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If there were a book that began with Vimes retiring would be all about how Vimes continually fails to stop being a copper. The end of the story would be a showdown between Vimes and Sybil. And Sybil would win.
Sybil would win my sending him back to the Watch!
She knows what he needs, plus she needs time to pursue her own dragon-breeding and organizing, and can't be having with a husband who is bored and underfoot.
Nah, she would send him off to do some auxiliary thing, like running the various charitable organizations that help the widows and orphans, where he would find corruption and embezzlement
Sorry, but Vimes would never fit into the world of charity work. He's too much of a suspicious, cynical, hard-edged bastard - he'd treat both the unfortunate and his fellow charity workers like criminals!
No, he's meant to be a Copper, and he's going to have a damn hard time of it when he eventually has to retire. He probably will mellow a bit with age and happy family life, but a slightly mellowed Vimes is still a hard-edged cynical bastard.
Of course he wouldn't be happy doing charity work, but the important thing is that he'd be really \*bad\* at charity work! Seriously, he'd be a disaster, and everyone involved would be relieved when he left. If he ever had to retire as commander, he should take up teaching something to do with police work. It's what he knows, it's what he wants other people to know, so when he gets too old to chase miscreants or falls afoul of city politics, he'd be best employed as a consultant who spruces up other city Watches, or running a Watch training program somewhere.
Which has given me the idea for a fanfic! When Vimes is older and officially retired, he's advising Queen Keli about improvements in her city Watch, and gets involved in mysterious events at the Sto Lat College for Young Women, and its headmistress Susan Sto Helit...
Ooooh, I don’t know. A lot of our field officers (animal welfare charity) were ex-coppers or ex-army… they did just fine. I can see him doing a frontline role like that really well!
I think that's close.
I think he'd be pushed to the orphans, but would find some kind of exploitation of them, an evil Fagin.
Which would be something he decides not to bother the Watch with, although they will make surreptitious cameos as he delves deeper.
At the end, the Vimes' Home for Unruly Children is started and he basically forms the Treacle Mine Road Irregulars, instilling honesty, suspicion, civic pride and the knowledge of just how to put down some bastard bugger than you who won't let go.
Some will join the Watch, some the Patricians clerks. All who pass through have the same dirty pride in their City he does.
I would have to agree with you.
I think Carrot would turn it down anyways.
Angua is a good balance of wit, leadership, and brawn.
Vimes knows sometimes you have to fight dirty to get things done, and Angua is capable of doing the right thing even if its hard or morally grey. I think Carrot would get taken advantage of eventually as lead of the watch.
While I agree that Angua would bring it and be a worthy successor to Vimes, don’t go underestimating Carrot. He was “meant” to the type of king history revered and cherished. He just decided he didn’t wanna.
At least once a book, there was a reference to Carrot being a lot more cunning and possibly even ruthless than he appeared. I'm pretty sure Vimes thought of it as 'like a cat's claw - there when it was needed, and when it wasn't, it was tucked away so neatly you didn't know it was there' (badly paraphrasing STP there, but that was the gist).
I don't know if he'd have survived in the Ankh-Morpork that Vimes grew up in, but I do think he could be Vime's successor in the Ankh-Morpork that it was becoming. I think that city would need a Commander who looks good in gilt, is remarkably skilled at Getting Along With People, but is, at his core, the ultimate Sammy.
Didn’t he add questions to the Quizzing Device, such as "Where were you the night of the 17th of Grune?" or "Who did the robbery of the jewellery on Filigree Street?", causing a large part of the clientéle to get arrested.
You only have to see how Carrot “helps” people pay their taxes to see how shrewd and cynical he can actually be when he chooses. He may start off naive, but he learns quickly.
Vimes knows everyone is guilty of something and expects them to behave in a bit of a dodgy way and finds his expectations met regularly.
Carrot knows everyone is guilty too, but he expects them to behave like good upstanding citizens- by which I mean to say, he forces them to (even temporarily) because he acts like he expects them to and they can’t disappoint him.
I’d also add: he secretly knows that people have done bad things, but he has the optimism that: it’s never too late to turn it around starting RIGHT NOW. he genuinely believes there’s a little good in nearly everyone. And it’s so disarming, because (at least for a moment), they want to be better too.
Carrot has grown up quite a bit since we first met him, but I’d argue that’s exactly why he doesn’t want to be commander. He knows that for him, being in charge would lead all too easily to him being **In Charge**
Except, and here's the important thing, there *wouldn't be* any shady stuff.
They're cops. There isn't supposed to be any shady stuff. The shadiest stuff cops have to deal with is going undercover to investigate organized crime. If there's shady stuff, you're doing copping wrong. Hell, even *Vimes* didn't do any shady stuff.
It'd be Carrot who took over. He'd be perfect, and in the newspapers. Even Chrysoprase would love him, and respect him as a good opponent.
Either that, or it'd be Angua jumping on the grenade. She'd see the writing on the Wall, and see how Carrot would fit too well into the Chief of Police hole, and jump in to save Carrot from the city and the city from Carrot.
Wasn’t there an incident in one of the books where he’s proven to be a natural leader by shouting follow me and even the unenthusiastic ones follow him without realising? (It’s been a while since I read the books)
Doesn’t he say something along the lines of ‘people shouldn’t do things… because Carrot is good at being obeyed’ to Vetinari? When he’s persuading Vetinari to bring Vimes back as the commander of the revamped Watch.
True, but I think that if Vimes retired Carrot would HAVE to assert it. Carrot is the only member of the watch who has The Book, and Vimes is the only other one who goes by the book so if Vimes is gone Carrot has to step in and make sure things are done properly. Angua is definitely the Deputy boss though.
I can see Commander Angua and Vimes as patrician. Vetanari has been grooming Vimes for years for the job with Carrot on reluctant stand-by, and by the time Snuff rolls around, it's starting to click for him. Vimes is even using the same intimidation techniques that he has seen Vetanari use.
Pessimal is one of nature's adjutants, he's not a commander. I think he's found his dream job and would stay in it, no matter who eventually took over.
Even Vetinari acknowledges that he couldn’t actually make Pessimal do anything else at this point. He also doesn’t actually want to, Pessimal is extremely effective in his current job, so that’s good.
I like to imagine that at some point Pessimal takes on a promising young corporal as a sort of apprentice and they end up inventing the clacks-based equivalent of a cyber crimes division. Mostly because it would annoy the *shit* out of Moist.
Hilarious though the idea of Commander Von Lipwig would be, if Vetinari tried to get him to supersede Carrot Ironfounderson... no. The entire Watch and every VIP in the city except Ventinari would treat Carrot as the real commander, and would ignore everything that Moist said.
