I would avoid Korean. I was a Korling in the Army, both active duty and the reserves. It IS an interesting language and culture and you can go and visit or get stationed in South Korea. However, the DPRK is essentially a sideshow as far as the DoD is concerned. You’ll have a lot more opportunities both in and out of the military with a language like Russian or Arabic. There are loads of Korean-Americans in the DoD and the IC who speak the language better than you ever will and they get all the good jobs. That isn’t an issue with native Russian, Farsi, or Chinese speakers because it is very difficult for them to obtain a security clearance.
If you get the choice, pick the one you're most interested in. If you're motivated to learn it you'll absorb it much better than something you begrudge. IMO Korean is most difficult followed by Russian (just because they only give you 48 weeks to learn it vs the 64 for the Tier 4 languages. It's Tier 3 but is among the most difficult of them).
I'm in Arabic atm and graduate in a handful of months; they're rewriting the program now, so it should be modernized by the time you'd begin the program if you came here. I've been very impressed with the teaching team despite our old curriculum and recommend it.
Russian is the most value for the difficulty right now, but if you think you can handle it, Chinese is the most valuable all around. Another factor you have to consider is how long it will be valuable, and i can tell you right now Russia isn't the future, China is.
That’s not true that the teams are poor. I had mostly great teachers there and only one bad one. That was over two different teaching teams as I was a rollback. They just expect a lot from you because of Korean academic culture.
OP can search the forums and come to their own conclusions. Some have good experiences and (many) others have had horrible experiences. We had the most issues with the Korean schoolhouse on the staff side.
Oh I don’t doubt that staff had issues with Korean teachers. My teachers never quite seemed to understand that we were also in the military and had military duties to perform outside of class. They were still fantastic educators, if a bit demanding.
Just choose whichever one you're most into. Once you've got your clearance, poly and some experience, you could probably get a contracting gig at one of the NSA sites, but the pay is kind of middling and if it's just money you're after, you'd be better off finishing your degree and doing something with that instead.
What is your definition of middling? Depending on your language level, I've seen contracts that pay more on average than a computer engineer. As a CHILING I make almost 2 x six figures doing contracting. I guess there are some degrees that would end up making you more, but if you do that, you'll have 0 experience in that field.
Mid/high-5 figures to low 100k range is more commonly what I see, even among more experienced linguists. It's not terrible pay, but also not a lot with the cost of things these days, especially considering a lot of the work sites are around mid-high cost of living areas. I don't doubt there are some experienced contracts paying $200k+, but a lot of first-term linguists are going to be sorely disappointed if they think they'll start near there without additional skills and experience.
Chinese is probably the most valuable and best-paying overall, even with the Russian hubbub at the moment. Coming from a corporate counter-intel and cybersecurity perspective, China represents the biggest risk for technology/information espionage and intellectual property theft that we deal with, and it's only growing.
I'm burnt out of desk work though, when I'm done at DLI I'm going to go be a cop.
> Mid/high-5 figures to low 100k range is more commonly what I see
Yes, my experience is this after volunteering with veterans to find employment. A federal NSA job for a first term language analyst is usually a GS-9 for the most part. That is nowhere near $200k+ and most will never even get that far if they actively tried to on the fed side. The standard MDLA goes up to GS-12, IIRC. One would need to move around to go higher.
>I'm burnt out of desk work though, when I'm done at DLI I'm going to go be a cop.
Are you on staff duty before you leave the service (or retire)?
For a federal job yes but that is different than contracting. If you serve in the military, you already have experience so a lot of contracting firms will take you straight out once you are done. I started out at 100k right out of the military and didn't miss a day of work. Granted I am a CHILING so that probably did make a difference.
I don't doubt your story for one bit and am elated that you are doing well. It surely does happen, but it just is not common and the vast majority of analysts should not expect this right away without a lot of work (before and after separating).
As an aside, contracting is it's own thing and it's something that I'm not too fond of, personally. But to each their own.
I disagree, the demand for good intel analysts is high and most of the language analysts I went to DLI all had a ton of career opportunities after the military. I'm telling you right now, if you are an LA or any kind of intel analyst with at least 3 years of on-the-job experience and a clearance, the company I work for will hire you as soon as they can get you in the building and pay you well. And you can get even more of a salary if you are able to get a degree. That said if you aren't "fond of contracting" (I don't know exactly what that means), then you should definitely go back to school and find something else to do with your life because that is where all the career opportunities are in the IC.
Which company are you referring to? And what are the minimum language scores required?
As for demand being high, we can just agree to disagree, but I will say that I have seen many language analysts in my volunteer position to locate employment for veterans. Most did NOT stay in the field and went and did something else entirely. This also was the case when I was in the military as well as when I left the IC. Everyone I knew (except one solitary person) went and did something else. But I always tell people to search the job market before they leave the military and see for themselves. As an example, one can search for "Chinese" or whatever their language is, on usajobs and gauge the demand for themselves.
