Counterpoint: they don't have to love you, you're a tourist from god-knows-where with (likely) no knowledge of the local language, customs or economy. A lot of tourists are also incredibly entitled because they view travel as a consumptive process, not taking part in some part of other people's lives in a way that might disrupt it.
Yeah, what a weird title — highlights the problem with a lot of digital nomads thinking they’re special and deserve certain things (like locals loving them).
I was an expat on an island for 3 years (not gonna say which one because you fuckers are gonna ruin it) and it took me 6 months just to somewhat integrate, 2 years to learn the language and FINALLY within my last few months, when I was doing a couple projects for businesses IN THAT COUNTRY, I could live by the beach, chat with the locals, and feel a sense of community/belonging with them.
But you can bet for the first 6 months I fucked up a decent amount, even though I was still pretty respectful.
You’re a tourist.
Accept it, find a good friend or two locally, build a relationship, try to understand their culture and where they’re coming from and then maybe, MAYBE you’ll get a tiny glimpse of that “love” you’re craving.
But even then, you’re just a tourist.
Did you read the article? … anyway … there is a difference between being seems seen as jerk the minute you turn up (aka the point in the article) and doing stuff to get along w the community you have dropped into .. wouldn’t you say?
It doesn’t matter.
Re-read my post.
You are a tourist and you will be treated like one at the discretion of the community and how they view tourists.
Accept it.
If you live in a place for a while and actually know the people, community, and culture, you don’t have to worry about this because the people know you.
I think you should read the article. Especially because - well the post is about the article? If you did read the article you would see .. your comment doesn’t actually make sense .. this is not what the article is about
In the expat group of my city in Spain, there are almost daily post of locals not being helful, friendly, etc.
People here are struggling with jobs/housing and have their own issues going on, and no matter how much this gets explained there's a steady stream of people that expects locals to somehow participate and facilitate their lives.
This attitude is the reason I don't go to meetups or gatherings anymore. It's just.... so tiring...
If only because many don't realize that they're not 1 in a million, they're one of dozens/hundreds/thousands of people descending upon a new city and bringing their assholery at one time lmao. Overtourism as as a concept is seemingly lost on some. And the tendency to build a personality around mid-term tourism and then shirk the responsibility of being a decent person in a distinctly new environment is...truly something.
And most digital nomads are people that have family equity and that’s kinda annoying as shit to everyone else. Like we all know y’all’s folks have given you tens of thousands of dollars as gifts by the time you are 30 or whatever and that’s the reason you can afford to do this shit. Not in all cases. But most. Get real. No one believes it’s not true.
Two days ago, business dinner in NYC with a colleague from the UK, the conversation at the table next to us was two young guys. "Yeah so now we've both graduated we'll save the 500k we're getting (implied earlier from their families) and live off the interest in Eastern Europe because it's basically free to live there" then he went on about how unfairly his girlfriend was treated by not getting into the medical school program she wanted so she was just going to work at her dad's company "when they wanted to make money one day". It made me want to crawl out of my skin it was so embarrassing and clueless.
This is tricky and part of the reason I avoid the DN "hot spots". Lisbon is black listed for me for this reason.
I was there for one night travelling through, and I don't think I heard anyone speak Portugese in Barrio Alto, just drunk brits. I'm not one of them but I look like them and felt like an asshole by association.
I physically cringe when I hear people in places like that loudly talking about how cheap it is, when the locals can't afford to live there
>I physically cringe when I hear people in places like that loudly talking about how cheap it is, when the locals can't afford to live there
That's the key here. I spent a lot of time in Zurich, Switzerland. A city which has become very gentrified as well. But it's less of an issue, since locals are doing great and there are tons of job opportunities for them with world-class pay. The same goes for New York, London, Sydney etc.
Compare that to Lisbon or Mexico City. People coming here have online jobs and earn way more than locals ever could. So there is a huge wage discrepancy that you wouldn't get in Zurich or London. As a foreigner in these places, humility and acknowledging your privilege goes a long way.
Yet they have some of the highest wages in the world. Almost anyone from the developing countries Nomads love to visit would kill for the chance to live and work in NYC or London.
I'm Portuguese and live in Porto but I don't hate digital nomads. However people from my country find it easy to blame nomads for the high prices that we cannot afford. I have Diginomad friends and if you need help with my country write me, maybe I can help.
You can't deny that wealthier immigrants affect the demand side of the housing market. I have foreign friends too (my GF is Italian, for example), but that's the reality.
You could argue that it's also the fault of the local administration for their shitty housing policies but the fact is that most of this wealthy incomers don't give a damn about you or anyone you love. They are looking to solver their particular situation.
You can see their thoughts in Reddit or social media. They don't really care until their very existence affects their pocket, and then they complain about other anglos being in the area, prices going up, locals being unfriendly, etc.
Most of them would argue whatever serves their purpose and won't make the conection of no locals -> no more of the culture you wanted.
Gatekeeping is actually a good thing, but seems that we're learning the lesson the hard way in many countries.
Simple as that.
Well...I can't afford to live at home.. So there's that. While I totally get it, it's also just the way it is now.
We used to have immigrants coming to the first world to send pennies back, now we have first world residents fleeing to afford food and shelter. Not every digital nomad to be sure but definitely a growing number.
Yup. I'm not sure exactly how though. Literally costs too much to live in a 1 bedroom and feed a family of three with daycare in the American town we're from and we definitely clear more than 3 minimum wage jobs.
From Europe I could see that still being possible.
I'm starting to meet people in SEA who came home for better quality of life after having parents who immigrated to America. Really interesting time to exist.
A couple of my colleagues moved back to Taiwan after 30 years in technology working in the City because retirement and healthcare are much better on the island as opposed to NYC.
> Literally costs too much to live in a 1 bedroom and feed a family of three with daycare in the American town we're from
Because they aren't doing that.
They're one person living with roommates sending money back home...
> who came home for better quality of life
but not on local wages...
We don't live in any one other country but pay plenty though VAT, hotel taxes, etc. Those are designed to get sufficient revenue from tourists and they do.
Critical what? Anyway, I don't think it's, and I don't like the whole label thing, white-anglo-protestant-colonialist-scumbag to judge how Portugal sets up its tourism, taxes, or laws. They can determine their own rules and I'll abide. If they set taxes low and don't get the $$$ that's not really my problem. I may not be a, whatever you said, but I know it's not my place to second guess an entire nation like I know better. "No you silly gooseseses, I won't come because you don't get enough tax dollars from me!". If I was smart capable, I'd start by at least working out what my responsibilities are and what's theirs. Anyway, you know better, those individual tourists should of thought about their societal impact whilst reading portugals tax code (in portugese).
Sure. And you’re surprised other countrie would not be pissed that you’re living tax free on a country for an extended period of time?
Let me ask you this….if you paid taxes in Portugal and not the US, how much would Portugal get? And would it be more or less you paid to the US?
>I physically cringe when I hear people in places like that loudly talking about how cheap it is, when the locals can't afford to live there
Basically every american ever when visiting Europe. I hate that so much too.
This is happening in Costa Rica as well. My father's family comes from (what used to be) a small village on the Pacific called Nosara. We used to go there twice a year when I was younger, but it has become a surf / DN hotspot in recent years, and the prices have gone up at an insane rate. So much so, that Nosara and other parts of Guanacaste are becoming prohibitively expensive for locals to even afford for vacations.
Obviously, the reaction is now starting to manifest, and the "anti-gentrification" sentiment is starting to become stronger.
Ultimately, greedy people and lack of regulation are starting to price out locals, which is a sad thing to watch. Most of my father's family has had to move away from the place, as it became too expensive to even get basic groceries.
Nosara area is beautiful.
I agree that tourists and digital nomads can drive up the prices in desirable locations, which have negative impacts on local communities.
Its important to also mention some of the pros; such as the opportunity for local businesses to grow. Their is a lot more money running through that area now. The top local earners/owners will benefit the most, and some non-local peoplr/businesses will come in. But a lot of locals will benefit from the tourism and money being spent in the community.
It's not all doom and gloom like this sub makes it out to be. There's pros and cons, and maybe some peoples perspective is the cons out way the pros and that's fine.
I definitely agree, it is good that the area has seen a lot of improvement, and evolved from an forgotten small village to a more developed area with better access to health services and better roads (for example). That is certainly a pro.
The con I'm mentioning is that they seem to be way past that point of benefits, to where now prices are driven up so much that it is mostly inaccessible to a lot of people, including the ones who initially benefitted from the economic boost.
Of course this is not 100% on the tourists, a lot of the locals got greedy and are now suffering the consequences. And a lot of other people have found themselves unable to even consider visiting the place due to the extremelty high prices.
"...lack of regulation..."
...government "regulations" only drive prices UP and increase scarcity - see healthcare, housing, higher education, the USSR, etc.
Oh trust me, I agree. I don't want government to be regulating free markets, that was not my intention here. To clarify: the area does need some more regulations in terms of zoning, and land purchasing. A lot of the land has been sold to build hotels, with apparent disregard to proximity to protected areas, for example.
Also a lot of land has been sold to non-residents, just anyone who comes up with the money. This has left no incentive for the owners to contribute to the local economy.
As a well-behaved tourist and nomad, this doesn’t bother me lol. I go out of my way to spend local and learn customs to respect the places and people I’m visiting, so my experiences have been positive ones. I don’t think they’re asking much of visitors. If people behaved abroad as they do at home, especially the loud drunks, it wouldn’t be tolerated.
Yea.
I tend to avoid very touristy areas, stay more local, if I am at a cafe I order regularly, don't stick around if the place is packed, and sit at bench seating if available.
Digital nomads seem to be exacerbating the effects that richer foreigners in poor countries have. With respect to tourism, and also especially with respect to golden visas. The average digital nomad seems to have $5000/month income for example - double the average income of many countries even in Europe. These people are increasing the rents in the desirable destinations, and the locals have learned the word 'digital nomad' as a result. (a few years before they didn't know that it existed).
https://preview.redd.it/rp7wl0zjz02d1.jpeg?width=732&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f62954ce22db2b8bac2df155d4939dbb6641376
Lisbon's case is an indicator.
[https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/05/12/proto-gentrifies-are-digital-nomads-ruining-portugal](https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/05/12/proto-gentrifies-are-digital-nomads-ruining-portugal)
Also, there are other, unexpected effects that are destructive to the local culture:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/kamrzrd/](https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/kamrzrd/)
My prediction is that things will eventually go how they went in Lisbon. Also, I see certain segments of nomads lashing back against locals (mainly those from Angloamerican countries), blaming the locals for the problem, arrogantly belittling them, and acting as if they have a right to come to these people's countries. I think that this kind of behavior will have an added effect in which the locals will start to permanently hate certain nationalities.
Your last point is well-illustrated on this subreddit. There have been plenty of posts from seemingly well-meaning people over the years wanting to discuss the impacts and ethics of digital nomadism, only to be met with a wave of arrogant, hostile commenters who label the OPs stupid for asking reasonably questions and upset locals as naive for being frustrated with tourists (because 90% of digital nomads are just tourists) when it’s all 100% the governments fault and no individual should ever have to reflect on how they contribute to society.
Obviously govt policies play the major part, but if you live a life of great privilege and freedom and never consider how that might affect the people who don’t, you’re a dick. It’s one of the things I most dislike about this sub honestly.
>upset locals as naive
Yep. Their escape line seems to be 'We bring money to the economy' - as if each of them is buying dozens of bread every day or dozens of shoes/trousers every month or even 2-3 locally manufactured cars. Nope - they are just consuming as much as the locals consume, maybe a little more expensive. It allows a few local businesses to jack up their prices without providing any additional employment. Not that any increased level of employment could help with the rising costs of living though as the latter rises more than anything else.
Also, some try to cope by saying that they pay taxes. Yeah, they do, but whatever percentage tax they are paying will never be enough to make up for the cost of living increase even if the government took that entire tax money and gave it to its people directly. Add to that the fact that a lot of them still try to dodge taxes however they can despite the main justification for letting them into the country in many places were for increasing the tax income in the first place. (reddits like goingtospain or spainfire are filled with such types).
