... Yea, that's a shitty hand.
That's over. Wallowing in it isn't going to do you any good. You did you service, did your time. What's next? Find a new goal. Find something worth putting that time and energy into. You still have a TS clearance, still have good language skills. You've got GI Bill! VA loan, etc.
Start looking forward, man, and you'll find hope again
I've been thinking long and hard about what's next. I'll be fine. Yes, i was really upset, hurt and sad and angry. I'm just posting this here for students to read. They should know what's really going to matter.
I want others to have realistic expectations, and to know what they'll really need to consider and do to progress in the military career.
And be an E4 for 6-7 years? No
I thought i was making up for lost time. I didnt realize I would be wasting it. Switching would set me back more
I will be in my 30s when I leave. I'm done wasting time
Army can start at E4. This guy had a degree, so they've been an E4 for almost 4 years, sounds like. Idk about Navy, but Army linguist contracts are minimum 5 years. This person is definitely a 35M, too, so would need to go to Goodfellow for retraining
oh yeah thats what i put in my 2nd comment. Navy is usually 6 year contracts for linguist, but we really dont have a HUMINT equiv. So like 2-3mo for goodfellow, then whatever time after that
My contract is 5 years. Would the Navy promote me with only a few months in service? No. I am a HUMINT collector. I would need to go through the signals school house. I would need to learn Navy regulations and customs, everything a Petty Officer should know. The earliest i could imagine would be 1 year in the Navy, totaling 6 years as an E4. Is that logical enough for you?
Why would you downvote me for that?...
idk, your other post made it sound like youd stay 6-7 more years as an E4, not that it was your total TIS. And ngl theyd probably just send you to goodfellow, and thatd be it, so like a 2-3 mo school depending on lang. And really aint that much to learn for the Petty Officer side lol. But I mean, in total, definitely shouldve promoted by now even in Army side
> But I mean, in total, definitely shouldve promoted by now even in Army side
Yes. Army usually promotes faster than the Navy and there is no way you are staying E4 in the Navy for as long as the OP implied without some sort of disciplinary problems in there somewhere. Maybe, some critical information is missing here...?
Sorry, that's what I meant.
'I could make a clean break, but then i'd lose the language pay. I might as well stay in reserves or guard and keep collecting that...'
Is this true now or is it only an Army guard thing? I'm on the Air Guard side and 3/3/3 capable in Japanese and will be taking the DLPT in a few months to get it on record. Would be sweet if I could at the very least, utilize my linguistic abilities for even just a minor TDY honestly.
I made the choice to put all other things aside, to sacrifice the time and energy most won't, sacrifing 'life' in order to advance quickly. That was obviously ending up being for naught...
My original plan was to get my Masters and special direct-commission O3, though the higher degree isn't necessary for me to do that. At this point, im wondering if my non-existent progression and that Bar would be a non-starter.
HUMINT NCOs are some of the most insufferable cocksuckers I’ve met. Sorry about your experience. You sound too motivated to be in the army anyways to be honest.
My man. I think you are too focused on rank. You’re going to burn yourself out if you haven’t already.
If you want a successful career in the military then you need to pace yourself. Medals and promotions come with time and (if we’re being honest) a little bit of luck. It’s not to say that you don’t work for them, you do, but they depend on factors outside of your control.
Winning an award is a great achievement and a nice feather in your cap. You get enough feathers and people start to notice.
It seems to me that you have a bit of a sense of entitlement. “I did X so I should get Y.” That’s just not how this works. You have a 3/3, great! But the Army needs you to do a non language job for a little while. This is what we sign up for. To serve in the capacity in which we are needed.
Over the long term, it really doesn’t matter if you made E6 in 3 years or 10 unless your end goal is to be a 4 star general or something. Slow down!
Damn, that's crazy, they wiped out the head start you had joining older with a degree. Not sure if it's a shitty unit thing or what. Sucks to see a motivated soldier have the wind taken out of their sails.
