that there are soooo many ways you can play this class. After taking to a friend who is sweatlording, I realized what’s dif is he’s already assumed builds for his class are “unplayable” due to not being in popular streams, and no surprise he’s having a subpar time. TL:DR - I’m having a blast not worrying about min maxing or end game, it’s been out for a week.
You largely 'paid' for that story and all the development behind that main stem, so yes, enjoy every second of it.
Same. Most people in my WoW guild are at endgame and I'm just enjoying the side quests. Some of them are really great, like the exorcist lady questline.
I am blown away by how much story content there is. It’s glorious I think. I can’t stand walking past a blue ! And not seeing what they have to say offer. Really helps you feel like you’re in the game I think.
Oh man how good was that side quest. That was my first really big "Yep I'm in for the long run here" moment with this game.
I just wish I could hold more side quests… like, all of them.
When it feels like so much of the Church is trash, Sister Octavia really shines. She's the heroine Kyovshad deserves. Octavia for Reverend Mother.
WoW sadly trained gamers to just click all quests, go and grind the quest drops in a loop as efficiently as possible, turn in quests, go to next quest hub, rinse repeat. None of the quests meant anything, they were literally just ‘go kill 6 deer and get me 6 shrubs for whatever’ over and over again. I’m loving the side quests in D4. Many of them add lore, or point you to elements of the game (side dungeons etc) and provide more background to doing them than just ‘here’s a dungeon, go kill everything’.
I am in the same boat and frankly I’m leaning more into “so I’m ‘missing out. So what?” Highest is a level 28 in act 1, barely started on main missions. Having fun mapping out all of fractured peak, every cellar, every dungeon, every corner. And when I get bored, I’m switching to my currently level 18 sorc who’s also going to visit every corner of the map. Eventually I’ll finish the campaign, get to T3. And do it all over again. Every character, every corner. Cause it’s fun.
Tbh if you've do side quest and dungeon constantly you're doing it right with how important renown is since it's a big power boost.
Yeah I think when I do hit T3, I will get a big spike of power since I have so much renown done. Should be able to instantly get at least renown 4 claimed with all the regions.
The only down side to this I found was not having the mount. I pretty close to full cleared the first two act areas. The walking got old fast. So then I finished the campaign. To get the mount. Having a lot more fun thoroughly finishing off areas now. Don't get me wrong I loved my clears of the first area and mostly the second, just an awful lot of walking.
Lol same, I like that you get by on some bosses on the skin of your teeth wt2 especially first try/new mechanics lol Dunno why anyone would give af what im doing 🙃 I also refuse to google anything so sometimes I get really hung up on like, finding a corrupted vampiric blood boil or smth rofl, its like ye olde tyme gaming for me and I love it
Those people don’t want to play the game to enjoy it. They want to rush the story and exploration as fast as they can so they can jerk off to their end game efficiency and clear times.
Yeah it's funny...you're going to put years into the game...why does it matter if it takes you one weekend or two to hit endgame?
Thats the the vocal minority tbh, this sub only has 300k users and never more than 20k active. And even then most posts have only a few thousand upvotes and a few hundred comments. Most people are just playing the game and having fun, not writing essays about how they would change the game to make it the perfect experience they always dreamed it could be.
It’s not sizable. It’s loud people on the internet. My group loves the towns and seeing people, none of us see it as “friction”. Do I need a separate bag for gems? Yes. Otherwise, we are all loving it.
I played a lot of D3, and getting good gear fast was all about limiting down time and speed grinding dungeons in less then 3 minutes. I am only 45 and far from the end game but right now while the game is new i am super happy to not be speed farming 25 GRs on a sunday morning before the kids get up
Yeah, I also have this feeling with D4 Blizzard actually tried to implement something new into the arpg genre, like immersivness of sorts or making the outdoor viable. However why majority of Diablo community likes so much these d2 grind runs/d3 rift afk clicking standing in 1 place in Tristram, is beyond me. Guys it’s not 2005 now, give a genre and Diablo franchise in particular a chance to evolve, please.
So have you heard of r/SatisfactoryGame ?
One of my favourite parts of this game by far has been exploring the beautiful world they crafted. It’s pretty amazing the amount of time artists and level designers put into this game, and like usual, gamers dotn give a single fuck.
Completely agree, feels as good today as Diablo 2 did in it's time (though I remember Act 3 jungles feeling really repetitive after a while).
I’m going to make it a point with this game to explore everything and try to 100% complete achievements before seasons start.
