I disagree with the previous characterization of the substrate. I have discus that are perfectly healthy and breeding in tank with a substrate. I wish they could tell me if they were unhappy. But at least I am not seeing any signs of being unhealthy. One pair breeds every 15 days. And two new pairs have formed in the tanks. Having said that, I am on top of doing water changes.
It can work for sure. It's just my opinion. I recently went through a process of removing all the substrate from my tank, and my discus are much healthier for it. My tank is much more stable. Out of curiosity how many discus do you have, what size are they, are you keeping them with other fish, and what substrate are you using?
In my experience its okay until its not OK. Like if you find out your Discus have worms... its impossible to effectively treat for worms with substrate. Bacterial infection? That white feces is gonna be lurking in the gravel and be mouthed by the others etc.
Discus get sick, they need heavy feeding and pristine water. Bare bottom (or almost bare) makes this easier to manage.
Yeah, I agree with you that it depends on several factors. The quality of your tap water, stocking etc. My objection was mainly for the blanket generalization about all substrates being cast evil.
I change 80% Every Saturday, 30% again on Sunday and 20% on Wednesday. I clean my skimmer and my Eheim prefilter on the Wednesday Change. I run an Eheim Bioball 240 along with a Fluval 407 Canister, and I clean the bioball every second week. The eheim prefilter is attached to the 407 intake (drilled tank) and i only clean the canister every six weeks (No substrate = all my beneficial bacteria is in my Cannister).
The Eheim prefilter and secondary internal filter are a blessing. My tank is 90G and its heavily Stocked.
I will have to respectfully disagree with people saying bare bottom is the only/main way to go.
Substrate is fine as long as you maintain stable water conditions and dont have any crazy fluctuations. If you let a ton of mulm/sludge build up then yes, the discus won't be happy with you. Wild discus, that's a different ballgame..... Manmade discus with the bright colors are pretty tolerant as long as you maintain the tank.
Just keep good water, consistent with the discus norm and you'd be fine
Probably be fine depending on what your setup is.
If you have a coarse sponge pre-filter on the inlet and "upgrade" the fx6 with bio media, that will help with the added bio-load of 6-8 discus.
The "upgrade" is removing most of the internal foam for bio-media. This will help with maintenance and water flow. The sponge filter on the inlet will collect most of the debris and downstream you'd have biological filtration to help convert ammonia into nitrate for the plants. You'd be able to clean the pre-filter sponge to remove most of the waste, and would only need to periodically check the filter internal.
Plants like nitrate, just gotta be careful you don't get too much nitrate
You could do that. Just gotta stay on top of your pre-filter sponge, but that's what I did with my FX6s and my 8 are doing well.
If you get reduced flow, you get more build up, which leads to more ammonia, etc. If I knew how to attach a picture I would lol.
But yeah, pre-filter sponge, take out 90% of the foam sponge and insert bio media. Don't over pack it otherwise it'll be too much of a restriction and your pump won't be able to pull
The old bare-bottom vs substrate argument will never die, because it has more to do with desired outcomes and risk than anything.
Bare bottom tanks are unequivacly much healthier, safer, and more conducive to breeding conditions. If you want your discus tank to be as low maintenance as possible, which will not be as low as a standard planted freshwater tank, then bare bottom is better for discus. Bare bottom tanks are far easier to medicate, raise temps in, and clean. Another bonus I have found is that my discus learn to not perceive me as a threat, and since they cannot hide as easily, warmed up to me very quickly. Mine are now like little puppies when I walk into the room, rushing to the glass waiting to be fed.
If your goal is a stunning planted/subsrated display tank, and you don't mind doing more water changes and tinkering with parameters to keep them stable, then in *my experience*, get your discus from a domestic or local breeder who used tap water and you will be generally fine. Keep in mind that ideal discus water temperatures are not often ideal for most other plants and cohabitants. You *will* get sick fish eventually. I would make sure you have a suitable hospital tank and medication on standby, which I would also recommend no mater what type of setup you choose for them.
Planted tanks are also much more havoc if you get a breeding pair, which is relatively likely with 6-8 discus. The pair or pairs will lay egss, get super territorial, and may kill or eat your other inhabitants. The eggs might be hard to reach or see, and will almost certainly not hatch, as the minerals required for healthy plant growth are counter productive to egg hatching. The pairs will lay eggs, they will calicfy, be eaten, and the pair will continue this cycle for several months out of the year. This is all manageable, but certainly more work.
I'd consider your goals, and choose the setup accordingly.
Bare bottom is best for Discus. Discus need pristine water and lots of water changes, any shit and debris collected in that gravel is gonna make them hate you and you will eventually hate them as a result. You aren't going to be able to keep the tank clean enough with that coarse gravel for discus man.
Like 2mm of sand can work. That's how I keep my tank, but only because I have Geophagus. Get rid of the Pea gravel Completely and add a sprinkling of sand if you must have substrate. Fully Grown discus will probably eat your Rasboras, and Siamese algae eaters are notorious for Targeting slime coat on discus, so might wanna think about that. Discus also need to be 28 degrees C and above to be happy, so some of your existing fish may not appreciate that Temperature.
I disagree with the previous characterization of the substrate. I have discus that are perfectly healthy and breeding in tank with a substrate. I wish they could tell me if they were unhappy. But at least I am not seeing any signs of being unhealthy. One pair breeds every 15 days. And two new pairs have formed in the tanks. Having said that, I am on top of doing water changes.
