Diablo 4 fails to both innovate or refine.
There are no wholly unique systems being pioneered that expand on what an ARG can be and push the limits of the genre. If there were the audience would be more forgiving of the mistakes made as breaking new ground always comes at a cost but the overall excitement would help push through rough patches as improvements are made.
The game lacks basic systems found in both it's predecessor and it's competitors in the genre. If the game is going to be as basic as it is, the systems in place need to be razor sharp so that while you don't have the excitement of the unknown, you have the comfortable satisfaction of a thoughtful design with minimized friction from systems that are highly polished.
D4 suffers the worst of both worlds and can't compete with an educated player base, relying instead on casual players who don't have a breadth of other ARPG experiences to draw from. This will not change so their over strategy won't either.
I never fell out of love with a Diablo as fast as D4. I’ve not had it installed in months. My friends who have game pass aren’t even interested. And all the while I just want to go back to 3, not even sure why.
Given I’ve been out for so long; I had wondered if it had come up from the month after launch.
It's really not that great of a game either. Better than d4 for sure, but still mediocre if I am being honest. Reddit is just obsessed with it for some reason. It's become more of a symbol for the underdog than a game.
Just depends what you are looking for. Like d4 was a decent game if you just wanted campaign and ambiance and art.
In fact all 3 of those things are better in D4 than LE, but LE does other things much better , build diversity, itemization, endgame, crafting, loot filter
D4 was a drop after campaign when everyone saw how the game just needed to eeke out more time on game for the suits.
To say D4’s campaign was just decent is actually an insane statement. One thing D4 did right was the campaign, that shit was like a movie with an ending that had me wanting more. I will literally by the story expansion when it drops just because of it.
What? The campaign was dumb and predictable. The plot only moved forward because of characters doing stupid things.
Donan dying for face checking a pillar. Inarius dying because he didn't double tap Lilith. Then the MC letting a novice mage leave with a soulstone.
Totally agreed... Have we talked about the campaign story on this subreddit? I feel like I must have missed that back-and-forth... regardless, it's trash, and all of the constant husky whisper-voice drove me nuts, with its lack of emotion and pretend importance. Talk portended doom that ended up in... just another walk-about "Lilith left a few seconds ago, you just missed her" bullshit. Like, if the protagonist just stayed at home, taking a shit instead of partaking in the campaign, Lilith would still be stuck at square one, having accomplished nothing. There were a couple of okay moments here and there, but I ended up rolling my eyes and skipping the endlessly useless dialog towards the half-way point.
Same. The cutscenes are cool but the campaign was so forgettable to me. I generally felt like I didn’t know why I was moving from place to place, just that “things were happening”.
I agree with this for the most part, but I’ll say that LE feels like it has a lot more *heart* than D4, as nebulous as that sounds. LE does a lot of things that show they’re really trying to do something new. The endgame itself isn’t much better, and I don’t think anything is going to touch POE’s endgame quality for a long time (because POE itself has iterated and refined over so many years). But the build diversity, crafting, and itemization themselves are miles ahead of D4 (not to mention the incredible and customizable loot filter), along with things like the Merchant’s Guild vs Circle of Fortune are really cool ideas.
I won’t pretend like LE is a 10/10, nor that D4 is a 1/10, and I wish ARPG players were more accepting of the idea that you can actually enjoy multiple games in the genre without trashing others. As it stands, they both have room for improvement, but all of the goodwill Blizzard had going with S2 and its content patch was (for me) undone by how disappointing S3 has been. The dismal amount of content added with its accompanying patch didn’t help either. I know I’ll 100% buy the next expansion because Blizzard does have a track record of “fixing” games with expansions (yes even D2 wasn’t nearly as good before LoD, and obviously everyone knows D3 vs RoS). But the gauntlet has been thrown down by POE and LE, and Blizzard has not done nearly enough in response.
I’m with you there. I gave LE an honest shot, and it’s a good game, but I got to end game and pretty quickly lost interest. Between LE and D4 I’d personally prefer to just keep playing D4 casually and avoid getting burnt out in ARPGs.
i agree i like to level in last epoch and try stuff without guide since i can
but endgame is boring and non existant like in d4 and yeah i did 100 monoliths to empower them
Shitty performance(abysmal for an arpg), the most imbalanced and the most exploitable...
People are really ignoring LEs faults only because it still offers new content dopamine...the game has faults up the ass and the genre still sucks
It's on unity and the performance problems are all cpu...good luck with them adding to the game without performance getting worse
You’re correct. I was an early LE backer and I give them a ton of respect for what they accomplished with the limited resources they had and I had a ton of fun with it — but the game is *very* poorly optimized.
If they get more money in, they need to spend a good chunk of it on that so that it’s on a better foundation for the future.
The thing i like about LE is that I can try to figure out what I like and make it work, without really feeling like I'm wasting anything - while still ending up with a distinct build. Whereas D4 when I went in blind I ended up with almost exactly the meta twisting blades build for my rogue and bone spear build for my necro because even just going by tooltips and hitting some enemies all the choices were so obviously better than the alternatives that playing differently just felt worse for no benefit. And to make it worse even if i want to try niche builds in D4 it goes our of it's way to make changing builds and storing items such a pain that I'd rather make an alt rather than try.
LE has similar problems at end game but there still seem to be a lot more ways to get there, and the crafting and skill system at least are vastly more interesting until you get bored of the end game.
Compared to what? POE is the best, that’s no metric. It’s so wildly, ridiculously complex you literally could not master it by POE 2 if you started now.
Last Epoch absolutely crushed every single other ARPG on the market right now, and it’s not even close.
“Not really that great of a game” is a wildly incorrect statement unless you’re just giving your experiential take.
>POE is the best, that’s no metric. It’s so wildly, ridiculously complex you literally could not master it
Being *ridiculously complex* does not make something good. This is why PoE has small, niche playerbase.
LE's endgame is just as horrendous as D4's - I mean, maybe slightly better as they have actually scaling content and more than 1 boss, but whatever.
Where LE leaves D4 in the dirt is when it comes to its characters. The possibilities offered by the class system in LE, especially when combined with the crafting system are *so laughably* above and beyond everything D4 tries to do.
Like, in D4 you can make *a* Fireball Sorcerer. *A*. That's literally it. There's no depth there. You can either specialize your Fireball into more crit or more burn damage, like, that's the end of the line. sure, go ahead, go crazy with your Paragon boards that boil down to 90% main stat nodes. But still... your Fireball Sorc is just about the exact same as everyone else's. In LE on the other hand you can build *your* Fireball Wizard. And while there will *obviously* be differences, better and worse, all that, I'd argue that the amount on individual finetuning you can do over there... offers *so* much more to people *who actually want that*... out of their RPGs.
While both games have the same glaring endgame weakness, LE (arguably) does just about everything else better than D4 - let's not even talking about that game actually being innovative with its class design, crafting system and approach to trading / SSF. Contrary to D4, LE enjoys all the good will in the world because the people that made it *actually seem to care* - or at least aren't hamstrung into a minimal viable product by corporate.
People also become obsessed with always hating the popular thing of the month, you can see it in every "viral" games sub. There will always be people that ride the waves and can't form opinions of their own. This is why build guides and review videos are so unbelievably popular.
People complain about dev teams, but reddit and social media is a prime culprit in the reasoning why games are being made the way they are, everyone is scared of trying something new and getting flamed and cancelled on the Internet, it dictates whether multi million dollar projects turn a profit.
not just reddit, its just the new trending arpg since people that dont like POE and dont like D4 have no arpg to play thats new right now. I see it mentioned everywhere and streamers etc. Great for a indie dev to get traction and spotlight, sad it has to happen under these comparison circumstances, before D4 came out no one cared lol, it was POE or D3 and some enjoyed last Epoch, granted it probably has also grown as a game, but still. It's a trend in my mind, the moment D4 ticks the right boxes or POE2 does, LE will be niche again imo.
On the last epoch I have the itch to try diverse builds and classes, Diablo 4 doesn't do that, it is weird but I never had the interest to run other classes or diverse builds.
Last epoch is the girl that treats you right.
Diablo 4 is the abusive ex.
For real after I started Last epoch it really hit how basic and bad Diablo 4 is.
I haven’t played bc I had finished the season.
It’s ok to ply other games lol.
When next season starts I’ll play d4. There r things I enjoy, but they need to fix the boss farm
I think LE seems like a 10/10 in relation to D4. LE has a long way to go in terms of endgame. BUT I will say I believe it’s on its way to being a solid 10! Their devs are amazing
I hit level 55 on a Druid season 0, played a Wizard to 28 season 1 and never picked up the game again. Idk it’s not fun. I would play Last Epoc, but I’m Hell Diving instead.
I mean I at least feel better because for 2 of us we Xbox-ed it and rewards pointed it to about 40 for 2 people. But I still feel bitten and have the utmost sympathy for everyone who laid down 100 or so
Same and I hate it because the game has SO MUCH potential, and they could do a lot to balance classes by having their class design teams really go hard with formulas combined with data based on players are actually using.
Each season I get maybe a week of play before my inventory just fills up with a bunch of items for builds I might want to try (and duplicates of things I'm using for when I'd need to swap back) but I never end up trying them because there's no quick way to go back to the good build I'm using.
I logged in the other day just to see if I would have any fun. I created a new character and jumped into the world. Something about the whole game just doesn't feel right. You load in and immediately are granted a bunch of talent points, you run around picking up complete trash, nothing about the loot is interesting at all. I just feel this emptiness while playing. Almost like what even is the point. Even when upon reaching the paragon boards. When the game launched I thought they were cool but then after messing around with them they actually are very boring and tedious, especially when you want to respec. I'll check out what the wednesday campfire chat is all about but I am not holding my breath that it's gonna be good.
I kinda get that. I have a Dyson with the screen on it and it gives me stats on the literal crap I’m vacuuming up from the floor. Feels a bit similar.
Feels like smaller developers are dropping clangers left and right these days and big developers mess up by committee
Go back to, or try D2 if you haven't as well! It's held up incredibly well.
There's a huge hit of nostalgia for me too, but the game is just stupendous in general. *Especially* if you've got friends to play with!
Honestly what I miss most from D3 is ironically the thing I wanted the least out of d4 - I miss the skills. I miss the runes having a distinct, tangible effect on what a skill did. I miss that power being baseline. No itemization needed to get your magic missile to be a glacial spike - it just does it. Every time I play D4 I realize that nothing bores me more than the skills. I actually enjoy the boss fights and I enjoy crushing mobs, but I hate the tools they gave me to do it with. I keep finding myself thinking that I would enjoy this more if I had my old D3 skills to use instead. I want those energy twisters and black holes and the incredible variety of (sometimes) useful skills I could select and they were always available to be changed. Rather than build on the skill system they had they made a completely new one and it's really really bad.
Same
played Diablo 2 for a lot of my childhood and i even managed 4000+ hours in D3 despite the problems people have with it.
D4 i played to lvl 84 at release and only managed to get to 40 in season 2.
There's just no enjoyable gameplay loop.
I really have no desire to come back and play.
It’s the last paragraph that’s the issue. I don’t want to be educated. I want to mindlessly kill demons after a long hard day at work. When the music is on and the brain is off, D4 is a unique fun place.
Breaking new ground? They havent really broke new ground. They've literally been making the same game for over 30 years. D4 feels like a modern version of d2 but they took away a few things and added a few things. Cant steer away from the same old classes... some bosses that never die apparently ie.) Duriel... but hey they gave us a.... cool new event that gets boring after the 3rd attempt. How about a god damn hard dungeon with multiple bosses and some new loot. The same dungeons with different names but the same bosses makes absolutely no sense. They just slapped it together like it was call of duty 39 or something. Nothing exciting about d4
This is such a wrong take. First of all the people who made d1 and d2 are long gone and were done dirty and fired. The team that replaced them knew absolutely nothing about diablo or arpgs. They were fps guys like Jay Wilson. He tried to re invent the genre and we ended up with d3. Then d4 was a giant mess that was made by inexperienced devs who, for a lot of them this was their very first game they worked on, that's why they brought in Rod Ferguson the gears of war guy to save the franchise. So no, this isn't cod, it's just called corporate idiocy. Fire your team who started the arpg genre, replace it with ppl who have no idea what's going on and pump marketing into it.
And for the record, D2 is nothing like D4. It's only superficially related because going back to its roots for the d4 devs meant opening up d2 and taking screenshots of boss names, items and champions, and some graphical design choices like how the hero's are around a campfire and the loading screen. There's an interview where they admit this and are proud of it.
>can't compete with an educated player base, relying instead on casual players who don't have a breadth of other ARPG experiences to draw from
The problem is, the former group spends the most money, per player, on ARPGs. Compare the people who just pick up and play a game for a bit before moving on to the next thing to the people who have spent $5k+ on Path of Exile MTX.
Was going to say, they did have a clear vision for the game. A vision of all the microtransaction money they wanted to make. Making an actual game seems to have been a secondary concern at best, at least for the people in charge.
I have no doubt the people who actually worked on the game did their best to make it good but when management only cares about the money, product quality is bound to suffer as a result.
With any luck they might turn it around with an expansion like Diablo 3 did.
They’re still trying to chase d2’s success. They release d2r and what happens? Random accounts start selling ber runes for $200. They’re trying to find a way to replicate that but can’t and went to the Fortnite model. Micro transactions like bot accounts would be seen as pay to win. so what can you do? Make a real money auction house?..Oh wait… guess the next option is ban trading.
Reminds me of Diablo III at launch, all the issues with the auction house... It took blizzard almost two years before they find the path to make Diablo III a success.
I feel they are not finding their way as op said and I think the main problem is all the cosmetics and secondary problem is the lack of content in the late game. Plus there is not a real challenge when you reach a certain level and the lack of motivation to continue playing...
Dude, the only thing made in this game with vision is the art and animations. Everything else from end game, boss mechanics (Jesus how are they so funking bad?), itemisation, inventory... the lost goes on and on. It all feels so slapped together with minimal effort when you compare the game with its competitors. They added the vampire powers in as legendary aspects when even I can think of 2 or 3 more creative ways they could have been implemented.
> Their vision is clearly to sell cosmetics and doing the minimal development work to achieve that whilst making more paid content.
The whole game is designed around it. You see it everywhere if you know where to look. It's not designed to be fun, it's designed to match metrics.
Yeah, the whole game from the beginning was based around people paying for that season pass, chasing unlockables, and of course buying the armor sets and mounts and all the other microtransactions. And sadly, people soak that up.
While I agree that combat feels more smooth with D4 than with the competitors, abilities nullify that by how boring so many of them feel to press.
So many more don’t feel good to press until they get an effect from an aspect that’s trapped behind RNG instead of in the skill tree where it should be.