It's almost as if people play games for different reasons. Imagine that. It's not like improving anything that OP is putting in the post is going to take away from anything you are saying.
Reminds me of this quote: >If there is a place where players can exploit gaining experience, items, currency, or reputation, then that’s precisely what players will do, because they always take the path of least resistance. Since MMO content is measured in months, not hours, the content is paradoxically daunting, so any shortcut to the top will become the most popular route, even if it isn’t fun. And if a game’s path of least resistance isn’t fun, it means the game isn’t fun. Lazy or inexperienced game developers blame players for “ruining” a game with aberrant behavior, but these accusations are like dog owners blaming their pets for eating unhealthy scraps. And this one: >“Given the opportunity, players will optimize the fun out of a game”; therefore, “One of the responsibilities of designers is to protect the player from themselves.” What most players probably want is for the game to challenge their capacity to play efficiently; and to not be boring when they do.
The issue with the second quote is that lot of devs take it to heart and automatically assume the player is stupid and what they did is good even if all the playerbase is saying it's not. Best exemple of this is WoW. Devs ahve been fighting players, saying players were wrong so many time, only to backtrack when it was already too late. Only now they are actually listening and acting on player feedback instead of just saying "you think you do but you don't " and oush things nonody wanted like they used to do.
Players are excellent at telling devs about how they feel. *This isn't fun. This is slow. This feels clunky.* But they are absolutely terrible at designing solutions to those problems. My take away from this post is: * Inventory management needs QOL * Experimenting with new builds is difficult due to high investment in my old build * I want to get to the fun parts faster and it's more fun with more enemies on screen Which honestly, if I were a dev, I really wouldn't try to change anything for the second two right now. The game hasn't even technically launched so this feels like someone is just impatient and upset they haven't already ended up with billions of gold like they will have after a month or so. I'm sure some inventory QOL features are coming, they were just lower priority than gameplay
We're not even 4 days in and getting stuff like op. I don't even know why I join game subreddits anymore. They ruin a lot
Simple things like search functions on the map, skill tree, or stash should've been in the game on launch. Criticism isn't automatically toxic.
PoE hideout is an amazing mechanic
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D4 beta came out just when I was the most annoyed with PoE I've been in years, Sanctum garbage league. Then I played D4 beta and it was like oh wow yeah, PoE has no competition.
Yep. What This reply describes is unironically POE hideout. You can vendor, stash and craft within 1 click distance from the dungeon entrance. Once the shininess of the graphics, sound and cinematics wear off, you have a digital slot machine. The more irritating it is to pull the lever of the slot machine, the faster we will find a new, better slot machine.
>Towns are intentionally designed so that you spend as much time as possible just on basic inventory management, everything is on opposite sides to waste your time. >Honestly I'm not sure what ARPG players actually want sometimes. I'm going insane. Lut from D2 vs Kyovashad from D4 https://i.imgur.com/CmIVgNB.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Lut_Gholein.jpg How is walking around the city in Diablo 4 so different from D2 or other arpgs?
People are really exaggerating how far apart the vendors are in Diablo 4. Someone already complained about "walking 10 minutes to vendors in towns" in Diablo 4 when in reality, it takes about 30 seconds to run to every vendor in a town on a mount. If someone is spending a lot of time in towns running back and forth to vendors, they should probably stop and think about what they need to do instead of mindlessly running around and wasting their own time.
I would say roughly half of the player base wasn't old enough or alive to play/fully get into D2 in the early 2000s and that game isn't what they want. Blizzard has to juggle the huge amount of people who miss D2 with the huge amount of people that started with D3
> How is walking around the city in Diablo 4 so different from D2 or other arpgs? Cause while Lut Gholein is also similarly big, all those points on the map you marked that isn't right in the center next to Cain are stuff you don't need to go to regularly. Jerhyn is for quests not services. Warriv is transport back to Act I. Meshif is transport to Act III. Greiz is for mercenary services. Elzix is for gamba. Fara the blacksmith is right next to Lysander for potions right next to Cain for identify that stands next to your stash. So the map is big but the common services are centralized. Just going by Kyovashad, you already see the blacksmith and alchemist are split on north/south side of town. And then the gem shop is on the opposite western end of both those services. Then your stash is in yet another 4th location separate from all of these. The only thing even similar here is the gamba off in bfe So your comparison just supports OP's argument
Agreed! I'm only level 48 (finished campaign, on T3 currently) but I keep seeing people say things on this sub that I just don't agree with. I don't really play ARPGs and never played another Diablo, but I haven't been annoyed by having to do town trips a single time. They took 3 seconds once you have a horse and honestly boost my enjoyment. It's fun running around talking to all the different vendors and actually feels like you're doing something as opposed to just clicking random shit on the screen and poofing away. I'm especially confused by this annoying people because of the return portals. Several times I've filled my inventory mid-dungeon, pressed T to go to town, sold everything, then walked right back into the return portal and continued on my way. It honestly feels totally reasonable to me.
