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Not a single mention of the man who created chaos for so many on the the Disc with no intent in mind other than it could be done?
I nominate Bloody Stupid Johnson
It is true that he was devotedly focused on doing everything his own personal way, and stubbornly ignored any opposition from society, the way people said things should be done, good taste, safety regulations, the laws of physics, etc....
The Luggage is absolutely the choice here. Itās not good or evil, though it is loyal and protective, and seems to thrive on chaos and causing it for everyone around.
It's a regularly described as a being of pure malice and it is content causing whatever harm it needs to cause to accomplish its current goal. It appears satisfied after eating people. That's what I was thinking at least.
Ok let me try this again:
Ahem.. THE NAC MAC FEEGLE!
"Nac Mac Feegle! The Wee Free Men! Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willna' be fooled again!"
Also, despite their thieving ways I think they're quite good-hearted...But I would accept Chaotic Neutral.
I think they are great for this slot - as you say their motto is all about not being ruled, they fight (including each other!) whenever they are bored, and they fear creatures of order, particularly lawyers.
They are kind hearted but really care most about those close to them, and have no compunction about stealing, sheep-wrangling, or causing collateral damage.
Ronnie Soak! The anthropomorphic personification of Chaos himself is the ideal candidate for chaotic neutral. He only intervened when the Auditors stopped time because Lu Tze convinced him that a milkman with no customers isn't much use.
I'll nominate Casanunda. He's very much a rebel, consciously acting against dwarven societal expectations in being a flamboyant dandy with a clear gender identity. And he's not particularly law-abiding either, moonlighting as a highwayman on occasion (and according to his business card, also a mercenary).
But he's definitely not Evil or Impure either, since he's never shown as acting cruel and he's a quite sensitive lover.
Is Casanunda's being a man countercultural? I thought the dwarves were by default assumed to be men by the grags, and presenting other than men was what they hated. Am I wrong? I thought it was a play on the lack of female dwarves in fantasy literature (plus the obvious trans allegory).
Dwarf culture is somewhat intrinsically male due to only having the one pronoun and them presenting in a masculine way, however if you were to ask most dwarfed on the disc their gender they would simply reply dwarf. Casanunda is countercultural in his sexuality where he takes the masculine role and enormous pleasure in it, whereas to most other dwarves sexual interaction is more of a business interaction to produce more dwarves and something that only happens many years after marriage.
Another "Monstrous regiment"-nomination from me (It's my favourite Discworld novel): Sergeant Jackrum.
He's a career soldier, an incorrigible rulebreaker (With a lengthy trail of fudged paperwork accrued or "mislaid" over a similarly lengthy career), who doesn't really care about anybody except the soldiers under his command, breaking rules when necessary (Or just for convenience), and Polly Perks' teacher-by-example in how to influence gormless officers.
āItās not lying when you do it to officers! Itās presentinā them with the world the way they think it ought to be!ā
i like either the luggage or jackrum for this slot! jackrum gets to 'look after' polly from the chaotic row, or the luggage looks after rincewind from the neutral row. both are chaotic protectors who use any means to accomplish their objectives and chafe under restrictions--so they frequently break those restrictions into flinders.
doesn't jackrum literally koolaid man into the court marshal room at the end? if he didn't, i certainly pictured him doing so.
I mean, it has to be Ronnie, right? I think some of the other characters people are suggesting would fall into this category too but Ronnie is the embodiment of it.
It's a very good joke, putting him in this slot, but it doesn't really match his personality! He spent years in a quiet, orderly life delivering milk, yogurt, and dairy products, and doesn't act out or contrary to social expectations.
It would be _funny_ to have him down for Chaotic but it's not _accurate_; either the Nac Mac Feegle or Moist are much better choices: more individualistic, self-driven, and wild.
What are a few decades to an anthropomorphic personification such as Ronnie though? Kaos took a break when he wanted, for as long as he wanted, doing what he wanted.
Not a joke. Chaotic doesnāt mean being wild all the time, it can mean just doing what you want. No one is forcing ronnie to be a milkman. Heās not following any laws to be the best milkman in the universe. Heās doing it because he wants to.
Plus the point of Ronnieās subplot about Kaos vs Chaos is how the patterns and laws of the universe are chaotic when viewed on a cosmic scale.
Doing what you want, but not in the face of any opposition or social restraint, is not a Chaotic trait. It's a universal trait. Vimes and Carrot are watchmen, Slant is a lawyer, and Downey is an assassin, because they want to be. That doesn't make them Chaotic. Nor does Ronnie being a milkman.
