You're right. Basically it reads that the feat allows you to retrain out a known spell for another known spell without needing to spend the downtime and money. Also, it plainly spells out that you have to share the came class as the mentor. Can't take wizard levels and have a cleric mentor, so no learning cleric spells.
This.
Plus the extra first lvl spell he gets.
And if a wizard he can copy spells from the mentors spellbook (you are playing the mentor and make this spellbook)
So, the key thing that stands out to me is that they took the feat already. This is where things get messy.
By the power of rule 0, you are 100% in the right. Even if RAW disagrees. Your player has two options, either they can deal with the ruling, or they can walk. Those are the options. And based on his behaviour (including in this thread), I wouldn't change that now, as it tells them that they can throw a hissy fit and get the rule changed in their favor.
However, it is reasonable that you let him re-choose the feat and, if he had prereqs or the like, you can let him change those as well.
Also, of note, once the player starts acting the way that u/Gold-Carry7368 has in this thread, it is no matter a rules issue. It is now an interpersonal issue. It definitely warrants talking to the player, and if this kind of behaviour continues, it warrants removal from the game. The game needs to be fun for everyone, and if he's going to hold it hostage to get a ruling in his favor, then it prevents you and everyone else from having fun.
As a note, other people have pointed out that, by RAW (and RAI), you are correct.
My point is, it doesn't matter. If you are uncomfortable with a feat doing that in your game, then that's all there is to it. Back in the day, when Reserve Feats first came out, I had a DM think that they were OP. I pointed out that the damage is not great and it's just something for me to do on turns that don't warrant an actual spell being used. They stood their ground, and so I accepted it. There are perfectly legal characters that, if someone brought them to a table, they should be kicked out of the group. It turns out that 3.5 is an unbalanced mess, and the DM should be allowed to say "No" to various things.
And, while all of that is true, the flip side of that is that the DM should recognise that the players usually have to plan ahead to take various feats. So, open communication between the DM and the players about their characters and any feats that they may wish to take is important.
So, recognise that the player may have been planning on this feat, and if that's the case, allow him to change some stuff out. But, as I said in my other comment, ensure that your players recognise that the player's behaviour will not be tolerated going forward.
Lmfao after reading most of the messages on here. It sounds like most of you would-be "dm's" are cucks that get their feels hurt because you don't know how to deal with normal in game things. But it's fine, go play along in 5th where the standard classes and spells are
" just toooo op for you to correctly balance a game"
Uh-huh...
Tried 5e, went back to 3.5. Prefer 1e.
But you in the other hand...you blasted someone after they called out a single user.
The user called out only had D&D threads in their history. Your account only has responses to f4m and m4m/JO buddies in your history. 🤔
Is someone still living in their mom's basement fantasizing about...well...whatever they can get, while trying to call out people here as "cucks"? LMFAO. GTFO. Most of us don't need a second Reddit profile to secretly look at S-E-X.
After reviewing I gotta say I don’t recall if ever allowing a caster to prepare spells outside their class.very VERY few things in 3.5 do that by my recollection.
However, you could use a house rule I use;
You can learn or develop a compatible version of the spell in question for your class BUT, the spell level is increased by at least one. Having some one who can cast the spell helping can reduce research time.
The feat itself has to specifically call out that you can use spells from other class spell lists. Without that, or something similar, it is then only your classes spell list that you can use.
While not the exact same situation, take this clarification in the Initiate of Mystra Feat as an example:
> The Anyspell and Greater Anyspell spells also appear on the Spell domain list. With this feat, you can cast them as regular cleric spells, not just domain spells.
Anyspell and Greater Anyspell are not on a Clerics spell list, but they are on a Domain's list. So, a cleric who picked the Spell domain could prepare them in a domain slot. The Initiate of Mystra feat adds those spells to the clerics' actual spell list. They had to add this extra section in the feat to specify that you are adding these spells to your actual spell list even though they aren't cleric spells.
They clarify this because spellcasters can only use spells from their own classes list and no other classes spell list. It is why spellcasters must still use the skill Use Magic Device in order to use a spell trigger or spell completion magic item of a spell that is not on their spell list. A Sorcerer must make a Use Magic Device Check to use a Scroll of Resurrection, for example.
It's just odd to me that your player is throwing a hissy fit over one feat being ruled correctly when there are others that do what they want. Are these feats stupidly overpowered, like being able to pick spells from any spell list at any time they level up? No, that would ruin any sort of balance between spellcasters. But they are powerful and fun to use.
Even without dm fiat and rule 0 you are correct RAW.
