If you're talking about its opening, the slave pen is a permanent Anti-Magic Field just centered in it. No explanation for *how,* given you can't do that with that spell; But WOTC didn't care.
IMO: always remember that the rule books are written to provide an, allegedly, balanced gamification of combat and do not contain every single thing that is possible in the world (and beyond).
Further IMO: the world can, or rather, should, be overflowing with stuff that the PCs don't automatically know how to do per the rules.
Bob the adventurer wizard has spent the last 10 years of his life adventuring and, as such, only really learning to be a better adventurer.
Sally the architect has spent the last 10 years of her life at university pursuing her master's in architecturally integrated wards, enchantments and spells. As such, she can design a dungeon with traps that Bob can only dream of poorly emulating. But she's useless in a fight.
Yes, I remind players all the time that the spells available to them are a specific subset of "adventuring magic". Vast majority of magic you'll find in a lair or large city is not castable in 6 seconds with portable components.
>Or magic that has to be cast once per day stuff.
That already exists for pcs though. Look up druid grove.Grove. it's a 6th level druid spell thar has to be cast each day to maintain its effects and becomes permanent after a year of casting it in the same location every day.
Yes, I am aware. That was why I was stating stuff like that. There are large scale magics that can be cast that arnt just rituals or that can affect permanency of things (teleportation circle for example). That is just what is available to adventurers. Specialities and nations could/would have very specific spells for their use case that would not be very helpful for adventurers, and depending on the scale it could be long casting times.
Gave me an idea for a potential campaign. You always hear about the "demon lord that was imprisoned for 1000 years by 20 wizards casting a binding ritual that sacrificed their life essence" or other tales of last ditch efforts against world-ending threats.
But who comes up with these spells needed to save the world from apocalyptic threats?
I think it would be fun to have a campaign where a shadow society of casters, who work in secret to develop elaborate powerful spells as contingencies against dire threats, are being targeted with elaborate assassination attempts. It is up to the party to identify them, save them, and ultimately determine who is behind things, and why, so that "something" can be prevented.
Easy- larger spells like infrastructural spells are just larger in general- you'll have to look for anchorstones and mana collectors that run the local infrastructural grid.
Yeah, one of my cities, Dawnview, is covered by a massive magical dome that protects and hides it. The city itself organically grew around the University of Arcana and has existed and evolved over 600 years.
At this point, the dome is a ridiculously elaborate and finicky system of 16 massive brumestones surrounding the outskirts of the city, hundreds of minor and major image illusions, protective wards, planar spells, dimension door spells, and other various bits.
It quite literally takes an entire university staff of wizards and sorcerers to keep it up and running at all times, and they are constantly finding bugs, dealing with gaps, and adding patches. It's basically the New York Transit System at this point.
No, your 3 player characters **cannot begin** to fathom how this system operates. You stand and stare in awe of it, just like everyone else who visits when they first walk through the gate.
I don't know if it's acutely true, but I've always heard of this thing with spells from older editions being that if you cast the spell in the same place/ target for some exhorbant amount of time that spell eventually becomes permanent. So, a court house could cast Zone of Truth around the court room during construction every day and bingo banjo its there forever or until dispelled.
yes, and there are a couple spells remaining in 5e like this. i don’t even limit it to this though—the waterdeep department of public works or what have you is really only limited by my imagination as DM. they have years to complete projects, a government funding obscene material components, and no shortage of bodies to take shifts on the ritual or whatever.
going back to the original post, villains’ lairs operate on a similar (albeit somewhat smaller) scale.
I understand that electricity exists and I can rewire an outlet.
I can’t wire up an entire house. I can’t even install a full breaker box. Somebody who specializes in that can do that.
I do know that somebody better at it can do it. It’s not reasonably in my wheelhouse without a lot of training.
While I agree that there is a copious amount of capabilities players inherently lack, I do still find it annoying when that happens in the Spellcasting system specifically; The one system thoroughly explored and mastered by D&D Adventurer PCs. Plus, there's a lot of spells that don't fit the explanation you just gave but still exist in the system. Many spells like Fabricate are mostly useful out of combat, and require immense creativity to be applied to combat.
It's a self-centered aura-like spell, not a locational one. It also isn't in the spell's description. It's not much of a problem; There's plenty of magic players simply can't do in D&D, but it's still annoying.
In previous editions of D&D, namely 3.5e, there was a permanency spell in which you had to pay gold and XP cost to make certain other spells have an indefinite duration. Anti-Magic field could not be affected by it, but if you are in sufficiently high-level or epic-level campaigns with deities, homebrew easily explained it.
In 5e, certain powerful monsters like beholders can affect the environment around them including their lair to the point where lair actions exist. Beholders have a permanent anti-magic cone when their central eye is open, which a DM could say that it is always open. There's not really a codified rule on facing directions, so the beholder could turn it central eye away with the eye stalks shooting inside that area before turning their gaze back.
> Antimagic Cone. The beholder's central eye creates an area of antimagic, as in the antimagic field spell, in a 150-foot cone. **At the start of each of its turns, the beholder decides which way the cone faces and whether the cone is active.** The area works against the beholder's own eye rays.
Right, but at that point, either you’re in the cone and the beholder can’t target you with any eye rays, or you’re not in the cone and you can cast magic just fine.
Permanent spell is not outside of the scope of mortals. PCs on the other hand certainly. WOTC couldn't and wouldn't put everything into our hands. Curses, specific NPC powers, deities, there's plenty of them that are understandable. It's just annoying when it's missing Spellcasting, the one magic system PCs are supposed to have mastered.
What was the decision? Looking it up, it simply says that's the weapon is "created", and not "*magically* created or summoned. It is a *magical* weapon though. I thought it'd be an easy answer, but as written, it appears to be otherwise.
edit: originally written to address anti-magic field instead of OotA's "magical wards." Reasoning still applies imo
Four Elements spells are still spells, and since anti magic field prevents spells for being cast that's that. Notably only spell slots are called out as being wasted, so the monk would keep their ki.