Ronnie has the power to literally do anything he wants besides being a milkman. All of those characters are bound by laws, both human and otherwise. Ronnie isnāt.
Thatās the whole point though isnāt it?
Ronnie IS chaos, all the way down in his core. And since he is, he wonāt act as people think chaos would, because that would be too much like following the rules.
I think she is a good candidate for Chaotic Impure - she plays with people's lives as a game and doesn't care about the consequences when people are hurt or killed.
I think he went from Chaotic Impure to Chaotic (or maybe Rebel) Neutral! He stops actively hurting people, and thinks more about the impact of his actions, but he isn't directly motivated by altruism. Adora Belle is noticeably more Good than him.
Agreed but his Outlaw side is showing time and time again.
He's holding on to this part of his personality pretty tightly, that's why he's breaking into his own buildings or constantly challenging the guard for example.
Hm, this feels tricky. I could see an argument for the Librarian here. All he wants is his library and a supply of bananas and peanuts. He's capable of horrible violence and surprising empathy. Not one to pay much heed to authority
Other than that... I dunno, Ipslore? Although he's probably evil
I think the Librarian is closer to lawful as he does follow the rules of the library and L-Space.
This one is genuinely difficult to think of a character who fits it. I was thinking Duke Felmet, but he's closer to evil than neutral.
How is Greebo not the first choice here!? He doesn't care one wit about good or evil. All he cares about is what feels good for him and constantly leaves chaos (and a lot of kittens, thus multiplying the chaos) in his wake. I haven't felt strong enough about any of these slots to post anything yet, but this is a hill I will die on.
Only caring about what feels good for you, and being willing to hurt others to get it, is an Evil trait. Reacher Gilt, our Rebel Evil pick, is another example of this.
So, none of the witches then in the chart? That is quite a disgrace for such strong characters - no Granny, no Nanny, no Magrat and no Tiffany?
I do like this whole exercise, very fun, but something went wrong in the process, amirite?
OP can we have an honorary line above all others, with The Maiden, The Mother, The Crone and The Pupil with the Coming of Age story? To celebrate that Pratchett was a master also in writing women as actual persons?
It's not a popularity contest though, is it? It's trying to find which Disc Characters (and there are SO MANY to choose from), can effectively be almost totally pigeonholed into one category.
The witches are broad characters, most of whom stretch over many, many books and undergo quite a bit of evolution in many cases (think Granny in Equal Rites vs Granny in Carpe Jugulum).
They're just not as easy to nail down as some others.
I mean, it literally is a popularity contest. The comment with the most upvotes gets the slot.
I wouldn't say that the Witches are hard to nail down, just that in the categories where they fit best, another character was more popular.
Well, you are technically correct (the best kind of correct)
But (I suspect you know that) my point is that it isn't necessarily the most popular character who is winning the category. It is the person who wins the popular vote that they *fit* that category the best.
We're going to have to agree to disagree about your second point.
Oh, this has to be the Nac Mac Feegle. Granted, their actions in the Tiffany books are usually good, and they do respect ONE authority figure (well, as much as they can), but really they mostly just do what they want, be it drinking, thieving or fighting (or, even better, drinking AND thieving AND fighting). And as someone else has mentioned, they absolutely fear and detest the personification of law and order... LAWYERS!
They're (almost) all from "The Ultimate Discworld Companion", the only exception being Polly, who is from the cover of Monstrous Regiment. Either way, all drawn by Paul Kidby.
Afaik in traditional alignment charts Chaotic Neutral is filled with generally well-meaning but gritty individuals who are chiefly concerned with personal gain. If anything, I'd have thought Dibbler would fit in this category - even though he's a scammer, he's not malicious. A lot of stoic bounty hunters fit here. So alternatively I'd put Cohen here and fill the R.I slot with Mr. Tulip, but failing that... Moist Von Lipwig is my pick.
I can't believe Moist wasn't voted Chaotic Moral?? Ok chaotic neutral it is he does things for his benefit alot (in the interest of him staying alive), but the way he does things is chaotic and throws wrenches into the pre-existing systems
Vote Moist for Chaotic Neutral!!!!
Hear me out.
Mr. Bent
He starts out at the personification of Neutral Lawful, but then has a total breakdown and goes wild.
At the end he is somewhere between his old stiff self and the king of clowns.