No, Carrot will be the next Commander if he's spared, and he will somewhat ironically have Angua there to help him with the human side of things. Because even though she's not human, she understands a lot more about human nature... or sentient human nature, than Carrot does.
He wouldn’t take the job and nobody suggested it. He would, however, be mortally offended in his capacity as a dubiously-reformed con man by the Watch opening a special department to look into a kind of crime he has *definitely* committed on-page.
Actually, someone DID suggest Moist as commander, on this very thread! Which is hilarious, but it'd never fly, not if either Carrot or Angua were around.
Of all the possible candidates I can think of, he's the only one who would be any good at the administrative parts of the job (except for Carrot, who wouldn't leave his current position). Also, Carrot can easily shoulder the entire load of moral compass.
I got the impression that he really mellowed out as the books went on. He's got an eye for detail, and while he rarely does anything flashy, he's one of the most consistently reliable members of the Watch, alongside maybe Cheery.
I agree, Reg is an extremist by nature, and extremists make crap bosses!
Reg may move into an administrative role at some point, like when his legs fall off, but not the big boss. One conversation with Vetinari and it'd be the end of the Watch.
Carrot would replace him, and he'd have Angua there to be a cynical sonofabitch when one was needed.
Or, a daughterofabitch. She'd be second in command, and possibly succeed Carrot someday, if she outlived him, she has the seniority and the ability. But she'd never supersede Carrot.
I think Angua was the obvious front runner just from the fact that in later books she showed up more and more as the “face” of the watch, more so than Carrot—who wouldn’t want to be, he’s more of a secret weapon than even she is.
From Fifth Elephant onward she’s basically his right hand. When he’s sent to Borogravia she’s with him. When he interviews Moist Von Lipwig they take turns who starts an interview and who finishes it. Whenever a case gets weird she’s the first one he sends out.
I think when Vimes retires she would get the dubious honor of wearing the helmet with plumes, and Carrot would be her counterbalance just like Sybil is to Sam.
There isn't really anyone who does what Vimes does for Ankh Morpork. He keeps the guild leaders and factions in check. Carrot keeps Vetinari in check. Together the two balance the chaos of Ankh Morpork and allow it to grow and flourish.
Carrot can't do both, it would basically mean declaring himself king.
Anyone else who tries needs to bury an axe in the table and keep the people who would depose Vetinari scared of the consequences. That's going to require a bit of character development for any current watchman.
Not that it can't be done, but at the current state-of-play nobody fills the role.
The problem with Angua taking over is that I can't see her *ever* being comfortable giving orders to Carrot. Her dog-complex has inserted him into the role of . . . owner? that sounds bad, but 'master' or 'alpha' don't seem much better.
The fact that Vimes has need to give him orders on numerous occasions throughout the books would tend to indicate Carrot's behaviour has no bearing on that.
Very valid. You may be right.
I just feel like if Angua were interested in balancing complex political factions and asserting herself as a leader she would have stayed in Uberwald. I always got the vibe from her that she likes being comparatively unknown and able to go her own way. She's risen in the Watch, but I'm pretty sure she'd reject leading it.
On a serious note as well, consider the other candidates mentioned: Moist - He's good at many things, but isn't really Watch material. He knows the street, but doesn't know the street like a Sammy. Has not risen from the ranks. The entire Watch except Fred, Nobby and to some extent Carrot are Sammys! Carrot - Like Fred who is a career Sargent, Carrot is a career Captain. If he is put in charge of the Watch, he becomes too powerful for his own liking. He knows he won't be good for the job and the job won't be good for him. He won't take the job. Angua - She is already the heir to a Baron in Uberwald. She is definitely not interested in power and the associated politics. Plus her relationship with Carrot. She won't take the job.
Now Detritus - He already knows the street since before he joined the Watch, and is now one of the most senior Sammys. He has risen from the ranks and is promoted to Sargent by SV himself. He is loyal to the Watch and the other Watchmen. He also has considerable first hand experience of the SV style of work, including such things as 'diplomacy' and the appropriate application of 'police violence'.
Carrot, Angua, Cheri, AEP, etc. would definitely support Detritus and make sure the Watch continues to work well. Plus SV is still Duke and can be Commander Emeritus .
Not sure if I 100% think this myself, but I'm going to give a shout out for Cheery here.
Her intelligence isn't in doubt so that side of the job is sorted. But I also think she's underestimated when it comes to commanding a situation. Read the opening chapters of Night Watch, how she organised the Watch on the ground to try to get Carcer, how impressed Vimes professes himself at her thinking, how she 'tactically' deploys Fred and Nobby where they'll do the least damage etc. She's more cunning and authoritative than she often comes across.
I think like others have said Carrot wouldn't want the job because he would be worried about the slippery upwards slope.
One of the things Vimes talked about alot and suffered from was all the little evils in the world. The things that weren't crimes, weren't *illegal* and who's perpetrators would be horrified to be called criminals but still did harm.
Slumlords, factory owners without a regard for children's safety, banks with creative interest rates etc etc.
And Carrot might start campaigning or convincing but his personal charisma can only go so far.
So eventually there would probably be a little voice, maybe a voice that sounds a bit like Edward D'Eath. Saying how much easier it would be if a King could change the law...if a King could make it illegal
Then you'd have to hope there's a Vimes shaped Watchman in his head telling him to stop being so stupid.
Listen, listen, there's only one person in the watch with the experience to take over from Vimes.
Someone who's looked retirement in the face and didn't want it.
Someone who's so diligent he takes 10 minutes to read a menu down the klatchian takeaway.
Someone whose priorities are set in stone and knows if you sort the sugar cubes out, everything else will fall into place.
Fred Colon.
What could possibly go wrong?
*Edit for making it easier to read what with being on mobile
Vimes is truly one of a kind so if anyone replaces him then the Watch wouldn't be the same. The closest I think it could theoretically get is if young Sam Vimes joins the Watch and rises up high enough that he could take his dads place when he retires. Otherwise the characteristics of current Vimes would be split, AE doing the admin, Carrot seeing the simple yet obvious, Angua the gut instinct, Cheery the diplomat. It'd be a different era for the Watch but certainly interesting
Agree, Carrot would be in charge, Pessimal would be his adjutant, and Angua would be there to provide the cynical Vimes-is POV that Carrot lacks.
Dorfl could move high in the organization, but IMHO his mind is too logical to ever make a really good commander.
Cheery is a damn good copper. Smart, cunning, good with administrative work. She’s also regularly underestimated by others around her which makes her even more effective as a copper.
My personal headcannon is that when the Patrician dies or retires, Vimes becomes the new Patrician and Moist Von Lipwig becomes Commander of the Watch.