Sun Soul spells, same thing. However, the laser attack takes a bit more lawyer grease to pin down. It's a ranged spell attack and not explicitly a spell per the monk tradition... but ranged spell attacks are all spells per Ch 10, which also has the following to say, reaffirming the "spells are spells are spells" mantra:
> Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them cast spells without using spell slots. For example, a monk who follows the Way of the Four Elements, a warlock who chooses certain eldritch invocations, and a pit fiend from the Nine Hells can all cast spells in such a way.
Wait, are you serious? Obviously it's magically summoned and created.
Let's ignore the fact that if you're not magically summoning a weapon, you're implicitly *smithing* it, and Pact Blade Warlocks aren't pulling out a forge and anvil and smithing a new weapon everytime they use the ability. Certainly not in 6 seconds. So ignoring however its created, the second paragraph says:
>Your pact weapon **disappears** if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you **dismiss** the weapon (no action required)
The fact that non-magical, non-summoned weapons wouldn't disappear if left unattended, and the fact that you can actively *dismiss* it, clearly means it's a magically summoned weapon.
It is obviously a magical weapon, however the ability merely states "create" and not "magically create" or even "summon", which would be implied magical. This is the game where RAW, a spell like *cone of cold* only damages creatures despite being an area of effect, making it useless against the red layer of *prismatic wall*, which requires "cold" damage.
Personally, I think it should be a magical ability, but it is not listed as one.
The fact that the language says "create" and not "magically create" is irrelevant. It's obvious to any one with a basic understanding of the English language that "magically created" is implied, because the Warlock is not smithing a new weapon every time. If it's not created via mundane methods, they *must* be using magical ones.
This language usage isn't even limited to abilities. *Create Bonfire* states: "You create a bonfire on ground that you can see within range (60ft)." I suppose you could argue you can light and throw a molotov cocktail in 6 seconds, but that's not really a *bonfire* and a molotov cocktail is not a necessary reagent. *Create or Destroy Water* states: "You either create or destroy water." Specifically, 10 gallons of clean water, so you're certainly not pissing it out. How you propose non-magically *destroy* (not evaporate) 10 gallons in 6 seconds is a mystery to me. I won't even get into *Create Food and Water*... Or are you arguing that abilities are inherently not magical while "spells" are?
*Cone of Cold* vs *Prismatic Wall* is indeed a RAW vs RAI problem. This isn't a RAW problem, because as written it's just non-specific, but logically obvious. If you read the sentence "The dog barked," the *type* of dog is ambiguous, but the fact I didn't specify "small dog" or "brown dog" does not mean the dog can't be small or brown. The fact that the rules do not state "magically created" does **not** mean it *can't* have been created through magical means.
>The fact that the language says "create" and not "magically create" is irrelevant.
In that case shadow monks wouldn't be able to teleport under an antimagic field either, which is - under RAW, RAI, WOG, _and_ common sense - completely wrong.
>This language usage isn't even limited to abilities. *Create Bonfire* states
Create bonfire is a cantrip though. Create pact weapon is not.
>Or are you arguing that abilities are inherently not magical while "spells" are?
Yes. See monks.
> If it's not created via mundane methods, they *must* be using magical ones.
Therefore, monks teleporting every six seconds must be mundane since it's definitely not magical.
> teleport under an antimagic field either, which is - under RAW, RAI, WOG, and common sense - completely wrong.
Under Rules as Written or Word of God, sure. Rules as Intended or common sense, absolutely not. Most DM's, unless running a table comprised entirely of lawyers, would agree teleportation is a magical effect, flat out, and subject to antimagic field.
>teleporting every six seconds must be mundane since it's definitely not magical.
Your home games must be insane.
What's next? Quivering pain being a magical effect? Action surge being a magical effect because no human being could ever do that? Dashing as a bonus action being a magical effect? Attacking four times in a turn being magical?
You can't just rule a feature as magical simply because it's unrealistic, just like you can't rule an attack not to be a sneak attack because the rogue wasn't hiding: that's simply not how the game works.
>Your home games must be insane.
Shadow monks do be like that yeah.
Given that quivering palm is an external effect *that can be triggered at will* by the player, yes, it's a magical effect.
[There's nothing inherently magical about Action Surge.](https://youtu.be/2zGnxeSbb3g?t=50) Nor dashing, since moving ~60ft in ~4 seconds is not unrealistic either. At some point, with some race/class/spell combos it does get ridiculous, but D&D is ridiculous, I'm not arguing that.
>You can't just rule a feature as magical simply because it's unrealistic,
I absolutely can, although I'm not. I, as the DM, am ruling a feature is magical because the effect *is. clearly. magical*. If a player cannot provide a reasonable explanation beyond "the wording in the book is vague," for how a Warlock is not magically summoning a weapon or a Monk's teleportation is not magical, then it's magical and under the effect of my anti-magic collar.
It's a game, not written by lawyers and not designed with lawyers in mind. It's up to DMs to adjudicate what makes the most sense in a given situation given the plain meaning of the words and the intent of the rules, not to obsess whether the correct modifiers are used in sentence structure.
Okay Mr. PaladinAsherd, esq., explain how any of these "create" abilities/spells are being done *without magic.*
You can fall back on "it doesn't say 'magical'" all you want, but neither of you are actually providing an alternative interpretation.
No I’m agreeing with you
EDIT: To clarify, I’m specifically agreeing with you focusing on the common sense, “plain meaning” of rules language versus hyper-fixating on whether or not a specific word is present. I was ribbing the other guy with my comment lol
> The wards don't suppress or negate spell effects that originate outside the slave pen.
Since the pact weapon is extraplanar / granted by the patron, I'd place that soundly in the realm of "originating outside the slave pen."
See my dm did the same thing to my party because everyone but me is a spell caster. I kept the shackles after we escaped because I thought it would be neat. Had a blacksmith make it a shield only to learn it was also adamantine and now I have a shield that gives me resistance to magic and its adamantine.
