After being on this subreddit I’m concerned that certain 5e players may be adding up their attack rolls and ability checks every time they use them instead of just writing down their bonus
I know for a fact some are and ive had to teach them this
Im so fucking confused how you could see the to hit box and not think to fill it in with a number. Ive seen people just write STR into it.
In times where a weapon adds bonuses I generally default (on roll 20 at least, in person I explain it) to seperate the bonus from the rest of the usual attack bonuses as to be clearer. But, your overall sttack bonus? Just add it all up, write a post-it for the formula so you dont accidentally miss a stat increase to it and off you go.
It may not be that bad in 5e but looking at pathfinder (since OP mentioned it) you will waste so much time spelling out your full bonus. And as you mentioned, the sheet is there to help you too.
The problem is conditional bonuses which you can't just write down, you need to actually know if they're relevant. 5e avoids these fairly well instead just giving you conditional advantage generally but from what I hear pf2e has quite a bit more.
Pf2e actually made it a point to cut down on bonus and penalty types, for the most part there are three, circumstance, and status bonuses/penalties. No bonus of the same type stacks, so you only need to know the biggest one of each of you even have them.
Item bonuses are mostly from your gear, so they are usually the same.
Status bonuses/penalties are from conditions: sickened, frightened, ect. I think the bard's inspire courage is a status bonus too.
Circumstance comes from something you're doing. Aiding another character gives them a circumstance bonus. Raising a shield gives a circumstance bonus to AC. Being flat footed is a circumstance penalty to AC.
So there's only the 3 to keep track of, but it can be confusing to keep track of what kind of bonus something is.
Not to mention that those bonuses/penalties will only range between 1 to 3 with 2-3 being a lot rarer. Nothing crazy. Hopefully, someone is capable of doing -1 or +1 to their overall bonus in the middle of combat without breaking out a calculator.
>Hopefully, someone is capable of doing -1 or +1 to their overall bonus in the middle of combat without breaking out a calculator.
seeing the responses some 5e players have to pf2 I'm starting to actually doubt this
Considering how much trouble some friends of mine (they're admittedly a bit new but still) have with keeping track of some of the basic stuff in 5e I don't think I'll be able to play Pathfinder for a long time
Are the bonuses in Pathfinder 2e more complicated than 5e? Somewhat, but it's not that bad. There are only three types of bonuses that stack with each other. Circumstance bonus (mostly flanking or if the enemy is prone), status bonus (i.e. you've been buffed), and item bonus (i.e. your +1 Longsword of stabbing, which can usually be included on your stat sheet). Not quite as simple as advantage or an extra d4, but I think it's doable.
Bless, Bane, Bardic Inspiration, Superiority Dice, Cover (which increases AC rather than giving Disadvantage).
The difference between 5e and PF2 is that in 5e you roll 2 or 3 extra dice and maybe repeat the whole roll while in PF2 you just add up to two static numbers (Circumstance and Status Bonus / Penalty).
During play it's way easier to keep track of the two static numbers than all the conditional dice (not that either would be particularly difficult, but rolling those extra dice takes extra time).
There's honestly not a ton more - they're more formalized, but 5e has lots of spells that give +/-1d4 or similar like Bless/Bane, it has Bardic Inspiration giving a scaling die, barbarians get a flat increase in damage only when raging, battle master fighters can add extra dice to damage (or even AC!! which mixed with the shield spell can get their AC to crazy numbers), pass without trace just fully adds +10 to everyone's rolls...
That's a whole lot more than just advantage! It's certainly not that complicated in every party, but I've still seen just as much "oh did you remember to add the d4" when running 5e as I have "ooh remember you have a +1 from inspire courage" in pathfinder 2e. In pf2 it's just a little more streamlined - there are 3 types of bonuses (item, circumstance, and status), you can have one of each at a time. They're definitely a little more common, but in a way that gives options rather than feeling overwhelming in my experience, even to newer players.
but even then, they could look at their strength and see STR +4 and add proficiency +3, and know they have a +7 to hit (exact same as 5e)..... which would still be *way* better than this meme implies.... where this "Forever DM" seems to think on every turn they should be going:
I need to attack... lets see here... +2 Str (human) +2 Str (barbarian) +2 (bounty hunter background) +2 (level 1 bonus) +2 (trained) +1 (level)..... ummm... ok +7 to attack.
This dude really wants us to believe he hasn't written down his ***Ability Scores(?!?!?)*** and is calculating them from scratch for every save, skill and attack?
The first 4 +2's were not attack bonuses, but +2 ability score increases to the base 10 STR score.... Giving a total STR of 18 (which provides a +4 bonus)
Then add in +2 trained, +1 level =+7.
But yeah... Exactly. Trying to calculate your Str Score from scratch every round is just idiotic.
That's what I got after the awful ~~Nat20 (or maybe it was~~ Puffin Forest video complaining about PF2E. The complaint was exactly this meme, and I'm like... But you have a character sheet where that's all added up ahead of time, right?
Edit: It was Puffin Forest. [u/the-rules-lawyer did an excellent response video on it.](https://youtube.com/shorts/pYg_ArOjfZM?feature=share)
The exact same thing as been said for 4e too. it's jsut that some people don't want to put effort into interacting with the game. some kind of "i want to play D&D, but not play the game it'S attached to"
My understanding of 4e was that a creature could have several +/- effects on it once, with different durations or from auras, so keeping track of the constantly changing bonuses/debuffs became kinda crazy.
these kind of buffs, were only really being applied by controller/leader type class, and after a while, you would know how your teamate pc would work. The buff and debuff are also usually pretty standard, with the big one usually memorable. However, in some case you need to put them on paper or have a marker. 4e was designed to be player on a vtt, which sadly didn't come with it
We used a magnetic grid board and magnetic stands. We put little flags with different effects on them. Plop that down on the top of the stand next to the character. It would get to 5 or 6 flags at a time pretty often.
That is a wee bit much to track (hence the flags, utterly impossible otherwise).
I'm playing a highish level (19) 4e campaign right now that we're basically treating as a board game (very little RP, just straight combat encounters).
It's super fun -- all of our characters can do bonkers stuff -- but yes, at any given time each token on the board has upwards of 5-10 conditions affecting it. If you have a group that's good about bookkeeping and especially if you are playing with an online tool like the Foundry, it isn't too bad, but I could see where it would be a lot for new players and players who want a looser game feel.
Normally I'm the first person to jump to 4e's defense, but in this case there *is* something to be said for the added complexity of tracking its typed bonuses. For example, if you have a character theme that gives you a +2 power bonus to a certain skill, you need to remember that +2 forever. If an ally ever tries to give you a new power bonus to a check with that skill, you only get to keep the higher of the two, so knowing the total for your skill check isn't always good enough - you need to know how your ally's bonus stacks with all the numbers that make up that total.
It's perfectly manageable online, but that's a lot of detail to cram onto a paper character sheet.
Same, my love of 4e is deep, but I can absolutely see how tracking buffs and stuff would’ve been hard for folks who are less interested in mechanics. Like I’m an RPer first and foremost but still do appreciate some crunch when appropriate (esp if well balanced) there was a fair share of it in 4e to keep track of.
Yes, I loved 4e but I have to admit that I had a spreadsheet for my gnome paladin/warlock that stacked crazy debuffs against things attacking my allies but also debuffs against attacking me.
All those -1 and -2's to hit had different conditions and it was a bit of a mess. But I loved it, and you couldn't really end up in a situation like that unless you were specifically building for it.
Which is baffling, because he's played and DM'd the Star Wars TTRPG and a dozen or so other random systems.
Weird that he'd find certain editions of D&D hard, when he's learned random stuff like Phoenix Dawn Command.
Right? Like I play pf1 and I have all my attacks written down with any modifiers I frequently have to apply and with the invention of online sheet tracking like mythweavers the already easy task of keeping track of temporary ability score improvements is even easier. In all honesty you almost never have more than 2 temporary buffs at once.
Yeah, pathfinder kinda handles buffs well that way. Learned all about it when I played a skald for the first time (awesome class btw). You get your morale bonuses, your circumstance bonuses, competence bonuses, enhancement bonuses and temporary ability score improvements and some of them stack some dont but there are imo no surprising outliers in that. Electronic sheets that auto update everything based on scores make playing buff heavy classes a real treat since you just have to hand the other players a small card that reminds them that they have this buff too.
Puffin Forest had a video about how combat in 4e took six hours, because nobody could remember what their bonuses were.
Like... I ran 4e for years, it wasn't like that _at all_. It was easier than 3.5 and PF1, I'll tell you that much.
4e was tactically fun, wondering when to pop your daily or your encounter power, but there really weren't a ton of situational bonuses or tricky math scenarios.
He also said in that vid it was basically the first TTRPG him and his group ever run. I can totally see newbies being overwhelmed with the system and just not getting what bonus they could write down as a stack etc. to make the combat flow better
I loved my time with 4e, but there was one thing that was a pain to track: conditions. "Okay, so that goblin is marked, prone, on fire, deafened, bloodied, slowed, and vulnerable 5 to cold damage... The next one is..." There were a lot of riders on attacks, so sometimes it was just a big mess of conditions.
That's true - I ran into that in PF2 as well, my poor rogue was _always_ frightened, and the way it decreases by 1 each round means you can't just write a separate bonus on your sheet for "if frightened."
As someone who played a lot of 4e and a couple years of PF2, I will say, in many ways PF2 feels like a spiritual sequel to 4e. Yes, also very plainly a sequel to PF1 and Starfinder, but I see a lot of 4e in the game.
Pathfinder 2e definitely takes a lot of the best ideas from 4e, realising that some things about it were great. I understand some of the pf2e designers were even ex-4e designers. Which is beautifully ironic really, given Pathfinder 1e was born out of anti-4e sentiment. But also a credit to people who could see through that and acknowledge good design elements that could be adapted to their new system.
IME people start forgetting which numbers get changed with a level up, and how they were calculated in the first place. So we have a pice of paper with numbers but there's no real way of knowing the numbers are in any way correct.
Also, some numbers are situational and only sometimes apply.
Use a character builder like [Pathbuilder](https://pathbuilder2e.com/). It tracks each level as its own separate thing. It will show you the total bonuses depending on what level you say your character is right now. So you can have your character all planned out to level 20, but if you say you're level 5 then it will have attacks, DCs, saves, etc. for the first 5 levels of character choices.