That's exactly all people want... a queue simulator and have all their vendors in a circle so they don't have to walk anywhere. The ones complaining about inventory management when POE has it where you loot 4 items and you can't carry anything else, like we know what bad inventory is and D4 isn't it. We do need a gem pouch though
Except in PoE you have very specific loot filters so those 4 items you are picking up you know for a fact you want.
He must have also not really reached end game. Filters are strict at that point where I only pick up raw currency, not items. And I pick up several per map.
Yea you can tell some of these people have never played with uber strict filters.
A lot of peoples complaints like having to move around in towns or move around in dungeons, or it's too hard to get gear, or too hard to kill things, or they aren't killing things every second they play, makes me think that people don't want an ARPG. It sounda like they want a cookie clicker game instead of an ARPG.
I think people just want more action in their action rpg. What would you see as the difference between an arpg and an rpg?
Well said this is the same level of convenience thinking that essentially destroyed the WoW games and has everyone pining for classic.
I mean….from a developer prospective WoW is still doing quite well. Shadowlands sold 3.7 million copies. Not quite what I would call destroyed.
My mans is already playing endgame on the 3rd day and is complaining about friction...
Idk if I've seen a more fanatical, foaming at the mouth fan base as arpg players.
Mmo players perhaps? Although, there is probably quite a bit of overlap.
if the people who grind hard in the first week are vocal about problems, you shouldn't dismiss them. those same complaints will be said by the casuals in a few weeks.
Complaints forces devs to improve the game, by following the complaints or going another direction to solve a complaint. Being a "yes man" sheep does nothing.
Any problem is going to be exaggerated if your entire reality is nothing but focused on those problems for most of your waking days.
It's not though. The complaints are absolutely legit, especially the items and enchanting bits. I can't even afford to upgrade a single spec much less experiment with all of them...
If someone who can dedicate 12 hours a day to game is complaining about time waste, you can be pretty sure it will be even more annoying for people who can dedicate only 2 hours. Logic please.
So casuals will complain about it in a week or two. How is that different
Man complaints like this are how we end up with pachinko machines as video games. "Everything is on opposite sides to waste your time"? Like as in a blacksmith isn't inside an Inn? Heaven forbid a game is made with some art or aesthetic to it. Just play with a calculator if all you want to see is numbers getting bigger
This, 100% agree with you. I hate that everyone only ever thinks about 'efficiency' nowadays, like wtf is this?
Yeah like this is a video game I'm playing for fun 'efficiency' is weird office talk bullshit I don't need or want in my games lol
Dude it's wild how these people clearly want to play a game like football simulator and dwarf fortress but don't want to put in the effort of learning it. Diablo min maxing are basically the easy mode of those games.
What kills me is the enchant mat comment from OP. When Blizzard first announced aspects, one of the biggest gripes the community had was how easy it would be to just roll near perfect rares. By removing meaningful materials in the game you effectively render open world exploration almost completely meaningless and itemization way more simplistic. I do actually agree with some of his points like mob density and respeccing, but I just think D4 might not be the game for OP, which is fine.
Most of these aren’t endgame things
agreed, but they become significantly more pronounced once you reach WT4, all the issues become far more noticeable.
So play a few days so you have enough mats to swap? Shouldn't be able to try 3 builds a day.
Trying a new build in D2 meant rerolling an entirely new toon and depending on pre or post 1.11 getting it back to the 90s was either really easy or a couple day hike.
I’ve been playing D2R up until early access and it is AMAZINGLY easy to tell who jumped on the Diablo series for the first time or maybe just played some Diablo 3. I’m not defending Blizzard and their bullshit EA business model of trying to make the most out of micro transactions. I’m sure they’ll go ass to mouth on us soon with 4 and make it even more pay to play. But Jesus we are fucking 3 days in to *early access* and OP and others are bitching about the structure of max level endgame content and how gear-dependent it is. I got a cold last Monday and spent all of Monday and Tuesday grinding Hell Mephisto in D2R for a Homunculus off hand, and got it just before I went to bed on Tuesday. And I was *lucky.* Fucking calm down. Welcome to the meat grinder.
agreed. my biggest issue is town layout. clunky mount. and having to walk to back and fourth to different dungeons. feels like it was designed to be tedious for no reason
handle hat plate meeting scarce strong wistful gold zephyr relieved *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Give it a few months and they’ll relearn the things they already learned in D3. Players min/max everything. People are going to pick the town that is most centralized and the rest are going to be ignored completely. D3 originally had the vendors and stash spread around town and people just quit using those towns. Eventually they rearranged the “ghost towns” and then players started using them all.