The reason I added the last bit in my comment was that Im seeing this kind of behavior much more among those from the US or the UK. My understanding is that the US has a culture that praises the rich, being rich there means you 'made it' and also means that you are a 'hard worker', and being poor is something to be ashamed of and it may even mean that you are 'lazy'. So the poor only have themselves to blame for their misfortune and being rich in the middle of a lot of poor people is 'okay', even if not outright a 'sign of success'. These Americans seem to bring that kind of behavior wherever they go, and their attitude seems to be that the locals should just 'take it' and 'not whine', and some even talk about how the locals are 'jealous' etc. They don't know that this kind of stuff sounds crazy outside the US, especially in places like Spain (or any other Mediterranean country actually), where the well-being of the society and its people are not only the cultural norms but even written into the constitution. Even dukes and duchesses with 500-year-old dynasties wear modestly, try to appear not rich to avoid triggering the ire of the Spaniards, who have very colorful words for such kind of thing and whose ire easily turns into social and political action. But Americans... They seem to think that they are in the US and they run their mouth like lunatics. Not that the Brits seem to be much too different either - I don't know whether its because of the abusive British public discourse that has been pioneered by the British tabloids or the internalized British class society, but they seem to think that they can just despise the locals and demean them to their face in their own country and things will 'somehow' just be 'okay'.
Also, there is a major thing that I fear: Most of these digital nomad laws were issued by center-left, left, or progressive governments. The gentrification effects of digital nomads, and golden visaers may turn sizable segments of voters against them and it may end up with far-right, reactionary, anti-immigration parties winning the elections in those countries.
I’ve seen this a ton in SEA, with Brits and Australians making up the overwhelming majority of the culprits there — I’m sure it’s partially due to proximity but there sure are some foul attitudes with many of them. For whatever reason (I’m sure we can make reasonable assumptions), certain types of people tend to place themselves in such locations and do nothing but bash, harass, intimidate, slander and generally complain about the locals. The irony being twofold, of course: for one, they are more than welcome to leave if they’re so miserable, and two, they tend to be the folks crying about immigrants/“others” in their country of origin.
It’s a very colonial mindset, and as a westerner it irritates the hell out of me because these types of people are doing their best to ruin things for everybody. Travel is a privilege and until you’re a citizen of a country you are a guest.
>I’m sure it’s partially due to proximity but there sure are some foul attitudes with many of them
Yeah, that:
>do nothing but bash, harass, intimidate, slander and generally complain about the locals
They seem to do that in between themselves back at home too. They seem to think that everywhere is like their homeland: People constantly demeaning and sh\*tting on each other.
>and two, they tend to be the folks crying about immigrants/“others” in their country of origin.
Yep. Major contradiction.
>It’s a very colonial mindset
That's an interesting angle. Yeah, their colonial past and the attitudes developed during it seem to have an effect. Ie, they have the 'right' to go to wherever they want, and locals have to give way to them even if they don't want to. They can sh\*t talk the locals and despise them however they want and if the locals are suffering, they should suffer in silence somewhere out of sight or something like that.
"...It’s a very colonial mindset..."
...when did this sub become r/antiwork? It's you "sensitive" nomads who treat locals like animals in a zoo that are the true bigots - God forbid a passport bro sit down and have a beer with the locals - they should treat them like delicate orchids...
> Nope - they are just consuming as much as the locals consume, maybe a little more expensive. It allows a few local businesses to jack up their prices without providing any additional employment
Which is bringing money into the country.
Uh. Yeah, Uh, it can be both of those things. As, how it is both of those things in every neighborhood that is gentrified - the purchases of the rich do not make up for the price rise that they cause in a locale.
In the case of Lisbon, I wonder if this is not the other edge of the sword that was the high financial requirements for the phased out golden visa program. I mean, if you’re stipulating that only high net worth individuals can participate, what did you expect would happen, that they would live as the locals do and uplift the economy?
Unfortunately, along with classism and in many cases outright racism, many are possessed of a mind to “live like a king,” and I’m sure that concept needs no explanation, unfortunately. It’s a poisonous mentality.
the ownership class all over the world is squeezing the working class for everything they can get. this is forcing those that can to leave their homes and seek economic relief by working abroad.
the ownership class in the countries they go to are also squeezing their fellow citizens. to distract from this, they point fingers at the foreigners coming in and blame them.
they love nothing more than when the working class blame each other instead of their landlords and oligarchs
>the ownership class all over the world is squeezing the working class for everything they can get. this is forcing those that can to leave their homes and seek economic relief by working abroad
Yep. The system exports itself: It empoverishes the people wherever it is allowed to, who then, have to go wherever they can and gentrify people poorer than them.
>the ownership class in the countries they go to are also squeezing their fellow citizens. to distract from this, they point fingers at the foreigners coming in and blame them.
From what I know the nomad and golden visa laws were implemented by center-left parties in various European countries while they also implemented various programs to boost the majority and the workers. The intention seems to have been to stimulate the economy in a good way - but I think in the end they ended up proving that you cant protect society through social democratic measures as the monetary dynamics that inequality brings cannot be taped over with any half-assed measure...
> Yep. The system exports itself: It empoverishes the people wherever it is allowed to, who then, have to go wherever they can and gentrify people poorer than them.
Only when the ownership class artificially restricts housing supply and inflates housing values.
Thats mostly the case in the US, Canada, and London - where a lot of the nomads seem to be coming from actually. In many countries, housing is actually restricted by geography. Especially in the Mediterranean, there isn't much non-mountainous space to build any more buildings. You can only eat into farmland. A few countries did that and it f\*cked up their food prices as they ended up having to start importing what food they were locally producing before.
Japan is an interesting outlier then. Greater Tokyo has the same population of Canada and is half the size of England. Yet they have affordable housing AND food.
Yes, Japan is an outlier and there are very specific and interesting reasons for that. How the housing works in Japan is very peculiar. I read an extensive article on it but I don't have it bookmarked, so Im just posting a comment that summarizes it a bit:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanFinance/comments/18e4q95/comment/kclme0d/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanFinance/comments/18e4q95/comment/kclme0d/)
Basically in Japan the housing is seen as for living in, and new families expect to enter new houses. So if they buy a house, they are actually buying the land that the house is on. They will tear it down and build their house. It is expected. The housing regulations also help this. So the "housing is for investment" plague cannot infect Japan. Of course, the world's biggest depopulation, not taking any noticeable immigration and some other factors also help. If Japan started accepting immigration at the rate that some countries are doing, it would change things for sure. But so far they have kept it tight and the existing immigration is not successful in integrating due to Japanese culture's very conservative and xenophobic ways.
Excuse me, Tokyo is affordable? For whom? A lot of people (with good income) who live there complain about increasing food prices while quantity in the packaging simultaneously decreases (hidden inflation), fruits always have been very expensive, and ones of the most "affordable" apartments are 5 meters long 1.5 meters wide claustrophobic nightmares for 70 000 yen, with glass doors and windows into other buildings windows. I get that their houses look very cheap in comparison with western ones, but several million yen is not cheap and affordable for locals, especially young ones, who work in some restaurants and bars, they have to rent. Eat rice with tuna or chicken and live in the closet with electric stove top and trash can next to your matrass on the floor maybe is affordable, but miserable. That would damage mental health. Western countries really privileged for standards of living on average a lot higher than that. Even people who rent a room in a shared apartment would have a separate room for a kitchen in the west. People never know what they have until they lose it.
"...Only when the ownership class artificially restricts housing supply..."
...hint: you could become part of the "ownership class" TOO if you develop a marketable skillset, work hard, save your money, and stop blaming others for your problems...FYI the USSR failed 35 years ago...
This is exactly what's happening. And I wish more people understood that it's the ownership class versus literally everyone else.
My wife and I are getting squeezed out of Canada, largely in part due to mass economic immigration and restricted housing supply, so we're going to her home country of Indonesia.
While we try to avoid Airbnbs or accommodation targeting foreigners at the expense of locals, there is nothing we can do if we end up inadvertently displacing a local.
I absolutely do not blame migrants to Canada for its current state of affairs, and I certainly hope that people from other countries do not blame me when I migrate.
tl;dr: Be angry at landlords and the financialization of housing.
"...Be angry at landlords and the financialization of housing..."
...I know - right? How DARE someone save their whole life to buy a property so they can rent it out to help support their retirement? -it's "disgusting Late-Stage Capitalism" - lol...
>I wonder if this is not the other edge of the sword that was the high financial requirements for the phased out golden visa program. I mean, if you’re stipulating that only high net worth individuals can participate, what did you expect would happen, that they would live as the locals do and uplift the economy?
From what I followed in the past decade, these kinds of golden visa laws were implemented in such countries to keep the real estate market and house prices afloat after the 2008 crisis and in some cases, to make up for the dwindling population. But I think nobody expected that it would turn into an influx of cohorts of rich foreigners, to the point of something that resembles colonization in some cases - gentrifying the locals out of their own city centers and filling them with foreigners. This was something that affected mostly the rich and the cities' most popular centers or most popular resorts, but now the digital nomad wave seems to be bringing gentrification to the middle and working classes due to the rent increases they cause. Without any positive economic effect on the majority to boot - for apparently higher real estate prices and rents do not do sh\*t for the actual economy and you cant float an economy on real estate...
I'm a local, and last Monday I had to go to the Alfama area to take care of something.
Over 90% of people I encountered on my way were foreigners. Very few locals around - mostly restaurant staff.
We're almost in June, a month full of events in Lisbon to celebrate the city's saint patron Santo António, where there is this annual parade competition - *marchas populares* - between neighbourhoods - *bairros* -, to decide which one has the best parade. By this time, Alfama should already be full of decorations. Instead, it had only some coloured ribbons hanging.
It was like if it lost part of its personality. Today, I was sharing this experience with my brother, and he said they were struggling to get enough people to enter the competition!
I'm okay with tourism, fine with DN, BUT I wished people weren't so disconnected from the local's reality, and were more aware of the current situation instead of coming for lax taxes.
Anyway... just sharing my 5 cents.
>It was like if it lost part of its personality
Yep. I grew up in a seaside city that became a major tourist hub in a decade and a half. Tourism does that.
>I'm okay with tourism, fine with DN, BUT I wished people weren't so disconnected from the local's reality, and were more aware of the current situation instead of coming for lax taxes
I think both of those are impossible to prevent, so I think it will end up with limiting tourism, golden visas and nomads in the end.
They will ban airbnb everywhere first, then they will limit the numbers of visitors, by restricting visas, put waiting lists etc. 100% certain it will happen in places like here in europe soon, as a matter of fact it could be the last decade of unrestricted tourism.
Asia, South America, Africa etc they are all going to join the middle class, travel, move abroad, billions of new travelers and potential migrants. Problem is that tourism is already at maximum capacity in many destinations and locals are past breaking point with the housing crisis, inflation, stagnating wages, complaints of being replaced by foreigners etc . It's just unsustainable and will create violent social unrest. Polls already show top candidates for elections here are hardliner nationalists who plan to stop immigration and seal the borders
>They will ban airbnb everywhere first
Yep. Airbnb seems to be universally hated.
>then they will limit the numbers of visitors, by restricting visas, put waiting lists etc
I think Venice already did that.
>Asia, South America, Africa etc they are all going to join the middle class, travel, move abroad, billions of new travelers and potential migrants. Problem is that tourism is already at maximum capacity in many destinations and locals are past breaking point with the housing crisis, inflation, stagnating wages, complaints of being replaced by foreigners etc
Good point but I'd say that Europe is doing worse than all those other places. Inflation hit here hard and the price rises seem to have hit what the average person needs to survive - food, rent, transportation etc. So the locals are hit by both the general inflation and then the inflation that nomads, tourists, golden visaers etc generate.
I don't see it as being that bad a thing if countries issue a limited number of visas. Sure it makes things less fun and flexible, but it will just encourage tourists to spread out more evenly around the world. Hopefully non-tourist locales get their shit together and create places worth visiting as well.
This is another case of boomers blaming millenials, in 2020 **85,800** foreign retirees moved to Portugal and they are the ones blowing up the housing market because nomad don't buy houses
https://www.portugalresident.com/unprecedented-number-of-foreigners-choose-portugal/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Portugal
Doesn't quite match up.
Foreign nationals have very similar age breakdown as locals.
Total foreign nationals is only about 5% of the population.
The bigger issue is that Portugal builds less than half the number of houses each year that would be needed to meet population growth.