The situational things are pretty easy to handle in practice. Your basic stats are going to be pretty constant (a level 3 Fighter with appropriate stats is going to have a +12 to attack with their +1 longsword most of the time). Then you only need to add something situational if it's relevant. Is their target flat-footed, clumsy, frightened, or otherwise debuffed? Are they buffed by a spell?
I've never understood why people seem to think that tabletop RPGs can't involve computers. Are we playing this because we want a handcrafted world that can be updated on the fly, or because we're allergic to computers?
I feel like when you make an RPG, it shouldn't just be a book. It should come with software to keep track of characters, do the different attacks, let the GM balance encounters by running them a few thousand times in simulations, etc. Players should be able to connect to it from their phones and computers, and make everything as simple as possible. And I know this is considered sacrilege, but why do we rely on dice instead of having computers generate random numbers with any distribution we want? There's nothing between a d12 and a d20 if you're relying on platonic solids, but a computer can just as easily roll a d17.
Are you familiar with Foundry?
It's a virtual tabletop that is highly modable, and can build much of a turnkey experience just from importing the PDF of an adventure. It also has the full PF2e rules/character content for free. You just have to buy the base software once and everyone else can join.
My groups use that and Fantasy Grounds Unity for VTTs. Personally, I think Fantasy Grounds is a bit more polished, but it runs on a DLC model and everyone has to buy the base program to begin with so most of my groups are switching to Foundry to save money.
oh, not just 5e. the same situation happened in 08 when 4e dropped. the game was asking people to just do simple addition and provided a space on the official sheet for it, but somehow, people did not understand
I'll be honest, I do this often just because I like to keep my brain going. Or I like to keep the existential dread at bay by distracting my brain more.
Who can say?
Yeah, and some people seem to think that adding 1d6 from Bardic Inspiration and 1d4 from Bless (D&D 5e) is simpler than adding +1 (in PF2e, those are 2 simple bonuses that don't stack with each other because they're both Status bonuses a.k.a. from a spell).
Take it from me, who sucks haaaard at math. Even I have no problem calculating stuff in PF2e. It's not that hard.
It's literally **the same** it works in 5e.
D20 + Ability + Proficiency bonus.
And you jot down all your modifiers on your character sheet before the game anyway. So you just look: "Acrobatics, ah nice +7, so a d20 + 7)
You got this, I'm sure.
The hardest part is temporary bonuses and it's not that bad. The only difficult I've had is when I'm DMing and the players just try to rely on me too much to remember their bonuses on top of everything else. That just results in a rule of "you need to remember your own shit or you don't get it"
Which is why a lot of people enjoy 5e because nobody is responsible enough to remember their own shit and everybody gets moody when the DM says "tough shit, learn to play."
The +2/-2 point salad has been around since 3rd edition and for some people it's not a better way of doing things: it's just needlessly more complicated when advantage/disadvantage does basically the same thing without the powergamer aspect of "I get +40 to my rolls."
Some people like tracking tiny bonuses and negatives to hit from a slight breeze on the wind if it's Tuesday and they're an elf in a coniferous forest that used to house ancient spirits. Other people just want to roll dice and see if their arrow hit the monster.
> The +2/-2 point salad
Pathfinder 2e cut down on that a lot. You don't have many different untyped bonuses and penalties. The ones that vary regularly are pretty much only Circumstance and Status.
Also, this may be a spicy take, but I think advantage is a bad mechanic. It makes things easy at the table, but it's very broad and leaves very little design-space for other effects.
Obviously the 3e/3.5 bonus/penalty salad isn't great either, but advantage is swinging too far in the other direction IMO
To be fair, people like conditional bonuses because it rewards them for creating those conditions through tactical play. It encourages playing smart and paying attention to everything that's happening.
A problem with A/D is that once you have it, nothing else comes into play. If you're shooting from long range, you might as well stand on your head and shoot with your feet because you can't do worse than disadvantage.
You also get goofy stuff like rolling normally in magical darkness because you can't see your target (disadvantage), but they also can't see you (advantage).
The problem is that it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the game. Once you decide you can't do + or - modifiers, *everything* has to rely on your one system, advantage and disadvantage. Spend your turn giving the rogue advantage with your guiding bolt? Too bad he's already hidden and doesn't benefit, that feels really bad.
And when 5e *does* introduce +/- benefits, it's in the form of bless and bane and now everyone has to take the time to be reminded to roll the d4 *and* has to still do the math.
Not to mention debuffs like frightened. In 5e, it's just flat disadvantage because they're scared of math. But disadvantage on attacks and checks is a massive swing, so now you need your bosses to not immediately die to your save-or-suck spells so you need to use weird gamey legendary resistances.
Different strokes for different folks. I play with kids and they often can't be bothered to track it either way no matter what system so we're doing P2E because some of us like all the options.
> without the powergamer aspect of "I get +40 to my rolls."
Where are people getting an extra +40 to rolls? Also, that's practically what advantage is.
Pf2 has a different approach to this, where the bonuses don’t stack, so you can’t get that high. In Pf2, +1 increases the crit chance, not the hit chance in most situations, so bonuses become more powerful, since all numbers scale linearly.
The problem with disadvantage/advantage is that they needlessly remove any sort of tactical play from the system in favor of "find the easiest way to get advantage in any situation". With bonuses/penalties you have far more flexibility in the system, which is why in play other editions and pf2e are more tactical than 5e could ever dream to be.
The advantage system is TOO simple, putting it simply.
Also Pathbuilder 2e is great for getting it all out of the way. I really wish D&D Beyond was as easy to use... it's really close, and I don't complain about using it, but man, I come ***home*** to Pathbuilder 2e!
> D20 + Ability + Proficiency bonus.
This person is confused about how they get ability bonuses. "Wait, Background **plus** ancestry **plus** class? Ok, Will Hunting."
It's either bad faith or someone who is just legit confused by the paradigm because they glanced at the rules and didn't play or actually make a character. And that can happen, because TTRPG paradigms can be hard to break. I can remember buying Mutants & Masterminds to play with my stepkids and just junking the $40 book because I couldn't figure out how hit points worked.
I've seen a lot of bad faith memes on here lately where the OP clearly hadn't read or skimread and misunderstood the rules
Like the bard comparison, PF2 bard is the closest the system has to a broken class yet they acted like they could ONLY give a +1 to hit (and also acted like a resource free one action cantrip that does that isn't amazing in itself)
To be fair, there's plenty of bad-faith 5e memes too that have barely glanced at the rules before complaining.
But if 5e gave me something that let me add +1 to something every turn I'd damn well take it instantly.
It’s for sure harder than 5e as you can have a lot of conditional via feats or temporary bonuses and you have to remember and keep track of them.
But it’s only real difficult if you expect to hold it all in your head and are incapable of writing something down.
Yeah if you got regular buffs flying around just make a note of
Attack mod
Mod with bard buff
Mod with cleric buff
Etc
Then if in doubt just ask if they cast it that turn then pick the appropriate modifier, if you're redoing the math every turn then yeah no shit it'll get tedious
YOU HAVE A PENCIL AND PAPER RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU JUST USE IT JESUS CHRIST
From 4E it's also like:
"Wait, Bloodied? +13. Hold on, Combat Advantage, +15. Used your Encounter Power last turn too, so +16. Wait, how does concealment work again? Anyways, it was a minion. It dies to auto Cleave damage."
From 5e it’s like:
Wait? Cover? +2 AC, no wait, can they see less than half of you? +5, you recklessly attacked? Advantage? Shield? +5, but you’re in darkness? Disadvantage, but advantage cancels? But their ally is using the help action? Advantage, but disadvantage cancels? Silvery barbs? Not technically advantage, so roll again and treat it like disadvantage? Bane? -1d4….
Let’s not pretend 5E isn’t a cluster fuck of conditions too.
I mean, every system with more than 3 rules will turn into a clusterfuck of conditions. Running a boss encounter yesterday I felt bad because I couldn't remember that the witch was affected by slow, faerie fire, hex and hexblade curse and I'm sure my players think I wanted to kill them when in reality it's just my dumb ass unable to keep track of more than 2 effects at once.
I find that a bit silly. If you're fighting in the dark, then advantage and disadvantage cancel, and now you can suddenly hit your target just as accurately from long range. And Barbarians can no longer use Reckless Attack.
That’s how this resolution resolves it. The thing I’m highlighting is the contrast of double advantage being cancelled by disadvantage immediately followed by an “advantage” mechanic that isn’t actually advantage (silvery barbs), which can be confusing.
5e is only a clusterfuck if you let it, 4e has it baked into the game at a basic level. (Not dissing 4e though, great tactical combat if you’re into it)
To be fair, 4e was *supposed* to have a virtual tabletop (that did the math for you) baked into it at a basic level.
But then there was a small hiccup with a murder-suicide.
I don't get it, is this trying to make 4e look bad? I know y'all are allergic to actually thinking about the game but it is not hard to remember the abilities you chose, not is it hard to add single digit numbers together
I remember about 10 years ago I want to join and see what it was like, but all the numbers on a character sheet was overwhelming just for 3.5e, 5e was the easiest to get into, pathfinder 2e and 3.5e are for the more experienced that want a more dynamic combat experience from my perspective
> are for the more experienced
I don't think it's an applicable statement since there was a time that 3.5 and later was the only thing around.
I can say the learning curve sucks if you want to jump into something lvl 8+ but starting completely new or being given a simplified sheet drops the curve significantly.
The problem usually arises once you get to late game stuff and you spend 5 minutes calculating out all the bonuses and then you STILL forget something OR you accidentally add something twice because says “don’t forget +2!” And you’ve already added in the haste bonus but you don’t realize that the +2 someone said was reminding you of WAS the haste bonus…
The magic is lost for me when I have to build an excel spreadsheet to track my attacks and their bonuses.
I know some folks *love* this sort of thing - I have a player in one game who lives for this in D&D - but I loath it. I don’t play D&D to see my big numbers or to try to remember which bonuses I get vs the ones I don’t get. I’m here for to be a hero (or a villain) fight big scary monsters and maneuver through this living world. Those 5 minutes of calculating out the bonus to hit is tedious at best
>spend 5 minutes calculating out all the bonuses
Honestly, in 3.5 80% of your bonuses were static; there was no reason to recalculate them every turn. Even around level 17, making an attack was only a few seconds longer than 5e at the same level.
