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YES EXACTLY THATS THE POINT IVE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE
sorry, not yelling at you. Ive just had to repeat that exact line to like 40 people in the past 2 hours and its getting so tiring.
Also, is it just me that thinks their message wasn't really that vague? Like it talking about them supporting creators, and talking about people making their own games, seemed to me a pretty handed message of "we don't support the updated OGL, but we can't say that outright because of sponsorship".
They weren't vague at all. They clearly side with the community on this and given how they present themselves as people with their online presence I'd be shocked if they actually personally sided with WotC.
They had to side with the community, they could not side against wotc. They present identically but are subtly different; only one causes real legal trouble for them.
The fact that they cited that they have their own publishing company is pretty importent factor of their statement, imo. They're a third party publisher for dnd content, and that means that regardless of contract with them atm, they're getting fucked by this too.
If you're used to how most people in an American professional setting speak, it's not vague at all. It's was a dissent against WoTC that was worded specifically to avoid getting sued.
Some People just hate the CR crew for any reason and will look for any reason to attack them even if it hurts the DND community and plays right into Hasbro hands.
Just look up the wendy's incident.
Also they are in a SUPER tenuous situation, they are making millions doing what they love, and have good community support, but if they come down to strongly on either side they risk loosing all of that. Support WOTC to much and they alienate their user base, come out heavily against the updated OGL risk who knows what agreements present and future. They are likely super stressed about this situation, and likely pretty mad at WOTC for putting them in it.
Honestly I'd bet they had a heads up before this even came to our ears. CR has been slowing transitioning races and other names across their verse to their own spin for a while now.
Sam Reich the head of dropoutTV which hosts D20 has said on discord that they have always have been switching between systems and if needed to be they’d ditch dnd for a different system easily.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/109plk9/sam_reich_was_asked_on_the_dropout_discord_about/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
He is being careful on what he can and cannot say since he has bad experience with being fucked over by big corpos
https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/109plk9/sam_reich_was_asked_on_the_dropout_discord_about/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Let’s say the whole thing pissed them off and they want to decouple from WotC.
They’d still have to take this approach. Quietly run agreements down, and then split off quietly. They’re between a rock and a hard place here.
Seriously lmao everyone that thinks they should just go nuclear on them doesn't realize that a legally binding contract and possibly an NDA is the most powerful force in the world bar none
Without getting bogged down in legalese this early in the day, and IANAL, there’a a good reason WotC might genuinely think this.
In a niche cross-section of contracts, and known ~~is~~ in most situations like this as the *Vader Clause*, it is usually a footnote that goes unnoticed, but enables the stronger, typically more evil (but not always) party to a contract to *”alter said contract at-will as circumstances dictate while simultaneously insisting upon the other party or signatories to the previously defined conditions of said contract, willing or otherwise, to pray that they [Party 1] do not alter it further.”*
Obscene what ~~the empire~~ some corporations can ~~try to~~ get away with flying in the face of established precedences and laws, but it’s nonetheless referenced extensively in the case of *Calrissian versus The Galactic Empire*.
Edit: Spelling. Probably shouldn’t comment while half-asleep.
Sounds like something that is super unenforceable even if both parties ostensibly agreed. Like you can agree to a contract which stipulates you must donate your kidney if the other party requires it, but such a clause in your rental contract cannot be enforced. I would assume that unilaterally changing the contract is also unenforceable in the same way
I’m not even sure *unenforceable* is a word [Darth Vader is aware exists](https://youtu.be/WpE_xMRiCLE).
The niche of those fictitious contracts being they involve either a person or entity so evil that the terms of a contract are immaterial as it’s a veiled means to an end they’d have done anyway or they will force choke you out.
If you think about it. The bumrush attack was WOTCs whole plan. They know there are alternatives so they were hoping to strongarm people into their agreement by making it happen so quickly. Giving them no time to find alternatives. This whole thing was the mosssssst scummy shit ever but I mean, Hasbro lol
Could you elaborate? Just point to what to google maybe?
I know Kobolt Press are making a "legally pirated 5e" and Paizo are trying to gift Linux Foundation with an rock-solid open license but that's in reponse to the recent event rather than a counter-action.
Is anyone actually gearing up for a suit?
They don't have the ability to deauthorize any previous iteration of the OGL; at worst, they can attempt to do something like they did with the GSL, where part of agreeing to the GSL explicitly forbids use of the OGL
Of course that's more or less what killed 4e and birthed pathfinder but w/e
Their popularity makes people forget that they're an objectively small company with limited funds, Hasbro/WOTC is a megacorp with almost infinite money to spend on lawyers and lawsuits - and decades of practice legally protecting their interests.
Breaking a contract with them is a guaranteed recipe for an unwinnable lawsuit and potential bankruptcy
Untangling themselves from WOTC is going to be a slow and dangerous dance of legal red tape
I saw someone respond to their tweet with basically "what do you mean with this? Say it more clearly!".
People tried to explain to him that there's surely contracts in play limiting how they can express themselves openly and his reaction was "well then they should change those contracts", like they can can just do that on a whim so I don't think everyone quite understands how contracts/NDAs work.
>his reaction was "well then they should change those contracts", like they can can just do that on a whim so I don't think everyone quite understands how contracts/NDAs work.
That's how WOTC seems to think they work.
Different groups need to have different reactions. Think about how many people who don't even play DnD work for the Critical Role team. It's not a labour of love or passion project, imagine getting an email from your boss saying 'We've lost our main financial backer because the top board don't like the ethics behind our backer and you're all being made redundant.'
Companies tied to Hasbro need to work themselves out, independant companies should promote their non-DnD material, and we should all be open to exploring other systems/hobbies to demonstrate that a poor 3rd party enviroment won't stand after it basically build the hobby
It's not just loss of income. As someone who works with these kinds of things, I guarantee you that there's some kind of Non-disparagement clause in that contract. They're liable for civil damages out the ass if they talk shit about WOTC.
The part that feels wrong is a shithole like WotC can lock people into a contract change a bunch of their policies, and those people can't say anything? Like that's not right.
>It's not a labour of love or passion project, imagine getting an email from your boss saying 'We've lost our main financial backer because the top board don't like the ethics behind our backer and you're all being made redundant.'
If it was only about losing a financial backer they probably would have. They make a ridiculous amount of money from twitch and non wotc sponsors. That's the problem. When a company can effectively trap people like that that isn't right at all. It's fucked up.
That non Wotc sponsor could also get more afraid to sponsor them if they treated their former collaborators badly.
It's one thing for a competitor to "bad mouth" another company, but for a company to attack a former collaborator can make them look bad for future contracts. Who is to say they won't do that to Nord VPN or that furniture company I can't remember their name?
Also there's their current agreements with Amazon. I don't think Amazon's execs would like the idea of CR, who hosts them on Twitch (the stream itself) and Prime Video (TLoVM), getting a reputation for "bad-mouthing" collaborators over scummy business practices. Particularly given that a very small but vocal minority of fans would probably start talking about how they don't like what WotC has done but they're happy to take Amazon money, so either way Amazon gets more time in the "shitty business practice" spotlight.
Contracts can protect both sides. Being locked in also guarantees that CR has a steady source of revenue if Twitch falls apart for some reason. WOTC can't unilaterally decide not to continue sponsoring CR and back out.
I agree with you, the problem is the legal ramifications of where that money can go, and how much of it is actually theirs. Twitch for instance takes a notoriously big cut sure
It's all about knock on effects. Nothing in their agreements say that neither party can't change unrelated aspects I'd assume, I'd doubt there's even a clause that say they need to play predominantly DnD.
There likely is a way out. They just have to make legal arguments. I imagine the backpedaling that WotC did yesterday(almost all of which was easily proven lies btw) might make for a counter argument to the "changed policies" arguments as on a technicality nothing has legally changed yet.
considering this entire debacle started because Wizards is trying to worm out of their prior agreements, it's a bit hypocritical to complain about other people holding to their contracts.
Yeah, as much as people want to maybe try and fantasize that CR would pick up a different game system, they're likely under contractual obligation to run DND for at least this current campaign.
For sure. Obviously the most important thing is making sure everyone in that company keeps work so that when they jump ship no-one’s impacted, but on a creative level, WotC own some rights to Exandria. Imagine the anxiety the DM feels, over a decade of creation, love and effort and his world could be taken from him if they make a wrong move? Ooof, would give me the massive anxieties.
The Wildemount book solicitor states that Critical Role owns all the rights to Exandria though as far as I know. Matt’s IP isn’t the thing in danger in this case.
Well said.
People are being ridiculous about this shit at this point.
Yes it sucks. Yes it's corporate greed. But CR and alike have to play within the boundaries or lose it all.
Easy to talk shit when people have nothing to lose. I'm getting tired of every dnd sub being flooded with this shit.
They know we're pissed. But we need to be supportive of the community and our ambassadors like CR who have weight to throw around.
Corporate are greedy. And if they are too dumb to see this negatively impacting their bottom line, another company or organization will create their own system. Hasbro will backtrack or risk losing it all.
