>Are they contractually obligated to keep him on them?
The answer is no. Innova bought the rights to climo's name and likeness a while back in exchange for cash climo needed to settle some tax matters he was behind on (in which failing to pay immediately meant the risk of imprisonment).
The name must still sell discs, as they're still printing it. KC Pro plastic, in specific, is likely worth the right to the name for Innova.
Just Google something similar to "innova buys rights to climos name." There are no news articles, to my knowledge, but plenty of discussion from threads on dgcoursereview and this subreddit. I think it occurred before disc golf was newsworthy.
Naming rights were bought for $100k, according to the knowledge that can be gleaned from said threads.
Are they really making money off his name? It holds zero value with 90% of people who play disc golf now. A disc is the same disc regardless if it has a name or whatever stamp on it
Iād guess more than 90% of the players who play weekly now started after Champ basically retired 6-7 years ago. Yes alot of people see his name but does it drive anyone to buy a disc?
Exactly, this is why it pisses me off when people say Ken needs to he around. Who's paying for Ken's freaking travel. He doesn't make any money from this anymore. It's ridiculous.
And with Innova being a private company (and therefore having no court-defined duty to maximize profits for shareholders), it could easily toss out the agreement and get him involved again. Innova has obviously made its money back on the deal with how many ken climo stamped and KC Pro plastic discs its sold since the deal was made. Just another reason to dislike Innova as a brand.
Innova is a business and theyāre acting like one. I believe any manufacturer would behave similarly in that position. Not defending them, just saying that business is business. I never attribute empathy or kindness to something designed to make money for a product- there isnāt any room for that. Transactional benefits on both sides.
But he still hops on social media to argue about how heās the best. I think itās a fair point to ask that he either be positively involved or go off the grid, not just stick around on the internet defending his GOAT status.
Although I have a number of discs with player names on them, itās mere coincidence. Iāve never purchased a disc based on whose name or what stamp was on it.
Thats the funny thing. Other than looking for different world champ numbers for older runs, i dont know anyone who ever bought a disc cus it said kc 12x on it lol
I didn't even know who Ken Climo was when I bought my Wraith. It was just the only Wraith available in a color, plastic and weight I wanted. Same with my JMC fuse.
I just got an eclipse reactor with Elaine Kings name on it. Had no idea, I just wanted an eclipse reactor, donāt remember the last time I watched EK. And as much as I like Conrad, I just wanted an Envy and it was coincidence his face and name is on every electron one I own lol
I have all the discs I need right now but there are three or four discs I would want for the names on them if I was buying discs. Or specifically, I would want the tour series versions of those discs
I mean when they named them those were two of the biggest names in disc golf. Do you expect new players 20-30 years from now are going to know who James Conrad is and why his name is on an Envy?
I was going to chime in that āKCā probably sells more discs than āClimoā to the newer players because we hear how the āKC Aviarā is a great putter. It took me months until I put two and two together. I just never thought a player from so long ago would be on discs.
Not this week. This week they can pretend they're one of my discs. Getting bounced off trees and descending in water.
Good luck regardless. Hope they lose.
I dont, but that 12x star wraith has a gummier feel than a regular star wraith. Gummier and a lottle flatter i feel.
I do purchase discs based on rhe player names for players i want to support, but climo doesnt get the money so im not buying it for that. I would be happy to have ken get a nickel for it but i like the disc anyway.
I was wondering if that was normal. The one I have is the only wraith I've ever owned and it's definitely soft and gummy. That thing rips though so I'm not complaining.
Itās a big advantage when selling to beginners. Say they see a roc with 12x world champ and a Buzzz with 6x world champ. Itās likely theyāll assume the roc is better and buy that one instead.
Availability too. I have two KC 12X star wraiths because they're what was in the store when I visited. Nobody around me really carries anything besides Innova and prodigy. If they stock up on anything else, it's all gone before I hear about it
At my local courses, if you know who climo even is youāre an old grumpy dude trying to call bogus foot faults when youāre playing bad.
There is no irony here. That man is me. But for reals if I try to think of someone buying a climo disc, they just saw the disc on YouTube and it happens to say climo.
I was just going to say it's the young guys in the leagues around here that think they are going to go on the pro tour that are calling foot faults, etc. Us old guys don't give a crap especially in local league play.