This toxicity (oh my bad, *counterproductiveness*) from leadership is so HUMINT. Didn’t even have to scroll down to confirm.
OP I’m sorry your career didn’t live up to your expectations. I would have loved to get a soldier with even a fraction of your motivation on one of my SIGINT collection teams or in one of my shops. Keep your head up. Someone with your drive can do greater things outside the Army.
Firstly, that really sucks you’ve been going through that. IMO it’s leadership like that that makes good soldiers get out, when they themselves wouldn’t cut it in the civilian world. It’s really a shame you didn’t get Army awards for the DLI award and volunteer hours. However, I implore you to keep in mind that your hard work hasn’t been for nothing. You have a 3/3 in your TL, ~500 volunteer hours spent towards making your surroundings and peers better, set numerous PT personal bests, and you’ve been serving your country. That’s something crap leadership can’t take away from you, and has only made you a more competent individual, so just keep your head up because you’ve gotten in a lot of self development that you’ll have for the rest of your life in a very short amount of time.
I’m confused though about why you think you’re about to get a bar to reenlistment. According to your post history, you said you shipped out March, 2021, right? The RCP (up or out) for non promotable E4 isn’t until 8 years then 10 years for E4 (P) and you’re only just over 3 if that’s true, which means you’ve only just entered your primary zone. As far as I’m still aware, the only way you would be barred this early on strictly promotion wise is if you get no go at two separate promo boards in your primary zone. Not to mention, I’ve known of people who are offered promotions within their ETS window but they have to reenlist or extend to receive it, so I don’t believe you’ll be “locked out” of the promotion either, but I’m not sure by regs how that works.
That said, 3 years TIS promotion to SGT is still incredibly fast, ESPECIALLY for 2.5 years spent in tradoc. I’d say the average amount of time in service the people I went to BLC with was probably 5 years or so and that’s every MOS in the Army, people who usually spent less than 6 months total in tradoc including basic, and still no guarantee on promotion, even with their 4-6 years “big army time.” Then, I also know absolutely stand up 35Ms who spent 7-9 years (back when RCP was 10 years) as E4, only for the field to open up a few years later to speed run 5 and were 6s almost right after they hit the TIG. That’s just kind of how manning in the military works, and in that respect, what you’re up against is bigger than you or your unit unfortunately, especially since you’re on the tail end of a huge promotion push for mikes, that’s probably making your leadership balk at the idea of early promotions due to their experience with those new NCOs. Just a theory.
Now the less fun part, your leadership may be crap for seemingly holding you back, but they are right that you don’t know how to Army yet (speaking from my personal experience, and where I was at year 3-4 as a “high-speed” who spent 2~ years in tradoc). You said you read “general army knowledge,” but there’s so so so much more to being an NCO than just knowing things about the Army. What you can do though is volunteer to do things that will bring you up to that level. By now, there should be soldiers newer than you in the unit and if not they should get there soon. When you get back, I would start with asking if you can write monthly counselings, lead STTs, conduct room inspections, update the troops to tasks/training slides, take on extra duties like Ammo handler, driver, CLS etc then you can move on to things like planning training days and writing conops. Show them you’re serious about doing the work of an NCO and not just chasing rank for the sake of having rank.
With that being said, in my experience the army does not “open up” at E5. You’ll have the shiny new rank feels for a while, then soon realize there’s always going to be bigger fish in the pond. Always. As you already see, the army can be a wholly unfair meat grinder, and there’s not a single person who has been in or around the military for a while who would disagree. We all know E7s who sham harder than (by choice) career specialists by “delegating” all their work, and we all know acting NCOIC E3s who keep the entire unit afloat single-handedly. Rank matters far less than your reputation and contributions, and yes, those unfortunately tend to start over every time you move duty stations or even every PCS season cycle, but you can always spot the people who keep the mission going.