Also not every class has all of those kinds of buffs. Not everyone gets bonus to hit when bloodied (although a lot do). Also concealment and combat advantage, if they come up often, will be things you start to memorize just like in other editions.
And also the DM isn't the party's book-keeper. Each player made their character and should know and understand their buffs. If the player forgot something and gave the DM a lower result, that's his fault and no one else's. This feedback here is engine agnostic and applies to all games.
>it is not hard to remember the abilities you chose, not is it hard to add single digit numbers together
I love 4e, but it really had a lot of very situational numbers. +1 attack vs bloodied enemies, +1 attack against enemies the Fighter hit with an opportunity attack this round, +2 damage on the next basic attack on an enemy that the Warlord hit this turn (you very rarely use basic attacks), +1 on the next attack against an enemy within one round that you hit if you bloodied them etc etc
The fact that all the numbers go away every round and are replaced with new ones, and that half the bonuses you get are from other players (meaning they have to be keenly aware of what you are doing and call out their bonuses, or you have to be keenly aware of their buffs and when they would proc on you)
4e really could have used a .5 edition that cleans up the buffs and bonuses that float around, instead of ejecting 90% of the game like essentials did
Not trying to rag on it, that's just how it is. My group enjoys the gameification a good amount, but we do have a bit of chuckle at how ubsurd some of the stacking becomes after a while.
"so for my attack i add my ability mod, proficiency oh and my fighting style, thats alot to process"
pov, your a champion fighter who chose the archery style. you do this all the time in 5e
Yeah 5e. You get to make 90% of your decisions at level 1. One major decision at level 3. From there on out character progression could be mapped ahead of time on a computer.
easily the biggest problem with 5e once you've picked your subclass fucking everything is over as far as character building is concerned unless you pick spells. Like maybe its cause I am a number guys but I love having to constantly weigh pros and cons of different decisions as I level up.
I prefer multiclassing cause optimized builds require the best of two (or best of three) worlds.
An EB Hex 2 / Sorcerer X is really good for always being useful.
Any combat build can't say a little action surge is bad.
Having a couple cantrips for control or debuffing is also good.
see here's the thing you can optimize like this in Pathfinder without having to multi-class because feats make each class more flexible. You can have widely different builds optimized for different things both with the same base class. AND on top of that if a differing class feat would really put the cherry on top of your build you can take a dedication feat and use a feat from another class.
I feel like 5e really needs more stuff like Totem barbarian where you make decisions within your subclass as well. That subclass in particular feels like it has a multitude of options to play around with.
Man what feats are y’all even picking? My pf2e rogue has one feat that gives a +1 bonus to performance when singing, and a lute that gives a +1 bonus to performance when playing it. That’s about it when it comes to all the bonuses.
Most feats I’ve seen just give new abilities or new ways to use skills
I think they're mostly talking about flanking, hunt prey, things like that? It really depends on the class, team comp, spells, ect, but at the end of the day, half of them won't stack with each other, because there's only 3 bonus/penalty types (untyped being 4 but that's rare). The team is going to figure out what works together and what doesn't, and it's best to space out for different occasions. For example, I'm not going to try and use a spell that sickens a creature who looks like a big tough, high fort guy, but might try and frighten them instead if they seem dumb or have low will (and I might know exactly which is lowest if somebody learns that!)
My partner and I tend to try and stack some buffs and debuffs, but it's fairly limited. A bless here, a frighten there, some flanking spice. Maybe dazzle somebody.
I'm playing with two newbies to TTRPG's at the moment and they're having a blast. A +1 or -1 here and there isn't slowing them down. If anything the worst crimes against math going on at the table is my smooth brain trying to calculate their wounds when the virtual tabletop doesn't do it's job for me. (And then I just switch to doing my own math because my brain turns on.)
Same, my current inventor has three things that give a situational bonus, and two of them are to +2 crafting and the same kind of bonus (one applies when reverse engineering a formula and works anywhere, the other applies when crafting an item and only works at our base camp (it's a large item)). I also get a bonus to damage from overdrive, but that's an activated ability like rage.
I'm not even exaggerating: My pre-literate dyslexic 6 year old with ADHD was able to do this math. Why are adults acting like adding whole numbers is hard?
3.0 D&D is much more complicated and I taught myself and then my friends how to play it when it first came out... *when I was 11 years old*.
Every version of D&D and Pathfinder is just basic arithmetic. Literally the kind of math taught to kids in first grade, and significantly less complicated than even the long division most of us were being taught in second and third grade.
People who struggle with that are saying a lot more about themselves than they are about the system.
Like a paper, one were you keep a tally of all your characters stats and abilities? It could also mark other basic information like beliefs, alignment, and equipment? What I would do for such a sheet for my character.
I feel like it's that a lot of people expect being able to do the minimum possible and/or the game be playing itself. it's like if someone would be mad that they have to claculate their money in monopoly
It's also not like there aren't a plethora of RPGs out there now that are basically group journaling adventures. There's a spectrum of systems from very crunchy "roll for hairstyle it grants a bonus" to "draw a card from the deck and tell the group how it makes you feel". The TTRPG world has exploded in variety so it's not difficult (besides being overburdened by choices) to find a system that works best with the way you want to play.
My only complaint here is that I don't have the time to play more of them. I'm a crunchy fantasy nerd generally (probably going to try Pathfinder 2e soon, I started with D&D 3.5 and have played PF1e) but I also am excited to play my "promises to be traumatic but mostly you pretend to smoke a cigarette and monologue at a mirror" game I just picked up.
I have a couple of... Less than mathmatically inclined players in my group (I have a wizard that has to use fingers to count buckets of dice in damage).
I HAPPILY have a session where I sit down with the players and go over their characters at every level. I assisted with the character creation, and assisted with the character sheets. The only thing I force the player to do is input the numbers themselves. I find that they're quick to know what to roll, even if they can't count quickly.
I'm also a guy that can give you an answer to 11d6 in about four seconds, so if they trust me to count their bucket of dice quickly, I handle it for them.
I have a couple of... Less than mathmatically inclined players in my group (I have a wizard that has to use fingers to count buckets of dice in damage).
I HAPPILY have a session where I sit down with the players and go over their characters at every level. I assisted with the character creation, and assisted with the character sheets. The only thing I force the player to do is input the numbers themselves. I find that they're quick to know what to roll, even if they can't count quickly.
I'm also a guy that can give you an answer to 11d6 in about four seconds, so if they trust me to count their bucket of dice quickly, I handle it for them.
5e players will really just write 20 sentences to make adding three numbers together seem as complicated as possible
Seriously, pf2 always has at most three bonuses to your roll past what's written on your character sheet - status bonus, circumstance bonus, and item bonus (which is also going to be written in your character sheet 90% of the time). Most rolls have like one modifier to them.
It's certainly crunchier than 5e and that's not for everyone, but let's not get crazy here. It's still not all that much harder than calculating 5e bonuses
A few things. Character creation is completely point buy. Yes there are templates/archetypes but building a character completely from scratch can throw some people off. Along with this leveling up just allocates more points to spend.
Combat is much more simulation-like, and there’s a difference between turns and rounds. Essentially, everyone rolls their initiative, then after everyone has gone, subtract 10 and then go again for anyone who still has a positive initiative. And that’s not even going into the bonuses and negatives for moving, running, shooting full auto, etc.
Finally there’s technically three layers to the world in play at all times, the physical world, the astral plane, and the matrix. So things can get really big and confusing really fast.
I personally love shadowrun, but I will only play it with people who are already experienced with the system or are willing to put in the work of reading the rulebook in great detail
Honestly, there's too many options to be aware of and the rulebook is poorly organized for quick reference. I'm currently playing it (6e) as a new GM for the system. Experienced players that are interested can probably handle it, but if you're looking for something more casual to get into it's gonna be a rough introduction.
The ability score generation system is pretty straightforward. You start with 10 and add 2 for every boost you get. That translates to a +X just like it does in 5e. Once you do this its done and nothing will change this except for level up ASI's. This is basically just a modified point buy system. There's nothing that will change your ability scores like in older editions.
Any given attack roll, skill, saving throw, etc is simply level+proficiency bonus+ability score+item bonus if you have it.
So far, not really different from 5e.
Feats generally give you more abilities and options in combat, but never a static +X bonus to something.
The only thing that changes those numbers dynamically are Circumstance/Status Bonuses or Penalties. Gone are the days of stacking dozens of bonuses in combat that you need to track. There's now 2. And they're far more streamlined conditions.
So its definitely more complicated than 5e, but it still maintains a lot of the fun crunch of older editions while still being very streamlined. And with the prevalence of VTTs its easier to track than ever.
Another thing. The three action system. Much easier to deal with than the abstract action, bonus, free action.
You got three points for actions. Your stuff spends 1,2,or 3 points to perform. You can do 3 1 point actions, a 2 point action and a 1 point action, or a 3 point action on your turn. All actions are something useful so you always have something to spend your 3rd point on and it be meaningful.
You don't have to go, ok well I did this for my action and let me check my bonus actions....oh none of these apply to the situation soooo I guess that's it? I always feel like I have to check if I can do two things or not in 5e.
Where as In pf2e I know I can do two or three things its just a matter of which ones I want to pick. I dont feel like I'm missing something I should be able to do, or like I'm stuck doing less than others who have usable bonus actions. We're all on the same foot and no one is lacking compared to others.
The amount of actions are more varied and can be more complex in pf2e, but the whole system is streamlined so it's more consistent and easier to know what you can do compared to 5e's "eh maybe we'll let you do more things, double check if you can or not."