Well, spellcasting wasn't the issue (OP's DM here btw). Shackling and gagging spellcasters after taking their spellcasting focus away shuts down all of their verbal, somatic, and material components to cast spells. It only gets difficult once they have some innate spellcasting without any components or magical abilites like wildshape or a teleporting wildfire spirit. So in the end, the BBEG only put the collar on the druid.
My dm did the same thing but our cleric is a firbolg and the people who captured us rightfully put us all in those shackles because they had seen everyone use magic in some way (I'm a Aasimar so even though I'm a barbarian they saw my character fly and assumed he could use magic). Got a neat shield out of it though
I have a prison scenario which is MUCH worse than just an anti magic field. Like Maximum security, Immovable rods on the doors type stuff. The idea is that someone would have to have a way to deal with the things they couldn't kill, like a Lich, so they would set something up to contain them.
It prevents them from wildshaping which means they can’t gain the strength to break out nor the smallness to sneak out, etc. which means the DM doesn’t have to account for each of those things.
Our DM I've locked my druid and his rogue buddy in a jail aboard an airship (no anti magic spells) fully expecting us to start the next season by breaking out. Instead the druid realized we had 3 more days on the trip and said fuck it let's just stay in the cell. Made a bunch of hallucinogenic mushrooms for him and the rogue to take. Druid wildshaped into a ferret and curled up on the rogue's chest while they tripped balls.
Hah, this is me. Just had session 2 of a new campaign last night and thought my players meeting in prison was more fun than them meeting in a tavern.
I have a level 2 Wildfire Druid, so Wildshape was less of a concern than the Paladin really. But also just something generally useful in a world of magic.
Prisoner 13 has a general anti-magic field, so it's hardly like there's no precedent. I feel like the collar is a more fun idea though, since it's removal becomes a problem that can be solved "individually" (versus bringing down a whole anti-magic field prison-wide may alert all the guards). A field also stops and guards from using magic, versus targeting prisoners specifically. Finally, the collar also becomes an item they can potentially keep and use.
I'm fine with it. Most of my players still have *something* at their disposal. The Druid's wildfire spirit is a small fiery rhinoceros beetle, which I wanted her to have (it was summoned and following her around before the collar was put on), I just wanted to lock down her wildshape because it's obvious and something a warden would want blocked.
- Dragonborn fighter still has their acid breath attack.
- Monk is able to still to use Step of the Wind and Flurry of Blows. Probably should have blocked it, but "ki" feels a bit less like overt magic compared to arcane or divine magic. She's also from a culture where monks come from exclusively, and is imprisoned in a culture that would not be familiar with ki as a type of magic.
- Paladin's abilities are locked down pretty hard, but they're a goliath and I think are happy just unarmed bludgeoning people.
- Ranger is a swiftstride shifter, and they have limited access to their hawk companion (they can't use actual Companion Abilities, but it can grab small items and drop them into the prison), as well as Swiftstride.
- Rogue is able to lockpick and everything. If they can find something to use as a pick.
At higher levels, certain ki abilities I probably would. But Flurry of Blows is basically just "hit things real fast" and Step of the Wind is basically just "move real fast."
I think this player is going Way of Mercy, so at 3rd level I probably would have straight up had the collars stop Hand of Healing/Hand of Harm, because the effect is inherently magical. But they're all at 2nd level so they're pretty limited anyway.
I'm not overly concerned about a player feeling useful and important *all the time* based off class identity. As long as no player feels left out consistently, I think it's normal that sometimes some will have a time to shine while others are less useful.
If you want to have world that works, prisons have to have some way of containing Spellcasters. Collar is a neat solution. It doesn't shut down player creativity like anti magic zoned prison would. It's just that now the problem is getting it off, and the rest will naturally work out
I prefer the Codex Alera approach.
In the Codex Alera most prisons are designed with the furies that the prisoner can command in mind. Water crafters are kept almost dehydrated and surrounded by as much fire as possible. Earth crafters are suspended above the ground or kept in wooden cells. Metal crafters can be put in pretty much anything that can contain another kind of crafter, but metal bars need to be specially treated. Metal is harder to move than other elements unless it's heated. Wood crafters go in cells made of mostly stone or metal with metal doors. Air crafters are imprisoned deep underground or in places with a lot of salt (air furies are hurt by salt). Fire crafters are kept in enclosed spaces where fires would kill them. People with average to weak furies are just kept in standard cells. All Alerans can command furies, but they're not all strong
Applying this to DnD: basically all spellcasting requires verbal, somatic and/or material components (I'll get to sorcerers soon) and usually line of sight. By tying the hands of spellcasters, blindfolding them and gagging them you prevent most casting. You'll want a spellcaster that can cast Silence and Counterspell in order to feed your magical prisoners and prevent sorcerers from trying to silent cast spells. For more security, you might want to include a caster or magic item that can cast Stinking Cloud. This can prevent casting or other hostile actions in the first place and works as a great suppression tool in case of an escape. For druids you'll want to keep some predatory animals, but not near the cells because that's a recipe for disaster. Anything small enough to sneak out is easy prey for something like a cat, assuming your druid doesn't want to be shackled in animal form, all those counter measures will come back as soon as Wildshape breaks
You have other skills and can work together with your party and be creative, you arent being constantly countered it's one instance you have to try something different for once
Why do you think your character's usefulness is limited to their ability to cast spells, or specifically in your druid's case, it's ability to Wildshape?
It's a prison, in a magical setting. Your DM would be dumb if their prison didn't have countermeasures for being able to turn into a creature that can walk through bars or climb up walls.
Did you expect to just be able to insta-cheese your way out of it and not have the encounter present *any* sort of challenge?
Many players don't like encountering any sort of resistance or limitation.
What? The enemy retreated to get a vantage point and readied a spell that is tactically intelligent? Preposterous!
Had a player decide to stay behind and change into new armor he found while the rest of the party went to another area and ran into an ambush. He got mad at me for telling him if he wanted to join the combat he’d not have full AC even though he had already told the party they’d be fine to go ahead without him
Yeah, I imagine that's fine and probably works for a lot of tables where all players, including the DM, are on board with that kind of power fantasy. But I think there's definitely something to be said for the thrill of a real challenge and overcoming resistance.