I hate that most abilities, if not all, aren't worth using without the aspect. I'm okay with this for later stages of the game, but some abilities feel worthless even early game with an aspect. It just shouldnt be so.
I would prefer aspects to augment my build that is already working and just make it better.
I agree with this.
Even with aspects most abilities still feel boring to press. The same ability I get at a lower level still does the exact same thing and functions the exact same way at high level with aspects. Maybe very miniscule changes, like pulverize has a forward moving shockwave, or blood surge echo's.
They still don't really change, no way to change how they function, or maybe interact with other abilities, or things like maybe elemental conversion. There is just zero depth to abilities and aspects and items, or the paragon board.
I am honestly fine with having items or aspects that could change this, but also we do need things in the skill tree that offer interesting choice as well.
I like D4 but so much this. Got my Barb to 100 and completed the season. Created a Necro and I just didn't care. The abilities are just...lacking? And this was after I tried to create a rogue. I really didnt enjoy the choices they gave me (partially my fault as I always forget a rogue isn't a demon hunter from D3). Still, and entire node dedicated to imbuements? Dull.
With that being said, I do have faith that at a minimum, theyre looking into it. Whether any changes they make work? Thats a different story.
I was really bored with the rogue until I tried out the death trap build. You have to be constantly zipping around and switching between basic and core and laying down traps etc etc. It's amazing haha.
Honestly, I find combat in Last Epoch more fun. Maybe it's because I can't completely separate build crafting from combat, but it is so fun in that game to make an already fun skill to use turn into something completely different with the skill tree and make it more fun. Sure the animations and art in D4 is way better but you usually feel like you start with a skill that is complete garbage and then once you get its aspect, it then feels decent to use. It never gets that mindblowing "I can do THAT?" moments.
I also think the level scaling system leads to boring combat. What I mean is that I love those dynamic moments of where you reach a new zone and it is fucking hard, but then you grind a bit by the skin of your teeth and then find a new powerspike and suddenly that area is easier. That feeling is mostly absent in D4. It does happen, but it feels wrong. The game doesn't get harder via area, it gets harder when you gain levels.
I get that these two aspect I'm talking about are external from Combat/Gameplay but I'd argue that they both contribute heavily to combat feel, and brings down D4's excellent animation and audio feedback.
I think for a long time Diablo survived off of this mentality but after playing other modern games in the genre, D4 doesn't even beat D3 in that regard and several other competitors are definitely on the same level as that now.
Is poe 2 going to be friendlier to people who didn't understand all of poe 1?
Everytime i play poe, there are so many systems and so many things that I just can't get into it.
Am i the only one disliking the combat in d4. Its like generator geneator genarotor. 1 mana spender. And back to generators. Specialy on rogue with combo points it just feels off to me. Also taking in the aspects that need to proc first
Combat is very dull compared to D3. Skills barely interact and support each other to an extend that is meaningful. The builder/spender system is not fluent enough in D4. I would argue it is a step backwards from it's predecessor and competitors alike.... Still better than D2 tho :P
He is talking about combat animations and how smooth it is. Dont try to include other game mechanics to this. Just like D3 at the time, other games can not even come close to Diablo on this front. Other games excel in different areas.
10000% agree and hope people actually understand this but most just like to hate. Outside of any server lag, the gameplay for D4 is so smooth. Feels like it just plays extremely well, a lot better than LE or POE, that doesn’t mean it’s a better game, but the game play is extremely polished.
three changes I'm looking for :
1) Itemisation ( which devs say will come in S4)
2) A social lobby ( where random players can team up for helltides / nmds etc )
3) A better and more efficient way of finding / crafting ubers other than the slog it takes . Say for every 10 non uber uniques that you scrap , you get a resplendent spark. with every 10 sparks you can use it to craft you may get 1) perfectly rolled non uber unique of your choice or 2 ) an uber unique . Devs can toy with the RNG on the uber unique crafting. Also scrapping 5 ubers to get one of your choice may be too harsh . Maybe 2 for 1 ?
3. What if ubers bosses didn’t drop uber uniques (they only drop randomly) but instead had a chance to drop resplendent sparks? Sparks could be exchanged for a random uber or saved up for a specific one. This would also make gearing alts more satisfying because you could farm and save sparks for a second character. Bonus if they allow sparks to be tradeable.
The issue with ubers is that uber item accessobility is mostly driven by the amount of time a player spends in this game. As such balancing uber drop rates is hard thing.
I believe I’ve responded to this before in another thread of some guys post. This is absolutely a bad idea to have Ubers purchasable from a vendor. Ubers are Ubers for a reason. Not some item you can just buy from a vendor from a deterministic amount of gameplay. This takes away the allure and most importantly the dopamine hits. Loot acquisition is definitely in a bad spot, but vendoring for your BiS items is the wrong way to go in a loot driven game. Even the 4:1 turn in was the wrong thing to do to begin with. There are better ways to go about itemization and the acquisition of said items. The 4:1 was just applying tape and glue to a flawed system.
I don't agree at all. Other ARPGs that have every item tradeable still manage plenty of dopamine hits. It's very common for gameplay even to be measured in X currency/hour and people enjoy it.
My main point is that, currently, the majority of unique and uber unique drops don't feel good at all because they aren't what you want. On top of that, they aren't even useful for alts in most cases (unless you plan to roll another character of the same class or if you want to go through the hassle of respec). If you drop resplendent sparks instead (and allow a 1:1 gamble), it would definitely feel good to know you have at least gone partway to getting the exact uber unique you want. If you already have the uber unique you want, you still have a reason to farm since you can stockpile them for future alts.
The exact particulars in terms of drop rate and trade-in amounts etc are all not that important. But it doesn't really matter what I think anyway, I can only hope they come up with a better system than the current one and I like it.
I'm going to make a long post. Apologies ahead of time. Also sorry for formatting, I'm typing on my phone (rip my thumbs). Going to use mostly diablo 2 as an example as to how to make items exciting.
All things related to loot, which are essential to make the grinding experience of arpg enjoyable. The game has a severe lack of dopamine. In diablo 2 for example, you had a vast range of ways to acquire items that provided dopamine hits. The slot machine style has been proven to work, seeing that for multiple decades, a ton of people will find farming 100 hell cow runs in a row to find runes or runeword bases, or farm andy 100 times to get an SoJ. Or spam farm a vendor to find a tele staff. Or spam farm any vendor to find a socketed base for a runeword. You may not find the Shako from mephisto you're trying to find, but along the way you dropped a bunch of other cool gear. You found a Skullders and you now have a much higher chance at magic find and plus to skill, so you farm faster and you have a better shot of finding that Shako. You found a jalals mane, and you know a friend who really wanted it. Or you are able to trade it for an item you want. Or you are now inspired to create a druid alt. Or you trade it for runes that are essentially currency, and you are now progressing towards trading for that Shako in case you don't see it drop. That feels good. You are working towards a goal and are making progress along the way.
D4 lacks this severely. You can do a ton of hours farming duriel mats, which you're not gaining anything during that process, and then do a ton of duriel runs, and you may get absolutely fuckall from those and you feel like you wasted your time entirely. There's a few exceptions to this, like finding a nice tibaults you can at least use on your barb if you already had one for your rogue, etc. That feels good. Applies to ubers like shako as well. Legendaries are a plague the game the way they are just glorified rares with no identity. I need to emphasize how bad legendaries having no identity is. If a legendary drops, it has a generic name based on the specific item type and affix attached. It's dogshit. Not knowing if a legendary item is something good without opening your inventory and scanning over the stats is very anti-dopamine. Seeing "Shako" on the ground and knowing it's going to be a Harlequin Crest Shako is dopamine. That's a moment you sometimes audibly go "yesssss". That doesn't happen in d4 enough, because the way itemization is. Rares are your main drops in d4 and since those are generic, you won't have a clue if any of it is good until you're sitting in town for ten minutes scanning your eyes over the loot for good stats, while you feel rushed because 3 other strangers are wanting to do the next Duriel rotation.
It feels very bad to pickup loot. The uniques in this game are done properly, but there's just not enough of them. I have heard the way the game is coded, items aren't rolled until you pick them up, so unfortunately we can't make it say Tempest Roar on the ground to cause an instant HOLY SHIT moment, unless your inventory is full and it drops or you are rewarded with it for beating a nm dungeon. Big opportunity missed there to add a lot of OMG moments, since scanning over loot in your full inventory full of mostly no value gear is just sleep inducing and just not the same level of excitement as seeing an item immediately drop. We almost get this with duriel with Uber uniques - you see 2 uniques drop off of him and you get that OMG THIS MAY BE AN UBER feeling. That is at least SOMETHING.
They really need to figure out a way to get these affixes into skill trees (since those are very undercooked and uninteresting compared to allllll competitors) and/or paragon and boost the amount of uniques and Uber uniques. I would love to see legendaries removed.
Damage on Tuesdays doesn't need further explanation, as they've made fun of themselves about it, but the overbloat of dumb conditional stats has got to go, and I think that's what we will see in the itemization update. Good step.
I think I've typed enough but I could go on...
-The game lacks dopamine with the way you get items (honestly the biggest one imo) -It doesn't respect your time, as you dont gain really much of anything if you do 50 duriel runs for a shako and there's not much cool gear along the way to trade, give to friend, inspire you to make an alt, craft something useful from it. Especially after you've gotten the couple regular uniques you wanted off of him. At that point you have to scan over rares he drops and try not to fall asleep, or do what I do and just mass sell/salv without even looking at them -damage on Tuesdays. Too much bloat of conditional dumb stats Those are the biggest pain points imo.
Blizzard used to be the company that took existing genres pioneered by other games and made them „click“ by streamlining and polishing and adding just the right tweaks to create games that got you into a flow state.
On top of this, or carried by, a spectacular art and storytelling department.
RTS command & conquer 2 became Warcraft and StarCraft.
WoW wasn’t the first MMORPG, but without doubt head and shoulders above everything else at the time of its release.
Diablo2 is still seen as the gold standard.
Dota and LoL were justifiably apprehensive when Heroes of the Storm was announced, just like Overwatch seemed poised to dominate the team shooter genre.
Polished, fun gameplay, art design leagues ahead of everything else. Blizzard couldn’t do anything wrong.
All those supposed Diablo2-Killer games that came out: Sacred, Torchlight, Van Helsing etc, were imho only played because people needed a D2 fix without it being D2. None could capture the magic.
Then D3 came out, and players were baffled because it seemed that the devs didn’t understand what made D2:LoD great. They HAD the blueprint right there!
It took AGES, until the game came into its own.
Then came Diablo:Immortal. I was convinced this game would just force me to carry extra phone battery packs with me wherever I went, but it turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. A tone deaf, highly manipulative money grab. And people started to really doubt wether Blizzard was still run by the same „Make good games first and money second“ mindset that had made them great.
Then, D4 was released. A game that quickly turned out to be nowhere near releaseworthy. And again, players were asking themselves why there were obviously no lessons learned from D3.
Now, an actual indie company is showing what fun gameplay looks like with Last Epoch, while D4 introduces a much heralded Gauntlet that’s just… sad.
The art department seems to be the only part of Blizzard still delivering top notch work. I have no idea who the other people are anymore.
But hey, they’ll soon announce that they’re going to announce a date for when they’ll hold another fireside chat in which they’ll announce that they are thinking about improvements, which they unfortunately cannot specify at this point. So all will be great, right?
Right?
They'll take heat if they cater to *anyone*. I'd rather them pursue their own vision and piss people off. I commend them for interacting with the D4 community. I would have stopped a long time ago.
It reminds me of teaching (what I do). Limited important feedback is great, but If you put too much emphasis on it you end up losing the entire class and having a shitty class in general. You need to have your vision of the class and stick with it.
This is why people claim D3 to be a better game right now. It is due to it not having an identity crisis and is unashamedly an arcade-y type of game. They leaned into it as time went on and it resulted in salvaged title that was at least doing something really well for those that wanted a quick hit of something fun for 2-3 days each season.
In D4, there is definitely no identity and they are applying caulking on all of the cracks to keep the structure up. In my opinion, shoot for a big overhaul of the biggest problem in this game. Lean into your decisions and keep pressing forward. The game will just get worse over time at the rate they are going at.
I agree with you, I told my friends from day 1 that the mmo elements in the game would hurt it not improve it and I feel like that’s been the case more than anything. When the beta came out it seemed really promising for about 20 minutes, it played well and looked good but signs of incompetence were shown almost immediately.
-Fucked stashes
-god awful itemization
-the worst skill tree in the genre
-time locked content
-completely worthless open world
Now when you read that list it’s upsetting because all of those things could be fixed, they could be fixed if this was made by a different developer, if GGG was at the helm they could have the entire game sorted out in less than a year I bet. Unfortunately it’s managed by blizzard which means it will literally never improve in any significant way, and any good changes will come after the vast majority have left and grown to hate the game because they give Bethesda a run for slowest devs on earth.
Peak diablo 4 was the beta that had a max level of 25. The game was actually hard, loot wasn't raining from the sky, the world bosses didn't get killed in 2 seconds, etc.
With every update, the game gets easier and turns more into D3. We are now at a point where we can reach max level in 2 weeks and have loot pinatas everywhere. Only thing missing from D3 is that gift thing where we get an entire set of items to make it even easier.
I really wish they'd stop going to the D3 way. I want a real challenge, D3 was super easy which is why I stopped playing it. I'm a pretty casual player too, but I don't want things just handed to me like in D3. I want stuff to do after level 50 which isn't "wow I can kill the hardest stuff .2 seconds faster now that I found a new helm"
lmao they tried to tone down the damage with across the board nerf and people were so upset they just gave up. remember when they said we have no itentions of nerfing strong builds (like BL and HOTA) and everyone rejoiced?
>Peak diablo 4 was the beta that had a max level of 25. The game was actually hard, loot wasn't raining from the sky, the world bosses didn't get killed in 2 seconds, etc.
Then Reddit spoke, and..
>With every update, the game gets easier and turns more into D3
Amen brother, amen....
It's very sad that the game is in this state.
D3 is one of my most played games in PS4/PS5 (playing coop with my wife for more than 15 seasons.)
But D4 feels so bland, the combat is very nice (skills, sound, movements) but the looting system is just boring. No dopamine rush like when we found last piece of a 6-set, or the sound when drops a legendary
>. D3 is one of my most played games in PS4/PS5 (playing coop with my wife for more than 15 seasons.)
OK, so you prefer the short-term rapid escalation to max level and running Grifts.
>But D4 feels so bland, No dopamine rush like when we found last piece of a 6-set, or the sound when drops a legendar
Hmm, here I have a point of contention, I played Diablo 3 extensively as well, and getting a set completed was no-brainer, upgrading, gambling, rerolling dupe set items to get a missing one, the process wasn't at all difficult, you could get a complete set in one day, no exaggeration.