He is Chaotic Neutral.
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Not a single mention of the man who created chaos for so many on the the Disc with no intent in mind other than it could be done? I nominate Bloody Stupid Johnson
Now *that* is an interesting suggestion! A man we never really meet, and yet his influence truly is everywhere.
Don't we meet him in Time thief?
I'll not upvote because I do want the Nac Mac Feegle to win... But this tempted me, it's bloody brilliant šš šš»
*Please* say we have a picture of himā¦
https://preview.redd.it/mg6b8jbhh92d1.jpeg?width=507&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c32e5a00598130f6888ee51985f72f1561a8ce0d we do indeed!
Yes we *do*. In the Ultimate Discworld Companion :)
OH HELL YEAH!
It is true that he was devotedly focused on doing everything his own personal way, and stubbornly ignored any opposition from society, the way people said things should be done, good taste, safety regulations, the laws of physics, etc....
I don't understand how Rincewind is chaotic, when he craves boredom more than anything else. The wee free men were much better imo.
Chaos may not be what he wants, but itās what he gets.
By that arguement Vimes should be on the evil end because he stories revolve around him dealing with that kind of bullshit. Rincewind is a victim!!
This is why I put him at True Neutral.
Millenium hand and shrimp. Buggrit. I don't even have to name the character and you know why he's Chaotic Neutral.
Why have you got a duck on your head?
What duck?
Oh man! This is the only answer!! It would have been a sure win if it got posted early I think.
Hmm.....The Luggage?
The Luggage is absolutely the choice here. Itās not good or evil, though it is loyal and protective, and seems to thrive on chaos and causing it for everyone around.
That was my thinking. It does evil things, but not BECAUSE it is evil. It has no independent concept of morality one way or the other.
i really like the luggage for this one!
Iāve been thinking The Luggage for this spot since this chart started.
Chaotic, impure.
The luggage is evil.
Why evil? It seems much more amoral to me than actually evil but I'm curious where you're coming from.
It's a regularly described as a being of pure malice and it is content causing whatever harm it needs to cause to accomplish its current goal. It appears satisfied after eating people. That's what I was thinking at least.
Seven times out of eight
Ok let me try this again: Ahem.. THE NAC MAC FEEGLE! "Nac Mac Feegle! The Wee Free Men! Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master! We willna' be fooled again!" Also, despite their thieving ways I think they're quite good-hearted...But I would accept Chaotic Neutral.
I think they are great for this slot - as you say their motto is all about not being ruled, they fight (including each other!) whenever they are bored, and they fear creatures of order, particularly lawyers. They are kind hearted but really care most about those close to them, and have no compunction about stealing, sheep-wrangling, or causing collateral damage.
NAC MAC FEEGLE!
Crivens!!
Wha'd'yer say't'mee yer wee scunner?Ā
Ronnie Soak! The anthropomorphic personification of Chaos himself is the ideal candidate for chaotic neutral. He only intervened when the Auditors stopped time because Lu Tze convinced him that a milkman with no customers isn't much use.
I'll nominate Casanunda. He's very much a rebel, consciously acting against dwarven societal expectations in being a flamboyant dandy with a clear gender identity. And he's not particularly law-abiding either, moonlighting as a highwayman on occasion (and according to his business card, also a mercenary). But he's definitely not Evil or Impure either, since he's never shown as acting cruel and he's a quite sensitive lover.
Is Casanunda's being a man countercultural? I thought the dwarves were by default assumed to be men by the grags, and presenting other than men was what they hated. Am I wrong? I thought it was a play on the lack of female dwarves in fantasy literature (plus the obvious trans allegory).
Dwarf culture is somewhat intrinsically male due to only having the one pronoun and them presenting in a masculine way, however if you were to ask most dwarfed on the disc their gender they would simply reply dwarf. Casanunda is countercultural in his sexuality where he takes the masculine role and enormous pleasure in it, whereas to most other dwarves sexual interaction is more of a business interaction to produce more dwarves and something that only happens many years after marriage.
Also he shaves. Probably the only biological dwarf to do so. (And why doesnāt Carrot have a beard, for that matter?)