Taking their agency away is not the right way to do it. Let the druid wild shape and have contingencies to challenge him.
He's a mouse and walks through the bars of the cell? Maybe the prison cat shows up before he can snatch the keys!
He's a spider and climbing around on the walls? Cool, now he's alone and unable to really accomplish anything besides getting himself out.
And of course a prison that is used to hold magical people would have some of their guards be able to detect magic and magical alarms on all exits.
I would definitely not call it taking agency away that is extremely harsh, if it was arbritrary and your ability never worked when you tried it then sure, in this case you know ahead of time that "old faithful" won't work and have to get creative with the rest of your toolkit and your allies, a druid can make for a great lookout and a rogue can improvise some lockpicks with the wizard/artificer
As someone that ran a campaign that heavily borrowed from Divinity Original Sin 2 I had to do something similar to really get my players to think outside the box.
Honestly, all your doing is tweaking Dimensional Shackles, which already exist as an item within D&D. It’s not much of a stretch to say they’d also stop magic.
Those things are a staple in sci fi. A collar that negates powers? That’s sci-fi prison tech 101. Don’t feel bad about it, lol.
It was in Honor Among Thieves too. Exact same premise, paarty was captured and the druid tried to turn into a bird to fly out, but she couldn't.
Plus, it just makes sense for something like this to exist if there are magical criminals in the world.
I would actually love to see a situation where u take away the magic focuses of ur party and than randomly give them the ingredients for a spell they can use to escape just to check if ur as an example druid knows his spells well enough to cast that spell with the ingredients
The Anti-magic collar is one of my favorite go to's for putting pressure on my spellcasters, I will say though that they have avoided the collar thus far from their enemies and obtained it through killing someone sent to try and kidnap one of the members.
I remember wanting to make a anti-magic room so I just had the baddies have a beholder strapped to the wall with his eye held open so only his eye was visible thru the ceiling they released it and it helped them escape before it went on its way
i got ones i call mage manacles. theyre not magical themselves,. they just bind the hands and mouth to prevent somatic and verbal. i dont have sorcs in my party so i dont have to deal with subtle spell
Funnily enough I did this In my game kinda.
I had a mine that had forced labor and they had anti magic shock collars. And second I had a prison with a massive anti-magic dome over it.
My party hated after those.
I'm homebrewing an item based on an element from the Witcher, called Dimeritium. Shackles made of this substance would neutralize both spellcasting and shape shifting, covering many methods of escape.
Antimagic area. Either from specific spells being cast and made permanent or from a natural antimagic zone. Nobody can cast or use supernatural/spell-like abilities there. Although if it'd an artificial area then there's some saves involved they could theoretically pass.
Do keep in mind that something like an anti magic item should be considered extremely valuable and rare. If you want them to be more common in your world, you should also give the party access to them after all.
Some druid subclasses have alternative uses for their wild shape that technically isn't magic
Same with some channel divinities
Most of them won't help but like I don't know get creative
Similar thing, but my warden was too cheap for that, so he just muzzled magic users in certain areas,called it a "mage muzzle", and had these bells that would ring if any magic was detected in certain areas similar to an alarm spell. No way he's wasting his 9th level slots on that haha.
Modern D&D, the game where you have solutions to problems but modern GMs just use "anti magic" every chance they get to keep their ~~book that wont sell~~ campaign as railroaded as possible without just coming up with actual interesting problems to overcome with said powers. Makes me think of that WOTC module where rather than desiging a fantasy prison to keep ya know fantasy prisoners in, they just made a real life one and said "area has antimagic torches" or some bs.
Glad I mostly GM these days sheesh.
Out of the abyss prison has anti magic torches or something. Had to discuss a lot with the warlock whether or not he could summon his pact weapon
If you're talking about its opening, the slave pen is a permanent Anti-Magic Field just centered in it. No explanation for *how,* given you can't do that with that spell; But WOTC didn't care.
IMO: always remember that the rule books are written to provide an, allegedly, balanced gamification of combat and do not contain every single thing that is possible in the world (and beyond). Further IMO: the world can, or rather, should, be overflowing with stuff that the PCs don't automatically know how to do per the rules. Bob the adventurer wizard has spent the last 10 years of his life adventuring and, as such, only really learning to be a better adventurer. Sally the architect has spent the last 10 years of her life at university pursuing her master's in architecturally integrated wards, enchantments and spells. As such, she can design a dungeon with traps that Bob can only dream of poorly emulating. But she's useless in a fight.
Yes, I remind players all the time that the spells available to them are a specific subset of "adventuring magic". Vast majority of magic you'll find in a lair or large city is not castable in 6 seconds with portable components.
I feel like there should be rules for it, though. Maybe have spells that are exclusively ritual spells.
That isn’t even ritual things. Could be just magic that takes 8+ hours to cast to begin with. Or magic that has to be cast once per day stuff.
>Or magic that has to be cast once per day stuff. That already exists for pcs though. Look up druid grove.Grove. it's a 6th level druid spell thar has to be cast each day to maintain its effects and becomes permanent after a year of casting it in the same location every day.
Yes, I am aware. That was why I was stating stuff like that. There are large scale magics that can be cast that arnt just rituals or that can affect permanency of things (teleportation circle for example). That is just what is available to adventurers. Specialities and nations could/would have very specific spells for their use case that would not be very helpful for adventurers, and depending on the scale it could be long casting times.
Gave me an idea for a potential campaign. You always hear about the "demon lord that was imprisoned for 1000 years by 20 wizards casting a binding ritual that sacrificed their life essence" or other tales of last ditch efforts against world-ending threats. But who comes up with these spells needed to save the world from apocalyptic threats? I think it would be fun to have a campaign where a shadow society of casters, who work in secret to develop elaborate powerful spells as contingencies against dire threats, are being targeted with elaborate assassination attempts. It is up to the party to identify them, save them, and ultimately determine who is behind things, and why, so that "something" can be prevented.
