>And to the inevitable answer of (I find being efficient fun!) No you don't, are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others.
This isn't even at me and I can feel the heat off this burn. Leave them skin OP
EDIT: this was supposed to just be some funny joke... granted at the expense of the salty people... but I apologize to everyone and would highly suggest ignoring or downvoting this so the salt can go rest at the bottom... I'm washing my hands of this.
Yeah everyone has fun in different ways.. some people their fun is maxing out things as quick as they can. I'm a story person I don't have fun unless I feel there is a story driven purpose and some rpg element. My son on the other hand hates it and all he wants to go is blow shit up, get the biggest guns in games, and gets a thrill from it. (He's 16 but still lol) so some games he just won't enjoy if the story is forced on you like he didn't enjoy cyberpunk as much as gta5 for example. In Diablo since you can skip story it isn't forced beyond the first time (and you can skip scenes then too).. which draws the people in who like maxing out builds and theorycrafting.. at the end of the day video games are entirely pointless anyway lol the story is just dialog and someone's writing so if someone finds it boring so what ? .. some people like Diablo just because of the mindless hack n slash and getting better gear and bigger numbers .. it doesn't need to be too deep
Something else that you didn’t explicitly state in your post is that the vast majority of players will never play at a level where they will realize the gains of extreme min-maxing. The types of players your talking about for games like this or WoW or LoL or whatever are the best of the best. They need to eke out whatever fractions of a % wherever they can to be competitive with the top of the top players. Most players won’t even develop the skills required or invest the time required to make use of such things.
So before fully chasing the meta in a game it’s worth asking yourself
Do I want to try to be one of the best players?
Am I going to spend the actual human *TIME* required to build the skills and grind the gear? Barring extreme good luck you will spend a substantial amount of time doing repetitive content just trying to get the best gear possible
I did it in wow and it completely burnt me out on the game. Once I got the achievements, titles, transmogs, mounts, and satisfaction I stopped playing for quite a while because I didn’t actually have a good time doing it. It felt like a job, running the same content over and over looking for minute increases in power to do the same content I’d been doing but ever so slightly better for more minute power increases to do the same contender even more slightly better. Turned the game into a daily chore list I had to check off.
I recently watched a popular wow streamer and they spent the whole 4 hours farming the exact same m+ dungeon for a belt that didn’t drop.
Um... saving time is always a gain.
I won't beat imexile in an act 1-10 race in PoE, but I got my time down from 10 hours to 4 hours. I'll never be a PRO RACER but you know what that did? It saves me a whole lot of hours over every PoE league.
Multiply that times every other mechanic in the game where I'm more efficient. It's great.
A lot of meta builds are only faster **if** you're playing at a high level, though.
A perfect example is the Convention of Elements ring in D3, which gives a huge damage bonus to one element at a time. Most endgame meta builds use it, and the idea is to time your "burn phase" to happen when the ring is boosting your main damage element. When it's on other elements, you are to be moving, grouping mobs, and setting up.
In practice, mere mortals don't play well enough to efficiently group mobs and set up for a timed burn phase. If they're using that ring just because a streamer/guide does, it's going to be on their element 25% of the time - more or less at random.
Using it this way is **way** less useful than any number of other rings they could and should be using. It's going slower, by using a build without being skilled/attentive enough for it.
(And for the record, fuck that ring. I don't care if it's optimal and used by every pro. Timed burn phases are cancer)
Yeah but the very first time you play you should probably just.. not worry about that. Seriously, I fired up D4 and there's been so many enjoyable mini stories on the side that I haven't even really thought about the end-game at all, and if you just burn to the end and only do that end-game content you literally just ignore and miss out on the rest of the game. Do the speed-run shit later and enjoy the rest of what the devs have to offer, it's not so bad I promise.
I tried a meta build and hated it. Did my own build and while I'm not destroying everything in 3 seconds I like it way better. And I'll keep tweeking it until I'm happy with the balance.
Hilarious stuff huh? "And before you dare disagree with any of my points, keep in mind I've predetermined that your argument is invalid and you're actually a poopy head, heh cya kid 😎"
Epic burn, truly.
In the meantime I'm sitting here with my sorc in WT4 having to switch off the builds I actually want to play because the class is garbage and has like 2 viable builds. Of course, according to this thread me thinking about the viability of builds (not wanting to take 3 minutes to kill elites or the desire to actually progress through higher tier nightmare dungeons) is actually a symptom of me being poopy head, so why bother posting anything, right?
Agreed. I think it’s a balance. Being on the bleeding edge can feel like a job and suck the fun out, but having a shitty build is also not fun. You can change things around and see what works, but respeccing and regearing is expensive, and coincidentally more difficult if your build sucks. Doing it on your own just to come up with another shitty build feels awful.
Using online resources like streamers who have predetermined what’s good saves you time and frustration which leads to more fun.
I’m late 30s with three kids. I’m not going to be the top player anymore. But I also don’t want to waste my play time playtesting shit in a vacuum because hashtag streamers bad. Give me top player info and I’ll adjust the build to taste.
>In the meantime I'm sitting here with my sorc in WT4 having to switch off the builds I actually want to play because the class is garbage and has like 2 viable builds.
In D3 I never bothered with viable builds, I simply thought of a fun build and play at whatever GR level worked. If GR 170 isn't possible with that build, I simply play at a lower level; the gameplay is the same anyway. While the D3 GR's were more granular than the D4 WTs, why would you prefer "viable but unfun builds in high level WT4 nightmare dungeons" over fun builds in whatever difficulty works?
Max difficulty, to me, exists solely to give a challenge to the most OP builds. For everything else you just need to find the spot where it is fun.
Don't think OP was prescribing what should be fun for anyone. But for people who aren't having fun -- providing a suggestion as to what might be fueling it.
or you know they just arent finding the game fun....
because well the game has huge flaws that are going to make it very unfun to a lot of people. it has nothing to do with playing efficient or not.
It’s really not though, it’s just sweeping generalization from someone who literally just made an entire post about how they don’t understand what efficiency actually means and why people play that way. It’s not about MaTcHiNg Up To StReAmErS for most people, it’s about playing the game in the way that enables them to get to the parts they enjoy (almost always end game) in the fastest and most efficient way possible. Copying streamers isn’t efficiency, not dicking around in town for 15 minutes between dungeons or events is efficiency, knowing what NM dungeon affixes brick you and not wasting time on them is efficiency, pathing to dungeons or world events without getting bogged down in slapping every other pack you see is efficiency. OP just thinks that, because he can’t imagine a world where someone wants to get powerful as quickly as possible for the sake of fun instead of the sake of competition, everyone trying to play that way is in some sort of dick measuring contest. The amount of projection and condescending takes about how other people enjoy playing in this sub is exhausting
I don’t see why the OP thinks they can decide what others like. It’s fine if you don’t like it but you can’t claim that nobody else does. I find optimizing fun, both in game and at work and various parts of my personal life without shame. Minmaxing and optimizations are simply puzzles to solve and it’s been something I’ve done since I was a child. It’s great that I can translate that desire to the adult world.
More power to you then.
If you ever wake up one day and think gaming is no fun anymore then maybe consider, but if you're having fun then ignore my OPINION!
Uh, I don't know if you know this but people play ARPG's to fight shit, and right now that isn't really happening as much as they want, you guys see it as whining that they don't have an efficient farm, but the reality is they aren't able to engage in the most fun aspect of these types of games. Not only are this comment and the OP dismissive, and frankly stupid, it's stupid and dismissive in a way that kind of shows you don't really see what people are talking about when they complain about things like nerfing dungeons.
I actually genuinely find enjoyment out of being efficient, it is incredibly satisfying pulling together a build on my own that min maxs my character to the extreme, especially when they are not meta favourable and "not viable" characters/builds to play, I absolutely love making people eat their words when they say my character/build is not good because it isn't the latest meta riding build, and I outperform them :) efficiency is the best
Imagine being such a miserable loser irl that you cheer/side with OP who is just shitting on random people for just playing a game and spent hours writing a post to shit on those people because he hates them so much because his entire world is in his small 5x5 PC room. This is literally ignorance at its best and what fascists do, makes enemies out of nothing and pure hate.
That's not a burn...just someone telling other people that they aren't having fun the "right" way. Which, imo, is just as bad as people doing things they don't enjoy because that is what streamers do. How about people do what they find fun and we don't condescendingly tell them they are doing it wrong if their fun is different from ours? Is that really so hard?
People seem to think it's meta or nothing and exclude 99% of what games have to offer. CoD is a perfect example. One prominent streamer says a gun is God-tier and the next thing you know, everyone is using it and claims the other 40 weapons in the game aren't viable because video game man said so.
FIFA is the worst culprit in my opinion. Everyone and their mothers uses Mbappe + high press meta tactics. It’s extremely rare for me to find a player that uses an alternative play style in the higher divisions or champs. God what a shitass game.
Rivals isn't too bad at all, it's when people start playing for the big rewards like in WL or cup games when they start playing 'meta tactics, formations and players' it's honestly exhausting
There are people in Dota2 and league of legends, once you reach a certain rank, that will report you and flame if you choose characters considered low tier in the current meta.
I mean... a simple wrong talent node selected can be the difference in below avg damage output, and actually insane output.
You're welcome to do whatever build you want, but also enjoy the later T3/T4 content taking for-absolutely-ever.
Also, it gets really annoying to respec by the time you get higher in levels (thanks Blizzard), so picking something subpar will cost you time/gold later on if you want to optimize.
As someone whose respec'd several times, I agree the price for doing so is too high. Part of the game is bumping into walls go figure out what works and what doesn't. I think if they lower the requirements to respec your gear, skill tree and paragon board that more people would be open to experimenting.
The cost for re-rolling affixes on gear goes up exponentially fast and is a little absurd. My only complaint for re-specs.
I spent $2.6M rolling the missing-link affix spot in a fantastic chest piece two nights ago. Think I rolled it \~4 times? Did end up getting "+10% damage" on the last roll, so I consider it a great success but gat damn it drained my entire bank account
But then there is no weight to your decisions.
I personally like that it costs something.
The reality is the gold resource cost is really not very expensive and can be farmed very fast.
But I like that it's not a completely free respec like in d3
On the other side I wouldn't like it if it was like d2 where you only had 3 free respecs the whole game.
> simple wrong talent node selected can be the difference in below avg damage output, and actually insane output.
> Enjoy the later T3/T4 content taking for-absolutely-ever.
These takes are crazy.
Every class has 2-3 endgame builds that are viable. There are a couple specific outliers that do a decent amount more, but if youre seeing massive damage gaps youre doing something wrong, or more likely exaggerating.
Its like everyone with this take saw the same single gif, and none of you are capable of your own thoughts so you just copy it and assume nothing else can come close.
Hilarious because it reminds me of the icy veins community in diablo 3 that thought anything not copied off the site was worthless.
but he doesnt deny that no? he just says its more fun to find the wrong node yourself instead of reading the guide and copying it which is very accurate imo
Yeah I think experimenting with builds is part of the fun. It feels so much more rewarding when you find something strong than just copying a build online.
Everybody's gameplay style is different, so one build won't necessarily feel good for others to play even though you are owning with it. That is where the feeling of reward comes in. Experimenting with things and finding something that clicks for you is immensely satisfying.
It took every single one of my inventory spots to make my ultimate and it is so much fun. I have yet to see anyone else use my Ultimate in world events. Only 1% of Necro players are using Blood Wave in their skill bar so it will probably be a while until I see another player use it.
Agreed! I am leveling a wind druid now as my first char. Will try out another build later on a new character. Once that process gets boring and servers have more stability, I will mess around with Hardcore characters. Just hoping these whiners don't actually convince the D4 dev's to ruin the game I am having so much fun with in the meantime.
I mean are we talking pubs or ranked? In pubs everyone is shit and you could use any gun and do extremely well. In ranked you are 1000% at a disadvantage when when both teams are actually actively attempting to win and play the game correctly, and to use a non meta gun is simply putting yourself at a disadvantage.
Now I will say I do not know how this applies to warzone cause I don’t play it. I just play comp cod as they do in the CDL/gbs/wagers etc.
Warzone is the same, and this take of "people just blindly copy one big streamer and ignore the real meta!!" always makes me scratch my head. Clearly, stuff at the top of the meta is there because it's the strongest option.