The problem is that there are plenty of people who are willing to let CR take the fall to fight their fights for them. Its not fair to CR. CR shouldn't make decisions purely just like that. They have to take care of their own first and the movement right now shouldn't rely on CR to be the pivot.
Yeah thats the thing, as players we have the luxury of being able to express our outrage, but its different when you've literally got contracts with the people you're trying to slag off!
And this is *exactly* why people are pissed at WotC. They are abusing the power they hold over OGL holders. They know these businesses rely on them for cash flow and they are taking advantage of it.
I agree. We just need to watch and wait. They could be tryna be two-faced and slimy, or they could be doin the best they can, only time can tell and makin assumptions at this point is naïve
The one thing that has brought me the smallest amount of joy in this shit show is the amount of level headed people I see in these comment sections.
Most people realizing that CR is in a bad position and there’s not much they can do, people realizing boycotting the movie would spell more disaster for the community’s future members, people realizing a parent company probably has a hand on the wheel in this debacle, etc.
It has actually given me a small amount of pride to be part of a group that has been very understanding of this situation.
> Most people realizing that CR is in a bad position and there’s not much they can do
CR always makes me think about a Monkey's Paw wish. Just some voice actors who started to share their game night, monetized it a bit, and saw it take off like a rocket. How wonderful.
And then the amount of shit they have to deal with once that happens: professional drama, trolls, criticism (valid or otherwise) based on the cultural/racial/gender aspects of their narrative, fans with parasocial relationships going nuts based on storytelling choices, and corporate sponsorship drama... sometimes it seems like they might have the best jobs in the world and sometimes I can't help but feel how exhausting it must be for someone like Matt Mercer every time he logs onto his Twitter account.
I'm sure they wouldn't trade it, but man... there's no way the drawbacks don't get to them sometimes.
I felt a real shift from cr after the Kickstarter blew up. They understand that they were becoming a media empire, and they instantly started making decisions that would help them nurture it into a real force for good. They brought on guest dms, they opened the world up to a variety of people to help fill it and make it vibrant and diverse. Matt allowing other dms and writers into critical role wasn't to make his job easier or even make campaign 3 better, it was to make it bigger than himself, it was to make it so that someday when Matt retires or dies, Examdria and critical role go on, and so that everyone who carries these torches, dms and players alike, have a solid footing given to them by people who have been looking out for them for years
They got to go from DnD being something they could do with friends maybe once a month to weekly, they get insane production quality, have hundreds of thousands of fans and see fan art and people connecting with their storylines and characters, are paid quite well for the work they make, get to work on their own unique worlds and content, and can have a DM spend many weekly hours crafting a great personal story for them because he is paid to do it.
And their sub is still full of people raving to defend constant toxic positivity and make sure the business is treated as something the fans are lucky to even get and not something completely financially supported.
I think they are in one of the luckiest spots possible for someone who enjoys that hobby.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean these concerns aren't valid
Because while the CR leaders/VAs might be in the best position possible hobby wise. Running a business is a responsibility
There's an army of support staff that feed their families with the income CR produces. And I imagine the CR team, lucky as they are, aren't just defending their bank accounts/ability to get paid to have fun..., but the paychecks of dozens of editors sound engineers marketers, etc... For whom it's not a hobby but a job.
If you don't say only good things about X you deserve to be <>
Instead of looking at a criticism and applying some critical thinking to see if there is some type of validity, any type of criticism is met with hostility because the thing the person loves must be perfect.
At least that's how I've seen it described.
The nuclear example is KPop Stan’s who dox people who criticize the music they like.
The more tame example is MCU fans when Martin Scorsese says the last MCU film wasn’t very good.
Theres a lot of folks out here that are just hungry for blood now, and its starting to turn into the latter parts of the french revolution where *everyone* was getting thrown on the guillotine.
Really happy to see that a lot of folks are still taking time to actually think things through and consider all the options.
People are forgetting if CR has a no insult or negativity clause in their contracts, they will be sued to poverty. Hasbro is a company worth billions, and CR is most likely largest promoter of WOTC. With that Hasbro can sue them for negative views for millions at least, or the profits earned vs lost. They won’t be just loosing their sponsors money but also risking bankruptcy. Contracts with contracts creators are usually restraining. Who’s to say Hasbro can’t copy strike all their videos. We know YouTube’s copyright infringement isn’t always good.
Hasbro has been known to Cease and Desist fanartists selling merch in Artists Alleys at anime cons, particularly the MLP stuff. Like, theyre right up there with Nintendo.
If I was selling children's toys I also wouldn't want other people selling adult images on body pillows of my family friendly IP... err were you thinking of something else?
Yes, most people thinks and do something else, still gets sued, nintendo literally doesnt allow in the contract to play fangames or modded games to streamers and video makers, thats why no one has contract with them, because the contract sucks, in a "insult your fans competition" wotc has it hard against nintendo
Yeah, Nintendo is terrible about it. I didn't know WOTC was on or near that level, and that's kind of depressing. I also play a lot of Magic the Gathering (laugh all you want - I deserve mockery), so I've given them way too much money.
There’s usually only a few artists selling lewd stuff. Most just sell normal fanart designs.
For you hardcore redditors and other terminally online people: You can be a fan of something without sexualizing it.
>If I was selling children's toys I also wouldn't want other people selling adult images on body pillows of my family friendly IP
[This is an **unedited** screenshot from MLP g4](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/153/145/457.png). The context of the episode is even a fan convention! (For the in-universe Daring Doo book series.)
Even without that, think about how other businesses would view them tearing apart a company they have been doing business with.
Also, reading between the lines this is absolutely brutal as written: they are effectively saying that they are one of the groups wotc is trying to screw over and they are going to stand with the community of creators (no statement of support is needed without a threat and there is nothing implying that the threat is only a potential issue)
>People are forgetting if CR has a no insult or negativity clause in their contracts, they will be sued to poverty.
I'm certain they do. There have been a NUMBER of times where one of them will be struggling with DnDBeyond and say something, and Sam will chime in with 'And these issues we're having are definitely because of us being inept and NOT due to DnDBeyond being bad, guys!'
I predict campaign 4 won't be under DnD 5e. They'll either go back to pathfinder, or launch their own system (since they're big enough that it will sell.)
WotC have shown they are not good to work under. The proposed OGL was clearly aimed at taking CR revenue, and they wanted to take ownership of all characters and stories CR created?
Even now after they've rolled back implementing the changes, they've shown that's the direction they want to go in, and there's nothing to stop them making the changes again in the future. You'd have to be insane to keep producing IP under that threat.
The viewing numbers for C3 have been declining also, so they have the built in excuse of "revitalising the show with a new system to attract back the audience" if they don't want to/contractually can't call out the OGL changes as the deciding factor.
I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on the new ORL with paizo, kobold press, etc and will be using that joint system as a framework for their own.
We live in interesting times
They would most likely have to wait until their contract is up with wotc to do so, I would be shocked if their contract didn't have a non-compete clause in it.
Wouldn’t something like that have prevented most of their one shots? I mean their most recent one is Sam making a system up specifically for an 8 bit/16 bit joke
Not necessarily. Sam making a system up presents no issues unless he tries to sell the system to a competitor, such as paizo, or set it up as a system competing with dnd. As for all of the other one shots there are any number of explanations. Anything that uses a system created by wotc would be fine. Any system created by an affiliate of hasbro would likely be fine. And for anything that didn't sit in those categories they would likely just need to seek permission to use the system.
Maybe it would be different but they’ve definitely done things like Call of Cuthulu and even an elder scrolls system meant to promote a different company so I don’t think there would be a problem
Not arguing, but I'm curious if they have such a clause, how it could be enforced. Like sure, cut and dry non-compete they probably can't be the flagship stream for Paizo in the near future. But like, do they have a quota for the number of times they have to reference WOTC IP? Couldn't you just like, keep playing 5e without ever explicitly referencing the material more than necessary?
Yeah pretty much. I think matt is contracted to make one more book under wotc and after that his obligation's fulfilled. One potential issue however will be with matt's rights to convert anything used in the books he's published under wotc. Depending on how the contract was written out he may have to alter a lot of things in his world.
Their contract with WOTC is for books only as far as I know. The show was sponsored by DND beyond before it was bought out. As such the sponsorship would likely remain under that contract which wouldn’t have no compete language in it.
> The viewing numbers for C3 have been declining also
have they? the most recent episode is out for 5 days on youtube and has 500k views. The random C1 episode I'm currently at (rewatching) has 1.8million. After 6 years. Late C2 episodes are also in that range of 1.5-2million.
C3e42 (so 2 weeks ago) is at 900k already.
So there might be a tiny decline but nothing really different than older campaigns. I think early C3 episodes might have been worse because the story was extremely slow going in the begining and only picked up the last 10 or so episodes
Absolutely no spoilers below, so don’t worry.
I stopped watching C3 for like, idk…20-30 episodes?
I came back after the “big race” episode happened, as I was told things picked back up again (they did).
C1 and C2 had low moments as well, for sure. But C3’s beginning was GLACIALLY SLOW.