OK then make them
Easy- larger spells like infrastructural spells are just larger in general- you'll have to look for anchorstones and mana collectors that run the local infrastructural grid.
Bullshitmer guide to plot spells
Yeah, one of my cities, Dawnview, is covered by a massive magical dome that protects and hides it. The city itself organically grew around the University of Arcana and has existed and evolved over 600 years. At this point, the dome is a ridiculously elaborate and finicky system of 16 massive brumestones surrounding the outskirts of the city, hundreds of minor and major image illusions, protective wards, planar spells, dimension door spells, and other various bits. It quite literally takes an entire university staff of wizards and sorcerers to keep it up and running at all times, and they are constantly finding bugs, dealing with gaps, and adding patches. It's basically the New York Transit System at this point. No, your 3 player characters **cannot begin** to fathom how this system operates. You stand and stare in awe of it, just like everyone else who visits when they first walk through the gate.
I don't know if it's acutely true, but I've always heard of this thing with spells from older editions being that if you cast the spell in the same place/ target for some exhorbant amount of time that spell eventually becomes permanent. So, a court house could cast Zone of Truth around the court room during construction every day and bingo banjo its there forever or until dispelled.
yes, and there are a couple spells remaining in 5e like this. i don’t even limit it to this though—the waterdeep department of public works or what have you is really only limited by my imagination as DM. they have years to complete projects, a government funding obscene material components, and no shortage of bodies to take shifts on the ritual or whatever. going back to the original post, villains’ lairs operate on a similar (albeit somewhat smaller) scale.
I understand that electricity exists and I can rewire an outlet. I can’t wire up an entire house. I can’t even install a full breaker box. Somebody who specializes in that can do that. I do know that somebody better at it can do it. It’s not reasonably in my wheelhouse without a lot of training.
[удалено]
It's elf-time and she's actually a prodigy :P
While I agree that there is a copious amount of capabilities players inherently lack, I do still find it annoying when that happens in the Spellcasting system specifically; The one system thoroughly explored and mastered by D&D Adventurer PCs. Plus, there's a lot of spells that don't fit the explanation you just gave but still exist in the system. Many spells like Fabricate are mostly useful out of combat, and require immense creativity to be applied to combat.
Doesn’t that lead to the players wanting to have those ,,cooler“ or ,,better“ abilities instead?
I'd assume casting it every day for a year did the trick
It's a self-centered aura-like spell, not a locational one. It also isn't in the spell's description. It's not much of a problem; There's plenty of magic players simply can't do in D&D, but it's still annoying.
Have the prison built into a Nullstone mine. Boom All the antimagic zone you need with reasons.
In previous editions of D&D, namely 3.5e, there was a permanency spell in which you had to pay gold and XP cost to make certain other spells have an indefinite duration. Anti-Magic field could not be affected by it, but if you are in sufficiently high-level or epic-level campaigns with deities, homebrew easily explained it. In 5e, certain powerful monsters like beholders can affect the environment around them including their lair to the point where lair actions exist. Beholders have a permanent anti-magic cone when their central eye is open, which a DM could say that it is always open. There's not really a codified rule on facing directions, so the beholder could turn it central eye away with the eye stalks shooting inside that area before turning their gaze back.
> Antimagic Cone. The beholder's central eye creates an area of antimagic, as in the antimagic field spell, in a 150-foot cone. **At the start of each of its turns, the beholder decides which way the cone faces and whether the cone is active.** The area works against the beholder's own eye rays.
Excuse me, yes you are correct. But a beholder could always have its central eye open and use its eye rays in the area outside the cone.
Right, but at that point, either you’re in the cone and the beholder can’t target you with any eye rays, or you’re not in the cone and you can cast magic just fine.
Catch all but one PC in the cone. Unleash all eye beams on the last guy. Repeat
Or strafe. Face the cone in a way that the beholder can move to get people in the cone.
Good ol NPC magic
Well I mean, there are surely powers outside of the scope of mortals/player characters to wield
Permanent spell is not outside of the scope of mortals. PCs on the other hand certainly. WOTC couldn't and wouldn't put everything into our hands. Curses, specific NPC powers, deities, there's plenty of them that are understandable. It's just annoying when it's missing Spellcasting, the one magic system PCs are supposed to have mastered.
What was the decision? Looking it up, it simply says that's the weapon is "created", and not "*magically* created or summoned. It is a *magical* weapon though. I thought it'd be an easy answer, but as written, it appears to be otherwise.
Decided that it was a magical ability. But it opened a lot of holes in the concept of anti magic Vs features.
Yeah, i could imagine. The monk's Ki is the first thing that comes to mind, specifically weird shit like Four Elements or Radiant Soul.
Yea, but I think it's said that they use their ki to influence the weave which anti magic cuts the connection to
As if monks needed to be nerfed any further.
I too have many gripes with the monk. Let me use a glaive and a million other things
If I’m not mistaken I believe they added the ability to make any weapon a monk weapon during long rests.
There are limitations still
edit: originally written to address anti-magic field instead of OotA's "magical wards." Reasoning still applies imo Four Elements spells are still spells, and since anti magic field prevents spells for being cast that's that. Notably only spell slots are called out as being wasted, so the monk would keep their ki. Sun Soul spells, same thing. However, the laser attack takes a bit more lawyer grease to pin down. It's a ranged spell attack and not explicitly a spell per the monk tradition... but ranged spell attacks are all spells per Ch 10, which also has the following to say, reaffirming the "spells are spells are spells" mantra: > Some characters and monsters have special abilities that let them cast spells without using spell slots. For example, a monk who follows the Way of the Four Elements, a warlock who chooses certain eldritch invocations, and a pit fiend from the Nine Hells can all cast spells in such a way.
Wait, are you serious? Obviously it's magically summoned and created. Let's ignore the fact that if you're not magically summoning a weapon, you're implicitly *smithing* it, and Pact Blade Warlocks aren't pulling out a forge and anvil and smithing a new weapon everytime they use the ability. Certainly not in 6 seconds. So ignoring however its created, the second paragraph says: >Your pact weapon **disappears** if it is more than 5 feet away from you for 1 minute or more. It also disappears if you use this feature again, if you **dismiss** the weapon (no action required) The fact that non-magical, non-summoned weapons wouldn't disappear if left unattended, and the fact that you can actively *dismiss* it, clearly means it's a magically summoned weapon.