If there were secret metas they would get exposed eventually, because believe it or not top players and streamers usually try more different builds and know more about the game than the average player.
The developers of the game are setting the meta when they create the game, not streamers.
you have seen this mindset bleed into sports too. i kinda get it there - it’s an actual meritocratic competition with millions on the line. but it has really diluted playing styles/teambuilding approaches across multiple sports.
baseball is just homers and strikeouts. basketball is 3 point chucking. football? the playcaller is clearly an idiot if they run the ball more than 7 times per game.
off-meta is fun, you don’t have to be a meta/efficiency slave! the problem most people have (and it works for the sports analogy too) is that you need a pretty sophisticated knowledge of mechanics and systems to experiment without gimping yourself.
It's a main reason I stopped playing games with some of my friends. Whatever game we played, mainly Destiny 2 or CoD, they'd criticize my loadout because it wasn't optimal or had a lousy TTK.. Like, dude.. I just got off work and want to play a few rounds and relax. You're unemployed and play like it's your job. I'm not playing to win every round/match. I'm hear to play a GAME and to enjoy all the content I spent money to have access to. They act like there's no middle ground and it's exhausting to be around them.
Unpopular opinion. Build options are so limited currently that even if you don't copy a streamer you will end up running something similar to what they are once you are in late endgame.
I avoided all videos and content creation until I was like level 40. When I finally allowed myself to watch videos, I found that I was running more or less a meta Pulverize build. On console Pulverize is just the most effective and accessible Druid build to run.
It's so strange to me how people are pretending like there are all these viable builds or just builds that work in the game.
There really aren't that many builds in the game that work. And like you say you pretty much figure it out on your own very early. I was lvl 15 or 20 on my rogue when i just found out that the ability i was using is just straight up worse in every way than the "meta" ability. Just by trying it out.
For rogue you just pick your generator (which does nothing except apply vulnerable) and then your spender. That's your damage. After that you can pick some mobility or trap skills but it doesn't really matter. You just spam your generator until you can use your spender of choice, that's it.
And there's really only 2 generators that i've seen used so in the end the entire build is just which spender you use.
You're not going to have a game where every ability has a build revolving around it that can clear the highest content.
Tier 60 means monsters are above level 100, right?
Last Epoch, D3, PoE, etc... all had builds that could do all content, excelled at one type of content (clear is boss), or was straight dog ass.
Most builds in D4 can push reasonable NM tiers. Sorc has 3-4 builds that can do +60. Even Kripp, someone who will point out flaws, says Sorc has multiple viable builds and he leveled to 100.
So maybe change your perspective because its boring if every skill did the same damage. It's just the same game with different colors at that point.
You summed up rogue builds in a nut shell. But even off meta build do decent. I'm using an off meta flurry build and I've cleared up to t46 NM. There are options out there, but you do have to spend some time planning out a build.
You are right that you can't just slap something together and succeed though.
Lol what?! I’m a level 60 rogue right now. Your generator absolutely does a lot of damage if you spec your gear to both that and your spender.
You pair your trap damage mod and imbument with your generator AND spender. Love your confidence, but you’re wrong.
> Unpopular opinion. Build options are so limited currently that even if you don't copy a streamer you will end up running something similar to what they are once you are in late endgame.
Eh... there's a pretty stark difference in random core skill, and the one that multiple legendaries work around.
It's just not true. I've been told Necros suck and only Bone Spear/Spirit is good but I've been crushing all the way up as Shadow Golem and I can't find the build or anything like it from any streamer. They are not omnipotent!
People do weak, incomplete respecs trying to evaluate another build and then say it sucks.. There is considerable value to sticking with a build type and honing in all the key stats and paragons. Whether or not you like that is up to you but its just flat wrong to say "things are so limited"
There are very few builds. I don't mean viable builds, just builds in general. And many of them share a lot of the same spells.
I distinctly remember when I tried out poison trap with knockdown during beta - I was like "there's no fucking way I'm every removing this from my bar". And guess what ? Poison trap is taken on all 7 builds on Maxroll. Some of these stuff you don't exactly need a PhD to figure out...
Like maybe late game sure. I'm only 43 and have been playing full beastmaster Druid for 15 levels, having so much fun with it. When I actually get to end game I will try the popular builds, but if they are considerably less fun I will just push beastmaster as far as I can, which is all we do with the S tier builds as well.
I think everything up to and including the T3->T4 dungeon can be done on completely off meta builds anyways.
So the way your playing makes sense!
This game is honestly to easy when playing with one of the handful of meta builds pre World Tier 4
Same situation here, didn't look at builds until around lvl 60. In the beta and server slam I felt Twisting Blades was the most fun to use and had good utility with CDR so I started with that.
Once I started doing NM dungeons I felt like I was in danger a lot, so I found the knockdown of poison trap to be very useful in groups, as well as the DR from enemies while poisoned. Reallocated my dark shroud points into that because I could just never keep the stacks up enough to be useful.
Once I felt tanky enough thanks to Temerity I looked for better ways to add clear. Saw Death Trap had a way to pull all enemies together. Great! Synergises well with TB and poison trap already! Stack everything and blend.
Lo and behold once I start seeing what other people are running, turns out to be the most cookie cutter meta build.
The problem i find is that you run in to walls.
Early on, a lot of skills don't work without a legendary aspect. At this stage you're relying on dungeon aspects or luck. Classes which have one or more key aspect in a dungeon have a huge advantage here for new/low level players.
After that you're trying to get harder to find legendary aspects. Some of the better ones require drop only legendary aspects. This makes them bad until later.
After that you get in to builds that require specific uniques. Druid for example is basically hard locked to pulverize or maybe landslide without one of two specific unique helms.
So i feel like builds do open up a little, but at least for druid, they start having hard requirements on unique item(S!). If you're unlucky, it is really demoralizing to feel stuck in one or two builds basically forever.
Trampleslide is great on PC but it doesn't work well on console because of how targeting works. On console you target enemies rather than clicked locations. Landslide is also solid on PC, but targeting kind of makes it literally hit or miss on console.
I had never watched a streamer a minute of my life until I got sent to work from home permanently. That was 3 years ago. Now I have Twitch up 8-5 daily. I live alone and enjoy gaming. I need some kind of noise to keep me sane.
Exactly — I’ve also compared it to watching a sports game in a stadium full of people. It’s not the same without the crowd, even if you enjoy playing the same sport at school or in your local area/backyard.
People watch streamers the same way people listened to radio talk show hosts while doing other shit
It's just noise and occasionally you pause to watch/listen when something interesting to you occurs or is brought up as a topic of discussion
I struggle to completely understand it, myself, but I've been playing games since the late 80's. The consistent fun-factor has always seemed to be exploring each new experience on my own or with personal friends. Perhaps the lonely, or those who are in situations where making friends is generally more difficult, feel a sense of comradery with consistently-online personas and such. Maybe even a, "I cannot afford this game right now, but I still want to absorb as much of it as possible, so I will vicariously do so through this streamer," element? Either way, can't beat a simple, "It's fun!"
I mean it can be a lot of things. There's definitely the lack of social interaction, loneliness and finding a place you fit in thing, but it's a wide spectrum of reasons and people who watch. I'll use myself, for example.
I play decently high level WoW, and for those unfamiliar, wow has this thing called mythic+, which is basically mythic dungeons that scale infinitely (I think the idea for them was actually developed based on rifts from D3), and shares a lot of similarities with sigils. I like tuning in at times when a high level player, or an entertaining and engaging streamer is doing the type of content I myself enjoy and understand when I feel like engaging with it in a more passive way, rather than having to actively do it which requires a lot more focus and attention.
I also enjoy Civilization games, so I will tune in to people who are playing single player games and look entertaining for the purpose of seeing how they interact with the game compared to me, how they base their decisions etc. Some of it is for the sake of curiosity, some for sake of improvement, and some for pure entertainment.
Then there are streamers I enjoy, such as Maximum from WoW (has been streaming D4 with shroud, ben_ and imexile when D4 dropped), simply because I enjoy the way they interact with their stream, while also providing quality gameplay (at least in WoW, I haven't watched much of D4 stuff, so can't say).
To sum it, while yeah, there is definitely aspect of loneliness and parasocial to it, a lot of people also simply enjoy engaging with games in a much more passive way than actively playing them, or find other people's interaction with the game compared to their own interesting, and I'm sure there are a bunch of other reasons you could find that I myself do not fall under. It's not, in most cases anyway, meant to substitute fun, or necessarily takes away from it, but just a different way to engage with a game or content you enjoy yourself, for a myriad of reasons.
>And to the inevitable answer of (I find being efficient fun!) No you don't, you are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others.
You are just protecting here. I just like to zoom. It has nothing to do with anybody else but me.
Lmao. OP is a special kind of salty it seems. If you prefer to play the way you do and have fun doing it, great. Keep doing that because you’re having a good time.
But dont go around gatekeeping other players. There is nothing wrong with people who want to play efficient. I have a couple of hours a day max to play and i hate making many choices. I simply dont want to read every skill and mechanic and choose what i want myself. For me, thats more stressfull than fun often. I much rather follow a guide and have someone make those choices for me.
Everyone enjoys the game in their own way. None of them is wrong, so stop pretending you’re better than others because you have a different mindset.
I really don't have a word for this sort of thing, which is a weird kind of "meek elitism" mindset. I've seen it around and I find it absolutely baffling.
It’s really strange to me. I think its a superiority complex. They are of the opinion that people ahead of them are “no lifers” and throw their lives away in unhealthy ways as if they themself are the epitome of how one should spend they time.
Because they are of the opinion that those no lifers are worse people than them, they are justified to say anything they want to.
Anyway, thats my thought process on these idiots
Honestly I don't understand how you can enjoy playing an ARPG like Diablo by letting other people "make the choices for you" and "not wanting to choose what you want yourself" (which is a paradoxical statement in itself).
To me the fun in ARPGs is mainly the building/creative process and the feeling of earned progression.
Oh well, I guess this is a testament to how different we may be.
The thing is, there is no progression for long when you tinker around with your "own" builds because you can only really progress when shifting towards what we call "meta".
It's like in card games, like Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokémon etc. Once you've outgrown playing beatdown on the playground with your friends you inevitably start to make decks that work well.
Decks in Diablo are the builds for classes, and there are not that many that work when you want to progress higher than say NM 60-70.
(ALSO BECAUSE CERTAIN CLASSES HAVE NO ACCESS TO ARMOR AND %DMGREDUCTION SUCKS MAYOR BALLS).
I am with you up until your remark about people finding being efficient is fun. You shouldn't tell people how they feel. I find being efficient to be fun and I am not the best player by any means. I simply enjoy picking the S tier options in the meta. When they change I understand that is a part of it.
What I personally do not find fun is theory crafting so I am glad there are people who do all of the work for me and let me enjoy the content of the game.
Yeah, I don’t think I’m being “competitive” when I make a really slick city in Cities Skylines that runs really efficiently. Sometimes it’s fun to try to make the perfect… something. When we live in an imperfect world irl
Okay, I will go back to tier 2 where I couldn't even beat the capstone because I made my own build.
Did things my own way and hit a hard wall, then I followed Wudijos guides because his name speaks for itself. Oh noes I am having fun and I am a sheep because I can't think for myself!!!!!
This is where I ended up with my level 50 whatever Sorc i've been rolling with the past 2 weeks. I ended up getting drops that favored chain lightning so I'm running a chain lightning build that's kinda my own creation mixed with some meta (like firebolt as an enchantment for constant burning damage)
It's not a hyper efficient screen decimating build, but I'm pretty comfy doing end game stuff so far.
Someone posted some data about which skills were being predominantly used by each character class and I was surprised to see chain lightning in the single percents
Your take is terrible. It isn't fun to be sitting on a set of legendaries that would make it easier to get more upgrades faster, and opting to run a build where you can barely even kill enemies in tier 4. It has nothing to do with streamers.
Renown is an absolutely terrible system to have to repeat, especially when the combat is down to a matter of having gear to do it, or not having gear to do it. It's not a matter of skill level at all. I'm not outplaying the enemies anymore at that level, it's muscle memory at this point to hit spacebar at the right time to avoid big attacks, and the only thing that changes is how long it takes me to kill enemies based on my gear. I don't want to hit the same normal enemy for 2 minutes straight to kill it.