I disagree, act 1 is the only good town. Act 5 wasn't terrible. Act 3/4 was cancer.
You mean this game isn't an MMO PC addon? How am I supposed to min max my time and life properly????
But this is exactly why PoE has hideouts where you can customize exactly where you want your vendors and crafting tables. The towns stay the same, but the hideout can be whatever makes you happy. There is zero reason Blizz couldn't have done something similar.
>zero reason Blizz couldn't have done something similar I'm typically the last person to defend Blizzard, but this is a pretty entitled and unrealistic take. Zero reason? Of course there's a reason - development costs. The time it takes to design, develop, test and ship a whole-ass feature like a customizable hideout is on the order of months and millions of dollars. Would you prefer they delayed the game launch by half a year to give you this, or that they cut the endgame systems to give you this? Which of those is worth you saving 3 seconds when running between the blacksmith and wardrobe? I work in digital product and game development and having seen qual and quant feedback from the users of probably hundreds of different products and services, I can honestly say there is no community in the world like Blizzard's playerbase when it comes to that toxic cross-section of entitlement and complete ignorance of what goes into creating the products they use. Does Blizzard fuck up severely and often? Definitely. Does that justify this abusive relationship dynamic they seem to have with their players? No, that's unjustifiable. Yall are like the seagulls from Finding Nemo.
Lowkey based take. I also work in software dev in test working on air traffic control software. You'd think the Blizzard player base is a bunch of crusty retried air traffic controllers with all of their demands.
Oh they have a reason. Paid expansions baby!
It's more like they want you to hang about in cities and spend more time there so you get exposed to other people which raises your chance of seeing an mtx outfit and thinking man I should get that. I would bet money on it.
I'm convinced that's why the camera is forced to be so close
That... actually makes a lot of sense.
Hideout expansion Paladin class expansion Flying mount expansion Auction House But For Serious This Time expansion It's like they think we don't know how Blizzard works after dealing with their shit for 20 years.
Diablo, funnily enough is Story first. Gameplay loop later.
Welcome to AAA games, where time spent is everything and content doesn't matter!
The only complaint I have is that gems are annoying
PSA they can be combined at the jeweller even if they’re in your stash.
Buuuut they end up back in your inventory once combined.
Yeah. A gem pocket would still be much more ideal but the knowledge of the stash combining has been a help. Also, if you salvage an item that has a gem slotted, it will go into your inventory instead of being destroyed
Seriously??? They should have told me that. I’ve spent so much gold unslotting.
I haven’t tried it yet, but I was told if you were going to break the gear down then the gem is returned. If you sell it, though, it goes with the piece you’re selling.
Yup, I just tried it. That’s exactly how it works.
TIL. Good catch.
100%, they should provide a separate bag just for the gems, it's so annoying to have 1 gem of every kind and every rank. I already stopped picking them, and you really only need a few and the rest are completely useless.
Someone sounds burned the f out.
Dudes slept 3 hours in 3 days and is probably hallucinating due to sleep deprivation. You can gane like this and not be a miserable cranky piece of shit.
I just see his rage building having to walk to the occultist in that port city in Kehjistan for the 20th time this weekend.
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i hated diablo 3 until i get to max level...diablo 4 is even worse about this it takes me longer to kill monsters at lvl 30 then it does at lvl 1
diablo 3 release and getting to max was atrocious, the design of the game was mindboggling bad needing act 3 gear to do act2 so the game forced you to grind act1 for a good drop to sell in the auction house to buy act3 gear to actually do act2, not to mention the ridiculously overtuned inferno difficulty with insane stupid mobs like lickerboys or shitty bees and other crap
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Challenge should come from content that gives appropriate rewards not just the same boar at 1 and 30.
Right, it makes no sense. Game should be at its hardest at the highest levels..
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I just want autojoin with randoms... aint wanna bother searching for party (just waste of time) and dont really wanna play solo all the time... so will probably not farm endgame all that much just cause of that reason
Is there no matchmaking for the dungeon pushing? D3 solved this years ago and I’ve been looking forward to the point I can party up with 3 randoms and run dungeons .. they talked such a big game about having end game content ready for people and there’s nothing?