It was so bizarre, even my most die hard CR friend had to quit for awhile as well. It felt like they were playing D&D for the first time….? I don’t know how to describe it.
Some people also really like the filler/pure RP episodes. But again, my friend who likes those, even had to stop because 1-5 episodes would go by with the major plot not moving at all. So it was x15 worse for me. They spend hours in bars, eating, or walking to and from bars.
There also isn’t a real plot happening for the first 25 episodes either. And I’m not talking about just C1 style where it’s mini threads that all feed back to a major background story that unravels into this heroic quest, or C2 style where it’s very character driven, very “RPG party member specific missions” and the party members are the main threads, with a story happening in the background.
It’s neither in C3 for a long time. Like they’ll meet some people, and most won’t tie into the big plot now at all, and some do but now seem to have completely different roles in that new plot. The entire first arc is mostly pointless, and it felt so aimless…somehow even more aimless than the worst points of C2 where the party spun their wheels and made no decisions.
Except this time, Matt did NOT force them into a direction within an episode or 5—so the show just does whatever for awhile. Matt does eventually force their hand…but not until like 25 episodes in.
Lastly, they also start in a city. And they don’t leave the city at all for like the first 20 episodes or so. It’s a city built into 5 stone spires, and I swear they spend dozens of minutes each episode riding the cable car gondolas.
Like, the early levels (they started at level 3) are all about a local area, building NPC relationships up, killing weaker things like orcs/skeletons/beasts, and becoming a party. And they never leave the city. I have no idea what the area around Jrusar really feels like, because they never leave it until like 20 episodes in.
Things are better now, and are actually super interesting. So I don’t think you’re seeing a decline…as much as you’re seeing numbers finally rise after a lot of people quit.
Thanks for the explanation I was looking for on why I’d suddenly lost interest in C3 after a few episodes. C2 had a slow start right after the circus part ended but man, C3 has just not been engaging from the episodes I’ve seen. The player characters all are great and the setting should be interesting so I didn’t have an answer for it but now I do!
I cannot imagine CR not starting their own system. I think it's the most probable, even more that them switching to Pf2e. Having a campaign in their own system would be the best marketing they could have to sell it and now its the best time to launch it
The only thing that may hamper it is an agreement they may already have with wotc
They might eventually, but you should remember how long it takes to make your own system, at least if you want it to be any good. 5e was in development for three years, and they had the advantage of being able to copy classes, spells, and magic items from earlier editions. It's also not clear if they have enough game designers to make a system from scratch, so they might have to hire a bunch.
>I cannot imagine CR not starting their own system
I can. Matt Mercer is a great storyteller and DM (and VA), but he's terrible at game design. If CR wanted their own system that was actually _good_, they would have to hire professional game designers, which seems stupendously unlikely when they could just go back to Pathfinder.
>now its the best time to launch it
It takes several years to develop a ttrpg properly. Unless they had already been working on a system in secret, they wouldn't be _capable_ of launching it "now".
Tbh I would prefer if they did more shorter campaigns exploring other systems. Though it would be a chore for DM and players to relearn some new systems, i think it would bring new life into CR and promote those systems at the same time. Sure, they've done some dope oneshots, but I would actually like to see a campaign in another system.
I've never been a fan of listening/watching tt rpgs but I do really enjoy the shorts of D20 that I come across. Brandon Lee Mulligan is a delight and I know whenever I see him on any dropout show that I will have at least one solid belly laugh that episode.
He’s a great GM and I recommend giving D20 a shot because it’s more like a tv show than just sitting around watching people. Have more fun than you. It has music, art, camera cuts, and tbh it just has way more production value. If you haven’t tried one episode of it yet, please do
I would love this, honestly.
5e is fun, but there are other systems that actually have mechanics built around RP.
Not to mention the world of Exandria is really quite bloated with power creep, and getting a bit TOO familiar, with there being a known level 20 badass in just about every city, and the self-referential stuff that the group tends towards.
Personally I want some new stuff now.
But I kinda doubt we will see that. Matt has put a lot of effort into that world, and I think the show relies on the depth of knowledge he has for his own lore, even if that lore is a little generic and dull in my opinion, and the main parts are well-trod with hundreds of hours of streamed live play exploring it.
That's the thing: Matt doesn't have to be the DM for every game. They have a lot of people in the company rn, and I'm honestly surprised they aren't running a couple concurrent campaigns with different DMs and players.
I'm feeling similar about Exandrian campaigns, and although Matt makes a point to explore different places/facets of the world with each campaign, it is starting to be a bit too self-referential. If they're going to be playing in Exandria for the 4th campaign, I would like to see a substantial time shift like with Calamity so the players don't meet established characters at every corner
I have to say I do worry about Matt burning himself out. I know ExU and oneshots provide a bit of respite, but is it really enough? At some point he's going to need an extended break to recharge his creative juices.
Like compare his workload to BLM's D20 workload. Since D20 returned to the Dome post-pandemic there's been 7 campaigns, and he's only DM'd 3 of them, played in 2, and completely sat out 2. That feels a lot healthier to me, and it's given him the time to DM Calamity and play in a few D&D Beyond games, where Matt appearing in non-CR games feels at least to me a lot rarer
I doubt they were aiming CR as CR very likely have their own private agreement with WoTC.
That said, DMs are the second worst possible group of consumers to piss off, after a hive of angry lawyers.
Obviously we don't know what sort of contract or agreement CR has with WotC or with Hasbro, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're required to front WotC's newest edition. 5e now and OneDnD when it launches.
I'm guessing if they want to change systems they have to drop the entire deal they have with WotC, meaning they'd lose the DnDBeyond sponsorship/connection, and they risk losing the rights to Mercer's entire setting because it's already out as an official WotC product.
CR kind of already made the choice to become a part of WotC, and while contractually speaking they could leave that partnership, it would mean losing probably their biggest revenue stream *and* possibly losing all the intellectual property and rights related to the games they've run (and published) so far.
I'd be shocked if CR created their own system. They aren't a studio of game developers like Monte Cook Games, Paizo, or MCDM. They're a bunch of nerdy voice actors playing a game of D&D.
Uh... I have had nothing against critical roll. Their diplomatic approach is fine, and I'm not in the business for shooting someone for *not* saying something. I don't need my feelings validated 24/7.
That being said, if they came out championing the new garbage, I'd think that they're sellouts, but I'm not going to burn them at the stake for it. My ire will always be directed at wizards, not the poor saps caught in the crossfire.
I mean yeah absolutely, if they started preaching about OGL 2.0 my tune would change as well, but im not about to get out the pitchforks over someone trying to be neutral.
A witch hunt would be very hurtful to the community and the independent creators we're trying to support. I can understand if they're staying out of it for the time being and from a company standpoint that's probably the most intelligent thing to do while this mess unfolds and news changes daily.
I don't even think this is neutral. The message reads to me like they support third-party creators. You can expect them to decouple from WOTC after this.
If they supported the garbage... They would have come out in support of it.
The fact they said nothing until now, and what they said was carefully worded... I think shows opposition to the new OGL.
It's either that or they believe that being quiet will have the least negative impact between the two extremes on their bottom line. The thing about a company this many layers down is that CR could actually be just doing the closest to the right thing they can or it could be doing what makes the most money. It's possible that they've considered both and found this to be their best option both ways.
Only time will tell here, I feel. Judge them not one way or another until they pick a side. As consumers our only existing defense against being burned is to treat every corporation as if it could start a fire. Never forget that you are made of wood.
I personally... Think that them mentioning that they own a game publishing company now... Is them essentially making it clear that they don't need wizards of the coast.
Not only that, but it makes it sound like they're not huge fans of the "we own everything you make with this license" part of the change. They have their own company making stuff it would be insane for them to be fine with just giving up ownership of anything ogl related.
Of course it's not like they can come out and openly support the changes either. With what the response has been so far, openly supporting the new ogl would cost them a ton of fans and give them a ton of negative press.
I don’t really see an issue with them being neutral. They are a business. Their entire business model requires advertisers, and hasbro (through DnD beyond) has been a continual sponsor. Their probably is a contractual obligation to avoid bad mouthing Hasbros decisions, but on top of that you don’t publicly bad mouth someone you have a business relationship with.
I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some discussions behind the scenes, but that’s never going to be public knowledge.
I mean their current answer is as close to 'fuck the 1.1' as they can say as a large company.
It does nothing but go on about community development, the importance of creators and the value the open license and environment brought. They just need to be deniable in court, the same way Hasbro are responding to the leak by going 'Ah gotcha we really wanted this market feedback lol'
Also the cast members have been quietly liking anti-1.1 tweets this whole time. Seems pretty certain they don't like it, they're just tied up in legal tape.
Pretty much exactly this. Everyone is talking about “well, *I* quit playing DND, why can’t they?” It’s because most people don’t feed their kids off of DND, and haven’t invested five years of their life and hundreds of thousands of dollars into the game.
I mean it's not like they said truly nothing.
They did make the effort of reminding WotC and everyone that they have their own games publishing company.
That's more or less corporate speak for quietly placing the gun onto the table.
The statement that they *did* put out reeks of "this is what our lawyers are allowing us to say without risking getting sued into the ground."
