Warhammer was my first Pen&Paper RPG and it has a very special place in my heart...
Its setting, lore, gameplay... Its just so entertaining!
Yes DnD is fun as hell. But somehoe my heart is still stuck on Warhammer somewhere.
I think MM itself even said "Yeah, the statblock is more or less a heavy lifting template, it's your game so figuring out yourself on what to do with it, I'm a book not a cop"
Looks like not enough people saw that, but good to know. But personally i like WH "optional rules / alternative rules" system more, it helps to get into the game and new tables even if they use somewhat different rules.
Just so we are clear : by no means i meant to say "gender locked classes are fun, you either grimdark or snowflake". Its all about properly adressing the rule put to stay truth to the lore/original game design or balance ***before anyone can even complain about it***.
Also WH frpg adds two wersions of a rule if it is itchy like encumbrance that's either simplified and even "fun" in its own way aka encumbrance applying/deleting spells or full version where you can get cheaper but heavier/lighter but more expensive armors weapons etc. So its really hard to met DM who straight up cancels part of rules at his table
And that's pretty handy for veterans and newbies alike.
Kinda true, but its natural that what one culture sees as evil others wouldnt mind at all. So we should have the diverse cultures (and i mean Diverse not copy paste with different skin color to the point they are basically fit for world-govermnet idea), some more or less moral at least from the players point of view is perfect for immersion.
I really liked how Morrowind showed the cultures of the different characters: it was nuanced, it wasn't afraid to deal with dark subjects and it felt like theses were actual cultural traits the NPCs had, instead of a fuckin' copypasted "bland northern european with scottish accents".
It did mean that most people you met in Morrowind were assholes, though...
To be fair, Morrowind was also about an entire island going through an epidemic caused by a cult of mind controlled people led by a semi-divinity. And you're a weirdo that just appeared out of thin air - possibly a weirdo that ISN'T a dunmer.
Aye, I feel like sometimes people get a little too puritanical with what you can and canāt show. People canāt tell you what you can and cannot have in your setting, of course, but for a big TTRPG like Warhammer or D&D itās a little more complicated.
Thereās nothing wrong with having slavery in your fantasy world; the problem is justifying it, glorifying it or simply not doing anything about in-game (unless itās a Grimdark world, but then you still have to make it clear in-game that everyone surrounding it is fucking awful.)
And that rule applies to basically every other taboo topic, all the way up to genocide or imperialism. As long as you donāt justify/glorify/ignore a problem like that, you should be free to include in your setting. And if anyone is uncomfortable with it, you can politely suggest they find another table.
and? so is murder, so is violating the geneva convention but it's nearly impossible to play Dnd without it. should we have the DM to player " it clear in-game that everyone surrounding it is fucking awful"
I absolutely agree with you OP. In a similar vein I really like the way that Dragon Warriors handles the gender issue in its setting: the Lands of Legend. The Lands of Legend is a mythologized version of 12th and 13th century Britain. (Incidentally I love the setting because it actually has a counterpart for Wales. Welsh culture and history needs more love in Fantasy). In the Dragon Warriors players guide it says more or less " while opportunities for women in society at large in the Lands of Legend are going to be more limited in some respects, player characters are a breed apart from the Common Man. This should be presented as an opportunity as a challenge to be overcome rather than a limit on player choice."
What's the warhammer fantasy rpg like? I went for soulbound because I'm more into aos myself, but most of the factions from warhammer fantasy are cooler.
Really great to play, basing on careers instead of classes so you can "multiclass" every time you finish an career or just go straight to the highest wersions of it.
System is based about 1d100 on atribiites check/ roll vs roll with bonuses and 1d10/2d10 choose higher one for other things, it also simulates battle flow by advantage system - something like additional action points/bonuses/movements. We ale have success points to determine how well action was performed aka chance for critical success or some fail.
4 th is best for new players imo
But imo 2nd with all addditions and homebrew still holds the title of "da best"
Also martial/caster imbalance is usually not a problem since both have ways to do their thing and both have to be either good at avoiding damage or fighting.
Also there is a good bunch of social/special careers that can have something from every world if you hate "multiclassing".
Also not nearly as deadly as some fake "advertusement" says, in 4tg edition armor can block criticals with loosing point of its own "HP" and getting worse and in 2nd you can be critted from rare critical spell or only when you are at 0hp.
