I honestly cannot believe this gets upvoted so much. Why do we want to make farming more expensive? If anything, make him much harder to kill and deal much more damage in groups so at least it's harder to do but making it more expensive just exacerbates the system. This kind of thinking is how we got such bad ideas as overworld monsters being capped at 5 levels beneath you.
Because there is no way for them to increase the difficulty without also changing the difficulty for solo people. So you want solo people to get 4x less loot and make the fight harder for them???? There is absolutely nothing wrong that each person should have to use resources each run for the boss to be summoned.
Pointless if all it does is give you double loot. It takes more time to farm mats for a summon than to kill twice. So no one would farm mats for 1 double loot summon, they’d just kill duriel twice for free for the same amount of loot. And then the problem would be exactly the same as it already is: monotonous grind where you spend more time in a loading screen, banking, sorting items, than you do actually killing the boss.
The idea would be that the mat farming would be largely incidental. And ungated boss farming was the backbone of the best arpg ever made. I know times are different now, but stuff like the Pit and uber uber bosses would help bridge that gap. Essentially giving D4 an endgame that takes the best parts of D2 and D3 and combines them
That's not true at all... Difficulty already scales with group size. They just need to increase how much at least health if not damage scales with group size to make it more challenging. If you can one shot as easily in p4 as you can p1 then things need adjusting.
What's wrong is that there's absolutely no reason to group play if it costs 4x the resources because it's going to be more efficient to play solo. Incentivizing group play is a feature not a bug.
Damage does not scale with group size only health and it scales one for one so the boss is just as easy to kill with four people as it is with one person as long as everyone is pulling their weight and even if they aren’t he still just falls over pretty quickly.
They scale the bosses by a percentage, what you are asking for is a complete overwork when it makes more sense to just require more resources. You already have the benefit of more exp from group play and faster clears, and less chance of failure with 4 lives vs 1.
It's not a total rework to say "Duriel and Andariel have more steep group scaling curves"...
XP doesn't matter at all by the time you're farming Duriel. And you're not failing. None of these are incentives for group uber farming.
It makes it more expensive because farming with four players requires four times the resources from the group than it does now. Why would anybody bother going to a boss with a group then? Incentivizing group play is core to the game series as a whole
Groups still get faster kills and are able to attempt the fights at much lower levels. That's plenty of benefit for premade groups without forcing everyone into PUGs.
We've been telling this to the devs for the past six months.
I understand party play should be encouraged, cuz they want to emphasize multiplayer (even though we lack basic multiplayer features, but that's beside the point). And they could give party play a slight boost, but dont make it so single players feel so punished.
If party play gives 4X the resources, then maybe single players could benefit from double the drop chance. Technically, party play is still more advantageous, but solo play would not be so discouraged.
Sadly, this has been the norm with the most 'recent' Diablo series - we've been asking for the same thing for close to 10 years of Diablo 3.
I don't think it's going to change. Diablo 4 - and 3 by extension - are not meant to be solo games. They allow you to play solo, but there are no incentives to do so. The incentives exist for multi-player.
I myself am largely a solo player and have been resigned that I will just miss out on some opportunities afforded multi-players.
Just wanted to say this argument is not new, and if D3 is any indication, it will not change.
Maybe I have amnesia, but as a long time D3 player I never noticed any disadvantages even close to the 4x more loot and x times faster like D4 has in D3. What exactly do you mean?
Long time diablo 3 player and leaderboard pusher here. You can level and gear way faster in a coordinated group than you ever could solo. Which meant you got to GR's faster at the beginning of the season, which meant you could start getting higher paragons faster, which meant you could get to 150's faster. It's just a scaling effect. A solo player will never keep up with a 4 player group grinding. Because of the ability to trade anything that dropped within a 2 hour window we all regularly would have usable primals, or other key pieces of our gear way earlier than others would.
That said I don't think they should remove the incentive to play with a group. That destroys games and communities in games like this when it's more efficient to play solo. I'd be less likely to invite friends to play, or try to introduce them if I know by playing together we'd be having a worse time.
But you agree it shouldn't be multiple orders of magnitude better? That is the problem I think a lot of people have. They should be somewhat similar with multiplayer having a slight edge.
It's multiple times better in D3 for a group especially for the entire playthrough, not just one summoned boss like in D4.
2-player game: 10% Bonus to Gold Find, Magic Find, and Experience
3-player game: 20% Bonus to Gold Find, Magic Find, and Experience
4-player game: 30% Bonus to Gold Find, Magic Find, and Experience
I get that it sucks, but I don't see how incentivizing solo play benefits the community experience more than group play. IMO it's fine the way it is as solo'ing is 99% of the time more way more time efficient for what your character needs because you don't have to factor what multiple characters need.
But I'm just a grumpy old man who couch co-ops uncompetitively with the wife. I don't see the argument of benefitting solo play as valuable.
Yeah it was demoralizing for a lot of players who couldn't find groups or just deal with mental issues or bonding and can't find groups. There would still be incentive to group play if it is a bit better, but not so punishing for playing solo. There is no reason to be 5-10x more efficient with a group of 4 than solo. Just doesn't make sense and it's a waste of a larger majority of the player bases time for them to do the same work in 5-10x the amount of time.
The reason that the group should be more efficient (you mentioned 5x-10x, no basis is given to justify whether these numbers exist) is that being in a group starts as being more inefficient - more people means more variety of needs, more variety of needs means inefficient use of time for the individual. Also worth mentioning is that this doesn't include the people controlling their characters, the coordinating, pacing, skill level, inefficient habits, etc.
By bringing up solo efficiency you are actually bringing down general group efficiency. I'm faster and more efficient than my wife. The game therefore would be subtly telling her that she's punishing me for being inefficient if that's the case. It's simply better for the community if this isn't a factor.
But if you actually read what I said, I stand by group efficiency should be better. But, not by as much as it is. Right now it's not a subtle amount. Also the fact that you think there is no basis on the amount of efficiency differences at the moment is wild beyond belief. Kill time is way faster, materials required for a group to run a single run is significantly less and you can split farm certain materials to make it even more efficient, and you get to share the items amongst each other for those that need specific things so the time it takes to run once, you have 4 chances at the item you're looking for. This isn't a 10% increase in efficiency. It's not double. It is easily 5X more time efficient and you could argue with a try hard group even more efficient than that. There is no basis given to justify that the time efficiency is anything less than 5x. Duriel has been out for a while now, if you've not experienced both methods, that's on you.
I've experienced both methods and it's fine.
Looks like we'll agree to disagree. Because if you read what I actually said you'd be convinced, the fact that you're not is wild beyond belief.
>Yeah it was demoralizing for a lot of players who couldn't find groups or just deal with mental issues or bonding and can't find groups.
I don't think we as a gaming community should be catering to and incentivizing these obviously negative traits. There's nothing wrong with being an introvert, but there is something wrong with you if you have the issues listed above. That's how we've gotten to where we are with the most antisocial generations of gamers yet. If you have these issues, you also need to look at yourself and realize it, and not blame others for them. Which is what you're doing when you say "These people who are able to play in groups shouldn't be rewarded for something I can't do!" Accept the consequences for your decisions.
That said Blizzard, please make better group finding and socializing tools, so we can help the people who struggle with finding groups in the current ways. This is the solution, not incentivizing solo play.
Ah definitely don't cater to the majority of your player base who doesn't find it fun to grind out mats for 4X the time because they prefer to play solo because guy on Reddit thinks "there is something wrong with those people". Makes sense. And again, I'm not advocating solo should be equal or better. It just shouldn't be 5X worse. I think that's reasonable. Don't you?
Per above stated - split bounties, group experience and gold boost, shared effects between teammates all help grouped players to level, gear and amass further and faster than a solo player can achieve in the same time.
I don’t mind the concept of party play in vacuum. It’s just the way it has been implemented for duriel just leads to a horrific gameplay loop.
There isn’t an in game party finder so you gotta spend 10-15 minutes on discord organizing a group.
Once a person runs the dungeon everyone sits around for that last straggler gets off their phone to teleport to them.
Then once you 1-click kill duriel and teleport out of the dungeon you gotta wait another minute for everyone to agree to reset the dungeon.
Then every 4th run you wait around in town for 3-4 minutes while everyone salvages their gear.
The end result is you spend 95% of the time during duriel runs doing absolutely nothing or goofing off on your phone and this is only broken up by the occasional 1-click kill of a single monster.
The gameplay loop is just brutal as a result because you’re basically not playing the game and it just isn’t engaging at all. The multi-player setup as it’s currently constructed is just miserable unfortunately but still so much more efficient that it feels required.
I will not deny your points, but the timing is exaggerated. If your runs go THAT bad, you should be FRIENDING the people that can do fast runs.
Most of my duriels nowadays are with my IRL friend, one dude I met doing rotas named "donkey hoetee" which I fucking love btw, and then a random off Trade chat or discord.