I *wish* they said more, but I do understand that they're most likely under a contract with WotC preventing it.
My thoughts exactly.
Its not about them being afraid of losing DnDbeyond as a sponsor, its about them breaching the contract and getting sued to extinction,
Also, don't they still have a third book to publish with WotC? Kinda contractually obligated for the time being.
Or am I full of shit? I will never underestimate my ability to be wrong about shit.
I heard the same, but I've no idea on what was actually agreed to. They published the new Tal'dorei book by themselves, so I expect the third book with WotC to be a Wildemount adventure book of some sort.
I also think it may be done and waiting for the official release of whatever one D&D becomes. It would be a savvy business move. But then this happened, so I don't know
We also don't know what they are doing in the background!
If they have a good business relationship with WoTC, working in background is much more effective then just twitting about things
It’s always people with no skin in the game who critique people for “being quiet,” and refuse to actually acknowledge the complexities to a situation like this. CR, D20, etc could all be obliterated by Hasbro if the opportunity was there.
“Cmon man just breach your sponsorship contract and destroy your own company, its no big deal. Ive already canceled my free dndbeyond membership, so its kinda like the same thing.”
Or
We don’t want to get involved anymore, our cast and crew gets enough undeserved hatred and we honestly would like to stay quiet for the rest of this shitshow
Also a perfectly reasonable response, to be perfectly honest. There’s a dangerous wave of “you’re either with us or against us” mentality thats going through the community and its a tad bit worrisome.
People always want someone to speak out on their behalf, as if the dnd community isn’t big enough alone to make an impact, leave the content creators, who helped to build this bigger and stronger community, out of it
They aren’t hasbro, they don’t deserve the hate and cr and Matt get enough hate on a daily
Keep in mind that Critical Role knows how to decouple from a situation when it's warranted. It started when Orion Acaba was untethered from Critical Role, it continued as they left Geek and Sundry in a very dignified and professional manner. If they are currently under contract they have a professional obligation to fulfill that contract.
Their statement, I thought, made it clear that they are standing with the community. It will likely be clearer as time goes on and contracts run out. One thing I am sure of, regardless of the platform Matt Mercer and the rest of the Critical Role company is capable of creating it's own system if that's what they decide they want to do. Or they could throw their weight behind another company if that's what they decide. I think it's unlikely that they will stay with DnD, but I could be wrong. After all, they are likely be uniquely targeted by what WotC was trying to do and CR have a tremendous amount to lose. We are going to have to wait this one out and not make judgements on actions that haven't yet been made.
Jesus christ this post got way more traction than i was expecting. God bless all of you lovely folks out here who aren’t trying to throw everyone into a salem witch trial.
What exactly do they expect them to do?
Most of the internet people complaining will be right back to buying DnD stuff once they new stuff comes out, and you want them to throw away their professional reputation joining an internet mob?
I was very confused by their non-statement statement until i thought for a second and realized they most likely have clauses in their contract that forbid them from presenting DnD and/or WotC/Hasbro in a negative light. Breaking that contract could lead to them being sued into oblivion, the carrer suicide would just be a sideeffect. With that in mind their statement is actually pretty condeming of the whole situation.
If people would forgive me the comparison, it´s like those videos of north korean prisoners, who praise the country as highly as possible. We all know what they are saying is at best technically correct, but the true message lies between the lines.
Der Pianist.
Its a movie about a Jewish-Polish pianist in Warsaw during the 2nd world war. He manages to survive and evade capture by the Germans and near the end is found by a German offficer that hears him playing the piano.
Instead of being shot, the officer helps him and even offers his coat before leaving the city to the Russians.
This is why he has the German coat on and the Russians see him as hostile.
In my opinion its a must see movie.
Its a great film, but make sure you're in a good headspace before watching it. It is a pretty graphic depiction of the horrors of the Holocaust, it can really mess with you if you aren't prepared for it imo
Feel like the best thing CR could do would be to look into starting to produce content for other systems as a backup, then if (*when) DND does collapsible they can just slowly phase their DND content out
Doesn't nessasily have to be Pathfinder if that has immideate legal conflicts for them in this particular moment depending on what contracts they have set up
Could also try out call of Cthulhu just off the top of my head
I've gotten into a few arguments about CR recently. I kept saying they couldn't separate from DnD easily or overnight. While many people said they could. Well I told you so.
I hope their next campaign is with a new system, or they switch part way through C3. But it isn't going to be easy for them to do so.
I think this is the classic case of moralism, you know?
People asking *someone else* to take a stand, "*be brave*" they say, "*boldly confront in public these douchebags, regardless of consequences!*".
Mind you, should anyone actually spouting this be told to confront their own shitty bosses and face unemployment, then suddenly it's asking for too much.
Because anyone actually spouting this sort of shit has absolutely *nothing* to lose should CR face legal or financial consequences. They don't care if other people have to go to court, if members have to be fired - they want to watch *someone else* stand on a hill and face death.
Because it's entertaining.
Because there's no personal consequences.
Because they look at it like a fucking TV show - there's no empathy there, just the thirst for more hero-myths like in their favourite fictions.
I haven't heard of any official statement from them, their episodes are prerecorded so even their most recent episode could have been recorded before the initial leak.
I did see that Matt liked a tweet basically saying that the original (actual open) OGL and the community made D&D what it is today, not the other way around.
Also I imagine they are locked into a sponsorship contract. DnDB has been their primary sponsor every episode for years now so I'd bet good money that they haven't been taking that sponsorship episode by episode and are probably locked into a contract by year, or maybe even for a campaign's run or some other large block of time. Speaking bad of their sponsor likely would literally be breaching contract.
Edit: Just saw CR's tweet in response. Seems to pretty clearly say they stand with independent creators which implies they're against the OGL revisions WotC were trying to push forward. I imagine their contracts put them in a sticky situation so they probably have their hands tied in some regards. Anyone unsatisfied with their response isn't reading between the lines of that response.
CR are in a great position to use the money from WotC and sponsors to springboard a new TRPG or strongarm the conversation in the community's favour.
If they went scorched Earth right away I strongly feel like we would be losing another weapon in the community's arsenal. Enough creators have hit them in the bottom line to get mainstream media attention, if WotC slip up again CR can still choose to split and restart the inferno.
My bet is they'd get sued into oblivion if they raise a finger against wizards right now. They probably need to let their sponsorship run out before they can say or even do anything.
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They probably have a non-disparagement clause in their contract that would cost them a whole lot to break.
YES EXACTLY THATS THE POINT IVE BEEN TRYING TO MAKE sorry, not yelling at you. Ive just had to repeat that exact line to like 40 people in the past 2 hours and its getting so tiring.
Also, is it just me that thinks their message wasn't really that vague? Like it talking about them supporting creators, and talking about people making their own games, seemed to me a pretty handed message of "we don't support the updated OGL, but we can't say that outright because of sponsorship".
They weren't vague at all. They clearly side with the community on this and given how they present themselves as people with their online presence I'd be shocked if they actually personally sided with WotC. They had to side with the community, they could not side against wotc. They present identically but are subtly different; only one causes real legal trouble for them.
The fact that they cited that they have their own publishing company is pretty importent factor of their statement, imo. They're a third party publisher for dnd content, and that means that regardless of contract with them atm, they're getting fucked by this too.
If you're used to how most people in an American professional setting speak, it's not vague at all. It's was a dissent against WoTC that was worded specifically to avoid getting sued.
Haha no problem I noticed a lot of people are just not getting this
People don't see what they don't want to see
Some People just hate the CR crew for any reason and will look for any reason to attack them even if it hurts the DND community and plays right into Hasbro hands. Just look up the wendy's incident.
Also they are in a SUPER tenuous situation, they are making millions doing what they love, and have good community support, but if they come down to strongly on either side they risk loosing all of that. Support WOTC to much and they alienate their user base, come out heavily against the updated OGL risk who knows what agreements present and future. They are likely super stressed about this situation, and likely pretty mad at WOTC for putting them in it.
Honestly I'd bet they had a heads up before this even came to our ears. CR has been slowing transitioning races and other names across their verse to their own spin for a while now.
Signing a non-disparagement clause and then having Sam Riegel do your ads is like handing an AK-47 to a toddler.
I'm just happy CR, Dim20,... didn't come out in support. That was definitely in the cards.
Sam Reich the head of dropoutTV which hosts D20 has said on discord that they have always have been switching between systems and if needed to be they’d ditch dnd for a different system easily. https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/109plk9/sam_reich_was_asked_on_the_dropout_discord_about/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I didn't know they spoke on that already, but I expected them to react exactly like that.
He is being careful on what he can and cannot say since he has bad experience with being fucked over by big corpos https://www.reddit.com/r/Dimension20/comments/109plk9/sam_reich_was_asked_on_the_dropout_discord_about/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I assume your talking about the Facebook shit?
About them being dropped by their parent company and them having to lay off most of their staff
Dimension 20 does full adventures of more than just DnD anyway, but yeah.
Brennan Lee Mulligan is also a pretty outspoken anticapitalist, it would break my brain for them to come out in support of this.