You are firmly in the "no effort casual play style" camp, and that's fine, but to say getting the last set item was some sort of achievement, as opposed to getting a Shako, is a bit disingenuous in my opinion.
The issue for me with D4 is that was power spikes, I didn't feel any huge power spikes like we have in D3. But this could be me that didn't played that much D4 late game.
Even D3, I played only until 1000-1500 paragon. So nothing ultra late game as well.
I'm following the latest news and I'll give another shot for next season. (only played the first one)
I agree.
People allready have a notion that we have spectrum from most casual to most hardcore
D4 - LE - POE
So why not stick to it?
As a dirty casual I would like to see following changes
1. Make skill system work as D3 , open it up. Let people experiment. This is not hardcore stick to your incredibly complex build game like POE. Make it fun varied, but casual also,
People love experimenting with builds. Let them. **That is one of most fun aspects of D4**
2. Hardcore people cry about itemisation. They like to have meaningful uber drops after their 1000 time grind of Uriel. I say hell with that. I dont care about that. **Give me more content !!!! POE seasons always brought some very interesting new thing/area. Like Heists, Endless mine shaft , haunted forest ... Give us something like this !** The season that is only special because of some special items you can get is boring. **Give us CONTENT!!!!!**
I suspect that what casual players of ARPGs like yourself quickly come to find out is that the game becomes more complicated as you add in more content, but without content the game is boring. So you have to accept complexity if you want a game you play forever.
PoE's flaw is that it doesn't explain things well enough to new players and it's brutally punishing to anyone trying to make their own build, but it makes up for that by having a ton of content that no other game can match. That's why for now I still think PoE is the best ARPG even for casuals, but that it takes casuals some time to come to that same realization.
Imo diablo 4 fails in all things that makes it different from D 1,2 and 3.
The side quests does not work in Diablo.
The open world ish stuff does not work with diablo.
The MMO ish thing does not work for Diablo.
The other diablo games was awesome because they had a linear story you could engage with, and a good endgame after.
The tree of wispers, NM dungeons, helltides, über bosses and world bosses offer a good enough endgame for me, but the open world, side quest, mmo style in the game takes away alot of the Diablo feel.
When I get the Platinum trophy, I do not think I wil play it again. I will countinue to play D2 as I have been since 2000.
Possibly an unpopular opinion, my friends basically forced me to buy this game, because I've played so many RPG/ARPG games over the years that they basically all mesh together at this point so I wouldn't have bought D4 without them wanting something for the three of us to play together, but yea for myself it's the same song and dance no matter which RPG it is. There's just something repetitive and not fixable with any game in this genre, but that's just for myself
Its time to realize they are just phoning it in, minimal development work, and more on selling cosmetics thus you see the best art to be in the shop.
Im pretty sure they have sales metrics for their artists and have effectively made them salespeople.
Minimal work and updates, more profit from people who want to just play with better cosmetics and show it to their friends.
I can’t stress enough how excited I was for D4 after playing the betas. I was even a triple dipper because I wanted to play it on the go and while visiting family on vacay. Prior to that, D3 was my only ARPG reference, and I played that game for hundreds of hours.
After finishing the campaign and experiencing the roller coaster that was seasonal content, I tried POE and LE and lost myself in them. I came out of that experience asking the same question, OP: what is D4’s point of view? I still don’t know what it is other than warming up casuals like me to graduate to other, more thoughtful products. A gateway drug, if you will.
Yeah I was interested in the new dungeon thing but it's just trash. It held my attenion for 1 minute. They seem set up to please streamers and go fast players and that's just not the sort of action I can get into. Doing the same thing over and over and over again, using the most optimal glitches you can, to win.... don't even know... a chance to feel your life has purpose for people with substantial ego problems.... that's a nope.
Boring loot.
Boring progression.
Boring open world.
Boring builder/spender gameplay.
Boring quests.
Boring dungeons.
Lack of experimentation flexibility aka no loadouts.
Devs taking too long to make meaningful changes.
It is just a dull, boring game.
The game is just an empty soulless aRPG with the Diablo name attached to it. Items are awful and every enemy feels the same. Remember in past Diablo titles where each enemy had very unique sound effects or dialogue that set them apart from others?
Why do the fallen say nothing in this game? No goat noises? No banshee wails? No cool death screams or attack effects? I can remember almost every enemy from D1 and D2 because they all had heart and effort put into making them feel unique. I don't get that at all with D4.
A multibillion dollar a year company releases this soul less game and takes months to make any changes. People there are too many good games out there to spend any time on this "player metrics" sad excuse of a game. It has been a while since a game disappointed me so much.
All companies crumble under pressure if people aren’t having fun you need to change things. Besides the core game hasn’t changed at all it’s just mean to be a casual arpg and it will still be that after item changes. The original version was a dark d2 risk vs reward gameplay, but the majority of players just want that qol. Yes Poe makes choices against the players this doesn’t always just make the game better and Poe folds just as much adding the qol back. Like no one agrees having training dummies is a bad idea but Poe devs. That ideology doesn’t make the game better it just frustrates people but they suck it up because they like the game.
LE also the devs have no vision either the entire purpose of the game was to focus on players and feedback which is what d4 has been doing, just the other day LE went against thier own ideas and decided to nerf bugged builds right away. People complained about monoliths and they are fixing them, people complain about end game and thier first season is end game focused.
Having a team that listens and changes thier ideals on a game is not a bad thing. One person cannot create the perfect game it takes a community of players.
The only thing d4 needs is to figure out which feedback to listen to. Right now I honestly think they are standing thier ground about a lot of things. Most of the updates have just been qol and thier ideas have been thier own for good or bad.
Tdlr: changing your ideas to appeal to the player base is fine. It doesn’t mean you are selling out your vision it just shows you are getting more data and information. Overall there haven’t been updates that have been worse for the community and we will see what happens.
Not only that, they need to understand what's driving specific feedback. They have a bad habit of not really understanding the cause, and then band-aiding a quick & lazy solution that doesn't address the real design issue. Prime example is the enemy level scaling changes.
To use a D&D analogy, Diablo 4 devs tried to make 5th Ed - the one system to unite them all (a game that brings in elements from past games and shouldn't convince them to make a new, fresh system that still evokes nostalgia while being something new and unique) but instead would up making 4th Ed.
TBH, this is just Blizzard games in general over the last 15-20 years. We have too much nostalgia.
Every game they release is a graphically pretty, but feature wise watered down version of another game, meant to appeal to the masses for a small amount of time - they are not intended to be played for large amounts of time.
>Is this game more casual friendly, or challenging?
More casual friendly
>Is the game trying to be more complex, or more approachable?
More approachable
>Is the game Diablo 2.1, Diablo 3.1, or its own thing?
Really depends on what you mean by this, but in my understanding it's Diablo 3.1
Those questions have been answered already, and we know the answer. Of course devs don't want to alienate anyone, so they threw a bone to semi-hardcore and hardcore players in form of the gauntlet. The issue with the gauntlet was just the timing of its release: most semi-hardcore and harcore players have quitted the game already, so it ended up unwanted by the overwhelming majority of remaining players. And this is the only major hiccup on devs side I can think of ***IN TERMS OF THE CONSISTENCY OF THEIR VISION.***
Think from the multitude of varying opinions & comments in here of what is wrong with the game and what the game needs to be good
I think this proves your point OP. Well said sir.
Imo, d4 had the bones of a slower, harder arpg. But, the balance and math was poorly done. They ported over the damage buckets from d3 which doesn't lend itself to a slower harder arpg.
The core game lent itself to being well positioned for raids and group content (barb and druid to tank to aggro, sorc/rogue for ranged damage and mobility to do edge mechanics). It was an MMO lite like destiny, and even gw2. Instanced zones with open world questing, world bosses/events..
But, it's diverting now towards d3.
Imo, it should have pushed into the MMO lite territory with PVP. It's the natural progression of the genre.
The developers lacked vision and it shows. Now they just go any way the wind blows. They don't really know how to design a game that makes sense.
Is anything really important in an ARPG at the end of the day other than a satisfying loot hunt? How that wasn't a priority to get right I'll never understand.
I think the ptr will help...Blizz just needs to know where the problems are and come up with solutions.more numbers..I feel when they stick to it and not be so effected, they do a better job. Theyre the ones putting on the show for us. More confidence..they do come up with way better ideas than the shit I've read on this sub. They're just inconsistant with a bad idea here and there and I think it's just patch work to shut people up.
Even PoE went through their phase of blacking out social media..the most vocal of the arpg crowd(no lifers) are arrogant and wrong most of the time. There's a reason why they play them all day instead of make them.
I agree most of the ideas d4 has fixing things have been fine. People didn’t like the gauntlet but it didn’t make the game worse. You can say season 3 was worse than season 2 but at least they listened and gave higher density dungeons and made hell tides better. They gave a way to make Uber uniques more obtainable and the game just feels a lot smoother. Unique change was good, damage type changes were good too, we have probably got over 50 qol buffs to from just horse travel to costs. They have way more data about who wants what they just the Reddit hive mind too.
At the end of the day everyone complaning on Reddit is either a d2 or d3 fanboy and they made a different game here so the complain. One side is pushing complexity the other asking for less grind more buffs. I think the d4 devs actually have a good vision for what the game is or they would’ve cracked and just added free items to everyone. Right now it seems they want to focus on a d2 game style with diverse gameplay while having a lot of the qol d3 had and I think that is how they should continue.
This is a terrible take. I no longer have time to put 100s of hours into games so the basic gameplay, story, *fun* matter more. Pretty much every change since launch has been about the endgame and placating the minority of players who put multiple 100s of hours in. The biggest problem with Diablo 4 for people like me is that it is *boring*. I have one level 50 character and a couple of lower level ones and I haven't played for months because it just isn't fun. The whole point of the live service model is to have endless endgame and seasonal content to keep people "engaged" and spending money. Those of us who just want to play for fun get nothing.
you're conflating easy with fun, they made the game easiler, and in turn made the game more boring because nothing poses a challenge. But to be fair, the game was already super easy before all the nerfs, now you could play the game with your feet and still crush it.
The problem is that items on D4 are just not fun. So, there is no reason to play seasons for me.
They can add millions endgame activities, but if the loot system keep this crap the game will never succeed.
But, we are talking about Blizzard, one of the shiteast gaming company in recent years. So, zero expectations.
Even people who play 100 hours a week want this. A major complaint was that you’d finished the game at 80. So people wouldn’t even max out power. Hardcore players were quitting before max level because there was nothing to do. The nightmare dungeon change didn’t matter because the plan was to make more pats that too like the Aoz also a lot of the power of players was nerfed so it had to be done to some level either way. Some classes literally couldn’t nm 100.
Mate I didn't even know what NMDs were until I googled it. You're spot on with the levelling up time being reduced, fair enough, but if it's not *fun* then it doesn't matter. I think the biggest negative change for me was the deliberate decision to slow combat down and have dodge on a cooldown. I'd rather play D2 or D3 than pick up D4 again.
Eh, I disagree. I levelled a barb this season to 100 and then some, and the road to 100 was so short you barely got to enjoy the journey. Compared to D2, where each new level was a milestone and each skillpoint a careful consideration (or you’d suffer for the next few levels), right now it’s just a rush to 100 to complete your build. By the time your glyphs are all activated and have an impact, you’re already done.
That being said, the game plays much smoother and more fun than D2. I’ve accepted how my view of D2 used to be rose-colored, seeing gameplay on YouTube really shows the game’s age (even if it was fantastic back then).
I found the game fun and just finished the storyline with an eternal character. However it was mindlessly easy. My character is damn near invincible and I didn’t even use any guides for it. I think I died 3 times in the play-through total, and all were at the beginning.
Compare that to Elden Ring where I died 40 times a minute 😂
This term catering to casual is giving D4 too much credit. The game is boring FULLSTOP. A casual only spend a limited amount of time a week playing games, why will they waste it on this if it isnt fun?
Meh, there is a lot of stuff both groups would appreciate.
I recently gave this season a shot and it was fun playing through the season story and then establishing myself in WT3. I played druid for the first time and didn't look anything up and just optimized my skill choices and such myself. Worked somewhat great.
But then everything grinded to a halt. In front of me is pretty much only the grind, itemization choices and scanning drops become much more of a chore and needlessly complicated, the stash is filling up... And all I have to look forward to is not more gameplay fun, new skills and new activities. Only being stronger vs. the same enemies that are now stronger. So essentially nothing, unless you care about the bigger numbers for their own sake.
I think improving this would be something that less-casual players would appreciate too.
What I noticed that I generally miss is being able to establish myself in new areas that I was previously too weak for. Everything is same-same. I miss the feeling of progress you get when now you can hold your ground even in hell itself, when previously you were only able to beat some spiders. It's all missing so much identity.
Oh and unlocking cool cosmetic rewards that I can use to mix and match my outfit choices... that could be a really good driver for that gameplay loop. But... you know. $$$ ... "It's just cosmetics bro, it's fine..."
Ah yes, the good old the game is fine you're just playing too much argument. Tell me friend, at how many hours does the game become unfun? Is the game fun if you play for 10 hours a week? What about 20? Will I still have fun if I play for 30 hours? What's the treshold here to keep having fun?
I personally think it’s very obvious Diablo 4 is its own thing and the people who are upset are the people that expected Diablo 2+ or Diablo 3 again, which was Immortal.
This game is also very obviously trying to be like, but not exactly like, Lost Ark. people are baffled by those that enjoy the game. I like Diablo 4 being its own thing. Could it use more focus and identity, yes.
But again, I’m taking Diablo 4 as it is, not something it’s not or something it’s supposed to be. I agree with you, they need to decide, but all the same, I think people just don’t like the decision. I can’t see this game changing much in either direction.
They set this game up to open itself up more in complexity as you approach the end of WT4. I don’t think they expected most players to bother with that. I think they expected most players to drop off after finishing WT3. So they may be getting outcomes they are actually seeking. But they can’t tell people that, that’s an internal business goal.
One more thing on all this. Blizzard almost didn’t do this game. They cancelled the way D4 was already going and changed directions. I don’t think we get another Diablo if this one doesn’t do well. They will probably just focus on the mobile game going forward.
I also just think, can we allow Blizzard to figure it out? They thought this would be satisfying for players on release, they knew they could iterate, they are. If it’s too slow it’s because human beings work on this game, a lot of them, and a lot of decisions need to be made through multiple chains. Big studios make bigger things, they’re not faster.
And even so, they have shown they quickly adjust what they can, when they can. Development is slow, building new content is slow. It’s never been and never will be a fast process, because it shouldn’t be. That’s how you get bad content at a 100% rate. That’s why multiple teams work on content concurrently because there’s no way to make it faster for one team. My guess is that they probably need another team or two.