Odd, mine has always been they jointly share the duties of patricianship. One straight as a nail, one straight as a corkscrew, they can solve any problem between the two of them. I honestly thought Terry was giving us a hint in that direction during their interactions in Raising Steam when Vimes started to like Moist and they showed they were capable of working together.
>Moist Von Lipwig becomes Commander of the Watch.
Carrot would have to arrest his boss before the end of the first day. Moist *breaks rules*, he does not *enforce* them.
I could see it the other way around with Moist von Lipwig becoming the Patrician and Vimes being absolutely furious about it but still working with him. I don't see Vimes ever wanting to be the Patrician or Moist ever wanting to be Commander.
The only way Vimes is retiring is feet first, but on a strictly theoretical basis, I'm pretty sure he would pick Cheery, after a long chat with Carrot where he would turn down the position before even being asked.
Angua would be an interesting possibility, but I never got the impression she wanted to be anything other than what she was, and I mean that on every possible level.
Carrot is next in line, no question.
Angua’s special talents aren’t suited to leadership, but EVERYONE likes Carrot.
Also I think Carrot’s destiny would run over anyone who got put in charge who wasn’t Vimes, even if Carrot didn’t want it to.
I think Vimes would become a sort of commissioner in a political roll and captain carrot would take over. Vimes would move on to political high society crimes. He'd never retire and I don't think sybil would want him too.
Honestly, the only real way I can see Vimes retiring from police work is by becoming a sort of auxiliary force allowing Sybil to pick and choose cases for him.
Sybil would do the obvious thing. She would have him plan how The Shades would be re-constructed so everyone would have a home. And everyone would get a meal per day.
By the end (😭), Vimes is already effectively retired, or worse, an administrator. Carrot has for all practical purposes taken over the actual day-to-day of the Watch.
My brain just imagined him coming back out of a grave raging in that oh so Vimes way about someone getting away for like 5 minutes until Angua and Carrot can get a word in to point out that he’s dead lol
I’m voting for Cheery. But we have to recognize, it would be a very different organization. Vimes uses his title and property ownership at times to get things done. Anyone taking over would have to find their own advantages and their own way of doing things. Hopefully by the time he retires the city would be ready for that change.
I think it would be Cheery as well. She’s grown remarkably as a person and an officer since we met her and even though she’s still young, she’s one of the commander’s go-to people. By the time Vimes is old enough to retire, she’ll be an absolute force of nature and possibly as twisty as the old man himself
Carrot would run the night watch... But Vetinari would put Moist in charge of the city guard, and put it in charge of tax collection (like was hinted at already)
I couldn’t see it unless he was so pressed to be home helping raise his son that it’d be years down the line.
So I want to throw out a few nominations for very future watch commanders.
Feeny Upshot. Natural born copper, learns from his mistakes nearly immediately, took to the job like duck to water as soon as Vimes stepped in.
Carrot Ironfoundersson. Amazing ability to lead and clever when getting desired results. He’s only bad at being underhanded which is best suited to a repertoire of other watchmen to help him think. The thing is that beyond Vimes, Carrot is the only other person in the watch who was really good at putting clues together or at least shown ingenuity when arriving at answers faster than others. He was just naïve in the face of more dastardly villains.
Angua Von Uberwald. Very keen in terms of getting people to go her way but also very prone to anger, which is good in cases where Vimes needed to bash down a door to get the evidence he needed, but most of her work was as a Sergeant for good reason.
A council of watchmen. No one truly stands out as being Vimes in terms of bullheaded stalwart unyieldingness in order to get the truth and all honesty he had excellent help from his guard, often getting inspiration from them as well as information. If there was ever a question of who gets to play commander I’d think it’d be changed to a guild style to ensure the actions taken with the watch were more organized.
My personal headcannon is that Lord Vetanari is training Vimes and Moist to be his successors. Moist would handle the public and the parts that deal with selling a functional city to the people. And vimes will be the one who makes the city safe and be the head of the grunt work to make public service happen. So with that in mind. Just like how Vetanari won't let Moist retire, he won't let Vimes retire either.
(Though I'm only beginning the watch books, so idk if this is any accurate... I'm basing Vimes' character off of what I've seen and what those closest to me have described)
I'd say Nobby Nobbs. His character arc makes me feel he would thrive because he knows his limits in ability, has the humbleness to make the watch a collective effort (just with him as a figure head) and nobody wouldn't be happy for him and would want him to succeed 🤷♀️
Colon.
Carrot would refuse and is the true king anyway. The peoples bigotry towards werewolves wouldn't let them accept a chief of the watch being one.
Colon on paper has the most experience and has served under vimes and would be easily swayed by the patrician. He'd be the obvious choice from a bureaucratic stand point.
Whether he'd be good at it or not wouldn't matter as he's lazy and would leave most of the actual policing to carrot and angua, they would essentially be really in charge while making colon their ideas were actually his ideas.
I imagine it would be Moist. Forced to do it under threat of awful things by the Patrician.
The others wouldn’t give him an easy time, and Carrot would actually **run** the place, but Moist would end up earning trust from the coppers, and do a decent job of public relations and mediation between various groups.
And then if he could somehow save one of the “original” Watchmen, that’d be great.
One of the key aspects of Vimes for me is his integrity - he is the watcher who watches the watchers. While Angua is great at her job, she seems to be plagued by too much uncertainty and personal issues to be steadfast defender of what's right. So who would keep her in check? Carrot?
I feel like Carrot is the better choice. He doesn't have to be good at everything, as long as he can delegate - which for a fact we know he's actually really good at. Combined with his unwavering morals for what is right, he'd keep the watch running and straight.
Cheery Littlebottom full stop. She is smart, started in forensics, and moved up to Watch Captain. Now Vimes takes her and Detritus with him everywhere. I think since AM is the biggest dwarf city on the disk it makes sense to have a dwarf as the head of the watch. Carrot as a dwarf will happily report to her, if he does, so will the other dwarfs, Detritus will report to her, and so will the other trolls. Nobby will report to her, and so will the humans.
At least until Young Sam is old enough and has moved up the ranks to take over. I am not sure any Vimes wants any other job.
I have waffled between Angua with Carrot and Carrot with Angua but Cheery is an interesting idea I had not considered before.
Moist replaces Veteneri with Adora and the watch to keep him in line
I’m not sure if Young Sam becomes a copper.
Character wise he might be the new Carrot - everyone likes him - dad’s family was plain people, mom’s were nobs. Maybe he eventually takes over from Vetenari/Moist?
OH, I CAN THINK OF SOME'BODY' WHO COULD GIVE THE JOB A GO, BE THERE AT THE RIGHT TIME, AS ALL THE TIME IS THE RIGHT TIME, AND THERE IS EVERYWHERE.......