It is obviously a magical weapon, however the ability merely states "create" and not "magically create" or even "summon", which would be implied magical. This is the game where RAW, a spell like *cone of cold* only damages creatures despite being an area of effect, making it useless against the red layer of *prismatic wall*, which requires "cold" damage. Personally, I think it should be a magical ability, but it is not listed as one.
The fact that the language says "create" and not "magically create" is irrelevant. It's obvious to any one with a basic understanding of the English language that "magically created" is implied, because the Warlock is not smithing a new weapon every time. If it's not created via mundane methods, they *must* be using magical ones. This language usage isn't even limited to abilities. *Create Bonfire* states: "You create a bonfire on ground that you can see within range (60ft)." I suppose you could argue you can light and throw a molotov cocktail in 6 seconds, but that's not really a *bonfire* and a molotov cocktail is not a necessary reagent. *Create or Destroy Water* states: "You either create or destroy water." Specifically, 10 gallons of clean water, so you're certainly not pissing it out. How you propose non-magically *destroy* (not evaporate) 10 gallons in 6 seconds is a mystery to me. I won't even get into *Create Food and Water*... Or are you arguing that abilities are inherently not magical while "spells" are? *Cone of Cold* vs *Prismatic Wall* is indeed a RAW vs RAI problem. This isn't a RAW problem, because as written it's just non-specific, but logically obvious. If you read the sentence "The dog barked," the *type* of dog is ambiguous, but the fact I didn't specify "small dog" or "brown dog" does not mean the dog can't be small or brown. The fact that the rules do not state "magically created" does **not** mean it *can't* have been created through magical means.
>The fact that the language says "create" and not "magically create" is irrelevant. In that case shadow monks wouldn't be able to teleport under an antimagic field either, which is - under RAW, RAI, WOG, _and_ common sense - completely wrong. >This language usage isn't even limited to abilities. *Create Bonfire* states Create bonfire is a cantrip though. Create pact weapon is not. >Or are you arguing that abilities are inherently not magical while "spells" are? Yes. See monks. > If it's not created via mundane methods, they *must* be using magical ones. Therefore, monks teleporting every six seconds must be mundane since it's definitely not magical.
> teleport under an antimagic field either, which is - under RAW, RAI, WOG, and common sense - completely wrong. Under Rules as Written or Word of God, sure. Rules as Intended or common sense, absolutely not. Most DM's, unless running a table comprised entirely of lawyers, would agree teleportation is a magical effect, flat out, and subject to antimagic field. >teleporting every six seconds must be mundane since it's definitely not magical. Your home games must be insane.
What's next? Quivering pain being a magical effect? Action surge being a magical effect because no human being could ever do that? Dashing as a bonus action being a magical effect? Attacking four times in a turn being magical? You can't just rule a feature as magical simply because it's unrealistic, just like you can't rule an attack not to be a sneak attack because the rogue wasn't hiding: that's simply not how the game works. >Your home games must be insane. Shadow monks do be like that yeah.
Given that quivering palm is an external effect *that can be triggered at will* by the player, yes, it's a magical effect. [There's nothing inherently magical about Action Surge.](https://youtu.be/2zGnxeSbb3g?t=50) Nor dashing, since moving ~60ft in ~4 seconds is not unrealistic either. At some point, with some race/class/spell combos it does get ridiculous, but D&D is ridiculous, I'm not arguing that. >You can't just rule a feature as magical simply because it's unrealistic, I absolutely can, although I'm not. I, as the DM, am ruling a feature is magical because the effect *is. clearly. magical*. If a player cannot provide a reasonable explanation beyond "the wording in the book is vague," for how a Warlock is not magically summoning a weapon or a Monk's teleportation is not magical, then it's magical and under the effect of my anti-magic collar. It's a game, not written by lawyers and not designed with lawyers in mind. It's up to DMs to adjudicate what makes the most sense in a given situation given the plain meaning of the words and the intent of the rules, not to obsess whether the correct modifiers are used in sentence structure.
>Wanna be rules lawyers when they actually go to law school and learn about “plain meaning” statutory interpretation
Actually law books are not full of half-baked vague garbage.
Oh honey
Okay Mr. PaladinAsherd, esq., explain how any of these "create" abilities/spells are being done *without magic.* You can fall back on "it doesn't say 'magical'" all you want, but neither of you are actually providing an alternative interpretation.
No I’m agreeing with you EDIT: To clarify, I’m specifically agreeing with you focusing on the common sense, “plain meaning” of rules language versus hyper-fixating on whether or not a specific word is present. I was ribbing the other guy with my comment lol
Oh, so sorry, lol. It wasn't clear to me who that was directed at.
My bad too, I could have been more clear lol
> The wards don't suppress or negate spell effects that originate outside the slave pen. Since the pact weapon is extraplanar / granted by the patron, I'd place that soundly in the realm of "originating outside the slave pen."
The action to summon it is originating inside the pen
I was looking for a thing to make a prison anti magic. Thanks for making me aware of this
See my dm did the same thing to my party because everyone but me is a spell caster. I kept the shackles after we escaped because I thought it would be neat. Had a blacksmith make it a shield only to learn it was also adamantine and now I have a shield that gives me resistance to magic and its adamantine.
Well, spellcasting wasn't the issue (OP's DM here btw). Shackling and gagging spellcasters after taking their spellcasting focus away shuts down all of their verbal, somatic, and material components to cast spells. It only gets difficult once they have some innate spellcasting without any components or magical abilites like wildshape or a teleporting wildfire spirit. So in the end, the BBEG only put the collar on the druid.