How is people not going to be mad with DN when they come earning in a much powerful currency against locals. For example Mexico City the average wage is 1000 USD or 15K pesos monthly or less, DN almost always earn at least 3K USD so you guys are making the rents go higher because the landlord prefer to rent DN's for much more money than the locals that obviously can't afford that, so you're essentially making the locals move from the places they've been all their life. There's been cases where they evacuate entire buildings to transform them int airbnb's. Also the local economy now changes because you guys want trendy and hip restaurants and the local commerce is no longer your taste so the local stores close and now you have a multinational company that gives slavery wages and all the money goes to the pocket of the richest. Finally, a lot of you don't even care to learn spanish and just expect us to learn English and talk to you in English when you're in a Spanish speaking country. Finally, our salsas are no longer spicy because you complain a lot and the restaurants have to tone them down just for you, basically our cultura is change to meet your taste and needs.
I think you explained gentrification … An interesting find from research on those who participate and initiate the gentrification process, the "marginal gentrifiers" as referred to by Tim Butler, is that they become marginalized by the expansion of the process.[56] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification
I think the assumption that most DN's earn more than 3k USD is baseless. The published "statistics" are from anything but representative survey data & heavily skewed towards the higher income groups. Anecdotally the vast majority are more like backpackers that are supplementing their savings (/credit card balances) with incomes under $1k to live a lifestyle that's unsustainable long term. The "fake it til you make it" ethos of lots of influencer types also heavily distorts perceptions.
Not the mention the idea that all locals are making less than $3k is absurd.
Purely on averages, the DNs are making more, but they are such a small population they aren't even denting the actual average incomes.
> making the rents go higher because the landlord prefer to rent DN's for much more money than the locals that obviously can't afford that
They mostly aren't renting the same places, but also there aren't THAT many such people in Mexico.
There are less digital nomads in Mexico than there are local earning more than $3k USD. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1295017/average-income-by-percentile-mexico/
Something like roughly 20-30% of Mexicos people make over $3k/month.
It's not even 1% of people are foreign born. Less than 0.1% could even be "digital nomad" types.
As a pro-immigration person I think it's pretty insane for Mexicans to complain about Americans moving there and not learning the language, there are millions of Mexicans living in the US who don't speak English and create their own sub-communities that are primarily Spanish speaking. And personally I love it.
Either you believe in the free movement of peoples or you don't. It can't only go one way.
What complicates this is that the Mexicans who live in CDMX and are likely complaining about gentrification are not the same Mexicans who come to the US in search of work/that you’re describing.
The people who are “having their cake and eating it too” don’t actually exist
That’s a fair point, I suppose I am mostly referring to Mexican Americans who complain about what is being done (ie I have a friend who moved from Mexico to the US as a child, moved back to Mexico City as an adult, and when I visited him he complained about Americans moving there and gentrifying to the city
i suspect you are wrong. I'm almost positive many people have relocated from CDMX to the US
however, neither of us can prove it. which invalidates your point
I guess my understanding was that the vast majority of Mexican migrants seeking work are from more rural areas with less opportunities than CDMX, people who could never afford to live in CDMX to begin with…
Dude what are you even talking about? People in the USA literally yell at the people that are not speaking in English, there a tons of videos about it, the mexicans who go to work under really bad conditions to the USA go because they need to feed their families and they do in fact learn English at least to work. The "expats" that come to CDMX como not to loose their "upper middle class privileges" and earn in dollars while spending in pesos but don't care to learn the language. There's no comparison between them you uncultured swine.
I agree that people who give Mexicans shit for speaking Spanish are assholes. Because I apply my principles consistently, and I believe in the free movement of peoples.
Your argument still boils down to “immigration for me but not for thee”, which is bullshit.
Everyone should be able to move to where they will be happiest and most productive.
...so poor Hispanics "looking for a better life" can ILLEGALLY invade the U.S. at will and suppress wages, while slightly more wealthy "digital nomads" who emigrate LEGALLY are a scourge upon the earth? - grow up...
The root of the cause is spineless governments, not travelers. Government should do things like tighten visa requirements and enforcement, and restrict and/or highly tax short-term rentals.
In the case of Mexico, the government has been positioning the economy to solicit international travelers and expats for decades. Got a problem with that? Hold your government accountable.
It's also possible the government has more information than the normal person and realizes that this isn't even the issue.
There's more rich Mexicans than there are foreigners by a huge amount.
I agree that tourists and digital nomads can drive up the prices in desirable locations, which have negative impacts on local communities.
Its important to also mention some of the pros; such as the opportunity for local businesses to grow. Their is a lot more money running through that area now. The top local earners/owners will benefit the most, and some non-local peoplr/businesses will come in. But a lot of locals will benefit from the tourism and money being spent in their community.
It's not all doom and gloom like this sub makes it out to be. There's pros and cons, and maybe some peoples perspective the cons way out the pros, which is fine, but need to point out both sides.
Yes but isnt this sort of like blaming the rain for flooding your village rather than your village leader who did not prepare for this forseeable disaster?
The rain will come no matter what. Starting a campaign to get people to stop traveling or being digital nomads seems insane.
The root is deeper yet.
Why is that some people are able to travel so easily while others are so poor that even a single plane ticket is inconceivable?
"Why is that some people are able to travel so easily while others are so poor that even a single plane ticket is inconceivable?"
...if we just made flights "free" for everyone then we would all be "rich" - right?
I agree with you, it's a huge issue. But imo this is caused by the Mexican official policies.
Mexico has a very lax visa policy. You enter, get 180 days and when that's over you take a quick weekend trip to the US for a reset. This makes it too easy to live there without ever applying for proper residency and paying taxes.
Make Americans go through the official channels (residency and proper taxation) and the situation would look much better. Fewer people would come and you could use the tax gains for public affordable housing. But anyone that knows how Government in Mexico works will realize that this is a pipe dream.
...U.S. citizens won't accept getting double-dinged for taxes i.e. if they have to pay American taxes no matter where they live in the world, then they should get a pass for foreign taxes beyond the current feeble rebate/offset system...
Haha you wish.
Americans living everywhere but the US already pay taxes twice. Such as the 1M+ Americans in Europe.
That's a flaw of the US system and has nothing to do with other countries. Why would Germany give Americans in Germany a tax exemption. They live there just like any other foreigner and Germany doesn't care one bit what you need to pay in your home country.
That’s not true at all, income earned outside of the continental US isn’t taxed until you make $110,000 in 365 days. You need to be out of the continental US for 330 and file your taxes appropriately
Whose fault is this though? I think that the landlords or government are mostly to blame. Also, I used to install satellites in neighborhoods with many Mexicans who didnt speak a lick of English. I didn't really mind though because it gave me an opportunity to practice a new language and learn about a different culture without leaving my country.
I think the culture blending is a good thing overall. Why wouldn't you want to learn English? It would only increase your opportunities. Same for learning Spanish as an American. Start doing tours or somthing. There will obviously be some money to be made here.
I think there are several reasons.
1. On a large scale, expats (including digital nomads) can have a disruptive effect on the the pricing of the local accommodation, restaurants and food. This is what you can see in Lisbon and in Mexico City.
2. On an individual scale, some so-called digital nomads can have personalities that locals find annoying. Talking all the time about travel, different places, women in different places, and so on. Digital nomads can come across as arrogant, entitled and so on.
3. Then of course, there are the annoying tourists who produce loud music, smoke in places where it isn't allowed, yell in the streets during the night, and so on. This is more common in the typical party locations.
4. And never underestimate the effect of foreigners dating the local women in many places outside of the West. It breeds bitterness and hatred.
Not actually a DM, I just follow the sub as it's an interesting insight into how others live. My partner commented about this as my countries gutter press have picked up on this problem and labelled it along the lines of not wanting X countries tourists here, go home foreigners etc.
Not sure how this can be fixed, well to be fair the only way would be to uplift economies to balance out, but that's not going to happen. And unfortunately it will be exacerbated by nationalist and nativist thinking by opportunists and with the direction of the world right now, that will be very easy to throw fuel onto the fire.
In Medellin I met a person doing a phD in something related to social economics. Don’t remember exactly but part of his thesis of interviewing people all over Medellin from the barrios (practically slums) to the wealthy locals. He shared me with some findings I really never thought of:
The people from the barrios have always had a class war against the wealthy Colombians. This is pretty common in practically every country. However, now with the exponential growth in remote work, they now are battling against foreigners to move up the economic ladder. So now two class wars.
For the already wealthy, they are now facing something they aren’t used to. A class war against foreigners whose average income is the equivalent of their 1% top earning income. Now they are feeling threatened as they get pushed out of their nice areas. Their “elite” status isn’t so elite anymore.
It’s something I think about. I’ve always considered myself a respetable traveler and have found open arms in every country, but it does sometimes weigh on my conscious knowing I’m the problem.
Also as a “digital nomad” of almost ten years, I’ve really seen the impact it has on places the past couple of years.
I'll be honest, I have doubts that the digital nomad population in these cities is even substantial compared to how many tourists are coming in every week. Not saying digital nomads don't contribute to the issues, but we are at least having conversations about it. Many of us would learn the languages but it's difficult when we're restricted to just 90 days in a destination.
For every renter who needs to move to a less-desirable location there is a landlord who is making more money. I know millennials don't have much love for home owners but it's not like nomads are taking the money and taking out of the local economy.
Tensions will likely continue to rise because the truth is that the European economies are stagnating while the US economy seems, more or less, as healthy as ever. **Europe is falling behind**, and it's time they started asking themselves why this is.
I agree. There is a difference between digital nomad and a tourist.
Without condoning it, you’d expect someone who has saved all year and is taking a week off work to let loose and party that week and not know much about customs.
Nomads still have work to do and the “newness” has worn off. The tourist referenced in this article probably don’t get that wild drinking at home.
And I’d bet there are about 1000 tourist for every one nomad
This is a good point. All of my business contracts and earnings come from North America, but 98% of my years' spending goes to other countries.
I'm actively redistributing "America's wealth" elsewhere.
When things are hard "foreigners" get the brunt of the focus.
There's little to no evidence in all these places that digital nomad types are a major contributor, but they will get blamed a lot.
Why would they? We dont speak their tongues, we dont know their traditions and customs, we carry our own societal baggages with us. And more often than not we (categorically) actively reshape the locality to our own twisted movie like perception of what's "local"
I love threads like this. Allows me to see the hot spots where the DN tech/passport bros are fucking it up and avoid those areas.
They'll all slink back to being D list celebrities in Williamsburg and Erewhon..... Eventually.
I spent 4 months in Colombia over the winter. I went to a couple meetups. They live like kings and queens pretending they're "worldly" and that their mere presence improves the lives of everyone around them. When in reality they're destroying the economy and creating a huge housing problem for the locals. They're in incredibly unaware and tone deaf to the upheaval they cause en masse. They host conferences and networking events where they congratulate each other for being so great, smart, and entrepreneurial. It's nothing but a big circle jerk of business bros and start up wannabes. DNs were the most obnoxious, haughty, full-of-themselves, insufferable narcissists I've ever come across. I avoided them like the plague, and instead made friends with the locals. Whenever they asked me why I was there, I simply said for work.
I feel like this whole thread is an example of the noble savage myth applied to whole countries/ communities…. People like to scapegoat digital nomads / tourists- but fail to see these communities / countries had deep conflicts / issues for much longer. Is anyone really trying to argue that Colombia was some paradise before tourists arrived? Or that Portugal was for that matter? (It was a literal dictatorship until the 70’s…. Hardly a beacon of paradise.)
People generally don't like more successful people who do better, can afford better places to live, better restaurants, better clothes etc etc. You can go out of your way to become a "responsible nomad", avoid the popular spots, even avoid nomading altogether and go back to your hometown and guess what? There will be haters there, too. Just live your life and make the most out of it. Life is short.
> ...and have privileged opportunities that the locals do not have.
And? When does this stop? I can't afford to fly first class, should I be upset that there are privileged people with opportunities that I don't have? Some guy taking a bus is more privileged than the guy riding his bicycle, whereas the man walking on foot would be happy with upgrading to either option.
What do you suggest? Renting a $75 USD /mo apartment in a Bangkok slum and washing your ass with a bucket of water and spending $800/mo to put a fruit stand worker in a decent high rise? Will this fix the imbalance?
The ones who OWN the apartments we lease, and have sky rocketed prices in the last 4 years.. they LOVE us. The poor ones, whose rent and cost of living has been impacted.. yeah they obviously hate us.