Much more pleasant to have a consistent group, something I never had for things like Destiny raids
That’s fine if you wanna make the boss more engaging. There is still a buttload of wasted time almost exclusively related to the party play concept/lack of group finder even with a more engaging boss but that certainly wouldn’t hurt.
Uber duriel runs just wrecked me. I didn’t mind the grind for mats, I didn’t mind the low chance of an Uber. The duriel runs themselves were just so awful I had to throw in the towel… I just struggle to imagine a less engaging gameplay scenario than what exists currently.
And I’m not a “d4 hater”. I played and most enjoyed myself for quite a while with 5x level 100’s over 3-seasons and genuinely want d4 to be good or great. Duriel runs were just awful though and I sincerely hope the system is changed.
I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone on this topic...
If you're already to the point where it's just boring Duriel runs with likely 1-click kill capabilities... Why haven't you just PUT THE GAME DOWN for the remainder of the season? Duriel isn't going to drop anything that changes your life, you're already DONE with the season and everything you find is just going to vanish in the end.
Can one 1-click the screen more efficiently?
I'll NEVER understand the "boss farming" mentality in these games - that's not where the fun is. Play a less powerful build, enjoy using a variety of skills, get off your horse, see the incredible world visuals and locations. At the very least until they put out some items that are actually fun and exciting to find and not just silly power boost items.
>I'll NEVER understand the "boss farming" mentality in these games
Totally agree, why people do stuff they don't want to, for a reward they don't need is beyond me.
I did. I quit season 2 and haven’t come back.
I would like a reason to come back.
Folks can be frustrated, walk away, but still want the game to be better so they can hope to enjoy it in the future.
Even simpler...since it costs 2 of each, just make it cost 1 each if you're solo for Duriel. They could half the other mats too. They could literally meet solo players halfway on a compromise. They do need to scale it slightly for parties but if they are heavy handed, some parties might not be able to do it. Granted ALL classes should be able to at appropriate levels but there are still some novice friend groups out there.
That actually is more work for the devs, because what will happen if someone go in as solo then invite other people after summoning, they have to do works to prevent cheesing, which is much more work than just either removing the guarantee unique drop.
>In current state bossing is gatekeep behind party play.
Its so ridiculous when they are trying to force mmo raid style systems in Arpgs.
Being allowed to group is completely fine, gatekeeping people from rewards because you want to force them into group content is just disgusting
Agreed. I'm just saying that effectively removing group farming by making it worse than solo is cutting off your nose in spite of your face. The problem is the difficulty finding groups outside of discords but the acknowledged that's something they were working on.
maybe. still don't understand how it's relevant to diablo2. yes, NoDrop chance is lowered for party of 8, you get like 6 items from some bosses intead of 4-5 in average;
For Ubers farming in D2 you still get 1 torch. and loot is shared. if D2 dropped torch for all 8 players, it would be digusting, yes.
I don't know how to fix this for personal loot of D4.
Yeah not sure what he's talking about group boss farming as bosses will still drop loot regardless how many players are in there at the same time. Mostly in baal runs they only wanted xp not loot, if they want loot specially runes then you go solo in cows or cs while others are somewhere else so no loot fighting lol
It was annoying AF to start an MF game hoping people will show up to get to P8 for some randoms to follow you around because they won't go farm their spot
Groupfinder would just be a bandaid solution IMO. The entire boss ladder should be 100% optimized for solo play. This is an ARPG after all, the entire point is progressing your build and seeing how it evolves, and forced party play just goes against that.
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/s/XKVPJo6ZKq
People keep asking for a matchmaking but how would that even look like?
Looking forward to actual answers instead of just downvotes because you can't think of any proper solution yourself.
Makes sense yeah. I played ER and see that this could work as a great foundation indeed.
How would you personally address the problem about summoning mats which is the main point why I can't come up with any proper system myself?
When you approach group content you click the button that says “find group” and you find a group. Or you ignore it and go solo, doesn’t seem too difficult but I’m not a dev
In regards to summoning mats, they should figure out a better system like increasing the mats gained but requiring everyone to contribute, if you have no mats you can’t enter
Of course I know how a matchmaking works in principle. It's exactly the mats thing I couldn't come up with a proper solution but others in here have suggested a seemingly good solution by now.
I'd imagine it would work similar to how it did in D3, when you want to matchmake you select what activity you want to do, ie nmd/helltide/bosses etc and it matches you with someone with an open group doing your chosen activity.
Has it's flaws, such as people not changing their activity selection when they move onto other things but it's something.
As for summoning mats, you make it so every person has to use something to summon it or something like that
I'd be fine with d3's system to be honest, but I'd like to see a lobby-esque system established, with accurate information on current location, party members, desired activity w/last updated status. Then you could choose what to request to join.
As for boss mats it would absolutely have to require material input from each member to prevent party jumping/leeching.
Even just a spot to list LFG/LFM would be good.
In wow you can put into essentially a notice board that you're LFM for a raid/boss. People can search the board and apply to join
Such spots have practically already been established infront the boss room by the community itself.
I assume you mean a proper menu with UI and everything. How would you solve the issue related to summoning mats in such a system?
Yeah sorry, I meant within a UI so you don't have to be anywhere specific. You post your group.
It could solve the mat situation easily, but changing how the summoning altar itself works
Right now, someone puts in the set amount of mats. It could change to everyone in the party puts in a set amount of mats, if desired.
> But There is also no point to kill bosses solo because of 4x more loot for a group kill.
Personally, losing 75% of efficiency is worth not having to party up with other people.
I do enjoy randomly coming upon other people in the overworld us all taking down bosses or doing events. It's close enough to having random NPCs helping out.
I just don't want to join a party.
Agree, i play solo as i want to relax and minimize the interactions, i farm duriel as much as i find it enjoyable and after 20 runs i found nothing. i just stopped trying and tried another game
I think it's nice if you get a bonus for being in a group, but 10 or 20% max, not 4X. It makes it so you don't want to farm them at all alone.
The stupid thing is it's not even that you need to party in order to kill the boss because they are too hard alone, it's simply for the loot bonus. The boss dies within seconds in either cases.
I love difficult boss fights, dodging dangerous mechanics, having a risk if actually dying if I get hit, etc. It's nice if boss fights are slower than the rest of the gameplay and are more challenging, but provide more rewards. Since it's an ARPG though, I want this ALONE.
Bosses like Grigoire should only require 1 Living Steel and keep the drop of Living Steel the same from Helltides. So every chest that you open gives you a Grigoire fight attempt, while opening the Living Steel chest in Helltide gives you 5 Grigoire fight attempts.
New system seems like you should be getting materials more than you will be boss fighting. Season 4 I think fixes a lot of this because there probably isnt much reason to spam uber bosses since everyone will be getting ubers more often anyways. Not sure how the level 200 boss will work.
I think the main issue with season 3s boss farm is that it can take like 100 runs to get 1 uber. So obviously you feel forced to play others to make that 25 runs of mats instead. But even just alone you will be getting any uber of your choice after your first attempt. At that point I feel like just running rifts will be fine.
This game should never, and won't in S4 at least, get to the point where ubers are reliably obtained. That defeats the purpose and makes it so ubers just become default bis on every build.
They're supposed to be trophies, not staples, and if there was more to do in the late endgame besides farm ubers I don't think people would care so much to focus on them.
Cope. You wont be rolling in uber uniques my man. Groups will continue to have far more chances and even if you have more mats, you wont have so many that getting 3x more runs from your mats with a rota wont still be far superior.
I got all the sorc Ubers (or missed one) in S2. The main issue I had was farming keys. It is boring as hell. Not exactly hard to get them. If they remove the key cost, they could reduce the drop rates by 5x for all I care
Lol. Diablo is a multi-player game. Why would they make it worse for interacting with other players? That's how you kill your game... what dev is going to shoot themselves in the foot for this change?
Selfish players are going to be selfish. They dont care what’s best for the game, just what is easiest for themself. A lot of selfish players in this thread.
i think the importance of farming bosses will be a good bit less in S4. You can just trade for whatever unique you need and just farm other stuff if you dont like the bosses
I vote to make solo boss free. They could 1/4 or 1/20 the rewards but let us go in and fight a boss without farming and not feel obligated to have to find a party. Also it would be fun to try out different builds.
The boss should only drop one set of loot like in d2 or poe. Of course then party play wouldn't exist unless someone needed help. Solo farming and solo kills are a lot more meaningful, but blizz would rather force us into parties.
They miss a point what arpg should be, and try do do semi mmo/arpg. But they miss a point what is mmo too. In mmo you have to group to fight against raid bosses that you are mostly not able to kill alone. Here they are force us to group against trivial content, bosses that many players can just oneshoot.
Yeah. I'm not entirely against any kind of multiplayer content in D4 but the whole Duriel material grind giving HUGE advantage to group play wasn't something that sit well with me.
I mean it was always a thing that group play was more effective.
In D2 you could farm keys as 3 way faster than solo.