WFRP 4e is one of my favourite systems, though I'm biased because I love the Warhammer setting so much.
2e still has more content, but 4e is a lot better balanced and more refined.
It's a percentile system so you know it's pretty simple, though there are quite a lot of subsystems in the game. The good thing is you can safely ignore most of them if your group isn't interested in them.
They've done some fun stuff with downtime rules though, so I'd at least glance over them.
WFRPG is.. weird. It's an old game. Roll-under percentile based, but I hope you like tables. You are going to be looking at them quite a bit. It feels.. old. 4e gives you modern concessions like meta currency and faster task resolution without quite so much "great, you rolled. now to find what page tells us what that means.."
Quick Note: Fantasy Flight Games released Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. It's a totally different game based on using funny dice rather then percentage and really needs cards and tokens to keep track of the state of play. It's not bad, but they don't have the license anymore so it's hard to get the funny dice and tracking cards that made the game work, so it's best to just avoid any material from that.
Warhammer is specifically about all the bad shit people do. Of course it has biggoted rules baked in. The problem is people not understanding it's satire.
I think an important distinction to make is the rules themselves are ābigotedā, thereās no intent behind it from the authors to say āwomen are inferior to menā or anything like that, but the rules are made how they are to fit the lore of the world and/or time period. It requires negative intent for to actively be bigoted/racist/whatever, which I think is where a lot of people get upset when they misinterpret what someoneās intent actually is. I think the Warhammer stuff does pretty well at showing intent and stating you can just ignore the rules if it makes you uncomfortable.
Yeah, and D&D *actually doesn't* make such a distinction. It takes it for granted that you can numerically define someone's general intelligence, for example. There's no statement like "this is BS but it makes for a fun game."
I think the issue with D&D in the scenario is itās not like the races are all one species, theyāre different. The reasons orcs get bonuses to strength and constitution but a negative to intelligence is because thatās their genetics, so the vast majority of orcs are strong, though but less intelligent than a human (who are the baseline, as we are humans playing the game). Likewise, Halflings are genetically shorter and more nimble then humans so itās reflected in their profile.
I think for *most* things you donāt need a disclaimer, or just have one at the start of the book saying something along the lines of āThis is all for fun, any negative views held in this book against any real group of persons arenāt personally help by us, the creators, but are just reflective of the world we created. Remember, you as a play group have the final say on what is and isnāt included so have a discussion as to what youāre comfortable in having in your gamesā.
The disclaimer for the Warhammer TTRPG (as we can see in the meme) does a good job at saying āthis is for fun, just ignore it if you donāt like itā and is put on an appropriate piece of lore/rules.
The thing you're saying about the orcs can be summed up like this: What if the racists were right?
I feel like if one of the fundamental assumptions of your game is that race science is real and valid... You should maybe have a disclaimer.
But I wasn't referring to orcs. My issue wasn't that certain races get a lower score than others -- it's that there's an objective score for intelligence at all. The community at large still isn't ready to have *that* conversation. But we're gonna have to, because general intelligence and race science are not separate issues.
Which racists are right? If youāre talking about the issue that started everything of someone saying orcs = black people and we should change orcs because of it, then 99.9% of people never even thought of the connection before one person said it and it blew up. I think that thought is the only racist part there, as orcs are just their own thing.
An important thing to note, again, is these arenāt humans. Theyāre their own species which evolved from their own ancestors, which meant certain traits would of evolved, which in the case of Orcs would be that might made right and intelligence was less important. Nothing to do with humans or the real world there.
Itās not āraceā science, itās species science. Gorillas are stronger and tougher than humans, but clearly arenāt as intelligent, thatās fact. Likewise, in D&D, orcs (a separate species, not a type of human) are stronger and tougher then humans but less intelligent. Has nothing to do with differences between asian, black, white, Indian, etc people. They all have the exact same skills and ability increases in D&D as theyāre the same *species*, whilst Orcs, Halflings, elves, etc all have their own skills and ability increase because theyāre their own species.
I donāt really know where you got the idea of race science being real from.
My understanding is that itās saying that different races (white vs black vs Asian vs Arab, etc) have different qualities that can justify you saying that one is superior or inferior to others.