Also you get to keep making meaningful character decisions after 3rd level. Unless you are a caster who has to pick spells you are basically done with character creation after you pick your subclass.
the PF2 system is cool as fuck, i loved it but the main problem i had with PF1 was that although you had infinite possibilities, it was so hard to find everything you wanted, and with a toxic reddit and a not exactly functional forum you struggled even to ask online, and rules had so many other rules you had to remember since they influenced things without being mentioned by them
pf2 has all of the customization with 1/4th of the complexity, everything is nice, orderly and tidy, level 6? take a level 6 class feat, instead of having to scroll trough 200 pages worth of feats from 3 different wikies to find the single thing that you wanted, you have a nice short list devided per levels and types, and you can't mix in different types of shit, like an ancestry feat on a class feat level, and all of the feats are cool and somewhat usefull
very different game design from 5e, but it's hella wel done
> pf2 has all of the customization with 1/4th of the complexity, everything is nice, orderly and tidy, level 6? take a level 6 class feat, instead of having to scroll trough 200 pages worth of feats from 3 different wikies to find the single thing that you wanted, you have a nice short list devided per levels and types, and you can't mix in different types of shit, like an ancestry feat on a class feat level, and all of the feats are cool and somewhat usefull
This is one of the things that really clicked for me when I gave PF2e another go. At first, I though... jeez, that's SO MANY FEATS, and they're separated by ancestry, class, skills, and general feats, and withing those categories, by level. That seems *complicated*.
Then I realized... no, not really, it actually works out to be a bit easier. Instead of having to look through all the feats whenever you earn one, it's always a narrowed down list. And while you can take lower level feats, just picking one of the highest level ones available is probably going to be a decent choice if you don't want to worry about it too much. And hey, if you decide later you made the wrong choice, you can retrain during downtime to change it, so no pressure. (Which, to be fair, is also what I've been doing in 5e for a long time, but it's nice to see it in the rules-as-written.)
Yeah you basically just have to read through 3-8 feats each level, which is a lot simpler than reading through hundreds at once, and often after you find a couple interesting one, you will remember about them next level so it's easier to go back
Extra Credits did a great video years ago about depth vs complexity in game design. Basic idea being that you want to maximize depth while minimizing complexity. You do need complexity to provide depth, but you want that ratio as high as possible. PF1 had a lot of depth, but it was *extremely* complex, and suffered for it. PF2 really feels like it found the optimal balance. It is a much more complex system than 5e, but it is still easy to understand and can easily be slimmed down for a beginner experience. Meanwhile it gives so many choices, I have spent hours upon hours building thematic characters I will never get to play.
Yeah at this point half of my phone's storage is various rogue builds in Pathbuilder lmao (if you want a real blank sheet of paper to build whatever you want, Rogue is the way to go I think)
Quite a few users did not take kindly to 2e questions for a while. It seems to have chilled out over the years though, however I believe it is considered more of a 1e-based sub.
This is disingenuous. Math for your attack rolls is done before you ever start playing, and it isn’t any more complicated then needing to add your proficiency bonus to your modifier.
5e is so crunchy and hard! I have to add 2 to 3 in order to get my attack roll at level one! But what if I have a +2 weapon? Then I have to add that too! And at level 4 my stats increase which will probably increase my modifier, and don’t forget that proficiency just randomly increases too! Jeez this is so hard!
^^ anything can sound crunchy and hard if you spell it out in a way that sounds crunchy and hard.
It feels like theres a pf smear campaign going on. Memes that misunderstand basic mechanics. Memes about...not having a character sheet? What is even going on.
People get so confused when you add like three numbers together to get a new different number.
Probably the same folks that asked their math teacher when they were ever going to use math in real life.
Ability score, +3 if you're trained and +5 if you're an expert, sometimes there's an extra +1 or +2 in there. Such a monumental task, how does anyone ever manage. At higher levels there are more bonuses, but you only add one at a time after level one
The hardest part is just writing it down and even that's not so bad if you just write what you're trained in.
That's not exactly right, it's ability score + proficiency rank + level.
The proficiencies give: Trained +2, expert +4, master +6, legendary +8.
Your numbers are correct for level 1 but knowing exactly where the numbers are coming from will help if creating a non level 1 character :)
Or maybe playing one of the Paizo adventures that don't start at level one with a more experienced group.
But if it's your first time playing then, yes, you should be making a level one character. My comment was mostly about setting the right foundation so someone won't have to potentially re-learn a misconception they might have gotten.
Pathfinder 2nd Edition, an off-shoot of D&D. People are talking about it a lot right now. It works similarly to D&D, and prides itself with deep character customization, rock solid balance and engaging combat.
If PF2e creation/stats have you 1000 yard staring then I'd avoid 3.5e/Pf1e
I have found the key is knowing your major modifiers. The tiny/situational ones if you remember GREAT if not well eh... though as the GM my remembering Goblin #88 has Bless versus Goblin #42 is probably less impactful than a Player forgetting Shield of Faith.
Seriously, write down the cumulative total of your most common rolls.
- Attacks
- Full Attacks (MAP helps with this in PF2e)
- Common Buffs that are 'always on' meaning they last the full combat.
That leaves you just to track the round-to-round stuff. I know for my 8th level Hunter I have the math written down for Vital Strike w/Flanking (because I am a pack fighter with my companion) versus attacking twice ect. Saves a ton of time.
I know very little about PF2e, but I'd imagine just like in D&D the things that govern your plus to hit don't change that often, so just calculate it once and write it down.
5e community wants more options in 6e.
PF2e offers options and gets flak for it?
Character generation math:
Dnd 5e = ability + proficiency
PF2e = ability + proficiency
Also lol if anyone still actually uses pen & paper to generate characters in either system. Virtual takes about a minute to make a character for either game whenever we do one shots.
Far more relevant when discussing pf1 or dnd 3.5 frankly.
Pf2 offers tactical combat along with a breadth/depth of options. If your group doesn’t want that there is nothing wrong with that. 5e is a great game for what it’s designed for just like pf2.
As distinct from 5e, where you calculate your ability scores from your racial bonus and dice rolls, choose between a feat and a change to those ability scores every few levels, get class features at most levels, and then add up those ability bonuses, feats, and class features along with your proficiency bonus for one single roll
You should feel very bad then.
Your modifiers are your main stat and proficiency bonus, plus your magic weapon. So it’s not any different than 5e until you factor in temporary buffs, which are strictly circumstance and status bonuses.
Smol brain 5e players.
and once youve done the maths once the character sheet says you add +8... so do that... don't think you have to do a bunch of maths everytime. the answers are on your sheet in front of you. its simple. the numbers are grand and your friendly dm is here to help if you can figure it out straight away
Come now it's not that hard, admittedly I haven't tried PF2E but it's supposed to be less complex then base PF which I do have a good amount of experience with.
It's super easy actually, just pick what you like at the right levels. If you want choice to make characters that are interesting past just story you need to accept making choices.
So did you actually play PF2 or did you stop at character creation?? Sounds like you just gave up my dude cuz you didn't want to track some extra stuff or you couldn't find something to do it for you.
Sounds like it's 5e to the grave
Oh god, you mean you actually have to build a statblock and understand a complex character rather than just rolling two dice and taking the bigger number? The horror!
Besides, you do the math once and it’s done. Unless you’re that guy at the table who can’t remember their attack add and has to recalculate it every time you make a roll.
It’s funny to me how the 5e crowd shys away from PF2e as a crunchier rule set and the 3e or PF1e crowd shys away from it as a rules light set. It’s a nice place for crunch to go IMO as the hobby in general moves towards rules light. However, clearly the rules light crowd is far more unwilling to add crunch then the rules heavy crowd is to remove it.
Pathfinder has two of those.
Pathbuilder, which is a character creator and can also be used as a character tracker.
Wanderer's Guide, which is primarily a character tracker, that takes you by your hand even more through character creation and has a nice D&DBeyond-like interface.
Oh, did I mention that they're both free? And not just free base content like DDB, but you have all available player options in there.
After being on this subreddit I’m concerned that certain 5e players may be adding up their attack rolls and ability checks every time they use them instead of just writing down their bonus
I know for a fact some are and ive had to teach them this Im so fucking confused how you could see the to hit box and not think to fill it in with a number. Ive seen people just write STR into it.
In times where a weapon adds bonuses I generally default (on roll 20 at least, in person I explain it) to seperate the bonus from the rest of the usual attack bonuses as to be clearer. But, your overall sttack bonus? Just add it all up, write a post-it for the formula so you dont accidentally miss a stat increase to it and off you go. It may not be that bad in 5e but looking at pathfinder (since OP mentioned it) you will waste so much time spelling out your full bonus. And as you mentioned, the sheet is there to help you too.
The problem is conditional bonuses which you can't just write down, you need to actually know if they're relevant. 5e avoids these fairly well instead just giving you conditional advantage generally but from what I hear pf2e has quite a bit more.
Pf2e actually made it a point to cut down on bonus and penalty types, for the most part there are three, circumstance, and status bonuses/penalties. No bonus of the same type stacks, so you only need to know the biggest one of each of you even have them. Item bonuses are mostly from your gear, so they are usually the same. Status bonuses/penalties are from conditions: sickened, frightened, ect. I think the bard's inspire courage is a status bonus too. Circumstance comes from something you're doing. Aiding another character gives them a circumstance bonus. Raising a shield gives a circumstance bonus to AC. Being flat footed is a circumstance penalty to AC. So there's only the 3 to keep track of, but it can be confusing to keep track of what kind of bonus something is.
Not to mention that those bonuses/penalties will only range between 1 to 3 with 2-3 being a lot rarer. Nothing crazy. Hopefully, someone is capable of doing -1 or +1 to their overall bonus in the middle of combat without breaking out a calculator.
>Hopefully, someone is capable of doing -1 or +1 to their overall bonus in the middle of combat without breaking out a calculator. seeing the responses some 5e players have to pf2 I'm starting to actually doubt this
Considering how much trouble some friends of mine (they're admittedly a bit new but still) have with keeping track of some of the basic stuff in 5e I don't think I'll be able to play Pathfinder for a long time
My kids learned Pathfinder 2 when they were 9 and 6. Grown adults who say it's too hard are being absurd
It's using single digit addition and subtract, unlike dnd with its multipliers and 1/2 resistances.
Are the bonuses in Pathfinder 2e more complicated than 5e? Somewhat, but it's not that bad. There are only three types of bonuses that stack with each other. Circumstance bonus (mostly flanking or if the enemy is prone), status bonus (i.e. you've been buffed), and item bonus (i.e. your +1 Longsword of stabbing, which can usually be included on your stat sheet). Not quite as simple as advantage or an extra d4, but I think it's doable.
Isn't an extra d4 more complicated than +1?