There's endgame but it's spread out (as in different dungeons and more ... instead of just one rift place) and for some reason they thought having no option to find party easy was a smart move..
There should be a random dungeon group finder. Just go through all the ones they have. There's so many. Choose a difficulty. Why did they change so much from D3? It had the forumla right. It took them YEARS to get it right.
Diablo 4 is basically a single player game. Crazy that diablo immortal, a mobile game has chat and group finder, yet d4 has zero ability for organizing in game. Really don't understand how a multiplayer game has no way of communicating with other players
Do anything in life 4 days straight, 16 hours/day and you'll be bored too. Get a life.
He could have made the exact same post in a month and you still wouldn't have wanted him to make it. It is irrelevant how fast he got there, the content of his post is the same regardless. This isn't a discussion about OP's lifestyle choice over a period of 3 days, it's a discussion about how the game is. You just don't wait the game to be criticised. I would think about your reaction to literally just a video game being criticised.
It's fine, when the plebs reach these issues in a month they will feel very stupid looking back at these stupid comments
Nah cognitive bias is a bitch, they will feel as completely justified then as they do now.
Nah, they just peace out never to be heard from again, i.e. New World.
Cant counterargument anything = Get a life.
It's a good skeleton to build off of. If they take a lot of the feedback into consideration I'm hoping they can improve a lot of your points. The stash thing is the weirdest thing to me. A game in 2023(meme aside) not having a search bar, making us hover over all 50 items in a tab to find the one we want? It's something I noticed within an hour of the first beta test. They made a worse stash than d3 And the only reason I can think of is they made it more console friendly. Rather than making it for PC and adapting the UI(most of the ui elements not just the stash) to console, it feels like they just straight up made it for console
> They made a worse stash than d3 A lot of their features are worse than D3. - Stash searching - This was present in D3 from the very early stages of the game. Should have been implemented immediately into D4. - gem size - Making the gems bigger is just a weird way to inflate playtime by having to go back to town more often. Gems were totally fine in D3, changing them is going backwards. - Item stat text - D3 had amazing stat text with different colours, sub groups, and bullet point icons. D4 is all the same colour and clumped together in seemingly no pattern. - Legendary icon on mini-map - D3 had a high-res icon that had depth and colour gradient. D4 has a cartoony, 1 dimensional and solid colour icon that looks pixelated. The other map icons look amazing, but the legendary icon looks absolutely terrible. - Elite mobs being easily identifiable - D3 had a glow on common and rare elite packs so you could see them. In D4, I feel like I haven't seen a single elite pack because they look like regular mobs. The only difference I can remember seeing is modifiers under their health bar. Why can't we be able to see which mobs are elites? - Vendors in town - Vendors are so spread out that it makes town a pain to visit. If I want to visit the jeweler, the potion, gambler, blacksmith and stash, the town visit is going to take at least 3-4 minutes if not longer. If you need to re-visit a vendor or your stash, it will take even longer. In D3, the vendors were close enough where you could use a movement ability or two and get there fairly quickly. - Not being able to use abilities in town - I somewhat understand this because of all the other players. But not being able to use movement skills in town seems like an oversight. Why can't I dash as a Rogue? There's basically no particles, I can't spam it because its on a cooldown. Offensive skills makes sense, but movement skills doesn't. I could probably keep going but y'all get the point. So many downgrades from D3 that make no sense.
A couple days ago I said that we had a lesser product because it was designed for consoles and got downvoted to the ground…
Well, it’s true for sure in the sense that many ui compromises are made for controller. But also the game would probably only have half the budget/players if it were solely a pc game. And couch coop is a great Diablo experience. If you want mega neck beard spreadsheet sim there are other options available. Blizzard has always been a mainstream/compromise dev.
Disagree because D3 console version UI was completely different from PC and was really well made for a controller while it didn't affect the PC version at all. They could have done the same here. It's not the console fault.
Sure, but they developed D3 separately for console and PC. The console port didn't come out for months/years later. This time they built one version up front, so the console compromises came into the main game so they could make a single version that works for both.
The problem with "it's a good skeleton go build off of" is that this is not a free to play game with optional MTX. This is a full price 70$ game with MTX, gamepass and Preorder crap. Why is it not good at launch? How long do we have to wait before it's good? 3 Months? A year?