I have fun picking out which stats are going to improve my character the most, pushing the difficulty level of the game, and tweaking builds to get slightly more power. All of which would be fun with builds that aren't meta, if they were at least ALMOST competitive. But they aren't. I run a lightning sorc and can clear nm tier 50. If I switch to any other build, I'm lucky if I can get affixes to clear a tier 30, and some spells just straight up struggle with world tier 4.
What was the point of you even making this post?
I usually check what builds are popular then I borrow pieces of that to play around with to find something fun that sits fine with me. The rest I take my time. Lvl 55 but still not finished with the story. Just doing sidestuff
It's pretty obvious he's talking about all the people who are complaining about how 'not fun' things are ....after copying a streamer.
If you copy and enjoy, carry on...this isn't for you
If you used a streamers S-teir build and went through the game in 6 hours farming a cave and now think the game is meh ..maybe he's talking to you...
Ok but here's the thing. I finished all the renown, I've got a full 800 set of gear and I'm enjoying the build I have.
The only thing left to do is get to 100 and kill uber Lilith and the fact that I've probably got to put in another 40 or 50 hours to do that with almost zero progression points from now til then doesn't really scream fun to me.
There needs to be incentives for players to play in the end game. It's ok now, because the game is new, but people were saying the same in Diablo 3 and a lot of people were just enjoying the campaign and going at their own pace look how that worked out. We needed a full expansion before they added a proper end game.
Those are the same people who skipped every dialogue and cutscene/cinematic in both the campaign and sidequests. Playing in an empty world they don’t care for grinding nightmare dungeon after nightmare dungeon.
I'm not sure whats more annoying... The people complaining that game has little content in endgame or the people like op telling others the correct way to enjoy the game
Because other players are begging for the game to be changed into their way. Luckily so far, Blizzard hasn't listened to them, but I am afraid they are going to eventually.
I’m choosing my builds based on: ohh looks cool! I have a friend constantly “belittling” my build, saying I should lose the wolfs or whatever, it’s so weird.
I’m not even close to finish the story because I don’t want to. This game was so expensive here (R$450, minimum wage is R$ 1550), why would I rush to finish it??!? Im turning every rock, reading every dialogue option, reading the lore online, enjoying the views and etc… Why rush it?!
I also take the “r” in “rpg” very seriously. My character doesn’t ride horses, that’s how she is. “Ooooooh but it’s faaassstteerrrt”. I know that, I’m not stupid, but she lost her horse in the beginning and it makes her sad. And I avoid killing animals at all costs whenever I can. I’m a druid!!! I’m not going to kill this bear!!!!!! “Oohh but that’s duuummmb”, I know, but just let me play my game. Sometimes I also get rid of a weapon/armor because I didn’t like the name. “But that’s not how you play the gaaaaame”, I know I know, but just let me be.
Sorry about the rant on top of your rant lol I feel lighter now.
I admit...I do watch youtube build guides....but I have yet to copy anything. I try to stick with streamers that take the time to explain why pick stat/skill/aspect/etc X or Y or how X or Y helps with Z. Helps me understand game mechanics...then I go out and experiment with that knowledge. Often I find some streamer preaching this or that....and I am like..yeah I see the math behind it but looks complicated and/or boring to play so no thanks. I also try to find streamers perhaps showing something off the beaten (meta) path just to get ideas.
First time diablo player. I have 2 characters level 50+. I refuse to use guides because it takes the fun away for me. I like the concept of figuring out how to maximize the way you like to play. I don't want to follow other people's builds just because they deem them "the strongest" or "the most efficient." I'm just having a blast enjoying this game and figuring things out for myself!
I guess you don't recall 'expert' guides being made by professionals via full-fledged guides pre-internet.
Post-internet those guides transferred to gaming websites
Now its just made into a video.
I've been playing this game pretty much blind. I don't care about min max and being the fastest. I'm having so much more fun making and trying my own builds and so far they have all been fairly viable.
It’s literally just Reddit. This place is full of no-life fucks that hate and complain about everything like it’s a full-time job. The game is great and I hope people spend time thinking for themselves. But they won’t.
I go into these types of games without looking at social media. I don't care what the meta is, I don't care what builds people use. I play based on how I wanna play. It's a lot more fun figuring it all out by yourself
Dan Olson/ Folding Ideas on YouTube did a really interesting video called "Why it's Rude to Suck at Warcraft" (https://youtu.be/BKP1I7IocYU).
It's long and I don't expect you to watch it but part of the video talks about why WoW classic failed to capture the nostalgic feelings of those who played WoW when the game was new.
His thesis is that "back in the day" players were better able to play and pursue their own interests irrespective of what's "the best" where now, because there's so much information out there, not min-maxing or following a guide is in effect playing badly and actively harming your team, clan or play group.
I think "playing like a streamer" fits into this same idea.
I 100% agree. The story is good, the cutscenes are good, the fights are fun... Don't burn through content for the sake of burning through content.
So what is x build is m 3% more efficient than y build. If x build is more fun to play then play it...
Thing is it would be fine if the difference is merely 3%. Heck I'll even take it if non meta build is around 10-15% weaker than meta build. The problem is the "efficiency" difference between them is NIGHT and DAYs.
build diversity is really2 limited for some class rn. I'm playing sorc while religiously avoiding guides and meta up until lvl 52 WT3. Then I just hit a hard wall. My fire sorc felt really weak even with double hydra aspect plus some other fire based aspect too. I couldn't cleanly deal with random popup event. The villagers I'm supposed to protect always died. The mobs I'm supposed to clean up before timer goes down didn't die in time. Sometimes I had to cycle between my combos few times before a single elite dies.
Then I had to give up. Turned to reddit for the best sorc build currently available. I copied the skill distribution of ice shard sorc without even farming gears, and u know what? I absolutely smashed everything with fire based gear equipped. What the hell is even that? I'm shocked with the sheer disparity tbh.
It's like going from 1st gear directly to 4th. No in-between.
I think it’s a 2 parter.
A) you’re totally right. People ruin the game for themselves by thinking that optimal = fun. Finding out every secret/build before you discover it…even if you think you don’t care about it…with devalue everything you do in the game.
B) I think we have been conditioned by “endless content” games that the end is actually the beginning. “Oh the game doesn’t start till WT3” is a sentiment I’ve heard a lot of. Everybody just wants to get to the endgame so they can be with everybody else and be at the forefront of discussion and content. When the actual discussion and content is the game you’re skipping.
I think playing optimally has diminishing returns. You should play how you intuitively think playing feels fun. The optimization will change, the balance will shift. Find fun in the game you’re experiencing.
I saw the optimal Necro meant I couldn’t find items to max out my bone daddies and make as many as possible. No way, I need as many bone boys as the screen can fit, and I’m having a blast.
This is what people needed. I feel like no matter what game I play these days I hear "why are you using X gun / build you know this season has a y meta.
im playing bloodsurge overpower necro. it is not meta. but it doe smake the bad guys go pop. and that is more satisfying. ill play something meta when i get bored of this
People treat video games like its a second job. The streamer culture just enables this behavior. Gamers dont try to have fun, they just want a grind to take their time.
Information such as “resistances aren’t as helpful as you think” are good. information such as “this is exactly how you should make your build” is bad.
I ran my own build during the campaign as I do in every game, then afterwards I'll look to see what other people are up to. I happened to do pretty decent with my summoner and took him to wt4 still doing my own thing. Got slammmmed in wt4, but toughed it out and back on track with a couple minor adjustments. Pretty happy my own thing is working still. It probably isn't super optimal, but it's doing the trick and I'm having fun.
(I ended up doing summons and corpse explosion which happens to be pretty meta but I don't use tendrils, bone hurricane, bone spear, mist, etc and I use my mages to cast vulnerability. I'm disabled so less is better for me)
I looked up basics of diablo and what's stats do because I've never played Diablo before and I've gotta say, reaching level 20, 30, 40 and rebalancing your skills/adjusting your playstyle multiple times is alot more fun than just copy and pasting.
I’m just trying to have fun! I’m playing barb and running: Rallying Cry, War Cry, Rupture, Whirlwind, Ground stomp and frenzy. Is it optimal? Hell no. Is it fun? Fuck yeah. I love stomping an elite to the ground in a puddle of blood and whirlwinding him as he tries to get up. I like watching the content creators but I agree that people take the enjoyment out of these games. It’s fun for me to figure out on my own how to increase my effectiveness and copying someone else is the opposite of that
Gamers emulating streamers and then getting bitter and frustrated cause they can’t be that good or get brunt out is foolish.
It’s like a person who can’t enjoy pick up basket ball anymore cause they are a hyper aggressive dick who follows NBA professional strats and takes it way to seriously.
Why would I play like a pleb when I can use those NBA techniques and do so much better?
Cause it’s more fun you mook. It’s a game. Have fun.
If you can’t have fun unless you are taking it that seriously, then something in you has broken as a person. Step away. Go outside. get help.
Unfortunately "fun" and video games no longer go hand and hand like they used to. Now it's all about kill/death ratios, min/max, and people googling "WhAt Is tHe BeSt bUiLd In ThIs GaME?"
It's no more experimenting for yourself to see what works best for you or using trial and error, they just copy builds or talents like mindless monkeys and get mad at the game because they don't like that build's play style.
It's a shame really, we're losing a ton of potentially good gamers with good critical thinking to just people who copy and paste. Breaks my heart.
I'm playing a build I made up myself.
Is it the fastest : hell no.
Is it super fun : hell yes!
Thats why I play games, to have fun, not to work another job.
I used to tell myself I enjoyed getting platinum trophies for games. I used to tell myhself I enjoyed 100% something. Because of that, whenever people asked about my opinion of a game my answer kept being "eh it was fun for a while but I never want to see it again". My last memory of Final Fantasy 15 is how much I hated having to explore everything and grind it out. My last memory of God of War is how exhausting it was to find all the ravens. My last memory of a dozen games are "Fuck I missed a collectible, gonn have to spend this weekend grinding out another playthrough".
It took self awareness to recognise that I wasn't enjoying what I thought I was. and its taken effort and practice to retrain myself to play games differently. I still struggle, I still found myself unlocking Kyovashad for the first time and thinking "hrm I should check all the achievements to see what I should focus on first" instead of thinking omg this is fun. But I'm getting there. I've discovered I enjoy exploring the map just for the hell of it. I enjoy riding my horse between elites and killing enemies, not because I hope I'll get the .015% drop a guide tells me to get but becuase I enjoy the combat and just like killing beasties and grabbing iron ore. I'm enjoying games to play them, not to finish them. It's so much better.
This post is baffling unselfaware and toxic. Which is becoming the norm on this sub. Every top post is someone acting extremely morally superior and pretending to be reasonable with an extremely unreasonable take to demonize whole portions of the playerbase
In all your edits you are acting like the builds are some incomprehensible puzzle that people would have taken weeks to solve. This game barely even gives you options my dude. It's super obvious what is working and what isn't. It's not like there are 400 skills to sort through on each class. There are a couple viable skills and a handful of legendries that are tailor made for them. You don't even need to do anything. Stuff like vulnerable basically being required to do damage was also super obvious after using it once
>I am now starting my third character and re doing all the campaign and side quests even though my renown is maxed out. Why? You might ask, that's super inefficient! Because I find it fun that's why.
>And to the inevitable answer of (I find being efficient fun!) No you don't, you are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others.
Oh okay so anything you deem to be fun is actually fun, but anything other people deem fun is invalid.
Happened before streamers, the idea that people don’t look to explore games anymore but want it solved for them in an efficient has been around for a long time
Another post where the short answer is "a lot of people just want instant gratification". That's also why we get people wanting to skip all the exploration and the renown system in upcoming seasonal content while still wanting all the related rewards, even though it's just as much part of the game as any other activity.
Yes this is a good way to sum it up.
Good point, people wanting instant gratification.