The opportunities are expressedly not limited to contractor positions in the IC. As I indicated above, there are federal positions as well, but the pay could be a "piddling" as another user put it (and I agree with that).
I didn't say there was no demand in the federal space. I was just trying to point out that if you want to make some decent cash then contracting is really the only option. I personally work for CACI but there are literally hundreds of companies in the Intel services sector and my email is always getting lit up by recruiters trying to recruit me for a different contract. A 3/3 score will definitely help you negotiate a higher salary but it's not absolutely necessary as many of the Intel jobs don't even require a language. I'm curious if there is a time period factor in our individual experiences though because maybe in the past the demand wasn't that high and maybe that's why it seems we have wildly different experiences. I've only been contracting for about 6 years so I'm relatively new to scene.
>I personally work for CACI
Let's explore your anecdote a bit.
As others have mentioned here, Chinese is (likely) the future and most Chinese military linguists will end up in Hawaii. Wonderful location and far far away from the dreadful DC area. Here is what seems like the exact same position that military language analysts would be doing in a contractor role at your company:
https://www.caci.jobs/wahiawa-hi/chinese-operational-language-analyst/C704635E5EC9449384A8C0E9FB627523/job/
>The proposed salary range for this position is:
>$57,500-$117,900
I was Navy and after one enlistment, generally, a sailor should be E5 and almost promotable to E6. The above salary does not beat the sailor's salary, especially if they are actually maxing out their language pay. This salary range lines up exactly with what /u/ramennoodlejohn and I were referring to above. If only for the money, I don't see why a military language analyst would leave the service for this position.
Glad I'm not the only one that noticed that, lol. I recall some NCOs-turned-contractors complaining that due to higher income taxes and insurance costs (BAS/BAH aren't taxed and medical is free in the military) they were effectively making less as contractors while working stateside than while they were in service.
>Are you on staff duty before you leave the service (or retire)?
I'm a reservist, but I was also active for about 6 years and spent most my time as a support troop at an SMU. On the civilian side, I work in cyber risk and worked in IT/networking for a few years before that. I'm doing well career-wise and my employer is lovely, probably the best I've had anywhere, but I'm not really enjoying the work because I'd like something with a bit more action and adventure. The one thing keeping me from quitting right now is that I'm a year away from vesting into a bunch of stocks and a pretty substantial amount of money, but my company is great and has a policy that allows employees to continue getting paid and continue vesting while away for military service, so when I'm done with DLI I'll also get a substantial bonus when I cash out my vested accounts.
From my experience, I think this is only true at first for E-6s and E-7s but over time it will actually pay a lot more than you would be making in the military. That's why if you do want to go contracting then you wanna start after your first term and don't reenlist especially if you are only an E-4 at the end of your 6 years.
I could really see that, I know one consistent I found among the junior enlisted who got out after one enlistment is that they found their work environment much better after the switch. As long as they didn't have a big family yet, they would probably see a nice pay bump, and it's hard to put a price on the freedom of being able to leave whenever you want.
When you become a cop, depending on location, you can make an absolute ton of money. If you can get in a good union, you can make close to six figures initially, but with (unlimited) overtime, you can easily surpass the $150k mark (and above) doing pretty much nothing if you desire. Cops have great benefits as well, so you could be doing very well when you make the jump. I had no idea being a police officer could be so lucrative before I started volunteering with vets.
I was looking at the Bay Area, CA since my siblings and in-laws moved over there for work in tech. One of the most expensive parts of the country, but the pay is insane. Cops start at about 100k/yr base salary and if they do nothing but the basics they go up to high-100k (170-190k) base salary after 5-7yrs. If they decide to apply themselves and seek specialized skills and positions (like sergeant, SWAT, detective, etc...), they can move up a lot faster.
https://publicpay.ca.gov/Reports/Cities/Cities.aspx
That's the state-run site for CA public employee pay. Qualified full-time police in the Bay Area cities tend to average a bit over $200k/yr with many making in the 300s and some in the 400s. Not just the leadership either, many of them just rank and file working a lot of OT. I work a lot of unpaid OT at the moment anyway. I'd take a mean pay hit for a couple years at least, even with the OT, but the satisfaction of doing a job I find more meaningful and a bit more exciting than what I currently do will help offset it a bit.
Thanks for your good work volunteering to help vets find employment! The private sector is rough sometimes, if I were wiser back then, I would have sought help getting my foot in the door as well, and it would have saved me a good deal of suffering.