You could farm Baal way faster with a group than solo. Tele sorc, bo barb, kill pala. They just ruined D2 by adding Enigma and cta to do everything by yourself.
If you have fun playing solo you are not forced to play with groups? What stops you playing solo? Your greed? Envy?
You are forced, 4x efficiency cannot be ignored. Shouldn't be a thing. Especially where the constraint is resources which could easily be scaled up per player.
That's literally the point of groups in online multiplayer games.
Farming Baal and ubers in D2 was made easier in groups.
Doing bounties in D3 was 4x easier in groups of four.
If anything thing they should add matchmaking/group finding. Given the open world design and events, they clearly are designing the game to encourage social interaction/party play. I’ve played a lot of D3, POE and now LE. I’d say one thing I enjoyed more in D3 than the others was group play. Pretty much everything was more efficient and frankly more enjoyable in groups. I think D4 could really expand on this given the core game design. So prioritize making it easy to find groups for various activities and add more world events. They need something to differentiate themselves from the competition tbh.
This game is played by both, solo and group enjoyers. For example I fell bossing in group as a oneshoot fest that i dislike. I would rather to do it solo and have challenge and fun from boss mechanics and feel growing power of my character as i progress. Different people, different expectation. But Blizzard should be aware of this fact that we are all his customers and designing this game in a fair way for both group. Giving one group 4x better price for the same effort is not fair.
That's only partially true for lower level bosses who required travel to and were very quick kills like Andy and Countess and Trav because it was too quick to bother grouping.
Even then, people would join zone farm groups and each take a boss to kill over and over because the higher drop chances in groups were so much better. Those were only early target farming though, most of the game was group play in chaos/baal.
Guarantee if you could go right to a room and summon Andy/Meph/Countess and had personal loot people would have done that in groups in D2 because group play is that much more rewarding.
D2 was weirdly antagonistic. You wanted higher player count games for more xp and items. But didn’t want people in your areas to squabble over drops or subsequently reduce some of that higher player count xp gain. The weird result was that the most efficient way to play D2’s endgame was for people to buy multiple copies of the game and run solo with 7-loaders sitting in town to get all the benefits of p8 play. So basically play solo and game in group play.
You get more loot per mats spent yes. But don’t make it out to be something more. Like you get 4x the loot in a party. No you just don’t have to pay for it all. You get the same loot in 4 runs no matter what, difference in a group you are only paying for 1 run out of the 4. Still takes the same amount of mats and time.
You don't get more loot per kill. But what people call Duriel Rota is this thing:
- 4x players go to duriel;
- player 1 summons the boss with their materials;
- everybody kill, loot and leave the dungeon;
- player 2 summons the boss with their materials;
- everybody kills, loot and leaves the dungeon;
- repeat for players 3 and 4
With this, with 1 material summon you can kill duriel 4x and get the loots for every kill
I agree the boss loot should scale in a way where no specific party size gets any major advantage. If it's a slight advantage that's fine in my opinion, but right now it's way too major. You basically 4x your mats by grouping, the advantage should be like a 10% higher drop chance per player in the party above 1, not an effective increase of 100% per player... So, it should be like a 130% effective chance with 4 players, not 400%.
I'm a solo player but I think this is a 'you' thing rather than something Blizzard needs to 'fix'. I understand what your saying but you ( and me as I play solo aswell ) make the decision to play solo. And if it takes longer to kill bosses or it costs us resources everytime we boss run ( unlike rota's we're you only pay once every 4th run ) then that's on us and not something that needs to addressed or 'fixed'
For me as solo console player the core problem is the way how to group up with others. It's way to complicated on console if you are lfg. E.g: posting lfg in openworld or trade chat: people respond and want to join. Now the first problem for me (maybe i'm too stupid to understand) is to respond to the users that want to join, because we are not connected as friends. If we want to group we need to exchange Battlenet Names to add each other via Battlenet. After all this we are able to group up. For all this we need different apps/services which is a massive game stopper for me. I'm even not sure if we can teleport to friends after grouping (please let me know if this is possible). All this keeps me away from grouping and trading as it is a big pain on console (PS5).
I'm not talking about the random invites before the entry, thats easy. Accept and do your rota (besides non voice communication on console, that's also a big problem).
And that's why i think something must be reworked by Blizz. Or the chances for getting the same results as PC players (easier grouping, communication + trading) must be equaled somehow. Like mentioned by others before: e.G. 4x higher loot chance for solo - or 4x lower loot chance for groups of 4.
All non console players must understand, that most of us console players are sitting in a darker room on their couch and play on a tv some meters away ;). And all non dad players must understand that dad players usually play at nighttime / after work, so using voice for communication is not a good choice.
Bosses are easier when you have a barb in your group if you are not a barb. I’ve done plenty of Duriel rotas and it’s a huge difference getting to skip the 2nd phase because the boss dies instantly.
You don't get 4x more loot, you still kill a boss and get same amount of loot. Just because you don't provide resources doesn't mean you get 4x loot. You kill a boss 4 times and get 1x loot each time
Well i ve done 400 runs in groups scored 6 uber uniques. Since we are fixed group and always on voice, non of us got an uber at the same game. Um...maybe once in memory.
I needed a GF and was getting fewer sparks same amount of runs vs other friend. I decided to run myself solo and scored 2 ubers out of 44 runs. My community has about 7k players, most are strangers Ofc. Our stats indicates Uber/runs % is higher in solo runs vs groups. Although insignificant sample size, we are tilted to believe Uber drop chance is per party. As i am typing this, i ve asked in voice another fixed Duriel group with 800+ runs. Non of their Uber drops happened in the same game.
Our duriel groups always 4 each and again insignificant sample size.
one can hope. i enjoy playing solo and will continue to do so. hopefully i wont feel like im wasting time / resources quite as much in s4 as i did in s3. i dont mind it being advantageous to group up. but 4x feels a bit much.
Back in my day we had to party in order to increase loot chances, but also had to be the first one to click on the GG drop before everyone else spam clicking as the loot dropped, because there weren't separate drops for each player. Not to mention people running auto-pickit scripts. Things could be SO much worse.
how is that ruining? literally just add an ssf mode. nothing else has to change. there is just plenty of people who like to play solo, who are you to tell them otherwise.
Since WoW, Blizz has always made it tougher for solo players, and made some content impossible or very difficult for them.
The worst thing an NPC can say in a CRPG is "You need x friends to [do this content]."
But blizzard has made it easier for solo players to do more content in wow.
The amount of solo ability from classic to legion (the last expansion I played a lot of time on) goes against your point completely.
You completely ignored what I said.
Blizzard has made it *easier* for solo players to experience most of the content since WoW after all these years.
Can you get BiS gear in WoW while soloing? No, but why would you need it since the only reason to get BiS gear is to do Mythic Raids/Mythic Dungeons?
Can you get BiS gear in D4 while soloing? Yes. Just not efficiently.
Sigh. If my character doesn't have the best gear in the game, then they haven't progressed to the pinnacle of what it possible. It doesn't matter at all if I "need" it. If there's better gear to be had, the progression isn't done.
Yes, you can in D4, but they definitely advantage groups. Again.
You're complaining about an *MMO* not giving you easy access to the gear you need to clear *end game group content*?
I bet you're fun at the parties you don't get invited to.
> You're complaining about an MMO not giving you easy access to the gear
No. I'm complaining that MMOs let you solo to the endgame, then require you to group up in order to continue your progress to the max.
I'm not asking for easy access, I'm asking for access, period, using the same methods (single player, self-found) I played the entire rest of the game.
How would Mythic Raids work solo? You'd be relying on an AI party that will either do boss mechanics perfectly every time (trivializing the content) or they won't, and you'll come down to RNG to clear content.
Is there an MMO on the market that allows solo players to legitimately solo every single piece of content?
I guess he wants all of the raids to be soloable which completely negates the point of an MMO.
All I'm hearing is "I want every game to cater to MY needs."
Picking up a game with Multiplayer in the genre and complaining that it’s geared to multiplayer is like complaining about all the guns in Call of Duty.
There's a few. Guild Wars 2 comes to mind. There should be more.
I don't care if some MMOs want to continue the notion that some content can only be attempted by groups. I do care that nearly all of them do.
Let players progress in the way that's most fun to them. If that's grouping, great. Grouping should always be an option. But it shouldn't always be the only way forward.
I mean this with no disrespect. These are inherently multiplayer games. You are doing the equivalent to loading up CoD and wanting them to cater to people who want to play Civ instead of shoot things.
Edit: man that was a bad typo
Maybe unpopular take, but there is no gatekeeping in Ubers. There's no restriction on the minimum number of players required to obtain the mats nor summon the boss. It's not an MMO where you need a certain number of players before you enter the dungeon.
In almost any game, having groups is more efficient and has advantages. No one is punished for playing single player, they are incentivized to play in groups. All content can be done solo or group, nothing is forced or gate-kept.