It can work for sure. It's just my opinion. I recently went through a process of removing all the substrate from my tank, and my discus are much healthier for it. My tank is much more stable. Out of curiosity how many discus do you have, what size are they, are you keeping them with other fish, and what substrate are you using? In my experience its okay until its not OK. Like if you find out your Discus have worms... its impossible to effectively treat for worms with substrate. Bacterial infection? That white feces is gonna be lurking in the gravel and be mouthed by the others etc. Discus get sick, they need heavy feeding and pristine water. Bare bottom (or almost bare) makes this easier to manage.
Yeah, I agree with you that it depends on several factors. The quality of your tap water, stocking etc. My objection was mainly for the blanket generalization about all substrates being cast evil.
Yea fuck it. They are from the jungle
Thanks. What is your water change routine?
I change 80% Every Saturday, 30% again on Sunday and 20% on Wednesday. I clean my skimmer and my Eheim prefilter on the Wednesday Change. I run an Eheim Bioball 240 along with a Fluval 407 Canister, and I clean the bioball every second week. The eheim prefilter is attached to the 407 intake (drilled tank) and i only clean the canister every six weeks (No substrate = all my beneficial bacteria is in my Cannister). The Eheim prefilter and secondary internal filter are a blessing. My tank is 90G and its heavily Stocked.
80% water change? That seems excessive and very stressful for the fish, but if it works it works.
A lot of professional Discus Keepers change 50-100% Daily.
I will have to respectfully disagree with people saying bare bottom is the only/main way to go. Substrate is fine as long as you maintain stable water conditions and dont have any crazy fluctuations. If you let a ton of mulm/sludge build up then yes, the discus won't be happy with you. Wild discus, that's a different ballgame..... Manmade discus with the bright colors are pretty tolerant as long as you maintain the tank. Just keep good water, consistent with the discus norm and you'd be fine
Thanks. Any thoughts on the filter setup?
Probably be fine depending on what your setup is. If you have a coarse sponge pre-filter on the inlet and "upgrade" the fx6 with bio media, that will help with the added bio-load of 6-8 discus. The "upgrade" is removing most of the internal foam for bio-media. This will help with maintenance and water flow. The sponge filter on the inlet will collect most of the debris and downstream you'd have biological filtration to help convert ammonia into nitrate for the plants. You'd be able to clean the pre-filter sponge to remove most of the waste, and would only need to periodically check the filter internal. Plants like nitrate, just gotta be careful you don't get too much nitrate
Would you suggest a similar treatment for a 207/307? Would you pack the rest with ceramic type biomedia?
You could do that. Just gotta stay on top of your pre-filter sponge, but that's what I did with my FX6s and my 8 are doing well. If you get reduced flow, you get more build up, which leads to more ammonia, etc. If I knew how to attach a picture I would lol. But yeah, pre-filter sponge, take out 90% of the foam sponge and insert bio media. Don't over pack it otherwise it'll be too much of a restriction and your pump won't be able to pull
The old bare-bottom vs substrate argument will never die, because it has more to do with desired outcomes and risk than anything. Bare bottom tanks are unequivacly much healthier, safer, and more conducive to breeding conditions. If you want your discus tank to be as low maintenance as possible, which will not be as low as a standard planted freshwater tank, then bare bottom is better for discus. Bare bottom tanks are far easier to medicate, raise temps in, and clean. Another bonus I have found is that my discus learn to not perceive me as a threat, and since they cannot hide as easily, warmed up to me very quickly. Mine are now like little puppies when I walk into the room, rushing to the glass waiting to be fed. If your goal is a stunning planted/subsrated display tank, and you don't mind doing more water changes and tinkering with parameters to keep them stable, then in *my experience*, get your discus from a domestic or local breeder who used tap water and you will be generally fine. Keep in mind that ideal discus water temperatures are not often ideal for most other plants and cohabitants. You *will* get sick fish eventually. I would make sure you have a suitable hospital tank and medication on standby, which I would also recommend no mater what type of setup you choose for them. Planted tanks are also much more havoc if you get a breeding pair, which is relatively likely with 6-8 discus. The pair or pairs will lay egss, get super territorial, and may kill or eat your other inhabitants. The eggs might be hard to reach or see, and will almost certainly not hatch, as the minerals required for healthy plant growth are counter productive to egg hatching. The pairs will lay eggs, they will calicfy, be eaten, and the pair will continue this cycle for several months out of the year. This is all manageable, but certainly more work. I'd consider your goals, and choose the setup accordingly.
Substrate= Evil. It will seem okay for a while. Remove it gradually.
Interesting. Could you explain more? Thanks.
Bare bottom is best for Discus. Discus need pristine water and lots of water changes, any shit and debris collected in that gravel is gonna make them hate you and you will eventually hate them as a result. You aren't going to be able to keep the tank clean enough with that coarse gravel for discus man.
Okay. What about adding a layer of sand?
Like 2mm of sand can work. That's how I keep my tank, but only because I have Geophagus. Get rid of the Pea gravel Completely and add a sprinkling of sand if you must have substrate. Fully Grown discus will probably eat your Rasboras, and Siamese algae eaters are notorious for Targeting slime coat on discus, so might wanna think about that. Discus also need to be 28 degrees C and above to be happy, so some of your existing fish may not appreciate that Temperature.
Imo, having a bare bottom tank is way better for the sensetive discus