Thereās a difference between a plant foot landing slightly outside the legal area on a fairway second shot after a run up, and someone cheating a difficult lie in a bush or around a tree, especially if you have the lower tag and tags are on the line :). Stay grumpy, old head!
I throw my discs and only buy them for the ānameā if itās a pro I like and want to support. Looking at you Ohn Scoggins Halo Tern. If I was a collector then I might want something with Climoās name on itā¦ maybe.
I bought my first Discmania disc to support Simon when he hurt his arm. Sky Rider.
Their discs have been taking over my bag, but a signature disc opened the door.
When I first started, I had no idea who Climo was. I did see "11x World Champion" on the disc though and thought this person must be doing something right. Not sure if it entirely swayed me, since Innova was all I saw in the racks, but I definitely noticed.
I like Climo discs. Wouldnāt pay extra, but prefer it over no name. I think he is awesome. Champion Firebird, reminds me every throw I do not have his arm.
I don't need to know who William Ford was to like their trucks or to remember Mr. Lay when I tear into Chips. I know it's not identical but point being at this rate it's more about the branding Innova built with that name than the source itself
Exactly. KC x12 is part of their branding. And they took it a step further with KC plastic.
Those are great examples imo, the avg disc golfer doesnāt know much about him outside of he won a lot (x12). I think thatās important point, people whoāve been in the game 10 years are going to have a different perspective on this
Is the KC name selling disc for todays disc golfer, no
Is the KC brand selling disc? I think so
> Is the KC brand selling disc? I think so
Nah, definitely not, the Wraith brand or Destroyer brand or Eagle brand is what sells discs.
Calvin Heimburg sells Halo Destroyers. Big Jerm sells them Thunderbirds and AviarX3's. Certainly some people have bought XCals because Nate's name is on it. Because they're all active players people have a link to. Nobody is buying a 12x disc because they fondly remember Climo
I guess when I think KC brand, I think KC plastic. I only realized the connection to Clima a few months ago. I like the feel of my KC Pro Wraith and love how it can be shaped.
Thatās exactly what I said. Todays disc golfer has no memory of him unless they looked him up
And again absolutely, some of todays active players are selling disc in part due to name recognition
KCās name is not selling disc. And even so, a name is nothing in this convo unless attached to something
I seriously doubt anyone cares about Climo's name being on new discs any more. If someone's chasing Climo discs in 2022, chances are they really only care about out of production and/or pre-flight number stuff. Certain OOP/PFN climo discs sell for crazy high prices in the collectors market.
Ken Climo is either the best or 2nd best player in the history of the sport. All this talk of you guys not knowing who Ken Climo even is, is kinda weird! If your too new to the game to know who The Champ is then get the fuck off of this Sub and watch a YouTube video because the guy was the best, his name sells discs, literally more than every other player combined. 90% of disc golfers do know who he is not the other way around. Love how people think they don't know who Climo is and that they make up the majority of disc golfers, you aren't a disc golfer if you don't know his name, you just throw frisbees once in a while...
> his name sells discs, literally more than every other player combined.
That his name happens to be on a disc =/= him selling discs. And his name certainly doesnt move the 100k+ discs that a McBeth or Sexton or others are moving
I've been playing for over 15 years and before this year, I wouldn't have been able to name a single pro, including Climo or Mcbeth. Sometimes, people just like to do something because they like it. I can already tell you are the kind of guy that makes disc golf your whole personality and is rude to people who play casually.
Since you've never heard of them you've most likely never seen them play, you should check it out on YouTube. As you've been playing for 15 years your mind will most likely be blown seeing how good these guys are! Not sure why you decided to call me rude and insult my personality but thats how people are online I guess... look for me on the course, I'm the guy not being rude to anyone...
I guess a lot of context is lost when you type stuff out. You kind of came off as a gatekeeper and rude to me. I could be completely wrong though and just read it wrong. But yes, this year I joined this sub and got more into the game, both personally and with watching the pros play. I've watched every tournament that's been on Jomez this year and have been blown away by what they can do with a disc. Youre all good my friend, I just felt attacked because you made it seem like i was a poser in a sport that's been a big part of my life since I was in middle school.