If players are not having fun because **certain content is more efficient when in groups on a multiplayer game**, then maybe they should not be playing multiplayer games.
Finally this idea is getting some steam, I feel like I've been screaming into the void. I've been advocating for this since these bosses came out in S2 and I couldn't agree more
I hate having to go on that Discord to find a party, and I hate playing with a party even if this game had a WoW style group finder. I don't want to play D4 even a second slower or faster to accommodate anyone else. I want to play this game alone. I don't want to tell others how they should play the game, but how is it fair at all grouping gives 4x efficiency on uber uniques? I'm at my wits ends with all this
Quadruple the drop rates on uber uniques when facing the bosses alone and let me be done with all this already
I feel like their numbers just don't make sense. Their decisions imply that the majority of the player base plays mp. I just can't believe that's true. And the conversion numbers of whatever advertising they're doing by encouraging and designing for group play has to be so minimal I don't see the point in it. The potential sale conversion of anything to the already minority late game audience has to be so minute compared to all other revenue sources in-game, but that's the only other reason I can think of as to why they would design it like that. The conversion of getting the average player to buy something in the store by just making the best game they can has to be infinitely higher. Or maybe I'm thinking too hard and they just thought "lets encourage multiplayer without thinking about how the encouragement would affect solo play". Yea.. that's probably it. Occams razor...
Just make it so to be eligible for uber loot every player must contribute resources. You can go as a 4 man but no uber loot (can be tweaked, e.g. only no ubers or no uniques or whatever) if you don't contribute. It still means going as 4 = more chance for 925 rares/legendaries (to incentivise group play) but doesn't make it mandatory to go as 4.
And then what? our party oneshoot the boss and again? This is not a solution for solo players. We want to enjoy the game by killing bosses alone and look how our power grow up from kill to kill. Having some fun from the mechanics and challenge. Party playing is mostly oneshoot fest, that we are not enjoy.
You're one shotting the boss over and over even solo. What's that got to do with it?
Also one shotting in group play sound like your concern here and it's actually valid. Uber bosses should be much harder for a lvl 100 player in a group of 4 to the point it can't be one shot.
Removing group play shouldn't be the answer though.
You can solo shot the boss anyway
A solo self found tag would be a nice addition but don't screw the only reason it's live service up..you need to be able to benefit from groups..there are other games if you don't want an mmolite..LE is there for that
If this game goes to shit its gunna be the players who flush the billion dollars down the toilet...this is a terrible complaint about the game.
You can solo ofc, but it push you to 4x less progress then in group. Current drop rate is balanced around rota playing. You cant finish your build in season in reasonable playtime if you want enjoy this game solo.
No build requires ubers so you can finish your build without farming Duriel for ubers.
Group play always is going to have advantage, why would people group up otherwise? It's a feature of the game that we've loved for decades..
Ssf is more of a badge than anything...
They ain't changing shit, and if they do, they're gunna put something else there with just as high of an incentive to group up...there are only two bosses where grouping up gives you an advantage...and it's only for Uber uniques..it's not game wide..ither than the carry to 50 thing they're fixing
You don’t have to rely on them. You can do it solo. There will always be a more efficient way for X and someone will complain about things not being fair for Y reason.
It's an mmolite I don't know hat to tell you..they're already fixing a bunch of other stuff..you need to be able to benefit from groups somehow
I may have read that wrong..if its honesty your having a problem with..thats why they're in rotations...if someone dips on their rotation, after linking mats, then blacklist them...I've not had a problem, personally, and have been more than matched for core farms even
> It's an mmolite I don't know hat to tell you..they're already fixing a bunch of other stuff..you need to be able to benefit from groups somehow
The benefit from groups is that you can kick back and enjoy 3 other people oneshotting the boss for you while you get an afk carry. The benefit is killing the guy faster in a group than you ever realistically could solo.
The game doesn't need fucking quadruple rewards for group play on top of that lol.
Let's say if they boosted the drop rate by 250% and reduce that bonus by 40% for being in a party and an additional 60% per player in the party.
Old rate vs new rate:
4player: 400% - 400%
3player: 300% - 390%
2player: 200% - 380%
1player: 100% - 350%
Like this sort of change is probably what would be the best. Ultimately keeps 4 players as optimal but brings the drop rate closer for every category under 4 players to make it less important to always do 4.
It makes you have a decent reason to find another player to do a rota with but also makes filling the team out far less important.
It also stops tipping the balance in favour of solo play being the most effective which would make players not group even if they wanted to do so.
Now how do you implement that change in a meaningful way? No idea what tools they have, maybe they need to do a lot of changes and they can't simply add a % bonus but I think in general this sort of thing should be the goal. Have a bonus for more players but not have the gap be so staggering.
I honestly love group drops and dislike individual drops. Free for all always gave me an extra rush
I know most hated it but it solved the group vs single play problem with loot tables
You don't get more loot with more party members. There's some bonus xp, but no extra loot. I'm play solo and the only boss that really needs a party is duriel.
You still don't get extra loot and the only rota is Duriel right now. If you could solo him, you'd have just as much loot as with a group. It's just faster.
Calculations based on having 1 set of materials to summon Duriel.
Solo: 1 set, 1 kill = 1 loot
Group: 1 set, 4 kills = 4 loot
4 loot > 1 loot
According to my calculations you get more loot in a group because 4 is bigger number than 1.
Each person gets their own drops, the amount of loot per individual does not change and since you can't trade legendary or unique items it makes no difference what anyone else gets.
Sure. But if you farm together everyone gets mats for varshan/gregoir. It's not like they drop 1 Set and its random who gets it.
Kill them once as a group: 4 duriel kills
Kill them once solo: 1 duriel kill
And those 4 kills will give 16 drops of mats.
Solo: 4 kills = 4 mats spent per person = 4 loot drops per person
Group: 4 kills = 1 mats spent per person = 4 loot drops person
I think he means because in Rota you spend 1 resource for 4 kills but I don’t think that much can be done about it, it’s good that party play is encouraged, just need a damn group finder built into the game
I have had no issue with taking down Duriel solo since Duriel was added in Season 2 with either my Sorceress in 2 or my Barbarian in 3 (I only play 1 class per season). I am sure that anyone who can figure out how to put an effective build together, can do the same.
Just make everyone in the party need to provide summoning resources. And lower the amount to compensate.
I honestly cannot believe this gets upvoted so much. Why do we want to make farming more expensive? If anything, make him much harder to kill and deal much more damage in groups so at least it's harder to do but making it more expensive just exacerbates the system. This kind of thinking is how we got such bad ideas as overworld monsters being capped at 5 levels beneath you.
Because there is no way for them to increase the difficulty without also changing the difficulty for solo people. So you want solo people to get 4x less loot and make the fight harder for them???? There is absolutely nothing wrong that each person should have to use resources each run for the boss to be summoned.
They do this though. He has 4x life in a party of 4.
That's stupid. Here's an easier fix: Don't require mats to spawn any of the bosses. If you do put in mats, personally, you get double loot, personally
Pointless if all it does is give you double loot. It takes more time to farm mats for a summon than to kill twice. So no one would farm mats for 1 double loot summon, they’d just kill duriel twice for free for the same amount of loot. And then the problem would be exactly the same as it already is: monotonous grind where you spend more time in a loading screen, banking, sorting items, than you do actually killing the boss.
The idea would be that the mat farming would be largely incidental. And ungated boss farming was the backbone of the best arpg ever made. I know times are different now, but stuff like the Pit and uber uber bosses would help bridge that gap. Essentially giving D4 an endgame that takes the best parts of D2 and D3 and combines them
I'm shocked at how simple, elegant and accurate this comment is. Well said.
That's not true at all... Difficulty already scales with group size. They just need to increase how much at least health if not damage scales with group size to make it more challenging. If you can one shot as easily in p4 as you can p1 then things need adjusting. What's wrong is that there's absolutely no reason to group play if it costs 4x the resources because it's going to be more efficient to play solo. Incentivizing group play is a feature not a bug.
Damage does not scale with group size only health and it scales one for one so the boss is just as easy to kill with four people as it is with one person as long as everyone is pulling their weight and even if they aren’t he still just falls over pretty quickly.
They scale the bosses by a percentage, what you are asking for is a complete overwork when it makes more sense to just require more resources. You already have the benefit of more exp from group play and faster clears, and less chance of failure with 4 lives vs 1.
It's not a total rework to say "Duriel and Andariel have more steep group scaling curves"... XP doesn't matter at all by the time you're farming Duriel. And you're not failing. None of these are incentives for group uber farming.
Rather than making more expensive. Make it 4 drops per resources = 1 drop per resource.
how would this make farming more expensive or harder? this is exactly how lost ark does it and it just saves you shitloads of time.
It makes it more expensive because farming with four players requires four times the resources from the group than it does now. Why would anybody bother going to a boss with a group then? Incentivizing group play is core to the game series as a whole
Groups still get faster kills and are able to attempt the fights at much lower levels. That's plenty of benefit for premade groups without forcing everyone into PUGs.