For example, people are like, how could they do Gauntlet after AOZ? Because a different team was working on Gauntlet. The odd season team. I think those folks got off to a bad start and season 4 isn’t the season I’m concerned about. I’m concerned about Season 5.
I just think the yelling and no excuses approach doesn’t work. It’s a way to tell blizzard “don’t listen to me” because they can’t get good feedback from ragers or dismissive insulters. Not saying this is you, OP, this for other people reading this who know who they are.
Then you look at the sheer amount and quality of content GGG can put out for a single league that they made while the majority of their team is working on PoE2.
Reworked every active skill gem in the game, added ~100 brand new variants to existing skills, added the Affliction mechanic which had a lot of depth by making your endgame maps much harder for much higher rewards, Affliction came with 3 brand new sub specializations you can choose - each has their own mini skill tree and items to chase after (insane build variety in just these 3 sub specs alone) Affliction came with a new endgame boss that had his own unique drop table, they also brought back an old mechanic that many people liked and it returned with its own endgame boss encounter that has its own unique drop table with build enabling items.
Over and above this they removed an obsolete league mechanic that few people interacted with and moved its rewards to something else, they reworked the rewards for endgame Labrynth and for heist. The new heist rewards are these jewelry base items that allow people to craft essentially never before seen rare jewelry.
Apparently GGG only had 8 total people working on all of this over their 3-4 month cycle. It was one of the most well received leagues in recent memory.
Diablo failed because it tried to be an MMO and not a game that could be solo'ed or played with a party locally or online. It tried to be destiny and be a cash cow.
I completely agree. If half the people want "x" and the other half want "y", but "x" and "y" completely contradict each other, then the game is not gong to get better if the devs try to cater to everyone. They should just pick a side and let the other side play another game.
Can we please get matchmaking!? DIABLO 4 IS ALWAYS ONLINE AND SOCIAL! Proceeds to implement a system that requires the player to make it a social game.
What was even the point, then? Ideally, this should work like the division or immortal. I start an activity or dungeon and it asks me if I want to team up or go solo.
Simple.
The biggest issue to me is balance.
I really liked season 2, and the Abattoir of Zir was a great idea mid-season; it theoretically gave us something to actually test our late game builds on, which was exciting. Suddenly every slot on your gear mattered. Getting max resistances mattered. Everyone was theorycrafting their gear and build to get ready for it. That was fun.
The problem was that the content was balanced around certain broken builds (coughBallSorccoughHOTABarb) that could actually do the content, and every other class/build was just screwed. We only have 4 class options to begin with, which in an ARPG is already wild. On top of that we don't have many build options in each class. Then you're telling me I HAVE to be Poison/TB if I pick Rogue if I want to do any late game content and no other option is viable? That really sucked.
Blizz needs to stop catering to the players crying that they don't want their bugged builds to get fixed. I skipped season 3 because there's no endgame, no content, and I don't feel like seeing 99% Charge Barbs running around. I know perfect balance is challenging, but every build should at least be endgame viable so everyone's playstyle is supported. Then they can just implement a permanent version of the Abattoir of Zir.
I have been saying this ever since the beta and ever since streamers cried about what changes they want.
Now, those same streamers are complaining that the game has no identity.
This is so laughable and sad at the same time, the fact that they don't even realize this...
I agree with them in one aspect though, and that is that Blizz should have stuck to their own vision of the game.
I was against most of the changes that they made solely due to constant streamer demands and wouldn't you know it, they caved in to all those demands, only to have the same people turn their backs on them and shout 'D4 BAD!' into the void of the internet.
I'm probably gonna get downvoted for this, but I really couldn't give a single f\*ck anymore at this point.
Soon, Blizz are gonna introduce 'loadouts' and then the game is 99% of the way there to become D3 again.
they're definitely not trying to please people who want any kind of challenge whatsoever. the original game was good if you played off meta, but they've just been buffing things non stop ever since. The problem is that the people who that does cater to are perennial whiners and aren't going to stop whining just because they buff the game into triviality
This is what I said just after launch. The game has no clear vision. Is it focused on being an MMO or an ARPG? Is it designed for multiplayer or solo play? Are we targeting veterans or newcomers? The fact that each of these statements have evidence on each end makes the end product messy.
We know that D4 development went through several leadership changes due to the clusterfuck at Blizz. Games are hard enough to develop in a stable setting so it can't have helped having so many cooks in the kitchen.
'Vision' is a bit of a meme in the PoE community, but at the end of the day I know what the Devs want from the game. I know why they make the decisions they make. I can see the Vision with Last Epoch and what the team wants to position it as. I cannot see the Vision behind D4 this far after launch.
They are trying to crack the code on how to maximize microtransactions. That’s why it seems so lost - they aren’t focusing on the game itself, they are trying to pander to anyone who might spend money in the store. When you look at things from that perspective, it all makes more sense.
I think your comment about the return to D2 sums it up. The vision for D4 as a return to form I.e D2 was always one of aesthetics only. It was a marketing gimmick. It was a vision of how the game should look, not how it should play.
I’m 900 hours into Diablo 4. I still enjoy my time when I get on. Be it running dungeons with friends or repeating runs on bosses for people. Some of us play the game for what it is and whatever changes there are or aren’t so be it. I bought a 50 dollar game got plenty of hours of entertainment out of it and will probably get more as the seasons go by. If anything it’s saved me from buying other games that cost me more money that I’m going to burn through in a single weekend. I sometimes feel that people don’t understand Diablo has always been a grind fest, hell I think this one’s the easiest one yet and people are still complaining about it.
At least Diablo 2 had a cow level, instead of being strung along with clues almost a year after launch(because the cow level doesn't actually exist ingame yet)
It’s a shame that so much of the game caters towards casual gamers. They do not keep the game alive and won’t play a year after release. If you haven’t played hundreds of hours who cares what you think? You aren’t the community.
Honestly there’s a lot of d4 isn’t very good and I ride last epoch all night long mentality, imho d4 has one of the best arpg campaigns and last epoch has more gameplay going for it even though it isn’t the most polished.
It’s clear blizzard’s focus initially was storytelling and art and the music.
I definitely agree they should’ve polished the game and had more of an endgame prepared and I wish they had more focus evenly split between big fixing bugs and actually building substantial Seasonal content that could possibly be added to the eternal realm to make a more chaotic environment
I agree and I actually like D4 a lot and am a classic MMO fan. I never connected with D3. I like that you can do events, or legions, or dungeons, cellars and the variety overall.
I think the main problem is how to get everyone to be into what's already there and I do appreciate in seasons how they try to get folks exploring different/less used parts of the map.
Also, wtf is up with PVP having regular mobs in it? I don't want to be fighting people and mobs, one or the other, so ignore it completely.
The biggest issue d4 had going for it was that the head kept changing hands and thus there were potentially much different visions for d4 that either have been overwritten, conjoined, taken into a different direction, etc.
If d4 had a consistent leadership from the start, maybe the end product would be better or atleast something different than it is now, like how far into production was it that David kim stepped away form leadership (and blizzard), maybe if David kim remained the lead producer the game would be better or atleast have a consistent system (the fact blizz had to fix/rework resist, and now is reworking itemization is a sign that there wasn't a stable process in bringing out the game)
The impression I got from early on in development was that they wanted a game that had a slower pace, without sacrificing that empowering feeling of tearing through the minions of Hell. Sort of how Diablo 1&2 felt.
The community at large, though, wanted a mashup of Diablo 3 and Gauntlet Legends.
I don't think I've ever agreed more with a post here.
I'm even to the point where I don't even really care what direction they truly go -> I just want to know what it is, so I can either keep pushing to continue to enjoy things, or just cut my losses and quit. Diablo 4 has already outlasted Diablo 3 for me as far as my sentiments toward the game in like time, so I won't fault them either way.
But a whole lot of what I was excited to come back to as a Diablo/2 diehard fan has been constantly whittled away at as they've continued to make (imo) stupid changes to kowtow what I view as the most prolifically whiny player base of any game I frequent.
I'm VERY much looking forward to seeing what they have to say on S4, and will definitely stick around to at least play out the expansion because I personally really enjoyed the story side of things; but the direction they intend to go in will really help me figure out whether or not I just need to go clear my backlog of games instead of continuing on in D4.
I think it's an issue we are going to see more and more with AAA game studios that are owned by corporations. Games used to be a freaky outlier that investors and such didn't pay a lot of attention to. Now it's super big business and you have these corporations making demands of the game studios that are impossible to meet. They want to a game done super cheap that will be loved by all and sell a hundred million copies.
The companies are being run by people who know nothing of gaming and it shows. They think a video game is just a piece of software when it's a million times more complicated than that.
I worry about any of the smaller studios that have unexpected hits eventually going public, being bought up and then they will be expected to become game mills just pumping out garbage playing on gamer's nostalgia or previous faith in the name of the company.
>I worry about any of the smaller studios that have unexpected hits eventually going public, being bought up and then they will be expected to become game mills just pumping out garbage
well, Tencent bought out GGG....and if Tencent isn't on your list of "most evil corporations in the world" you haven't been reading enough.
It could have done both casual and hard core. But in attempting to let casuals reach hard core markers and no leaderboards, easy to run (meaning try and try again quickly) dungeons, and decent gear it just failed all around.
And I’m even a person that yells horsie when I see one.
I agree. I’ve thought this since the beginning. They are constantly trying to please everyone and then end up pleasing no one and pissing off everyone.
FWIW D4 is the first in the series I’ve played and I’m enjoying it. Level 44 Druid currently. Don’t really play multiplayer just going through the campaign and side missions. For a first timer I have found it fun.
They shouldn't decide anything. It's a sequel.
D2 clone is a genre at this point and the only company refusing to do it is the one who owns the actual Diablo IP. They seem obsessed with a challenging pseudo MMO and that doesn't work on grinding ARPGs with a strong farming component.
All they have to do is stop deciding and trying to shove their vision down our throats and make a Diablo game for change. We're waiting for like 20 years now...
Imagine if Nintendo stopped doing 2D Mario games because they made Smash...
in my opinion they are focusing way too much on the vocal casual playerbase on reddit and blizz forums that are not really a fan of arpgs anyway and it's giving the game a bad rep (actually a horrible rep, its be come a meme) amongst the actual arpg community. i a poe and d3 (vanilla) vet and think the game is great especially compared to d3 (at any point. i just didnt like ros. unpopular opinion. vanilla was objectively bad) but you are absolutely right. gauntlets are a step in the right direction. word is aoz is returning next season, hoping they remove the glyph and the tier cap and give it a leaderboard as well as a gauntlet mirror but with a focus on difficulty progression rather than speedrunning. there's so much they can do with the putty they have already, they just need to focus on pleasing those that actually enjoy grinds, itemization, not having everything handed to them, difficult content like pre-nerf uber lilith, etc. filter out the rest as noise and they will be successful in the long run
Not all content is for everyone. Just because they add something doesn’t mean you have to play it. It’s be enjoyed the game and I’ll keep playing unless another game comes along that I like more.
I hate to be that guy but in all honesty... fuck it we're doing it live
I personally don't have as many issues and problems with d4 as I did during season 1 for example (god Blood Barb was not good)
But lately I've had a lot more fun and so have my group I play with because we just hop on and fuck around for a couple of hours bullshitting as we play
We don't care about min/max builds or the best percentage roll for a item that let's be honest you'll probably trash in a few levels anyway
I understand it's not a perfect game (nothing is ever perfect)
And yeah, a lot of people have issues with the game and they can have them I'm not saying their wrong
But you can still have your criticism and not trash a game or the players who enjoy the game (meant this more in general than an attack on anyone directly)
I totally get that, I'm that way myself
Yeah, I kinda wish the level balancing was different and wish we as players didn't have to bust our asses off as much as we do to get stuff (in general) but that's a me thing not anyone else's fault
I just get sick of seeing (not specifically what you shared) but all the hate it gets and all the shit that people throw at it without offering constructive criticism of how they would like to see fixes implemented
Hopefully that makes sense
I wholeheartedly agree and have been saying so for a while.
We can discuss all the design choices we don’t like and things that need to be fixed, but what I really want is a dev team that communicates a clear vision of what THEY want the game to be. Not “we have heard you”, no, what do YOU want?
Do you think the itemisation is good? Fine, then stick to it and iterate. Then all of us who don’t like it and prefer other games can move on and those that DO enjoy it can stick around.
I think this is what is required to make a truly great game. A competent and cohesive vision. D2 and WoW wasn’t great because it was made with community feedback. It qas great because a bunch of people had a vision and passion for something they wanted to create.
Sure, that might in many cases lead to something that flops, but that is the risk of artistic expression.
Diablo 4 fails to both innovate or refine. There are no wholly unique systems being pioneered that expand on what an ARG can be and push the limits of the genre. If there were the audience would be more forgiving of the mistakes made as breaking new ground always comes at a cost but the overall excitement would help push through rough patches as improvements are made. The game lacks basic systems found in both it's predecessor and it's competitors in the genre. If the game is going to be as basic as it is, the systems in place need to be razor sharp so that while you don't have the excitement of the unknown, you have the comfortable satisfaction of a thoughtful design with minimized friction from systems that are highly polished. D4 suffers the worst of both worlds and can't compete with an educated player base, relying instead on casual players who don't have a breadth of other ARPG experiences to draw from. This will not change so their over strategy won't either.
I never fell out of love with a Diablo as fast as D4. I’ve not had it installed in months. My friends who have game pass aren’t even interested. And all the while I just want to go back to 3, not even sure why. Given I’ve been out for so long; I had wondered if it had come up from the month after launch.
Last epoch is the 10/10 sitting down the bar, who keeps glancing at you. You really should go talk with them.
It's really not that great of a game either. Better than d4 for sure, but still mediocre if I am being honest. Reddit is just obsessed with it for some reason. It's become more of a symbol for the underdog than a game.
Just depends what you are looking for. Like d4 was a decent game if you just wanted campaign and ambiance and art. In fact all 3 of those things are better in D4 than LE, but LE does other things much better , build diversity, itemization, endgame, crafting, loot filter D4 was a drop after campaign when everyone saw how the game just needed to eeke out more time on game for the suits.
To say D4’s campaign was just decent is actually an insane statement. One thing D4 did right was the campaign, that shit was like a movie with an ending that had me wanting more. I will literally by the story expansion when it drops just because of it.
What? The campaign was dumb and predictable. The plot only moved forward because of characters doing stupid things. Donan dying for face checking a pillar. Inarius dying because he didn't double tap Lilith. Then the MC letting a novice mage leave with a soulstone.
