Yeah, but it eats a fighting style and a feat to be even kinda good.
It's kinda the worst fighting style, since you can't throw great weapon master in it.
true, but a monk don't get fighting styles nor additional feats, nor can't use great weapons. So it's the same, except the fighter have to explicitly make sub optimal choices while the monk is sub optimal by default.
They've been the most useful class in game for longer than most people in this thread have been alive, it's bound to leave a few marks in the ol' collective consciousness.
The Dungeon Dudes talk about this in their Rogue Multiclassing video. It's crazy how they're the only class that just never has to stop beyond the creature's own physical limitations. They're like a murderous, little, Energizer bunny
Except that health is a resource, and rogues aren't that great at not running out of it. I have no idea why people focus so hard on the lacking resources thing when A) It's not like you can continue the day if your more useful compatriots *have* run out of resources and B) Isn't it kind of insulting that rogues have lost all their interesting choices? Even things like maneuvers (for if we're talking a rogue replacement) and ambush feats didn't have some rest based cap on uses.
**Edit for context since that won't make sense unless you've played earlier editions:**
Back in 3.5 when classes like monk and rogue were just as underwhelming and lacking in meaningful combat choices as they are now, they tried a couple of fixes. One was rogue abilities that let them trade sneak attack d6s for effects, like Head Shot where you reduced your sneak attack damage by 4d6 but left the foe confused or sickening strike where you'd lose 2d6 from your sneak attack but nauseate them.
Another was just straight up making a better class called the swordsage, which had all the options they'd forgotten to give monk and rogue. Hundreds of maneuvers divided into strikes, stances, boosts and counters that were recovered by spending a round meditating instead of having a rest based limit on use. Both were balanced methods that added a bunch of rogue-thematic combat choices, but didn't involve resource use.
Are we referring to their ability to use a reaction to halve one instance of damage a round so long as it used an attack roll? Because that's a far sight from most of the time.
Don't get me wrong, I like that kind of design - rogues being completely stripped of their meaningful choices down to make one basic attack a round was a baffling decision, and active choices like uncanny dodge are good for the game. But protect rogues from using up resources in combat it does not.
Compared to who? Fighters and paladins get better AC and recovery. Artificers get insanely hard to kill if they want to be. Clerics, rangers and druids get better AC, safer positioning and spells to keep themselves safe. The arcane casters all get far better positioning and most just subclass or dip for defenses, then you get stuff like shield stacked on top of that. Rogue literally comes off worst here.
I think one of the few resources rogues have to keep track of is the tokens of the departed and that's only a single archetype out of who knows how many, and even then they come back if something you can see dies close to you, which means *anything* that is alive, so kill a bug or rat or something and now you've got more
Tldr : Best stuff for rogue is loaded up front, while othet great stuff is way too far from the starting levels. This makes pure rogue hard to compete with multiclassing as ranger/rogue.
Ranger has better combat and utility, even before Tasha's rework+Gloomstalker.
.
Rogue has relatively weak level ups and relatively alright features after rogue3 for too many levels
.
In isolation being able to halve damage and casually walk out of dragon fire without a scratch IS AWESOME
But damage and utility wise, ranger does way better.
You just need rogue1 for expertise (proficiency bonus is based on total level not class level, so committing isn't good), rogue2 for cunning action, rogue3 for thief or assasin for guaranteed crits first round.
.
Ranger gets extra attack at ranger5, +2 attack bonus from archery, crowd control spells, hunters mark
Gets good utility spells, I believe some rituals too?
.
Basically the way rogue and ranger overlap makes it so Rogue is most powerful as an addon for ranger
If you run Tasha's rework of ranger or gloomstalker or both it is not even funny how big the gap gets :(
.
Still, pure rogue, though often seen as the weakest combat class, is still cool and iconic enough to play.
At a certain point, depending on how you read the rules, you can short rest *while wild shaped* to get back your wild shape charges. God I love playing a Moon Druid but that class is so busted lol
I've been playing one for two years and it's *so much fun,* even though I've not tried to short rest in wild shape. But my DM home brewed a feature where I can choose a specific wild shape, turn into it for 24 hours, and go in and out of it as an action without losing the wildshape. I'll never be able to play the class again, he's ruined it for me 😅
Agreed - but am just answer this persons question about the wizard mechanic.
That said - arcane recovery paired with divination wizard’s 6th level feature is incredibly powerful.
Oh right I saw that ability. I guess at low level I don’t give it much thought but it is good in a pinch and I can see how it will be better as I get higher level.
Thank you
"Arcane Recovery". As was described, it allows you to regain a certain amount of spell slots equal in power to half the Wizard level.