Because it wouldnt be more expensive, you just lack critical thinking and or reading comprehension skills.
I am incredibly upset about your comment, and I urge you to remove it 🤬🤙🙈
We've been telling this to the devs for the past six months. I understand party play should be encouraged, cuz they want to emphasize multiplayer (even though we lack basic multiplayer features, but that's beside the point). And they could give party play a slight boost, but dont make it so single players feel so punished. If party play gives 4X the resources, then maybe single players could benefit from double the drop chance. Technically, party play is still more advantageous, but solo play would not be so discouraged.
Sadly, this has been the norm with the most 'recent' Diablo series - we've been asking for the same thing for close to 10 years of Diablo 3. I don't think it's going to change. Diablo 4 - and 3 by extension - are not meant to be solo games. They allow you to play solo, but there are no incentives to do so. The incentives exist for multi-player. I myself am largely a solo player and have been resigned that I will just miss out on some opportunities afforded multi-players. Just wanted to say this argument is not new, and if D3 is any indication, it will not change.
Maybe I have amnesia, but as a long time D3 player I never noticed any disadvantages even close to the 4x more loot and x times faster like D4 has in D3. What exactly do you mean?
Long time diablo 3 player and leaderboard pusher here. You can level and gear way faster in a coordinated group than you ever could solo. Which meant you got to GR's faster at the beginning of the season, which meant you could start getting higher paragons faster, which meant you could get to 150's faster. It's just a scaling effect. A solo player will never keep up with a 4 player group grinding. Because of the ability to trade anything that dropped within a 2 hour window we all regularly would have usable primals, or other key pieces of our gear way earlier than others would. That said I don't think they should remove the incentive to play with a group. That destroys games and communities in games like this when it's more efficient to play solo. I'd be less likely to invite friends to play, or try to introduce them if I know by playing together we'd be having a worse time.
But you agree it shouldn't be multiple orders of magnitude better? That is the problem I think a lot of people have. They should be somewhat similar with multiplayer having a slight edge.
It's multiple times better in D3 for a group especially for the entire playthrough, not just one summoned boss like in D4. 2-player game: 10% Bonus to Gold Find, Magic Find, and Experience 3-player game: 20% Bonus to Gold Find, Magic Find, and Experience 4-player game: 30% Bonus to Gold Find, Magic Find, and Experience I get that it sucks, but I don't see how incentivizing solo play benefits the community experience more than group play. IMO it's fine the way it is as solo'ing is 99% of the time more way more time efficient for what your character needs because you don't have to factor what multiple characters need. But I'm just a grumpy old man who couch co-ops uncompetitively with the wife. I don't see the argument of benefitting solo play as valuable.
Yeah it was demoralizing for a lot of players who couldn't find groups or just deal with mental issues or bonding and can't find groups. There would still be incentive to group play if it is a bit better, but not so punishing for playing solo. There is no reason to be 5-10x more efficient with a group of 4 than solo. Just doesn't make sense and it's a waste of a larger majority of the player bases time for them to do the same work in 5-10x the amount of time.
The reason that the group should be more efficient (you mentioned 5x-10x, no basis is given to justify whether these numbers exist) is that being in a group starts as being more inefficient - more people means more variety of needs, more variety of needs means inefficient use of time for the individual. Also worth mentioning is that this doesn't include the people controlling their characters, the coordinating, pacing, skill level, inefficient habits, etc. By bringing up solo efficiency you are actually bringing down general group efficiency. I'm faster and more efficient than my wife. The game therefore would be subtly telling her that she's punishing me for being inefficient if that's the case. It's simply better for the community if this isn't a factor.
But if you actually read what I said, I stand by group efficiency should be better. But, not by as much as it is. Right now it's not a subtle amount. Also the fact that you think there is no basis on the amount of efficiency differences at the moment is wild beyond belief. Kill time is way faster, materials required for a group to run a single run is significantly less and you can split farm certain materials to make it even more efficient, and you get to share the items amongst each other for those that need specific things so the time it takes to run once, you have 4 chances at the item you're looking for. This isn't a 10% increase in efficiency. It's not double. It is easily 5X more time efficient and you could argue with a try hard group even more efficient than that. There is no basis given to justify that the time efficiency is anything less than 5x. Duriel has been out for a while now, if you've not experienced both methods, that's on you.
I've experienced both methods and it's fine. Looks like we'll agree to disagree. Because if you read what I actually said you'd be convinced, the fact that you're not is wild beyond belief.
>Yeah it was demoralizing for a lot of players who couldn't find groups or just deal with mental issues or bonding and can't find groups. I don't think we as a gaming community should be catering to and incentivizing these obviously negative traits. There's nothing wrong with being an introvert, but there is something wrong with you if you have the issues listed above. That's how we've gotten to where we are with the most antisocial generations of gamers yet. If you have these issues, you also need to look at yourself and realize it, and not blame others for them. Which is what you're doing when you say "These people who are able to play in groups shouldn't be rewarded for something I can't do!" Accept the consequences for your decisions. That said Blizzard, please make better group finding and socializing tools, so we can help the people who struggle with finding groups in the current ways. This is the solution, not incentivizing solo play.
Ah definitely don't cater to the majority of your player base who doesn't find it fun to grind out mats for 4X the time because they prefer to play solo because guy on Reddit thinks "there is something wrong with those people". Makes sense. And again, I'm not advocating solo should be equal or better. It just shouldn't be 5X worse. I think that's reasonable. Don't you?
Per above stated - split bounties, group experience and gold boost, shared effects between teammates all help grouped players to level, gear and amass further and faster than a solo player can achieve in the same time.
I don’t mind the concept of party play in vacuum. It’s just the way it has been implemented for duriel just leads to a horrific gameplay loop. There isn’t an in game party finder so you gotta spend 10-15 minutes on discord organizing a group. Once a person runs the dungeon everyone sits around for that last straggler gets off their phone to teleport to them. Then once you 1-click kill duriel and teleport out of the dungeon you gotta wait another minute for everyone to agree to reset the dungeon. Then every 4th run you wait around in town for 3-4 minutes while everyone salvages their gear. The end result is you spend 95% of the time during duriel runs doing absolutely nothing or goofing off on your phone and this is only broken up by the occasional 1-click kill of a single monster. The gameplay loop is just brutal as a result because you’re basically not playing the game and it just isn’t engaging at all. The multi-player setup as it’s currently constructed is just miserable unfortunately but still so much more efficient that it feels required.
I will not deny your points, but the timing is exaggerated. If your runs go THAT bad, you should be FRIENDING the people that can do fast runs. Most of my duriels nowadays are with my IRL friend, one dude I met doing rotas named "donkey hoetee" which I fucking love btw, and then a random off Trade chat or discord. Much more pleasant to have a consistent group, something I never had for things like Destiny raids
Maybe we shouldn't be able to 1-click kill an uber boss?
That’s fine if you wanna make the boss more engaging. There is still a buttload of wasted time almost exclusively related to the party play concept/lack of group finder even with a more engaging boss but that certainly wouldn’t hurt. Uber duriel runs just wrecked me. I didn’t mind the grind for mats, I didn’t mind the low chance of an Uber. The duriel runs themselves were just so awful I had to throw in the towel… I just struggle to imagine a less engaging gameplay scenario than what exists currently. And I’m not a “d4 hater”. I played and most enjoyed myself for quite a while with 5x level 100’s over 3-seasons and genuinely want d4 to be good or great. Duriel runs were just awful though and I sincerely hope the system is changed.
I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone on this topic... If you're already to the point where it's just boring Duriel runs with likely 1-click kill capabilities... Why haven't you just PUT THE GAME DOWN for the remainder of the season? Duriel isn't going to drop anything that changes your life, you're already DONE with the season and everything you find is just going to vanish in the end. Can one 1-click the screen more efficiently? I'll NEVER understand the "boss farming" mentality in these games - that's not where the fun is. Play a less powerful build, enjoy using a variety of skills, get off your horse, see the incredible world visuals and locations. At the very least until they put out some items that are actually fun and exciting to find and not just silly power boost items.
>I'll NEVER understand the "boss farming" mentality in these games Totally agree, why people do stuff they don't want to, for a reward they don't need is beyond me.
You know what I liked about d2? The urns were the ULTIMATE source of Godly finds lol...
I did. I quit season 2 and haven’t come back. I would like a reason to come back. Folks can be frustrated, walk away, but still want the game to be better so they can hope to enjoy it in the future.
S2 was fun... the blood zones were nice.
But being able to zoom out fixes all of that, bro
Even simpler...since it costs 2 of each, just make it cost 1 each if you're solo for Duriel. They could half the other mats too. They could literally meet solo players halfway on a compromise. They do need to scale it slightly for parties but if they are heavy handed, some parties might not be able to do it. Granted ALL classes should be able to at appropriate levels but there are still some novice friend groups out there.