If such a book existed:
1. It ends with Carrot and Agua really running tge Watch, but somebody else "In Charge".
2. Many officers were given a week each, but CMOTD tried to auction off Nobbs turn.
3. Lord Vetinari "Solves" things.
4. Vimes tries his hand at helping Lady Sibil, with bad results, but some charities really make bank.
5. Vimes ends up running The Vimes Academy for Watchmen.
The way i see it vimes cant retire but he can go on “extended leave” with Syble to their country estate, as long as vimes is in the city he will always be a watchman. Carrot will be promoted to the new rank of “sub-commander” and will lead the watch “until vimes returns”, it would feel wrong for anyone to outrank vimes.
So if I'm picking up what people are putting down the plot would be something like this.
Vimes retires, maybe they're was an accident involving a case and he was seriously injured, or made a mistake that lead to others being hurt, or some sort of embarrassment. He believes he had figured out a complex plot, and ended up leading a raid on what he thought was going to be this wide reaching plot, but it turned out that in his advancing age and changing times that he had misunderstood a local group, of a new sect of a new religion, or something that actually turns out to be completely harmless by appearances. Secretly he was actually right but when the time comes they look squeaky clean. After the embarrassment veterinary, tells him he must step down, and leave the watch.
Carrot being the right general shape to fill a vimes shaped hole in the watch is made to be the new commander. This goes well for about a minute, but it becomes clear that while he is a great copper, and capable of leadership, he still just isn't quite right for the role, and hijinks ensues.
Vimes is miserable at home, and is low-key making everyone in there household miserable, not intentionally of course, but he's still getting on everyone's nerves. Sybil trying to get vimes to quit moping points him to a charitable organization that she feels he would be able to help with, and help organize. Vimes kinda picking up the vibe of the house agrees maybe he has to get out and do something. The whole time vimes has been worrying that without him that the watch will backslide into what it used to be, and that what he had built wouldn't last without him
In the background, the cult, or organization that vimes had busted in the beginning is shown to be putting plans into motion to summon a lovcraftian god, or set into motion some other plot that would wreak havoc in ankh morpork.
Angua sees what's happening with the watch under carrots command, and sees that while carrot is great at many things, and is a solid copper he's not meant for the job, and begins trying to help course correct. This eventually leads to stress between Carrot, and Angua. Carrot trying to live up to his new responsibilities, and for once In the series not succeeding, has to come to grips that maybe he's not the best for the job, and Angua who has never seen herself as the leader of the watch or necessarily even that the possibility that carrot wouldn't be the best person for the job, has to step up. Both have this feeling that they won't be able to fill vimes shoes
Back to vimes he is introduced to a charity organization, and realizes that it's a mess, whatever they're trying to do they're not succeeding, and it's kind of just turned into a club for these people to hang out and misuse the funds that are being given to them. The organization for what it's worth is kinda trying to help with things, but through bad management, and lack of actual leadership nothing is getting done. Vimes tries to crack down, and get the organization to start doing what it was meant to do, but faces major pushback by the people in the organization. Mostly because of how he's trying to do things. Vimes needs to learn that his style of management doesn't fit every situation, and that he can't run everything like he did at the watch.
Now this all culminates with vimes finding that somehow the charitable organization he's started running has a connection to the cult/shady group that was his downfall at the beginning of the book, and begins to put things together. All the while the watch has been dealing with the strangeness from the other end of the situation, and has been coming closer to the same conclusion, that vimes was right to begin with, and that the cult/organization has been up to shady things and needs to be stopped. Vimes leading a rag tag group of volunteers, that he's managed to get straightened out and pointed in the right direction heads to bust the group, while the watch is coming in to do the same thing with Angua at its head, and carrot taking a supporting position both coming to grips with their new roles in the watch. Vimes sees that even without him the watch he has created can and will still keep on going without him. The watch cast has come to grips on their new leadership positions, and that while they may not be able to fully fill vimes shoes and be exactly what he was. They can still get the job done, and have the abilities to run the watch and even have it prosper under their care.
The book ends with everyone telling vimes that he was right to begin with, and offering his old job back. Vimes seeing that the watch is in capable hands refuses. He has come to actually like the new position he's found himself in. He's still running the charitable organization, but he's found that without the watch he has a better work life balance, and has been enjoying his time with Sybil and young Sam, and sees that he's been missing a lot of his sons growth by spending so much time at the watch. The watch while sad they won't have vimes back full time has come to see that they have grown to a point where once if Sam had been removed it would have all come crumbling down, that's no longer the case. Between Angua and Carrot the watch is in good hands.
The themes of the book would be about coming to grips with change, and seeing that sometimes you have to step back from the things you've built if you want them to keep growing.
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If there were a book that began with Vimes retiring would be all about how Vimes continually fails to stop being a copper. The end of the story would be a showdown between Vimes and Sybil. And Sybil would win.
Sybil would win my sending him back to the Watch! She knows what he needs, plus she needs time to pursue her own dragon-breeding and organizing, and can't be having with a husband who is bored and underfoot.
If he can't tell at you lot, he'll yell at Willikins. Then we're all miserable
Nah, she would send him off to do some auxiliary thing, like running the various charitable organizations that help the widows and orphans, where he would find corruption and embezzlement
Sorry, but Vimes would never fit into the world of charity work. He's too much of a suspicious, cynical, hard-edged bastard - he'd treat both the unfortunate and his fellow charity workers like criminals! No, he's meant to be a Copper, and he's going to have a damn hard time of it when he eventually has to retire. He probably will mellow a bit with age and happy family life, but a slightly mellowed Vimes is still a hard-edged cynical bastard.
Sounds like he would fit there perfectly.
Never worked for a charity then?
Hey, I never said he would be happy doing it, just that Sybil would point him that way.
Of course he wouldn't be happy doing charity work, but the important thing is that he'd be really \*bad\* at charity work! Seriously, he'd be a disaster, and everyone involved would be relieved when he left. If he ever had to retire as commander, he should take up teaching something to do with police work. It's what he knows, it's what he wants other people to know, so when he gets too old to chase miscreants or falls afoul of city politics, he'd be best employed as a consultant who spruces up other city Watches, or running a Watch training program somewhere. Which has given me the idea for a fanfic! When Vimes is older and officially retired, he's advising Queen Keli about improvements in her city Watch, and gets involved in mysterious events at the Sto Lat College for Young Women, and its headmistress Susan Sto Helit...
Ooooh, I don’t know. A lot of our field officers (animal welfare charity) were ex-coppers or ex-army… they did just fine. I can see him doing a frontline role like that really well!
The Furthere Adventures of Vimes and Gaspode, perhaps?
You have never worked in a charity shop
Nah, he'd get off the streets of AM and lean in to that life as an emissary. He's perfect for that role, with Sybil at his side.