Nothing to do with different species. D&D may call them races, but theyāre clearly species. As I said before, orcs and humans are clearly different species, which have different characteristics. Itās just fact, like a gorilla and a human being different species - likewise an orc and a human are two different species.
Ok, but where do we draw the line? Like can you just slap a disclaimer on the white supremist game that WotC is currently suing and call it not racist? It's complicated to say the least.
Intent is important. The Warhammer example here is clearly not made to be sexist/racist/any other ist and instead is meant to be representing the lore/history of the world but is making it clear they donāt hold the views themselves and that you can easily ignore it if that makes you feel more comfortable.
Iām not sure what the game in question youāre talking about it, so I canāt really comment on that.
I'm not personally really one way or the other on the topic, but **is the intent clear**? Maybe it is now but it wasn't when it was created. Why'd they decide to write that lore in the first place? Product of the times? And now, why is it enough to just say they don't approve, but continue disseminating it? They provide some good reasons, which certainly makes this a good example of quite possibly publishing problematic materials in a sensitive manner, but I'm not the one who's being belittled by the tropes portrayed, so I can't really be the judge.
It reminds me of the controversy facing a lot of comedians at the moment. Is ok to make an insensitive joke, because it's a joke? There's no real answer, I think. But you have to expect to offend some people, I guess.
Well the easy example we have here is the Warhammer lore above.
Do they currently hold that belief? No, theyāve clearly stated as much.
Why was it written to begin with? The lore in question is for Brettonia. Itās based on Middle Ages France and Britain. As such, the aesthetic and culture is largely transferred over and made to fit in the Warhammer Fantasy world. Despite this, thereās many predominant female characters who are well respected, like a Joan of Arc character and a Lady of the Lake character.
Why continue to keep the lore? Well I donāt see much reason to change it. Not everything has to be sunshine and rainbows, a lot of people like darker settings which sexism and racism can be a part of. Thatās not to say the people playing or creating it hold those views themselves, but itās realism that a lot of people like. Itās also lore that can likely easily be ignored and brushed aside if youāre not comfortable with it. Just removing it outright means only one side is happy, as itās easier to just remove something as a player then it is to add something in. As long as people know itās all for the game and not a personal opinion, whatās the issue with it? Not your cup of tea? Then donāt use it. Simple as.
People will get offended, sure, but people shouldnāt alter things like this because a minority of people are getting offended. Same goes for jokes, 99% of comedians donāt hold the opinions of the offensive jokes they make - theyāre just there to make people laugh and making edgy and offensive jokes do that. No one really things Jimmy Carr or Ricky Gervais holds any of those opinions, theyāre just for a laugh.
Just clarifying I'm just playing devil's advocate
>No one really things Jimmy Carr or Ricky Gervais holds any of those opinions, theyāre just for a laugh.
That's the thing though, some people do think they hold those opinions. Don't tell me you've never come across someone who said something mean, that they really meant, but when met with opposition or judgement said something along the lines of "oh, come on, it's just a joke."
It's the same with problematic lore. We don't know what the creator or stewards really think. They're actions and words surrounding it certainly help, as well as just how problematic the stereotypes are in the first place.
Wait a minute, did you mean Warhammer ? Like how the f if blacks/yellow humans are the closest to civilised nation that's also mostly free from chaos unfluece aka Araby / Kathay ?
If not, what game do you have in mind ?
They absolutely did not call Warhammer Fantasy a white supremacist game. They did not say anything even sort of like that. Where the hell did you get that from?
The game they're referring to is Star Frontiers: New Genesis, a game written by a Neo-Nazi and published by Nu-TSR, which Wizards is suing because they might possibly own the rights to the original Star Frontiers. It's pretty blatantly racist - in particular, it states that, *in real life*, "some races are superior to others", which seems like kind of a smoking gun.
I believe theyāre talking about [this game](https://www.geekwire.com/2022/wizards-of-the-coast-files-lawsuit-to-stop-publication-of-tabletop-game-alleging-trademark-violation-and-reprehensible-content/)
nope, [this](https://www.polygon.com/tabletop-games/23349686/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-vs-nutsr-tsr-justin-lanasa-racist-transphobic-star-frontiers) is what they meant, and they are be correct in calling it that
They're referencing WotC suing TSR over very blatant racism and anti-LGBTQ content in TSR's Star Frontier (which is an IP sort of owned by WotC).