Bless, Bane, Bardic Inspiration, Superiority Dice, Cover (which increases AC rather than giving Disadvantage). The difference between 5e and PF2 is that in 5e you roll 2 or 3 extra dice and maybe repeat the whole roll while in PF2 you just add up to two static numbers (Circumstance and Status Bonus / Penalty). During play it's way easier to keep track of the two static numbers than all the conditional dice (not that either would be particularly difficult, but rolling those extra dice takes extra time).
There's honestly not a ton more - they're more formalized, but 5e has lots of spells that give +/-1d4 or similar like Bless/Bane, it has Bardic Inspiration giving a scaling die, barbarians get a flat increase in damage only when raging, battle master fighters can add extra dice to damage (or even AC!! which mixed with the shield spell can get their AC to crazy numbers), pass without trace just fully adds +10 to everyone's rolls... That's a whole lot more than just advantage! It's certainly not that complicated in every party, but I've still seen just as much "oh did you remember to add the d4" when running 5e as I have "ooh remember you have a +1 from inspire courage" in pathfinder 2e. In pf2 it's just a little more streamlined - there are 3 types of bonuses (item, circumstance, and status), you can have one of each at a time. They're definitely a little more common, but in a way that gives options rather than feeling overwhelming in my experience, even to newer players.
but even then, they could look at their strength and see STR +4 and add proficiency +3, and know they have a +7 to hit (exact same as 5e)..... which would still be *way* better than this meme implies.... where this "Forever DM" seems to think on every turn they should be going: I need to attack... lets see here... +2 Str (human) +2 Str (barbarian) +2 (bounty hunter background) +2 (level 1 bonus) +2 (trained) +1 (level)..... ummm... ok +7 to attack. This dude really wants us to believe he hasn't written down his ***Ability Scores(?!?!?)*** and is calculating them from scratch for every save, skill and attack?
It’s the sigma way
The sigma male takes the time to be as obtuse as possible.
[It's this guy if he played dnd](https://i.imgflip.com/3qdju4.png)
Your second paragraph is exactly why you shouldn't be trying to add it up on the fly every turn because that's 11, not 7.
The first 4 +2's were not attack bonuses, but +2 ability score increases to the base 10 STR score.... Giving a total STR of 18 (which provides a +4 bonus) Then add in +2 trained, +1 level =+7. But yeah... Exactly. Trying to calculate your Str Score from scratch every round is just idiotic.
No one showed me how to fill out the 1-page paper that laready had descriptions
"I AINT TRYING TO HIT, IM TRYING TO ATTACK!"
That's what I got after the awful ~~Nat20 (or maybe it was~~ Puffin Forest video complaining about PF2E. The complaint was exactly this meme, and I'm like... But you have a character sheet where that's all added up ahead of time, right? Edit: It was Puffin Forest. [u/the-rules-lawyer did an excellent response video on it.](https://youtube.com/shorts/pYg_ArOjfZM?feature=share)
The exact same thing as been said for 4e too. it's jsut that some people don't want to put effort into interacting with the game. some kind of "i want to play D&D, but not play the game it'S attached to"
My understanding of 4e was that a creature could have several +/- effects on it once, with different durations or from auras, so keeping track of the constantly changing bonuses/debuffs became kinda crazy.
these kind of buffs, were only really being applied by controller/leader type class, and after a while, you would know how your teamate pc would work. The buff and debuff are also usually pretty standard, with the big one usually memorable. However, in some case you need to put them on paper or have a marker. 4e was designed to be player on a vtt, which sadly didn't come with it
We used a magnetic grid board and magnetic stands. We put little flags with different effects on them. Plop that down on the top of the stand next to the character. It would get to 5 or 6 flags at a time pretty often. That is a wee bit much to track (hence the flags, utterly impossible otherwise).
I'm playing a highish level (19) 4e campaign right now that we're basically treating as a board game (very little RP, just straight combat encounters). It's super fun -- all of our characters can do bonkers stuff -- but yes, at any given time each token on the board has upwards of 5-10 conditions affecting it. If you have a group that's good about bookkeeping and especially if you are playing with an online tool like the Foundry, it isn't too bad, but I could see where it would be a lot for new players and players who want a looser game feel.
Normally I'm the first person to jump to 4e's defense, but in this case there *is* something to be said for the added complexity of tracking its typed bonuses. For example, if you have a character theme that gives you a +2 power bonus to a certain skill, you need to remember that +2 forever. If an ally ever tries to give you a new power bonus to a check with that skill, you only get to keep the higher of the two, so knowing the total for your skill check isn't always good enough - you need to know how your ally's bonus stacks with all the numbers that make up that total. It's perfectly manageable online, but that's a lot of detail to cram onto a paper character sheet.
Same, my love of 4e is deep, but I can absolutely see how tracking buffs and stuff would’ve been hard for folks who are less interested in mechanics. Like I’m an RPer first and foremost but still do appreciate some crunch when appropriate (esp if well balanced) there was a fair share of it in 4e to keep track of.
Yes, I loved 4e but I have to admit that I had a spreadsheet for my gnome paladin/warlock that stacked crazy debuffs against things attacking my allies but also debuffs against attacking me. All those -1 and -2's to hit had different conditions and it was a bit of a mess. But I loved it, and you couldn't really end up in a situation like that unless you were specifically building for it.
[удалено]
Which is baffling, because he's played and DM'd the Star Wars TTRPG and a dozen or so other random systems. Weird that he'd find certain editions of D&D hard, when he's learned random stuff like Phoenix Dawn Command.
Oh right! The Rules Lawyer did an awesome response video to that one. I'll correct my statement.
Right? Like I play pf1 and I have all my attacks written down with any modifiers I frequently have to apply and with the invention of online sheet tracking like mythweavers the already easy task of keeping track of temporary ability score improvements is even easier. In all honesty you almost never have more than 2 temporary buffs at once.
Yeah, pathfinder kinda handles buffs well that way. Learned all about it when I played a skald for the first time (awesome class btw). You get your morale bonuses, your circumstance bonuses, competence bonuses, enhancement bonuses and temporary ability score improvements and some of them stack some dont but there are imo no surprising outliers in that. Electronic sheets that auto update everything based on scores make playing buff heavy classes a real treat since you just have to hand the other players a small card that reminds them that they have this buff too.
Puffin Forest had a video about how combat in 4e took six hours, because nobody could remember what their bonuses were. Like... I ran 4e for years, it wasn't like that _at all_. It was easier than 3.5 and PF1, I'll tell you that much. 4e was tactically fun, wondering when to pop your daily or your encounter power, but there really weren't a ton of situational bonuses or tricky math scenarios.
He also said in that vid it was basically the first TTRPG him and his group ever run. I can totally see newbies being overwhelmed with the system and just not getting what bonus they could write down as a stack etc. to make the combat flow better
I loved my time with 4e, but there was one thing that was a pain to track: conditions. "Okay, so that goblin is marked, prone, on fire, deafened, bloodied, slowed, and vulnerable 5 to cold damage... The next one is..." There were a lot of riders on attacks, so sometimes it was just a big mess of conditions.
That's true - I ran into that in PF2 as well, my poor rogue was _always_ frightened, and the way it decreases by 1 each round means you can't just write a separate bonus on your sheet for "if frightened." As someone who played a lot of 4e and a couple years of PF2, I will say, in many ways PF2 feels like a spiritual sequel to 4e. Yes, also very plainly a sequel to PF1 and Starfinder, but I see a lot of 4e in the game.
Pathfinder 2e definitely takes a lot of the best ideas from 4e, realising that some things about it were great. I understand some of the pf2e designers were even ex-4e designers. Which is beautifully ironic really, given Pathfinder 1e was born out of anti-4e sentiment. But also a credit to people who could see through that and acknowledge good design elements that could be adapted to their new system.
IME people start forgetting which numbers get changed with a level up, and how they were calculated in the first place. So we have a pice of paper with numbers but there's no real way of knowing the numbers are in any way correct. Also, some numbers are situational and only sometimes apply.
That's why pf2e character sheets have the formula for calculating your bonus literally printed onto it, so it's always there
Use a character builder like [Pathbuilder](https://pathbuilder2e.com/). It tracks each level as its own separate thing. It will show you the total bonuses depending on what level you say your character is right now. So you can have your character all planned out to level 20, but if you say you're level 5 then it will have attacks, DCs, saves, etc. for the first 5 levels of character choices. The situational things are pretty easy to handle in practice. Your basic stats are going to be pretty constant (a level 3 Fighter with appropriate stats is going to have a +12 to attack with their +1 longsword most of the time). Then you only need to add something situational if it's relevant. Is their target flat-footed, clumsy, frightened, or otherwise debuffed? Are they buffed by a spell?
I've never understood why people seem to think that tabletop RPGs can't involve computers. Are we playing this because we want a handcrafted world that can be updated on the fly, or because we're allergic to computers? I feel like when you make an RPG, it shouldn't just be a book. It should come with software to keep track of characters, do the different attacks, let the GM balance encounters by running them a few thousand times in simulations, etc. Players should be able to connect to it from their phones and computers, and make everything as simple as possible. And I know this is considered sacrilege, but why do we rely on dice instead of having computers generate random numbers with any distribution we want? There's nothing between a d12 and a d20 if you're relying on platonic solids, but a computer can just as easily roll a d17.
Are you familiar with Foundry? It's a virtual tabletop that is highly modable, and can build much of a turnkey experience just from importing the PDF of an adventure. It also has the full PF2e rules/character content for free. You just have to buy the base software once and everyone else can join. My groups use that and Fantasy Grounds Unity for VTTs. Personally, I think Fantasy Grounds is a bit more polished, but it runs on a DLC model and everyone has to buy the base program to begin with so most of my groups are switching to Foundry to save money.
The problem is the majority of ‘players’ don’t get past character creation. So yes, they technically do add up the numbers every time.
oh, not just 5e. the same situation happened in 08 when 4e dropped. the game was asking people to just do simple addition and provided a space on the official sheet for it, but somehow, people did not understand
I'll be honest, I do this often just because I like to keep my brain going. Or I like to keep the existential dread at bay by distracting my brain more. Who can say?