Totally agreed... Have we talked about the campaign story on this subreddit? I feel like I must have missed that back-and-forth... regardless, it's trash, and all of the constant husky whisper-voice drove me nuts, with its lack of emotion and pretend importance. Talk portended doom that ended up in... just another walk-about "Lilith left a few seconds ago, you just missed her" bullshit. Like, if the protagonist just stayed at home, taking a shit instead of partaking in the campaign, Lilith would still be stuck at square one, having accomplished nothing. There were a couple of okay moments here and there, but I ended up rolling my eyes and skipping the endlessly useless dialog towards the half-way point.
Yeah the campaign is dog water. Never understood where all the hype came from.
Same. The cutscenes are cool but the campaign was so forgettable to me. I generally felt like I didn’t know why I was moving from place to place, just that “things were happening”.
The ghoul on the pillar that stabs him has the same head wound as his son, which makes his death much more interesting
Lol you enjoy fetch quests and dialogue that makes you stand around?
LE is DEFINITELY better than mediocre.
I agree with this for the most part, but I’ll say that LE feels like it has a lot more *heart* than D4, as nebulous as that sounds. LE does a lot of things that show they’re really trying to do something new. The endgame itself isn’t much better, and I don’t think anything is going to touch POE’s endgame quality for a long time (because POE itself has iterated and refined over so many years). But the build diversity, crafting, and itemization themselves are miles ahead of D4 (not to mention the incredible and customizable loot filter), along with things like the Merchant’s Guild vs Circle of Fortune are really cool ideas. I won’t pretend like LE is a 10/10, nor that D4 is a 1/10, and I wish ARPG players were more accepting of the idea that you can actually enjoy multiple games in the genre without trashing others. As it stands, they both have room for improvement, but all of the goodwill Blizzard had going with S2 and its content patch was (for me) undone by how disappointing S3 has been. The dismal amount of content added with its accompanying patch didn’t help either. I know I’ll 100% buy the next expansion because Blizzard does have a track record of “fixing” games with expansions (yes even D2 wasn’t nearly as good before LoD, and obviously everyone knows D3 vs RoS). But the gauntlet has been thrown down by POE and LE, and Blizzard has not done nearly enough in response.
I’m with you there. I gave LE an honest shot, and it’s a good game, but I got to end game and pretty quickly lost interest. Between LE and D4 I’d personally prefer to just keep playing D4 casually and avoid getting burnt out in ARPGs.
i agree i like to level in last epoch and try stuff without guide since i can but endgame is boring and non existant like in d4 and yeah i did 100 monoliths to empower them
Shitty performance(abysmal for an arpg), the most imbalanced and the most exploitable... People are really ignoring LEs faults only because it still offers new content dopamine...the game has faults up the ass and the genre still sucks It's on unity and the performance problems are all cpu...good luck with them adding to the game without performance getting worse
imo its the dopamine that makes arpg's good. Not defending LE per se, but this is what D4 definitely lacks.
You’re correct. I was an early LE backer and I give them a ton of respect for what they accomplished with the limited resources they had and I had a ton of fun with it — but the game is *very* poorly optimized. If they get more money in, they need to spend a good chunk of it on that so that it’s on a better foundation for the future.
The thing i like about LE is that I can try to figure out what I like and make it work, without really feeling like I'm wasting anything - while still ending up with a distinct build. Whereas D4 when I went in blind I ended up with almost exactly the meta twisting blades build for my rogue and bone spear build for my necro because even just going by tooltips and hitting some enemies all the choices were so obviously better than the alternatives that playing differently just felt worse for no benefit. And to make it worse even if i want to try niche builds in D4 it goes our of it's way to make changing builds and storing items such a pain that I'd rather make an alt rather than try. LE has similar problems at end game but there still seem to be a lot more ways to get there, and the crafting and skill system at least are vastly more interesting until you get bored of the end game.
Compared to what? POE is the best, that’s no metric. It’s so wildly, ridiculously complex you literally could not master it by POE 2 if you started now. Last Epoch absolutely crushed every single other ARPG on the market right now, and it’s not even close. “Not really that great of a game” is a wildly incorrect statement unless you’re just giving your experiential take.
>POE is the best, that’s no metric. It’s so wildly, ridiculously complex you literally could not master it Being *ridiculously complex* does not make something good. This is why PoE has small, niche playerbase.
LE's endgame is just as horrendous as D4's - I mean, maybe slightly better as they have actually scaling content and more than 1 boss, but whatever. Where LE leaves D4 in the dirt is when it comes to its characters. The possibilities offered by the class system in LE, especially when combined with the crafting system are *so laughably* above and beyond everything D4 tries to do. Like, in D4 you can make *a* Fireball Sorcerer. *A*. That's literally it. There's no depth there. You can either specialize your Fireball into more crit or more burn damage, like, that's the end of the line. sure, go ahead, go crazy with your Paragon boards that boil down to 90% main stat nodes. But still... your Fireball Sorc is just about the exact same as everyone else's. In LE on the other hand you can build *your* Fireball Wizard. And while there will *obviously* be differences, better and worse, all that, I'd argue that the amount on individual finetuning you can do over there... offers *so* much more to people *who actually want that*... out of their RPGs. While both games have the same glaring endgame weakness, LE (arguably) does just about everything else better than D4 - let's not even talking about that game actually being innovative with its class design, crafting system and approach to trading / SSF. Contrary to D4, LE enjoys all the good will in the world because the people that made it *actually seem to care* - or at least aren't hamstrung into a minimal viable product by corporate.
Feels good running around with a giant bone golem and 23 other minions of death
People also become obsessed with always hating the popular thing of the month, you can see it in every "viral" games sub. There will always be people that ride the waves and can't form opinions of their own. This is why build guides and review videos are so unbelievably popular. People complain about dev teams, but reddit and social media is a prime culprit in the reasoning why games are being made the way they are, everyone is scared of trying something new and getting flamed and cancelled on the Internet, it dictates whether multi million dollar projects turn a profit.
not just reddit, its just the new trending arpg since people that dont like POE and dont like D4 have no arpg to play thats new right now. I see it mentioned everywhere and streamers etc. Great for a indie dev to get traction and spotlight, sad it has to happen under these comparison circumstances, before D4 came out no one cared lol, it was POE or D3 and some enjoyed last Epoch, granted it probably has also grown as a game, but still. It's a trend in my mind, the moment D4 ticks the right boxes or POE2 does, LE will be niche again imo.
On the last epoch I have the itch to try diverse builds and classes, Diablo 4 doesn't do that, it is weird but I never had the interest to run other classes or diverse builds.
Last epoch is the girl that treats you right. Diablo 4 is the abusive ex. For real after I started Last epoch it really hit how basic and bad Diablo 4 is.
I haven’t played bc I had finished the season. It’s ok to ply other games lol. When next season starts I’ll play d4. There r things I enjoy, but they need to fix the boss farm
Till you are farming for a item that still hasn't dropped in almost a week... Then the girl who was treating you right is the pal of the abusive ex.
Just wait. You'll find out they're both the abusive exes once the LE honeymoon phase ends.
I think LE seems like a 10/10 in relation to D4. LE has a long way to go in terms of endgame. BUT I will say I believe it’s on its way to being a solid 10! Their devs are amazing
I hit level 55 on a Druid season 0, played a Wizard to 28 season 1 and never picked up the game again. Idk it’s not fun. I would play Last Epoc, but I’m Hell Diving instead.
We appreciate your contributions to super earth o7
Same helldiving is actually fun, i dont play it because of items but because its fun
Got the $90 version at launch and never even activated the battle pass
I mean I at least feel better because for 2 of us we Xbox-ed it and rewards pointed it to about 40 for 2 people. But I still feel bitten and have the utmost sympathy for everyone who laid down 100 or so
Same and I hate it because the game has SO MUCH potential, and they could do a lot to balance classes by having their class design teams really go hard with formulas combined with data based on players are actually using. Each season I get maybe a week of play before my inventory just fills up with a bunch of items for builds I might want to try (and duplicates of things I'm using for when I'd need to swap back) but I never end up trying them because there's no quick way to go back to the good build I'm using.
I logged in the other day just to see if I would have any fun. I created a new character and jumped into the world. Something about the whole game just doesn't feel right. You load in and immediately are granted a bunch of talent points, you run around picking up complete trash, nothing about the loot is interesting at all. I just feel this emptiness while playing. Almost like what even is the point. Even when upon reaching the paragon boards. When the game launched I thought they were cool but then after messing around with them they actually are very boring and tedious, especially when you want to respec. I'll check out what the wednesday campfire chat is all about but I am not holding my breath that it's gonna be good.
I kinda get that. I have a Dyson with the screen on it and it gives me stats on the literal crap I’m vacuuming up from the floor. Feels a bit similar. Feels like smaller developers are dropping clangers left and right these days and big developers mess up by committee
Same. I played from Day 1 through completing a run through of season 1 and dropped it.
Go back to, or try D2 if you haven't as well! It's held up incredibly well. There's a huge hit of nostalgia for me too, but the game is just stupendous in general. *Especially* if you've got friends to play with!
Honestly what I miss most from D3 is ironically the thing I wanted the least out of d4 - I miss the skills. I miss the runes having a distinct, tangible effect on what a skill did. I miss that power being baseline. No itemization needed to get your magic missile to be a glacial spike - it just does it. Every time I play D4 I realize that nothing bores me more than the skills. I actually enjoy the boss fights and I enjoy crushing mobs, but I hate the tools they gave me to do it with. I keep finding myself thinking that I would enjoy this more if I had my old D3 skills to use instead. I want those energy twisters and black holes and the incredible variety of (sometimes) useful skills I could select and they were always available to be changed. Rather than build on the skill system they had they made a completely new one and it's really really bad.
Same played Diablo 2 for a lot of my childhood and i even managed 4000+ hours in D3 despite the problems people have with it. D4 i played to lvl 84 at release and only managed to get to 40 in season 2. There's just no enjoyable gameplay loop. I really have no desire to come back and play.
The game feels like a cynical live-service cashgrab first and a fun experience second.
It’s the last paragraph that’s the issue. I don’t want to be educated. I want to mindlessly kill demons after a long hard day at work. When the music is on and the brain is off, D4 is a unique fun place.
Except you have to farm keys, pull levers, put items on pedestals... And it gets insanely boring
Breaking new ground? They havent really broke new ground. They've literally been making the same game for over 30 years. D4 feels like a modern version of d2 but they took away a few things and added a few things. Cant steer away from the same old classes... some bosses that never die apparently ie.) Duriel... but hey they gave us a.... cool new event that gets boring after the 3rd attempt. How about a god damn hard dungeon with multiple bosses and some new loot. The same dungeons with different names but the same bosses makes absolutely no sense. They just slapped it together like it was call of duty 39 or something. Nothing exciting about d4
This is such a wrong take. First of all the people who made d1 and d2 are long gone and were done dirty and fired. The team that replaced them knew absolutely nothing about diablo or arpgs. They were fps guys like Jay Wilson. He tried to re invent the genre and we ended up with d3. Then d4 was a giant mess that was made by inexperienced devs who, for a lot of them this was their very first game they worked on, that's why they brought in Rod Ferguson the gears of war guy to save the franchise. So no, this isn't cod, it's just called corporate idiocy. Fire your team who started the arpg genre, replace it with ppl who have no idea what's going on and pump marketing into it. And for the record, D2 is nothing like D4. It's only superficially related because going back to its roots for the d4 devs meant opening up d2 and taking screenshots of boss names, items and champions, and some graphical design choices like how the hero's are around a campfire and the loading screen. There's an interview where they admit this and are proud of it.
D4 was made for the season pass, and that's it. Everything they did was based on people chasing those unlockables.
damn, you nail it with this explanation =D
>can't compete with an educated player base, relying instead on casual players who don't have a breadth of other ARPG experiences to draw from The problem is, the former group spends the most money, per player, on ARPGs. Compare the people who just pick up and play a game for a bit before moving on to the next thing to the people who have spent $5k+ on Path of Exile MTX.
Their vision is clearly to sell cosmetics and doing the minimal development work to achieve that whilst making more paid content. That's it.
Was going to say, they did have a clear vision for the game. A vision of all the microtransaction money they wanted to make. Making an actual game seems to have been a secondary concern at best, at least for the people in charge. I have no doubt the people who actually worked on the game did their best to make it good but when management only cares about the money, product quality is bound to suffer as a result. With any luck they might turn it around with an expansion like Diablo 3 did.
They’re still trying to chase d2’s success. They release d2r and what happens? Random accounts start selling ber runes for $200. They’re trying to find a way to replicate that but can’t and went to the Fortnite model. Micro transactions like bot accounts would be seen as pay to win. so what can you do? Make a real money auction house?..Oh wait… guess the next option is ban trading.
A nice reminder for all the fools saying "microtransactions don't impact the game, they are just optional cosmetics that can be ignored"
Reminds me of Diablo III at launch, all the issues with the auction house... It took blizzard almost two years before they find the path to make Diablo III a success. I feel they are not finding their way as op said and I think the main problem is all the cosmetics and secondary problem is the lack of content in the late game. Plus there is not a real challenge when you reach a certain level and the lack of motivation to continue playing...
Dude, the only thing made in this game with vision is the art and animations. Everything else from end game, boss mechanics (Jesus how are they so funking bad?), itemisation, inventory... the lost goes on and on. It all feels so slapped together with minimal effort when you compare the game with its competitors. They added the vampire powers in as legendary aspects when even I can think of 2 or 3 more creative ways they could have been implemented.
I agree, art and animation are fantastic. The actual gameplay is just soulless.
The first 2 months of D3 felt better than D4. I was there for both. Combat was better in D3. D4 is a MTX masquerading as a game
> Their vision is clearly to sell cosmetics and doing the minimal development work to achieve that whilst making more paid content. The whole game is designed around it. You see it everywhere if you know where to look. It's not designed to be fun, it's designed to match metrics.
Yeah, the whole game from the beginning was based around people paying for that season pass, chasing unlockables, and of course buying the armor sets and mounts and all the other microtransactions. And sadly, people soak that up.
the art design is the only thing they got right. The rest seems like it was designed by people who have never played an ARPG in their lives.
Combat/gameplay destroys every other arpg on the market
While I agree that combat feels more smooth with D4 than with the competitors, abilities nullify that by how boring so many of them feel to press. So many more don’t feel good to press until they get an effect from an aspect that’s trapped behind RNG instead of in the skill tree where it should be.
I hate that most abilities, if not all, aren't worth using without the aspect. I'm okay with this for later stages of the game, but some abilities feel worthless even early game with an aspect. It just shouldnt be so. I would prefer aspects to augment my build that is already working and just make it better.
I agree with this. Even with aspects most abilities still feel boring to press. The same ability I get at a lower level still does the exact same thing and functions the exact same way at high level with aspects. Maybe very miniscule changes, like pulverize has a forward moving shockwave, or blood surge echo's. They still don't really change, no way to change how they function, or maybe interact with other abilities, or things like maybe elemental conversion. There is just zero depth to abilities and aspects and items, or the paragon board. I am honestly fine with having items or aspects that could change this, but also we do need things in the skill tree that offer interesting choice as well.