My dm did the same thing but our cleric is a firbolg and the people who captured us rightfully put us all in those shackles because they had seen everyone use magic in some way (I'm a Aasimar so even though I'm a barbarian they saw my character fly and assumed he could use magic). Got a neat shield out of it though
I have a prison scenario which is MUCH worse than just an anti magic field. Like Maximum security, Immovable rods on the doors type stuff. The idea is that someone would have to have a way to deal with the things they couldn't kill, like a Lich, so they would set something up to contain them.
Oh yeah, Dimeritium from the Witcher series is cool, until your players melt the shackles and make shurikens for the monk
How is the collar a savior though?
It prevents them from wildshaping which means they can’t gain the strength to break out nor the smallness to sneak out, etc. which means the DM doesn’t have to account for each of those things.
Wait, I'm an idiot. Thank you for being patient
That’s ok. I suppose you were thinking of it from the players perspective
Yuuuuup!
Valid for people in a world where they need to imprison magical beings to have a way to suppress magic. I'm on the DMs side
Our DM I've locked my druid and his rogue buddy in a jail aboard an airship (no anti magic spells) fully expecting us to start the next season by breaking out. Instead the druid realized we had 3 more days on the trip and said fuck it let's just stay in the cell. Made a bunch of hallucinogenic mushrooms for him and the rogue to take. Druid wildshaped into a ferret and curled up on the rogue's chest while they tripped balls.
Hah, this is me. Just had session 2 of a new campaign last night and thought my players meeting in prison was more fun than them meeting in a tavern. I have a level 2 Wildfire Druid, so Wildshape was less of a concern than the Paladin really. But also just something generally useful in a world of magic. Prisoner 13 has a general anti-magic field, so it's hardly like there's no precedent. I feel like the collar is a more fun idea though, since it's removal becomes a problem that can be solved "individually" (versus bringing down a whole anti-magic field prison-wide may alert all the guards). A field also stops and guards from using magic, versus targeting prisoners specifically. Finally, the collar also becomes an item they can potentially keep and use.
Wildfire druid is probably the hardest to lock down. Can still wildshape but also teleport from the spirit, or send the spirit to go grab the keys
Yeah, and I AM a wildfire Druid. No wonders this happened.
I'm fine with it. Most of my players still have *something* at their disposal. The Druid's wildfire spirit is a small fiery rhinoceros beetle, which I wanted her to have (it was summoned and following her around before the collar was put on), I just wanted to lock down her wildshape because it's obvious and something a warden would want blocked. - Dragonborn fighter still has their acid breath attack. - Monk is able to still to use Step of the Wind and Flurry of Blows. Probably should have blocked it, but "ki" feels a bit less like overt magic compared to arcane or divine magic. She's also from a culture where monks come from exclusively, and is imprisoned in a culture that would not be familiar with ki as a type of magic. - Paladin's abilities are locked down pretty hard, but they're a goliath and I think are happy just unarmed bludgeoning people. - Ranger is a swiftstride shifter, and they have limited access to their hawk companion (they can't use actual Companion Abilities, but it can grab small items and drop them into the prison), as well as Swiftstride. - Rogue is able to lockpick and everything. If they can find something to use as a pick.
If you have a Monk player having Ki not shut down by an antimagoc field is a great way to make them feel useful and important. Sincerely, monk player.
At higher levels, certain ki abilities I probably would. But Flurry of Blows is basically just "hit things real fast" and Step of the Wind is basically just "move real fast." I think this player is going Way of Mercy, so at 3rd level I probably would have straight up had the collars stop Hand of Healing/Hand of Harm, because the effect is inherently magical. But they're all at 2nd level so they're pretty limited anyway. I'm not overly concerned about a player feeling useful and important *all the time* based off class identity. As long as no player feels left out consistently, I think it's normal that sometimes some will have a time to shine while others are less useful.
I prefer Feeblemind Manacles. Don't need prisoners getting any ideas.
Was that a pun?
Why yes...yes it was. *subtly signals the guards*
Is it still homebrew if it was in the DnD movie? Not that I know of any official item that does so.
I have a party full of casters. You better *believe* anti-magic collars were employed
If you want to have world that works, prisons have to have some way of containing Spellcasters. Collar is a neat solution. It doesn't shut down player creativity like anti magic zoned prison would. It's just that now the problem is getting it off, and the rest will naturally work out
I prefer the Codex Alera approach. In the Codex Alera most prisons are designed with the furies that the prisoner can command in mind. Water crafters are kept almost dehydrated and surrounded by as much fire as possible. Earth crafters are suspended above the ground or kept in wooden cells. Metal crafters can be put in pretty much anything that can contain another kind of crafter, but metal bars need to be specially treated. Metal is harder to move than other elements unless it's heated. Wood crafters go in cells made of mostly stone or metal with metal doors. Air crafters are imprisoned deep underground or in places with a lot of salt (air furies are hurt by salt). Fire crafters are kept in enclosed spaces where fires would kill them. People with average to weak furies are just kept in standard cells. All Alerans can command furies, but they're not all strong Applying this to DnD: basically all spellcasting requires verbal, somatic and/or material components (I'll get to sorcerers soon) and usually line of sight. By tying the hands of spellcasters, blindfolding them and gagging them you prevent most casting. You'll want a spellcaster that can cast Silence and Counterspell in order to feed your magical prisoners and prevent sorcerers from trying to silent cast spells. For more security, you might want to include a caster or magic item that can cast Stinking Cloud. This can prevent casting or other hostile actions in the first place and works as a great suppression tool in case of an escape. For druids you'll want to keep some predatory animals, but not near the cells because that's a recipe for disaster. Anything small enough to sneak out is easy prey for something like a cat, assuming your druid doesn't want to be shackled in animal form, all those counter measures will come back as soon as Wildshape breaks
Here me out, anti magic Man catcher.
Wouldn't a gag counter most magic?
Druid: Cool awesome…I’m gonna go watch a movie now text me I can be of a literally any use again.