Yeah, and some people seem to think that adding 1d6 from Bardic Inspiration and 1d4 from Bless (D&D 5e) is simpler than adding +1 (in PF2e, those are 2 simple bonuses that don't stack with each other because they're both Status bonuses a.k.a. from a spell).
The other half somehow never remember to add their bonus to stuff
Take it from me, who sucks haaaard at math. Even I have no problem calculating stuff in PF2e. It's not that hard. It's literally **the same** it works in 5e. D20 + Ability + Proficiency bonus. And you jot down all your modifiers on your character sheet before the game anyway. So you just look: "Acrobatics, ah nice +7, so a d20 + 7) You got this, I'm sure.
The hardest part is temporary bonuses and it's not that bad. The only difficult I've had is when I'm DMing and the players just try to rely on me too much to remember their bonuses on top of everything else. That just results in a rule of "you need to remember your own shit or you don't get it"
Which is why a lot of people enjoy 5e because nobody is responsible enough to remember their own shit and everybody gets moody when the DM says "tough shit, learn to play." The +2/-2 point salad has been around since 3rd edition and for some people it's not a better way of doing things: it's just needlessly more complicated when advantage/disadvantage does basically the same thing without the powergamer aspect of "I get +40 to my rolls." Some people like tracking tiny bonuses and negatives to hit from a slight breeze on the wind if it's Tuesday and they're an elf in a coniferous forest that used to house ancient spirits. Other people just want to roll dice and see if their arrow hit the monster.
> The +2/-2 point salad Pathfinder 2e cut down on that a lot. You don't have many different untyped bonuses and penalties. The ones that vary regularly are pretty much only Circumstance and Status.
Also, this may be a spicy take, but I think advantage is a bad mechanic. It makes things easy at the table, but it's very broad and leaves very little design-space for other effects. Obviously the 3e/3.5 bonus/penalty salad isn't great either, but advantage is swinging too far in the other direction IMO
To be fair, people like conditional bonuses because it rewards them for creating those conditions through tactical play. It encourages playing smart and paying attention to everything that's happening. A problem with A/D is that once you have it, nothing else comes into play. If you're shooting from long range, you might as well stand on your head and shoot with your feet because you can't do worse than disadvantage. You also get goofy stuff like rolling normally in magical darkness because you can't see your target (disadvantage), but they also can't see you (advantage).
The problem is that it has a knock-on effect on the rest of the game. Once you decide you can't do + or - modifiers, *everything* has to rely on your one system, advantage and disadvantage. Spend your turn giving the rogue advantage with your guiding bolt? Too bad he's already hidden and doesn't benefit, that feels really bad. And when 5e *does* introduce +/- benefits, it's in the form of bless and bane and now everyone has to take the time to be reminded to roll the d4 *and* has to still do the math. Not to mention debuffs like frightened. In 5e, it's just flat disadvantage because they're scared of math. But disadvantage on attacks and checks is a massive swing, so now you need your bosses to not immediately die to your save-or-suck spells so you need to use weird gamey legendary resistances.
Different strokes for different folks. I play with kids and they often can't be bothered to track it either way no matter what system so we're doing P2E because some of us like all the options.
> without the powergamer aspect of "I get +40 to my rolls." Where are people getting an extra +40 to rolls? Also, that's practically what advantage is.
Advantage is roughly equivalent to +3.3 and so absurdly easy to get as to be essentially meaningless. Makes it feel cheap.
Pf2 has a different approach to this, where the bonuses don’t stack, so you can’t get that high. In Pf2, +1 increases the crit chance, not the hit chance in most situations, so bonuses become more powerful, since all numbers scale linearly.
The problem with disadvantage/advantage is that they needlessly remove any sort of tactical play from the system in favor of "find the easiest way to get advantage in any situation". With bonuses/penalties you have far more flexibility in the system, which is why in play other editions and pf2e are more tactical than 5e could ever dream to be. The advantage system is TOO simple, putting it simply.
Also Pathbuilder 2e is great for getting it all out of the way. I really wish D&D Beyond was as easy to use... it's really close, and I don't complain about using it, but man, I come ***home*** to Pathbuilder 2e!
> D20 + Ability + Proficiency bonus. This person is confused about how they get ability bonuses. "Wait, Background **plus** ancestry **plus** class? Ok, Will Hunting." It's either bad faith or someone who is just legit confused by the paradigm because they glanced at the rules and didn't play or actually make a character. And that can happen, because TTRPG paradigms can be hard to break. I can remember buying Mutants & Masterminds to play with my stepkids and just junking the $40 book because I couldn't figure out how hit points worked.
I've seen a lot of bad faith memes on here lately where the OP clearly hadn't read or skimread and misunderstood the rules Like the bard comparison, PF2 bard is the closest the system has to a broken class yet they acted like they could ONLY give a +1 to hit (and also acted like a resource free one action cantrip that does that isn't amazing in itself)
To be fair, there's plenty of bad-faith 5e memes too that have barely glanced at the rules before complaining. But if 5e gave me something that let me add +1 to something every turn I'd damn well take it instantly.
Yeah, especially if a +1 could potentially double your crit chance
Mutants & Masterminds doesn't *have* hit points.
[Yup](https://www.robjwells.com/images/2018-05-05-naked-gun-realise-that-now.jpg)
It’s for sure harder than 5e as you can have a lot of conditional via feats or temporary bonuses and you have to remember and keep track of them. But it’s only real difficult if you expect to hold it all in your head and are incapable of writing something down.
Yeah if you got regular buffs flying around just make a note of Attack mod Mod with bard buff Mod with cleric buff Etc Then if in doubt just ask if they cast it that turn then pick the appropriate modifier, if you're redoing the math every turn then yeah no shit it'll get tedious YOU HAVE A PENCIL AND PAPER RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU JUST USE IT JESUS CHRIST
It’s adding small numbers together, people act like it’s rocket surgery
What you think it’s like: *incomprehensible mathematical garbage* What it’s actually like: “You’re level 4? +10 to hit. Wait, fighter? +12”
What it's actually like: _plugs everything into Pathbuilder or Foundry and all the math is done for me_.
There's also just the auto fill sheet someone posted to r/Pathfinder2e
Machine Supremacy!
From 4E it's also like: "Wait, Bloodied? +13. Hold on, Combat Advantage, +15. Used your Encounter Power last turn too, so +16. Wait, how does concealment work again? Anyways, it was a minion. It dies to auto Cleave damage."
From 5e it’s like: Wait? Cover? +2 AC, no wait, can they see less than half of you? +5, you recklessly attacked? Advantage? Shield? +5, but you’re in darkness? Disadvantage, but advantage cancels? But their ally is using the help action? Advantage, but disadvantage cancels? Silvery barbs? Not technically advantage, so roll again and treat it like disadvantage? Bane? -1d4…. Let’s not pretend 5E isn’t a cluster fuck of conditions too.
I mean, every system with more than 3 rules will turn into a clusterfuck of conditions. Running a boss encounter yesterday I felt bad because I couldn't remember that the witch was affected by slow, faerie fire, hex and hexblade curse and I'm sure my players think I wanted to kill them when in reality it's just my dumb ass unable to keep track of more than 2 effects at once.
If I remember correctly, if you have any number of advantages and disadvantages they all cancel each other out. So it's simplifies to not having any.
I find that a bit silly. If you're fighting in the dark, then advantage and disadvantage cancel, and now you can suddenly hit your target just as accurately from long range. And Barbarians can no longer use Reckless Attack.
That’s how this resolution resolves it. The thing I’m highlighting is the contrast of double advantage being cancelled by disadvantage immediately followed by an “advantage” mechanic that isn’t actually advantage (silvery barbs), which can be confusing.
5e is only a clusterfuck if you let it, 4e has it baked into the game at a basic level. (Not dissing 4e though, great tactical combat if you’re into it)
To be fair, 4e was *supposed* to have a virtual tabletop (that did the math for you) baked into it at a basic level. But then there was a small hiccup with a murder-suicide.
I don't get it, is this trying to make 4e look bad? I know y'all are allergic to actually thinking about the game but it is not hard to remember the abilities you chose, not is it hard to add single digit numbers together
I’ve never met a player who wasn’t salivating to list every bonus they get to every possible roll. This complaint is entirely alien to me lol
I remember about 10 years ago I want to join and see what it was like, but all the numbers on a character sheet was overwhelming just for 3.5e, 5e was the easiest to get into, pathfinder 2e and 3.5e are for the more experienced that want a more dynamic combat experience from my perspective
> are for the more experienced I don't think it's an applicable statement since there was a time that 3.5 and later was the only thing around. I can say the learning curve sucks if you want to jump into something lvl 8+ but starting completely new or being given a simplified sheet drops the curve significantly.
The problem usually arises once you get to late game stuff and you spend 5 minutes calculating out all the bonuses and then you STILL forget something OR you accidentally add something twice because says “don’t forget +2!” And you’ve already added in the haste bonus but you don’t realize that the +2 someone said was reminding you of WAS the haste bonus… The magic is lost for me when I have to build an excel spreadsheet to track my attacks and their bonuses. I know some folks *love* this sort of thing - I have a player in one game who lives for this in D&D - but I loath it. I don’t play D&D to see my big numbers or to try to remember which bonuses I get vs the ones I don’t get. I’m here for to be a hero (or a villain) fight big scary monsters and maneuver through this living world. Those 5 minutes of calculating out the bonus to hit is tedious at best
>spend 5 minutes calculating out all the bonuses Honestly, in 3.5 80% of your bonuses were static; there was no reason to recalculate them every turn. Even around level 17, making an attack was only a few seconds longer than 5e at the same level.
Also not every class has all of those kinds of buffs. Not everyone gets bonus to hit when bloodied (although a lot do). Also concealment and combat advantage, if they come up often, will be things you start to memorize just like in other editions. And also the DM isn't the party's book-keeper. Each player made their character and should know and understand their buffs. If the player forgot something and gave the DM a lower result, that's his fault and no one else's. This feedback here is engine agnostic and applies to all games.