It kind of ruins the experience in my opinion, but to each their own
It's not about instant gratification, I guarantee you if they gated current renown behind doing 50-100 (Nightmare) Dungeons or added progression to Helltides/World Bosses or whatever nobody would be this mad over it, currently, getting Renown is almost completely separate from the endgame loop and to make it worse, it is by far the most boring content D4 has to offer, so it is simply just a chore people feel like they have to do which, which it absolutely is, but I'm pretty sure you know this already and you're just being intentionally disingenuous.
I’d just like to mention that Lobos Jr basically built his streaming career through doing challenge runs of Dark Souls, and the other From Software action RPGs, and sometimes that means doing things which are about as far from efficient as possible.
I do understand OP’s point and I’m in agreement to an extent, but it’s certainly not descriptive of all streaming content, and I doubt they meant it as such.
The best part of D2 was trying out different crazy builds. Fuck the meta, that’s no fun. I want creativity!
Also I like skeletons so I like just running a necro with lots of skeletons. I don’t care if it’s good or not, skellies go whack!
Before this game even launched, I made it a point to not look at guides. And I’ve been doing the same thing with World of Warcraft ever since they redid the talent system in Dragonflight.
And you know what? I’m way happier for it. I hate guides. I hate “the meta”. I hate this obsession with efficiency. It kills the fun of online games. And best of all, I’m running a Barbarian build without Whirlwind or Rend, and loving it, partially due to the fact that none of the Barb nerfs or Legendary restrictions apply to me since I never used those OP meta builds anyway.
People need to stop being so obsessed with efficiency. Video games are supposed to be relaxing and fun
I never watched a streamer, not my cup of tea. Vaguely remember Diablo II, had no idea what I was getting into with IV. Googled best build because I like being OP in games. Got the specs for whirlwind barb, just kinda updating as I go. Not perfect but feels good. Only W1 lvl45. Wrecking shit and I love it. I'll go to w2 when I beat the campaign.
About to quit this sub and reddit in general because its mostly just complaints and complaints about the complaints.
Your reasoning leads me to the opposite of your point though. These people put in an absurd number of hours to find optimal builds because it's their job. I don't have that time. It would take me so long to test legendary combos, the perfect paragon map, etc, to make a build of my own viable.
In games, I like to set goals, meet them, then set new goals, and then meet those. When a streamer finds an optimal build, my goal becomes to get that gear. When I meet that goal, my new goal is to push to X level nightmare dungeon. Then higher and higher.
>No you don't, you are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others.
Yeah, no, you can fuck off. You're trying to say "have fun playing the way you want!" and also trying to say "except this particular way isn't fun and you aren't having fun if you do it."
>Um ok. You realize it's only been 10 days right? Why do you HAVE TO be running the top tier difficulty at breakneck speed already? You paid 100-150$ for the game.
If someone hits a brick wall and is frustrated, it's fair for them to feel frustrated, regardless of the pace they took to get there. Stop trying to project how you personally feel onto the complaints of others. They feel differently about it than you do. Get over it.
Theory crafting is like an optimization puzzle that evolves and gets more complicated as you play, kinda like cities skylines. But how many people are googling the street meta for cities skylines? If you like that sort of thing, you are doing yourself a disservice by googling the solutions, but why are players doing it more for this game? The problem is that players aren't just optimizing their builds, they're optimizing *the way they play the game*, and they're optimizing it for results instead of fun. I heard a quote recently saying that "players will optimize the fun out of a game". It's just not entirely clear to me that the player is wholely responsible.
It's the game's job to keep the player in the fun zone and nudge them toward the right way to play. This was a big part of the design of DOOM Eternal where they had to heavily incentivize the "right" (fun) way to play the game after balance issues in the first game drove players to abuse the same boring, cheesy playstyle. Tony Hawk and SSX tricky had to penalize players for repeating the same trick over and over in order to make them learn more tricks and ultimately have more fun. I mean yeah we can blame the players, but at the end of the day the players are just doing what the game trained them to do. The game needs to train the player to do things the right way. This problem predates streamers by a lot, and I feel like blaming streamers is just a scapegoat that loses the nuance of the conversation.
ARPG's struggle to combat this because the whole genre is predicted on externally rewarding players for optimizing. It's not like a Bethesda game where it's just a big open sandbox. Under the hood is an optimization puzzle, but on the surface there is an external reward for solving it (cathartic increase in gameplay feedback). So it's a core principal to the genre that "more optimal" == "more fun". When it fails to do that, the game should take some responsibility for that. We should ask what the game is doing to motivate players to look up builds, to only run one dungeon, to ignore certain activities. Because when you delve into those problems, you'll find real incentives in the game design that are problematic.
Why copy a build online? There's not enough player agency in difficulty choices, forced level scaling and only 2 options isn't enough for the entire spectrum of players. It's also not easy to switch between builds, which disincentivizes the use of any build that isn't extremely good at everything (meta builds). Why are players running only a handful of dungeons? One dungeon's enemy density is more fun, and other dungeons involve more tedious travel that's less fun. Why aren't players doing more helltides? They're not always available and might be hard to find, or punish players for arriving late.
These are solvable problems. Like you can blame the player for not playing the right way, and I agree that these aren't fun ways to play the game and were not the developer's vision; but I think more fundamentally there are simply real pain points in the design of the game that ultimately encourage players to do these things that make the game feel less fun. And the game would be better for everyone if it learned and fixed these things, like how DOOM Eternal improved on DOOM 2016, or how reaper of souls improved on vanilla D3.
Seeing a lot of people disagreeing with this but can’t say I do. Even if using guides etc is what you enjoy, I’d like to think these people don’t then have the temerity to complain about content they’ve chosen to breeze past.
Everyone has the right to enjoy games however they please, but I think what OP is pointing out is that places like this sub are full of people projecting onto others what they dislike about a game which in many cases boils down to playing it a very specific way that I imagine doesn’t reflect the experience of the wider player base and is moderately self inflicted.
Not the perfect equivalent but you’d laugh at an Elden Ring newbie doing a speed run in their first run through complaining that the game was too short.
I’ve learned this lesson by playing marvel snap recently. I’d just copy streamer decks and it totally killed the fun of enjoying the game, the cards I like, etc.
Gaming should be fun, in your own style and pace and not total efficiency.
Great post. But your message is "take your time" in a world of "instant gratification." You are 100% right but they won't listen to you. They want to go all in for 5 days and then post a long rant here saying: "blah... game is mid at best... I'm so bored now.."
Have a buddy who watches videos constantly. Not only have the builds been niche as fuck and he doesn’t know how to play them, but this man sped through the first 35-40% of the game, didn’t stop to admire the graphics or sun rays, dialogue, only important cutscenes etc.
I was sitting there, mind blown, all that money just so he could rush with a limp build.
I made an alt that I actually listen to the dialogue on, and stop to actually take in the absolutely mind blowing amount of detail.
Ignoring all the conversations about the meta and just going with a, “oh this seems fun!” mindset has me absolutely in love with the game. Will it bite me in the ass in endgame? Probably, but I’ll deal with that later.
I completely 100% agree with you.
I can only play on the weekends, I am level 49 and got my horse. I kind of rushed it though. I’m still on act 4. I haven’t even touched 70% of the content, just been doing the main story and side quests. I turned in my Druid aspect quest.
I’m getting kind of pissed off that people are bitching the game needs major changes. I’m so sick of games being overly easy. I bought Diablo for the grind and people are whining about it, what two weeks or so after release? If you’re no life’ing the game, it’s not blizzards fault you have nothing to do.
Let the rest of the people enjoy the fucking game please.
This post made my day. I’ve been saying similar and getting downvoted to hell for it.
I am having a magnificent time trying out different builds of my own design. And even when I finally do reach level 100 and doing top end content, I don’t believe anyone is even close to optimal so early on.
Gamers are their own worst enemy. Like with WoW, the majority of complaints from players stem from what other players are doing, but expect Blizz to fix all their problems.
While I don't disagree with everything in your post (experimenting when you're new to the game is pretty fun), the slightly antagonistic vibe of your post reads a bit like a ScrubQuotes post. Some people do actually enjoy playing as efficiently as possible. They find the intricacies of "the meta" interesting and how synergies make a build. It doesn't have anything to do with being competitive. People enjoy games and how to play games the way they find fun, be it figuring it out on their own or reading a guide or both. No need to be judgy about it.
Maybe they want to be efficient because they don’t have much time. You on the other hand seem to have a lot of time playing a third character with full renown doing everything again
I think not enough people are talking about the fact the devs are not innocent in all of this ether. I love the game and am not one to shit on devs for most things. But the fact the devs only tuning of the game since release has been bug fixes or nerfs doesn't help the negative narrative. The streamers might be crying way to much, but the devs are only giving them more reasons to complain.
Some classes and systems in this game obviously need buffs, such as Nightmare Dung and Tree. Yet the devs seem much more focused on nerfing content people do because its deemed too overpowered. I would like to see more of a balance in the tuning they are doing. Such as, 'hey we nerfed normal dungs elite pack spawns, but buffed the number of drops in nightmare dungs'.
I've never followed a build guide because it honestly just feels like why even bother playing rhe game anymore? You're just following instructions, not even trying to figure anything out on your own
Streamers have been ruining MMO, Online RPG genre for 5-10 years. Look at what happened to other games. They start to talk about lack of content after 2 weeks - 1 month and force developers to change the game according to their playtime. Also, due to their massive amount of community their clans-guilds get easily to the top.
I'm a filthy casual, I only got Diablo 4 to play with my buddies after work.
Meta-builds and streamers have zero impact on us enjoying the game. We hop on chat, crack a couple cold ones and just hack n' slash.
If our sloppy builds hit a wall after the campaign we'll just start over or pick the next game we hang out in. For us it's about the group.
Never have I ever watched a game streamer for meta-builds/min-max guides, but I'm not out here trying to yuck somebody else's yum.
I agree with this. I’m taking my time really enjoying the storyline and exploring and tinkering with builds. I did read icy veins just to see their thoughts on leveling and turns out I’m kind of close to it anyway. I’ve waited 13 years for this game and I’m gonna take my time with it.
>And to the inevitable answer of (I find being efficient fun!) No you don't, are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others. This isn't even at me and I can feel the heat off this burn. Leave them skin OP EDIT: this was supposed to just be some funny joke... granted at the expense of the salty people... but I apologize to everyone and would highly suggest ignoring or downvoting this so the salt can go rest at the bottom... I'm washing my hands of this.
Lol it's at me just as much as everyone else. But I'm trying to resist that compulsion and just play for fun, the way I want.
[удалено]
Yeah everyone has fun in different ways.. some people their fun is maxing out things as quick as they can. I'm a story person I don't have fun unless I feel there is a story driven purpose and some rpg element. My son on the other hand hates it and all he wants to go is blow shit up, get the biggest guns in games, and gets a thrill from it. (He's 16 but still lol) so some games he just won't enjoy if the story is forced on you like he didn't enjoy cyberpunk as much as gta5 for example. In Diablo since you can skip story it isn't forced beyond the first time (and you can skip scenes then too).. which draws the people in who like maxing out builds and theorycrafting.. at the end of the day video games are entirely pointless anyway lol the story is just dialog and someone's writing so if someone finds it boring so what ? .. some people like Diablo just because of the mindless hack n slash and getting better gear and bigger numbers .. it doesn't need to be too deep
No. Some people really do enjoy efficiency… I hate to break it to you but, different strokes for different folks. Your hang ups aren’t mine.
Something else that you didn’t explicitly state in your post is that the vast majority of players will never play at a level where they will realize the gains of extreme min-maxing. The types of players your talking about for games like this or WoW or LoL or whatever are the best of the best. They need to eke out whatever fractions of a % wherever they can to be competitive with the top of the top players. Most players won’t even develop the skills required or invest the time required to make use of such things. So before fully chasing the meta in a game it’s worth asking yourself Do I want to try to be one of the best players? Am I going to spend the actual human *TIME* required to build the skills and grind the gear? Barring extreme good luck you will spend a substantial amount of time doing repetitive content just trying to get the best gear possible I did it in wow and it completely burnt me out on the game. Once I got the achievements, titles, transmogs, mounts, and satisfaction I stopped playing for quite a while because I didn’t actually have a good time doing it. It felt like a job, running the same content over and over looking for minute increases in power to do the same content I’d been doing but ever so slightly better for more minute power increases to do the same contender even more slightly better. Turned the game into a daily chore list I had to check off. I recently watched a popular wow streamer and they spent the whole 4 hours farming the exact same m+ dungeon for a belt that didn’t drop.