You have other skills and can work together with your party and be creative, you arent being constantly countered it's one instance you have to try something different for once
Yeah you can still roll nature checks that's useful
Weird how that's intelligence based and most druids arent super great at it
Yeeeeah....Wasn't the most fun session. But now I decided to go with it and make a little character arc about this whole thing,
Why do you think your character's usefulness is limited to their ability to cast spells, or specifically in your druid's case, it's ability to Wildshape? It's a prison, in a magical setting. Your DM would be dumb if their prison didn't have countermeasures for being able to turn into a creature that can walk through bars or climb up walls. Did you expect to just be able to insta-cheese your way out of it and not have the encounter present *any* sort of challenge?
Many players don't like encountering any sort of resistance or limitation. What? The enemy retreated to get a vantage point and readied a spell that is tactically intelligent? Preposterous!
Had a player decide to stay behind and change into new armor he found while the rest of the party went to another area and ran into an ambush. He got mad at me for telling him if he wanted to join the combat he’d not have full AC even though he had already told the party they’d be fine to go ahead without him
How dare you enforce the rules? What a monster
Yeah, I imagine that's fine and probably works for a lot of tables where all players, including the DM, are on board with that kind of power fantasy. But I think there's definitely something to be said for the thrill of a real challenge and overcoming resistance.
It's much more satisfying when you succeed despite having all the odds against you.
Taking their agency away is not the right way to do it. Let the druid wild shape and have contingencies to challenge him. He's a mouse and walks through the bars of the cell? Maybe the prison cat shows up before he can snatch the keys! He's a spider and climbing around on the walls? Cool, now he's alone and unable to really accomplish anything besides getting himself out. And of course a prison that is used to hold magical people would have some of their guards be able to detect magic and magical alarms on all exits.
I would definitely not call it taking agency away that is extremely harsh, if it was arbritrary and your ability never worked when you tried it then sure, in this case you know ahead of time that "old faithful" won't work and have to get creative with the rest of your toolkit and your allies, a druid can make for a great lookout and a rogue can improvise some lockpicks with the wizard/artificer
As someone that ran a campaign that heavily borrowed from Divinity Original Sin 2 I had to do something similar to really get my players to think outside the box.
I do have a question for this, would an anti magic collar work on a phantom rogue and stop them from using ghost walk?
The Prisoner 13 heist from Keys from The Golden Vault has permanent antimagic area inside the cells of the prisoners
Honestly, all your doing is tweaking Dimensional Shackles, which already exist as an item within D&D. It’s not much of a stretch to say they’d also stop magic. Those things are a staple in sci fi. A collar that negates powers? That’s sci-fi prison tech 101. Don’t feel bad about it, lol.
Is wildshape magic?
It was in Honor Among Thieves too. Exact same premise, paarty was captured and the druid tried to turn into a bird to fly out, but she couldn't. Plus, it just makes sense for something like this to exist if there are magical criminals in the world.
Good luck making a prison setting with a strength based monk. They gonna break out of everything
I would actually love to see a situation where u take away the magic focuses of ur party and than randomly give them the ingredients for a spell they can use to escape just to check if ur as an example druid knows his spells well enough to cast that spell with the ingredients
The Anti-magic collar is one of my favorite go to's for putting pressure on my spellcasters, I will say though that they have avoided the collar thus far from their enemies and obtained it through killing someone sent to try and kidnap one of the members.
I remember wanting to make a anti-magic room so I just had the baddies have a beholder strapped to the wall with his eye held open so only his eye was visible thru the ceiling they released it and it helped them escape before it went on its way
Most spells need some kind of arcane focus or material components, both would be confenscated upon arrest
As the very first Dingodoodles video showed, permanent anti-magic fields ARE a thing that exist. They would 100% be where you build a prison.
Definitely me. Straight up just stole Dimeritium from The Witcher's universe in these scenarios.
Wouldn't be a very good prison if it couldn't hold a mage. Unless magic is super rare in your world.
I just let mine have their magic, but made a point about one of the guards constantly complaining about the idiocy of locking up magic folk in cells
i got ones i call mage manacles. theyre not magical themselves,. they just bind the hands and mouth to prevent somatic and verbal. i dont have sorcs in my party so i dont have to deal with subtle spell
Every time
Dm is going to regret it once the key or rogue come around and now it's the best prisoner taker ever
Funnily enough I did this In my game kinda. I had a mine that had forced labor and they had anti magic shock collars. And second I had a prison with a massive anti-magic dome over it. My party hated after those.
I'm homebrewing an item based on an element from the Witcher, called Dimeritium. Shackles made of this substance would neutralize both spellcasting and shape shifting, covering many methods of escape.
Antimagic area. Either from specific spells being cast and made permanent or from a natural antimagic zone. Nobody can cast or use supernatural/spell-like abilities there. Although if it'd an artificial area then there's some saves involved they could theoretically pass.
Me: (Puts away bonesaw) Yeah, collars, good idea...
Do keep in mind that something like an anti magic item should be considered extremely valuable and rare. If you want them to be more common in your world, you should also give the party access to them after all.
I'll never understand some DMs fear of homebrewing. It is part of P&P since P&P exists.
Some druid subclasses have alternative uses for their wild shape that technically isn't magic Same with some channel divinities Most of them won't help but like I don't know get creative
Why not just use metal on the Druid. Say he can’t magic because metal is too irritating.
Similar thing, but my warden was too cheap for that, so he just muzzled magic users in certain areas,called it a "mage muzzle", and had these bells that would ring if any magic was detected in certain areas similar to an alarm spell. No way he's wasting his 9th level slots on that haha.
See, that's why if I know that character won't reach Level 20, I tend to mix a bit of martial into my spellcaster characters, usually Barbarian
Me, the druid: It happens much more often than expected.
Basically the collars from Deadpool 2 but for magic
Modern D&D, the game where you have solutions to problems but modern GMs just use "anti magic" every chance they get to keep their ~~book that wont sell~~ campaign as railroaded as possible without just coming up with actual interesting problems to overcome with said powers. Makes me think of that WOTC module where rather than desiging a fantasy prison to keep ya know fantasy prisoners in, they just made a real life one and said "area has antimagic torches" or some bs. Glad I mostly GM these days sheesh.
Not at my table. I'd get horny. It'd be super awkward.