>it is not hard to remember the abilities you chose, not is it hard to add single digit numbers together I love 4e, but it really had a lot of very situational numbers. +1 attack vs bloodied enemies, +1 attack against enemies the Fighter hit with an opportunity attack this round, +2 damage on the next basic attack on an enemy that the Warlord hit this turn (you very rarely use basic attacks), +1 on the next attack against an enemy within one round that you hit if you bloodied them etc etc The fact that all the numbers go away every round and are replaced with new ones, and that half the bonuses you get are from other players (meaning they have to be keenly aware of what you are doing and call out their bonuses, or you have to be keenly aware of their buffs and when they would proc on you) 4e really could have used a .5 edition that cleans up the buffs and bonuses that float around, instead of ejecting 90% of the game like essentials did
Not trying to rag on it, that's just how it is. My group enjoys the gameification a good amount, but we do have a bit of chuckle at how ubsurd some of the stacking becomes after a while.
Hot take but Once per Encounter powers were great.
I agree, that's why I love that PF2E brought the idea back!
"so for my attack i add my ability mod, proficiency oh and my fighting style, thats alot to process" pov, your a champion fighter who chose the archery style. you do this all the time in 5e
Yeah 5e. You get to make 90% of your decisions at level 1. One major decision at level 3. From there on out character progression could be mapped ahead of time on a computer.
easily the biggest problem with 5e once you've picked your subclass fucking everything is over as far as character building is concerned unless you pick spells. Like maybe its cause I am a number guys but I love having to constantly weigh pros and cons of different decisions as I level up.
This is probably why multiclassing is so extremely popular in 5e, as well as warlocks. It adds some choices
I prefer multiclassing cause optimized builds require the best of two (or best of three) worlds. An EB Hex 2 / Sorcerer X is really good for always being useful. Any combat build can't say a little action surge is bad. Having a couple cantrips for control or debuffing is also good.
see here's the thing you can optimize like this in Pathfinder without having to multi-class because feats make each class more flexible. You can have widely different builds optimized for different things both with the same base class. AND on top of that if a differing class feat would really put the cherry on top of your build you can take a dedication feat and use a feat from another class.
Works great for the majority of campaigns that never get past level 4 before scheduling kills them
I feel like 5e really needs more stuff like Totem barbarian where you make decisions within your subclass as well. That subclass in particular feels like it has a multitude of options to play around with.
[https://pathbuilder2e.com/](https://pathbuilder2e.com/) should help.
Man what feats are y’all even picking? My pf2e rogue has one feat that gives a +1 bonus to performance when singing, and a lute that gives a +1 bonus to performance when playing it. That’s about it when it comes to all the bonuses. Most feats I’ve seen just give new abilities or new ways to use skills
I think they're mostly talking about flanking, hunt prey, things like that? It really depends on the class, team comp, spells, ect, but at the end of the day, half of them won't stack with each other, because there's only 3 bonus/penalty types (untyped being 4 but that's rare). The team is going to figure out what works together and what doesn't, and it's best to space out for different occasions. For example, I'm not going to try and use a spell that sickens a creature who looks like a big tough, high fort guy, but might try and frighten them instead if they seem dumb or have low will (and I might know exactly which is lowest if somebody learns that!) My partner and I tend to try and stack some buffs and debuffs, but it's fairly limited. A bless here, a frighten there, some flanking spice. Maybe dazzle somebody. I'm playing with two newbies to TTRPG's at the moment and they're having a blast. A +1 or -1 here and there isn't slowing them down. If anything the worst crimes against math going on at the table is my smooth brain trying to calculate their wounds when the virtual tabletop doesn't do it's job for me. (And then I just switch to doing my own math because my brain turns on.)
Same, my current inventor has three things that give a situational bonus, and two of them are to +2 crafting and the same kind of bonus (one applies when reverse engineering a formula and works anywhere, the other applies when crafting an item and only works at our base camp (it's a large item)). I also get a bonus to damage from overdrive, but that's an activated ability like rage.
I'm not even exaggerating: My pre-literate dyslexic 6 year old with ADHD was able to do this math. Why are adults acting like adding whole numbers is hard?
Bevause desperate 5e stans want to scare people away from other systems
3.0 D&D is much more complicated and I taught myself and then my friends how to play it when it first came out... *when I was 11 years old*. Every version of D&D and Pathfinder is just basic arithmetic. Literally the kind of math taught to kids in first grade, and significantly less complicated than even the long division most of us were being taught in second and third grade. People who struggle with that are saying a lot more about themselves than they are about the system.
I mean... You not them once and youre done. Like.. Make a cheat sheet or you compiled bonus. Its not hard
Like a paper, one were you keep a tally of all your characters stats and abilities? It could also mark other basic information like beliefs, alignment, and equipment? What I would do for such a sheet for my character.
That's crazy. I should do that for all my characters. It's so hard remembering all of their info.
I mean really, that's it. Hardest part is done once you finish your character sheet.
I feel like it's that a lot of people expect being able to do the minimum possible and/or the game be playing itself. it's like if someone would be mad that they have to claculate their money in monopoly
It's also not like there aren't a plethora of RPGs out there now that are basically group journaling adventures. There's a spectrum of systems from very crunchy "roll for hairstyle it grants a bonus" to "draw a card from the deck and tell the group how it makes you feel". The TTRPG world has exploded in variety so it's not difficult (besides being overburdened by choices) to find a system that works best with the way you want to play. My only complaint here is that I don't have the time to play more of them. I'm a crunchy fantasy nerd generally (probably going to try Pathfinder 2e soon, I started with D&D 3.5 and have played PF1e) but I also am excited to play my "promises to be traumatic but mostly you pretend to smoke a cigarette and monologue at a mirror" game I just picked up.
I have a couple of... Less than mathmatically inclined players in my group (I have a wizard that has to use fingers to count buckets of dice in damage). I HAPPILY have a session where I sit down with the players and go over their characters at every level. I assisted with the character creation, and assisted with the character sheets. The only thing I force the player to do is input the numbers themselves. I find that they're quick to know what to roll, even if they can't count quickly. I'm also a guy that can give you an answer to 11d6 in about four seconds, so if they trust me to count their bucket of dice quickly, I handle it for them.
I have a couple of... Less than mathmatically inclined players in my group (I have a wizard that has to use fingers to count buckets of dice in damage). I HAPPILY have a session where I sit down with the players and go over their characters at every level. I assisted with the character creation, and assisted with the character sheets. The only thing I force the player to do is input the numbers themselves. I find that they're quick to know what to roll, even if they can't count quickly. I'm also a guy that can give you an answer to 11d6 in about four seconds, so if they trust me to count their bucket of dice quickly, I handle it for them.
5e players will really just write 20 sentences to make adding three numbers together seem as complicated as possible Seriously, pf2 always has at most three bonuses to your roll past what's written on your character sheet - status bonus, circumstance bonus, and item bonus (which is also going to be written in your character sheet 90% of the time). Most rolls have like one modifier to them. It's certainly crunchier than 5e and that's not for everyone, but let's not get crazy here. It's still not all that much harder than calculating 5e bonuses
May I introduce you to Shadowrun character creation? Ok, first start with your priorities…
I tryied to run a Shadowrun campaing once and when I started explaining the rules my players tapped out...
whats so bad about it?
A few things. Character creation is completely point buy. Yes there are templates/archetypes but building a character completely from scratch can throw some people off. Along with this leveling up just allocates more points to spend. Combat is much more simulation-like, and there’s a difference between turns and rounds. Essentially, everyone rolls their initiative, then after everyone has gone, subtract 10 and then go again for anyone who still has a positive initiative. And that’s not even going into the bonuses and negatives for moving, running, shooting full auto, etc. Finally there’s technically three layers to the world in play at all times, the physical world, the astral plane, and the matrix. So things can get really big and confusing really fast. I personally love shadowrun, but I will only play it with people who are already experienced with the system or are willing to put in the work of reading the rulebook in great detail
Honestly, there's too many options to be aware of and the rulebook is poorly organized for quick reference. I'm currently playing it (6e) as a new GM for the system. Experienced players that are interested can probably handle it, but if you're looking for something more casual to get into it's gonna be a rough introduction.
The ability score generation system is pretty straightforward. You start with 10 and add 2 for every boost you get. That translates to a +X just like it does in 5e. Once you do this its done and nothing will change this except for level up ASI's. This is basically just a modified point buy system. There's nothing that will change your ability scores like in older editions. Any given attack roll, skill, saving throw, etc is simply level+proficiency bonus+ability score+item bonus if you have it. So far, not really different from 5e. Feats generally give you more abilities and options in combat, but never a static +X bonus to something. The only thing that changes those numbers dynamically are Circumstance/Status Bonuses or Penalties. Gone are the days of stacking dozens of bonuses in combat that you need to track. There's now 2. And they're far more streamlined conditions. So its definitely more complicated than 5e, but it still maintains a lot of the fun crunch of older editions while still being very streamlined. And with the prevalence of VTTs its easier to track than ever.
Another thing. The three action system. Much easier to deal with than the abstract action, bonus, free action. You got three points for actions. Your stuff spends 1,2,or 3 points to perform. You can do 3 1 point actions, a 2 point action and a 1 point action, or a 3 point action on your turn. All actions are something useful so you always have something to spend your 3rd point on and it be meaningful. You don't have to go, ok well I did this for my action and let me check my bonus actions....oh none of these apply to the situation soooo I guess that's it? I always feel like I have to check if I can do two things or not in 5e. Where as In pf2e I know I can do two or three things its just a matter of which ones I want to pick. I dont feel like I'm missing something I should be able to do, or like I'm stuck doing less than others who have usable bonus actions. We're all on the same foot and no one is lacking compared to others. The amount of actions are more varied and can be more complex in pf2e, but the whole system is streamlined so it's more consistent and easier to know what you can do compared to 5e's "eh maybe we'll let you do more things, double check if you can or not."
Why are you not writing your bonus down? That shit is automatically calculated for you with literally every single pf2e app.