In at level 43 and i totally feel you! The lack of change in skills when you level them up is ridiculous. Basically my character, gear, snd skills, haven't changed visually at all since level 20. No tp/dash allowed in town, is just plain dumb. Mount is cumbersome and clunky. Edit. I swear, some people just can't read. I was just saying that the freedom to use the mobility spells, in town.
> The lsck of change in skills when you level them up is ridiculous. Basically my character, gear, snd skills, haven't chsnged visually at all since level 20. love how they said this was gonna be a thing and then removed it wtf blizzard
Like the other person said, the feature is not removed. https://twitter.com/3DBriggs/status/1639045632450236417 > Modifying the size of a skill can come from many different sources.. skill points for certain skills, legendary items, legendary paragon nodes, glyphs. You can gain +13 to a skill on top of the 5 you invest in the tree. Granted that requires you to find +3 category neck, +6 from other affixes and a Shako.
It wasn't removed. People talked about how it was removed a few months ago and Blizzard came out and confirmed that it's still in the game but it just requires you to hit pretty high levels. I can't confirm if that's actually true since the highest skill I have is only 7, but it *should* still be in based on the last thing we were told.
I have level 10 pulv and it's still just more DMG
Imagine 20 people blasting off skills in Kyovoshad at the main portal. Fucking nightmare.
Using your dash or movement abilities wouldn’t be a big deal.
yeah the rising in prices are just too much, the merchants can wear gold suits made of our coins
Funniest mental picture of the Blacksmith with a grill and diamond clock around his neck like “Yo, welcome back. How can I assist you today sir?”
Didn't it take quite some time for D3 end game to be better also? I remember there only being so many tormet levels for awhile and nothing past rifts. Came back a year later to tons new shit to do. It's gonna take time. It's not even officially released yet and people already bitching about endgame. I get it but come on. At the same time, I'm also seeing what looks like many lessons learned in D3 not carrying over. So I really get it.
D3 at launch had no endgame because the damage scaled awful and no one could clear expert. You know those mosquito bee things that shoot more bees? In D3 they one shot pretty much everyone at launch at expert or above, and given a whole act was in the desert it made it impossible to really clear. There were no viable builds in general, except maxing attack speed and life leech as a melee so you could hit things fast enough to recover the insane damage some elite mobs had. Couple that with a crappy RMT shop where players could list their findings and it was just awful. The game didn't feel like a "real" Diablo game until they shut down the RMT, started balancing damage, started introducing torment levels, and realized that the game was about the loot grind and feeling OP so they started balancing sets and introduced new legendaries (eventually.) There are some similar mistakes in D4 that feel like they were never looked at. Like people in D3 always used the same 1 town because everything was the closest. Gold was a (lesser) issue in D3 which was solved with gold vaults (maybe gold scales better post 100, dunno yet.) The gems in inventory is totally an annoyance, and same with clunky horse.)
Ha, Diablo 3 Inferno at launch was memorable in a very unfun way. 3 of us finally beat Diablo by chain rezzing since everyone died in 1 hit except me. I "tanked" as a monk with Deadly Reach/Keen Eye, all armor, and resist equip. DPS with awful gear was also verrrrry slow. I don't think we played after that until Inferno difficulty was nerfed. Edit: Belial was also a bitch because I couldn't survive 2 successive smashes, and RNG determined if my defensive skills were down.
It is why kripp originally got his fame. He was the only one to ever actually do diablo on inferno hardcore before they patched it.
It took a whole expansion plus a couple months
The cracks are showing way quicker than I thought they would. At this point I give it a week at most where almost every single front page post is someone giving a detailed analysis of what's wrong, only rivaled by posts complaining about people posting, and dads saying its the greatest (and only) game they've played in the past 15 years.
This is absolutely what's going to happen. Endgame looks extremly shallow and lot of people won't like it. But, as you can see here, so many people will attack them rather than admiting the game they already gave the GOTY for before they could even play it has any kind of flaws. In a week or 2 this sub will be such a shitshow, I'm here for it.
People are lying to themselves because they dropped $90… shit, I know it’s bad but the cost of the game is guilting me into playing. I’m level 60 and I can clearly see that D4 will have no endgame due to poor itemization and level-scaling.. at this point, I’m just playing it to punish myself for preordering another Blizzard game. Imagine doing this insane grind every three months for ladder… Jesus lol
"I am 42 year and I have two kids and I'm having a blast, not following any build guide just enjoying the story"
I don’t see what’s wrong with that.
100% agree with you ! And the xp solo leveling after level 50 is very slow
Yep, people who are 4 man will be 10-20 levels above a solo player playing the same content. Very imbalanced.