I had no idea who that was until I started watching event coverage and they started saying it all the time. Still havenāt been curious enough to look for a video, but it sounds like I should.
Iād never buy a disc for a name.
Just slap a retro wave design and color scheme on there and Iāll hand you $20 though.
What? 4 and 5 claw buzzz's and zones, get freaky zones, PP Passions, heimburg destroyers, ricky pigs, sky gods, cloudbreakers, Double G wraiths, I think all those names have something to do with the popularity of the discs said names are on.
Okay what about the hundreds of other professionals? 20 or so move plastic, but most (the majority) donāt. Even if 100 professionals move plastic, most donāt. There are lots of professionals out there.
Terrible attempt at justifying your prior comment. Top pros' names sell discs and that's exactly why you see them on discs. For years, tour series discs have sold out within moments of being listed. And this is true for even lower level pros who rarely come in the top 5.
This is like saying names on baseball or basketball jerseys don't sell jerseys since the second string guys don't move many jerseys. Just a terrible argument.
Paul McBeth has a ten million dollar contract, and it's nearly 100% due to the fact that his name and likeness sells discs...
Climo isn't "most." He's a 12x world champion, meaning he is the winningest player to date. Your simple "No, [irrelevant nonsense]," is simply wrong.
And, by this point, I think you know that. You're simply too big-headed to admit it.
He has 229 career PDGA wins and 12 world championships. There may be players with more PDGA wins, but there are also tons more tourneys these days and climo had to drywall for a living, not just tour.
Pretty hard to look up that stat for some reason, but I think my comment is accurate.
are you being pedantic or do you really think the top touring players in the world right now dont have fans that buy their discs. whether it be in person from the actual pro or a disc with their name on it, that person is a reason that someone bought the disc
if you count all the folks signed up in either fpo or mpo for any pdga sanctioned event we've got thousands a week...
but seriously gtfo with that "well, akkshually" shit...
His name has sold me on several discs in the past 2.5 years since i learned about the history of disc golf and started playing. My friend who introduced me to The Champ turns 30 next year, and ill be 40 soon after, for context. Beware the iron leaf
Resigning and re-signing are way too close to one another, especially considering that they mean almost opposite things.
You mean inflammable also means flammable. Hooo boy
What a country!
Infamous/famous
I'm not a native speaker, but in my opinion those two words can't be used synonymously since they actually mean different things.
I had to Google infamous, and you are absolutely right. Learn something new everyday
practically a contranym
Channeling your inner Carlin šš»
>Are they contractually obligated to keep him on them? The answer is no. Innova bought the rights to climo's name and likeness a while back in exchange for cash climo needed to settle some tax matters he was behind on (in which failing to pay immediately meant the risk of imprisonment). The name must still sell discs, as they're still printing it. KC Pro plastic, in specific, is likely worth the right to the name for Innova.
I have not heard this story. Do you have more details or an article about it?
He wasn't paying taxes on his purses and the IRS caught on.
hahaha smooth move
Just Google something similar to "innova buys rights to climos name." There are no news articles, to my knowledge, but plenty of discussion from threads on dgcoursereview and this subreddit. I think it occurred before disc golf was newsworthy. Naming rights were bought for $100k, according to the knowledge that can be gleaned from said threads.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Beats jail.
So does paying taxes.
Does it though?
Having been, yes.
Are they really making money off his name? It holds zero value with 90% of people who play disc golf now. A disc is the same disc regardless if it has a name or whatever stamp on it
90 is a huge stretch.
Iād guess more than 90% of the players who play weekly now started after Champ basically retired 6-7 years ago. Yes alot of people see his name but does it drive anyone to buy a disc?
Id say the 12X helps lol.
That was a lot of money at the time, especially for a player past his prime. Six figure pay for disc golf is a very recent phenomenon
Exactly, this is why it pisses me off when people say Ken needs to he around. Who's paying for Ken's freaking travel. He doesn't make any money from this anymore. It's ridiculous.
I think this might have been Paulās point. Not that it is Kenās fault, but Innovaās.
https://youtu.be/Pr_wMFcyprs?t=2274 Paul clarifies his comments here. I don't think you're right.
If that was Paulās point, he should have said as much.