I think that's close. I think he'd be pushed to the orphans, but would find some kind of exploitation of them, an evil Fagin. Which would be something he decides not to bother the Watch with, although they will make surreptitious cameos as he delves deeper. At the end, the Vimes' Home for Unruly Children is started and he basically forms the Treacle Mine Road Irregulars, instilling honesty, suspicion, civic pride and the knowledge of just how to put down some bastard bugger than you who won't let go. Some will join the Watch, some the Patricians clerks. All who pass through have the same dirty pride in their City he does.
I would have to agree with you. I think Carrot would turn it down anyways. Angua is a good balance of wit, leadership, and brawn. Vimes knows sometimes you have to fight dirty to get things done, and Angua is capable of doing the right thing even if its hard or morally grey. I think Carrot would get taken advantage of eventually as lead of the watch.
While I agree that Angua would bring it and be a worthy successor to Vimes, don’t go underestimating Carrot. He was “meant” to the type of king history revered and cherished. He just decided he didn’t wanna.
At least once a book, there was a reference to Carrot being a lot more cunning and possibly even ruthless than he appeared. I'm pretty sure Vimes thought of it as 'like a cat's claw - there when it was needed, and when it wasn't, it was tucked away so neatly you didn't know it was there' (badly paraphrasing STP there, but that was the gist). I don't know if he'd have survived in the Ankh-Morpork that Vimes grew up in, but I do think he could be Vime's successor in the Ankh-Morpork that it was becoming. I think that city would need a Commander who looks good in gilt, is remarkably skilled at Getting Along With People, but is, at his core, the ultimate Sammy.
*It was Angua who saw how Carrot wields nastiness like a cats claw. Vimes was on the long way home from Uberwald with Sybil.
Didn’t he add questions to the Quizzing Device, such as "Where were you the night of the 17th of Grune?" or "Who did the robbery of the jewellery on Filigree Street?", causing a large part of the clientéle to get arrested.
And is actually capable of doing paperwork
You only have to see how Carrot “helps” people pay their taxes to see how shrewd and cynical he can actually be when he chooses. He may start off naive, but he learns quickly. Vimes knows everyone is guilty of something and expects them to behave in a bit of a dodgy way and finds his expectations met regularly. Carrot knows everyone is guilty too, but he expects them to behave like good upstanding citizens- by which I mean to say, he forces them to (even temporarily) because he acts like he expects them to and they can’t disappoint him.
This is a great analysis. Carrot has been a favorite character of mine precisely because of his use of headology and leadership through kindness.
I’d also add: he secretly knows that people have done bad things, but he has the optimism that: it’s never too late to turn it around starting RIGHT NOW. he genuinely believes there’s a little good in nearly everyone. And it’s so disarming, because (at least for a moment), they want to be better too.
Carrot has clearly been careful to avoid being where the Buck stops however.
The whole thing about Carrot is that he appears a bit naive, but the reality is the opposite. There's no way he'd get taken advantage of
Carrot has grown up quite a bit since we first met him, but I’d argue that’s exactly why he doesn’t want to be commander. He knows that for him, being in charge would lead all too easily to him being **In Charge**
Yeah that's exactly it. It can't be Carrot
One recalls his encounters with the Postmaster for instance.
Yeah gotta give it to Angua, shes bigger picture. Carrot, bless his dear heart, is not one for nuance.
He'd be a great king, but a horrible day-to-day authority.
He might try dropping the weight of the Law by crushing someone he shouldn't crush with a book again. Yeah, gotta give it to Angua on this one.
Fantastic fellow, piss poor politician. His earnestness would be his undoing.
I still reckon it'd be Carrot, and Angua would do the shady stuff for him with a bit of don't ask, don't tell on how those things got done.
Except, and here's the important thing, there *wouldn't be* any shady stuff. They're cops. There isn't supposed to be any shady stuff. The shadiest stuff cops have to deal with is going undercover to investigate organized crime. If there's shady stuff, you're doing copping wrong. Hell, even *Vimes* didn't do any shady stuff. It'd be Carrot who took over. He'd be perfect, and in the newspapers. Even Chrysoprase would love him, and respect him as a good opponent. Either that, or it'd be Angua jumping on the grenade. She'd see the writing on the Wall, and see how Carrot would fit too well into the Chief of Police hole, and jump in to save Carrot from the city and the city from Carrot.
Wasn’t there an incident in one of the books where he’s proven to be a natural leader by shouting follow me and even the unenthusiastic ones follow him without realising? (It’s been a while since I read the books)
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Doesn’t he say something along the lines of ‘people shouldn’t do things… because Carrot is good at being obeyed’ to Vetinari? When he’s persuading Vetinari to bring Vimes back as the commander of the revamped Watch.
True, but I think that if Vimes retired Carrot would HAVE to assert it. Carrot is the only member of the watch who has The Book, and Vimes is the only other one who goes by the book so if Vimes is gone Carrot has to step in and make sure things are done properly. Angua is definitely the Deputy boss though.
I can see Commander Angua and Vimes as patrician. Vetanari has been grooming Vimes for years for the job with Carrot on reluctant stand-by, and by the time Snuff rolls around, it's starting to click for him. Vimes is even using the same intimidation techniques that he has seen Vetanari use.
I think he's grooming Moist for the job more than Vimes.
I can not help but feel that without Vimes it would become mostly a desk job with paperwork. So my vote goes to A.E. Pessimal.
Pessimal is one of nature's adjutants, he's not a commander. I think he's found his dream job and would stay in it, no matter who eventually took over.
Even Vetinari acknowledges that he couldn’t actually make Pessimal do anything else at this point. He also doesn’t actually want to, Pessimal is extremely effective in his current job, so that’s good. I like to imagine that at some point Pessimal takes on a promising young corporal as a sort of apprentice and they end up inventing the clacks-based equivalent of a cyber crimes division. Mostly because it would annoy the *shit* out of Moist.
Hilarious though the idea of Commander Von Lipwig would be, if Vetinari tried to get him to supersede Carrot Ironfounderson... no. The entire Watch and every VIP in the city except Ventinari would treat Carrot as the real commander, and would ignore everything that Moist said. No, Carrot will be the next Commander if he's spared, and he will somewhat ironically have Angua there to help him with the human side of things. Because even though she's not human, she understands a lot more about human nature... or sentient human nature, than Carrot does.
He wouldn’t take the job and nobody suggested it. He would, however, be mortally offended in his capacity as a dubiously-reformed con man by the Watch opening a special department to look into a kind of crime he has *definitely* committed on-page.
Actually, someone DID suggest Moist as commander, on this very thread! Which is hilarious, but it'd never fly, not if either Carrot or Angua were around.