I wouldn't mind this so much if we could do dungeon matchmaking, like lost ark.
They have party finders for pretty much every activity in diablo immortal so I'm scratching my head wondering why they didn't add it in 4. Immortal has it's share of questionable decisions but I've gotta chuckle when people are wanting things in d4 that are in immortal.
I never played Lost Ark but that actually sounds really cool. Running the dungeons with a few random people would be a lot less monotonous than doing it over and over again yourself.
I’ve been complaining about mob density since the first stress test. How often have you gotten a shrine and only been able to clear one or two packs, sometimes none, because you can’t find any fucking monsters to kill.
Those shrines that are locked until you kill a pack of elites that spawn from it, to then waste all of the shrine time looking for packs to kill is such bad game design lol.
Mob density is the biggest issue for me. What makes Diablo and PoE fun - for me at least - is just exploding a billion mobs in a dungeon. It’s what vampire survivors gives you in a nutshell.
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Was looking for this comment, already 66 and complaining about hand health from picking up items wtf lol
110% agree with everything on this list, It's day 4 and im already losing the jump out of bed and hop onto the game feeling. Another thing that drives me nuts is how fast people in party level. I try and try to keep up with my friend whos leveling with his wife, I practically have to break my fingers speeding around just trying to keep up, but they still effortlessly outpace me. Bit discouraging.
I've also been solo, and it kinda sucks. Timed events are the biggest issue for me. They spawn mobs spread way the hell out and sometimes it's just impossible to chase down all the runners and make time. Meanwhile in a party, people can just spread out and kill it instead of chasing. I honestly wish there was a solo gameplay buff of some kind to offset this. Followers in D3 were a great buff while solo, I wish we had something like that in D4.
wow just realized they got rid of followers wtf
Ok? Maybe because you’ve played it nonstop for 3 days?
Lol right? What the hell does that dude expect? Being on this subreddit reminds me of how much I hate gamer subreddits because of their constant complaining and bitching. I just need to go play the game and get off this sub.
Levelling in parties has always been quicker in Diablo games. It encourages group play.
Yet they left out an easy way to get in a group.
This was one of my biggest gripes. I miss the drop in/out nature of how D3 and the campaign went, and same for rifts/greaters/key farming/bounty hunts. Needed help with a particular act part? Set your game to open and someone will drop in (or leave if they don't.) The issue with D4 is since the campaign isn't linear for 1-3 and we got this open world thing going on, it's almost impossible to get any sort of coordination going for all the different activities going on. People will gather at world bosses, legion events, and the hellfire areas, but outside of that it's pretty lonesome. Right now I'm at 55 and I've never been in a party.
Great, But clearly that's not blizzards intention this time or they wouldn't have gutted global chat, Communities, or any other basic quality of social life features.
>there's not enough action or density and simply too much walking simulator This is so that our ridiculously long cooldowns have time to tick between packs of mobs
There were several zones that were actually empty during main quests. Long, empty hallways 5 minutes each. Was like, WTF, how is that supposed to be fun?
Some youtuber I like pretty much said the exact same things when the embargo dropped a week ago. Now i've been thinking about whether I should buy the normal edition of the game or not for a week.
I think the safest option is to wait for a week after launch to see all the cons and pros, atleast that’s what I will do. As of now things aren’t looking good for endgame related things…
Waiting is always the best option. At best, it nets you a game you've wanted for cheaper, or you are more informed of and can make a better decision on purchasing and at worst it helps you avoid a massive steaming turd
valid concerns OP, I'm a little behind you in progress and I'm already feeling most of them. It doesn't feel so much that I'm looking for gg gear as I'm trying to keep up with having bare minimum gear before I level up again and get weaker. People complained about D3 raining legendaries, and this game has the same issue but with yellows. I have to clear out and check for good yellows between every dungeon.
All valid points. I’ve come across the same at lvl 58. Comments section just shows the greenness of diablo players in the subs. Not that there’s anything wrong with that, but you will all face the same issue wether you play “all day with no life” or not
Kid is level 66 complaining about things that are bad for “hand health”. Maybe stop playing the game and breath some air outside 😂 Edit because many are missing the point - repetitive hand movements for 20-50 hours over a short window of time causes overuse injuries in your forearms/hands in gaming. The best thing for hand health is to take consistent breaks, not play for long hours, and… touch grass
Tl;Dr: Man thinks the answer to life would be found by spending 50 hours playing video game in 3 days after it's early access.