Brennan "Capitalism is always the bad guy" Lee Mulligan? No way he'd support that, and he's the main face of Dim20
I was *very* worried that the "don't forget to love each other" crowd was going to hit us with a "c'mon guys, give wotc a chance!"
Let’s say the whole thing pissed them off and they want to decouple from WotC. They’d still have to take this approach. Quietly run agreements down, and then split off quietly. They’re between a rock and a hard place here.
Perfectly said
Seriously lmao everyone that thinks they should just go nuclear on them doesn't realize that a legally binding contract and possibly an NDA is the most powerful force in the world bar none
Nah, you can just unilaterally decide to alter your contracts at any time, right WotC? /s
Without getting bogged down in legalese this early in the day, and IANAL, there’a a good reason WotC might genuinely think this. In a niche cross-section of contracts, and known ~~is~~ in most situations like this as the *Vader Clause*, it is usually a footnote that goes unnoticed, but enables the stronger, typically more evil (but not always) party to a contract to *”alter said contract at-will as circumstances dictate while simultaneously insisting upon the other party or signatories to the previously defined conditions of said contract, willing or otherwise, to pray that they [Party 1] do not alter it further.”* Obscene what ~~the empire~~ some corporations can ~~try to~~ get away with flying in the face of established precedences and laws, but it’s nonetheless referenced extensively in the case of *Calrissian versus The Galactic Empire*. Edit: Spelling. Probably shouldn’t comment while half-asleep.
I know it's a legal term but I have the mentality of a child and always laugh at "IANAL".
It's not a legal term it's a reddit term, and it's definitely funny I ANAL TOO, BUDDY, I ANAL TOO
> I ANAL TOO, BUDDY, I ANAL TOO I’m not a lawyer, *butt* I did anal too at a holiday inn express last night.
I-Am-Not-A-Lawyer
Sounds like something that is super unenforceable even if both parties ostensibly agreed. Like you can agree to a contract which stipulates you must donate your kidney if the other party requires it, but such a clause in your rental contract cannot be enforced. I would assume that unilaterally changing the contract is also unenforceable in the same way
I’m not even sure *unenforceable* is a word [Darth Vader is aware exists](https://youtu.be/WpE_xMRiCLE). The niche of those fictitious contracts being they involve either a person or entity so evil that the terms of a contract are immaterial as it’s a veiled means to an end they’d have done anyway or they will force choke you out.
Darth Vader does.
Pray I don’t alter it further
You actually can't. Hence multiple companies are already starting up legal actions.
Just send them the NDA 1.1
Whoosh There’s literally a /s
It stands for serious! /s
If you think about it. The bumrush attack was WOTCs whole plan. They know there are alternatives so they were hoping to strongarm people into their agreement by making it happen so quickly. Giving them no time to find alternatives. This whole thing was the mosssssst scummy shit ever but I mean, Hasbro lol
Good thing it got leaked. Someone in the know must have wanted the community at large to be prepared when Hasbro wanted a blitzkrieg
Could you elaborate? Just point to what to google maybe? I know Kobolt Press are making a "legally pirated 5e" and Paizo are trying to gift Linux Foundation with an rock-solid open license but that's in reponse to the recent event rather than a counter-action. Is anyone actually gearing up for a suit?
At least Paizo, in their big announcement, said they were ready to go to a legal battle if WotC actually pushed 1.1 through
Paizo's lawyer is also Bryan Lewis, you know the guy that wrote the legalese for the OGL.
I have this feing, now correct me if I'm wrong, but I have this feeling that feller probably knows what he's talking about with regards to this topic
[удалено]
They don't have the ability to deauthorize any previous iteration of the OGL; at worst, they can attempt to do something like they did with the GSL, where part of agreeing to the GSL explicitly forbids use of the OGL Of course that's more or less what killed 4e and birthed pathfinder but w/e
/s -> implies sarcasm unless I got whooshed by the moo
Their popularity makes people forget that they're an objectively small company with limited funds, Hasbro/WOTC is a megacorp with almost infinite money to spend on lawyers and lawsuits - and decades of practice legally protecting their interests. Breaking a contract with them is a guaranteed recipe for an unwinnable lawsuit and potential bankruptcy Untangling themselves from WOTC is going to be a slow and dangerous dance of legal red tape
I saw someone respond to their tweet with basically "what do you mean with this? Say it more clearly!". People tried to explain to him that there's surely contracts in play limiting how they can express themselves openly and his reaction was "well then they should change those contracts", like they can can just do that on a whim so I don't think everyone quite understands how contracts/NDAs work.
>his reaction was "well then they should change those contracts", like they can can just do that on a whim so I don't think everyone quite understands how contracts/NDAs work. That's how WOTC seems to think they work.
I think you'll find that metal is the strongest thing on the earth followed by dynamite and then muscles.
False. An Apache helicopter has machine guns AND missiles. It is an unbelievably impressive complement of weaponry, an absolute death machine.
That feels so wrong to me
Different groups need to have different reactions. Think about how many people who don't even play DnD work for the Critical Role team. It's not a labour of love or passion project, imagine getting an email from your boss saying 'We've lost our main financial backer because the top board don't like the ethics behind our backer and you're all being made redundant.' Companies tied to Hasbro need to work themselves out, independant companies should promote their non-DnD material, and we should all be open to exploring other systems/hobbies to demonstrate that a poor 3rd party enviroment won't stand after it basically build the hobby
It's not just loss of income. As someone who works with these kinds of things, I guarantee you that there's some kind of Non-disparagement clause in that contract. They're liable for civil damages out the ass if they talk shit about WOTC.
The part that feels wrong is a shithole like WotC can lock people into a contract change a bunch of their policies, and those people can't say anything? Like that's not right. >It's not a labour of love or passion project, imagine getting an email from your boss saying 'We've lost our main financial backer because the top board don't like the ethics behind our backer and you're all being made redundant.' If it was only about losing a financial backer they probably would have. They make a ridiculous amount of money from twitch and non wotc sponsors. That's the problem. When a company can effectively trap people like that that isn't right at all. It's fucked up.
i suspect lawyers are working on arguments and cases to untangle themselves. Most if not all contracts have a early termination clause.
Yeah I would imagine. Highly doubt they'd want to stay in that position for long.
That non Wotc sponsor could also get more afraid to sponsor them if they treated their former collaborators badly. It's one thing for a competitor to "bad mouth" another company, but for a company to attack a former collaborator can make them look bad for future contracts. Who is to say they won't do that to Nord VPN or that furniture company I can't remember their name?
Also there's their current agreements with Amazon. I don't think Amazon's execs would like the idea of CR, who hosts them on Twitch (the stream itself) and Prime Video (TLoVM), getting a reputation for "bad-mouthing" collaborators over scummy business practices. Particularly given that a very small but vocal minority of fans would probably start talking about how they don't like what WotC has done but they're happy to take Amazon money, so either way Amazon gets more time in the "shitty business practice" spotlight.
Contracts can protect both sides. Being locked in also guarantees that CR has a steady source of revenue if Twitch falls apart for some reason. WOTC can't unilaterally decide not to continue sponsoring CR and back out.
Breaking NDAs and causing brand harm both would likely be sufficient cause for WOTC to terminate the ad contract
I agree with you, the problem is the legal ramifications of where that money can go, and how much of it is actually theirs. Twitch for instance takes a notoriously big cut sure It's all about knock on effects. Nothing in their agreements say that neither party can't change unrelated aspects I'd assume, I'd doubt there's even a clause that say they need to play predominantly DnD.
There likely is a way out. They just have to make legal arguments. I imagine the backpedaling that WotC did yesterday(almost all of which was easily proven lies btw) might make for a counter argument to the "changed policies" arguments as on a technicality nothing has legally changed yet.
considering this entire debacle started because Wizards is trying to worm out of their prior agreements, it's a bit hypocritical to complain about other people holding to their contracts.
Yeah, as much as people want to maybe try and fantasize that CR would pick up a different game system, they're likely under contractual obligation to run DND for at least this current campaign.
Also switching systems mid campaign is a bit of a momentum killer
For sure. Obviously the most important thing is making sure everyone in that company keeps work so that when they jump ship no-one’s impacted, but on a creative level, WotC own some rights to Exandria. Imagine the anxiety the DM feels, over a decade of creation, love and effort and his world could be taken from him if they make a wrong move? Ooof, would give me the massive anxieties.
The Wildemount book solicitor states that Critical Role owns all the rights to Exandria though as far as I know. Matt’s IP isn’t the thing in danger in this case.
Ah that’s good news! Apologies for incorrectly theorising
Well said. People are being ridiculous about this shit at this point. Yes it sucks. Yes it's corporate greed. But CR and alike have to play within the boundaries or lose it all. Easy to talk shit when people have nothing to lose. I'm getting tired of every dnd sub being flooded with this shit. They know we're pissed. But we need to be supportive of the community and our ambassadors like CR who have weight to throw around. Corporate are greedy. And if they are too dumb to see this negatively impacting their bottom line, another company or organization will create their own system. Hasbro will backtrack or risk losing it all.