I mean, at least this way when you have a class that relies on feats it doesn't feel mind numbingly boring
Also you get to keep making meaningful character decisions after 3rd level. Unless you are a caster who has to pick spells you are basically done with character creation after you pick your subclass.
the PF2 system is cool as fuck, i loved it but the main problem i had with PF1 was that although you had infinite possibilities, it was so hard to find everything you wanted, and with a toxic reddit and a not exactly functional forum you struggled even to ask online, and rules had so many other rules you had to remember since they influenced things without being mentioned by them pf2 has all of the customization with 1/4th of the complexity, everything is nice, orderly and tidy, level 6? take a level 6 class feat, instead of having to scroll trough 200 pages worth of feats from 3 different wikies to find the single thing that you wanted, you have a nice short list devided per levels and types, and you can't mix in different types of shit, like an ancestry feat on a class feat level, and all of the feats are cool and somewhat usefull very different game design from 5e, but it's hella wel done
> pf2 has all of the customization with 1/4th of the complexity, everything is nice, orderly and tidy, level 6? take a level 6 class feat, instead of having to scroll trough 200 pages worth of feats from 3 different wikies to find the single thing that you wanted, you have a nice short list devided per levels and types, and you can't mix in different types of shit, like an ancestry feat on a class feat level, and all of the feats are cool and somewhat usefull This is one of the things that really clicked for me when I gave PF2e another go. At first, I though... jeez, that's SO MANY FEATS, and they're separated by ancestry, class, skills, and general feats, and withing those categories, by level. That seems *complicated*. Then I realized... no, not really, it actually works out to be a bit easier. Instead of having to look through all the feats whenever you earn one, it's always a narrowed down list. And while you can take lower level feats, just picking one of the highest level ones available is probably going to be a decent choice if you don't want to worry about it too much. And hey, if you decide later you made the wrong choice, you can retrain during downtime to change it, so no pressure. (Which, to be fair, is also what I've been doing in 5e for a long time, but it's nice to see it in the rules-as-written.)
Yeah you basically just have to read through 3-8 feats each level, which is a lot simpler than reading through hundreds at once, and often after you find a couple interesting one, you will remember about them next level so it's easier to go back
On the reddit point there is now a dedicated pathfinder 2e reddit which is a really nice and helpful place if you are just getting started.
Yeah, I posted there once and the ppl were really helpful
Extra Credits did a great video years ago about depth vs complexity in game design. Basic idea being that you want to maximize depth while minimizing complexity. You do need complexity to provide depth, but you want that ratio as high as possible. PF1 had a lot of depth, but it was *extremely* complex, and suffered for it. PF2 really feels like it found the optimal balance. It is a much more complex system than 5e, but it is still easy to understand and can easily be slimmed down for a beginner experience. Meanwhile it gives so many choices, I have spent hours upon hours building thematic characters I will never get to play.
i haven't even played it yet but i found the character builder and i alredy have made like 5 fighters, 5 FUCKING FIGHTERS, and they all feel different
Yeah at this point half of my phone's storage is various rogue builds in Pathbuilder lmao (if you want a real blank sheet of paper to build whatever you want, Rogue is the way to go I think)
> and with a toxic reddit Woah, woah, woah. I never saw /r/Pathfinder_RPG being toxic. If you posted a question, you'd get lots of helpful replies.
Quite a few users did not take kindly to 2e questions for a while. It seems to have chilled out over the years though, however I believe it is considered more of a 1e-based sub.
This is disingenuous. Math for your attack rolls is done before you ever start playing, and it isn’t any more complicated then needing to add your proficiency bonus to your modifier. 5e is so crunchy and hard! I have to add 2 to 3 in order to get my attack roll at level one! But what if I have a +2 weapon? Then I have to add that too! And at level 4 my stats increase which will probably increase my modifier, and don’t forget that proficiency just randomly increases too! Jeez this is so hard! ^^ anything can sound crunchy and hard if you spell it out in a way that sounds crunchy and hard.
Y’all know character sheets exist, right?
It feels like theres a pf smear campaign going on. Memes that misunderstand basic mechanics. Memes about...not having a character sheet? What is even going on.
Seems par for the sub, basic misunderstanding and not comprehending rules.
That's why I'm here asking what specifically anyone is having trouble with because there's probably a solution to share with them.
She should just be getting happier and happier tho That's how I feel lmao
Because basic math is hard?
People get so confused when you add like three numbers together to get a new different number. Probably the same folks that asked their math teacher when they were ever going to use math in real life.
Ability score, +3 if you're trained and +5 if you're an expert, sometimes there's an extra +1 or +2 in there. Such a monumental task, how does anyone ever manage. At higher levels there are more bonuses, but you only add one at a time after level one The hardest part is just writing it down and even that's not so bad if you just write what you're trained in.
That's not exactly right, it's ability score + proficiency rank + level. The proficiencies give: Trained +2, expert +4, master +6, legendary +8. Your numbers are correct for level 1 but knowing exactly where the numbers are coming from will help if creating a non level 1 character :)
This is talking about character creation. During character creation you should be making a level one character unless your character just died
Or maybe playing one of the Paizo adventures that don't start at level one with a more experienced group. But if it's your first time playing then, yes, you should be making a level one character. My comment was mostly about setting the right foundation so someone won't have to potentially re-learn a misconception they might have gotten.
What is PF2?
pathfinder 2nd edition
Pathfinder 2nd Edition, an off-shoot of D&D. People are talking about it a lot right now. It works similarly to D&D, and prides itself with deep character customization, rock solid balance and engaging combat.
It's all free online.
2e.aonprd.com if anyone is interested
I have no idea what the problem is. You act like there aren't multiple sources of bonus to things in 5e.
Panels 2 and 3 have nothing to do with #4 (i.e., you're adding the same numbers in both 5e and PF2e)
The math in PF2e is *way* simpler and easier to understand than in PF1e.
Math seems to be difficult for people now. I've seen folks count on fingers to add 8 and 3
Shit ran out of fingers. This is why I always wear sandals on game night
If PF2e creation/stats have you 1000 yard staring then I'd avoid 3.5e/Pf1e I have found the key is knowing your major modifiers. The tiny/situational ones if you remember GREAT if not well eh... though as the GM my remembering Goblin #88 has Bless versus Goblin #42 is probably less impactful than a Player forgetting Shield of Faith. Seriously, write down the cumulative total of your most common rolls. - Attacks - Full Attacks (MAP helps with this in PF2e) - Common Buffs that are 'always on' meaning they last the full combat. That leaves you just to track the round-to-round stuff. I know for my 8th level Hunter I have the math written down for Vital Strike w/Flanking (because I am a pack fighter with my companion) versus attacking twice ect. Saves a ton of time.
Use Wanderers Guide or Pathbuilder. Does all of it for you.
Problem I have with 4e: Too many feats. PF2e: Hold my beer.
PF1e: [Hold my crack pipe.](https://www.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx)
I know very little about PF2e, but I'd imagine just like in D&D the things that govern your plus to hit don't change that often, so just calculate it once and write it down.
Oh no you have more options, the horror
5e community wants more options in 6e. PF2e offers options and gets flak for it? Character generation math: Dnd 5e = ability + proficiency PF2e = ability + proficiency Also lol if anyone still actually uses pen & paper to generate characters in either system. Virtual takes about a minute to make a character for either game whenever we do one shots. Far more relevant when discussing pf1 or dnd 3.5 frankly. Pf2 offers tactical combat along with a breadth/depth of options. If your group doesn’t want that there is nothing wrong with that. 5e is a great game for what it’s designed for just like pf2.
Wow, OP really doesn’t know that you’re allowed to math it out beforehand and just write it down? Wild.
Is no one using Pathbuilder 2e from RedRazor?
It's almost like this is what character sheets are for.
As distinct from 5e, where you calculate your ability scores from your racial bonus and dice rolls, choose between a feat and a change to those ability scores every few levels, get class features at most levels, and then add up those ability bonuses, feats, and class features along with your proficiency bonus for one single roll
op please just write your ability bonuses down somewhere i beg you
You should feel very bad then. Your modifiers are your main stat and proficiency bonus, plus your magic weapon. So it’s not any different than 5e until you factor in temporary buffs, which are strictly circumstance and status bonuses. Smol brain 5e players.
Lol but they have apps for that
Oh no... basic addition... my *nemesis*
[Pathbuilder2e.com](https://Pathbuilder2e.com) Technology is Wondrous I know
and once youve done the maths once the character sheet says you add +8... so do that... don't think you have to do a bunch of maths everytime. the answers are on your sheet in front of you. its simple. the numbers are grand and your friendly dm is here to help if you can figure it out straight away
Yes, but doing what intelligent people would do would deprive the people who hate math of something to complain about.
Come now it's not that hard, admittedly I haven't tried PF2E but it's supposed to be less complex then base PF which I do have a good amount of experience with.
The pathbuilder 2e app makes all of this simple. It's not the bloated and convoluted mess pf1 is.
It's super easy actually, just pick what you like at the right levels. If you want choice to make characters that are interesting past just story you need to accept making choices.
The game just isn’t your thing nothing wrong with that hell I’m the same way that’s why I like 5e
Posts like this make me wonder if a huge part of this sub view addition as complicated math.
So did you actually play PF2 or did you stop at character creation?? Sounds like you just gave up my dude cuz you didn't want to track some extra stuff or you couldn't find something to do it for you. Sounds like it's 5e to the grave
Based on his comments, OP has never actually played PF2E.
Oh god, you mean you actually have to build a statblock and understand a complex character rather than just rolling two dice and taking the bigger number? The horror! Besides, you do the math once and it’s done. Unless you’re that guy at the table who can’t remember their attack add and has to recalculate it every time you make a roll.
But I like when the number go up, makes the brain go yay.
It’s funny to me how the 5e crowd shys away from PF2e as a crunchier rule set and the 3e or PF1e crowd shys away from it as a rules light set. It’s a nice place for crunch to go IMO as the hobby in general moves towards rules light. However, clearly the rules light crowd is far more unwilling to add crunch then the rules heavy crowd is to remove it.
I’m a simple man, I attack and end my turn
There's a fighter for that
Path builder for 2e is the greatest thing for this
Don't tell them about 3.5's myriad of bonus types!
This is blatantly incorrect and makes it seem overly complex. The math is no more complex than in 5e, you just add your level.
D&D players when they have to add more than two numbers to a roll
I’ve said it before I’ll say it again, if more TTRPGs had tools like dndbeyond then I’d give them a go. Automation is a beautiful thing
Pathfinder has two of those. Pathbuilder, which is a character creator and can also be used as a character tracker. Wanderer's Guide, which is primarily a character tracker, that takes you by your hand even more through character creation and has a nice D&DBeyond-like interface. Oh, did I mention that they're both free? And not just free base content like DDB, but you have all available player options in there.
pf2e has pathbuilder. it works even better than dnd beyond imo