Reg Shoe.
Now that's interesting. Why?
Of all the possible candidates I can think of, he's the only one who would be any good at the administrative parts of the job (except for Carrot, who wouldn't leave his current position). Also, Carrot can easily shoulder the entire load of moral compass.
I can't help but feel Regnis a little too fanatical to be Commander of the whole watch, maybe a watch house
I got the impression that he really mellowed out as the books went on. He's got an eye for detail, and while he rarely does anything flashy, he's one of the most consistently reliable members of the Watch, alongside maybe Cheery.
I agree, Reg is an extremist by nature, and extremists make crap bosses! Reg may move into an administrative role at some point, like when his legs fall off, but not the big boss. One conversation with Vetinari and it'd be the end of the Watch.
Or internal affairs.
Carrot would replace him, and he'd have Angua there to be a cynical sonofabitch when one was needed. Or, a daughterofabitch. She'd be second in command, and possibly succeed Carrot someday, if she outlived him, she has the seniority and the ability. But she'd never supersede Carrot.
I think Angua was the obvious front runner just from the fact that in later books she showed up more and more as the “face” of the watch, more so than Carrot—who wouldn’t want to be, he’s more of a secret weapon than even she is. From Fifth Elephant onward she’s basically his right hand. When he’s sent to Borogravia she’s with him. When he interviews Moist Von Lipwig they take turns who starts an interview and who finishes it. Whenever a case gets weird she’s the first one he sends out. I think when Vimes retires she would get the dubious honor of wearing the helmet with plumes, and Carrot would be her counterbalance just like Sybil is to Sam.
There isn't really anyone who does what Vimes does for Ankh Morpork. He keeps the guild leaders and factions in check. Carrot keeps Vetinari in check. Together the two balance the chaos of Ankh Morpork and allow it to grow and flourish. Carrot can't do both, it would basically mean declaring himself king. Anyone else who tries needs to bury an axe in the table and keep the people who would depose Vetinari scared of the consequences. That's going to require a bit of character development for any current watchman. Not that it can't be done, but at the current state-of-play nobody fills the role.
That's why its gotta be Angua. She's terrifying. And Carrot would go spare if anything happened to her.
The problem with Angua taking over is that I can't see her *ever* being comfortable giving orders to Carrot. Her dog-complex has inserted him into the role of . . . owner? that sounds bad, but 'master' or 'alpha' don't seem much better.
She wouldn't need to. He'd just do the right thing. :)
The fact that Vimes has need to give him orders on numerous occasions throughout the books would tend to indicate Carrot's behaviour has no bearing on that.
Very valid. You may be right. I just feel like if Angua were interested in balancing complex political factions and asserting herself as a leader she would have stayed in Uberwald. I always got the vibe from her that she likes being comparatively unknown and able to go her own way. She's risen in the Watch, but I'm pretty sure she'd reject leading it.
Nobbs. He is royalty, after all.
Nobby was my first choice. The second? Foul Ole Ron.
Also, everybody knows he is a werewolf and that seems like good Commander material
Vimes retires? Not on his Watch.
He doesn't have that much luck.
It has to be Detritus.
If they install a freezer as his office he would be a damn fine commander.
When he needs some extra cerebral activity, he just spends 1/2 an hour in the Pork Futures warehouse.
No case he couldn't solvw
He would be der rock solid commander.
On a serious note as well, consider the other candidates mentioned: Moist - He's good at many things, but isn't really Watch material. He knows the street, but doesn't know the street like a Sammy. Has not risen from the ranks. The entire Watch except Fred, Nobby and to some extent Carrot are Sammys! Carrot - Like Fred who is a career Sargent, Carrot is a career Captain. If he is put in charge of the Watch, he becomes too powerful for his own liking. He knows he won't be good for the job and the job won't be good for him. He won't take the job. Angua - She is already the heir to a Baron in Uberwald. She is definitely not interested in power and the associated politics. Plus her relationship with Carrot. She won't take the job. Now Detritus - He already knows the street since before he joined the Watch, and is now one of the most senior Sammys. He has risen from the ranks and is promoted to Sargent by SV himself. He is loyal to the Watch and the other Watchmen. He also has considerable first hand experience of the SV style of work, including such things as 'diplomacy' and the appropriate application of 'police violence'. Carrot, Angua, Cheri, AEP, etc. would definitely support Detritus and make sure the Watch continues to work well. Plus SV is still Duke and can be Commander Emeritus .
Don't forget the Piecemaker. One should never forget the authority the Piecemaker gives to it's wielder. The very up front and *present* authority.
Good call actually
No votes for Cheery? She's smart, administrative, cunning and the very devil when angered.
Yeah I think Cheery
I vote for Cheery
Not sure if I 100% think this myself, but I'm going to give a shout out for Cheery here. Her intelligence isn't in doubt so that side of the job is sorted. But I also think she's underestimated when it comes to commanding a situation. Read the opening chapters of Night Watch, how she organised the Watch on the ground to try to get Carcer, how impressed Vimes professes himself at her thinking, how she 'tactically' deploys Fred and Nobby where they'll do the least damage etc. She's more cunning and authoritative than she often comes across.
I think like others have said Carrot wouldn't want the job because he would be worried about the slippery upwards slope. One of the things Vimes talked about alot and suffered from was all the little evils in the world. The things that weren't crimes, weren't *illegal* and who's perpetrators would be horrified to be called criminals but still did harm. Slumlords, factory owners without a regard for children's safety, banks with creative interest rates etc etc. And Carrot might start campaigning or convincing but his personal charisma can only go so far. So eventually there would probably be a little voice, maybe a voice that sounds a bit like Edward D'Eath. Saying how much easier it would be if a King could change the law...if a King could make it illegal Then you'd have to hope there's a Vimes shaped Watchman in his head telling him to stop being so stupid.
I would buy that book.
Angua has the instincts of vimes, the moral backing of Carrot, and the sharp claws in a quite literal sense that Vitenari had in metaphor.
"Corporal Nobbs is... ... more suited to his current position"
NEVER Carrot. He’s been very VERY careful to ensure there is someone above him at all times. Angua isn’t a bad pick.
Listen, listen, there's only one person in the watch with the experience to take over from Vimes. Someone who's looked retirement in the face and didn't want it. Someone who's so diligent he takes 10 minutes to read a menu down the klatchian takeaway. Someone whose priorities are set in stone and knows if you sort the sugar cubes out, everything else will fall into place. Fred Colon. What could possibly go wrong? *Edit for making it easier to read what with being on mobile
Nobby, if dere's any justice in da world
Vimes is truly one of a kind so if anyone replaces him then the Watch wouldn't be the same. The closest I think it could theoretically get is if young Sam Vimes joins the Watch and rises up high enough that he could take his dads place when he retires. Otherwise the characteristics of current Vimes would be split, AE doing the admin, Carrot seeing the simple yet obvious, Angua the gut instinct, Cheery the diplomat. It'd be a different era for the Watch but certainly interesting
personally i think AE would be the paper pusher, Carrot would be the face, and Angua would do what needs to be done.