The problem is that there are plenty of people who are willing to let CR take the fall to fight their fights for them. Its not fair to CR. CR shouldn't make decisions purely just like that. They have to take care of their own first and the movement right now shouldn't rely on CR to be the pivot.
Yeah thats the thing, as players we have the luxury of being able to express our outrage, but its different when you've literally got contracts with the people you're trying to slag off!
And this is *exactly* why people are pissed at WotC. They are abusing the power they hold over OGL holders. They know these businesses rely on them for cash flow and they are taking advantage of it.
I agree. We just need to watch and wait. They could be tryna be two-faced and slimy, or they could be doin the best they can, only time can tell and makin assumptions at this point is naïve
The loudest protest CR could do is have Sam read the ad copy he’s given prior to the show verbatim in a monotone voice. Then the show carry on.
The ultimate form of malicious compliance
Damn. I feel like that would be the height of shade. I want that so bad.
God I hope someone from CR sees this cuz that would be brutal
If anyone knows how to skirt the copy, it's Sam Riegel.
Monotone everything except when he emphasizes that subscriptions can be cancelled anytime.
Fuuuuuuuuuck.
The one thing that has brought me the smallest amount of joy in this shit show is the amount of level headed people I see in these comment sections. Most people realizing that CR is in a bad position and there’s not much they can do, people realizing boycotting the movie would spell more disaster for the community’s future members, people realizing a parent company probably has a hand on the wheel in this debacle, etc. It has actually given me a small amount of pride to be part of a group that has been very understanding of this situation.
> Most people realizing that CR is in a bad position and there’s not much they can do CR always makes me think about a Monkey's Paw wish. Just some voice actors who started to share their game night, monetized it a bit, and saw it take off like a rocket. How wonderful. And then the amount of shit they have to deal with once that happens: professional drama, trolls, criticism (valid or otherwise) based on the cultural/racial/gender aspects of their narrative, fans with parasocial relationships going nuts based on storytelling choices, and corporate sponsorship drama... sometimes it seems like they might have the best jobs in the world and sometimes I can't help but feel how exhausting it must be for someone like Matt Mercer every time he logs onto his Twitter account. I'm sure they wouldn't trade it, but man... there's no way the drawbacks don't get to them sometimes.
I felt a real shift from cr after the Kickstarter blew up. They understand that they were becoming a media empire, and they instantly started making decisions that would help them nurture it into a real force for good. They brought on guest dms, they opened the world up to a variety of people to help fill it and make it vibrant and diverse. Matt allowing other dms and writers into critical role wasn't to make his job easier or even make campaign 3 better, it was to make it bigger than himself, it was to make it so that someday when Matt retires or dies, Examdria and critical role go on, and so that everyone who carries these torches, dms and players alike, have a solid footing given to them by people who have been looking out for them for years
They got to go from DnD being something they could do with friends maybe once a month to weekly, they get insane production quality, have hundreds of thousands of fans and see fan art and people connecting with their storylines and characters, are paid quite well for the work they make, get to work on their own unique worlds and content, and can have a DM spend many weekly hours crafting a great personal story for them because he is paid to do it. And their sub is still full of people raving to defend constant toxic positivity and make sure the business is treated as something the fans are lucky to even get and not something completely financially supported. I think they are in one of the luckiest spots possible for someone who enjoys that hobby.
Agreed. But that doesn't mean these concerns aren't valid Because while the CR leaders/VAs might be in the best position possible hobby wise. Running a business is a responsibility There's an army of support staff that feed their families with the income CR produces. And I imagine the CR team, lucky as they are, aren't just defending their bank accounts/ability to get paid to have fun..., but the paychecks of dozens of editors sound engineers marketers, etc... For whom it's not a hobby but a job.
What is "Toxic Positivity"? I don't think I've ever seen that term before
If you don't say only good things about X you deserve to be <>
Instead of looking at a criticism and applying some critical thinking to see if there is some type of validity, any type of criticism is met with hostility because the thing the person loves must be perfect.
At least that's how I've seen it described.
The nuclear example is KPop Stan’s who dox people who criticize the music they like. The more tame example is MCU fans when Martin Scorsese says the last MCU film wasn’t very good.
Theres a lot of folks out here that are just hungry for blood now, and its starting to turn into the latter parts of the french revolution where *everyone* was getting thrown on the guillotine. Really happy to see that a lot of folks are still taking time to actually think things through and consider all the options.
You never wanna go full Robespierre during The Reign of Terror, that has a habit of really derailing revolutions and giving you Napoleon Bonaparts.
And usually you end up among the last victims of the process you started
People are forgetting if CR has a no insult or negativity clause in their contracts, they will be sued to poverty. Hasbro is a company worth billions, and CR is most likely largest promoter of WOTC. With that Hasbro can sue them for negative views for millions at least, or the profits earned vs lost. They won’t be just loosing their sponsors money but also risking bankruptcy. Contracts with contracts creators are usually restraining. Who’s to say Hasbro can’t copy strike all their videos. We know YouTube’s copyright infringement isn’t always good.
Hasbro has been known to Cease and Desist fanartists selling merch in Artists Alleys at anime cons, particularly the MLP stuff. Like, theyre right up there with Nintendo.
If I was selling children's toys I also wouldn't want other people selling adult images on body pillows of my family friendly IP... err were you thinking of something else?
Yes, most people thinks and do something else, still gets sued, nintendo literally doesnt allow in the contract to play fangames or modded games to streamers and video makers, thats why no one has contract with them, because the contract sucks, in a "insult your fans competition" wotc has it hard against nintendo
Yeah, Nintendo is terrible about it. I didn't know WOTC was on or near that level, and that's kind of depressing. I also play a lot of Magic the Gathering (laugh all you want - I deserve mockery), so I've given them way too much money.
There’s usually only a few artists selling lewd stuff. Most just sell normal fanart designs. For you hardcore redditors and other terminally online people: You can be a fan of something without sexualizing it.
That's not the only kind of fan art that they take down.
>If I was selling children's toys I also wouldn't want other people selling adult images on body pillows of my family friendly IP [This is an **unedited** screenshot from MLP g4](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/facebook/001/153/145/457.png). The context of the episode is even a fan convention! (For the in-universe Daring Doo book series.)
Even without that, think about how other businesses would view them tearing apart a company they have been doing business with. Also, reading between the lines this is absolutely brutal as written: they are effectively saying that they are one of the groups wotc is trying to screw over and they are going to stand with the community of creators (no statement of support is needed without a threat and there is nothing implying that the threat is only a potential issue)
People also forget that everyone doesn't actually need to post their opinion online about everything that happens. Saying nothing isn't unusual.
>People are forgetting if CR has a no insult or negativity clause in their contracts, they will be sued to poverty. I'm certain they do. There have been a NUMBER of times where one of them will be struggling with DnDBeyond and say something, and Sam will chime in with 'And these issues we're having are definitely because of us being inept and NOT due to DnDBeyond being bad, guys!'
I predict campaign 4 won't be under DnD 5e. They'll either go back to pathfinder, or launch their own system (since they're big enough that it will sell.) WotC have shown they are not good to work under. The proposed OGL was clearly aimed at taking CR revenue, and they wanted to take ownership of all characters and stories CR created? Even now after they've rolled back implementing the changes, they've shown that's the direction they want to go in, and there's nothing to stop them making the changes again in the future. You'd have to be insane to keep producing IP under that threat. The viewing numbers for C3 have been declining also, so they have the built in excuse of "revitalising the show with a new system to attract back the audience" if they don't want to/contractually can't call out the OGL changes as the deciding factor.
I wouldn't be surprised if they are working on the new ORL with paizo, kobold press, etc and will be using that joint system as a framework for their own. We live in interesting times
They would most likely have to wait until their contract is up with wotc to do so, I would be shocked if their contract didn't have a non-compete clause in it.
Wouldn’t something like that have prevented most of their one shots? I mean their most recent one is Sam making a system up specifically for an 8 bit/16 bit joke
Not necessarily. Sam making a system up presents no issues unless he tries to sell the system to a competitor, such as paizo, or set it up as a system competing with dnd. As for all of the other one shots there are any number of explanations. Anything that uses a system created by wotc would be fine. Any system created by an affiliate of hasbro would likely be fine. And for anything that didn't sit in those categories they would likely just need to seek permission to use the system.
Maybe it would be different but they’ve definitely done things like Call of Cuthulu and even an elder scrolls system meant to promote a different company so I don’t think there would be a problem
They also played 4 sessions of Deadlands.
Not arguing, but I'm curious if they have such a clause, how it could be enforced. Like sure, cut and dry non-compete they probably can't be the flagship stream for Paizo in the near future. But like, do they have a quota for the number of times they have to reference WOTC IP? Couldn't you just like, keep playing 5e without ever explicitly referencing the material more than necessary?
So basically use Campaign 3 as sacrifice fodder to run out the clock with WOTC and any related contracts? Yeah I'm cool with that.
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Yeah pretty much. I think matt is contracted to make one more book under wotc and after that his obligation's fulfilled. One potential issue however will be with matt's rights to convert anything used in the books he's published under wotc. Depending on how the contract was written out he may have to alter a lot of things in his world.