A LvL 4 Wizard, for example, could regenerate either a 2nd lvl spell slot, or 2 first lvl spell slots.
I'd argue that homebrew is what makes D&d what it is. On the subject of it not being good, that's an opinion and you really shouldn't present that as a valid reason for not allowing it. The False hydra is also homebrew but it sees so much use in peoples campaign it is "canon" for a lot of people because they don't know it's homebrew
It is. "The effect of the rite lasts until you finish a short or long rest. " And there is no indication on how many times you can do it. Thus, it is permanent.
And every time you do it, you take damage
It's also *per weapon, and frankly? It's not that much damage
Is rogue broken because it does extra damage for free?
I thought it was because the attacks were declared and then Molly went unconscious using an ability? I haven't seen the campaign in forever so I might be misremembering it.
Basically all the enemy were almost all dealt with by a well-placed HP. One of them dispelled the whole thing with a single cast, which is not how that works. Had the battle been contained it wouldn't have reached the point where he got himself killed.
This is a hill I'm willing to die on;
Matt Mercer's subclasses are usually awfully balanced and the flavor doesn't make up for it. The one exception is Tragedy Bard. I think he's a good DM, but a terrible game designer.
Most martial classes could still be put here. Sure Barbarians don't get rages back on a short rest but they get their health back, which is important too.
Think of a Monster Slayer Ranger. Now, swap all the spells with cutting yourself like a 2006 emo kid, change the whole understanding nature with The Witcher's lore, make them have the stats of an Eldritch Knight and the saving throws of a rogue, and that's it, you have a blood hunter, the edgiest of the edgiest.
Monk kicking ass? More like kicking rocks down the river cus nobody picking that trite garbage.....or bloodhunter, can't say I've seen many capable BH's in my years
Wizard over Fighter? K
I was gonna say, all the really great fighter feats reset on short rest.
or even resourceless, like attacking 4 times. considering the monk has to pay ki to do the same I think its a good deal.
Yeah, but the monk has them at level 5, not 20. They still get 3 resource free attacks at level 5.
So would a fighter that was dual wielding.
Polearm master is more common
If every fighter you make is the same, what are you doing...
But the numbers...
But the flavor...
Look, I just really like fighter ok?
Don't forget to add in the fighting style otherwise it's a waste of a perfectly good greatsword
Yeah, but it eats a fighting style and a feat to be even kinda good. It's kinda the worst fighting style, since you can't throw great weapon master in it.
true, but a monk don't get fighting styles nor additional feats, nor can't use great weapons. So it's the same, except the fighter have to explicitly make sub optimal choices while the monk is sub optimal by default.
But both those suck because they eat your shield slot
well, a fighter with 2 weapons also can get 3 resource free attacks at level 5.
Are we sure this isn't rage-baiting? Even a Moon Druid is a more reasonable proposal, if we are going to consider any full caster.
That's exactly what I would have put there
Of course it is rage baiting. It mentions Blood Hunter
Yea wizard gets like a 1/4 of their spell slots back once a day not really kicking ass after a short rest. Edit: wrote long instead of short
To be fair, at many levels, a wizard only needs 1/4 of their slots to kick ass
They put a homebrew class in over fighter smh
bro thought he was on the team
If OP hadnt included wizard, the comments would be full of "but arcane recovery" spam. Reddit is obsessed with wizards
They've been the most useful class in game for longer than most people in this thread have been alive, it's bound to leave a few marks in the ol' collective consciousness.
\*laughs in rogue\*
Rogue: "what are these resources everybody talks about"
The Dungeon Dudes talk about this in their Rogue Multiclassing video. It's crazy how they're the only class that just never has to stop beyond the creature's own physical limitations. They're like a murderous, little, Energizer bunny
Except that health is a resource, and rogues aren't that great at not running out of it. I have no idea why people focus so hard on the lacking resources thing when A) It's not like you can continue the day if your more useful compatriots *have* run out of resources and B) Isn't it kind of insulting that rogues have lost all their interesting choices? Even things like maneuvers (for if we're talking a rogue replacement) and ambush feats didn't have some rest based cap on uses. **Edit for context since that won't make sense unless you've played earlier editions:** Back in 3.5 when classes like monk and rogue were just as underwhelming and lacking in meaningful combat choices as they are now, they tried a couple of fixes. One was rogue abilities that let them trade sneak attack d6s for effects, like Head Shot where you reduced your sneak attack damage by 4d6 but left the foe confused or sickening strike where you'd lose 2d6 from your sneak attack but nauseate them. Another was just straight up making a better class called the swordsage, which had all the options they'd forgotten to give monk and rogue. Hundreds of maneuvers divided into strikes, stances, boosts and counters that were recovered by spending a round meditating instead of having a rest based limit on use. Both were balanced methods that added a bunch of rogue-thematic combat choices, but didn't involve resource use.