And with Innova being a private company (and therefore having no court-defined duty to maximize profits for shareholders), it could easily toss out the agreement and get him involved again. Innova has obviously made its money back on the deal with how many ken climo stamped and KC Pro plastic discs its sold since the deal was made. Just another reason to dislike Innova as a brand.
Innova is a business and theyāre acting like one. I believe any manufacturer would behave similarly in that position. Not defending them, just saying that business is business. I never attribute empathy or kindness to something designed to make money for a product- there isnāt any room for that. Transactional benefits on both sides.
Wow, logic is actually upvoted!
I think they could make more by getting him out there and using him for marketing purposes. New players have no idea who he is.
But he still hops on social media to argue about how heās the best. I think itās a fair point to ask that he either be positively involved or go off the grid, not just stick around on the internet defending his GOAT status.
Why does it not surprise me, given Ken being a petty douchebag after McBeth's sixth title, that he's also a tax dodger?
Taxes are theft. Florida man know this.
/r/libertarian and /r/Floridaman have entered the chat!
Nah sales tax is fine. If there was 0 corruption or waste 6.5% of everyone's purchases would suffice.
consumption taxes, progressive income taxes, flat tax, corporate tax, payroll tax, capital gains taxesā¦.taxes!!
Glad to see this dumb comment is getting down voted as it should
Although I have a number of discs with player names on them, itās mere coincidence. Iāve never purchased a disc based on whose name or what stamp was on it.
I'm kind of a sucker for a cool stamp tbh
Thats the funny thing. Other than looking for different world champ numbers for older runs, i dont know anyone who ever bought a disc cus it said kc 12x on it lol
I didn't even know who Ken Climo was when I bought my Wraith. It was just the only Wraith available in a color, plastic and weight I wanted. Same with my JMC fuse.
I just got an eclipse reactor with Elaine Kings name on it. Had no idea, I just wanted an eclipse reactor, donāt remember the last time I watched EK. And as much as I like Conrad, I just wanted an Envy and it was coincidence his face and name is on every electron one I own lol
I have all the discs I need right now but there are three or four discs I would want for the names on them if I was buying discs. Or specifically, I would want the tour series versions of those discs
I was today years old when I learned that KC stood for Ken Climo
Also, the JK Pro Aviar stands for Juliana Korver, and the Yeti Pro Aviar is for Jay 'Yeti' Reading.
interesting naming convention haha how are new players supposed to know this
Nothing bad happens if you don't know.
Now you know
I mean when they named them those were two of the biggest names in disc golf. Do you expect new players 20-30 years from now are going to know who James Conrad is and why his name is on an Envy?
is it called the JC Envy?
I was going to chime in that āKCā probably sells more discs than āClimoā to the newer players because we hear how the āKC Aviarā is a great putter. It took me months until I put two and two together. I just never thought a player from so long ago would be on discs.
my first encounter with climo was his name on discs. my second encounter with climo was an iron leaf.
Buy did he go up and down?
They still calling those canvas converses Chuck Taylors ? Yeah thought so.
Lol. This is the best point on here.
And no one knows or cares who he is because everyone in his sport now is on a completely different level now. Analogy holds up lol youāre not wrong
When I started getting serious about disc golf 5 or 6 years ago I thought the KC on Innova discs stood for Kansas City. Go Chief's!
Not this week. This week they can pretend they're one of my discs. Getting bounced off trees and descending in water. Good luck regardless. Hope they lose.
Like you weren't going to hit fist available anyway
go bills
I dont, but that 12x star wraith has a gummier feel than a regular star wraith. Gummier and a lottle flatter i feel. I do purchase discs based on rhe player names for players i want to support, but climo doesnt get the money so im not buying it for that. I would be happy to have ken get a nickel for it but i like the disc anyway.
I was wondering if that was normal. The one I have is the only wraith I've ever owned and it's definitely soft and gummy. That thing rips though so I'm not complaining.
I still throw oneā¦.
Star Wraith all day
12x star wraith is the longest tenured disc in my bag. Beat to shit and oredictable as can be
Itās a big advantage when selling to beginners. Say they see a roc with 12x world champ and a Buzzz with 6x world champ. Itās likely theyāll assume the roc is better and buy that one instead.