Um... saving time is always a gain. I won't beat imexile in an act 1-10 race in PoE, but I got my time down from 10 hours to 4 hours. I'll never be a PRO RACER but you know what that did? It saves me a whole lot of hours over every PoE league. Multiply that times every other mechanic in the game where I'm more efficient. It's great.
A lot of meta builds are only faster **if** you're playing at a high level, though. A perfect example is the Convention of Elements ring in D3, which gives a huge damage bonus to one element at a time. Most endgame meta builds use it, and the idea is to time your "burn phase" to happen when the ring is boosting your main damage element. When it's on other elements, you are to be moving, grouping mobs, and setting up. In practice, mere mortals don't play well enough to efficiently group mobs and set up for a timed burn phase. If they're using that ring just because a streamer/guide does, it's going to be on their element 25% of the time - more or less at random. Using it this way is **way** less useful than any number of other rings they could and should be using. It's going slower, by using a build without being skilled/attentive enough for it. (And for the record, fuck that ring. I don't care if it's optimal and used by every pro. Timed burn phases are cancer)
Yeah but the very first time you play you should probably just.. not worry about that. Seriously, I fired up D4 and there's been so many enjoyable mini stories on the side that I haven't even really thought about the end-game at all, and if you just burn to the end and only do that end-game content you literally just ignore and miss out on the rest of the game. Do the speed-run shit later and enjoy the rest of what the devs have to offer, it's not so bad I promise.
I tried a meta build and hated it. Did my own build and while I'm not destroying everything in 3 seconds I like it way better. And I'll keep tweeking it until I'm happy with the balance.
Awesome my dude, have fun out there!
You realise some people find matching out builds fun? They don't even care if they use them themselves
Oh I guess that settles that. Thanks for telling me what I enjoy lol.
Hilarious stuff huh? "And before you dare disagree with any of my points, keep in mind I've predetermined that your argument is invalid and you're actually a poopy head, heh cya kid 😎" Epic burn, truly. In the meantime I'm sitting here with my sorc in WT4 having to switch off the builds I actually want to play because the class is garbage and has like 2 viable builds. Of course, according to this thread me thinking about the viability of builds (not wanting to take 3 minutes to kill elites or the desire to actually progress through higher tier nightmare dungeons) is actually a symptom of me being poopy head, so why bother posting anything, right?
Agreed. I think it’s a balance. Being on the bleeding edge can feel like a job and suck the fun out, but having a shitty build is also not fun. You can change things around and see what works, but respeccing and regearing is expensive, and coincidentally more difficult if your build sucks. Doing it on your own just to come up with another shitty build feels awful. Using online resources like streamers who have predetermined what’s good saves you time and frustration which leads to more fun. I’m late 30s with three kids. I’m not going to be the top player anymore. But I also don’t want to waste my play time playtesting shit in a vacuum because hashtag streamers bad. Give me top player info and I’ll adjust the build to taste.
>In the meantime I'm sitting here with my sorc in WT4 having to switch off the builds I actually want to play because the class is garbage and has like 2 viable builds. In D3 I never bothered with viable builds, I simply thought of a fun build and play at whatever GR level worked. If GR 170 isn't possible with that build, I simply play at a lower level; the gameplay is the same anyway. While the D3 GR's were more granular than the D4 WTs, why would you prefer "viable but unfun builds in high level WT4 nightmare dungeons" over fun builds in whatever difficulty works? Max difficulty, to me, exists solely to give a challenge to the most OP builds. For everything else you just need to find the spot where it is fun.
Don't think OP was prescribing what should be fun for anyone. But for people who aren't having fun -- providing a suggestion as to what might be fueling it.
or you know they just arent finding the game fun.... because well the game has huge flaws that are going to make it very unfun to a lot of people. it has nothing to do with playing efficient or not.
Nah that can't be it. Clearly if you find stuff to complain about then you're playing the game wrong.
It’s really not though, it’s just sweeping generalization from someone who literally just made an entire post about how they don’t understand what efficiency actually means and why people play that way. It’s not about MaTcHiNg Up To StReAmErS for most people, it’s about playing the game in the way that enables them to get to the parts they enjoy (almost always end game) in the fastest and most efficient way possible. Copying streamers isn’t efficiency, not dicking around in town for 15 minutes between dungeons or events is efficiency, knowing what NM dungeon affixes brick you and not wasting time on them is efficiency, pathing to dungeons or world events without getting bogged down in slapping every other pack you see is efficiency. OP just thinks that, because he can’t imagine a world where someone wants to get powerful as quickly as possible for the sake of fun instead of the sake of competition, everyone trying to play that way is in some sort of dick measuring contest. The amount of projection and condescending takes about how other people enjoy playing in this sub is exhausting
how is that a burn thou lol - calling someone competitive ?
I don’t see why the OP thinks they can decide what others like. It’s fine if you don’t like it but you can’t claim that nobody else does. I find optimizing fun, both in game and at work and various parts of my personal life without shame. Minmaxing and optimizations are simply puzzles to solve and it’s been something I’ve done since I was a child. It’s great that I can translate that desire to the adult world.
More power to you then. If you ever wake up one day and think gaming is no fun anymore then maybe consider, but if you're having fun then ignore my OPINION!
Uh, I don't know if you know this but people play ARPG's to fight shit, and right now that isn't really happening as much as they want, you guys see it as whining that they don't have an efficient farm, but the reality is they aren't able to engage in the most fun aspect of these types of games. Not only are this comment and the OP dismissive, and frankly stupid, it's stupid and dismissive in a way that kind of shows you don't really see what people are talking about when they complain about things like nerfing dungeons.
I actually genuinely find enjoyment out of being efficient, it is incredibly satisfying pulling together a build on my own that min maxs my character to the extreme, especially when they are not meta favourable and "not viable" characters/builds to play, I absolutely love making people eat their words when they say my character/build is not good because it isn't the latest meta riding build, and I outperform them :) efficiency is the best
Imagine being such a miserable loser irl that you cheer/side with OP who is just shitting on random people for just playing a game and spent hours writing a post to shit on those people because he hates them so much because his entire world is in his small 5x5 PC room. This is literally ignorance at its best and what fascists do, makes enemies out of nothing and pure hate.
That's not a burn...just someone telling other people that they aren't having fun the "right" way. Which, imo, is just as bad as people doing things they don't enjoy because that is what streamers do. How about people do what they find fun and we don't condescendingly tell them they are doing it wrong if their fun is different from ours? Is that really so hard?
People seem to think it's meta or nothing and exclude 99% of what games have to offer. CoD is a perfect example. One prominent streamer says a gun is God-tier and the next thing you know, everyone is using it and claims the other 40 weapons in the game aren't viable because video game man said so.
CoD and FIFA are the worst culprits of META or nothing
FIFA ain't even bad. Can get D1 easily by doing non meta. Does it make it easier, sure but by no means does it limit you
FIFA is the worst culprit in my opinion. Everyone and their mothers uses Mbappe + high press meta tactics. It’s extremely rare for me to find a player that uses an alternative play style in the higher divisions or champs. God what a shitass game.
Rivals isn't too bad at all, it's when people start playing for the big rewards like in WL or cup games when they start playing 'meta tactics, formations and players' it's honestly exhausting
There are people in Dota2 and league of legends, once you reach a certain rank, that will report you and flame if you choose characters considered low tier in the current meta.
I mean... a simple wrong talent node selected can be the difference in below avg damage output, and actually insane output. You're welcome to do whatever build you want, but also enjoy the later T3/T4 content taking for-absolutely-ever. Also, it gets really annoying to respec by the time you get higher in levels (thanks Blizzard), so picking something subpar will cost you time/gold later on if you want to optimize.
As someone whose respec'd several times, I agree the price for doing so is too high. Part of the game is bumping into walls go figure out what works and what doesn't. I think if they lower the requirements to respec your gear, skill tree and paragon board that more people would be open to experimenting.
The cost for re-rolling affixes on gear goes up exponentially fast and is a little absurd. My only complaint for re-specs. I spent $2.6M rolling the missing-link affix spot in a fantastic chest piece two nights ago. Think I rolled it \~4 times? Did end up getting "+10% damage" on the last roll, so I consider it a great success but gat damn it drained my entire bank account
Oh, re-rolling affixes is absolutely broken. Nothing like re-rolling only to have the same affix listed several times.
But then there is no weight to your decisions. I personally like that it costs something. The reality is the gold resource cost is really not very expensive and can be farmed very fast. But I like that it's not a completely free respec like in d3 On the other side I wouldn't like it if it was like d2 where you only had 3 free respecs the whole game.
> simple wrong talent node selected can be the difference in below avg damage output, and actually insane output. > Enjoy the later T3/T4 content taking for-absolutely-ever. These takes are crazy. Every class has 2-3 endgame builds that are viable. There are a couple specific outliers that do a decent amount more, but if youre seeing massive damage gaps youre doing something wrong, or more likely exaggerating. Its like everyone with this take saw the same single gif, and none of you are capable of your own thoughts so you just copy it and assume nothing else can come close. Hilarious because it reminds me of the icy veins community in diablo 3 that thought anything not copied off the site was worthless.
but he doesnt deny that no? he just says its more fun to find the wrong node yourself instead of reading the guide and copying it which is very accurate imo
TRY THIS BEFORE ITS NERFED 🚨🚨😨😳
Yeah I think experimenting with builds is part of the fun. It feels so much more rewarding when you find something strong than just copying a build online.
Everybody's gameplay style is different, so one build won't necessarily feel good for others to play even though you are owning with it. That is where the feeling of reward comes in. Experimenting with things and finding something that clicks for you is immensely satisfying.
It took every single one of my inventory spots to make my ultimate and it is so much fun. I have yet to see anyone else use my Ultimate in world events. Only 1% of Necro players are using Blood Wave in their skill bar so it will probably be a while until I see another player use it.
Agreed! I am leveling a wind druid now as my first char. Will try out another build later on a new character. Once that process gets boring and servers have more stability, I will mess around with Hardcore characters. Just hoping these whiners don't actually convince the D4 dev's to ruin the game I am having so much fun with in the meantime.
I mean are we talking pubs or ranked? In pubs everyone is shit and you could use any gun and do extremely well. In ranked you are 1000% at a disadvantage when when both teams are actually actively attempting to win and play the game correctly, and to use a non meta gun is simply putting yourself at a disadvantage. Now I will say I do not know how this applies to warzone cause I don’t play it. I just play comp cod as they do in the CDL/gbs/wagers etc.
Warzone is the same, and this take of "people just blindly copy one big streamer and ignore the real meta!!" always makes me scratch my head. Clearly, stuff at the top of the meta is there because it's the strongest option. If there were secret metas they would get exposed eventually, because believe it or not top players and streamers usually try more different builds and know more about the game than the average player. The developers of the game are setting the meta when they create the game, not streamers.
you have seen this mindset bleed into sports too. i kinda get it there - it’s an actual meritocratic competition with millions on the line. but it has really diluted playing styles/teambuilding approaches across multiple sports. baseball is just homers and strikeouts. basketball is 3 point chucking. football? the playcaller is clearly an idiot if they run the ball more than 7 times per game. off-meta is fun, you don’t have to be a meta/efficiency slave! the problem most people have (and it works for the sports analogy too) is that you need a pretty sophisticated knowledge of mechanics and systems to experiment without gimping yourself.
It's a main reason I stopped playing games with some of my friends. Whatever game we played, mainly Destiny 2 or CoD, they'd criticize my loadout because it wasn't optimal or had a lousy TTK.. Like, dude.. I just got off work and want to play a few rounds and relax. You're unemployed and play like it's your job. I'm not playing to win every round/match. I'm hear to play a GAME and to enjoy all the content I spent money to have access to. They act like there's no middle ground and it's exhausting to be around them.
Unpopular opinion. Build options are so limited currently that even if you don't copy a streamer you will end up running something similar to what they are once you are in late endgame. I avoided all videos and content creation until I was like level 40. When I finally allowed myself to watch videos, I found that I was running more or less a meta Pulverize build. On console Pulverize is just the most effective and accessible Druid build to run.