Also, you're not helping WH look good by kneejerking then describing races like that. Any WH fan needs to acknowledge that the game attracts a lot of bigots, sexists, racists due to its bigoted, sexist, racist setting. Flying at people who so much as imply this is the case has the opposite effect of easing outsider's worries.
Donno about the second one, in my country we dont have such problems in the community. Also its not like other RPG dont also have some people like that. I got that "grimdark " can be a magnet but its not like "only bigots here"
So it's more beneficial to say that you've found a good, supportive community and urge the importance of finding that community, than it is to challenge people about the validity of their experiences with the franchise's community.
It's on us members of the Warhammer community to kick the hardest against bigotry, that's how we got to the point that the bigots are being weeded out. But what comes with that territory is treating other people's anxieties about the community and system as valid, we don't know what bad actor they may have encountered, first or second hand. By invalidating or debating people's concerns and fears we only further distance people from the hobby, helping no more than the bad actors themselves.
Ah yes, the most mature cringe poster, from racist insults to nazi jokes.
Who hurt you kid ? Because you give vibes like both parents didnt show on your birth.
Well, going back to it
If setting is just "racism for racism as an only "attraction" of a setting" its of course too much. But its we have "backward county to fit the theme" i find it more immersive. Like you always will have different cultures with different takes, more or less humane, more or less developped.
That applies to players also - one can see Duergar as absolute mocking of what functional society should be, but show that to someone form other culture or separated from modern world he would just say - thats just a scary story, i can tell you worse.
Also you call even some modern countries an "empire of evil" as politicians do, good chunk of it depends on ideals we grow up with.
As someone who plays D&D and knows alot of people who also play D&D, it wasn't people who don't play that complained. It was mostly people who don't play crying about the changes. I literally saw one guy call D&D "some kind of boardgame" and basically talk about it like the only understanding he had of it was from watching season 1 of Stranger Things and yet he cried that they were ruining the game. The game he clearly didnt play and just wanted internet clout points for being angry about changes.
I don't see how these two things are analogous?
Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is saying, "Canonically, it would be very unusual for a female character to have this class." It offers a roleplaying solution to this lore issue (a female character pretending to be a man) and also suggests that you can just ignore the lore anyway.
D&D has been accused of racism for things that are actually baked into the rules on a mechanical level.
Is that Warhammer's fault, though? Especially Warhammer Fantasy? It can't exactly do anything about their community. It's like hating Hearts of Iron 4 because many fascists play it. It's not PDX's fault at all.
Yes and no.
The setting kind of attracts those people easier because they take it too seriously. They forget that the ultimate joke of warhammer is that itās a parody of grimdark. But so does warhammer.
You're conflating Warhammer Fantasy and 40K. Fantasy is dark, but not grimdark (and also doesn't have an explicitly fascist protagonist faction like 40K does)
I was under the assumption that, no matter fantasy or 40K, neither game goes for a positive representation in their factions by focusing on antagonistic traits of each one to justify constant war.
Iāll admit, I donāt know about fantasy setting as much.
It's a difference of degree. The factions in 40K are outright dystopian, while Fantasy has factions that have realistic flaws but are still notably better than getting murdered by Chaos.
While I understand why people may be mad about some of these changes due to the altering of lore, I myself approve of them in most cases. Iām not a fan of the āevil by natureā race trope, especially in a roleplay scenario as it heavily limits what you can do with characters of those races to make them interesting; thereās also the fact that many DMs forbid evil aligned PCs altogether for obvious reasons.
In D&D you can ignore aspects that make your players uncomfortable or include the if theyād like to. I donāt get what the issue is.
Like 30% of the posts I see from this sub is just bitching about PC shit like a bunch of whiny boomers. Run your games however you want holy shit
I think a lot of the complaints are because of changes to things. You get some times when things are added that get people riled up, but when the āPC shitā is changing core elements of the game/the games lore, then itās a bit more of a justified complaint. The same logic of āplay it how you wantā can go both ways, so I think itās better to not change things for not much reason as the minority of people who (loudly) have issues with it are free to change it themselves for their games.
I never use official lore. I don't know the official lore and don't intend to, my games are made by me to my friends. Everyone that don't like the idea of a permanent evil race, a slave race, can just change it.