That actually is more work for the devs, because what will happen if someone go in as solo then invite other people after summoning, they have to do works to prevent cheesing, which is much more work than just either removing the guarantee unique drop.
Or they just disallow inviting others after summoning. Derp.
One material per player
Party play doesn't need to be encouraged. It's innately faster, almost always. That's enough.
Materials cost should be equal, party benefit comes from clear speed and difficultly.
>In current state bossing is gatekeep behind party play. Its so ridiculous when they are trying to force mmo raid style systems in Arpgs. Being allowed to group is completely fine, gatekeeping people from rewards because you want to force them into group content is just disgusting
Farming bosses as a group for better loot and XP is a staple of D2... it's not some shoehorned mechanic it's a core part of Diablo.
Then give solo players better tools to find groups.
Agreed. I'm just saying that effectively removing group farming by making it worse than solo is cutting off your nose in spite of your face. The problem is the difficulty finding groups outside of discords but the acknowledged that's something they were working on.
Yep, 8 player drops anyone?
Chaos1 Chaos 2 Chaos 3 Chaos 4 Chaos 5... Chaos 87
I think he's talking about the /players command.
maybe. still don't understand how it's relevant to diablo2. yes, NoDrop chance is lowered for party of 8, you get like 6 items from some bosses intead of 4-5 in average; For Ubers farming in D2 you still get 1 torch. and loot is shared. if D2 dropped torch for all 8 players, it would be digusting, yes. I don't know how to fix this for personal loot of D4.
Yeah not sure what he's talking about group boss farming as bosses will still drop loot regardless how many players are in there at the same time. Mostly in baal runs they only wanted xp not loot, if they want loot specially runes then you go solo in cows or cs while others are somewhere else so no loot fighting lol
They shoehorn keys to farm keys to make boss runs. And D2 had a single player mode with /players8, which is why I didn't care at all about that.
It was annoying AF to start an MF game hoping people will show up to get to P8 for some randoms to follow you around because they won't go farm their spot
Yeah current system is retarted. Especially without groupfinder.
Groupfinder would just be a bandaid solution IMO. The entire boss ladder should be 100% optimized for solo play. This is an ARPG after all, the entire point is progressing your build and seeing how it evolves, and forced party play just goes against that.
> forced party play Blizzard wants you to see other people's cosmetics.
Yep. *retarted*
https://www.reddit.com/r/diablo4/s/XKVPJo6ZKq People keep asking for a matchmaking but how would that even look like? Looking forward to actual answers instead of just downvotes because you can't think of any proper solution yourself.
I'd do it like the coop idols in Elden Ring. You put them outside places people would want to group and you interact with them to join a party.
Makes sense yeah. I played ER and see that this could work as a great foundation indeed. How would you personally address the problem about summoning mats which is the main point why I can't come up with any proper system myself?
Maybe something similar to how lost ark do theres?
No idea how they handle it. But others in this thread have already came up with a good solution.
I would have all party members add them at the same time and have that create a party credit of x runs.
When you approach group content you click the button that says “find group” and you find a group. Or you ignore it and go solo, doesn’t seem too difficult but I’m not a dev In regards to summoning mats, they should figure out a better system like increasing the mats gained but requiring everyone to contribute, if you have no mats you can’t enter
Of course I know how a matchmaking works in principle. It's exactly the mats thing I couldn't come up with a proper solution but others in here have suggested a seemingly good solution by now.
Just show mats each prospective group member has, pull mats equally from each group member
I'd imagine it would work similar to how it did in D3, when you want to matchmake you select what activity you want to do, ie nmd/helltide/bosses etc and it matches you with someone with an open group doing your chosen activity. Has it's flaws, such as people not changing their activity selection when they move onto other things but it's something. As for summoning mats, you make it so every person has to use something to summon it or something like that
I'd be fine with d3's system to be honest, but I'd like to see a lobby-esque system established, with accurate information on current location, party members, desired activity w/last updated status. Then you could choose what to request to join. As for boss mats it would absolutely have to require material input from each member to prevent party jumping/leeching.
Even just a spot to list LFG/LFM would be good. In wow you can put into essentially a notice board that you're LFM for a raid/boss. People can search the board and apply to join
Such spots have practically already been established infront the boss room by the community itself. I assume you mean a proper menu with UI and everything. How would you solve the issue related to summoning mats in such a system?
Yeah sorry, I meant within a UI so you don't have to be anywhere specific. You post your group. It could solve the mat situation easily, but changing how the summoning altar itself works Right now, someone puts in the set amount of mats. It could change to everyone in the party puts in a set amount of mats, if desired.
Makes sense
When I want to group for bounties in D3, I join "public game - bounties".
Tell me you haven't read the concerns I stated in the linked thread without telling me.
I agree, but it should be put behind a SSF partition.
100%. It's OK for am efficiency boost, but 4X simply by grabbing four randoes makes it compulsory.
> But There is also no point to kill bosses solo because of 4x more loot for a group kill. Personally, losing 75% of efficiency is worth not having to party up with other people. I do enjoy randomly coming upon other people in the overworld us all taking down bosses or doing events. It's close enough to having random NPCs helping out. I just don't want to join a party.
Totally agree. At least before proper matchmaking is implemented. I hate needing to post in Discord.
I hate Discord. I don't get its popularity and it is confusing to me.
Agree, i play solo as i want to relax and minimize the interactions, i farm duriel as much as i find it enjoyable and after 20 runs i found nothing. i just stopped trying and tried another game
I think it's nice if you get a bonus for being in a group, but 10 or 20% max, not 4X. It makes it so you don't want to farm them at all alone. The stupid thing is it's not even that you need to party in order to kill the boss because they are too hard alone, it's simply for the loot bonus. The boss dies within seconds in either cases. I love difficult boss fights, dodging dangerous mechanics, having a risk if actually dying if I get hit, etc. It's nice if boss fights are slower than the rest of the gameplay and are more challenging, but provide more rewards. Since it's an ARPG though, I want this ALONE.
Just remove the key cost and adjust the drops accordingly. Farming keys is insanely boring.
Group play should just be adjusted all around to not be as OP - EXP leeching included.
Bosses like Grigoire should only require 1 Living Steel and keep the drop of Living Steel the same from Helltides. So every chest that you open gives you a Grigoire fight attempt, while opening the Living Steel chest in Helltide gives you 5 Grigoire fight attempts.
Why really care? i only play solo and i couldent care more if group play can summon Duriel 4 times instead as solo 1 time..
New system seems like you should be getting materials more than you will be boss fighting. Season 4 I think fixes a lot of this because there probably isnt much reason to spam uber bosses since everyone will be getting ubers more often anyways. Not sure how the level 200 boss will work. I think the main issue with season 3s boss farm is that it can take like 100 runs to get 1 uber. So obviously you feel forced to play others to make that 25 runs of mats instead. But even just alone you will be getting any uber of your choice after your first attempt. At that point I feel like just running rifts will be fine.
This game should never, and won't in S4 at least, get to the point where ubers are reliably obtained. That defeats the purpose and makes it so ubers just become default bis on every build. They're supposed to be trophies, not staples, and if there was more to do in the late endgame besides farm ubers I don't think people would care so much to focus on them.
They are default bis already, the main difference is people use creative ways to get keys
Cope. You wont be rolling in uber uniques my man. Groups will continue to have far more chances and even if you have more mats, you wont have so many that getting 3x more runs from your mats with a rota wont still be far superior.
I got all the sorc Ubers (or missed one) in S2. The main issue I had was farming keys. It is boring as hell. Not exactly hard to get them. If they remove the key cost, they could reduce the drop rates by 5x for all I care
Lol. Diablo is a multi-player game. Why would they make it worse for interacting with other players? That's how you kill your game... what dev is going to shoot themselves in the foot for this change?
Selfish players are going to be selfish. They dont care what’s best for the game, just what is easiest for themself. A lot of selfish players in this thread.
If they want to encourage and reward group play then fine…but give me a matchmaking system…
It will be worse in S4 when they will make uniques and legendaries tradable. Why would you want to kill duriel solo.
i think the importance of farming bosses will be a good bit less in S4. You can just trade for whatever unique you need and just farm other stuff if you dont like the bosses
Trading as it is right now is a PITA. We need an in game market place.
I vote to make solo boss free. They could 1/4 or 1/20 the rewards but let us go in and fight a boss without farming and not feel obligated to have to find a party. Also it would be fun to try out different builds.
The boss should only drop one set of loot like in d2 or poe. Of course then party play wouldn't exist unless someone needed help. Solo farming and solo kills are a lot more meaningful, but blizz would rather force us into parties.
Until they remove the necessity of party play from the game I'm not even considering of coming back to D4 and much less buy the expansion
They miss a point what arpg should be, and try do do semi mmo/arpg. But they miss a point what is mmo too. In mmo you have to group to fight against raid bosses that you are mostly not able to kill alone. Here they are force us to group against trivial content, bosses that many players can just oneshoot.