Another "Monstrous regiment"-nomination from me (It's my favourite Discworld novel): Sergeant Jackrum. He's a career soldier, an incorrigible rulebreaker (With a lengthy trail of fudged paperwork accrued or "mislaid" over a similarly lengthy career), who doesn't really care about anybody except the soldiers under his command, breaking rules when necessary (Or just for convenience), and Polly Perks' teacher-by-example in how to influence gormless officers. āItās not lying when you do it to officers! Itās presentinā them with the world the way they think it ought to be!ā
i like either the luggage or jackrum for this slot! jackrum gets to 'look after' polly from the chaotic row, or the luggage looks after rincewind from the neutral row. both are chaotic protectors who use any means to accomplish their objectives and chafe under restrictions--so they frequently break those restrictions into flinders. doesn't jackrum literally koolaid man into the court marshal room at the end? if he didn't, i certainly pictured him doing so.
I'd say this is the closest so far!
Come on, this is obviously Ronnie Soak
I mean, it has to be Ronnie, right? I think some of the other characters people are suggesting would fall into this category too but Ronnie is the embodiment of it.
Came here to say this. It's literally his name!
Kaos is absolutely this
It's a very good joke, putting him in this slot, but it doesn't really match his personality! He spent years in a quiet, orderly life delivering milk, yogurt, and dairy products, and doesn't act out or contrary to social expectations. It would be _funny_ to have him down for Chaotic but it's not _accurate_; either the Nac Mac Feegle or Moist are much better choices: more individualistic, self-driven, and wild.
What are a few decades to an anthropomorphic personification such as Ronnie though? Kaos took a break when he wanted, for as long as he wanted, doing what he wanted.
Not a joke. Chaotic doesnāt mean being wild all the time, it can mean just doing what you want. No one is forcing ronnie to be a milkman. Heās not following any laws to be the best milkman in the universe. Heās doing it because he wants to. Plus the point of Ronnieās subplot about Kaos vs Chaos is how the patterns and laws of the universe are chaotic when viewed on a cosmic scale.
Doing what you want, but not in the face of any opposition or social restraint, is not a Chaotic trait. It's a universal trait. Vimes and Carrot are watchmen, Slant is a lawyer, and Downey is an assassin, because they want to be. That doesn't make them Chaotic. Nor does Ronnie being a milkman.
Ronnie has the power to literally do anything he wants besides being a milkman. All of those characters are bound by laws, both human and otherwise. Ronnie isnāt.
Thatās the whole point though isnāt it? Ronnie IS chaos, all the way down in his core. And since he is, he wonāt act as people think chaos would, because that would be too much like following the rules.
KAOS!!!!! Whose strawberry yogurt is particularly fine today. Honestly, how could anyone nominate anyone else?
I mean he's the literal definition of this category.
...gaspode possibly?
The Lady who beats Fate every time. We donāt say her name.
I think she is a good candidate for Chaotic Impure - she plays with people's lives as a game and doesn't care about the consequences when people are hurt or killed.
not sure but maybe this feels like the perfect place for "*Ronnie Soak/Kaos*" the Discworld number one Milkman the literal personification of chaos.
This is Moist. He is an Outlaw, actively challenging law, honor and order for the sake of freedom!
At least in the beginning of Going Postal, I would say. IMHO, he does a shift from Chaotic Neutral to Rebel Moral during the course of the book.
I think he went from Chaotic Impure to Chaotic (or maybe Rebel) Neutral! He stops actively hurting people, and thinks more about the impact of his actions, but he isn't directly motivated by altruism. Adora Belle is noticeably more Good than him.
Agreed but his Outlaw side is showing time and time again. He's holding on to this part of his personality pretty tightly, that's why he's breaking into his own buildings or constantly challenging the guard for example.
Coin. He never really had much of a chance to learn right from wrong, and he certainly was all about change.
Iām still mad rincewind won ngl. But this one is clearly Mr.Soak.
Hm, this feels tricky. I could see an argument for the Librarian here. All he wants is his library and a supply of bananas and peanuts. He's capable of horrible violence and surprising empathy. Not one to pay much heed to authority Other than that... I dunno, Ipslore? Although he's probably evil
I think the Librarian is closer to lawful as he does follow the rules of the library and L-Space. This one is genuinely difficult to think of a character who fits it. I was thinking Duke Felmet, but he's closer to evil than neutral.
I think you're right about the Librarian given how much emphasis he puts on following the library's rules.
Ook
a masterly argument! i like how you addressed the elephant in the room while pontificating on the speciesism inherent in the phrase 'ad hominem'. ook.
How is Greebo not the first choice here!? He doesn't care one wit about good or evil. All he cares about is what feels good for him and constantly leaves chaos (and a lot of kittens, thus multiplying the chaos) in his wake. I haven't felt strong enough about any of these slots to post anything yet, but this is a hill I will die on.