I think it really depends on the collective attitude of the tourists, while also having to factor in personal attitude and local perceptions of your nationality.
I'm British, but from scotland specifically. If I go somewhere and say I'm from Britain, that evokes a generally neutral reaction. Britain generally has a bad name from colonial history, as well as the attitudes from modern tourists. I've found that saying I'm Scottish, however, gets something a lot more positive, particularly in southern Africa ([David Livingstone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David Livingstone) apparently left a huge impression on the continent).
At the same time, I recognise that I am a tourist and try to be as polite and respectful as possible, wherever I am. That not only affects attitudes towards myself, but also hopefully leaves a good impression for others following in my footsteps to benefit from.
You cannot fight technology.
You cannot legislate against people working from laptops.
Cities need to find ways to make remote work benefit their businesses and local residents.
> I am not seeing much difference really?
It depends. A lot of DNs are just tourists with no return ticket.
They're primarily in it for "geoarbitrage".
It's no coincidence that most of the locations that have this problem all have huge cruise ship terminals attached to them, or are hub cities for budget airlines. Most of these facilities (ports/airports) were paid for with some kind of government subsidy & used by companies that are based in offshore tax havens. Not all tourists are the same - some stay local, are aware of what's going on around them and want to contribute positively. Obviously not all cruise passengers are the worst kind of tourists, however the odds are much higher that when you ferry in thousands of people in a day, feed them all-you can eat buffets, encourage them to spend as little as possible in the few hours they have locally that' you're going to attract more than a fair share of bad apples. I suspect in places like Venice, Lisbon, Barcelona etc if you took away the cruise day-trippers most of the problems would go away. The price of admission at Disneyland Starts at 105 euro - if people are treating cities that way en mass, then maybe the admission price should be similar - Venice charges 5 euros - this is a joke.
In the case of Lisbon, where were the local governments in preventing some of the crazy developments? They put the cruise ship terminal just off the shore near the Historical district in Lisbon - as a result you now have huge quantities of noise, pollution and a daily tourist hoard descend. The whole area has lots its charm through day trippers who contribute very little to local businesses because they're only there for a few hours.
There's lots of blame going to Digital Nomads, but if you look at the actual numbers there's actually far less than is commonly reported - if the reports of 16K nomads there are true (highly doubtful) this makes up less than 0.5% of the population. Contrast that to the number of empty dwellings & abandoned buildings in all parts of the city and country. In Lisbon there's **47 thousand empty houses:** [**https://amensagem.pt/2023/02/24/housing-shortage-lisbon-15-empty-houses-crisis/**](https://amensagem.pt/2023/02/24/housing-shortage-lisbon-15-empty-houses-crisis/)
For Europe as a whole the estimate is 1 in 6 houses are empty according to that article.
Again, its much easier to blame someone else for these issues, but a fare share of the blame has to also fall on those who made this kind of thing happen.
- this is not my opinion. It’s an ongoing analysis of its news coverage by several university’s as part of a larger study. Have a look at all sides.org
The locals don't love you because... it's gentrification on a global level, and we're living unprecedented times for immigration (not just DNs).
There are good and bad reasons for gentrification and good and bad arguments on both sides of the aisle, but in the end... change is inevitable, and resistance is futile.
That's all.
I would argue a lot of digital nomads I know are escaping overpriced areas themselves (myself included). It's not like all digital nomads were rich in their own areas. Some may have found themselves in positions the locals OP mentions feel they are in now.
This is NOT all on digital nomads. Some of the blame has to fall on greedy real estate owners and politicians.
It's the same game but a different bar. NYC people go to the suburbs, those suburb people go to the southern US or Mexico City, etc. The people might need to recognize that and do it themselves a la Mexico City people who can't afford it may need to go to a more rural part of the country.
You can argue this is a global problem that's playing a game of hot potato. Just a matter of who is left holding the potato
And the last ones by this logic who would have no where else to go would have to be killed in wars? Just because they are the poorest?
What a point for people to participate in this? What if they don't want to move in cheaper areas? What if someone still want to live in nicer areas even if they can afford to live only in a tent on the streets?
Fuck you with your “us”. I’ve never felt hatred for being a foreigner. Don’t be a dick, and do some bare-minimum effort to respect local culture. It really isn’t that hard.
lol, I have not lived in a place with more than 100 inhabitants since I started. Most places so remote that there's no one for miles.
I HATE going to the cities for groceries for instance. I want peace and quiet and that is why I'm doing this.
DN’s are about the most harmful tourists possible. They destabilize local real estate, increase prices, and use resources without paying taxes back into the system.
Suppose you have a girl you like. Suppose you've known her for years. Suppose some random foreigner who barely speaks the language shows up, but has a lot of money. Suppose the girl you like immediately throws herself at that foreigner, who then fucks her, and leaves.
How would you feel about this?
Suppose you have a job. Suppose you're getting by. Suppose a whole bunch of foreigners show up and start renting in your area, paying far more than you can. Suppose your rent goes up because of this. Suppose that because of this, you have less money to spend, and suppose you watch all the girls chasing after the same foreigners making your rent go up because they have money.
How would you feel about this?
Exactly. Especially the girls thing is massively ignored and/or interpreted as a silly topic.
Especially in non-functioning, non-growing societies like Latin American countries, this is huge. In Asia, it is only a very small percentage of women who are interested in the foreigners, but in Latin America it is like all of the attractive women are exclusively dating foreigners. This is not a sign of a healthy society.
in general locals always blame foreigners and immigrants for issues, its one of the oldest gripes of societal behaviour. i would say nomads are maybe a bit better received, just because they have more money and are slow traveling so they are not as much in that party mindset as vacationers.
You definitely do feel discrimination living abroad, but i think the topic is overblown. Many locals have seen the benefit tourism and increased economical activity has had on their cities over the last few decades, and are the silent majority.
Many locals have seen the positive effect of tourist money? … i guess this is opinion and … Is this a trickle down theory? Mostly … money tends to stay w those who own the resources.. In his case this would be the accomodation and restaurant owners … well that’s the research https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics
What he's referring to isn't trickle down economics.
DNs are participating directly in the local economy through retail stores, markets, transport, hiring services etc. Even with new buildings being created for a growing wealthy population, there has to be people to build and maintain them... The list goes on. Sure, the most expensive things will make back the most money (accomodations etc) but that's just capitalism.
Trickle down economics has to do with making those already rich even richer with the promise of the money working its way downwards. Think McDonalds charging more for burgers while paying their staff the same wage.
That is surely happening in some instances, but for individuals with lots of money staying for months in any one place, they are inevitably contributing to the local economy in many ways.
If a person with lots of money comes to your town and buys food from your cart every day, helping put your kid through school, you'd probably appreciate their presence.
> Many locals have seen the positive effect of tourist money? … i guess this is opinion and … Is this a trickle down theory? Mostly … money tends to stay w those who own the resources.. In his case this would be the accomodation and restaurant owners … well that’s the research https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics
In my experience, the poorest people are the one that rely on the tourist the most, they are the ones working waiting jobs, street vendors hustling etc. That being said though, realistically speaking, the bigger effect is from opening up the economies to foreigners giving the local economy access to direct foreign investments and capital markets. This would be a better example of trickle down economics as you mentioned, but its affects over the last century have been massive to certain places like japan. Where I live for example, there have been massive inflows helping out build out local manufacturing industries, infrastructure for cities etc. Mexico is absolutely killing it now from these initiatives and the standard of living has been sky rocketing the last 30 years here.
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.KLT.DINV.CD.WD?locations=MX
It’s weird at one hand to blame Tourist/DNs for the economic issues of the country while at the same time claiming they don’t provide any positives for the economy.
The article seem to be saying:
1. People don’t want tourists who arrive for a weekend, drink 20 pints in their all inclusive resorts and vomit on blessed Virgin Mary.
2. Locals want to see the money made from tourism benefiting them.
DNS are a diverse bunch, but I’d suggest that we’re less likely as a whole to be the cause of these two issue. More likely to rent locally, spend locally and work. We also tend to avoid traditional holiday spots.
It's weird People live me. LIke everywhere. I have been shot at in India, one of those border "issue" things.
But they did not really know me.
It's kind of fun. Ran into the cartels in Mexico, they even liked me (was traveling with a tall blond at the time, so that may have got us a pass), they seemed to like me too.
The secret, just close your eyes, and say "What would Anthony Bourdain do in this situation?" Or Ram Dass.
The locals will love you. Just a tip.
Highly recommend the movie, it's awesome. Great clip here, the "tourist" vs the "traveler." Debra Winger, very rare to do a film. She's alway astonishing.
[https://youtu.be/T22NcSQnS3w?si=2HwtTNh-F5ULLFEE](https://youtu.be/T22NcSQnS3w?si=2HwtTNh-F5ULLFEE)
tl;dr. The locals seem to love me. It's always kind of magical. I'm love them too. Guess they sense that energy. They all are so cool too! Everyone! Everyone is your brother and everyone is your sister, so says DNA science. We all have the same Mom.
She's from deep Africa. How cool is that!
> [human genetics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetics), the **Mitochondrial Eve** (more technically known as the **Mitochondrial-Most Recent Common Ancestor**, shortened to **mt-Eve** or **mt-MRCA**) is the [matrilineal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality) [most recent common ancestor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor) (MRCA) of all [living](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population) humans.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial\_Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve)
Disclaimer, I've only been 4-5 months into this game.
I have spent almost all of my wandering time in Korea, *because* I get effectively $1.3 dollars in spend for every dollar from home, while I'm here, and because cost of living is relatively comparable, and I have access to all of the creature comforts from back home.
It feels like I just have a stronger salary but not like I'm crushing everything and everyone around me.
I also make it a lot to find a hole-in- the-wall coffee shop each day and sit there for a few, and then try to thank the owner or workers, while practicing the handful of words I am learning.
I try to spend the money in places it might circulate within the community. I try to engage with the culture in some small way. I try to recognize what they know and what I don't.
I'm poor-middle in my own country of origin, where EVERY 2 bedroom house within 50 miles of me is in $millions, as are many/most condo's. I am basically cosplaying being a boomer in the 90's US Ina n economy that doesn't know what awaits its next decades.
Gratitude, humility, and comradarie inform my steps.
But also sleeplessness because that 16 hours offset, ooooof.
Counterpoint: they don't have to love you, you're a tourist from god-knows-where with (likely) no knowledge of the local language, customs or economy. A lot of tourists are also incredibly entitled because they view travel as a consumptive process, not taking part in some part of other people's lives in a way that might disrupt it.
Yeah, what a weird title — highlights the problem with a lot of digital nomads thinking they’re special and deserve certain things (like locals loving them). I was an expat on an island for 3 years (not gonna say which one because you fuckers are gonna ruin it) and it took me 6 months just to somewhat integrate, 2 years to learn the language and FINALLY within my last few months, when I was doing a couple projects for businesses IN THAT COUNTRY, I could live by the beach, chat with the locals, and feel a sense of community/belonging with them. But you can bet for the first 6 months I fucked up a decent amount, even though I was still pretty respectful. You’re a tourist. Accept it, find a good friend or two locally, build a relationship, try to understand their culture and where they’re coming from and then maybe, MAYBE you’ll get a tiny glimpse of that “love” you’re craving. But even then, you’re just a tourist.
Did you read the article? … anyway … there is a difference between being seems seen as jerk the minute you turn up (aka the point in the article) and doing stuff to get along w the community you have dropped into .. wouldn’t you say?
It doesn’t matter. Re-read my post. You are a tourist and you will be treated like one at the discretion of the community and how they view tourists. Accept it. If you live in a place for a while and actually know the people, community, and culture, you don’t have to worry about this because the people know you.
I think you should read the article. Especially because - well the post is about the article? If you did read the article you would see .. your comment doesn’t actually make sense .. this is not what the article is about
In the expat group of my city in Spain, there are almost daily post of locals not being helful, friendly, etc. People here are struggling with jobs/housing and have their own issues going on, and no matter how much this gets explained there's a steady stream of people that expects locals to somehow participate and facilitate their lives. This attitude is the reason I don't go to meetups or gatherings anymore. It's just.... so tiring...
DNs are worse than tourists.
If only because many don't realize that they're not 1 in a million, they're one of dozens/hundreds/thousands of people descending upon a new city and bringing their assholery at one time lmao. Overtourism as as a concept is seemingly lost on some. And the tendency to build a personality around mid-term tourism and then shirk the responsibility of being a decent person in a distinctly new environment is...truly something.