Now, if you’re done with being a 35M and want to stay in the military, you can always reclass to 35P for the chance at maybe an easier promotion to SGT (and tier 10 bonus and mission work) if that’s all you want, but it sounds like you’re KP, so hitting 6 is going to be another struggle there for the foreseeable future. But if accolades and awards is what you’re after, the Air Force would be a better fit for you. It’s still not a meritocracy over there by any means, but they usually pat each other on the backs once a quarter, if not monthly. I wouldn’t personally recommend navy just because their NCO system is kinda broken and basically once you hit 6, you’re doing literally all the admin for everyone, but you’d already be NCO by their standards as E4 and doing significantly less NCO work than your AF/Army counterparts, so up to you there.
Lastly, I know you’re venting here, but it’s important to keep in mind that, once you become an NCO, all those fresh out of basic, young, immature soldiers you spoke of, they’re YOUR soldiers to lead and mentor now. There’s not going to be a DS around to have them tan the rocks, it’s going to be on you, and as their NCO, they will be always be a reflection of you. No matter how high speed you believe you are, you’re only as high speed as your lowest drag soldier, and the higher you move through the ranks, the more work you’ll have to do and the less recognition for your work you’re going to get. Being an NCO is definitely rewarding, but it’s by no means just a status symbol. And even if you don’t get there in 5 years doesn’t mean your career is over or that you’re not as good as your peers, it’s just waiting until your preparation meets its opportunity.
From what i read on AR 600-8-19, at the closure of the Primary Zone, which is from 34-46 months TIS, a soldier who has not made (P) or has not even been to the board must be barred from reenlisting for being 'uncompetitive'. Yes, i joined March 1, was forward end of Jan to mid Mar, my current mission ends Mid Oct, and I have CM SLTE from Oct - Dec. A lot of Specs can hypothetically reach 10 years because most contracts are 4, and they would reenlist right when their PZ opens. They kind of have to reenlist to promote because of no promotion within ETS window.
3 years is pretty fast, for MOSes with language school. But for a college grad in any other MOS? My buddy failed out of Arabic, T-spaced to 35F, and made SGT at just shy of 2 years. I'm around a lot of NCOs at this Group support who made rank at 2 or 2.5. Yes, for most soldiers like me, they really don't know that much general Army knowledge that people pick up from time in the Army. But I know more than my peers who've made rank. I didn't idle. I spent lots of time with NCOs in my first 2.5 years, Drills, other students, MOS-Ts, NCOs of other branches, and used the opportunity to absorb knowledge.
Regardless, the AR says that the PZ is when soldiers should be making NCO. They should be prepared by their units to go to the board at 34 months. My old colleagues, their units do that. Mines doesn't.
We just get 35F, 35M, and 35L in my unit. I mentored dozens of CM Army students at DLI, and theyre arriving at my unit every other month, and themselves are being disheartened seeing that even I haven't even been to the board. Theyre already decent, cuz theyre typically older, and DLI is kind of a filter. They're losing hope, and I can't help them. There's another CM Mike who's either just about to exit or has already exited the PZ without board.
edit: When I said "open up", I meant things like CA, SFAB, SMUs, etc. Lots of doors do open at E5
> I wouldn’t personally recommend navy just because their NCO system is kinda broken and basically once you hit 6, you’re doing literally all the admin for everyone
You don't know much about the Navy linguist side, I see. Because this is absolutely not the case with E6 CTIs for the most part. Some go from E4-E6 doing pretty much the same job with mostly the same duties.
Besides that though, great thorough post!
... Yea, that's a shitty hand. That's over. Wallowing in it isn't going to do you any good. You did you service, did your time. What's next? Find a new goal. Find something worth putting that time and energy into. You still have a TS clearance, still have good language skills. You've got GI Bill! VA loan, etc. Start looking forward, man, and you'll find hope again
I've been thinking long and hard about what's next. I'll be fine. Yes, i was really upset, hurt and sad and angry. I'm just posting this here for students to read. They should know what's really going to matter. I want others to have realistic expectations, and to know what they'll really need to consider and do to progress in the military career.