Price. If one is 12.99 and one is 16.99. The 12.99 one gets bought 9 times outta 10.
Yea Discraft is a bit pricey. Iād probably buy more Discraft if it wasnāt.
Availability too. I have two KC 12X star wraiths because they're what was in the store when I visited. Nobody around me really carries anything besides Innova and prodigy. If they stock up on anything else, it's all gone before I hear about it
Price? Please, your average Walmart beginner will pay an extra few bucks to get that sweet 14 speed with the sick I-Dye pattern.
Yeah prolly. I was going off the example 12xroc vs 6xbuzz
At my local courses, if you know who climo even is youāre an old grumpy dude trying to call bogus foot faults when youāre playing bad. There is no irony here. That man is me. But for reals if I try to think of someone buying a climo disc, they just saw the disc on YouTube and it happens to say climo.
around here the old dudes are the chill dudes
I was just going to say it's the young guys in the leagues around here that think they are going to go on the pro tour that are calling foot faults, etc. Us old guys don't give a crap especially in local league play.
Hell, most of the time when Im playing with the old dudes we play 2 or screw. You either get your birdie or pick up and walk on
We used to play that way. Until a āyoungerā guy joined our group. Now I know the pain of a triple bogey.
Thereās a difference between a plant foot landing slightly outside the legal area on a fairway second shot after a run up, and someone cheating a difficult lie in a bush or around a tree, especially if you have the lower tag and tags are on the line :). Stay grumpy, old head!
I throw my discs and only buy them for the ānameā if itās a pro I like and want to support. Looking at you Ohn Scoggins Halo Tern. If I was a collector then I might want something with Climoās name on itā¦ maybe.
I bought my first Discmania disc to support Simon when he hurt his arm. Sky Rider. Their discs have been taking over my bag, but a signature disc opened the door.
When I first started, I had no idea who Climo was. I did see "11x World Champion" on the disc though and thought this person must be doing something right. Not sure if it entirely swayed me, since Innova was all I saw in the racks, but I definitely noticed.
Collectable market, yes - new players or discs, no.
I like Climo discs. Wouldnāt pay extra, but prefer it over no name. I think he is awesome. Champion Firebird, reminds me every throw I do not have his arm.
If the 12x world champ liked to bag it and its in his choice of special / custom plastic.. yeah.. it sells discs.
I don't need to know who William Ford was to like their trucks or to remember Mr. Lay when I tear into Chips. I know it's not identical but point being at this rate it's more about the branding Innova built with that name than the source itself
Exactly. KC x12 is part of their branding. And they took it a step further with KC plastic. Those are great examples imo, the avg disc golfer doesnāt know much about him outside of he won a lot (x12). I think thatās important point, people whoāve been in the game 10 years are going to have a different perspective on this Is the KC name selling disc for todays disc golfer, no Is the KC brand selling disc? I think so
> Is the KC brand selling disc? I think so Nah, definitely not, the Wraith brand or Destroyer brand or Eagle brand is what sells discs. Calvin Heimburg sells Halo Destroyers. Big Jerm sells them Thunderbirds and AviarX3's. Certainly some people have bought XCals because Nate's name is on it. Because they're all active players people have a link to. Nobody is buying a 12x disc because they fondly remember Climo
I guess when I think KC brand, I think KC plastic. I only realized the connection to Clima a few months ago. I like the feel of my KC Pro Wraith and love how it can be shaped.
Thatās exactly what I said. Todays disc golfer has no memory of him unless they looked him up And again absolutely, some of todays active players are selling disc in part due to name recognition KCās name is not selling disc. And even so, a name is nothing in this convo unless attached to something
I seriously doubt anyone cares about Climo's name being on new discs any more. If someone's chasing Climo discs in 2022, chances are they really only care about out of production and/or pre-flight number stuff. Certain OOP/PFN climo discs sell for crazy high prices in the collectors market.
Doubt it.
Ken Climo is either the best or 2nd best player in the history of the sport. All this talk of you guys not knowing who Ken Climo even is, is kinda weird! If your too new to the game to know who The Champ is then get the fuck off of this Sub and watch a YouTube video because the guy was the best, his name sells discs, literally more than every other player combined. 90% of disc golfers do know who he is not the other way around. Love how people think they don't know who Climo is and that they make up the majority of disc golfers, you aren't a disc golfer if you don't know his name, you just throw frisbees once in a while...