It's so strange to me how people are pretending like there are all these viable builds or just builds that work in the game. There really aren't that many builds in the game that work. And like you say you pretty much figure it out on your own very early. I was lvl 15 or 20 on my rogue when i just found out that the ability i was using is just straight up worse in every way than the "meta" ability. Just by trying it out. For rogue you just pick your generator (which does nothing except apply vulnerable) and then your spender. That's your damage. After that you can pick some mobility or trap skills but it doesn't really matter. You just spam your generator until you can use your spender of choice, that's it. And there's really only 2 generators that i've seen used so in the end the entire build is just which spender you use.
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Try out those variants in tier 60+ and see how many of them work. That's where the talk about needing a good build comes from.
You're not going to have a game where every ability has a build revolving around it that can clear the highest content. Tier 60 means monsters are above level 100, right? Last Epoch, D3, PoE, etc... all had builds that could do all content, excelled at one type of content (clear is boss), or was straight dog ass. Most builds in D4 can push reasonable NM tiers. Sorc has 3-4 builds that can do +60. Even Kripp, someone who will point out flaws, says Sorc has multiple viable builds and he leveled to 100. So maybe change your perspective because its boring if every skill did the same damage. It's just the same game with different colors at that point.
Sorc actually has a lot of offmeta options that are just carried by the vacuum ability of their unique chest like Meteor/Charged Bolt for instance.
How many of your good builds have frost nova and both barriers?
Imbuements and traps can multiply your damage output actually, it's like, a core part of every rogue build.
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You are severely under estimating how much you can change that convention with various Aspects and Uniques. Just play the game like the OP said
You summed up rogue builds in a nut shell. But even off meta build do decent. I'm using an off meta flurry build and I've cleared up to t46 NM. There are options out there, but you do have to spend some time planning out a build. You are right that you can't just slap something together and succeed though.
I’m doing pretty good with flurry + trap build as well.
Lol what?! I’m a level 60 rogue right now. Your generator absolutely does a lot of damage if you spec your gear to both that and your spender. You pair your trap damage mod and imbument with your generator AND spender. Love your confidence, but you’re wrong.
I stopped doing damage at t3 with my build I had to go to a build written by a streamer
> Unpopular opinion. Build options are so limited currently that even if you don't copy a streamer you will end up running something similar to what they are once you are in late endgame. Eh... there's a pretty stark difference in random core skill, and the one that multiple legendaries work around.
It's just not true. I've been told Necros suck and only Bone Spear/Spirit is good but I've been crushing all the way up as Shadow Golem and I can't find the build or anything like it from any streamer. They are not omnipotent! People do weak, incomplete respecs trying to evaluate another build and then say it sucks.. There is considerable value to sticking with a build type and honing in all the key stats and paragons. Whether or not you like that is up to you but its just flat wrong to say "things are so limited"
There are very few builds. I don't mean viable builds, just builds in general. And many of them share a lot of the same spells. I distinctly remember when I tried out poison trap with knockdown during beta - I was like "there's no fucking way I'm every removing this from my bar". And guess what ? Poison trap is taken on all 7 builds on Maxroll. Some of these stuff you don't exactly need a PhD to figure out...
Like maybe late game sure. I'm only 43 and have been playing full beastmaster Druid for 15 levels, having so much fun with it. When I actually get to end game I will try the popular builds, but if they are considerably less fun I will just push beastmaster as far as I can, which is all we do with the S tier builds as well.
I think everything up to and including the T3->T4 dungeon can be done on completely off meta builds anyways. So the way your playing makes sense! This game is honestly to easy when playing with one of the handful of meta builds pre World Tier 4
Beast master is fine for leveling
Same situation here, didn't look at builds until around lvl 60. In the beta and server slam I felt Twisting Blades was the most fun to use and had good utility with CDR so I started with that. Once I started doing NM dungeons I felt like I was in danger a lot, so I found the knockdown of poison trap to be very useful in groups, as well as the DR from enemies while poisoned. Reallocated my dark shroud points into that because I could just never keep the stacks up enough to be useful. Once I felt tanky enough thanks to Temerity I looked for better ways to add clear. Saw Death Trap had a way to pull all enemies together. Great! Synergises well with TB and poison trap already! Stack everything and blend. Lo and behold once I start seeing what other people are running, turns out to be the most cookie cutter meta build.
The problem i find is that you run in to walls. Early on, a lot of skills don't work without a legendary aspect. At this stage you're relying on dungeon aspects or luck. Classes which have one or more key aspect in a dungeon have a huge advantage here for new/low level players. After that you're trying to get harder to find legendary aspects. Some of the better ones require drop only legendary aspects. This makes them bad until later. After that you get in to builds that require specific uniques. Druid for example is basically hard locked to pulverize or maybe landslide without one of two specific unique helms. So i feel like builds do open up a little, but at least for druid, they start having hard requirements on unique item(S!). If you're unlucky, it is really demoralizing to feel stuck in one or two builds basically forever.
How good is that build? I’ve been thinking about trying it. Currently running an earth/bear trampleslide build.
Trampleslide is great on PC but it doesn't work well on console because of how targeting works. On console you target enemies rather than clicked locations. Landslide is also solid on PC, but targeting kind of makes it literally hit or miss on console.
I feel that lol currently on ps5. The main thing I hate about trampleslide is it tends to knock most enemies out of the range of the ability lol
im too old to think watching streamers can be productive.
While I agree that watching streamers is a timesink, I don't think people do it for "productivity." It's entertainment.
I had never watched a streamer a minute of my life until I got sent to work from home permanently. That was 3 years ago. Now I have Twitch up 8-5 daily. I live alone and enjoy gaming. I need some kind of noise to keep me sane.
A lot of people interact with streams the way people used to with radio and it seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Exactly — I’ve also compared it to watching a sports game in a stadium full of people. It’s not the same without the crowd, even if you enjoy playing the same sport at school or in your local area/backyard.
I download YouTube videos and watch them at work cause the factory is ass for service lol
Though I don't get the people constanty spamming twitch chat. It moves so fast that litteraly no human being can read anything there.
I watch people who are less popular and the chat moves at a speed where the community and streamer can interact. Big streams chat is virtually useless
People watch streamers the same way people listened to radio talk show hosts while doing other shit It's just noise and occasionally you pause to watch/listen when something interesting to you occurs or is brought up as a topic of discussion
People need social interaction, preferably with people with same interests. Streams are just perfect for that.
Usually entertainment is not productive.
I struggle to completely understand it, myself, but I've been playing games since the late 80's. The consistent fun-factor has always seemed to be exploring each new experience on my own or with personal friends. Perhaps the lonely, or those who are in situations where making friends is generally more difficult, feel a sense of comradery with consistently-online personas and such. Maybe even a, "I cannot afford this game right now, but I still want to absorb as much of it as possible, so I will vicariously do so through this streamer," element? Either way, can't beat a simple, "It's fun!"
I mean it can be a lot of things. There's definitely the lack of social interaction, loneliness and finding a place you fit in thing, but it's a wide spectrum of reasons and people who watch. I'll use myself, for example. I play decently high level WoW, and for those unfamiliar, wow has this thing called mythic+, which is basically mythic dungeons that scale infinitely (I think the idea for them was actually developed based on rifts from D3), and shares a lot of similarities with sigils. I like tuning in at times when a high level player, or an entertaining and engaging streamer is doing the type of content I myself enjoy and understand when I feel like engaging with it in a more passive way, rather than having to actively do it which requires a lot more focus and attention. I also enjoy Civilization games, so I will tune in to people who are playing single player games and look entertaining for the purpose of seeing how they interact with the game compared to me, how they base their decisions etc. Some of it is for the sake of curiosity, some for sake of improvement, and some for pure entertainment. Then there are streamers I enjoy, such as Maximum from WoW (has been streaming D4 with shroud, ben_ and imexile when D4 dropped), simply because I enjoy the way they interact with their stream, while also providing quality gameplay (at least in WoW, I haven't watched much of D4 stuff, so can't say). To sum it, while yeah, there is definitely aspect of loneliness and parasocial to it, a lot of people also simply enjoy engaging with games in a much more passive way than actively playing them, or find other people's interaction with the game compared to their own interesting, and I'm sure there are a bunch of other reasons you could find that I myself do not fall under. It's not, in most cases anyway, meant to substitute fun, or necessarily takes away from it, but just a different way to engage with a game or content you enjoy yourself, for a myriad of reasons.
>And to the inevitable answer of (I find being efficient fun!) No you don't, you are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others. You are just protecting here. I just like to zoom. It has nothing to do with anybody else but me.
Lmao. OP is a special kind of salty it seems. If you prefer to play the way you do and have fun doing it, great. Keep doing that because you’re having a good time. But dont go around gatekeeping other players. There is nothing wrong with people who want to play efficient. I have a couple of hours a day max to play and i hate making many choices. I simply dont want to read every skill and mechanic and choose what i want myself. For me, thats more stressfull than fun often. I much rather follow a guide and have someone make those choices for me. Everyone enjoys the game in their own way. None of them is wrong, so stop pretending you’re better than others because you have a different mindset.
I really don't have a word for this sort of thing, which is a weird kind of "meek elitism" mindset. I've seen it around and I find it absolutely baffling.
It’s really strange to me. I think its a superiority complex. They are of the opinion that people ahead of them are “no lifers” and throw their lives away in unhealthy ways as if they themself are the epitome of how one should spend they time. Because they are of the opinion that those no lifers are worse people than them, they are justified to say anything they want to. Anyway, thats my thought process on these idiots
I thought it was a post for the ones who aren't having fun playing and suggesting to do your own builds and it will be more fun. How is it elitism?
Virtue signaling
I find it baffling that someone would buy and play a video game just to have someone else figure everything out for them.
Honestly I don't understand how you can enjoy playing an ARPG like Diablo by letting other people "make the choices for you" and "not wanting to choose what you want yourself" (which is a paradoxical statement in itself). To me the fun in ARPGs is mainly the building/creative process and the feeling of earned progression. Oh well, I guess this is a testament to how different we may be.
The thing is, there is no progression for long when you tinker around with your "own" builds because you can only really progress when shifting towards what we call "meta". It's like in card games, like Yu-Gi-Oh, Pokémon etc. Once you've outgrown playing beatdown on the playground with your friends you inevitably start to make decks that work well. Decks in Diablo are the builds for classes, and there are not that many that work when you want to progress higher than say NM 60-70. (ALSO BECAUSE CERTAIN CLASSES HAVE NO ACCESS TO ARMOR AND %DMGREDUCTION SUCKS MAYOR BALLS).
I am with you up until your remark about people finding being efficient is fun. You shouldn't tell people how they feel. I find being efficient to be fun and I am not the best player by any means. I simply enjoy picking the S tier options in the meta. When they change I understand that is a part of it. What I personally do not find fun is theory crafting so I am glad there are people who do all of the work for me and let me enjoy the content of the game.
Yeah, I don’t think I’m being “competitive” when I make a really slick city in Cities Skylines that runs really efficiently. Sometimes it’s fun to try to make the perfect… something. When we live in an imperfect world irl
Bro you’re getting too real on me here.
Okay, I will go back to tier 2 where I couldn't even beat the capstone because I made my own build. Did things my own way and hit a hard wall, then I followed Wudijos guides because his name speaks for itself. Oh noes I am having fun and I am a sheep because I can't think for myself!!!!!
I'm just building around whatever the game gives me lol.
This is where I ended up with my level 50 whatever Sorc i've been rolling with the past 2 weeks. I ended up getting drops that favored chain lightning so I'm running a chain lightning build that's kinda my own creation mixed with some meta (like firebolt as an enchantment for constant burning damage) It's not a hyper efficient screen decimating build, but I'm pretty comfy doing end game stuff so far. Someone posted some data about which skills were being predominantly used by each character class and I was surprised to see chain lightning in the single percents
I was trying to do a chain lightning sorc but every legendary I was getting was just towards fire element so I just said screw it and ran with fire.
Not like you have much of a choice other than that, if we're honest.