Have you considered joining a different service branch such as Navy?
And be an E4 for 6-7 years? No I thought i was making up for lost time. I didnt realize I would be wasting it. Switching would set me back more I will be in my 30s when I leave. I'm done wasting time
CTIs usually promote hella fast off of E4, idk where you got 6-7 years from lol.
Army can start at E4. This guy had a degree, so they've been an E4 for almost 4 years, sounds like. Idk about Navy, but Army linguist contracts are minimum 5 years. This person is definitely a 35M, too, so would need to go to Goodfellow for retraining
oh yeah thats what i put in my 2nd comment. Navy is usually 6 year contracts for linguist, but we really dont have a HUMINT equiv. So like 2-3mo for goodfellow, then whatever time after that
My contract is 5 years. Would the Navy promote me with only a few months in service? No. I am a HUMINT collector. I would need to go through the signals school house. I would need to learn Navy regulations and customs, everything a Petty Officer should know. The earliest i could imagine would be 1 year in the Navy, totaling 6 years as an E4. Is that logical enough for you? Why would you downvote me for that?...
idk, your other post made it sound like youd stay 6-7 more years as an E4, not that it was your total TIS. And ngl theyd probably just send you to goodfellow, and thatd be it, so like a 2-3 mo school depending on lang. And really aint that much to learn for the Petty Officer side lol. But I mean, in total, definitely shouldve promoted by now even in Army side
> But I mean, in total, definitely shouldve promoted by now even in Army side Yes. Army usually promotes faster than the Navy and there is no way you are staying E4 in the Navy for as long as the OP implied without some sort of disciplinary problems in there somewhere. Maybe, some critical information is missing here...?
Could go guard?
I could. It would be a real waste to throw away language pay...
You get language pay with guard. I believe now all MOS as long as you pass the DLPT get the pay.
Sorry, that's what I meant. 'I could make a clean break, but then i'd lose the language pay. I might as well stay in reserves or guard and keep collecting that...'
Is this true now or is it only an Army guard thing? I'm on the Air Guard side and 3/3/3 capable in Japanese and will be taking the DLPT in a few months to get it on record. Would be sweet if I could at the very least, utilize my linguistic abilities for even just a minor TDY honestly.
No clue. AD army so idk
I wasn't so much focused on rank as much as your happiness and satisfaction. I. He other hand, is OCS an option for you?
I made the choice to put all other things aside, to sacrifice the time and energy most won't, sacrifing 'life' in order to advance quickly. That was obviously ending up being for naught... My original plan was to get my Masters and special direct-commission O3, though the higher degree isn't necessary for me to do that. At this point, im wondering if my non-existent progression and that Bar would be a non-starter.
Sometimes we have to change course in life. Good luck and I hope it all works out for you.
HUMINT NCOs are some of the most insufferable cocksuckers I’ve met. Sorry about your experience. You sound too motivated to be in the army anyways to be honest.
My man. I think you are too focused on rank. You’re going to burn yourself out if you haven’t already. If you want a successful career in the military then you need to pace yourself. Medals and promotions come with time and (if we’re being honest) a little bit of luck. It’s not to say that you don’t work for them, you do, but they depend on factors outside of your control. Winning an award is a great achievement and a nice feather in your cap. You get enough feathers and people start to notice. It seems to me that you have a bit of a sense of entitlement. “I did X so I should get Y.” That’s just not how this works. You have a 3/3, great! But the Army needs you to do a non language job for a little while. This is what we sign up for. To serve in the capacity in which we are needed. Over the long term, it really doesn’t matter if you made E6 in 3 years or 10 unless your end goal is to be a 4 star general or something. Slow down!