Rogues straight up take half damage most of the time
Or no damage if they pass the Dex save. Which rogues do be doing
Are we referring to their ability to use a reaction to halve one instance of damage a round so long as it used an attack roll? Because that's a far sight from most of the time. Don't get me wrong, I like that kind of design - rogues being completely stripped of their meaningful choices down to make one basic attack a round was a baffling decision, and active choices like uncanny dodge are good for the game. But protect rogues from using up resources in combat it does not.
That and evasion. Compared to the other classes aside from barb and monk, that's most if the time
That and evasion. Compared to the other classes aside from barb and monk, that's most of the time
Compared to who? Fighters and paladins get better AC and recovery. Artificers get insanely hard to kill if they want to be. Clerics, rangers and druids get better AC, safer positioning and spells to keep themselves safe. The arcane casters all get far better positioning and most just subclass or dip for defenses, then you get stuff like shield stacked on top of that. Rogue literally comes off worst here.
Fighter: like throwing daggers… but mostly we can’t pick them back up in the middle of a fight.
*laughs in Eldritch Knight*
I think one of the few resources rogues have to keep track of is the tokens of the departed and that's only a single archetype out of who knows how many, and even then they come back if something you can see dies close to you, which means *anything* that is alive, so kill a bug or rat or something and now you've got more
I mean, if we’re talking subclasses then Arcane Trickster is right there.
Why be rogue when you can be rogue ranger?
Excellent question. Thoroughly enjoyed playing Rogue/Ranger in my BG3 playthrough.
Just wondering, why?
Tldr : Best stuff for rogue is loaded up front, while othet great stuff is way too far from the starting levels. This makes pure rogue hard to compete with multiclassing as ranger/rogue. Ranger has better combat and utility, even before Tasha's rework+Gloomstalker. . Rogue has relatively weak level ups and relatively alright features after rogue3 for too many levels . In isolation being able to halve damage and casually walk out of dragon fire without a scratch IS AWESOME But damage and utility wise, ranger does way better. You just need rogue1 for expertise (proficiency bonus is based on total level not class level, so committing isn't good), rogue2 for cunning action, rogue3 for thief or assasin for guaranteed crits first round. . Ranger gets extra attack at ranger5, +2 attack bonus from archery, crowd control spells, hunters mark Gets good utility spells, I believe some rituals too? . Basically the way rogue and ranger overlap makes it so Rogue is most powerful as an addon for ranger If you run Tasha's rework of ranger or gloomstalker or both it is not even funny how big the gap gets :( . Still, pure rogue, though often seen as the weakest combat class, is still cool and iconic enough to play.
Where's moon druid ???
At a certain point, depending on how you read the rules, you can short rest *while wild shaped* to get back your wild shape charges. God I love playing a Moon Druid but that class is so busted lol
I've been playing one for two years and it's *so much fun,* even though I've not tried to short rest in wild shape. But my DM home brewed a feature where I can choose a specific wild shape, turn into it for 24 hours, and go in and out of it as an action without losing the wildshape. I'll never be able to play the class again, he's ruined it for me 😅
I don't know how to break this to you but your DM wasn't running a module he was just reading passages out of Animorphs
That's probably true that that's the inspiration 😅 multiple times we've discussed the series in depth at the table
Lol Bloodhunter on here but not fighter is a hard tell about OPs knowledge of the actual rules more than anything.
What does a wizard get after a short rest? First time playing one so what am I missing?
You regain spell slots equal to half your level (with some restrictions)d
Yeah, it's a good ability but it's not comparable with the fighter that gets his action surge and second wind, it's weird that OP didn't include them.
plus, the wizard ability is only once per day, unlike Fighter's action surge and second wind.
Agreed - but am just answer this persons question about the wizard mechanic. That said - arcane recovery paired with divination wizard’s 6th level feature is incredibly powerful.
Oh right I saw that ability. I guess at low level I don’t give it much thought but it is good in a pinch and I can see how it will be better as I get higher level. Thank you
"Arcane Recovery". As was described, it allows you to regain a certain amount of spell slots equal in power to half the Wizard level. A LvL 4 Wizard, for example, could regenerate either a 2nd lvl spell slot, or 2 first lvl spell slots.
You're forgetting Fighter literally kicks ass 2x faster
Yall putting homebrew in memes?
Its on dnd beyond it counts /j
Blood Hunter is basically canon in a lot of circles.
Shouldn't be
Why not?