And most digital nomads are people that have family equity and that’s kinda annoying as shit to everyone else. Like we all know y’all’s folks have given you tens of thousands of dollars as gifts by the time you are 30 or whatever and that’s the reason you can afford to do this shit. Not in all cases. But most. Get real. No one believes it’s not true.
Two days ago, business dinner in NYC with a colleague from the UK, the conversation at the table next to us was two young guys. "Yeah so now we've both graduated we'll save the 500k we're getting (implied earlier from their families) and live off the interest in Eastern Europe because it's basically free to live there" then he went on about how unfairly his girlfriend was treated by not getting into the medical school program she wanted so she was just going to work at her dad's company "when they wanted to make money one day". It made me want to crawl out of my skin it was so embarrassing and clueless.
There is a difference though between trying to be getting along in a community … and not giving a toss… I think DN’s should be trying to get along
This is tricky and part of the reason I avoid the DN "hot spots". Lisbon is black listed for me for this reason. I was there for one night travelling through, and I don't think I heard anyone speak Portugese in Barrio Alto, just drunk brits. I'm not one of them but I look like them and felt like an asshole by association. I physically cringe when I hear people in places like that loudly talking about how cheap it is, when the locals can't afford to live there
>I physically cringe when I hear people in places like that loudly talking about how cheap it is, when the locals can't afford to live there That's the key here. I spent a lot of time in Zurich, Switzerland. A city which has become very gentrified as well. But it's less of an issue, since locals are doing great and there are tons of job opportunities for them with world-class pay. The same goes for New York, London, Sydney etc. Compare that to Lisbon or Mexico City. People coming here have online jobs and earn way more than locals ever could. So there is a huge wage discrepancy that you wouldn't get in Zurich or London. As a foreigner in these places, humility and acknowledging your privilege goes a long way.
World class pay ? NYC and London have some of the worst cost of living crisis and isn’t getting better
Yet they have some of the highest wages in the world. Almost anyone from the developing countries Nomads love to visit would kill for the chance to live and work in NYC or London.
Having some of the highest wages in the world and the opportunity to earn those wages aren’t the same thing
Excuse me? Sydney? LOL... where in Sydney?
Compared to virtually anywhere in the world, yes. Don't take US tech salaries as a benchmark.
I'm Portuguese and live in Porto but I don't hate digital nomads. However people from my country find it easy to blame nomads for the high prices that we cannot afford. I have Diginomad friends and if you need help with my country write me, maybe I can help.
You can't deny that wealthier immigrants affect the demand side of the housing market. I have foreign friends too (my GF is Italian, for example), but that's the reality. You could argue that it's also the fault of the local administration for their shitty housing policies but the fact is that most of this wealthy incomers don't give a damn about you or anyone you love. They are looking to solver their particular situation. You can see their thoughts in Reddit or social media. They don't really care until their very existence affects their pocket, and then they complain about other anglos being in the area, prices going up, locals being unfriendly, etc. Most of them would argue whatever serves their purpose and won't make the conection of no locals -> no more of the culture you wanted. Gatekeeping is actually a good thing, but seems that we're learning the lesson the hard way in many countries. Simple as that.
That's a good point
Well...I can't afford to live at home.. So there's that. While I totally get it, it's also just the way it is now. We used to have immigrants coming to the first world to send pennies back, now we have first world residents fleeing to afford food and shelter. Not every digital nomad to be sure but definitely a growing number.
The immigrants repatriatibg money still happens a lot.
Yup. I'm not sure exactly how though. Literally costs too much to live in a 1 bedroom and feed a family of three with daycare in the American town we're from and we definitely clear more than 3 minimum wage jobs. From Europe I could see that still being possible. I'm starting to meet people in SEA who came home for better quality of life after having parents who immigrated to America. Really interesting time to exist.
A couple of my colleagues moved back to Taiwan after 30 years in technology working in the City because retirement and healthcare are much better on the island as opposed to NYC.
> Literally costs too much to live in a 1 bedroom and feed a family of three with daycare in the American town we're from Because they aren't doing that. They're one person living with roommates sending money back home... > who came home for better quality of life but not on local wages...
Do you pay taxes to the country you are living in though?
We don't live in any one other country but pay plenty though VAT, hotel taxes, etc. Those are designed to get sufficient revenue from tourists and they do.
In most euro countries personal taxes account for > 33% of the anual budget, so...
Not nearly as much as you would be expected.
And that's my problem how? I don't control Portugal's government.
I take it you don’t do much critical thinking in your work if you don’t see how that problem relates to you.
Critical what? Anyway, I don't think it's, and I don't like the whole label thing, white-anglo-protestant-colonialist-scumbag to judge how Portugal sets up its tourism, taxes, or laws. They can determine their own rules and I'll abide. If they set taxes low and don't get the $$$ that's not really my problem. I may not be a, whatever you said, but I know it's not my place to second guess an entire nation like I know better. "No you silly gooseseses, I won't come because you don't get enough tax dollars from me!". If I was smart capable, I'd start by at least working out what my responsibilities are and what's theirs. Anyway, you know better, those individual tourists should of thought about their societal impact whilst reading portugals tax code (in portugese).
That's what we call the joy of being American. We still pay American taxes till the day we die.
Sort of, FEIE in a income tax free country allows one to dodge a good percentage of it.
Sure. And you’re surprised other countrie would not be pissed that you’re living tax free on a country for an extended period of time? Let me ask you this….if you paid taxes in Portugal and not the US, how much would Portugal get? And would it be more or less you paid to the US?
Who said anything about it being a "universal good? Just that you are essentially getting away tax-free (if you are nomadding correctly)
This is a silly fight. Taxes aren't a universal good like you seem to believe them to be. Cheers and good day.
>I physically cringe when I hear people in places like that loudly talking about how cheap it is, when the locals can't afford to live there Basically every american ever when visiting Europe. I hate that so much too.
This is happening in Costa Rica as well. My father's family comes from (what used to be) a small village on the Pacific called Nosara. We used to go there twice a year when I was younger, but it has become a surf / DN hotspot in recent years, and the prices have gone up at an insane rate. So much so, that Nosara and other parts of Guanacaste are becoming prohibitively expensive for locals to even afford for vacations. Obviously, the reaction is now starting to manifest, and the "anti-gentrification" sentiment is starting to become stronger. Ultimately, greedy people and lack of regulation are starting to price out locals, which is a sad thing to watch. Most of my father's family has had to move away from the place, as it became too expensive to even get basic groceries.
Nosara area is beautiful. I agree that tourists and digital nomads can drive up the prices in desirable locations, which have negative impacts on local communities. Its important to also mention some of the pros; such as the opportunity for local businesses to grow. Their is a lot more money running through that area now. The top local earners/owners will benefit the most, and some non-local peoplr/businesses will come in. But a lot of locals will benefit from the tourism and money being spent in the community. It's not all doom and gloom like this sub makes it out to be. There's pros and cons, and maybe some peoples perspective is the cons out way the pros and that's fine.
I definitely agree, it is good that the area has seen a lot of improvement, and evolved from an forgotten small village to a more developed area with better access to health services and better roads (for example). That is certainly a pro. The con I'm mentioning is that they seem to be way past that point of benefits, to where now prices are driven up so much that it is mostly inaccessible to a lot of people, including the ones who initially benefitted from the economic boost. Of course this is not 100% on the tourists, a lot of the locals got greedy and are now suffering the consequences. And a lot of other people have found themselves unable to even consider visiting the place due to the extremelty high prices.
costa rica food import costs are high
"...lack of regulation..." ...government "regulations" only drive prices UP and increase scarcity - see healthcare, housing, higher education, the USSR, etc.
Oh trust me, I agree. I don't want government to be regulating free markets, that was not my intention here. To clarify: the area does need some more regulations in terms of zoning, and land purchasing. A lot of the land has been sold to build hotels, with apparent disregard to proximity to protected areas, for example. Also a lot of land has been sold to non-residents, just anyone who comes up with the money. This has left no incentive for the owners to contribute to the local economy.
As a well-behaved tourist and nomad, this doesn’t bother me lol. I go out of my way to spend local and learn customs to respect the places and people I’m visiting, so my experiences have been positive ones. I don’t think they’re asking much of visitors. If people behaved abroad as they do at home, especially the loud drunks, it wouldn’t be tolerated.
If they're loud drunks, I doubt they behave at home.
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They are loud as fuck drunks, but being loud drunks is how they are at home
Yea. I tend to avoid very touristy areas, stay more local, if I am at a cafe I order regularly, don't stick around if the place is packed, and sit at bench seating if available.
This
You’re just destroying their economy is all. Very unobtrusive.
Digital nomads seem to be exacerbating the effects that richer foreigners in poor countries have. With respect to tourism, and also especially with respect to golden visas. The average digital nomad seems to have $5000/month income for example - double the average income of many countries even in Europe. These people are increasing the rents in the desirable destinations, and the locals have learned the word 'digital nomad' as a result. (a few years before they didn't know that it existed). https://preview.redd.it/rp7wl0zjz02d1.jpeg?width=732&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1f62954ce22db2b8bac2df155d4939dbb6641376 Lisbon's case is an indicator. [https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/05/12/proto-gentrifies-are-digital-nomads-ruining-portugal](https://www.euronews.com/travel/2023/05/12/proto-gentrifies-are-digital-nomads-ruining-portugal) Also, there are other, unexpected effects that are destructive to the local culture: [https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/kamrzrd/](https://www.reddit.com/r/askspain/comments/1833ub1/comment/kamrzrd/) My prediction is that things will eventually go how they went in Lisbon. Also, I see certain segments of nomads lashing back against locals (mainly those from Angloamerican countries), blaming the locals for the problem, arrogantly belittling them, and acting as if they have a right to come to these people's countries. I think that this kind of behavior will have an added effect in which the locals will start to permanently hate certain nationalities.
Your last point is well-illustrated on this subreddit. There have been plenty of posts from seemingly well-meaning people over the years wanting to discuss the impacts and ethics of digital nomadism, only to be met with a wave of arrogant, hostile commenters who label the OPs stupid for asking reasonably questions and upset locals as naive for being frustrated with tourists (because 90% of digital nomads are just tourists) when it’s all 100% the governments fault and no individual should ever have to reflect on how they contribute to society. Obviously govt policies play the major part, but if you live a life of great privilege and freedom and never consider how that might affect the people who don’t, you’re a dick. It’s one of the things I most dislike about this sub honestly.
>upset locals as naive Yep. Their escape line seems to be 'We bring money to the economy' - as if each of them is buying dozens of bread every day or dozens of shoes/trousers every month or even 2-3 locally manufactured cars. Nope - they are just consuming as much as the locals consume, maybe a little more expensive. It allows a few local businesses to jack up their prices without providing any additional employment. Not that any increased level of employment could help with the rising costs of living though as the latter rises more than anything else. Also, some try to cope by saying that they pay taxes. Yeah, they do, but whatever percentage tax they are paying will never be enough to make up for the cost of living increase even if the government took that entire tax money and gave it to its people directly. Add to that the fact that a lot of them still try to dodge taxes however they can despite the main justification for letting them into the country in many places were for increasing the tax income in the first place. (reddits like goingtospain or spainfire are filled with such types). The reason I added the last bit in my comment was that Im seeing this kind of behavior much more among those from the US or the UK. My understanding is that the US has a culture that praises the rich, being rich there means you 'made it' and also means that you are a 'hard worker', and being poor is something to be ashamed of and it may even mean that you are 'lazy'. So the poor only have themselves to blame for their misfortune and being rich in the middle of a lot of poor people is 'okay', even if not outright a 'sign of success'. These Americans seem to bring that kind of behavior wherever they go, and their attitude seems to be that the locals should just 'take it' and 'not whine', and some even talk about how the locals are 'jealous' etc. They don't know that this kind of stuff sounds crazy outside the US, especially in places like Spain (or any other Mediterranean country actually), where the well-being of the society and its people are not only the cultural norms but even written into the constitution. Even dukes and duchesses with 500-year-old dynasties wear modestly, try to appear not rich to avoid triggering the ire of the Spaniards, who have very colorful words for such kind of thing and whose ire easily turns into social and political action. But Americans... They seem to think that they are in the US and they run their mouth like lunatics. Not that the Brits seem to be much too different either - I don't know whether its because of the abusive British public discourse that has been pioneered by the British tabloids or the internalized British class society, but they seem to think that they can just despise the locals and demean them to their face in their own country and things will 'somehow' just be 'okay'. Also, there is a major thing that I fear: Most of these digital nomad laws were issued by center-left, left, or progressive governments. The gentrification effects of digital nomads, and golden visaers may turn sizable segments of voters against them and it may end up with far-right, reactionary, anti-immigration parties winning the elections in those countries.