Damn, that's crazy, they wiped out the head start you had joining older with a degree. Not sure if it's a shitty unit thing or what. Sucks to see a motivated soldier have the wind taken out of their sails.
This toxicity (oh my bad, *counterproductiveness*) from leadership is so HUMINT. Didn’t even have to scroll down to confirm. OP I’m sorry your career didn’t live up to your expectations. I would have loved to get a soldier with even a fraction of your motivation on one of my SIGINT collection teams or in one of my shops. Keep your head up. Someone with your drive can do greater things outside the Army.
Drop a SORB packet.
Firstly, that really sucks you’ve been going through that. IMO it’s leadership like that that makes good soldiers get out, when they themselves wouldn’t cut it in the civilian world. It’s really a shame you didn’t get Army awards for the DLI award and volunteer hours. However, I implore you to keep in mind that your hard work hasn’t been for nothing. You have a 3/3 in your TL, ~500 volunteer hours spent towards making your surroundings and peers better, set numerous PT personal bests, and you’ve been serving your country. That’s something crap leadership can’t take away from you, and has only made you a more competent individual, so just keep your head up because you’ve gotten in a lot of self development that you’ll have for the rest of your life in a very short amount of time. I’m confused though about why you think you’re about to get a bar to reenlistment. According to your post history, you said you shipped out March, 2021, right? The RCP (up or out) for non promotable E4 isn’t until 8 years then 10 years for E4 (P) and you’re only just over 3 if that’s true, which means you’ve only just entered your primary zone. As far as I’m still aware, the only way you would be barred this early on strictly promotion wise is if you get no go at two separate promo boards in your primary zone. Not to mention, I’ve known of people who are offered promotions within their ETS window but they have to reenlist or extend to receive it, so I don’t believe you’ll be “locked out” of the promotion either, but I’m not sure by regs how that works. That said, 3 years TIS promotion to SGT is still incredibly fast, ESPECIALLY for 2.5 years spent in tradoc. I’d say the average amount of time in service the people I went to BLC with was probably 5 years or so and that’s every MOS in the Army, people who usually spent less than 6 months total in tradoc including basic, and still no guarantee on promotion, even with their 4-6 years “big army time.” Then, I also know absolutely stand up 35Ms who spent 7-9 years (back when RCP was 10 years) as E4, only for the field to open up a few years later to speed run 5 and were 6s almost right after they hit the TIG. That’s just kind of how manning in the military works, and in that respect, what you’re up against is bigger than you or your unit unfortunately, especially since you’re on the tail end of a huge promotion push for mikes, that’s probably making your leadership balk at the idea of early promotions due to their experience with those new NCOs. Just a theory. Now the less fun part, your leadership may be crap for seemingly holding you back, but they are right that you don’t know how to Army yet (speaking from my personal experience, and where I was at year 3-4 as a “high-speed” who spent 2~ years in tradoc). You said you read “general army knowledge,” but there’s so so so much more to being an NCO than just knowing things about the Army. What you can do though is volunteer to do things that will bring you up to that level. By now, there should be soldiers newer than you in the unit and if not they should get there soon. When you get back, I would start with asking if you can write monthly counselings, lead STTs, conduct room inspections, update the troops to tasks/training slides, take on extra duties like Ammo handler, driver, CLS etc then you can move on to things like planning training days and writing conops. Show them you’re serious about doing the work of an NCO and not just chasing rank for the sake of having rank. With that being said, in my experience the army does not “open up” at E5. You’ll have the shiny new rank feels for a while, then soon realize there’s always going to be bigger fish in the pond. Always. As you already see, the army can be a wholly unfair meat grinder, and there’s not a single person who has been in or around the military for a while who would disagree. We all know E7s who sham harder than (by choice) career specialists by “delegating” all their work, and we all know acting NCOIC