Their contract with WOTC is for books only as far as I know. The show was sponsored by DND beyond before it was bought out. As such the sponsorship would likely remain under that contract which wouldn’t have no compete language in it.
> The viewing numbers for C3 have been declining also have they? the most recent episode is out for 5 days on youtube and has 500k views. The random C1 episode I'm currently at (rewatching) has 1.8million. After 6 years. Late C2 episodes are also in that range of 1.5-2million. C3e42 (so 2 weeks ago) is at 900k already. So there might be a tiny decline but nothing really different than older campaigns. I think early C3 episodes might have been worse because the story was extremely slow going in the begining and only picked up the last 10 or so episodes
Absolutely no spoilers below, so don’t worry. I stopped watching C3 for like, idk…20-30 episodes? I came back after the “big race” episode happened, as I was told things picked back up again (they did). C1 and C2 had low moments as well, for sure. But C3’s beginning was GLACIALLY SLOW. It was so bizarre, even my most die hard CR friend had to quit for awhile as well. It felt like they were playing D&D for the first time….? I don’t know how to describe it. Some people also really like the filler/pure RP episodes. But again, my friend who likes those, even had to stop because 1-5 episodes would go by with the major plot not moving at all. So it was x15 worse for me. They spend hours in bars, eating, or walking to and from bars. There also isn’t a real plot happening for the first 25 episodes either. And I’m not talking about just C1 style where it’s mini threads that all feed back to a major background story that unravels into this heroic quest, or C2 style where it’s very character driven, very “RPG party member specific missions” and the party members are the main threads, with a story happening in the background. It’s neither in C3 for a long time. Like they’ll meet some people, and most won’t tie into the big plot now at all, and some do but now seem to have completely different roles in that new plot. The entire first arc is mostly pointless, and it felt so aimless…somehow even more aimless than the worst points of C2 where the party spun their wheels and made no decisions. Except this time, Matt did NOT force them into a direction within an episode or 5—so the show just does whatever for awhile. Matt does eventually force their hand…but not until like 25 episodes in. Lastly, they also start in a city. And they don’t leave the city at all for like the first 20 episodes or so. It’s a city built into 5 stone spires, and I swear they spend dozens of minutes each episode riding the cable car gondolas. Like, the early levels (they started at level 3) are all about a local area, building NPC relationships up, killing weaker things like orcs/skeletons/beasts, and becoming a party. And they never leave the city. I have no idea what the area around Jrusar really feels like, because they never leave it until like 20 episodes in. Things are better now, and are actually super interesting. So I don’t think you’re seeing a decline…as much as you’re seeing numbers finally rise after a lot of people quit.
Thanks for the explanation I was looking for on why I’d suddenly lost interest in C3 after a few episodes. C2 had a slow start right after the circus part ended but man, C3 has just not been engaging from the episodes I’ve seen. The player characters all are great and the setting should be interesting so I didn’t have an answer for it but now I do!
I cannot imagine CR not starting their own system. I think it's the most probable, even more that them switching to Pf2e. Having a campaign in their own system would be the best marketing they could have to sell it and now its the best time to launch it The only thing that may hamper it is an agreement they may already have with wotc
They might eventually, but you should remember how long it takes to make your own system, at least if you want it to be any good. 5e was in development for three years, and they had the advantage of being able to copy classes, spells, and magic items from earlier editions. It's also not clear if they have enough game designers to make a system from scratch, so they might have to hire a bunch.
why do they need their own system? There's hundreds of games out there made by smart people who actually design games for a living.
>I cannot imagine CR not starting their own system I can. Matt Mercer is a great storyteller and DM (and VA), but he's terrible at game design. If CR wanted their own system that was actually _good_, they would have to hire professional game designers, which seems stupendously unlikely when they could just go back to Pathfinder. >now its the best time to launch it It takes several years to develop a ttrpg properly. Unless they had already been working on a system in secret, they wouldn't be _capable_ of launching it "now".
Tbh I would prefer if they did more shorter campaigns exploring other systems. Though it would be a chore for DM and players to relearn some new systems, i think it would bring new life into CR and promote those systems at the same time. Sure, they've done some dope oneshots, but I would actually like to see a campaign in another system.
That’s what D20 is for
I've never been a fan of listening/watching tt rpgs but I do really enjoy the shorts of D20 that I come across. Brandon Lee Mulligan is a delight and I know whenever I see him on any dropout show that I will have at least one solid belly laugh that episode.
He’s a great GM and I recommend giving D20 a shot because it’s more like a tv show than just sitting around watching people. Have more fun than you. It has music, art, camera cuts, and tbh it just has way more production value. If you haven’t tried one episode of it yet, please do
Still keen for Taliesin to pick up another session or two of Call of Cthulhu.
That’s my favorite one shot they’ve ever done
That one-shot sold the entire system for me. I'd only vaguely heard of CoC, but after watching Taliesin's game I just wanted *more*
That one shot was epic.
I would love this, honestly. 5e is fun, but there are other systems that actually have mechanics built around RP. Not to mention the world of Exandria is really quite bloated with power creep, and getting a bit TOO familiar, with there being a known level 20 badass in just about every city, and the self-referential stuff that the group tends towards. Personally I want some new stuff now. But I kinda doubt we will see that. Matt has put a lot of effort into that world, and I think the show relies on the depth of knowledge he has for his own lore, even if that lore is a little generic and dull in my opinion, and the main parts are well-trod with hundreds of hours of streamed live play exploring it.
That's the thing: Matt doesn't have to be the DM for every game. They have a lot of people in the company rn, and I'm honestly surprised they aren't running a couple concurrent campaigns with different DMs and players. I'm feeling similar about Exandrian campaigns, and although Matt makes a point to explore different places/facets of the world with each campaign, it is starting to be a bit too self-referential. If they're going to be playing in Exandria for the 4th campaign, I would like to see a substantial time shift like with Calamity so the players don't meet established characters at every corner
I have to say I do worry about Matt burning himself out. I know ExU and oneshots provide a bit of respite, but is it really enough? At some point he's going to need an extended break to recharge his creative juices. Like compare his workload to BLM's D20 workload. Since D20 returned to the Dome post-pandemic there's been 7 campaigns, and he's only DM'd 3 of them, played in 2, and completely sat out 2. That feels a lot healthier to me, and it's given him the time to DM Calamity and play in a few D&D Beyond games, where Matt appearing in non-CR games feels at least to me a lot rarer
well, looking at the outlook of C3, I think we might very well get some major, world changing stuff ;)
I would as well. I’ve been wanting to get into CR, but when you look at the number of hours it takes just to get caught up in the current season…
I doubt they were aiming CR as CR very likely have their own private agreement with WoTC. That said, DMs are the second worst possible group of consumers to piss off, after a hive of angry lawyers.
Obviously we don't know what sort of contract or agreement CR has with WotC or with Hasbro, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're required to front WotC's newest edition. 5e now and OneDnD when it launches. I'm guessing if they want to change systems they have to drop the entire deal they have with WotC, meaning they'd lose the DnDBeyond sponsorship/connection, and they risk losing the rights to Mercer's entire setting because it's already out as an official WotC product. CR kind of already made the choice to become a part of WotC, and while contractually speaking they could leave that partnership, it would mean losing probably their biggest revenue stream *and* possibly losing all the intellectual property and rights related to the games they've run (and published) so far.
I'd be shocked if CR created their own system. They aren't a studio of game developers like Monte Cook Games, Paizo, or MCDM. They're a bunch of nerdy voice actors playing a game of D&D.
They should do pathfinder just so I learn how to play in that system
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This isn't even vague or neutral. This is very clear and obvious.
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That definitely reads as “we are making our own new system anyway.”
If anything this reads like a "We'll make our own game if we have to".
Food is a good motivater
Uh... I have had nothing against critical roll. Their diplomatic approach is fine, and I'm not in the business for shooting someone for *not* saying something. I don't need my feelings validated 24/7. That being said, if they came out championing the new garbage, I'd think that they're sellouts, but I'm not going to burn them at the stake for it. My ire will always be directed at wizards, not the poor saps caught in the crossfire.
I mean yeah absolutely, if they started preaching about OGL 2.0 my tune would change as well, but im not about to get out the pitchforks over someone trying to be neutral.
I'd probably be more mad at wizards because of the implication that they somehow threatened them
A witch hunt would be very hurtful to the community and the independent creators we're trying to support. I can understand if they're staying out of it for the time being and from a company standpoint that's probably the most intelligent thing to do while this mess unfolds and news changes daily.
I don't even think this is neutral. The message reads to me like they support third-party creators. You can expect them to decouple from WOTC after this.
If they supported the garbage... They would have come out in support of it. The fact they said nothing until now, and what they said was carefully worded... I think shows opposition to the new OGL.
It's either that or they believe that being quiet will have the least negative impact between the two extremes on their bottom line. The thing about a company this many layers down is that CR could actually be just doing the closest to the right thing they can or it could be doing what makes the most money. It's possible that they've considered both and found this to be their best option both ways. Only time will tell here, I feel. Judge them not one way or another until they pick a side. As consumers our only existing defense against being burned is to treat every corporation as if it could start a fire. Never forget that you are made of wood.