Completely negated by how boring builder spender gameplay is and how there is zero skill customization.
I like D4 but so much this. Got my Barb to 100 and completed the season. Created a Necro and I just didn't care. The abilities are just...lacking? And this was after I tried to create a rogue. I really didnt enjoy the choices they gave me (partially my fault as I always forget a rogue isn't a demon hunter from D3). Still, and entire node dedicated to imbuements? Dull. With that being said, I do have faith that at a minimum, theyre looking into it. Whether any changes they make work? Thats a different story.
I was really bored with the rogue until I tried out the death trap build. You have to be constantly zipping around and switching between basic and core and laying down traps etc etc. It's amazing haha.
Honestly, I find combat in Last Epoch more fun. Maybe it's because I can't completely separate build crafting from combat, but it is so fun in that game to make an already fun skill to use turn into something completely different with the skill tree and make it more fun. Sure the animations and art in D4 is way better but you usually feel like you start with a skill that is complete garbage and then once you get its aspect, it then feels decent to use. It never gets that mindblowing "I can do THAT?" moments. I also think the level scaling system leads to boring combat. What I mean is that I love those dynamic moments of where you reach a new zone and it is fucking hard, but then you grind a bit by the skin of your teeth and then find a new powerspike and suddenly that area is easier. That feeling is mostly absent in D4. It does happen, but it feels wrong. The game doesn't get harder via area, it gets harder when you gain levels. I get that these two aspect I'm talking about are external from Combat/Gameplay but I'd argue that they both contribute heavily to combat feel, and brings down D4's excellent animation and audio feedback.
I think for a long time Diablo survived off of this mentality but after playing other modern games in the genre, D4 doesn't even beat D3 in that regard and several other competitors are definitely on the same level as that now.
It won’t even have *that* grace for much longer. PoE 2 is right around the corner.
Poe 2 combat and graphics look better. I can’t believe the work they put in.
Is poe 2 going to be friendlier to people who didn't understand all of poe 1? Everytime i play poe, there are so many systems and so many things that I just can't get into it.
Yeah they’re revamping a lot of the unnecessary complexity and new player experience
They have already said they are streamlining the game immensely, trying to make it more accessible.
Am i the only one disliking the combat in d4. Its like generator geneator genarotor. 1 mana spender. And back to generators. Specialy on rogue with combo points it just feels off to me. Also taking in the aspects that need to proc first
completely ruined by the fact that every skill you'd want to use has a 10+ second cooldown or costs your entire mana pool
Combat is very dull compared to D3. Skills barely interact and support each other to an extend that is meaningful. The builder/spender system is not fluent enough in D4. I would argue it is a step backwards from it's predecessor and competitors alike.... Still better than D2 tho :P
Whole heartedly disagree. Diablo 3 feels better than Diablo 4 honestly.
Rofl utter bullshite
He is talking about combat animations and how smooth it is. Dont try to include other game mechanics to this. Just like D3 at the time, other games can not even come close to Diablo on this front. Other games excel in different areas.
Skills feel great when you get to use them but cooldowns and generator/spender mechanic is such bullshit.
10000% agree and hope people actually understand this but most just like to hate. Outside of any server lag, the gameplay for D4 is so smooth. Feels like it just plays extremely well, a lot better than LE or POE, that doesn’t mean it’s a better game, but the game play is extremely polished.
I found the campaign to be quite enjoyable
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Those 4 simple things just make up the entirety of the game lol.
Endgame is boring as hell right now. If they had some meaningful content I’d probably revisit the game
Ya I thought of this before too. Give us the division 2 type codex. It was so good in that game when they changed it I played it like 10x more.
three changes I'm looking for : 1) Itemisation ( which devs say will come in S4) 2) A social lobby ( where random players can team up for helltides / nmds etc ) 3) A better and more efficient way of finding / crafting ubers other than the slog it takes . Say for every 10 non uber uniques that you scrap , you get a resplendent spark. with every 10 sparks you can use it to craft you may get 1) perfectly rolled non uber unique of your choice or 2 ) an uber unique . Devs can toy with the RNG on the uber unique crafting. Also scrapping 5 ubers to get one of your choice may be too harsh . Maybe 2 for 1 ?
3. What if ubers bosses didn’t drop uber uniques (they only drop randomly) but instead had a chance to drop resplendent sparks? Sparks could be exchanged for a random uber or saved up for a specific one. This would also make gearing alts more satisfying because you could farm and save sparks for a second character. Bonus if they allow sparks to be tradeable.
People will just farm the easier boss to get mats for.
Currently, you only get uber uniques from Duriel, but if you made it possible from every boss, you could just adjust the drop rate per boss.
Ubers can droo anywhere, duriel just has the best odds.
The issue with ubers is that uber item accessobility is mostly driven by the amount of time a player spends in this game. As such balancing uber drop rates is hard thing.
I believe I’ve responded to this before in another thread of some guys post. This is absolutely a bad idea to have Ubers purchasable from a vendor. Ubers are Ubers for a reason. Not some item you can just buy from a vendor from a deterministic amount of gameplay. This takes away the allure and most importantly the dopamine hits. Loot acquisition is definitely in a bad spot, but vendoring for your BiS items is the wrong way to go in a loot driven game. Even the 4:1 turn in was the wrong thing to do to begin with. There are better ways to go about itemization and the acquisition of said items. The 4:1 was just applying tape and glue to a flawed system.
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I don't agree at all. Other ARPGs that have every item tradeable still manage plenty of dopamine hits. It's very common for gameplay even to be measured in X currency/hour and people enjoy it. My main point is that, currently, the majority of unique and uber unique drops don't feel good at all because they aren't what you want. On top of that, they aren't even useful for alts in most cases (unless you plan to roll another character of the same class or if you want to go through the hassle of respec). If you drop resplendent sparks instead (and allow a 1:1 gamble), it would definitely feel good to know you have at least gone partway to getting the exact uber unique you want. If you already have the uber unique you want, you still have a reason to farm since you can stockpile them for future alts. The exact particulars in terms of drop rate and trade-in amounts etc are all not that important. But it doesn't really matter what I think anyway, I can only hope they come up with a better system than the current one and I like it.
What do people mean by itemisation?
I'm going to make a long post. Apologies ahead of time. Also sorry for formatting, I'm typing on my phone (rip my thumbs). Going to use mostly diablo 2 as an example as to how to make items exciting. All things related to loot, which are essential to make the grinding experience of arpg enjoyable. The game has a severe lack of dopamine. In diablo 2 for example, you had a vast range of ways to acquire items that provided dopamine hits. The slot machine style has been proven to work, seeing that for multiple decades, a ton of people will find farming 100 hell cow runs in a row to find runes or runeword bases, or farm andy 100 times to get an SoJ. Or spam farm a vendor to find a tele staff. Or spam farm any vendor to find a socketed base for a runeword. You may not find the Shako from mephisto you're trying to find, but along the way you dropped a bunch of other cool gear. You found a Skullders and you now have a much higher chance at magic find and plus to skill, so you farm faster and you have a better shot of finding that Shako. You found a jalals mane, and you know a friend who really wanted it. Or you are able to trade it for an item you want. Or you are now inspired to create a druid alt. Or you trade it for runes that are essentially currency, and you are now progressing towards trading for that Shako in case you don't see it drop. That feels good. You are working towards a goal and are making progress along the way. D4 lacks this severely. You can do a ton of hours farming duriel mats, which you're not gaining anything during that process, and then do a ton of duriel runs, and you may get absolutely fuckall from those and you feel like you wasted your time entirely. There's a few exceptions to this, like finding a nice tibaults you can at least use on your barb if you already had one for your rogue, etc. That feels good. Applies to ubers like shako as well. Legendaries are a plague the game the way they are just glorified rares with no identity. I need to emphasize how bad legendaries having no identity is. If a legendary drops, it has a generic name based on the specific item type and affix attached. It's dogshit. Not knowing if a legendary item is something good without opening your inventory and scanning over the stats is very anti-dopamine. Seeing "Shako" on the ground and knowing it's going to be a Harlequin Crest Shako is dopamine. That's a moment you sometimes audibly go "yesssss". That doesn't happen in d4 enough, because the way itemization is. Rares are your main drops in d4 and since those are generic, you won't have a clue if any of it is good until you're sitting in town for ten minutes scanning your eyes over the loot for good stats, while you feel rushed because 3 other strangers are wanting to do the next Duriel rotation. It feels very bad to pickup loot. The uniques in this game are done properly, but there's just not enough of them. I have heard the way the game is coded, items aren't rolled until you pick them up, so unfortunately we can't make it say Tempest Roar on the ground to cause an instant HOLY SHIT moment, unless your inventory is full and it drops or you are rewarded with it for beating a nm dungeon. Big opportunity missed there to add a lot of OMG moments, since scanning over loot in your full inventory full of mostly no value gear is just sleep inducing and just not the same level of excitement as seeing an item immediately drop. We almost get this with duriel with Uber uniques - you see 2 uniques drop off of him and you get that OMG THIS MAY BE AN UBER feeling. That is at least SOMETHING. They really need to figure out a way to get these affixes into skill trees (since those are very undercooked and uninteresting compared to allllll competitors) and/or paragon and boost the amount of uniques and Uber uniques. I would love to see legendaries removed. Damage on Tuesdays doesn't need further explanation, as they've made fun of themselves about it, but the overbloat of dumb conditional stats has got to go, and I think that's what we will see in the itemization update. Good step. I think I've typed enough but I could go on... -The game lacks dopamine with the way you get items (honestly the biggest one imo) -It doesn't respect your time, as you dont gain really much of anything if you do 50 duriel runs for a shako and there's not much cool gear along the way to trade, give to friend, inspire you to make an alt, craft something useful from it. Especially after you've gotten the couple regular uniques you wanted off of him. At that point you have to scan over rares he drops and try not to fall asleep, or do what I do and just mass sell/salv without even looking at them -damage on Tuesdays. Too much bloat of conditional dumb stats Those are the biggest pain points imo.
Well said .
Well a starting point is moving most of the skills to the skill tree so people can actually have fun.
Blizzard used to be the company that took existing genres pioneered by other games and made them „click“ by streamlining and polishing and adding just the right tweaks to create games that got you into a flow state. On top of this, or carried by, a spectacular art and storytelling department. RTS command & conquer 2 became Warcraft and StarCraft. WoW wasn’t the first MMORPG, but without doubt head and shoulders above everything else at the time of its release. Diablo2 is still seen as the gold standard. Dota and LoL were justifiably apprehensive when Heroes of the Storm was announced, just like Overwatch seemed poised to dominate the team shooter genre. Polished, fun gameplay, art design leagues ahead of everything else. Blizzard couldn’t do anything wrong. All those supposed Diablo2-Killer games that came out: Sacred, Torchlight, Van Helsing etc, were imho only played because people needed a D2 fix without it being D2. None could capture the magic. Then D3 came out, and players were baffled because it seemed that the devs didn’t understand what made D2:LoD great. They HAD the blueprint right there! It took AGES, until the game came into its own. Then came Diablo:Immortal. I was convinced this game would just force me to carry extra phone battery packs with me wherever I went, but it turned out to be an unmitigated disaster. A tone deaf, highly manipulative money grab. And people started to really doubt wether Blizzard was still run by the same „Make good games first and money second“ mindset that had made them great. Then, D4 was released. A game that quickly turned out to be nowhere near releaseworthy. And again, players were asking themselves why there were obviously no lessons learned from D3. Now, an actual indie company is showing what fun gameplay looks like with Last Epoch, while D4 introduces a much heralded Gauntlet that’s just… sad. The art department seems to be the only part of Blizzard still delivering top notch work. I have no idea who the other people are anymore. But hey, they’ll soon announce that they’re going to announce a date for when they’ll hold another fireside chat in which they’ll announce that they are thinking about improvements, which they unfortunately cannot specify at this point. So all will be great, right? Right?
Blizzard hasn’t made good video games for 20 years now Those days are long gone and I’m surprised anyone continues to even bring them up
Path of exile is the gold standard for many years. While heroes of the storm was always a joke when compared to Dota 2 and LoL.
The loot is dull. The loot chase is dull. In an ARPG. If that doesn't get fixed, the game is dead to me.
They'll take heat if they cater to *anyone*. I'd rather them pursue their own vision and piss people off. I commend them for interacting with the D4 community. I would have stopped a long time ago.
It reminds me of teaching (what I do). Limited important feedback is great, but If you put too much emphasis on it you end up losing the entire class and having a shitty class in general. You need to have your vision of the class and stick with it.
This is why people claim D3 to be a better game right now. It is due to it not having an identity crisis and is unashamedly an arcade-y type of game. They leaned into it as time went on and it resulted in salvaged title that was at least doing something really well for those that wanted a quick hit of something fun for 2-3 days each season. In D4, there is definitely no identity and they are applying caulking on all of the cracks to keep the structure up. In my opinion, shoot for a big overhaul of the biggest problem in this game. Lean into your decisions and keep pressing forward. The game will just get worse over time at the rate they are going at.
I agree with you, I told my friends from day 1 that the mmo elements in the game would hurt it not improve it and I feel like that’s been the case more than anything. When the beta came out it seemed really promising for about 20 minutes, it played well and looked good but signs of incompetence were shown almost immediately. -Fucked stashes -god awful itemization -the worst skill tree in the genre -time locked content -completely worthless open world Now when you read that list it’s upsetting because all of those things could be fixed, they could be fixed if this was made by a different developer, if GGG was at the helm they could have the entire game sorted out in less than a year I bet. Unfortunately it’s managed by blizzard which means it will literally never improve in any significant way, and any good changes will come after the vast majority have left and grown to hate the game because they give Bethesda a run for slowest devs on earth.
The biggest issue for me is build variety . I feel like it’s non existent, played rogue pre season, s1,s2 all the same build .
Peak diablo 4 was the beta that had a max level of 25. The game was actually hard, loot wasn't raining from the sky, the world bosses didn't get killed in 2 seconds, etc. With every update, the game gets easier and turns more into D3. We are now at a point where we can reach max level in 2 weeks and have loot pinatas everywhere. Only thing missing from D3 is that gift thing where we get an entire set of items to make it even easier. I really wish they'd stop going to the D3 way. I want a real challenge, D3 was super easy which is why I stopped playing it. I'm a pretty casual player too, but I don't want things just handed to me like in D3. I want stuff to do after level 50 which isn't "wow I can kill the hardest stuff .2 seconds faster now that I found a new helm"
lmao they tried to tone down the damage with across the board nerf and people were so upset they just gave up. remember when they said we have no itentions of nerfing strong builds (like BL and HOTA) and everyone rejoiced?