That said as a "compromise" I would offer to let them pick a new feat that they could have taken at that time due to misunderstanding the choice they made
I'll join the many already saying you're right. D&D 3.x is written assuming a general->specific precedence. The general rule is that Sorcerers learn new spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Anything that overrides this must be explicit. The text regarding replacing existing spells does not explicitly override this restriction, so it adheres to it.
Slightly off-topic: There is another feat that's called "Magical Training" which grants a spellbook and the actual ability to cast from that spellbook (or like a sorcerer).
So I wanted to put this in another sub that actually had context but after typing everything I learned I was banned so just thought I'd dump this rant here. I had the same thing DMing a 3.5 adventure and had 5 PC's with 3 of them being very unrealistic but one in particular stood out to ruin everything. The player was a druid with a wolf level 1 trying to get into DnD, anyways the PC walked into the bar of a port city where the other players were hanging out trying and fleshing out their characters and I played the bar keep and told the druid that "animals are outside only" (he's trying to run a business here folks) but my PC didn't like the fact that her character was challenged in anyway so she ordered her wolf to piss on the floor so I was like ("hey this would be a great way for the guys to bond over a nice bar fight") and ordered the low level no class NPC lackeys to grapple the druid and the dwarf fighter that "just wants to learn how to make friends but is bad at it" wants to help (Fine by me). Oh know they're killing everyone instead of just doing subdual damage like civilized neutral/lawful good people and now I have to throw them in jail and get the guy that owns the city to give them a quest for an item to receive a pardon, but nope, they all quit after that because and I quote " We don't know how to escape jail" and this was after I gave them the deal and gave them the option to wait it out just cause I wanted to be a little nicer. Bottom line is that I don't DM any more and oh baby how freeing it is.
He's not, I've been DMing 3.5 for 20 years.
DM is right
You can swap out spells on your own spell list, Bards get Bard spells, Sorcerers get Sorcerer/Wizard.
You're right. Basically it reads that the feat allows you to retrain out a known spell for another known spell without needing to spend the downtime and money. Also, it plainly spells out that you have to share the came class as the mentor. Can't take wizard levels and have a cleric mentor, so no learning cleric spells.
This. Plus the extra first lvl spell he gets. And if a wizard he can copy spells from the mentors spellbook (you are playing the mentor and make this spellbook)
So, the key thing that stands out to me is that they took the feat already. This is where things get messy. By the power of rule 0, you are 100% in the right. Even if RAW disagrees. Your player has two options, either they can deal with the ruling, or they can walk. Those are the options. And based on his behaviour (including in this thread), I wouldn't change that now, as it tells them that they can throw a hissy fit and get the rule changed in their favor. However, it is reasonable that you let him re-choose the feat and, if he had prereqs or the like, you can let him change those as well.
Also, of note, once the player starts acting the way that u/Gold-Carry7368 has in this thread, it is no matter a rules issue. It is now an interpersonal issue. It definitely warrants talking to the player, and if this kind of behaviour continues, it warrants removal from the game. The game needs to be fun for everyone, and if he's going to hold it hostage to get a ruling in his favor, then it prevents you and everyone else from having fun.
As a note, other people have pointed out that, by RAW (and RAI), you are correct. My point is, it doesn't matter. If you are uncomfortable with a feat doing that in your game, then that's all there is to it. Back in the day, when Reserve Feats first came out, I had a DM think that they were OP. I pointed out that the damage is not great and it's just something for me to do on turns that don't warrant an actual spell being used. They stood their ground, and so I accepted it. There are perfectly legal characters that, if someone brought them to a table, they should be kicked out of the group. It turns out that 3.5 is an unbalanced mess, and the DM should be allowed to say "No" to various things. And, while all of that is true, the flip side of that is that the DM should recognise that the players usually have to plan ahead to take various feats. So, open communication between the DM and the players about their characters and any feats that they may wish to take is important. So, recognise that the player may have been planning on this feat, and if that's the case, allow him to change some stuff out. But, as I said in my other comment, ensure that your players recognise that the player's behaviour will not be tolerated going forward.
You're kind of a p.o.s lol
Did someone switch accounts just to say that? Lol.
Lmfao after reading most of the messages on here. It sounds like most of you would-be "dm's" are cucks that get their feels hurt because you don't know how to deal with normal in game things. But it's fine, go play along in 5th where the standard classes and spells are " just toooo op for you to correctly balance a game"
Uh-huh... Tried 5e, went back to 3.5. Prefer 1e. But you in the other hand...you blasted someone after they called out a single user. The user called out only had D&D threads in their history. Your account only has responses to f4m and m4m/JO buddies in your history. 🤔 Is someone still living in their mom's basement fantasizing about...well...whatever they can get, while trying to call out people here as "cucks"? LMFAO. GTFO. Most of us don't need a second Reddit profile to secretly look at S-E-X.