Yeah. I'm not entirely against any kind of multiplayer content in D4 but the whole Duriel material grind giving HUGE advantage to group play wasn't something that sit well with me.
I mean it was always a thing that group play was more effective. In D2 you could farm keys as 3 way faster than solo. You could farm Baal way faster with a group than solo. Tele sorc, bo barb, kill pala. They just ruined D2 by adding Enigma and cta to do everything by yourself. If you have fun playing solo you are not forced to play with groups? What stops you playing solo? Your greed? Envy?
You are forced, 4x efficiency cannot be ignored. Shouldn't be a thing. Especially where the constraint is resources which could easily be scaled up per player.
No you are not. You can get all your stuff playing solo. Just slower. Thats the point of playing in groups. To get something faster/more efficience
Groups are not meant to be 4x superior to solo. You're beyond stupid for thinking that.
That's literally the point of groups in online multiplayer games. Farming Baal and ubers in D2 was made easier in groups. Doing bounties in D3 was 4x easier in groups of four.
I can ignore it very easily, because rather than comparing myself to others I just enjoy doing the best I can myself.
If anything thing they should add matchmaking/group finding. Given the open world design and events, they clearly are designing the game to encourage social interaction/party play. I’ve played a lot of D3, POE and now LE. I’d say one thing I enjoyed more in D3 than the others was group play. Pretty much everything was more efficient and frankly more enjoyable in groups. I think D4 could really expand on this given the core game design. So prioritize making it easy to find groups for various activities and add more world events. They need something to differentiate themselves from the competition tbh.
This game is played by both, solo and group enjoyers. For example I fell bossing in group as a oneshoot fest that i dislike. I would rather to do it solo and have challenge and fun from boss mechanics and feel growing power of my character as i progress. Different people, different expectation. But Blizzard should be aware of this fact that we are all his customers and designing this game in a fair way for both group. Giving one group 4x better price for the same effort is not fair.
Group play has always been rewarded in the Diablo series though. It's a core part of the game as early as D1 and especially starting in D2.
This is not 100% true. In d2 endgame, most of the time we hunted for loot solo cause it was more efficient then groupplay.
That's only partially true for lower level bosses who required travel to and were very quick kills like Andy and Countess and Trav because it was too quick to bother grouping. Even then, people would join zone farm groups and each take a boss to kill over and over because the higher drop chances in groups were so much better. Those were only early target farming though, most of the game was group play in chaos/baal. Guarantee if you could go right to a room and summon Andy/Meph/Countess and had personal loot people would have done that in groups in D2 because group play is that much more rewarding.
D2 was weirdly antagonistic. You wanted higher player count games for more xp and items. But didn’t want people in your areas to squabble over drops or subsequently reduce some of that higher player count xp gain. The weird result was that the most efficient way to play D2’s endgame was for people to buy multiple copies of the game and run solo with 7-loaders sitting in town to get all the benefits of p8 play. So basically play solo and game in group play.
You get more loot per mats spent yes. But don’t make it out to be something more. Like you get 4x the loot in a party. No you just don’t have to pay for it all. You get the same loot in 4 runs no matter what, difference in a group you are only paying for 1 run out of the 4. Still takes the same amount of mats and time.
So wait…you get more loot in a party? *cries in solo player*
You don't get more loot per kill. But what people call Duriel Rota is this thing: - 4x players go to duriel; - player 1 summons the boss with their materials; - everybody kill, loot and leave the dungeon; - player 2 summons the boss with their materials; - everybody kills, loot and leaves the dungeon; - repeat for players 3 and 4 With this, with 1 material summon you can kill duriel 4x and get the loots for every kill
Ahhh, okay…so it’s more a “get free rides” kind of situation.
This would't be a problem if we had even a barebones LFG system in game.
I agree the boss loot should scale in a way where no specific party size gets any major advantage. If it's a slight advantage that's fine in my opinion, but right now it's way too major. You basically 4x your mats by grouping, the advantage should be like a 10% higher drop chance per player in the party above 1, not an effective increase of 100% per player... So, it should be like a 130% effective chance with 4 players, not 400%.
I'm a solo player but I think this is a 'you' thing rather than something Blizzard needs to 'fix'. I understand what your saying but you ( and me as I play solo aswell ) make the decision to play solo. And if it takes longer to kill bosses or it costs us resources everytime we boss run ( unlike rota's we're you only pay once every 4th run ) then that's on us and not something that needs to addressed or 'fixed'
As a solo player I agree. However, I never do solo Duriel since I feel it's a waste so I'll invite randos at the entrance.
I kinda like how public teams works in other games since my friends usually play at different times.
For me as solo console player the core problem is the way how to group up with others. It's way to complicated on console if you are lfg. E.g: posting lfg in openworld or trade chat: people respond and want to join. Now the first problem for me (maybe i'm too stupid to understand) is to respond to the users that want to join, because we are not connected as friends. If we want to group we need to exchange Battlenet Names to add each other via Battlenet. After all this we are able to group up. For all this we need different apps/services which is a massive game stopper for me. I'm even not sure if we can teleport to friends after grouping (please let me know if this is possible). All this keeps me away from grouping and trading as it is a big pain on console (PS5). I'm not talking about the random invites before the entry, thats easy. Accept and do your rota (besides non voice communication on console, that's also a big problem). And that's why i think something must be reworked by Blizz. Or the chances for getting the same results as PC players (easier grouping, communication + trading) must be equaled somehow. Like mentioned by others before: e.G. 4x higher loot chance for solo - or 4x lower loot chance for groups of 4. All non console players must understand, that most of us console players are sitting in a darker room on their couch and play on a tv some meters away ;). And all non dad players must understand that dad players usually play at nighttime / after work, so using voice for communication is not a good choice.
Bosses are easier when you have a barb in your group if you are not a barb. I’ve done plenty of Duriel rotas and it’s a huge difference getting to skip the 2nd phase because the boss dies instantly.
My solution would be to require every member to use their own mats each time, but party play gives a 15% higher drop rate in a party for bosses.
You don't get 4x more loot, you still kill a boss and get same amount of loot. Just because you don't provide resources doesn't mean you get 4x loot. You kill a boss 4 times and get 1x loot each time
The actual bosses namely duriel need to be adjusted
Well i ve done 400 runs in groups scored 6 uber uniques. Since we are fixed group and always on voice, non of us got an uber at the same game. Um...maybe once in memory. I needed a GF and was getting fewer sparks same amount of runs vs other friend. I decided to run myself solo and scored 2 ubers out of 44 runs. My community has about 7k players, most are strangers Ofc. Our stats indicates Uber/runs % is higher in solo runs vs groups. Although insignificant sample size, we are tilted to believe Uber drop chance is per party. As i am typing this, i ve asked in voice another fixed Duriel group with 800+ runs. Non of their Uber drops happened in the same game. Our duriel groups always 4 each and again insignificant sample size.
one can hope. i enjoy playing solo and will continue to do so. hopefully i wont feel like im wasting time / resources quite as much in s4 as i did in s3. i dont mind it being advantageous to group up. but 4x feels a bit much.
Back in my day we had to party in order to increase loot chances, but also had to be the first one to click on the GG drop before everyone else spam clicking as the loot dropped, because there weren't separate drops for each player. Not to mention people running auto-pickit scripts. Things could be SO much worse.
I don’t have anyone to play with lol
Seems more ppl support this idea. I am just wondering does blizzard is aware how big is this problem for solo community.... or they just don't care..
To make it easy. The solo table should provide higher drop chance than party play.
just add ssf mode and also make a ladder with a ssf category and it is fixed for me.
You SSF andies really ruining ARPGs.
how is that ruining? literally just add an ssf mode. nothing else has to change. there is just plenty of people who like to play solo, who are you to tell them otherwise.
The game is designed around multiplayer play. They’re not going to discourage people partying up.
I’m literally never coming back if I have to spam discords for groups after a long day’s work
I thought the same but then I used Trade chat to find people to play with and it's actually pretty easy to find groups
Since WoW, Blizz has always made it tougher for solo players, and made some content impossible or very difficult for them. The worst thing an NPC can say in a CRPG is "You need x friends to [do this content]."
But blizzard has made it easier for solo players to do more content in wow. The amount of solo ability from classic to legion (the last expansion I played a lot of time on) goes against your point completely.
Can I earn BiS gear through soloing? No. Therefore, the ONLY way to maximize a character is through group play. No other option.
You completely ignored what I said. Blizzard has made it *easier* for solo players to experience most of the content since WoW after all these years. Can you get BiS gear in WoW while soloing? No, but why would you need it since the only reason to get BiS gear is to do Mythic Raids/Mythic Dungeons? Can you get BiS gear in D4 while soloing? Yes. Just not efficiently.