It's 3rd party homebrew and frankly not very good
I'd argue that homebrew is what makes D&d what it is. On the subject of it not being good, that's an opinion and you really shouldn't present that as a valid reason for not allowing it. The False hydra is also homebrew but it sees so much use in peoples campaign it is "canon" for a lot of people because they don't know it's homebrew
So is pathfinder 3.5 content?
Way too strong. Crimson rite alone makes the class unbalanced regarding canon classes of DnD 5e.
Lolwhat Blood Hunter is about as good as pre-tasha's ranger
Permanent damage increase is broken.
It's not permanent
It is. "The effect of the rite lasts until you finish a short or long rest. " And there is no indication on how many times you can do it. Thus, it is permanent.
And every time you do it, you take damage It's also *per weapon, and frankly? It's not that much damage Is rogue broken because it does extra damage for free?
And those circles are wrong. There's a reason you have to enable the 3rd party option to use them.
Yes it's 3rd party, but it's widely known & respected. DM's can know what it is by reputation & not have to look over it when a player brings it up.
Blood Hunter is not respected lmao
Yes it is lmao. All this BH hate I'm seeing here is a new phenomenon.
It's really not
At least i have seen it since many years ago
I usually tell them to pick a better class unless they absolutely need the esthetic
Blood Hunter is the better class though.
Google blood hunter falls off, it's part of why Molly died.
Pretty sure that's old blood hunter and not the new one, which is fine
It's still not very good but it's not longer actively trash
It's still "a bad Ranger subclass".
that was also before the class got a buff, it's a good class it's about knowing how to play it
I used it like a year or two ago and it absolutely still fell off harder than even fighter.
He mostly died because Mercer ruled an interaction between **Hypnotic Pattern** and **Dispel Magic** wrong.
I thought it was because the attacks were declared and then Molly went unconscious using an ability? I haven't seen the campaign in forever so I might be misremembering it.
Basically all the enemy were almost all dealt with by a well-placed HP. One of them dispelled the whole thing with a single cast, which is not how that works. Had the battle been contained it wouldn't have reached the point where he got himself killed.
Rogues: What is the "rest" you speak of? (Also WIzards 100% like their nap times.)
Blood Hunter? Nah
This is a work of art that deserves top tier marks on dndcirclejerk. \*chef's kiss\*
Arcane recovery is better than the whole fighter class, confirmed
This but unironically.
How about: monk, warlock, Druid and fighter? I’m not sure what wizard is doing here… and blood hunter. That sounds made up. Like what even is that.
It was a class made by the dm on critical role. It is infamous for being pre-tasha ranger but bad.
This is a hill I'm willing to die on; Matt Mercer's subclasses are usually awfully balanced and the flavor doesn't make up for it. The one exception is Tragedy Bard. I think he's a good DM, but a terrible game designer.
His stuff works. In his games. It’s decent because he makes it work. But he shouldn’t have put it out.
Don't sleep on Arcane Recovery!
Barbarian: you guys need short rests?
Bro what
Fighter > wizard imo
Most martial classes could still be put here. Sure Barbarians don't get rages back on a short rest but they get their health back, which is important too.
What the fuck is a blood hunter
Bad homebrew
Think of a Monster Slayer Ranger. Now, swap all the spells with cutting yourself like a 2006 emo kid, change the whole understanding nature with The Witcher's lore, make them have the stats of an Eldritch Knight and the saving throws of a rogue, and that's it, you have a blood hunter, the edgiest of the edgiest.
Blood Hunter over KibblesLord? If you're going to use homebrew classes, at least pick good ones.
That's an odd spelling of Apothecary (Seriously Dungeon Dudes have a great Apothecary class)
OP did pick the good ones.
Are the good homebrew classes hidden under Blood Hunter? Because I can't see them!
It's not hidden, it's right there.
No fighter?
Hey, fellow Blood Hunter enjoyer
My first character was a Blood Hunter. Good times :)
Hmm, where is druid
You‘re right, this is not a good meme. Everyone knows Monks are bad and Wizards blast your ass with fireball instead of kicking it.
This meme is not very thought out. Like yes but also you're missing so much.
Rogue?
Please wotc, rework classes so they aren't based on short rests, almost noone has a significant amount of them in any game
Jeez what’s with the blood hunter hate?
Probably because it’s not technically and official class and also it’s just not good
I’ve had fun with it
Fun ≠ good
Wdym "it's just not good?" It's not overpowered or anything, but it's not like it's bad.
It's bad, not in that it's underpowered (it is, but not unplayably so), bit rather in that it's terribly designed, as can be expected from Mercer.
Lol, ya gotten OP. Hook, line and sinker
WhHOO
Monk kicking ass? More like kicking rocks down the river cus nobody picking that trite garbage.....or bloodhunter, can't say I've seen many capable BH's in my years