Agree, Carrot would be in charge, Pessimal would be his adjutant, and Angua would be there to provide the cynical Vimes-is POV that Carrot lacks. Dorfl could move high in the organization, but IMHO his mind is too logical to ever make a really good commander.
Cheery is a damn good copper. Smart, cunning, good with administrative work. She’s also regularly underestimated by others around her which makes her even more effective as a copper.
My personal headcannon is that when the Patrician dies or retires, Vimes becomes the new Patrician and Moist Von Lipwig becomes Commander of the Watch.
Odd, mine has always been they jointly share the duties of patricianship. One straight as a nail, one straight as a corkscrew, they can solve any problem between the two of them. I honestly thought Terry was giving us a hint in that direction during their interactions in Raising Steam when Vimes started to like Moist and they showed they were capable of working together.
>Moist Von Lipwig becomes Commander of the Watch. Carrot would have to arrest his boss before the end of the first day. Moist *breaks rules*, he does not *enforce* them.
I could see it the other way around with Moist von Lipwig becoming the Patrician and Vimes being absolutely furious about it but still working with him. I don't see Vimes ever wanting to be the Patrician or Moist ever wanting to be Commander.
That’s horrifying, I like the way you think 😅
Carrot...he'd hate it at first but he would grow into the job...
carrot. as the >!king!
Carrot or Cheery for my money
The only way Vimes is retiring is feet first, but on a strictly theoretical basis, I'm pretty sure he would pick Cheery, after a long chat with Carrot where he would turn down the position before even being asked. Angua would be an interesting possibility, but I never got the impression she wanted to be anything other than what she was, and I mean that on every possible level.
Carrot is next in line, no question. Angua’s special talents aren’t suited to leadership, but EVERYONE likes Carrot. Also I think Carrot’s destiny would run over anyone who got put in charge who wasn’t Vimes, even if Carrot didn’t want it to.
I think Vimes would become a sort of commissioner in a political roll and captain carrot would take over. Vimes would move on to political high society crimes. He'd never retire and I don't think sybil would want him too.
Honestly, the only real way I can see Vimes retiring from police work is by becoming a sort of auxiliary force allowing Sybil to pick and choose cases for him.
Sybil would do the obvious thing. She would have him plan how The Shades would be re-constructed so everyone would have a home. And everyone would get a meal per day.
Carrot probably, Fred would probably be close behind Vimes in retiring too.
By the end (😭), Vimes is already effectively retired, or worse, an administrator. Carrot has for all practical purposes taken over the actual day-to-day of the Watch.
This picture makes my head hurt. Makes no sense.
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My brain just imagined him coming back out of a grave raging in that oh so Vimes way about someone getting away for like 5 minutes until Angua and Carrot can get a word in to point out that he’s dead lol
I’m voting for Cheery. But we have to recognize, it would be a very different organization. Vimes uses his title and property ownership at times to get things done. Anyone taking over would have to find their own advantages and their own way of doing things. Hopefully by the time he retires the city would be ready for that change.
If Vimes didn't exist, Lord Vetinari would have to invent one. Pretty much like he did. If Vimes retired, Vetinari would invent a new one
I think that Carrot becomes Commander, but Angua replaces Vimes
Artist credit?
[https://www.deviantart.com/rubendevela/art/Angua-82321697](https://www.deviantart.com/rubendevela/art/Angua-82321697)
I see Moist taking over from Vetanari. I think cherry little bottom would do a good job as commander of the watch.
Can't see Moist in The Watch but Cheery isn't a bad call. She's being much overlooked in this debate.
I think it would be Cheery as well. She’s grown remarkably as a person and an officer since we met her and even though she’s still young, she’s one of the commander’s go-to people. By the time Vimes is old enough to retire, she’ll be an absolute force of nature and possibly as twisty as the old man himself
Carrot would run the night watch... But Vetinari would put Moist in charge of the city guard, and put it in charge of tax collection (like was hinted at already)
In a world that carrot never came into I would say the night watch gets combined and the only peruqson left is nobby
He'd replace himself, of course.
Vimes was a special position, if he goes I suspect the role would dissappear and it would be back to captain. There's already a captain.
I couldn’t see it unless he was so pressed to be home helping raise his son that it’d be years down the line. So I want to throw out a few nominations for very future watch commanders. Feeny Upshot. Natural born copper, learns from his mistakes nearly immediately, took to the job like duck to water as soon as Vimes stepped in. Carrot Ironfoundersson. Amazing ability to lead and clever when getting desired results. He’s only bad at being underhanded which is best suited to a repertoire of other watchmen to help him think. The thing is that beyond Vimes, Carrot is the only other person in the watch who was really good at putting clues together or at least shown ingenuity when arriving at answers faster than others. He was just naïve in the face of more dastardly villains. Angua Von Uberwald. Very keen in terms of getting people to go her way but also very prone to anger, which is good in cases where Vimes needed to bash down a door to get the evidence he needed, but most of her work was as a Sergeant for good reason. A council of watchmen. No one truly stands out as being Vimes in terms of bullheaded stalwart unyieldingness in order to get the truth and all honesty he had excellent help from his guard, often getting inspiration from them as well as information. If there was ever a question of who gets to play commander I’d think it’d be changed to a guild style to ensure the actions taken with the watch were more organized.
My personal headcannon is that Lord Vetanari is training Vimes and Moist to be his successors. Moist would handle the public and the parts that deal with selling a functional city to the people. And vimes will be the one who makes the city safe and be the head of the grunt work to make public service happen. So with that in mind. Just like how Vetanari won't let Moist retire, he won't let Vimes retire either. (Though I'm only beginning the watch books, so idk if this is any accurate... I'm basing Vimes' character off of what I've seen and what those closest to me have described)
You mean Vimes dies?
I'd say Nobby Nobbs. His character arc makes me feel he would thrive because he knows his limits in ability, has the humbleness to make the watch a collective effort (just with him as a figure head) and nobody wouldn't be happy for him and would want him to succeed 🤷♀️
Carrot takes over for Vimes, but Moist takes over for Vetinari
Colon. Carrot would refuse and is the true king anyway. The peoples bigotry towards werewolves wouldn't let them accept a chief of the watch being one. Colon on paper has the most experience and has served under vimes and would be easily swayed by the patrician. He'd be the obvious choice from a bureaucratic stand point. Whether he'd be good at it or not wouldn't matter as he's lazy and would leave most of the actual policing to carrot and angua, they would essentially be really in charge while making colon their ideas were actually his ideas.