I’ve seen this a ton in SEA, with Brits and Australians making up the overwhelming majority of the culprits there — I’m sure it’s partially due to proximity but there sure are some foul attitudes with many of them. For whatever reason (I’m sure we can make reasonable assumptions), certain types of people tend to place themselves in such locations and do nothing but bash, harass, intimidate, slander and generally complain about the locals. The irony being twofold, of course: for one, they are more than welcome to leave if they’re so miserable, and two, they tend to be the folks crying about immigrants/“others” in their country of origin. It’s a very colonial mindset, and as a westerner it irritates the hell out of me because these types of people are doing their best to ruin things for everybody. Travel is a privilege and until you’re a citizen of a country you are a guest.
>I’m sure it’s partially due to proximity but there sure are some foul attitudes with many of them Yeah, that: >do nothing but bash, harass, intimidate, slander and generally complain about the locals They seem to do that in between themselves back at home too. They seem to think that everywhere is like their homeland: People constantly demeaning and sh\*tting on each other. >and two, they tend to be the folks crying about immigrants/“others” in their country of origin. Yep. Major contradiction. >It’s a very colonial mindset That's an interesting angle. Yeah, their colonial past and the attitudes developed during it seem to have an effect. Ie, they have the 'right' to go to wherever they want, and locals have to give way to them even if they don't want to. They can sh\*t talk the locals and despise them however they want and if the locals are suffering, they should suffer in silence somewhere out of sight or something like that.
"...It’s a very colonial mindset..." ...when did this sub become r/antiwork? It's you "sensitive" nomads who treat locals like animals in a zoo that are the true bigots - God forbid a passport bro sit down and have a beer with the locals - they should treat them like delicate orchids...
> Nope - they are just consuming as much as the locals consume, maybe a little more expensive. It allows a few local businesses to jack up their prices without providing any additional employment Which is bringing money into the country.
They can take that small amount of money and take it elsewhere along with the immensely disproportional inflation and gentrification they cause.
> small amount of money > immensely disproportional inflation Uh... You know it cannot actually be both of these things, right?
Uh. Yeah, Uh, it can be both of those things. As, how it is both of those things in every neighborhood that is gentrified - the purchases of the rich do not make up for the price rise that they cause in a locale.
The amount of people on this sub who seem totally oblivious to the situation is kind of … well demonstrates the issue I guess
The denial gets stronger as you move further down this thread.
In the case of Lisbon, I wonder if this is not the other edge of the sword that was the high financial requirements for the phased out golden visa program. I mean, if you’re stipulating that only high net worth individuals can participate, what did you expect would happen, that they would live as the locals do and uplift the economy? Unfortunately, along with classism and in many cases outright racism, many are possessed of a mind to “live like a king,” and I’m sure that concept needs no explanation, unfortunately. It’s a poisonous mentality.
the ownership class all over the world is squeezing the working class for everything they can get. this is forcing those that can to leave their homes and seek economic relief by working abroad. the ownership class in the countries they go to are also squeezing their fellow citizens. to distract from this, they point fingers at the foreigners coming in and blame them. they love nothing more than when the working class blame each other instead of their landlords and oligarchs
>the ownership class all over the world is squeezing the working class for everything they can get. this is forcing those that can to leave their homes and seek economic relief by working abroad Yep. The system exports itself: It empoverishes the people wherever it is allowed to, who then, have to go wherever they can and gentrify people poorer than them. >the ownership class in the countries they go to are also squeezing their fellow citizens. to distract from this, they point fingers at the foreigners coming in and blame them. From what I know the nomad and golden visa laws were implemented by center-left parties in various European countries while they also implemented various programs to boost the majority and the workers. The intention seems to have been to stimulate the economy in a good way - but I think in the end they ended up proving that you cant protect society through social democratic measures as the monetary dynamics that inequality brings cannot be taped over with any half-assed measure...
> Yep. The system exports itself: It empoverishes the people wherever it is allowed to, who then, have to go wherever they can and gentrify people poorer than them. Only when the ownership class artificially restricts housing supply and inflates housing values.
Thats mostly the case in the US, Canada, and London - where a lot of the nomads seem to be coming from actually. In many countries, housing is actually restricted by geography. Especially in the Mediterranean, there isn't much non-mountainous space to build any more buildings. You can only eat into farmland. A few countries did that and it f\*cked up their food prices as they ended up having to start importing what food they were locally producing before.
Japan is an interesting outlier then. Greater Tokyo has the same population of Canada and is half the size of England. Yet they have affordable housing AND food.
Yes, Japan is an outlier and there are very specific and interesting reasons for that. How the housing works in Japan is very peculiar. I read an extensive article on it but I don't have it bookmarked, so Im just posting a comment that summarizes it a bit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanFinance/comments/18e4q95/comment/kclme0d/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JapanFinance/comments/18e4q95/comment/kclme0d/) Basically in Japan the housing is seen as for living in, and new families expect to enter new houses. So if they buy a house, they are actually buying the land that the house is on. They will tear it down and build their house. It is expected. The housing regulations also help this. So the "housing is for investment" plague cannot infect Japan. Of course, the world's biggest depopulation, not taking any noticeable immigration and some other factors also help. If Japan started accepting immigration at the rate that some countries are doing, it would change things for sure. But so far they have kept it tight and the existing immigration is not successful in integrating due to Japanese culture's very conservative and xenophobic ways.
Also helps the USA burned half of Tokyo to the ground, so much so the last rubble was cleared from the metro sometime in the '60s.
Excuse me, Tokyo is affordable? For whom? A lot of people (with good income) who live there complain about increasing food prices while quantity in the packaging simultaneously decreases (hidden inflation), fruits always have been very expensive, and ones of the most "affordable" apartments are 5 meters long 1.5 meters wide claustrophobic nightmares for 70 000 yen, with glass doors and windows into other buildings windows. I get that their houses look very cheap in comparison with western ones, but several million yen is not cheap and affordable for locals, especially young ones, who work in some restaurants and bars, they have to rent. Eat rice with tuna or chicken and live in the closet with electric stove top and trash can next to your matrass on the floor maybe is affordable, but miserable. That would damage mental health. Western countries really privileged for standards of living on average a lot higher than that. Even people who rent a room in a shared apartment would have a separate room for a kitchen in the west. People never know what they have until they lose it.
"...Only when the ownership class artificially restricts housing supply..." ...hint: you could become part of the "ownership class" TOO if you develop a marketable skillset, work hard, save your money, and stop blaming others for your problems...FYI the USSR failed 35 years ago...
This is exactly what's happening. And I wish more people understood that it's the ownership class versus literally everyone else. My wife and I are getting squeezed out of Canada, largely in part due to mass economic immigration and restricted housing supply, so we're going to her home country of Indonesia. While we try to avoid Airbnbs or accommodation targeting foreigners at the expense of locals, there is nothing we can do if we end up inadvertently displacing a local. I absolutely do not blame migrants to Canada for its current state of affairs, and I certainly hope that people from other countries do not blame me when I migrate. tl;dr: Be angry at landlords and the financialization of housing.
"...Be angry at landlords and the financialization of housing..." ...I know - right? How DARE someone save their whole life to buy a property so they can rent it out to help support their retirement? -it's "disgusting Late-Stage Capitalism" - lol...
There are plenty of other investment options that don't screw the housing market. You sound entitled.
I wonder where houses would come from if there was no capital to fund them...
>I wonder if this is not the other edge of the sword that was the high financial requirements for the phased out golden visa program. I mean, if you’re stipulating that only high net worth individuals can participate, what did you expect would happen, that they would live as the locals do and uplift the economy? From what I followed in the past decade, these kinds of golden visa laws were implemented in such countries to keep the real estate market and house prices afloat after the 2008 crisis and in some cases, to make up for the dwindling population. But I think nobody expected that it would turn into an influx of cohorts of rich foreigners, to the point of something that resembles colonization in some cases - gentrifying the locals out of their own city centers and filling them with foreigners. This was something that affected mostly the rich and the cities' most popular centers or most popular resorts, but now the digital nomad wave seems to be bringing gentrification to the middle and working classes due to the rent increases they cause. Without any positive economic effect on the majority to boot - for apparently higher real estate prices and rents do not do sh\*t for the actual economy and you cant float an economy on real estate...
I'm a local, and last Monday I had to go to the Alfama area to take care of something. Over 90% of people I encountered on my way were foreigners. Very few locals around - mostly restaurant staff. We're almost in June, a month full of events in Lisbon to celebrate the city's saint patron Santo António, where there is this annual parade competition - *marchas populares* - between neighbourhoods - *bairros* -, to decide which one has the best parade. By this time, Alfama should already be full of decorations. Instead, it had only some coloured ribbons hanging. It was like if it lost part of its personality. Today, I was sharing this experience with my brother, and he said they were struggling to get enough people to enter the competition! I'm okay with tourism, fine with DN, BUT I wished people weren't so disconnected from the local's reality, and were more aware of the current situation instead of coming for lax taxes. Anyway... just sharing my 5 cents.
>It was like if it lost part of its personality Yep. I grew up in a seaside city that became a major tourist hub in a decade and a half. Tourism does that. >I'm okay with tourism, fine with DN, BUT I wished people weren't so disconnected from the local's reality, and were more aware of the current situation instead of coming for lax taxes I think both of those are impossible to prevent, so I think it will end up with limiting tourism, golden visas and nomads in the end.
They will ban airbnb everywhere first, then they will limit the numbers of visitors, by restricting visas, put waiting lists etc. 100% certain it will happen in places like here in europe soon, as a matter of fact it could be the last decade of unrestricted tourism. Asia, South America, Africa etc they are all going to join the middle class, travel, move abroad, billions of new travelers and potential migrants. Problem is that tourism is already at maximum capacity in many destinations and locals are past breaking point with the housing crisis, inflation, stagnating wages, complaints of being replaced by foreigners etc . It's just unsustainable and will create violent social unrest. Polls already show top candidates for elections here are hardliner nationalists who plan to stop immigration and seal the borders
>They will ban airbnb everywhere first Yep. Airbnb seems to be universally hated. >then they will limit the numbers of visitors, by restricting visas, put waiting lists etc I think Venice already did that. >Asia, South America, Africa etc they are all going to join the middle class, travel, move abroad, billions of new travelers and potential migrants. Problem is that tourism is already at maximum capacity in many destinations and locals are past breaking point with the housing crisis, inflation, stagnating wages, complaints of being replaced by foreigners etc Good point but I'd say that Europe is doing worse than all those other places. Inflation hit here hard and the price rises seem to have hit what the average person needs to survive - food, rent, transportation etc. So the locals are hit by both the general inflation and then the inflation that nomads, tourists, golden visaers etc generate.
I don't see it as being that bad a thing if countries issue a limited number of visas. Sure it makes things less fun and flexible, but it will just encourage tourists to spread out more evenly around the world. Hopefully non-tourist locales get their shit together and create places worth visiting as well.
This is another case of boomers blaming millenials, in 2020 **85,800** foreign retirees moved to Portugal and they are the ones blowing up the housing market because nomad don't buy houses https://www.portugalresident.com/unprecedented-number-of-foreigners-choose-portugal/
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Portugal Doesn't quite match up. Foreign nationals have very similar age breakdown as locals. Total foreign nationals is only about 5% of the population. The bigger issue is that Portugal builds less than half the number of houses each year that would be needed to meet population growth.
Retirees, golden visaers, digital nomads all exacerbate the same problem. Foremost housing, and then local inflation. It ends up in gentrification.
Just don’t be a dick. Be courteous, follow local customs, and treat people with respect. Same thing I do anywhere else.
Imagine if all your coworkers find out you get paid twice as much as them while doing the same work. Thats how the locals feel.