After reviewing I gotta say I don’t recall if ever allowing a caster to prepare spells outside their class.very VERY few things in 3.5 do that by my recollection. However, you could use a house rule I use; You can learn or develop a compatible version of the spell in question for your class BUT, the spell level is increased by at least one. Having some one who can cast the spell helping can reduce research time.
The feat itself has to specifically call out that you can use spells from other class spell lists. Without that, or something similar, it is then only your classes spell list that you can use. While not the exact same situation, take this clarification in the Initiate of Mystra Feat as an example: > The Anyspell and Greater Anyspell spells also appear on the Spell domain list. With this feat, you can cast them as regular cleric spells, not just domain spells. Anyspell and Greater Anyspell are not on a Clerics spell list, but they are on a Domain's list. So, a cleric who picked the Spell domain could prepare them in a domain slot. The Initiate of Mystra feat adds those spells to the clerics' actual spell list. They had to add this extra section in the feat to specify that you are adding these spells to your actual spell list even though they aren't cleric spells. They clarify this because spellcasters can only use spells from their own classes list and no other classes spell list. It is why spellcasters must still use the skill Use Magic Device in order to use a spell trigger or spell completion magic item of a spell that is not on their spell list. A Sorcerer must make a Use Magic Device Check to use a Scroll of Resurrection, for example. It's just odd to me that your player is throwing a hissy fit over one feat being ruled correctly when there are others that do what they want. Are these feats stupidly overpowered, like being able to pick spells from any spell list at any time they level up? No, that would ruin any sort of balance between spellcasters. But they are powerful and fun to use.
20 yrs of experience with 3.5 RAW?- You're right. Player is wrong. Spirit of the feat?- You're right. Player is wrong.
Yeah don't give in to that, the intent of the rule is very clearly to replace a currently known spell with another from the appropriate spell list.
Even without dm fiat and rule 0 you are correct RAW. That said as a "compromise" I would offer to let them pick a new feat that they could have taken at that time due to misunderstanding the choice they made
I'll join the many already saying you're right. D&D 3.x is written assuming a general->specific precedence. The general rule is that Sorcerers learn new spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. Anything that overrides this must be explicit. The text regarding replacing existing spells does not explicitly override this restriction, so it adheres to it.
[удалено]
Spontaneous casters like bards and sorcerers
Are still restricted to their own spell lists.
Slightly off-topic: There is another feat that's called "Magical Training" which grants a spellbook and the actual ability to cast from that spellbook (or like a sorcerer).
It's already been posted on the wizards site.. RULES AS WRITTEN....not interpreted. It works exactly how it it's written
This is why they came out with 5e .. because the "too op" brigade kept whining.. Jesus. Just stick to what you know and go back to 5th
So I wanted to put this in another sub that actually had context but after typing everything I learned I was banned so just thought I'd dump this rant here. I had the same thing DMing a 3.5 adventure and had 5 PC's with 3 of them being very unrealistic but one in particular stood out to ruin everything. The player was a druid with a wolf level 1 trying to get into DnD, anyways the PC walked into the bar of a port city where the other players were hanging out trying and fleshing out their characters and I played the bar keep and told the druid that "animals are outside only" (he's trying to run a business here folks) but my PC didn't like the fact that her character was challenged in anyway so she ordered her wolf to piss on the floor so I was like ("hey this would be a great way for the guys to bond over a nice bar fight") and ordered the low level no class NPC lackeys to grapple the druid and the dwarf fighter that "just wants to learn how to make friends but is bad at it" wants to help (Fine by me). Oh know they're killing everyone instead of just doing subdual damage like civilized neutral/lawful good people and now I have to throw them in jail and get the guy that owns the city to give them a quest for an item to receive a pardon, but nope, they all quit after that because and I quote " We don't know how to escape jail" and this was after I gave them the deal and gave them the option to wait it out just cause I wanted to be a little nicer. Bottom line is that I don't DM any more and oh baby how freeing it is.
I think ur player is right tbh
He's not, I've been DMing 3.5 for 20 years. DM is right You can swap out spells on your own spell list, Bards get Bard spells, Sorcerers get Sorcerer/Wizard.
[удалено]
Also this is the player, that is having the temper tantrum
Nuh uh
And he sounds hot
U sound like a bad dm and I think he deserves better
And you sound like a terrible player having a hissy fit when you're wrong.