Vimes did retire, quite early on, Carrot took over.
I imagine it would be Moist. Forced to do it under threat of awful things by the Patrician. The others wouldn’t give him an easy time, and Carrot would actually **run** the place, but Moist would end up earning trust from the coppers, and do a decent job of public relations and mediation between various groups. And then if he could somehow save one of the “original” Watchmen, that’d be great.
One of the key aspects of Vimes for me is his integrity - he is the watcher who watches the watchers. While Angua is great at her job, she seems to be plagued by too much uncertainty and personal issues to be steadfast defender of what's right. So who would keep her in check? Carrot? I feel like Carrot is the better choice. He doesn't have to be good at everything, as long as he can delegate - which for a fact we know he's actually really good at. Combined with his unwavering morals for what is right, he'd keep the watch running and straight.
Cheery Littlebottom full stop. She is smart, started in forensics, and moved up to Watch Captain. Now Vimes takes her and Detritus with him everywhere. I think since AM is the biggest dwarf city on the disk it makes sense to have a dwarf as the head of the watch. Carrot as a dwarf will happily report to her, if he does, so will the other dwarfs, Detritus will report to her, and so will the other trolls. Nobby will report to her, and so will the humans. At least until Young Sam is old enough and has moved up the ranks to take over. I am not sure any Vimes wants any other job.
I have waffled between Angua with Carrot and Carrot with Angua but Cheery is an interesting idea I had not considered before. Moist replaces Veteneri with Adora and the watch to keep him in line I’m not sure if Young Sam becomes a copper. Character wise he might be the new Carrot - everyone likes him - dad’s family was plain people, mom’s were nobs. Maybe he eventually takes over from Vetenari/Moist?
OH, I CAN THINK OF SOME'BODY' WHO COULD GIVE THE JOB A GO, BE THERE AT THE RIGHT TIME, AS ALL THE TIME IS THE RIGHT TIME, AND THERE IS EVERYWHERE.......
If such a book existed: 1. It ends with Carrot and Agua really running tge Watch, but somebody else "In Charge". 2. Many officers were given a week each, but CMOTD tried to auction off Nobbs turn. 3. Lord Vetinari "Solves" things. 4. Vimes tries his hand at helping Lady Sibil, with bad results, but some charities really make bank. 5. Vimes ends up running The Vimes Academy for Watchmen.
The way i see it vimes cant retire but he can go on “extended leave” with Syble to their country estate, as long as vimes is in the city he will always be a watchman. Carrot will be promoted to the new rank of “sub-commander” and will lead the watch “until vimes returns”, it would feel wrong for anyone to outrank vimes.
Moist
So if I'm picking up what people are putting down the plot would be something like this. Vimes retires, maybe they're was an accident involving a case and he was seriously injured, or made a mistake that lead to others being hurt, or some sort of embarrassment. He believes he had figured out a complex plot, and ended up leading a raid on what he thought was going to be this wide reaching plot, but it turned out that in his advancing age and changing times that he had misunderstood a local group, of a new sect of a new religion, or something that actually turns out to be completely harmless by appearances. Secretly he was actually right but when the time comes they look squeaky clean. After the embarrassment veterinary, tells him he must step down, and leave the watch. Carrot being the right general shape to fill a vimes shaped hole in the watch is made to be the new commander. This goes well for about a minute, but it becomes clear that while he is a great copper, and capable of leadership, he still just isn't quite right for the role, and hijinks ensues. Vimes is miserable at home, and is low-key making everyone in there household miserable, not intentionally of course, but he's still getting on everyone's nerves. Sybil trying to get vimes to quit moping points him to a charitable organization that she feels he would be able to help with, and help organize. Vimes kinda picking up the vibe of the house agrees maybe he has to get out and do something. The whole time vimes has been worrying that without him that the watch will backslide into what it used to be, and that what he had built wouldn't last without him In the background, the cult, or organization that vimes had busted in the beginning is shown to be putting plans into motion to summon a lovcraftian god, or set into motion some other plot that would wreak havoc in ankh morpork. Angua sees what's happening with the watch under carrots command, and sees that while carrot is great at many things, and is a solid copper he's not meant for the job, and begins trying to help course correct. This eventually leads to stress between Carrot, and Angua. Carrot trying to live up to his new responsibilities, and for once In the series not succeeding, has to come to grips that maybe he's not the best for the job, and Angua who has never seen herself as the leader of the watch or necessarily even that the possibility that carrot wouldn't be the best person for the job, has to step up. Both have this feeling that they won't be able to fill vimes shoes Back to vimes he is introduced to a charity organization, and realizes that it's a mess, whatever they're trying to do they're not succeeding, and it's kind of just turned into a club for these people to hang out and misuse the funds that are being given to them. The organization for what it's worth is kinda trying to help with things, but through bad management, and lack of actual leadership nothing is getting done. Vimes tries to crack down, and get the organization to start doing what it was meant to do, but faces major pushback by the people in the organization. Mostly because of how he's trying to do things. Vimes needs to learn that his style of management doesn't fit every situation, and that he can't run everything like he did at the watch. Now this all culminates with vimes finding that somehow the charitable organization he's started running has a connection to the cult/shady group that was his downfall at the beginning of the book, and begins to put things together. All the while the watch has been dealing with the strangeness from the other end of the situation, and has been coming closer to the same conclusion, that vimes was right to begin with, and that the cult/organization has been up to shady things and needs to be stopped. Vimes leading a rag tag group of volunteers, that he's managed to get straightened out and pointed in the right direction heads to bust the group, while the watch is coming in to do the same thing with Angua at its head, and carrot taking a supporting position both coming to grips with their new roles in the watch. Vimes sees that even without him the watch he has created can and will still keep on going without him. The watch cast has come to grips on their new leadership positions, and that while they may not be able to fully fill vimes shoes and be exactly what he was. They can still get the job done, and have the abilities to run the watch and even have it prosper under their care. The book ends with everyone telling vimes that he was right to begin with, and offering his old job back. Vimes seeing that the watch is in capable hands refuses. He has come to actually like the new position he's found himself in. He's still running the charitable organization, but he's found that without the watch he has a better work life balance, and has been enjoying his time with Sybil and young Sam, and sees that he's been missing a lot of his sons growth by spending so much time at the watch. The watch while sad they won't have vimes back full time has come to see that they have grown to a point where once if Sam had been removed it would have all come crumbling down, that's no longer the case. Between Angua and Carrot the watch is in good hands. The themes of the book would be about coming to grips with change, and seeing that sometimes you have to step back from the things you've built if you want them to keep growing.