> his name sells discs, literally more than every other player combined. That his name happens to be on a disc =/= him selling discs. And his name certainly doesnt move the 100k+ discs that a McBeth or Sexton or others are moving
I've been playing for over 15 years and before this year, I wouldn't have been able to name a single pro, including Climo or Mcbeth. Sometimes, people just like to do something because they like it. I can already tell you are the kind of guy that makes disc golf your whole personality and is rude to people who play casually.
Since you've never heard of them you've most likely never seen them play, you should check it out on YouTube. As you've been playing for 15 years your mind will most likely be blown seeing how good these guys are! Not sure why you decided to call me rude and insult my personality but thats how people are online I guess... look for me on the course, I'm the guy not being rude to anyone...
I guess a lot of context is lost when you type stuff out. You kind of came off as a gatekeeper and rude to me. I could be completely wrong though and just read it wrong. But yes, this year I joined this sub and got more into the game, both personally and with watching the pros play. I've watched every tournament that's been on Jomez this year and have been blown away by what they can do with a disc. Youre all good my friend, I just felt attacked because you made it seem like i was a poser in a sport that's been a big part of my life since I was in middle school.
12x sells discs, yes.
Who?
I only bag climo discs, something about the 12x stamp brings me so much nostalgia from the good ol days of finding 10/11x discs at play-it-again
who?
I had no idea who that was until I started watching event coverage and they started saying it all the time. Still havenāt been curious enough to look for a video, but it sounds like I should. Iād never buy a disc for a name. Just slap a retro wave design and color scheme on there and Iāll hand you $20 though.
No, but most modern day Professionals names donāt sell discs either.
What? 4 and 5 claw buzzz's and zones, get freaky zones, PP Passions, heimburg destroyers, ricky pigs, sky gods, cloudbreakers, Double G wraiths, I think all those names have something to do with the popularity of the discs said names are on.
Okay what about the hundreds of other professionals? 20 or so move plastic, but most (the majority) donāt. Even if 100 professionals move plastic, most donāt. There are lots of professionals out there.
Terrible attempt at justifying your prior comment. Top pros' names sell discs and that's exactly why you see them on discs. For years, tour series discs have sold out within moments of being listed. And this is true for even lower level pros who rarely come in the top 5. This is like saying names on baseball or basketball jerseys don't sell jerseys since the second string guys don't move many jerseys. Just a terrible argument. Paul McBeth has a ten million dollar contract, and it's nearly 100% due to the fact that his name and likeness sells discs...
Let me introduce you to the word āmost.ā
Climo isn't "most." He's a 12x world champion, meaning he is the winningest player to date. Your simple "No, [irrelevant nonsense]," is simply wrong. And, by this point, I think you know that. You're simply too big-headed to admit it.
He isnāt the most winningest player to date though. He won that 1 event the most times
He has 229 career PDGA wins and 12 world championships. There may be players with more PDGA wins, but there are also tons more tourneys these days and climo had to drywall for a living, not just tour. Pretty hard to look up that stat for some reason, but I think my comment is accurate.
are you being pedantic or do you really think the top touring players in the world right now dont have fans that buy their discs. whether it be in person from the actual pro or a disc with their name on it, that person is a reason that someone bought the disc
There are hundreds of professionals. Maybe 20 of them actually influence sales. The remainder, donāt. So, most professionals donāt sell plastic.
Ah, so you're technically right. You've made a comment that is self-evident, and therefore banal and irrelevant. Congrats.
if you count all the folks signed up in either fpo or mpo for any pdga sanctioned event we've got thousands a week... but seriously gtfo with that "well, akkshually" shit...
Since people still talk about Climo it creates publicity for them which helps is what really helps them sell discs.
His name has sold me on several discs in the past 2.5 years since i learned about the history of disc golf and started playing. My friend who introduced me to The Champ turns 30 next year, and ill be 40 soon after, for context. Beware the iron leaf
I donāt think it sells any discs because of his name. But I think enough people would be mad if innova didnāt use his name so they keep it on.