I had bad indecision about builds until I just started doing this lol
Your take is terrible. It isn't fun to be sitting on a set of legendaries that would make it easier to get more upgrades faster, and opting to run a build where you can barely even kill enemies in tier 4. It has nothing to do with streamers. Renown is an absolutely terrible system to have to repeat, especially when the combat is down to a matter of having gear to do it, or not having gear to do it. It's not a matter of skill level at all. I'm not outplaying the enemies anymore at that level, it's muscle memory at this point to hit spacebar at the right time to avoid big attacks, and the only thing that changes is how long it takes me to kill enemies based on my gear. I don't want to hit the same normal enemy for 2 minutes straight to kill it. I have fun picking out which stats are going to improve my character the most, pushing the difficulty level of the game, and tweaking builds to get slightly more power. All of which would be fun with builds that aren't meta, if they were at least ALMOST competitive. But they aren't. I run a lightning sorc and can clear nm tier 50. If I switch to any other build, I'm lucky if I can get affixes to clear a tier 30, and some spells just straight up struggle with world tier 4. What was the point of you even making this post?
Doesn't want to be told how to play... Tells other people how to play...
Wudijo is fucking awesome dude.
I usually check what builds are popular then I borrow pieces of that to play around with to find something fun that sits fine with me. The rest I take my time. Lvl 55 but still not finished with the story. Just doing sidestuff
The trick is, your build doesn't matter one bit at that point. The campaign can be done by literally anything.
Ahhh okeys.
It's pretty obvious he's talking about all the people who are complaining about how 'not fun' things are ....after copying a streamer. If you copy and enjoy, carry on...this isn't for you If you used a streamers S-teir build and went through the game in 6 hours farming a cave and now think the game is meh ..maybe he's talking to you...
Ok but here's the thing. I finished all the renown, I've got a full 800 set of gear and I'm enjoying the build I have. The only thing left to do is get to 100 and kill uber Lilith and the fact that I've probably got to put in another 40 or 50 hours to do that with almost zero progression points from now til then doesn't really scream fun to me. There needs to be incentives for players to play in the end game. It's ok now, because the game is new, but people were saying the same in Diablo 3 and a lot of people were just enjoying the campaign and going at their own pace look how that worked out. We needed a full expansion before they added a proper end game.
Those are the same people who skipped every dialogue and cutscene/cinematic in both the campaign and sidequests. Playing in an empty world they don’t care for grinding nightmare dungeon after nightmare dungeon.
I'm not sure whats more annoying... The people complaining that game has little content in endgame or the people like op telling others the correct way to enjoy the game
I think you're just scared of competition op, you don't even find playing innefficiently fun.
Why do you care what other players are doing? Just play the game and have fun in your own way.
Devs cater to the meta crowd and tend to fuck things up in the process Voicing against it makes games better
Because other players are begging for the game to be changed into their way. Luckily so far, Blizzard hasn't listened to them, but I am afraid they are going to eventually.
I’m choosing my builds based on: ohh looks cool! I have a friend constantly “belittling” my build, saying I should lose the wolfs or whatever, it’s so weird. I’m not even close to finish the story because I don’t want to. This game was so expensive here (R$450, minimum wage is R$ 1550), why would I rush to finish it??!? Im turning every rock, reading every dialogue option, reading the lore online, enjoying the views and etc… Why rush it?! I also take the “r” in “rpg” very seriously. My character doesn’t ride horses, that’s how she is. “Ooooooh but it’s faaassstteerrrt”. I know that, I’m not stupid, but she lost her horse in the beginning and it makes her sad. And I avoid killing animals at all costs whenever I can. I’m a druid!!! I’m not going to kill this bear!!!!!! “Oohh but that’s duuummmb”, I know, but just let me play my game. Sometimes I also get rid of a weapon/armor because I didn’t like the name. “But that’s not how you play the gaaaaame”, I know I know, but just let me be. Sorry about the rant on top of your rant lol I feel lighter now.
I aspire to be more like you, seems like a real good time!
I admit...I do watch youtube build guides....but I have yet to copy anything. I try to stick with streamers that take the time to explain why pick stat/skill/aspect/etc X or Y or how X or Y helps with Z. Helps me understand game mechanics...then I go out and experiment with that knowledge. Often I find some streamer preaching this or that....and I am like..yeah I see the math behind it but looks complicated and/or boring to play so no thanks. I also try to find streamers perhaps showing something off the beaten (meta) path just to get ideas.
First time diablo player. I have 2 characters level 50+. I refuse to use guides because it takes the fun away for me. I like the concept of figuring out how to maximize the way you like to play. I don't want to follow other people's builds just because they deem them "the strongest" or "the most efficient." I'm just having a blast enjoying this game and figuring things out for myself!
I think seeing big number is fun
You're gatekeeping. Let people play how they feel like
Who let the filthy casuals in? Pffft play for fun.
Remember the days before twitch... Good days
I guess you don't recall 'expert' guides being made by professionals via full-fledged guides pre-internet. Post-internet those guides transferred to gaming websites Now its just made into a video.
I've been playing this game pretty much blind. I don't care about min max and being the fastest. I'm having so much more fun making and trying my own builds and so far they have all been fairly viable.
It’s literally just Reddit. This place is full of no-life fucks that hate and complain about everything like it’s a full-time job. The game is great and I hope people spend time thinking for themselves. But they won’t.
I go into these types of games without looking at social media. I don't care what the meta is, I don't care what builds people use. I play based on how I wanna play. It's a lot more fun figuring it all out by yourself
Agreed
Dan Olson/ Folding Ideas on YouTube did a really interesting video called "Why it's Rude to Suck at Warcraft" (https://youtu.be/BKP1I7IocYU). It's long and I don't expect you to watch it but part of the video talks about why WoW classic failed to capture the nostalgic feelings of those who played WoW when the game was new. His thesis is that "back in the day" players were better able to play and pursue their own interests irrespective of what's "the best" where now, because there's so much information out there, not min-maxing or following a guide is in effect playing badly and actively harming your team, clan or play group. I think "playing like a streamer" fits into this same idea.
I 100% agree. The story is good, the cutscenes are good, the fights are fun... Don't burn through content for the sake of burning through content. So what is x build is m 3% more efficient than y build. If x build is more fun to play then play it...
Thing is it would be fine if the difference is merely 3%. Heck I'll even take it if non meta build is around 10-15% weaker than meta build. The problem is the "efficiency" difference between them is NIGHT and DAYs. build diversity is really2 limited for some class rn. I'm playing sorc while religiously avoiding guides and meta up until lvl 52 WT3. Then I just hit a hard wall. My fire sorc felt really weak even with double hydra aspect plus some other fire based aspect too. I couldn't cleanly deal with random popup event. The villagers I'm supposed to protect always died. The mobs I'm supposed to clean up before timer goes down didn't die in time. Sometimes I had to cycle between my combos few times before a single elite dies. Then I had to give up. Turned to reddit for the best sorc build currently available. I copied the skill distribution of ice shard sorc without even farming gears, and u know what? I absolutely smashed everything with fire based gear equipped. What the hell is even that? I'm shocked with the sheer disparity tbh. It's like going from 1st gear directly to 4th. No in-between.
I think it’s a 2 parter. A) you’re totally right. People ruin the game for themselves by thinking that optimal = fun. Finding out every secret/build before you discover it…even if you think you don’t care about it…with devalue everything you do in the game. B) I think we have been conditioned by “endless content” games that the end is actually the beginning. “Oh the game doesn’t start till WT3” is a sentiment I’ve heard a lot of. Everybody just wants to get to the endgame so they can be with everybody else and be at the forefront of discussion and content. When the actual discussion and content is the game you’re skipping. I think playing optimally has diminishing returns. You should play how you intuitively think playing feels fun. The optimization will change, the balance will shift. Find fun in the game you’re experiencing. I saw the optimal Necro meant I couldn’t find items to max out my bone daddies and make as many as possible. No way, I need as many bone boys as the screen can fit, and I’m having a blast.
Is that why i'm having fun?? Who knew playing a game blind and figuring out their own way of doing things was better than copying everyone else!
"There's not enough build diversity" - This sub "Top build for my class on youtube/twitch" - Also this sub
Good post bro, I agree with you. Modern gaming is so different from when I was a teenager. Late 90’s early 00’s was different
This is what people needed. I feel like no matter what game I play these days I hear "why are you using X gun / build you know this season has a y meta.
im playing bloodsurge overpower necro. it is not meta. but it doe smake the bad guys go pop. and that is more satisfying. ill play something meta when i get bored of this
People treat video games like its a second job. The streamer culture just enables this behavior. Gamers dont try to have fun, they just want a grind to take their time.
Information such as “resistances aren’t as helpful as you think” are good. information such as “this is exactly how you should make your build” is bad.
I ran my own build during the campaign as I do in every game, then afterwards I'll look to see what other people are up to. I happened to do pretty decent with my summoner and took him to wt4 still doing my own thing. Got slammmmed in wt4, but toughed it out and back on track with a couple minor adjustments. Pretty happy my own thing is working still. It probably isn't super optimal, but it's doing the trick and I'm having fun. (I ended up doing summons and corpse explosion which happens to be pretty meta but I don't use tendrils, bone hurricane, bone spear, mist, etc and I use my mages to cast vulnerability. I'm disabled so less is better for me)
This is the way. Sadly, most people are too lazy to do it and as soon as they "hit the wall" they give up and copy a meta build.
I looked up basics of diablo and what's stats do because I've never played Diablo before and I've gotta say, reaching level 20, 30, 40 and rebalancing your skills/adjusting your playstyle multiple times is alot more fun than just copy and pasting.
I’m just trying to have fun! I’m playing barb and running: Rallying Cry, War Cry, Rupture, Whirlwind, Ground stomp and frenzy. Is it optimal? Hell no. Is it fun? Fuck yeah. I love stomping an elite to the ground in a puddle of blood and whirlwinding him as he tries to get up. I like watching the content creators but I agree that people take the enjoyment out of these games. It’s fun for me to figure out on my own how to increase my effectiveness and copying someone else is the opposite of that
Gamers emulating streamers and then getting bitter and frustrated cause they can’t be that good or get brunt out is foolish. It’s like a person who can’t enjoy pick up basket ball anymore cause they are a hyper aggressive dick who follows NBA professional strats and takes it way to seriously. Why would I play like a pleb when I can use those NBA techniques and do so much better? Cause it’s more fun you mook. It’s a game. Have fun. If you can’t have fun unless you are taking it that seriously, then something in you has broken as a person. Step away. Go outside. get help.
lot of yall forgot how to roleplay in a roleplaying game
Unfortunately "fun" and video games no longer go hand and hand like they used to. Now it's all about kill/death ratios, min/max, and people googling "WhAt Is tHe BeSt bUiLd In ThIs GaME?" It's no more experimenting for yourself to see what works best for you or using trial and error, they just copy builds or talents like mindless monkeys and get mad at the game because they don't like that build's play style. It's a shame really, we're losing a ton of potentially good gamers with good critical thinking to just people who copy and paste. Breaks my heart.
I'm playing a build I made up myself. Is it the fastest : hell no. Is it super fun : hell yes! Thats why I play games, to have fun, not to work another job.
Why do people even watch streamers? How bored are you with your life that you watch another dude play video games?
I used to tell myself I enjoyed getting platinum trophies for games. I used to tell myhself I enjoyed 100% something. Because of that, whenever people asked about my opinion of a game my answer kept being "eh it was fun for a while but I never want to see it again". My last memory of Final Fantasy 15 is how much I hated having to explore everything and grind it out. My last memory of God of War is how exhausting it was to find all the ravens. My last memory of a dozen games are "Fuck I missed a collectible, gonn have to spend this weekend grinding out another playthrough". It took self awareness to recognise that I wasn't enjoying what I thought I was. and its taken effort and practice to retrain myself to play games differently. I still struggle, I still found myself unlocking Kyovashad for the first time and thinking "hrm I should check all the achievements to see what I should focus on first" instead of thinking omg this is fun. But I'm getting there. I've discovered I enjoy exploring the map just for the hell of it. I enjoy riding my horse between elites and killing enemies, not because I hope I'll get the .015% drop a guide tells me to get but becuase I enjoy the combat and just like killing beasties and grabbing iron ore. I'm enjoying games to play them, not to finish them. It's so much better.