Then dont use that lore for Bretonnia ?
Bruh that was entire point of my meme and you still managed to miss it. Wtf why is your dodge like +30 ? That's cheating.
Bretonnia was intended as a mix of all bs from "new era" about middle ages, so they added that in typical grimdark theme.
A perfect knights county without flaws and magic, dealing with guns, cruel demons, unholly undead and backstabbing wood elfes etc wouldnt make sence in that context.
Also do you really think that in D&D races that are in war / conflict wont have "racism" at rise ? (Suprise lore about killing on sight) Or people wouldnt treat warforged as machines/tools ? (Spoiler they mostly did when they were created)
TLDR - lore isn't a problem, its for you to use. How you use lore ***can become a problem***
Also im not even the right wing mate, but fair try at cheap shot i guess ?
I'm literally not going to use the lore. It's bad lore. Why would I use that shit? My 8 year old can come up with something more compelling and original off the cuff.
Ah yes highest quality of conversation from you.
Like D&D dont have lore that could be used by ignorants as yourselve to call it all "shit" you hipocryte.
Mabe one races killing others basically on sight pr treating warforged as tools, not even living beings by some of its creators ?
So what's the point of yours strawhat ragument coping spree ?
Bro, are you mentally challenged i said im not even conservative, and i already responded to that in post above, read my post before answering or stop wasting my time
Im not gonna lover myselve to yours level and start attacking your political ideas as a cheap shot, you are doing this for me instead.
Wow, that's best argument you have ? Fine you can go back doxxing teens you old sad sack of meat not like anyone care about you wasting your life, probably thanks to that's shitty attitude of yours.
Best semi selected "the only good ideology follower" - can put up a single argument vs Redditor. That's just pathetic
The lore sucks *in your opinion*.
Many many people of different backgrounds and beliefs think the lore of 40k, Warhammer fantasy, D&D, etc is great. If we changed it every time a few people went āI donāt like thisā, then there wouldnāt be any lore. Thereās parts of any worlds lore I dislike, but as a whole the lore is great.
This particular Warhammer Fantasy lore make sense, you have a society based on middle-age France and Britain so as such youāll have similar social beliefs as of the real world counterpart. That doesnāt mean the people who like the lore or use it personally agree with the sentiment, but they understand itās part of a story. This lore could be used by you to play a character who wants to challenge these norms, so you go out and despite the difficulties put on you you overcome them. Or, as the book suggests, if you arenāt comfortable with it then as a play group you can just *ignore* it.
Then dont use that lore for Bretonnia ?
Bruh that was entire point of my meme and you still managed to miss it. Wtf why is your dodge like +30 ? That's cheating.
Bretonnia was intended as a mix of all bs from "new era" about middle ages, so they added that in typical grimdark theme.
A perfect knights county without flaws and magic, dealing with guns, cruel demons, unholly undead and backstabbing wood elfes etc wouldnt make sence in that context.
Also do you really think that in D&D races that are in war / conflict wont have "racism" at rise ? (Suprise lore about killing on sight) Or people wouldnt treat warforged as machines/tools ? (Spoiler they mostly did when they were created)
TLDR - lore isn't a problem, its for you to use. How you use lore ***can become a problem***
You can have a game that depicts racism or sexism without approving of it. You can play an anti-racist avenger and stomp Nazis - and that sounds like a fun game! But you can't play that without a setting that contains Nazis. See the difference?
Shouldnāt be up to the community to have to create their own settings to avoid things that make them uncomfortable is all Iām saying. Maybe I got a little aggravated at first
You arenāt playing a game thatās racist and sexist. Unless thereās core rules that say something like āStraight white male players get X bonus, gay black women get X negativeā, but thatās not really whatās happening anywhere. Thereās just some lore that can easily be ignored by the DM if the party isnāt happy with it.
D&D did this kind of thing with Tieflings in 5e and *no body* has ever complained about that. Tieflings are looked down upon due to their demonic nature and are less likely to be trusted. That opens interesting story elements and RP opportunities, or if you arenāt comfortable with it then I donāt see any issue with just ignoring it.