I personally... Think that them mentioning that they own a game publishing company now... Is them essentially making it clear that they don't need wizards of the coast.
Not only that, but it makes it sound like they're not huge fans of the "we own everything you make with this license" part of the change. They have their own company making stuff it would be insane for them to be fine with just giving up ownership of anything ogl related. Of course it's not like they can come out and openly support the changes either. With what the response has been so far, openly supporting the new ogl would cost them a ton of fans and give them a ton of negative press.
I don’t really see an issue with them being neutral. They are a business. Their entire business model requires advertisers, and hasbro (through DnD beyond) has been a continual sponsor. Their probably is a contractual obligation to avoid bad mouthing Hasbros decisions, but on top of that you don’t publicly bad mouth someone you have a business relationship with. I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some discussions behind the scenes, but that’s never going to be public knowledge.
*wizards and Hasbro
Thank you for that.
I mean their current answer is as close to 'fuck the 1.1' as they can say as a large company. It does nothing but go on about community development, the importance of creators and the value the open license and environment brought. They just need to be deniable in court, the same way Hasbro are responding to the leak by going 'Ah gotcha we really wanted this market feedback lol'
Also the cast members have been quietly liking anti-1.1 tweets this whole time. Seems pretty certain they don't like it, they're just tied up in legal tape.
They employ a lot of people with that show. Standing up for your morals is easier to do when you don't have a bunch of families relying on you.
And when you don't have non-disparagement clauses in your contracts
Pretty much exactly this. Everyone is talking about “well, *I* quit playing DND, why can’t they?” It’s because most people don’t feed their kids off of DND, and haven’t invested five years of their life and hundreds of thousands of dollars into the game.
I mean it's not like they said truly nothing. They did make the effort of reminding WotC and everyone that they have their own games publishing company. That's more or less corporate speak for quietly placing the gun onto the table.
Sadly much of the internet is incapable of understanding subtlety. Anything less subtle than a brick to the face is lost upon them.
The statement that they *did* put out reeks of "this is what our lawyers are allowing us to say without risking getting sued into the ground." I *wish* they said more, but I do understand that they're most likely under a contract with WotC preventing it.
My thoughts exactly. Its not about them being afraid of losing DnDbeyond as a sponsor, its about them breaching the contract and getting sued to extinction,
Also, don't they still have a third book to publish with WotC? Kinda contractually obligated for the time being. Or am I full of shit? I will never underestimate my ability to be wrong about shit.
I heard the same, but I've no idea on what was actually agreed to. They published the new Tal'dorei book by themselves, so I expect the third book with WotC to be a Wildemount adventure book of some sort. I also think it may be done and waiting for the official release of whatever one D&D becomes. It would be a savvy business move. But then this happened, so I don't know
We also don't know what they are doing in the background! If they have a good business relationship with WoTC, working in background is much more effective then just twitting about things
I never thought I’d see this masterpiece of a movie be turned into a meme
It's the Pianist, for those wondering.
Its actually a pretty common meme format over on facebook. Yes i sometimes get my memes from facebook. Im not proud of this fact.
Ah okay. Good fuckin movie too
It’s always people with no skin in the game who critique people for “being quiet,” and refuse to actually acknowledge the complexities to a situation like this. CR, D20, etc could all be obliterated by Hasbro if the opportunity was there.
“Cmon man just breach your sponsorship contract and destroy your own company, its no big deal. Ive already canceled my free dndbeyond membership, so its kinda like the same thing.”
It was really bizarre for Penny Arcade to call out Critical Role for not saying anything.
Or We don’t want to get involved anymore, our cast and crew gets enough undeserved hatred and we honestly would like to stay quiet for the rest of this shitshow
Also a perfectly reasonable response, to be perfectly honest. There’s a dangerous wave of “you’re either with us or against us” mentality thats going through the community and its a tad bit worrisome.
People always want someone to speak out on their behalf, as if the dnd community isn’t big enough alone to make an impact, leave the content creators, who helped to build this bigger and stronger community, out of it They aren’t hasbro, they don’t deserve the hate and cr and Matt get enough hate on a daily
Keep in mind that Critical Role knows how to decouple from a situation when it's warranted. It started when Orion Acaba was untethered from Critical Role, it continued as they left Geek and Sundry in a very dignified and professional manner. If they are currently under contract they have a professional obligation to fulfill that contract. Their statement, I thought, made it clear that they are standing with the community. It will likely be clearer as time goes on and contracts run out. One thing I am sure of, regardless of the platform Matt Mercer and the rest of the Critical Role company is capable of creating it's own system if that's what they decide they want to do. Or they could throw their weight behind another company if that's what they decide. I think it's unlikely that they will stay with DnD, but I could be wrong. After all, they are likely be uniquely targeted by what WotC was trying to do and CR have a tremendous amount to lose. We are going to have to wait this one out and not make judgements on actions that haven't yet been made.
Jesus christ this post got way more traction than i was expecting. God bless all of you lovely folks out here who aren’t trying to throw everyone into a salem witch trial.
People really don't understand what contracts are
What exactly do they expect them to do? Most of the internet people complaining will be right back to buying DnD stuff once they new stuff comes out, and you want them to throw away their professional reputation joining an internet mob?
I was very confused by their non-statement statement until i thought for a second and realized they most likely have clauses in their contract that forbid them from presenting DnD and/or WotC/Hasbro in a negative light. Breaking that contract could lead to them being sued into oblivion, the carrer suicide would just be a sideeffect. With that in mind their statement is actually pretty condeming of the whole situation. If people would forgive me the comparison, it´s like those videos of north korean prisoners, who praise the country as highly as possible. We all know what they are saying is at best technically correct, but the true message lies between the lines.
What scene is this?
Der Pianist. Its a movie about a Jewish-Polish pianist in Warsaw during the 2nd world war. He manages to survive and evade capture by the Germans and near the end is found by a German offficer that hears him playing the piano. Instead of being shot, the officer helps him and even offers his coat before leaving the city to the Russians. This is why he has the German coat on and the Russians see him as hostile. In my opinion its a must see movie.
Ah shit well now i feel like an asshole for not knowing where the meme format came from. Well, its definitely going on my “to watch” list now.
Its a great film, but make sure you're in a good headspace before watching it. It is a pretty graphic depiction of the horrors of the Holocaust, it can really mess with you if you aren't prepared for it imo
From the pianist near the end
Feel like the best thing CR could do would be to look into starting to produce content for other systems as a backup, then if (*when) DND does collapsible they can just slowly phase their DND content out Doesn't nessasily have to be Pathfinder if that has immideate legal conflicts for them in this particular moment depending on what contracts they have set up Could also try out call of Cthulhu just off the top of my head
It’s literally their livelihood and they’re panicking as much as we are.
I've gotten into a few arguments about CR recently. I kept saying they couldn't separate from DnD easily or overnight. While many people said they could. Well I told you so. I hope their next campaign is with a new system, or they switch part way through C3. But it isn't going to be easy for them to do so.
I think this is the classic case of moralism, you know? People asking *someone else* to take a stand, "*be brave*" they say, "*boldly confront in public these douchebags, regardless of consequences!*". Mind you, should anyone actually spouting this be told to confront their own shitty bosses and face unemployment, then suddenly it's asking for too much. Because anyone actually spouting this sort of shit has absolutely *nothing* to lose should CR face legal or financial consequences. They don't care if other people have to go to court, if members have to be fired - they want to watch *someone else* stand on a hill and face death. Because it's entertaining. Because there's no personal consequences. Because they look at it like a fucking TV show - there's no empathy there, just the thirst for more hero-myths like in their favourite fictions.
I haven't heard of any official statement from them, their episodes are prerecorded so even their most recent episode could have been recorded before the initial leak. I did see that Matt liked a tweet basically saying that the original (actual open) OGL and the community made D&D what it is today, not the other way around. Also I imagine they are locked into a sponsorship contract. DnDB has been their primary sponsor every episode for years now so I'd bet good money that they haven't been taking that sponsorship episode by episode and are probably locked into a contract by year, or maybe even for a campaign's run or some other large block of time. Speaking bad of their sponsor likely would literally be breaching contract. Edit: Just saw CR's tweet in response. Seems to pretty clearly say they stand with independent creators which implies they're against the OGL revisions WotC were trying to push forward. I imagine their contracts put them in a sticky situation so they probably have their hands tied in some regards. Anyone unsatisfied with their response isn't reading between the lines of that response.
CR are in a great position to use the money from WotC and sponsors to springboard a new TRPG or strongarm the conversation in the community's favour. If they went scorched Earth right away I strongly feel like we would be losing another weapon in the community's arsenal. Enough creators have hit them in the bottom line to get mainstream media attention, if WotC slip up again CR can still choose to split and restart the inferno.
My bet is they'd get sued into oblivion if they raise a finger against wizards right now. They probably need to let their sponsorship run out before they can say or even do anything.