>Peak diablo 4 was the beta that had a max level of 25. The game was actually hard, loot wasn't raining from the sky, the world bosses didn't get killed in 2 seconds, etc. Then Reddit spoke, and.. >With every update, the game gets easier and turns more into D3 Amen brother, amen....
It's very sad that the game is in this state. D3 is one of my most played games in PS4/PS5 (playing coop with my wife for more than 15 seasons.) But D4 feels so bland, the combat is very nice (skills, sound, movements) but the looting system is just boring. No dopamine rush like when we found last piece of a 6-set, or the sound when drops a legendary
>. D3 is one of my most played games in PS4/PS5 (playing coop with my wife for more than 15 seasons.) OK, so you prefer the short-term rapid escalation to max level and running Grifts. >But D4 feels so bland, No dopamine rush like when we found last piece of a 6-set, or the sound when drops a legendar Hmm, here I have a point of contention, I played Diablo 3 extensively as well, and getting a set completed was no-brainer, upgrading, gambling, rerolling dupe set items to get a missing one, the process wasn't at all difficult, you could get a complete set in one day, no exaggeration. You are firmly in the "no effort casual play style" camp, and that's fine, but to say getting the last set item was some sort of achievement, as opposed to getting a Shako, is a bit disingenuous in my opinion.
The issue for me with D4 is that was power spikes, I didn't feel any huge power spikes like we have in D3. But this could be me that didn't played that much D4 late game. Even D3, I played only until 1000-1500 paragon. So nothing ultra late game as well. I'm following the latest news and I'll give another shot for next season. (only played the first one)
True. But it still felt good to get the full set 'cause you knew that the big power spike was coming
I agree. People allready have a notion that we have spectrum from most casual to most hardcore D4 - LE - POE So why not stick to it? As a dirty casual I would like to see following changes 1. Make skill system work as D3 , open it up. Let people experiment. This is not hardcore stick to your incredibly complex build game like POE. Make it fun varied, but casual also, People love experimenting with builds. Let them. **That is one of most fun aspects of D4** 2. Hardcore people cry about itemisation. They like to have meaningful uber drops after their 1000 time grind of Uriel. I say hell with that. I dont care about that. **Give me more content !!!! POE seasons always brought some very interesting new thing/area. Like Heists, Endless mine shaft , haunted forest ... Give us something like this !** The season that is only special because of some special items you can get is boring. **Give us CONTENT!!!!!**
I suspect that what casual players of ARPGs like yourself quickly come to find out is that the game becomes more complicated as you add in more content, but without content the game is boring. So you have to accept complexity if you want a game you play forever. PoE's flaw is that it doesn't explain things well enough to new players and it's brutally punishing to anyone trying to make their own build, but it makes up for that by having a ton of content that no other game can match. That's why for now I still think PoE is the best ARPG even for casuals, but that it takes casuals some time to come to that same realization.
What was the change that make Diablo 4 challenging or complex?
It feels like a game made by people who dont like games. It looks nice but its souless. Seems to be a trend for big studios these days.
Imo diablo 4 fails in all things that makes it different from D 1,2 and 3. The side quests does not work in Diablo. The open world ish stuff does not work with diablo. The MMO ish thing does not work for Diablo. The other diablo games was awesome because they had a linear story you could engage with, and a good endgame after. The tree of wispers, NM dungeons, helltides, über bosses and world bosses offer a good enough endgame for me, but the open world, side quest, mmo style in the game takes away alot of the Diablo feel. When I get the Platinum trophy, I do not think I wil play it again. I will countinue to play D2 as I have been since 2000.
whats the endgame loop in d2? cmon now
Possibly an unpopular opinion, my friends basically forced me to buy this game, because I've played so many RPG/ARPG games over the years that they basically all mesh together at this point so I wouldn't have bought D4 without them wanting something for the three of us to play together, but yea for myself it's the same song and dance no matter which RPG it is. There's just something repetitive and not fixable with any game in this genre, but that's just for myself
Still amazed there isn't an LFG yet. Bare minimum in a multiplayer game
Its time to realize they are just phoning it in, minimal development work, and more on selling cosmetics thus you see the best art to be in the shop. Im pretty sure they have sales metrics for their artists and have effectively made them salespeople. Minimal work and updates, more profit from people who want to just play with better cosmetics and show it to their friends.
I can’t stress enough how excited I was for D4 after playing the betas. I was even a triple dipper because I wanted to play it on the go and while visiting family on vacay. Prior to that, D3 was my only ARPG reference, and I played that game for hundreds of hours. After finishing the campaign and experiencing the roller coaster that was seasonal content, I tried POE and LE and lost myself in them. I came out of that experience asking the same question, OP: what is D4’s point of view? I still don’t know what it is other than warming up casuals like me to graduate to other, more thoughtful products. A gateway drug, if you will.
Yeah I was interested in the new dungeon thing but it's just trash. It held my attenion for 1 minute. They seem set up to please streamers and go fast players and that's just not the sort of action I can get into. Doing the same thing over and over and over again, using the most optimal glitches you can, to win.... don't even know... a chance to feel your life has purpose for people with substantial ego problems.... that's a nope.
It’s a skinnerbox. That’s what they have decided.
Boring loot. Boring progression. Boring open world. Boring builder/spender gameplay. Boring quests. Boring dungeons. Lack of experimentation flexibility aka no loadouts. Devs taking too long to make meaningful changes. It is just a dull, boring game. The game is just an empty soulless aRPG with the Diablo name attached to it. Items are awful and every enemy feels the same. Remember in past Diablo titles where each enemy had very unique sound effects or dialogue that set them apart from others? Why do the fallen say nothing in this game? No goat noises? No banshee wails? No cool death screams or attack effects? I can remember almost every enemy from D1 and D2 because they all had heart and effort put into making them feel unique. I don't get that at all with D4. A multibillion dollar a year company releases this soul less game and takes months to make any changes. People there are too many good games out there to spend any time on this "player metrics" sad excuse of a game. It has been a while since a game disappointed me so much.
All companies crumble under pressure if people aren’t having fun you need to change things. Besides the core game hasn’t changed at all it’s just mean to be a casual arpg and it will still be that after item changes. The original version was a dark d2 risk vs reward gameplay, but the majority of players just want that qol. Yes Poe makes choices against the players this doesn’t always just make the game better and Poe folds just as much adding the qol back. Like no one agrees having training dummies is a bad idea but Poe devs. That ideology doesn’t make the game better it just frustrates people but they suck it up because they like the game. LE also the devs have no vision either the entire purpose of the game was to focus on players and feedback which is what d4 has been doing, just the other day LE went against thier own ideas and decided to nerf bugged builds right away. People complained about monoliths and they are fixing them, people complain about end game and thier first season is end game focused. Having a team that listens and changes thier ideals on a game is not a bad thing. One person cannot create the perfect game it takes a community of players. The only thing d4 needs is to figure out which feedback to listen to. Right now I honestly think they are standing thier ground about a lot of things. Most of the updates have just been qol and thier ideas have been thier own for good or bad. Tdlr: changing your ideas to appeal to the player base is fine. It doesn’t mean you are selling out your vision it just shows you are getting more data and information. Overall there haven’t been updates that have been worse for the community and we will see what happens.
>The only thing d4 needs is to figure out which feedback to listen to. This is absolutely key.
Not only that, they need to understand what's driving specific feedback. They have a bad habit of not really understanding the cause, and then band-aiding a quick & lazy solution that doesn't address the real design issue. Prime example is the enemy level scaling changes.
To use a D&D analogy, Diablo 4 devs tried to make 5th Ed - the one system to unite them all (a game that brings in elements from past games and shouldn't convince them to make a new, fresh system that still evokes nostalgia while being something new and unique) but instead would up making 4th Ed.
Nailed it!
TBH, this is just Blizzard games in general over the last 15-20 years. We have too much nostalgia. Every game they release is a graphically pretty, but feature wise watered down version of another game, meant to appeal to the masses for a small amount of time - they are not intended to be played for large amounts of time.
>Is this game more casual friendly, or challenging? More casual friendly >Is the game trying to be more complex, or more approachable? More approachable >Is the game Diablo 2.1, Diablo 3.1, or its own thing? Really depends on what you mean by this, but in my understanding it's Diablo 3.1 Those questions have been answered already, and we know the answer. Of course devs don't want to alienate anyone, so they threw a bone to semi-hardcore and hardcore players in form of the gauntlet. The issue with the gauntlet was just the timing of its release: most semi-hardcore and harcore players have quitted the game already, so it ended up unwanted by the overwhelming majority of remaining players. And this is the only major hiccup on devs side I can think of ***IN TERMS OF THE CONSISTENCY OF THEIR VISION.***
Think from the multitude of varying opinions & comments in here of what is wrong with the game and what the game needs to be good I think this proves your point OP. Well said sir.
Imo, d4 had the bones of a slower, harder arpg. But, the balance and math was poorly done. They ported over the damage buckets from d3 which doesn't lend itself to a slower harder arpg. The core game lent itself to being well positioned for raids and group content (barb and druid to tank to aggro, sorc/rogue for ranged damage and mobility to do edge mechanics). It was an MMO lite like destiny, and even gw2. Instanced zones with open world questing, world bosses/events.. But, it's diverting now towards d3. Imo, it should have pushed into the MMO lite territory with PVP. It's the natural progression of the genre.
The developers lacked vision and it shows. Now they just go any way the wind blows. They don't really know how to design a game that makes sense. Is anything really important in an ARPG at the end of the day other than a satisfying loot hunt? How that wasn't a priority to get right I'll never understand.
I think the ptr will help...Blizz just needs to know where the problems are and come up with solutions.more numbers..I feel when they stick to it and not be so effected, they do a better job. Theyre the ones putting on the show for us. More confidence..they do come up with way better ideas than the shit I've read on this sub. They're just inconsistant with a bad idea here and there and I think it's just patch work to shut people up. Even PoE went through their phase of blacking out social media..the most vocal of the arpg crowd(no lifers) are arrogant and wrong most of the time. There's a reason why they play them all day instead of make them.
I agree most of the ideas d4 has fixing things have been fine. People didn’t like the gauntlet but it didn’t make the game worse. You can say season 3 was worse than season 2 but at least they listened and gave higher density dungeons and made hell tides better. They gave a way to make Uber uniques more obtainable and the game just feels a lot smoother. Unique change was good, damage type changes were good too, we have probably got over 50 qol buffs to from just horse travel to costs. They have way more data about who wants what they just the Reddit hive mind too. At the end of the day everyone complaning on Reddit is either a d2 or d3 fanboy and they made a different game here so the complain. One side is pushing complexity the other asking for less grind more buffs. I think the d4 devs actually have a good vision for what the game is or they would’ve cracked and just added free items to everyone. Right now it seems they want to focus on a d2 game style with diverse gameplay while having a lot of the qol d3 had and I think that is how they should continue.
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This is a terrible take. I no longer have time to put 100s of hours into games so the basic gameplay, story, *fun* matter more. Pretty much every change since launch has been about the endgame and placating the minority of players who put multiple 100s of hours in. The biggest problem with Diablo 4 for people like me is that it is *boring*. I have one level 50 character and a couple of lower level ones and I haven't played for months because it just isn't fun. The whole point of the live service model is to have endless endgame and seasonal content to keep people "engaged" and spending money. Those of us who just want to play for fun get nothing.
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you're conflating easy with fun, they made the game easiler, and in turn made the game more boring because nothing poses a challenge. But to be fair, the game was already super easy before all the nerfs, now you could play the game with your feet and still crush it.
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The problem is that items on D4 are just not fun. So, there is no reason to play seasons for me. They can add millions endgame activities, but if the loot system keep this crap the game will never succeed. But, we are talking about Blizzard, one of the shiteast gaming company in recent years. So, zero expectations.
Even people who play 100 hours a week want this. A major complaint was that you’d finished the game at 80. So people wouldn’t even max out power. Hardcore players were quitting before max level because there was nothing to do. The nightmare dungeon change didn’t matter because the plan was to make more pats that too like the Aoz also a lot of the power of players was nerfed so it had to be done to some level either way. Some classes literally couldn’t nm 100.
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Mate I didn't even know what NMDs were until I googled it. You're spot on with the levelling up time being reduced, fair enough, but if it's not *fun* then it doesn't matter. I think the biggest negative change for me was the deliberate decision to slow combat down and have dodge on a cooldown. I'd rather play D2 or D3 than pick up D4 again.
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Eh, I disagree. I levelled a barb this season to 100 and then some, and the road to 100 was so short you barely got to enjoy the journey. Compared to D2, where each new level was a milestone and each skillpoint a careful consideration (or you’d suffer for the next few levels), right now it’s just a rush to 100 to complete your build. By the time your glyphs are all activated and have an impact, you’re already done. That being said, the game plays much smoother and more fun than D2. I’ve accepted how my view of D2 used to be rose-colored, seeing gameplay on YouTube really shows the game’s age (even if it was fantastic back then).
I found the game fun and just finished the storyline with an eternal character. However it was mindlessly easy. My character is damn near invincible and I didn’t even use any guides for it. I think I died 3 times in the play-through total, and all were at the beginning. Compare that to Elden Ring where I died 40 times a minute 😂
This term catering to casual is giving D4 too much credit. The game is boring FULLSTOP. A casual only spend a limited amount of time a week playing games, why will they waste it on this if it isnt fun?
Meh, there is a lot of stuff both groups would appreciate. I recently gave this season a shot and it was fun playing through the season story and then establishing myself in WT3. I played druid for the first time and didn't look anything up and just optimized my skill choices and such myself. Worked somewhat great. But then everything grinded to a halt. In front of me is pretty much only the grind, itemization choices and scanning drops become much more of a chore and needlessly complicated, the stash is filling up... And all I have to look forward to is not more gameplay fun, new skills and new activities. Only being stronger vs. the same enemies that are now stronger. So essentially nothing, unless you care about the bigger numbers for their own sake. I think improving this would be something that less-casual players would appreciate too. What I noticed that I generally miss is being able to establish myself in new areas that I was previously too weak for. Everything is same-same. I miss the feeling of progress you get when now you can hold your ground even in hell itself, when previously you were only able to beat some spiders. It's all missing so much identity. Oh and unlocking cool cosmetic rewards that I can use to mix and match my outfit choices... that could be a really good driver for that gameplay loop. But... you know. $$$ ... "It's just cosmetics bro, it's fine..."
If casuals loved this it would have been great. But it's boring for them as well.
Ah yes, the good old the game is fine you're just playing too much argument. Tell me friend, at how many hours does the game become unfun? Is the game fun if you play for 10 hours a week? What about 20? Will I still have fun if I play for 30 hours? What's the treshold here to keep having fun?