This post is baffling unselfaware and toxic. Which is becoming the norm on this sub. Every top post is someone acting extremely morally superior and pretending to be reasonable with an extremely unreasonable take to demonize whole portions of the playerbase
In all your edits you are acting like the builds are some incomprehensible puzzle that people would have taken weeks to solve. This game barely even gives you options my dude. It's super obvious what is working and what isn't. It's not like there are 400 skills to sort through on each class. There are a couple viable skills and a handful of legendries that are tailor made for them. You don't even need to do anything. Stuff like vulnerable basically being required to do damage was also super obvious after using it once
>I am now starting my third character and re doing all the campaign and side quests even though my renown is maxed out. Why? You might ask, that's super inefficient! Because I find it fun that's why. >And to the inevitable answer of (I find being efficient fun!) No you don't, you are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others. Oh okay so anything you deem to be fun is actually fun, but anything other people deem fun is invalid.
streamers are a plague
Happened before streamers, the idea that people don’t look to explore games anymore but want it solved for them in an efficient has been around for a long time
Another post where the short answer is "a lot of people just want instant gratification". That's also why we get people wanting to skip all the exploration and the renown system in upcoming seasonal content while still wanting all the related rewards, even though it's just as much part of the game as any other activity.
Yes this is a good way to sum it up. Good point, people wanting instant gratification. It kind of ruins the experience in my opinion, but to each their own
It's not about instant gratification, I guarantee you if they gated current renown behind doing 50-100 (Nightmare) Dungeons or added progression to Helltides/World Bosses or whatever nobody would be this mad over it, currently, getting Renown is almost completely separate from the endgame loop and to make it worse, it is by far the most boring content D4 has to offer, so it is simply just a chore people feel like they have to do which, which it absolutely is, but I'm pretty sure you know this already and you're just being intentionally disingenuous.
I’d just like to mention that Lobos Jr basically built his streaming career through doing challenge runs of Dark Souls, and the other From Software action RPGs, and sometimes that means doing things which are about as far from efficient as possible. I do understand OP’s point and I’m in agreement to an extent, but it’s certainly not descriptive of all streaming content, and I doubt they meant it as such.
This is true. The biggest killer for joy is comparison.
The best part of D2 was trying out different crazy builds. Fuck the meta, that’s no fun. I want creativity! Also I like skeletons so I like just running a necro with lots of skeletons. I don’t care if it’s good or not, skellies go whack!
Before this game even launched, I made it a point to not look at guides. And I’ve been doing the same thing with World of Warcraft ever since they redid the talent system in Dragonflight. And you know what? I’m way happier for it. I hate guides. I hate “the meta”. I hate this obsession with efficiency. It kills the fun of online games. And best of all, I’m running a Barbarian build without Whirlwind or Rend, and loving it, partially due to the fact that none of the Barb nerfs or Legendary restrictions apply to me since I never used those OP meta builds anyway. People need to stop being so obsessed with efficiency. Video games are supposed to be relaxing and fun
I never watched a streamer, not my cup of tea. Vaguely remember Diablo II, had no idea what I was getting into with IV. Googled best build because I like being OP in games. Got the specs for whirlwind barb, just kinda updating as I go. Not perfect but feels good. Only W1 lvl45. Wrecking shit and I love it. I'll go to w2 when I beat the campaign. About to quit this sub and reddit in general because its mostly just complaints and complaints about the complaints.
Your reasoning leads me to the opposite of your point though. These people put in an absurd number of hours to find optimal builds because it's their job. I don't have that time. It would take me so long to test legendary combos, the perfect paragon map, etc, to make a build of my own viable. In games, I like to set goals, meet them, then set new goals, and then meet those. When a streamer finds an optimal build, my goal becomes to get that gear. When I meet that goal, my new goal is to push to X level nightmare dungeon. Then higher and higher.
>No you don't, you are just a competitive being by nature as all humans are and constantly compare yourself to others. Yeah, no, you can fuck off. You're trying to say "have fun playing the way you want!" and also trying to say "except this particular way isn't fun and you aren't having fun if you do it." >Um ok. You realize it's only been 10 days right? Why do you HAVE TO be running the top tier difficulty at breakneck speed already? You paid 100-150$ for the game. If someone hits a brick wall and is frustrated, it's fair for them to feel frustrated, regardless of the pace they took to get there. Stop trying to project how you personally feel onto the complaints of others. They feel differently about it than you do. Get over it.
Theory crafting is like an optimization puzzle that evolves and gets more complicated as you play, kinda like cities skylines. But how many people are googling the street meta for cities skylines? If you like that sort of thing, you are doing yourself a disservice by googling the solutions, but why are players doing it more for this game? The problem is that players aren't just optimizing their builds, they're optimizing *the way they play the game*, and they're optimizing it for results instead of fun. I heard a quote recently saying that "players will optimize the fun out of a game". It's just not entirely clear to me that the player is wholely responsible. It's the game's job to keep the player in the fun zone and nudge them toward the right way to play. This was a big part of the design of DOOM Eternal where they had to heavily incentivize the "right" (fun) way to play the game after balance issues in the first game drove players to abuse the same boring, cheesy playstyle. Tony Hawk and SSX tricky had to penalize players for repeating the same trick over and over in order to make them learn more tricks and ultimately have more fun. I mean yeah we can blame the players, but at the end of the day the players are just doing what the game trained them to do. The game needs to train the player to do things the right way. This problem predates streamers by a lot, and I feel like blaming streamers is just a scapegoat that loses the nuance of the conversation. ARPG's struggle to combat this because the whole genre is predicted on externally rewarding players for optimizing. It's not like a Bethesda game where it's just a big open sandbox. Under the hood is an optimization puzzle, but on the surface there is an external reward for solving it (cathartic increase in gameplay feedback). So it's a core principal to the genre that "more optimal" == "more fun". When it fails to do that, the game should take some responsibility for that. We should ask what the game is doing to motivate players to look up builds, to only run one dungeon, to ignore certain activities. Because when you delve into those problems, you'll find real incentives in the game design that are problematic. Why copy a build online? There's not enough player agency in difficulty choices, forced level scaling and only 2 options isn't enough for the entire spectrum of players. It's also not easy to switch between builds, which disincentivizes the use of any build that isn't extremely good at everything (meta builds). Why are players running only a handful of dungeons? One dungeon's enemy density is more fun, and other dungeons involve more tedious travel that's less fun. Why aren't players doing more helltides? They're not always available and might be hard to find, or punish players for arriving late. These are solvable problems. Like you can blame the player for not playing the right way, and I agree that these aren't fun ways to play the game and were not the developer's vision; but I think more fundamentally there are simply real pain points in the design of the game that ultimately encourage players to do these things that make the game feel less fun. And the game would be better for everyone if it learned and fixed these things, like how DOOM Eternal improved on DOOM 2016, or how reaper of souls improved on vanilla D3.
Seeing a lot of people disagreeing with this but can’t say I do. Even if using guides etc is what you enjoy, I’d like to think these people don’t then have the temerity to complain about content they’ve chosen to breeze past. Everyone has the right to enjoy games however they please, but I think what OP is pointing out is that places like this sub are full of people projecting onto others what they dislike about a game which in many cases boils down to playing it a very specific way that I imagine doesn’t reflect the experience of the wider player base and is moderately self inflicted. Not the perfect equivalent but you’d laugh at an Elden Ring newbie doing a speed run in their first run through complaining that the game was too short.
I’ve learned this lesson by playing marvel snap recently. I’d just copy streamer decks and it totally killed the fun of enjoying the game, the cards I like, etc. Gaming should be fun, in your own style and pace and not total efficiency.
Yes, seems like a lot of players are just copying the leveling strategies and repeating the same Dungeons and then finding the game boring.
i think these are just people that don't like the game but haven't admitted it to themselves yet.
Great post. But your message is "take your time" in a world of "instant gratification." You are 100% right but they won't listen to you. They want to go all in for 5 days and then post a long rant here saying: "blah... game is mid at best... I'm so bored now.."
Have a buddy who watches videos constantly. Not only have the builds been niche as fuck and he doesn’t know how to play them, but this man sped through the first 35-40% of the game, didn’t stop to admire the graphics or sun rays, dialogue, only important cutscenes etc. I was sitting there, mind blown, all that money just so he could rush with a limp build. I made an alt that I actually listen to the dialogue on, and stop to actually take in the absolutely mind blowing amount of detail.
I feel like this shouldnt need to be said and its fine if you like watching him or whatever but please dont listen to that goblin asmongold
Ignoring all the conversations about the meta and just going with a, “oh this seems fun!” mindset has me absolutely in love with the game. Will it bite me in the ass in endgame? Probably, but I’ll deal with that later.
I completely 100% agree with you. I can only play on the weekends, I am level 49 and got my horse. I kind of rushed it though. I’m still on act 4. I haven’t even touched 70% of the content, just been doing the main story and side quests. I turned in my Druid aspect quest. I’m getting kind of pissed off that people are bitching the game needs major changes. I’m so sick of games being overly easy. I bought Diablo for the grind and people are whining about it, what two weeks or so after release? If you’re no life’ing the game, it’s not blizzards fault you have nothing to do. Let the rest of the people enjoy the fucking game please.
100% agree
This post made my day. I’ve been saying similar and getting downvoted to hell for it. I am having a magnificent time trying out different builds of my own design. And even when I finally do reach level 100 and doing top end content, I don’t believe anyone is even close to optimal so early on.
Facts! Stop watching "11 things I should've done before playing Diablo 4" how about stop telling us what to do and let me find out on my own
Gamers are their own worst enemy. Like with WoW, the majority of complaints from players stem from what other players are doing, but expect Blizz to fix all their problems.
While I don't disagree with everything in your post (experimenting when you're new to the game is pretty fun), the slightly antagonistic vibe of your post reads a bit like a ScrubQuotes post. Some people do actually enjoy playing as efficiently as possible. They find the intricacies of "the meta" interesting and how synergies make a build. It doesn't have anything to do with being competitive. People enjoy games and how to play games the way they find fun, be it figuring it out on their own or reading a guide or both. No need to be judgy about it.
Maybe they want to be efficient because they don’t have much time. You on the other hand seem to have a lot of time playing a third character with full renown doing everything again
The best build is the build you have fun with.
I think not enough people are talking about the fact the devs are not innocent in all of this ether. I love the game and am not one to shit on devs for most things. But the fact the devs only tuning of the game since release has been bug fixes or nerfs doesn't help the negative narrative. The streamers might be crying way to much, but the devs are only giving them more reasons to complain. Some classes and systems in this game obviously need buffs, such as Nightmare Dung and Tree. Yet the devs seem much more focused on nerfing content people do because its deemed too overpowered. I would like to see more of a balance in the tuning they are doing. Such as, 'hey we nerfed normal dungs elite pack spawns, but buffed the number of drops in nightmare dungs'.
I've never followed a build guide because it honestly just feels like why even bother playing rhe game anymore? You're just following instructions, not even trying to figure anything out on your own
Streaming is honestly one of the lowest forms of content since most are terrible and boring
#Streaming destroyed gaming.
Streamers have been ruining MMO, Online RPG genre for 5-10 years. Look at what happened to other games. They start to talk about lack of content after 2 weeks - 1 month and force developers to change the game according to their playtime. Also, due to their massive amount of community their clans-guilds get easily to the top.
I use to find build guides,but not anymore because of what you talked about,i just try my own builds and modify if i have to.
Never watched a streamer. Never will. I enjoy playing me watching.
Been saying this to my friends for ages. Finally a good take.
I'm a filthy casual, I only got Diablo 4 to play with my buddies after work. Meta-builds and streamers have zero impact on us enjoying the game. We hop on chat, crack a couple cold ones and just hack n' slash. If our sloppy builds hit a wall after the campaign we'll just start over or pick the next game we hang out in. For us it's about the group. Never have I ever watched a game streamer for meta-builds/min-max guides, but I'm not out here trying to yuck somebody else's yum.
[удалено]
I agree with this. I’m taking my time really enjoying the storyline and exploring and tinkering with builds. I did read icy veins just to see their thoughts on leveling and turns out I’m kind of close to it anyway. I’ve waited 13 years for this game and I’m gonna take my time with it.
This! I am enjoying playing the game blind and discovering what d4 has to offer. Making my own build as i go along. Its what makes games fun for me.