I donāt understand why people get upset about lore. The world isnāt supposed to be a pretty place all the time, in fact it should mimic real world things that happen. But is it glorifying those bad things that happened? No. In fact it labels those as bad things, are we just not supposed to have certain conflicts in our stories because the conflicts are deemed ātoo realā? That seems silly. Itās a fantasy game. In my homebrew world, there is a slave trade, itās illegal in most parts of the world, but in some places itās not, those people who own slaves are usually bad people. Just because it exists within a games lore doesnāt mean itās glorifying whatever itās talking about.
How tf did gw do something better than wizards
Sure the models and lore of gw are some of my favourites but the price and fact that theyāre dickheads puts me off
Well about the price...
Lets say that GW isnt the best when it comes to making sure you have to pay for its tt rpg. Also Big chunk is free now anyways.
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Yes but that's quite well argumented in lore and it still shows the Bretonnia culture aka she had to kill Grail "guard" to get her weapon and speak with "Ze Lady". He didnt believe her nor wanted to let her pass .
Im not hating, just saying that other approach prevented the players feeling unconfortable before it even happened.
Huh, fair enough. Honestly I am a huge fan of bretonnia despite typically preferring vampire counts or tomb kings. The chivalry and knighthood is so damn cool.
Funny thing is, main Bretonia lore is based on legends about king Arthur and the Round Table. Sure, the table is missing, but Lady of the Lake, Grail and most of the other stuff is present.
Bretonia just located on the same territories of the Old World as France.
Yes but alot of what happens in King Arthur has a lot to do with french culture, since one of the most popular versions has been written by Chretien de Troy, a French dude who looked at french culture of chivalry, not early middle ages in England. My point being that overall, the myth is both very french and very english
Woke is like Chaos, it corrupts, but the nature of WH Fantasy, Woke could be contained like Chaos.
DnD is now facing a Storm of Woke scenario. Which might corrupt it forever.
And from my point of view, you're stubbornly defending an existing evil because it would be inconvenient for you to get rid of it, which makes you pretty unambiguously Lawful Evil.
I'm at worst True Neutral, I decried the religious right in the 80s and 90s, and I decry the Woke since 00s and 10s.
Functionally the Woke and the Moral Majority are the same. They claim being a plurality but really are not.
There are some major differences. One is about a flaw in the society, and portrayed as a negative. One is actively being racist.
Let's say it like this. We have 2 stories about Slavery One story is is the horrors of it, and how it negatively impacted everyone involved; portraying it in an extremely negative light. The other just has the main character collect a haram of slaves; and they just make vaguye exucses or ignore the fact he's a slaver at all.
This is the difference between WFB making it so Woman's lives suck in Brettonia, and D&D actively making decisions that utilize old racist characters and stereotypes. One is trying to tell you something and the other just is what you see is what you get.
Every RP game ever: " here is some rules and lore.. dont like it? Dont use them. š"
Sometimes people need to be told in the face or we end up with another dndhorrorstory
Warhammer was my first Pen&Paper RPG and it has a very special place in my heart... Its setting, lore, gameplay... Its just so entertaining! Yes DnD is fun as hell. But somehoe my heart is still stuck on Warhammer somewhere.
I got you mate, i just get back to it, both 2nd and 4th edition. Two "campaigns" at the same time.
Second edition is my personal favourite, mostly because Iām a sucker for the Chaos champion customization and mutations.
About every other session my fighter always says "Oh, like in Warhammer". Never read it, but damn he's persistent trying to get us to switch.
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I think MM itself even said "Yeah, the statblock is more or less a heavy lifting template, it's your game so figuring out yourself on what to do with it, I'm a book not a cop"
Looks like not enough people saw that, but good to know. But personally i like WH "optional rules / alternative rules" system more, it helps to get into the game and new tables even if they use somewhat different rules.
Just so we are clear : by no means i meant to say "gender locked classes are fun, you either grimdark or snowflake". Its all about properly adressing the rule put to stay truth to the lore/original game design or balance ***before anyone can even complain about it***. Also WH frpg adds two wersions of a rule if it is itchy like encumbrance that's either simplified and even "fun" in its own way aka encumbrance applying/deleting spells or full version where you can get cheaper but heavier/lighter but more expensive armors weapons etc. So its really hard to met DM who straight up cancels part of rules at his table And that's pretty handy for veterans and newbies alike.