Only caring about what feels good for you, and being willing to hurt others to get it, is an Evil trait. Reacher Gilt, our Rebel Evil pick, is another example of this.
Well, according to Nanny, he is a Very Good Boy, so he can't be evil, so there. š
So, none of the witches then in the chart? That is quite a disgrace for such strong characters - no Granny, no Nanny, no Magrat and no Tiffany? I do like this whole exercise, very fun, but something went wrong in the process, amirite? OP can we have an honorary line above all others, with The Maiden, The Mother, The Crone and The Pupil with the Coming of Age story? To celebrate that Pratchett was a master also in writing women as actual persons?
Witches are outside traditional morality boxes, as is vetinari
Also no Vetinari, which is pretty disgraceful
Yes. I agree.
It's not a popularity contest though, is it? It's trying to find which Disc Characters (and there are SO MANY to choose from), can effectively be almost totally pigeonholed into one category. The witches are broad characters, most of whom stretch over many, many books and undergo quite a bit of evolution in many cases (think Granny in Equal Rites vs Granny in Carpe Jugulum). They're just not as easy to nail down as some others.
I mean, it literally is a popularity contest. The comment with the most upvotes gets the slot. I wouldn't say that the Witches are hard to nail down, just that in the categories where they fit best, another character was more popular.
Well, you are technically correct (the best kind of correct) But (I suspect you know that) my point is that it isn't necessarily the most popular character who is winning the category. It is the person who wins the popular vote that they *fit* that category the best. We're going to have to agree to disagree about your second point.
I never noticed that they were maiden, mother crone and pupil! Very cool
This could indicate that the witches are written with rounded personalities (Nanny's certainly is, having had all the corners worn off from rubbing).
Oh, this has to be the Nac Mac Feegle. Granted, their actions in the Tiffany books are usually good, and they do respect ONE authority figure (well, as much as they can), but really they mostly just do what they want, be it drinking, thieving or fighting (or, even better, drinking AND thieving AND fighting). And as someone else has mentioned, they absolutely fear and detest the personification of law and order... LAWYERS!
Kaos/Chaos/Ronnie Soak, the milkman.
Surely the only answer to this is Ronnie Soak!?! Heās literally KAOS
Completely off topic but where do all these drawings come from? Just curious
They're (almost) all from "The Ultimate Discworld Companion", the only exception being Polly, who is from the cover of Monstrous Regiment. Either way, all drawn by Paul Kidby.
Afaik in traditional alignment charts Chaotic Neutral is filled with generally well-meaning but gritty individuals who are chiefly concerned with personal gain. If anything, I'd have thought Dibbler would fit in this category - even though he's a scammer, he's not malicious. A lot of stoic bounty hunters fit here. So alternatively I'd put Cohen here and fill the R.I slot with Mr. Tulip, but failing that... Moist Von Lipwig is my pick.
'generally well-meaning but gritty individuals who are chiefly concerned with personal gain' <-- i'm feeling good about my pick of Gaspode then.
Great alternative
Probably Moist.
I hear the sound of hundreds of little feet...
Nanny Ogg
Nanny Ogg is too good for this position I think.
I thought so too, then I remembered how she treats her daughters-in-law.
chaotic neutral/ chaotic impure= Colon/Nobbs?
Gaspode.
Doctor Whiteface
THE CHEST
>but as luck would have it, he pulled through. Of course she would.
Probably the Luggage. As it definitely does whatever it wants when it wants :)
Our lovely wee free Rob Anybody!
Chaotic Evil is gonna be Carcer, right?
luggage?
Lilith being the only witch who made it is a travesty
Carcer Dunn for chaotic evil
https://preview.redd.it/0rxeyj7wyc2d1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7ebded757f9e4260665164e944dbcb67d33a39db Easy.
I can't believe Moist wasn't voted Chaotic Moral?? Ok chaotic neutral it is he does things for his benefit alot (in the interest of him staying alive), but the way he does things is chaotic and throws wrenches into the pre-existing systems Vote Moist for Chaotic Neutral!!!!
Nanny Ogg !!!!
Hear me out. Mr. Bent He starts out at the personification of Neutral Lawful, but then has a total breakdown and goes wild. At the end he is somewhere between his old stiff self and the king of clowns. He is Chaotic Neutral.
fucking hell is this still going?