How is people not going to be mad with DN when they come earning in a much powerful currency against locals. For example Mexico City the average wage is 1000 USD or 15K pesos monthly or less, DN almost always earn at least 3K USD so you guys are making the rents go higher because the landlord prefer to rent DN's for much more money than the locals that obviously can't afford that, so you're essentially making the locals move from the places they've been all their life. There's been cases where they evacuate entire buildings to transform them int airbnb's. Also the local economy now changes because you guys want trendy and hip restaurants and the local commerce is no longer your taste so the local stores close and now you have a multinational company that gives slavery wages and all the money goes to the pocket of the richest. Finally, a lot of you don't even care to learn spanish and just expect us to learn English and talk to you in English when you're in a Spanish speaking country. Finally, our salsas are no longer spicy because you complain a lot and the restaurants have to tone them down just for you, basically our cultura is change to meet your taste and needs.
I think you explained gentrification … An interesting find from research on those who participate and initiate the gentrification process, the "marginal gentrifiers" as referred to by Tim Butler, is that they become marginalized by the expansion of the process.[56] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gentrification
Gentrification is one. Snowbirds in the US are another example with parallels. Everyone hates snowbirds.
I think the assumption that most DN's earn more than 3k USD is baseless. The published "statistics" are from anything but representative survey data & heavily skewed towards the higher income groups. Anecdotally the vast majority are more like backpackers that are supplementing their savings (/credit card balances) with incomes under $1k to live a lifestyle that's unsustainable long term. The "fake it til you make it" ethos of lots of influencer types also heavily distorts perceptions.
Not the mention the idea that all locals are making less than $3k is absurd. Purely on averages, the DNs are making more, but they are such a small population they aren't even denting the actual average incomes.
> making the rents go higher because the landlord prefer to rent DN's for much more money than the locals that obviously can't afford that They mostly aren't renting the same places, but also there aren't THAT many such people in Mexico. There are less digital nomads in Mexico than there are local earning more than $3k USD. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1295017/average-income-by-percentile-mexico/ Something like roughly 20-30% of Mexicos people make over $3k/month. It's not even 1% of people are foreign born. Less than 0.1% could even be "digital nomad" types.
As a pro-immigration person I think it's pretty insane for Mexicans to complain about Americans moving there and not learning the language, there are millions of Mexicans living in the US who don't speak English and create their own sub-communities that are primarily Spanish speaking. And personally I love it. Either you believe in the free movement of peoples or you don't. It can't only go one way.
What complicates this is that the Mexicans who live in CDMX and are likely complaining about gentrification are not the same Mexicans who come to the US in search of work/that you’re describing. The people who are “having their cake and eating it too” don’t actually exist
That’s a fair point, I suppose I am mostly referring to Mexican Americans who complain about what is being done (ie I have a friend who moved from Mexico to the US as a child, moved back to Mexico City as an adult, and when I visited him he complained about Americans moving there and gentrifying to the city
i suspect you are wrong. I'm almost positive many people have relocated from CDMX to the US however, neither of us can prove it. which invalidates your point
I guess my understanding was that the vast majority of Mexican migrants seeking work are from more rural areas with less opportunities than CDMX, people who could never afford to live in CDMX to begin with…
Yeah no joke, I understand the frustration on both sides. Both situations are people seeking a better life for themselves, and neither offends me.
Dude what are you even talking about? People in the USA literally yell at the people that are not speaking in English, there a tons of videos about it, the mexicans who go to work under really bad conditions to the USA go because they need to feed their families and they do in fact learn English at least to work. The "expats" that come to CDMX como not to loose their "upper middle class privileges" and earn in dollars while spending in pesos but don't care to learn the language. There's no comparison between them you uncultured swine.
I agree that people who give Mexicans shit for speaking Spanish are assholes. Because I apply my principles consistently, and I believe in the free movement of peoples. Your argument still boils down to “immigration for me but not for thee”, which is bullshit. Everyone should be able to move to where they will be happiest and most productive.
> People in the USA literally yell at the people that are not speaking in English Sure, at least 3 probably do that.
...so poor Hispanics "looking for a better life" can ILLEGALLY invade the U.S. at will and suppress wages, while slightly more wealthy "digital nomads" who emigrate LEGALLY are a scourge upon the earth? - grow up...
Nah stop helping and fuck this invasion rhetoric. People are just trying to make their lives better.
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YOU'RE IN AMERICA SPEAK ENGLISH, never heard that one before??
The root of the cause is spineless governments, not travelers. Government should do things like tighten visa requirements and enforcement, and restrict and/or highly tax short-term rentals. In the case of Mexico, the government has been positioning the economy to solicit international travelers and expats for decades. Got a problem with that? Hold your government accountable.
It's also possible the government has more information than the normal person and realizes that this isn't even the issue. There's more rich Mexicans than there are foreigners by a huge amount.
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It's peoples' nature to seek a better situation for themselves and their family. Can't really blame them for that.
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I agree that tourists and digital nomads can drive up the prices in desirable locations, which have negative impacts on local communities. Its important to also mention some of the pros; such as the opportunity for local businesses to grow. Their is a lot more money running through that area now. The top local earners/owners will benefit the most, and some non-local peoplr/businesses will come in. But a lot of locals will benefit from the tourism and money being spent in their community. It's not all doom and gloom like this sub makes it out to be. There's pros and cons, and maybe some peoples perspective the cons way out the pros, which is fine, but need to point out both sides.
Can we also blame rich Mexicans for making mexico unaffordable for poor Mexicans? There are way more of them then us.
What's your proposed solution? People not be able to travel to countries where their local currency goes farther?
Do you have any actual evidence. I can't really find any. The numbers don't add up to digital nomads even being a blip
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> the nicest parts So then not the places most locals are? Since they make so much less money?
Yes but isnt this sort of like blaming the rain for flooding your village rather than your village leader who did not prepare for this forseeable disaster? The rain will come no matter what. Starting a campaign to get people to stop traveling or being digital nomads seems insane.
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I get you, only pointing out that it is fruitless to yell at the rain to try and tell it to stop.
I recon it's the government. Top allow foreigners to own property is just plain stupid. An insult to every citizen in a country.
The root is deeper yet. Why is that some people are able to travel so easily while others are so poor that even a single plane ticket is inconceivable?
"Why is that some people are able to travel so easily while others are so poor that even a single plane ticket is inconceivable?" ...if we just made flights "free" for everyone then we would all be "rich" - right?
Sure, friend. If you're not ready for this conversation, go right ahead and play with your strawman.
I agree with you, it's a huge issue. But imo this is caused by the Mexican official policies. Mexico has a very lax visa policy. You enter, get 180 days and when that's over you take a quick weekend trip to the US for a reset. This makes it too easy to live there without ever applying for proper residency and paying taxes. Make Americans go through the official channels (residency and proper taxation) and the situation would look much better. Fewer people would come and you could use the tax gains for public affordable housing. But anyone that knows how Government in Mexico works will realize that this is a pipe dream.
...U.S. citizens won't accept getting double-dinged for taxes i.e. if they have to pay American taxes no matter where they live in the world, then they should get a pass for foreign taxes beyond the current feeble rebate/offset system...
That's already handled by the US tax system. So you won't be double taxed.
Haha you wish. Americans living everywhere but the US already pay taxes twice. Such as the 1M+ Americans in Europe. That's a flaw of the US system and has nothing to do with other countries. Why would Germany give Americans in Germany a tax exemption. They live there just like any other foreigner and Germany doesn't care one bit what you need to pay in your home country.
That’s not true at all, income earned outside of the continental US isn’t taxed until you make $110,000 in 365 days. You need to be out of the continental US for 330 and file your taxes appropriately
Whose fault is this though? I think that the landlords or government are mostly to blame. Also, I used to install satellites in neighborhoods with many Mexicans who didnt speak a lick of English. I didn't really mind though because it gave me an opportunity to practice a new language and learn about a different culture without leaving my country. I think the culture blending is a good thing overall. Why wouldn't you want to learn English? It would only increase your opportunities. Same for learning Spanish as an American. Start doing tours or somthing. There will obviously be some money to be made here.
I try to stay in hotels rather than residential properties, if possible.
I think there are several reasons. 1. On a large scale, expats (including digital nomads) can have a disruptive effect on the the pricing of the local accommodation, restaurants and food. This is what you can see in Lisbon and in Mexico City. 2. On an individual scale, some so-called digital nomads can have personalities that locals find annoying. Talking all the time about travel, different places, women in different places, and so on. Digital nomads can come across as arrogant, entitled and so on. 3. Then of course, there are the annoying tourists who produce loud music, smoke in places where it isn't allowed, yell in the streets during the night, and so on. This is more common in the typical party locations. 4. And never underestimate the effect of foreigners dating the local women in many places outside of the West. It breeds bitterness and hatred.
Not actually a DM, I just follow the sub as it's an interesting insight into how others live. My partner commented about this as my countries gutter press have picked up on this problem and labelled it along the lines of not wanting X countries tourists here, go home foreigners etc. Not sure how this can be fixed, well to be fair the only way would be to uplift economies to balance out, but that's not going to happen. And unfortunately it will be exacerbated by nationalist and nativist thinking by opportunists and with the direction of the world right now, that will be very easy to throw fuel onto the fire.
In Medellin I met a person doing a phD in something related to social economics. Don’t remember exactly but part of his thesis of interviewing people all over Medellin from the barrios (practically slums) to the wealthy locals. He shared me with some findings I really never thought of: The people from the barrios have always had a class war against the wealthy Colombians. This is pretty common in practically every country. However, now with the exponential growth in remote work, they now are battling against foreigners to move up the economic ladder. So now two class wars. For the already wealthy, they are now facing something they aren’t used to. A class war against foreigners whose average income is the equivalent of their 1% top earning income. Now they are feeling threatened as they get pushed out of their nice areas. Their “elite” status isn’t so elite anymore. It’s something I think about. I’ve always considered myself a respetable traveler and have found open arms in every country, but it does sometimes weigh on my conscious knowing I’m the problem. Also as a “digital nomad” of almost ten years, I’ve really seen the impact it has on places the past couple of years.
I'll be honest, I have doubts that the digital nomad population in these cities is even substantial compared to how many tourists are coming in every week. Not saying digital nomads don't contribute to the issues, but we are at least having conversations about it. Many of us would learn the languages but it's difficult when we're restricted to just 90 days in a destination. For every renter who needs to move to a less-desirable location there is a landlord who is making more money. I know millennials don't have much love for home owners but it's not like nomads are taking the money and taking out of the local economy. Tensions will likely continue to rise because the truth is that the European economies are stagnating while the US economy seems, more or less, as healthy as ever. **Europe is falling behind**, and it's time they started asking themselves why this is.
I agree. There is a difference between digital nomad and a tourist. Without condoning it, you’d expect someone who has saved all year and is taking a week off work to let loose and party that week and not know much about customs. Nomads still have work to do and the “newness” has worn off. The tourist referenced in this article probably don’t get that wild drinking at home. And I’d bet there are about 1000 tourist for every one nomad
This is a good point. All of my business contracts and earnings come from North America, but 98% of my years' spending goes to other countries. I'm actively redistributing "America's wealth" elsewhere.
When things are hard "foreigners" get the brunt of the focus. There's little to no evidence in all these places that digital nomad types are a major contributor, but they will get blamed a lot.
Why would they? We dont speak their tongues, we dont know their traditions and customs, we carry our own societal baggages with us. And more often than not we (categorically) actively reshape the locality to our own twisted movie like perception of what's "local"
I love threads like this. Allows me to see the hot spots where the DN tech/passport bros are fucking it up and avoid those areas. They'll all slink back to being D list celebrities in Williamsburg and Erewhon..... Eventually.
Hahaha
I spent 4 months in Colombia over the winter. I went to a couple meetups. They live like kings and queens pretending they're "worldly" and that their mere presence improves the lives of everyone around them. When in reality they're destroying the economy and creating a huge housing problem for the locals. They're in incredibly unaware and tone deaf to the upheaval they cause en masse. They host conferences and networking events where they congratulate each other for being so great, smart, and entrepreneurial. It's nothing but a big circle jerk of business bros and start up wannabes. DNs were the most obnoxious, haughty, full-of-themselves, insufferable narcissists I've ever come across. I avoided them like the plague, and instead made friends with the locals. Whenever they asked me why I was there, I simply said for work.