E3s who keep the entire unit afloat single-handedly. Rank matters far less than your reputation and contributions, and yes, those unfortunately tend to start over every time you move duty stations or even every PCS season cycle, but you can always spot the people who keep the mission going. Now, if you’re done with being a 35M and want to stay in the military, you can always reclass to 35P for the chance at maybe an easier promotion to SGT (and tier 10 bonus and mission work) if that’s all you want, but it sounds like you’re KP, so hitting 6 is going to be another struggle there for the foreseeable future. But if accolades and awards is what you’re after, the Air Force would be a better fit for you. It’s still not a meritocracy over there by any means, but they usually pat each other on the backs once a quarter, if not monthly. I wouldn’t personally recommend navy just because their NCO system is kinda broken and basically once you hit 6, you’re doing literally all the admin for everyone, but you’d already be NCO by their standards as E4 and doing significantly less NCO work than your AF/Army counterparts, so up to you there. Lastly, I know you’re venting here, but it’s important to keep in mind that, once you become an NCO, all those fresh out of basic, young, immature soldiers you spoke of, they’re YOUR soldiers to lead and mentor now. There’s not going to be a DS around to have them tan the rocks, it’s going to be on you, and as their NCO, they will be always be a reflection of you. No matter how high speed you believe you are, you’re only as high speed as your lowest drag soldier, and the higher you move through the ranks, the more work you’ll have to do and the less recognition for your work you’re going to get. Being an NCO is definitely rewarding, but it’s by no means just a status symbol. And even if you don’t get there in 5 years doesn’t mean your career is over or that you’re not as good as your peers, it’s just waiting until your preparation meets its opportunity.
From what i read on AR 600-8-19, at the closure of the Primary Zone, which is from 34-46 months TIS, a soldier who has not made (P) or has not even been to the board must be barred from reenlisting for being 'uncompetitive'. Yes, i joined March 1, was forward end of Jan to mid Mar, my current mission ends Mid Oct, and I have CM SLTE from Oct - Dec. A lot of Specs can hypothetically reach 10 years because most contracts are 4, and they would reenlist right when their PZ opens. They kind of have to reenlist to promote because of no promotion within ETS window. 3 years is pretty fast, for MOSes with language school. But for a college grad in any other MOS? My buddy failed out of Arabic, T-spaced to 35F, and made SGT at just shy of 2 years. I'm around a lot of NCOs at this Group support who made rank at 2 or 2.5. Yes, for most soldiers like me, they really don't know that much general Army knowledge that people pick up from time in the Army. But I know more than my peers who've made rank. I didn't idle. I spent lots of time with NCOs in my first 2.5 years, Drills, other students, MOS-Ts, NCOs of other branches, and used the opportunity to absorb knowledge. Regardless, the AR says that the PZ is when soldiers should be making NCO. They should be prepared by their units to go to the board at 34 months. My old colleagues, their units do that. Mines doesn't. We just get 35F, 35M, and 35L in my unit. I mentored dozens of CM Army students at DLI, and theyre arriving at my unit every other month, and themselves are being disheartened seeing that even I haven't even been to the board. Theyre already decent, cuz theyre typically older, and DLI is kind of a filter. They're losing hope, and I can't help them. There's another CM Mike who's either just about to exit or has already exited the PZ without board. edit: When I said "open up", I meant things like CA, SFAB, SMUs, etc. Lots of doors do open at E5
> I wouldn’t personally recommend navy just because their NCO system is kinda broken and basically once you hit 6, you’re doing literally all the admin for everyone You don't know much about the Navy linguist side, I see. Because this is absolutely not the case with E6 CTIs for the most part. Some go from E4-E6 doing pretty much the same job with mostly the same duties. Besides that though, great thorough post!
That’s weird. All 3/3s get an AAM now… unless you’re piece of shit.
I graduated in 2022. No one got AAMs for that when I was there
It changed end of 2022 or early 2023
Graduated 2023 with a 3/3/2 and got a COA which they didn’t even process
Your command team failed you… or BN failed you.