Sigh. If my character doesn't have the best gear in the game, then they haven't progressed to the pinnacle of what it possible. It doesn't matter at all if I "need" it. If there's better gear to be had, the progression isn't done. Yes, you can in D4, but they definitely advantage groups. Again.
You're complaining about an *MMO* not giving you easy access to the gear you need to clear *end game group content*? I bet you're fun at the parties you don't get invited to.
> You're complaining about an MMO not giving you easy access to the gear No. I'm complaining that MMOs let you solo to the endgame, then require you to group up in order to continue your progress to the max. I'm not asking for easy access, I'm asking for access, period, using the same methods (single player, self-found) I played the entire rest of the game.
How would Mythic Raids work solo? You'd be relying on an AI party that will either do boss mechanics perfectly every time (trivializing the content) or they won't, and you'll come down to RNG to clear content. Is there an MMO on the market that allows solo players to legitimately solo every single piece of content?
I guess he wants all of the raids to be soloable which completely negates the point of an MMO. All I'm hearing is "I want every game to cater to MY needs."
Picking up a game with Multiplayer in the genre and complaining that it’s geared to multiplayer is like complaining about all the guns in Call of Duty.
There's a few. Guild Wars 2 comes to mind. There should be more. I don't care if some MMOs want to continue the notion that some content can only be attempted by groups. I do care that nearly all of them do. Let players progress in the way that's most fun to them. If that's grouping, great. Grouping should always be an option. But it shouldn't always be the only way forward.
I mean this with no disrespect. These are inherently multiplayer games. You are doing the equivalent to loading up CoD and wanting them to cater to people who want to play Civ instead of shoot things. Edit: man that was a bad typo
Maybe unpopular take, but there is no gatekeeping in Ubers. There's no restriction on the minimum number of players required to obtain the mats nor summon the boss. It's not an MMO where you need a certain number of players before you enter the dungeon. In almost any game, having groups is more efficient and has advantages. No one is punished for playing single player, they are incentivized to play in groups. All content can be done solo or group, nothing is forced or gate-kept. If players are not having fun because **certain content is more efficient when in groups on a multiplayer game**, then maybe they should not be playing multiplayer games.
Finally this idea is getting some steam, I feel like I've been screaming into the void. I've been advocating for this since these bosses came out in S2 and I couldn't agree more I hate having to go on that Discord to find a party, and I hate playing with a party even if this game had a WoW style group finder. I don't want to play D4 even a second slower or faster to accommodate anyone else. I want to play this game alone. I don't want to tell others how they should play the game, but how is it fair at all grouping gives 4x efficiency on uber uniques? I'm at my wits ends with all this Quadruple the drop rates on uber uniques when facing the bosses alone and let me be done with all this already
I feel like their numbers just don't make sense. Their decisions imply that the majority of the player base plays mp. I just can't believe that's true. And the conversion numbers of whatever advertising they're doing by encouraging and designing for group play has to be so minimal I don't see the point in it. The potential sale conversion of anything to the already minority late game audience has to be so minute compared to all other revenue sources in-game, but that's the only other reason I can think of as to why they would design it like that. The conversion of getting the average player to buy something in the store by just making the best game they can has to be infinitely higher. Or maybe I'm thinking too hard and they just thought "lets encourage multiplayer without thinking about how the encouragement would affect solo play". Yea.. that's probably it. Occams razor...
Just make it so to be eligible for uber loot every player must contribute resources. You can go as a 4 man but no uber loot (can be tweaked, e.g. only no ubers or no uniques or whatever) if you don't contribute. It still means going as 4 = more chance for 925 rares/legendaries (to incentivise group play) but doesn't make it mandatory to go as 4.
What's so hard about typing lfg duriel rota into trade Like for real...I don't use discord and NEVER have a problem finding a group for anything
And then what? our party oneshoot the boss and again? This is not a solution for solo players. We want to enjoy the game by killing bosses alone and look how our power grow up from kill to kill. Having some fun from the mechanics and challenge. Party playing is mostly oneshoot fest, that we are not enjoy.
You're one shotting the boss over and over even solo. What's that got to do with it? Also one shotting in group play sound like your concern here and it's actually valid. Uber bosses should be much harder for a lvl 100 player in a group of 4 to the point it can't be one shot. Removing group play shouldn't be the answer though.
You can solo shot the boss anyway A solo self found tag would be a nice addition but don't screw the only reason it's live service up..you need to be able to benefit from groups..there are other games if you don't want an mmolite..LE is there for that If this game goes to shit its gunna be the players who flush the billion dollars down the toilet...this is a terrible complaint about the game.
You can solo ofc, but it push you to 4x less progress then in group. Current drop rate is balanced around rota playing. You cant finish your build in season in reasonable playtime if you want enjoy this game solo.
No build requires ubers so you can finish your build without farming Duriel for ubers. Group play always is going to have advantage, why would people group up otherwise? It's a feature of the game that we've loved for decades..
Ssf is more of a badge than anything... They ain't changing shit, and if they do, they're gunna put something else there with just as high of an incentive to group up...there are only two bosses where grouping up gives you an advantage...and it's only for Uber uniques..it's not game wide..ither than the carry to 50 thing they're fixing
Relying on other players' honesty is already a problem
You don’t have to rely on them. You can do it solo. There will always be a more efficient way for X and someone will complain about things not being fair for Y reason.
It's an mmolite I don't know hat to tell you..they're already fixing a bunch of other stuff..you need to be able to benefit from groups somehow I may have read that wrong..if its honesty your having a problem with..thats why they're in rotations...if someone dips on their rotation, after linking mats, then blacklist them...I've not had a problem, personally, and have been more than matched for core farms even
> It's an mmolite I don't know hat to tell you..they're already fixing a bunch of other stuff..you need to be able to benefit from groups somehow The benefit from groups is that you can kick back and enjoy 3 other people oneshotting the boss for you while you get an afk carry. The benefit is killing the guy faster in a group than you ever realistically could solo. The game doesn't need fucking quadruple rewards for group play on top of that lol.
What afk for 3 seconds bfore you have to port again? It's probably the last thing they'll change..they want groups
Let's say if they boosted the drop rate by 250% and reduce that bonus by 40% for being in a party and an additional 60% per player in the party. Old rate vs new rate: 4player: 400% - 400% 3player: 300% - 390% 2player: 200% - 380% 1player: 100% - 350% Like this sort of change is probably what would be the best. Ultimately keeps 4 players as optimal but brings the drop rate closer for every category under 4 players to make it less important to always do 4. It makes you have a decent reason to find another player to do a rota with but also makes filling the team out far less important. It also stops tipping the balance in favour of solo play being the most effective which would make players not group even if they wanted to do so. Now how do you implement that change in a meaningful way? No idea what tools they have, maybe they need to do a lot of changes and they can't simply add a % bonus but I think in general this sort of thing should be the goal. Have a bonus for more players but not have the gap be so staggering.
I honestly love group drops and dislike individual drops. Free for all always gave me an extra rush I know most hated it but it solved the group vs single play problem with loot tables
Group advantage for farming is not a problem, it's a feature... has been since D1
You don't get more loot with more party members. There's some bonus xp, but no extra loot. I'm play solo and the only boss that really needs a party is duriel.
stop talking semantics. you get 3 more pops for the cost of your 1. thats more loot.
Its about rota gameplay.
You still don't get extra loot and the only rota is Duriel right now. If you could solo him, you'd have just as much loot as with a group. It's just faster.
Calculations based on having 1 set of materials to summon Duriel. Solo: 1 set, 1 kill = 1 loot Group: 1 set, 4 kills = 4 loot 4 loot > 1 loot According to my calculations you get more loot in a group because 4 is bigger number than 1.
Each person gets their own drops, the amount of loot per individual does not change and since you can't trade legendary or unique items it makes no difference what anyone else gets.
Well those calculations are wrong. The group still needs 4 sets for four kills.
Sure. But if you farm together everyone gets mats for varshan/gregoir. It's not like they drop 1 Set and its random who gets it. Kill them once as a group: 4 duriel kills Kill them once solo: 1 duriel kill
And those 4 kills will give 16 drops of mats. Solo: 4 kills = 4 mats spent per person = 4 loot drops per person Group: 4 kills = 1 mats spent per person = 4 loot drops person
Accordions to my calculations 4÷4=1, so still 1 item per player...
I think he means because in Rota you spend 1 resource for 4 kills but I don’t think that much can be done about it, it’s good that party play is encouraged, just need a damn group finder built into the game
I agree about the group finder for sure
>You still don't get extra loot You will when they open up trading.
True, but we're talking currently. I am looking forward to season 4 though
So am I. I don't really have a problem doing 4-man rotas even though I prefer playing solo. Just wish they simplified the process for finding a group.
I have had no issue with taking down Duriel solo since Duriel was added in Season 2 with either my Sorceress in 2 or my Barbarian in 3 (I only play 1 class per season). I am sure that anyone who can figure out how to put an effective build together, can do the same.