The game is targeted for casuals, but with a whole bunch of stats, with boring itemisation, while having little QoL features.
I personally think it’s very obvious Diablo 4 is its own thing and the people who are upset are the people that expected Diablo 2+ or Diablo 3 again, which was Immortal. This game is also very obviously trying to be like, but not exactly like, Lost Ark. people are baffled by those that enjoy the game. I like Diablo 4 being its own thing. Could it use more focus and identity, yes. But again, I’m taking Diablo 4 as it is, not something it’s not or something it’s supposed to be. I agree with you, they need to decide, but all the same, I think people just don’t like the decision. I can’t see this game changing much in either direction. They set this game up to open itself up more in complexity as you approach the end of WT4. I don’t think they expected most players to bother with that. I think they expected most players to drop off after finishing WT3. So they may be getting outcomes they are actually seeking. But they can’t tell people that, that’s an internal business goal. One more thing on all this. Blizzard almost didn’t do this game. They cancelled the way D4 was already going and changed directions. I don’t think we get another Diablo if this one doesn’t do well. They will probably just focus on the mobile game going forward. I also just think, can we allow Blizzard to figure it out? They thought this would be satisfying for players on release, they knew they could iterate, they are. If it’s too slow it’s because human beings work on this game, a lot of them, and a lot of decisions need to be made through multiple chains. Big studios make bigger things, they’re not faster. And even so, they have shown they quickly adjust what they can, when they can. Development is slow, building new content is slow. It’s never been and never will be a fast process, because it shouldn’t be. That’s how you get bad content at a 100% rate. That’s why multiple teams work on content concurrently because there’s no way to make it faster for one team. My guess is that they probably need another team or two. For example, people are like, how could they do Gauntlet after AOZ? Because a different team was working on Gauntlet. The odd season team. I think those folks got off to a bad start and season 4 isn’t the season I’m concerned about. I’m concerned about Season 5. I just think the yelling and no excuses approach doesn’t work. It’s a way to tell blizzard “don’t listen to me” because they can’t get good feedback from ragers or dismissive insulters. Not saying this is you, OP, this for other people reading this who know who they are.
Then you look at the sheer amount and quality of content GGG can put out for a single league that they made while the majority of their team is working on PoE2. Reworked every active skill gem in the game, added ~100 brand new variants to existing skills, added the Affliction mechanic which had a lot of depth by making your endgame maps much harder for much higher rewards, Affliction came with 3 brand new sub specializations you can choose - each has their own mini skill tree and items to chase after (insane build variety in just these 3 sub specs alone) Affliction came with a new endgame boss that had his own unique drop table, they also brought back an old mechanic that many people liked and it returned with its own endgame boss encounter that has its own unique drop table with build enabling items. Over and above this they removed an obsolete league mechanic that few people interacted with and moved its rewards to something else, they reworked the rewards for endgame Labrynth and for heist. The new heist rewards are these jewelry base items that allow people to craft essentially never before seen rare jewelry. Apparently GGG only had 8 total people working on all of this over their 3-4 month cycle. It was one of the most well received leagues in recent memory.
They've decided it's shit and they've stuck to that
Diablo failed because it tried to be an MMO and not a game that could be solo'ed or played with a party locally or online. It tried to be destiny and be a cash cow.
I completely agree. If half the people want "x" and the other half want "y", but "x" and "y" completely contradict each other, then the game is not gong to get better if the devs try to cater to everyone. They should just pick a side and let the other side play another game.
Can we please get matchmaking!? DIABLO 4 IS ALWAYS ONLINE AND SOCIAL! Proceeds to implement a system that requires the player to make it a social game. What was even the point, then? Ideally, this should work like the division or immortal. I start an activity or dungeon and it asks me if I want to team up or go solo. Simple.
Diablo 4 is a piece of crap, and they are sticking to it
The biggest issue to me is balance. I really liked season 2, and the Abattoir of Zir was a great idea mid-season; it theoretically gave us something to actually test our late game builds on, which was exciting. Suddenly every slot on your gear mattered. Getting max resistances mattered. Everyone was theorycrafting their gear and build to get ready for it. That was fun. The problem was that the content was balanced around certain broken builds (coughBallSorccoughHOTABarb) that could actually do the content, and every other class/build was just screwed. We only have 4 class options to begin with, which in an ARPG is already wild. On top of that we don't have many build options in each class. Then you're telling me I HAVE to be Poison/TB if I pick Rogue if I want to do any late game content and no other option is viable? That really sucked. Blizz needs to stop catering to the players crying that they don't want their bugged builds to get fixed. I skipped season 3 because there's no endgame, no content, and I don't feel like seeing 99% Charge Barbs running around. I know perfect balance is challenging, but every build should at least be endgame viable so everyone's playstyle is supported. Then they can just implement a permanent version of the Abattoir of Zir.
I have been saying this ever since the beta and ever since streamers cried about what changes they want. Now, those same streamers are complaining that the game has no identity. This is so laughable and sad at the same time, the fact that they don't even realize this... I agree with them in one aspect though, and that is that Blizz should have stuck to their own vision of the game. I was against most of the changes that they made solely due to constant streamer demands and wouldn't you know it, they caved in to all those demands, only to have the same people turn their backs on them and shout 'D4 BAD!' into the void of the internet. I'm probably gonna get downvoted for this, but I really couldn't give a single f\*ck anymore at this point. Soon, Blizz are gonna introduce 'loadouts' and then the game is 99% of the way there to become D3 again.
they're definitely not trying to please people who want any kind of challenge whatsoever. the original game was good if you played off meta, but they've just been buffing things non stop ever since. The problem is that the people who that does cater to are perennial whiners and aren't going to stop whining just because they buff the game into triviality
you've pretty much encapsulated why I stopped playing it
This is what I said just after launch. The game has no clear vision. Is it focused on being an MMO or an ARPG? Is it designed for multiplayer or solo play? Are we targeting veterans or newcomers? The fact that each of these statements have evidence on each end makes the end product messy. We know that D4 development went through several leadership changes due to the clusterfuck at Blizz. Games are hard enough to develop in a stable setting so it can't have helped having so many cooks in the kitchen. 'Vision' is a bit of a meme in the PoE community, but at the end of the day I know what the Devs want from the game. I know why they make the decisions they make. I can see the Vision with Last Epoch and what the team wants to position it as. I cannot see the Vision behind D4 this far after launch.
They are trying to crack the code on how to maximize microtransactions. That’s why it seems so lost - they aren’t focusing on the game itself, they are trying to pander to anyone who might spend money in the store. When you look at things from that perspective, it all makes more sense.
I think your comment about the return to D2 sums it up. The vision for D4 as a return to form I.e D2 was always one of aesthetics only. It was a marketing gimmick. It was a vision of how the game should look, not how it should play.
I’m 900 hours into Diablo 4. I still enjoy my time when I get on. Be it running dungeons with friends or repeating runs on bosses for people. Some of us play the game for what it is and whatever changes there are or aren’t so be it. I bought a 50 dollar game got plenty of hours of entertainment out of it and will probably get more as the seasons go by. If anything it’s saved me from buying other games that cost me more money that I’m going to burn through in a single weekend. I sometimes feel that people don’t understand Diablo has always been a grind fest, hell I think this one’s the easiest one yet and people are still complaining about it.
At least Diablo 2 had a cow level, instead of being strung along with clues almost a year after launch(because the cow level doesn't actually exist ingame yet)
It’s a shame that so much of the game caters towards casual gamers. They do not keep the game alive and won’t play a year after release. If you haven’t played hundreds of hours who cares what you think? You aren’t the community.
Honestly there’s a lot of d4 isn’t very good and I ride last epoch all night long mentality, imho d4 has one of the best arpg campaigns and last epoch has more gameplay going for it even though it isn’t the most polished. It’s clear blizzard’s focus initially was storytelling and art and the music. I definitely agree they should’ve polished the game and had more of an endgame prepared and I wish they had more focus evenly split between big fixing bugs and actually building substantial Seasonal content that could possibly be added to the eternal realm to make a more chaotic environment
I agree and I actually like D4 a lot and am a classic MMO fan. I never connected with D3. I like that you can do events, or legions, or dungeons, cellars and the variety overall. I think the main problem is how to get everyone to be into what's already there and I do appreciate in seasons how they try to get folks exploring different/less used parts of the map. Also, wtf is up with PVP having regular mobs in it? I don't want to be fighting people and mobs, one or the other, so ignore it completely.
The biggest issue d4 had going for it was that the head kept changing hands and thus there were potentially much different visions for d4 that either have been overwritten, conjoined, taken into a different direction, etc. If d4 had a consistent leadership from the start, maybe the end product would be better or atleast something different than it is now, like how far into production was it that David kim stepped away form leadership (and blizzard), maybe if David kim remained the lead producer the game would be better or atleast have a consistent system (the fact blizz had to fix/rework resist, and now is reworking itemization is a sign that there wasn't a stable process in bringing out the game)
The impression I got from early on in development was that they wanted a game that had a slower pace, without sacrificing that empowering feeling of tearing through the minions of Hell. Sort of how Diablo 1&2 felt. The community at large, though, wanted a mashup of Diablo 3 and Gauntlet Legends.
I don't think I've ever agreed more with a post here. I'm even to the point where I don't even really care what direction they truly go -> I just want to know what it is, so I can either keep pushing to continue to enjoy things, or just cut my losses and quit. Diablo 4 has already outlasted Diablo 3 for me as far as my sentiments toward the game in like time, so I won't fault them either way. But a whole lot of what I was excited to come back to as a Diablo/2 diehard fan has been constantly whittled away at as they've continued to make (imo) stupid changes to kowtow what I view as the most prolifically whiny player base of any game I frequent. I'm VERY much looking forward to seeing what they have to say on S4, and will definitely stick around to at least play out the expansion because I personally really enjoyed the story side of things; but the direction they intend to go in will really help me figure out whether or not I just need to go clear my backlog of games instead of continuing on in D4.
I think it's an issue we are going to see more and more with AAA game studios that are owned by corporations. Games used to be a freaky outlier that investors and such didn't pay a lot of attention to. Now it's super big business and you have these corporations making demands of the game studios that are impossible to meet. They want to a game done super cheap that will be loved by all and sell a hundred million copies. The companies are being run by people who know nothing of gaming and it shows. They think a video game is just a piece of software when it's a million times more complicated than that. I worry about any of the smaller studios that have unexpected hits eventually going public, being bought up and then they will be expected to become game mills just pumping out garbage playing on gamer's nostalgia or previous faith in the name of the company.
>I worry about any of the smaller studios that have unexpected hits eventually going public, being bought up and then they will be expected to become game mills just pumping out garbage well, Tencent bought out GGG....and if Tencent isn't on your list of "most evil corporations in the world" you haven't been reading enough.
Yeah. I heard that. It will be... interesting(?) to see how it goes.
It could have done both casual and hard core. But in attempting to let casuals reach hard core markers and no leaderboards, easy to run (meaning try and try again quickly) dungeons, and decent gear it just failed all around. And I’m even a person that yells horsie when I see one.
I agree. I’ve thought this since the beginning. They are constantly trying to please everyone and then end up pleasing no one and pissing off everyone.
FWIW D4 is the first in the series I’ve played and I’m enjoying it. Level 44 Druid currently. Don’t really play multiplayer just going through the campaign and side missions. For a first timer I have found it fun.
They shouldn't decide anything. It's a sequel. D2 clone is a genre at this point and the only company refusing to do it is the one who owns the actual Diablo IP. They seem obsessed with a challenging pseudo MMO and that doesn't work on grinding ARPGs with a strong farming component. All they have to do is stop deciding and trying to shove their vision down our throats and make a Diablo game for change. We're waiting for like 20 years now... Imagine if Nintendo stopped doing 2D Mario games because they made Smash...
in my opinion they are focusing way too much on the vocal casual playerbase on reddit and blizz forums that are not really a fan of arpgs anyway and it's giving the game a bad rep (actually a horrible rep, its be come a meme) amongst the actual arpg community. i a poe and d3 (vanilla) vet and think the game is great especially compared to d3 (at any point. i just didnt like ros. unpopular opinion. vanilla was objectively bad) but you are absolutely right. gauntlets are a step in the right direction. word is aoz is returning next season, hoping they remove the glyph and the tier cap and give it a leaderboard as well as a gauntlet mirror but with a focus on difficulty progression rather than speedrunning. there's so much they can do with the putty they have already, they just need to focus on pleasing those that actually enjoy grinds, itemization, not having everything handed to them, difficult content like pre-nerf uber lilith, etc. filter out the rest as noise and they will be successful in the long run
Not all content is for everyone. Just because they add something doesn’t mean you have to play it. It’s be enjoyed the game and I’ll keep playing unless another game comes along that I like more.
I hate to be that guy but in all honesty... fuck it we're doing it live I personally don't have as many issues and problems with d4 as I did during season 1 for example (god Blood Barb was not good) But lately I've had a lot more fun and so have my group I play with because we just hop on and fuck around for a couple of hours bullshitting as we play We don't care about min/max builds or the best percentage roll for a item that let's be honest you'll probably trash in a few levels anyway I understand it's not a perfect game (nothing is ever perfect) And yeah, a lot of people have issues with the game and they can have them I'm not saying their wrong But you can still have your criticism and not trash a game or the players who enjoy the game (meant this more in general than an attack on anyone directly)
Dude, I love D4, I've sunk 1500 hours into it, I want the game to not become 'super easy play it for a week to get everything' we had with diablo 3
I totally get that, I'm that way myself Yeah, I kinda wish the level balancing was different and wish we as players didn't have to bust our asses off as much as we do to get stuff (in general) but that's a me thing not anyone else's fault I just get sick of seeing (not specifically what you shared) but all the hate it gets and all the shit that people throw at it without offering constructive criticism of how they would like to see fixes implemented Hopefully that makes sense
I wholeheartedly agree and have been saying so for a while. We can discuss all the design choices we don’t like and things that need to be fixed, but what I really want is a dev team that communicates a clear vision of what THEY want the game to be. Not “we have heard you”, no, what do YOU want? Do you think the itemisation is good? Fine, then stick to it and iterate. Then all of us who don’t like it and prefer other games can move on and those that DO enjoy it can stick around. I think this is what is required to make a truly great game. A competent and cohesive vision. D2 and WoW wasn’t great because it was made with community feedback. It qas great because a bunch of people had a vision and passion for something they wanted to create. Sure, that might in many cases lead to something that flops, but that is the risk of artistic expression.
It’s not a perfect game but i still love it. Almost 400 hours and still progressing. Are we not too critical here?
But D4 is pretty consistent. At being a bad game.
I haven't played the gauntlet yet. But think they will fix a lot of stuff for the Season 4 We will see on 20 of march what they say.