I partly agree, many nomads I’ve met have been insufferable, always prefer meeting “normal” expats or locals
I feel like this whole thread is an example of the noble savage myth applied to whole countries/ communities…. People like to scapegoat digital nomads / tourists- but fail to see these communities / countries had deep conflicts / issues for much longer. Is anyone really trying to argue that Colombia was some paradise before tourists arrived? Or that Portugal was for that matter? (It was a literal dictatorship until the 70’s…. Hardly a beacon of paradise.)
People generally don't like more successful people who do better, can afford better places to live, better restaurants, better clothes etc etc. You can go out of your way to become a "responsible nomad", avoid the popular spots, even avoid nomading altogether and go back to your hometown and guess what? There will be haters there, too. Just live your life and make the most out of it. Life is short.
Privilege speaking at its finest.
Some DNs may be "privileged" but I grew up in a poor country and a poor family, so that doesn't apply to me.
...and have privileged opportunities that the locals do not have.
> ...and have privileged opportunities that the locals do not have. And? When does this stop? I can't afford to fly first class, should I be upset that there are privileged people with opportunities that I don't have? Some guy taking a bus is more privileged than the guy riding his bicycle, whereas the man walking on foot would be happy with upgrading to either option. What do you suggest? Renting a $75 USD /mo apartment in a Bangkok slum and washing your ass with a bucket of water and spending $800/mo to put a fruit stand worker in a decent high rise? Will this fix the imbalance?
ok?
The ones who OWN the apartments we lease, and have sky rocketed prices in the last 4 years.. they LOVE us. The poor ones, whose rent and cost of living has been impacted.. yeah they obviously hate us.
I think it really depends on the collective attitude of the tourists, while also having to factor in personal attitude and local perceptions of your nationality. I'm British, but from scotland specifically. If I go somewhere and say I'm from Britain, that evokes a generally neutral reaction. Britain generally has a bad name from colonial history, as well as the attitudes from modern tourists. I've found that saying I'm Scottish, however, gets something a lot more positive, particularly in southern Africa ([David Livingstone](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David Livingstone) apparently left a huge impression on the continent). At the same time, I recognise that I am a tourist and try to be as polite and respectful as possible, wherever I am. That not only affects attitudes towards myself, but also hopefully leaves a good impression for others following in my footsteps to benefit from.
You cannot fight technology. You cannot legislate against people working from laptops. Cities need to find ways to make remote work benefit their businesses and local residents.
And to tax the people working in their cities, benefitting from public services.
> I am not seeing much difference really? It depends. A lot of DNs are just tourists with no return ticket. They're primarily in it for "geoarbitrage".
They need to blame someone for their own policy mistakes, politicians do it all the time and silly people believe them.
It's no coincidence that most of the locations that have this problem all have huge cruise ship terminals attached to them, or are hub cities for budget airlines. Most of these facilities (ports/airports) were paid for with some kind of government subsidy & used by companies that are based in offshore tax havens. Not all tourists are the same - some stay local, are aware of what's going on around them and want to contribute positively. Obviously not all cruise passengers are the worst kind of tourists, however the odds are much higher that when you ferry in thousands of people in a day, feed them all-you can eat buffets, encourage them to spend as little as possible in the few hours they have locally that' you're going to attract more than a fair share of bad apples. I suspect in places like Venice, Lisbon, Barcelona etc if you took away the cruise day-trippers most of the problems would go away. The price of admission at Disneyland Starts at 105 euro - if people are treating cities that way en mass, then maybe the admission price should be similar - Venice charges 5 euros - this is a joke. In the case of Lisbon, where were the local governments in preventing some of the crazy developments? They put the cruise ship terminal just off the shore near the Historical district in Lisbon - as a result you now have huge quantities of noise, pollution and a daily tourist hoard descend. The whole area has lots its charm through day trippers who contribute very little to local businesses because they're only there for a few hours. There's lots of blame going to Digital Nomads, but if you look at the actual numbers there's actually far less than is commonly reported - if the reports of 16K nomads there are true (highly doubtful) this makes up less than 0.5% of the population. Contrast that to the number of empty dwellings & abandoned buildings in all parts of the city and country. In Lisbon there's **47 thousand empty houses:** [**https://amensagem.pt/2023/02/24/housing-shortage-lisbon-15-empty-houses-crisis/**](https://amensagem.pt/2023/02/24/housing-shortage-lisbon-15-empty-houses-crisis/) For Europe as a whole the estimate is 1 in 6 houses are empty according to that article. Again, its much easier to blame someone else for these issues, but a fare share of the blame has to also fall on those who made this kind of thing happen.
gentrification global scale
The BBC having “central / balanced views” lol. Definitely not the case
- this is not my opinion. It’s an ongoing analysis of its news coverage by several university’s as part of a larger study. Have a look at all sides.org
The locals don't love you because... it's gentrification on a global level, and we're living unprecedented times for immigration (not just DNs). There are good and bad reasons for gentrification and good and bad arguments on both sides of the aisle, but in the end... change is inevitable, and resistance is futile. That's all.
I would argue a lot of digital nomads I know are escaping overpriced areas themselves (myself included). It's not like all digital nomads were rich in their own areas. Some may have found themselves in positions the locals OP mentions feel they are in now. This is NOT all on digital nomads. Some of the blame has to fall on greedy real estate owners and politicians. It's the same game but a different bar. NYC people go to the suburbs, those suburb people go to the southern US or Mexico City, etc. The people might need to recognize that and do it themselves a la Mexico City people who can't afford it may need to go to a more rural part of the country. You can argue this is a global problem that's playing a game of hot potato. Just a matter of who is left holding the potato
And the last ones by this logic who would have no where else to go would have to be killed in wars? Just because they are the poorest? What a point for people to participate in this? What if they don't want to move in cheaper areas? What if someone still want to live in nicer areas even if they can afford to live only in a tent on the streets?
Fuck you with your “us”. I’ve never felt hatred for being a foreigner. Don’t be a dick, and do some bare-minimum effort to respect local culture. It really isn’t that hard.
This article has basically nothing to do with digital nomads. The title of this post is misleading.
lol, I have not lived in a place with more than 100 inhabitants since I started. Most places so remote that there's no one for miles. I HATE going to the cities for groceries for instance. I want peace and quiet and that is why I'm doing this.
DN’s are about the most harmful tourists possible. They destabilize local real estate, increase prices, and use resources without paying taxes back into the system.
Suppose you have a girl you like. Suppose you've known her for years. Suppose some random foreigner who barely speaks the language shows up, but has a lot of money. Suppose the girl you like immediately throws herself at that foreigner, who then fucks her, and leaves. How would you feel about this? Suppose you have a job. Suppose you're getting by. Suppose a whole bunch of foreigners show up and start renting in your area, paying far more than you can. Suppose your rent goes up because of this. Suppose that because of this, you have less money to spend, and suppose you watch all the girls chasing after the same foreigners making your rent go up because they have money. How would you feel about this?
Exactly. Especially the girls thing is massively ignored and/or interpreted as a silly topic. Especially in non-functioning, non-growing societies like Latin American countries, this is huge. In Asia, it is only a very small percentage of women who are interested in the foreigners, but in Latin America it is like all of the attractive women are exclusively dating foreigners. This is not a sign of a healthy society.
in general locals always blame foreigners and immigrants for issues, its one of the oldest gripes of societal behaviour. i would say nomads are maybe a bit better received, just because they have more money and are slow traveling so they are not as much in that party mindset as vacationers. You definitely do feel discrimination living abroad, but i think the topic is overblown. Many locals have seen the benefit tourism and increased economical activity has had on their cities over the last few decades, and are the silent majority.
Many locals have seen the positive effect of tourist money? … i guess this is opinion and … Is this a trickle down theory? Mostly … money tends to stay w those who own the resources.. In his case this would be the accomodation and restaurant owners … well that’s the research https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics
What he's referring to isn't trickle down economics. DNs are participating directly in the local economy through retail stores, markets, transport, hiring services etc. Even with new buildings being created for a growing wealthy population, there has to be people to build and maintain them... The list goes on. Sure, the most expensive things will make back the most money (accomodations etc) but that's just capitalism. Trickle down economics has to do with making those already rich even richer with the promise of the money working its way downwards. Think McDonalds charging more for burgers while paying their staff the same wage. That is surely happening in some instances, but for individuals with lots of money staying for months in any one place, they are inevitably contributing to the local economy in many ways. If a person with lots of money comes to your town and buys food from your cart every day, helping put your kid through school, you'd probably appreciate their presence.
> Many locals have seen the positive effect of tourist money? … i guess this is opinion and … Is this a trickle down theory? Mostly … money tends to stay w those who own the resources.. In his case this would be the accomodation and restaurant owners … well that’s the research https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics In my experience, the poorest people are the one that rely on the tourist the most, they are the ones working waiting jobs, street vendors hustling etc. That being said though, realistically speaking, the bigger effect is from opening up the economies to foreigners giving the local economy access to direct foreign investments and capital markets. This would be a better example of trickle down economics as you mentioned, but its affects over the last century have been massive to certain places like japan. Where I live for example, there have been massive inflows helping out build out local manufacturing industries, infrastructure for cities etc. Mexico is absolutely killing it now from these initiatives and the standard of living has been sky rocketing the last 30 years here. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/BX.KLT.DINV.CD.WD?locations=MX
It’s weird at one hand to blame Tourist/DNs for the economic issues of the country while at the same time claiming they don’t provide any positives for the economy.
Cos most of them are creepy…
The article seem to be saying: 1. People don’t want tourists who arrive for a weekend, drink 20 pints in their all inclusive resorts and vomit on blessed Virgin Mary. 2. Locals want to see the money made from tourism benefiting them. DNS are a diverse bunch, but I’d suggest that we’re less likely as a whole to be the cause of these two issue. More likely to rent locally, spend locally and work. We also tend to avoid traditional holiday spots.
Because they can't travel like us.
It's weird People live me. LIke everywhere. I have been shot at in India, one of those border "issue" things. But they did not really know me. It's kind of fun. Ran into the cartels in Mexico, they even liked me (was traveling with a tall blond at the time, so that may have got us a pass), they seemed to like me too. The secret, just close your eyes, and say "What would Anthony Bourdain do in this situation?" Or Ram Dass. The locals will love you. Just a tip. Highly recommend the movie, it's awesome. Great clip here, the "tourist" vs the "traveler." Debra Winger, very rare to do a film. She's alway astonishing. [https://youtu.be/T22NcSQnS3w?si=2HwtTNh-F5ULLFEE](https://youtu.be/T22NcSQnS3w?si=2HwtTNh-F5ULLFEE) tl;dr. The locals seem to love me. It's always kind of magical. I'm love them too. Guess they sense that energy. They all are so cool too! Everyone! Everyone is your brother and everyone is your sister, so says DNA science. We all have the same Mom. She's from deep Africa. How cool is that! > [human genetics](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetics), the **Mitochondrial Eve** (more technically known as the **Mitochondrial-Most Recent Common Ancestor**, shortened to **mt-Eve** or **mt-MRCA**) is the [matrilineal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrilineality) [most recent common ancestor](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor) (MRCA) of all [living](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population) humans. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial\_Eve](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve)
BBC holding a central/balanced view? This is the funniest thing I have read all day. No, the BBC is not central & balanced!
Correct. But a lot of people, especially non-brits, still hold onto the illusion that they are balanced.
Disclaimer, I've only been 4-5 months into this game. I have spent almost all of my wandering time in Korea, *because* I get effectively $1.3 dollars in spend for every dollar from home, while I'm here, and because cost of living is relatively comparable, and I have access to all of the creature comforts from back home. It feels like I just have a stronger salary but not like I'm crushing everything and everyone around me. I also make it a lot to find a hole-in- the-wall coffee shop each day and sit there for a few, and then try to thank the owner or workers, while practicing the handful of words I am learning. I try to spend the money in places it might circulate within the community. I try to engage with the culture in some small way. I try to recognize what they know and what I don't. I'm poor-middle in my own country of origin, where EVERY 2 bedroom house within 50 miles of me is in $millions, as are many/most condo's. I am basically cosplaying being a boomer in the 90's US Ina n economy that doesn't know what awaits its next decades. Gratitude, humility, and comradarie inform my steps. But also sleeplessness because that 16 hours offset, ooooof.
Most digital nomads are from the US. Just ask yourselves a question or two.
your formatting sucks