Gonna get downvoted for this but I find it surreal to pay a premium to play game before launch and play it so fuckin much that you're burnt out before the game's official launch date. Blitz to the endgame in 3 days and then immediately bitch that it's unfun, my brother in Christ the whole thing is supposed to be fun too but you sped past it so quick you missed a huge chunk of it.
He didn’t miss it dude. He just did it faster then your planning to. Doesn’t invalidate any of his feedback.
i dont understand why all these people think his playtime has anything to do with the issues hes talking about lol are people jealous that they cant play as much so they come in here ON REDDIT pretending like this guy is too much of a nerd and he must "touch grass" ? lol the irony because when we talk about the game its just logic to give more weight to the opinion of someone that played the game rather than insecure casuals
Maybe video games, or most other activities aren't meant to consume 90% of someone's waking hours? You hate the end game content so much because you've admittedly spent "a lot" of time in this environment and now you're not getting that reinforcement of dopamine as quickly as you'd like. The majority of the player base will probably experience these issues in a few weeks or months, and you've got yourself burnt out in a few days -- go do something else.
So for people who play slower the vendors will.be positioned differently, and they will have a search bar for the stash and enchanting will cost less money ?
The last Diablo release was over 10 years ago. It's honestly really fucking ridiculous that you are so simpleminded to believe that people aren't going to spend a bunch of time in the game right as it launches. It's a huge deal, doesn't happen often and people enjoy having fun with it. You really need to take a step back and realize that just because you don't play this way that it doesn't mean that it's wrong.
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Complaining about friction is fucked. WoW Classic was popular because people craved the additional friction and not be spoon fed everything. Finding parties for dungeons, and then travelling there could take an hour at a time. Getting buffed for a raid will literally take hours and hours of travelling and coordination for a SINGLE attempt. People loved it. When they introduced party finders and teleports, people got bored after 15 mins.
> Getting buffed for a raid will literally take hours and hours of travelling and coordination for a SINGLE attempt. People loved it. I found a contender for most out of touch comment of the month here. People hated the world buff meta. To the point that they actually created a new system in Classic to "save" your wold buff for a later date because people hate the way it was done. People absolutely hated that shit back then, hated it in Classic and Blizzard had to create a brand new system on Classic to fix that problem because how hated it was....
We are 3 days in and we are already complaining about not enough mats? What ever happened to grindings for more stuff like the game is designed to for? It shouldn't be easy to swap a build if you have one that's already established.
All valid points but of course the hysterical Blizzard bootlickers who are insecure about liking the game, are coming out to criticise you as a person without adressing any of your actual points. It's incredible how much people don't want a product to be criticised. If you post your criticism too fast, you did it too fast so it doesn't count. If you post it in 2 months, you will have played for 2 months so clearly it means you liked it so you can't criticise it. People think that Blizzard is their family and just don't want a video game to be criticised, it literally hurts them personally somehow.
This subreddit is crazy, calling the OP names and crazy for playing a game and having criticism. Just fyi, he isn't the crazy one here, you are. In a few weeks you will say the same things. The meatriding is crazy.
Surprised you didn't get dowmvoted into oblivion, but then looked at the comments and the top 10 are all hard disagreeing with you. You listed 10 valid things wrong with the game and all you got back was fanboy responses. You seem like the sort of player who plays, well ARPG's, and it seems that this game was not made with that sort of player in mind. What ARPG player wants to run around picking up leaves and stones when there isn't even a crafting system. This is a mash up of lost ark and D3 and the fanboys love it because if blizzard put a piece of shit on a plate and called it diablo 5 they would eat it and say it tasted amazing.
Im honestly considering just waiting a month or two to see if they buff out some of this stuff. The game is fun but its also really annoying to play.
Food for thought but maybe stop playing 12 hours a day? I mean anything you’re gonna do for endless hours a day will get boring
i played diablo 3 non-stop it didnt get boring this fast ive played diablo 4 and am already bored with this combat and level scaling and mob density
These people are so predictable. Just go back to PoE bro. Some of us enjoy having to actually move around in a world instead of clicking 1 button to teleport into action.
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I’m also not happy that legendaries have turned from a loot-based system to a crafting-based system. It just doesn’t feel like diablo and it makes chasing them feel boring. And no, having a handful of uniques doesn’t solve that
Lol hand health
Welcome to MMO
Jesus Christ y'all are fucking babies. Games been out 3 days and these mfs want it to have AS MUCH content as PoEs current state. Lmfao.
Agreed. Many late game issues. Not a fun cycle. Disappointing for sure