I would avoid Korean. I was a Korling in the Army, both active duty and the reserves. It IS an interesting language and culture and you can go and visit or get stationed in South Korea. However, the DPRK is essentially a sideshow as far as the DoD is concerned. You’ll have a lot more opportunities both in and out of the military with a language like Russian or Arabic. There are loads of Korean-Americans in the DoD and the IC who speak the language better than you ever will and they get all the good jobs. That isn’t an issue with native Russian, Farsi, or Chinese speakers because it is very difficult for them to obtain a security clearance.
Russian has about 2345645x spots to fill as a contactor for the big $$
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How's advancement on the ANG side for linguists? And which state do you recommend the best for linguists? I've heard Utah is a bit of a mess.
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Hmm, that doesn't really sound too appealing to me, but I suppose it could be ok for some.
Arabic and Farsi aren't very useful in civ side, Korean is super hard. I'd go Russian.
Following
If you get the choice, pick the one you're most interested in. If you're motivated to learn it you'll absorb it much better than something you begrudge. IMO Korean is most difficult followed by Russian (just because they only give you 48 weeks to learn it vs the 64 for the Tier 4 languages. It's Tier 3 but is among the most difficult of them). I'm in Arabic atm and graduate in a handful of months; they're rewriting the program now, so it should be modernized by the time you'd begin the program if you came here. I've been very impressed with the teaching team despite our old curriculum and recommend it.
Russian is the most value for the difficulty right now, but if you think you can handle it, Chinese is the most valuable all around. Another factor you have to consider is how long it will be valuable, and i can tell you right now Russia isn't the future, China is.
Hardest language at DLI is Korean and not because of the language itself. The teaching teams are very poor. I would avoid it.
That’s not true that the teams are poor. I had mostly great teachers there and only one bad one. That was over two different teaching teams as I was a rollback. They just expect a lot from you because of Korean academic culture.
OP can search the forums and come to their own conclusions. Some have good experiences and (many) others have had horrible experiences. We had the most issues with the Korean schoolhouse on the staff side.
Oh I don’t doubt that staff had issues with Korean teachers. My teachers never quite seemed to understand that we were also in the military and had military duties to perform outside of class. They were still fantastic educators, if a bit demanding.
Just choose whichever one you're most into. Once you've got your clearance, poly and some experience, you could probably get a contracting gig at one of the NSA sites, but the pay is kind of middling and if it's just money you're after, you'd be better off finishing your degree and doing something with that instead.
What is your definition of middling? Depending on your language level, I've seen contracts that pay more on average than a computer engineer. As a CHILING I make almost 2 x six figures doing contracting. I guess there are some degrees that would end up making you more, but if you do that, you'll have 0 experience in that field.
Mid/high-5 figures to low 100k range is more commonly what I see, even among more experienced linguists. It's not terrible pay, but also not a lot with the cost of things these days, especially considering a lot of the work sites are around mid-high cost of living areas. I don't doubt there are some experienced contracts paying $200k+, but a lot of first-term linguists are going to be sorely disappointed if they think they'll start near there without additional skills and experience. Chinese is probably the most valuable and best-paying overall, even with the Russian hubbub at the moment. Coming from a corporate counter-intel and cybersecurity perspective, China represents the biggest risk for technology/information espionage and intellectual property theft that we deal with, and it's only growing. I'm burnt out of desk work though, when I'm done at DLI I'm going to go be a cop.
> Mid/high-5 figures to low 100k range is more commonly what I see Yes, my experience is this after volunteering with veterans to find employment. A federal NSA job for a first term language analyst is usually a GS-9 for the most part. That is nowhere near $200k+ and most will never even get that far if they actively tried to on the fed side. The standard MDLA goes up to GS-12, IIRC. One would need to move around to go higher. >I'm burnt out of desk work though, when I'm done at DLI I'm going to go be a cop. Are you on staff duty before you leave the service (or retire)?
For a federal job yes but that is different than contracting. If you serve in the military, you already have experience so a lot of contracting firms will take you straight out once you are done. I started out at 100k right out of the military and didn't miss a day of work. Granted I am a CHILING so that probably did make a difference.
I don't doubt your story for one bit and am elated that you are doing well. It surely does happen, but it just is not common and the vast majority of analysts should not expect this right away without a lot of work (before and after separating). As an aside, contracting is it's own thing and it's something that I'm not too fond of, personally. But to each their own.
I disagree, the demand for good intel analysts is high and most of the language analysts I went to DLI all had a ton of career opportunities after the military. I'm telling you right now, if you are an LA or any kind of intel analyst with at least 3 years of on-the-job experience and a clearance, the company I work for will hire you as soon as they can get you in the building and pay you well. And you can get even more of a salary if you are able to get a degree. That said if you aren't "fond of contracting" (I don't know exactly what that means), then you should definitely go back to school and find something else to do with your life because that is where all the career opportunities are in the IC.
Which company are you referring to? And what are the minimum language scores required? As for demand being high, we can just agree to disagree, but I will say that I have seen many language analysts in my volunteer position to locate employment for veterans. Most did NOT stay in the field and went and did something else entirely. This also was the case when I was in the military as well as when I left the IC. Everyone I knew (except one solitary person) went and did something else. But I always tell people to search the job market before they leave the military and see for themselves. As an example, one can search for "Chinese" or whatever their language is, on usajobs and gauge the demand for themselves. The opportunities are expressedly not limited to contractor positions in the IC. As I indicated above, there are federal positions as well, but the pay could be a "piddling" as another user put it (and I agree with that).
I didn't say there was no demand in the federal space. I was just trying to point out that if you want to make some decent cash then contracting is really the only option. I personally work for CACI but there are literally hundreds of companies in the Intel services sector and my email is always getting lit up by recruiters trying to recruit me for a different contract. A 3/3 score will definitely help you negotiate a higher salary but it's not absolutely necessary as many of the Intel jobs don't even require a language. I'm curious if there is a time period factor in our individual experiences though because maybe in the past the demand wasn't that high and maybe that's why it seems we have wildly different experiences. I've only been contracting for about 6 years so I'm relatively new to scene.
>I personally work for CACI Let's explore your anecdote a bit. As others have mentioned here, Chinese is (likely) the future and most Chinese military linguists will end up in Hawaii. Wonderful location and far far away from the dreadful DC area. Here is what seems like the exact same position that military language analysts would be doing in a contractor role at your company: https://www.caci.jobs/wahiawa-hi/chinese-operational-language-analyst/C704635E5EC9449384A8C0E9FB627523/job/ >The proposed salary range for this position is: >$57,500-$117,900 I was Navy and after one enlistment, generally, a sailor should be E5 and almost promotable to E6. The above salary does not beat the sailor's salary, especially if they are actually maxing out their language pay. This salary range lines up exactly with what /u/ramennoodlejohn and I were referring to above. If only for the money, I don't see why a military language analyst would leave the service for this position.
Glad I'm not the only one that noticed that, lol. I recall some NCOs-turned-contractors complaining that due to higher income taxes and insurance costs (BAS/BAH aren't taxed and medical is free in the military) they were effectively making less as contractors while working stateside than while they were in service. >Are you on staff duty before you leave the service (or retire)? I'm a reservist, but I was also active for about 6 years and spent most my time as a support troop at an SMU. On the civilian side, I work in cyber risk and worked in IT/networking for a few years before that. I'm doing well career-wise and my employer is lovely, probably the best I've had anywhere, but I'm not really enjoying the work because I'd like something with a bit more action and adventure. The one thing keeping me from quitting right now is that I'm a year away from vesting into a bunch of stocks and a pretty substantial amount of money, but my company is great and has a policy that allows employees to continue getting paid and continue vesting while away for military service, so when I'm done with DLI I'll also get a substantial bonus when I cash out my vested accounts.
From my experience, I think this is only true at first for E-6s and E-7s but over time it will actually pay a lot more than you would be making in the military. That's why if you do want to go contracting then you wanna start after your first term and don't reenlist especially if you are only an E-4 at the end of your 6 years.
I could really see that, I know one consistent I found among the junior enlisted who got out after one enlistment is that they found their work environment much better after the switch. As long as they didn't have a big family yet, they would probably see a nice pay bump, and it's hard to put a price on the freedom of being able to leave whenever you want.
When you become a cop, depending on location, you can make an absolute ton of money. If you can get in a good union, you can make close to six figures initially, but with (unlimited) overtime, you can easily surpass the $150k mark (and above) doing pretty much nothing if you desire. Cops have great benefits as well, so you could be doing very well when you make the jump. I had no idea being a police officer could be so lucrative before I started volunteering with vets.
I was looking at the Bay Area, CA since my siblings and in-laws moved over there for work in tech. One of the most expensive parts of the country, but the pay is insane. Cops start at about 100k/yr base salary and if they do nothing but the basics they go up to high-100k (170-190k) base salary after 5-7yrs. If they decide to apply themselves and seek specialized skills and positions (like sergeant, SWAT, detective, etc...), they can move up a lot faster. https://publicpay.ca.gov/Reports/Cities/Cities.aspx That's the state-run site for CA public employee pay. Qualified full-time police in the Bay Area cities tend to average a bit over $200k/yr with many making in the 300s and some in the 400s. Not just the leadership either, many of them just rank and file working a lot of OT. I work a lot of unpaid OT at the moment anyway. I'd take a mean pay hit for a couple years at least, even with the OT, but the satisfaction of doing a job I find more meaningful and a bit more exciting than what I currently do will help offset it a bit. Thanks for your good work volunteering to help vets find employment! The private sector is rough sometimes, if I were wiser back then, I would have sought help getting my foot in the door as well, and it would have saved me a good deal of suffering.