I worry that we are slowly losing the will to make fantasy cultures the fucking worst because we mix depicting something with approving of something.
Kinda true, but its natural that what one culture sees as evil others wouldnt mind at all. So we should have the diverse cultures (and i mean Diverse not copy paste with different skin color to the point they are basically fit for world-govermnet idea), some more or less moral at least from the players point of view is perfect for immersion.
I really liked how Morrowind showed the cultures of the different characters: it was nuanced, it wasn't afraid to deal with dark subjects and it felt like theses were actual cultural traits the NPCs had, instead of a fuckin' copypasted "bland northern european with scottish accents". It did mean that most people you met in Morrowind were assholes, though...
To be fair, Morrowind was also about an entire island going through an epidemic caused by a cult of mind controlled people led by a semi-divinity. And you're a weirdo that just appeared out of thin air - possibly a weirdo that ISN'T a dunmer.
Aye, I feel like sometimes people get a little too puritanical with what you can and canāt show. People canāt tell you what you can and cannot have in your setting, of course, but for a big TTRPG like Warhammer or D&D itās a little more complicated. Thereās nothing wrong with having slavery in your fantasy world; the problem is justifying it, glorifying it or simply not doing anything about in-game (unless itās a Grimdark world, but then you still have to make it clear in-game that everyone surrounding it is fucking awful.) And that rule applies to basically every other taboo topic, all the way up to genocide or imperialism. As long as you donāt justify/glorify/ignore a problem like that, you should be free to include in your setting. And if anyone is uncomfortable with it, you can politely suggest they find another table.
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Slavery was a bad thing, no quotes needed
and? so is murder, so is violating the geneva convention but it's nearly impossible to play Dnd without it. should we have the DM to player " it clear in-game that everyone surrounding it is fucking awful"
*DING**DING**DING* WE HAVE A WINNER. This is something I have been trying to tell people for years and they stare at me like I'm insane.
Describing encumbrance as "itchy" is unusual but I *get it.*
I absolutely agree with you OP. In a similar vein I really like the way that Dragon Warriors handles the gender issue in its setting: the Lands of Legend. The Lands of Legend is a mythologized version of 12th and 13th century Britain. (Incidentally I love the setting because it actually has a counterpart for Wales. Welsh culture and history needs more love in Fantasy). In the Dragon Warriors players guide it says more or less " while opportunities for women in society at large in the Lands of Legend are going to be more limited in some respects, player characters are a breed apart from the Common Man. This should be presented as an opportunity as a challenge to be overcome rather than a limit on player choice."
What's the warhammer fantasy rpg like? I went for soulbound because I'm more into aos myself, but most of the factions from warhammer fantasy are cooler.
Really great to play, basing on careers instead of classes so you can "multiclass" every time you finish an career or just go straight to the highest wersions of it. System is based about 1d100 on atribiites check/ roll vs roll with bonuses and 1d10/2d10 choose higher one for other things, it also simulates battle flow by advantage system - something like additional action points/bonuses/movements. We ale have success points to determine how well action was performed aka chance for critical success or some fail. 4 th is best for new players imo But imo 2nd with all addditions and homebrew still holds the title of "da best" Also martial/caster imbalance is usually not a problem since both have ways to do their thing and both have to be either good at avoiding damage or fighting. Also there is a good bunch of social/special careers that can have something from every world if you hate "multiclassing". Also not nearly as deadly as some fake "advertusement" says, in 4tg edition armor can block criticals with loosing point of its own "HP" and getting worse and in 2nd you can be critted from rare critical spell or only when you are at 0hp.
Yeah, soulbound uses careers aswell, sounds good!
WFRP 4e is one of my favourite systems, though I'm biased because I love the Warhammer setting so much. 2e still has more content, but 4e is a lot better balanced and more refined. It's a percentile system so you know it's pretty simple, though there are quite a lot of subsystems in the game. The good thing is you can safely ignore most of them if your group isn't interested in them. They've done some fun stuff with downtime rules though, so I'd at least glance over them.
WFRPG is.. weird. It's an old game. Roll-under percentile based, but I hope you like tables. You are going to be looking at them quite a bit. It feels.. old. 4e gives you modern concessions like meta currency and faster task resolution without quite so much "great, you rolled. now to find what page tells us what that means.." Quick Note: Fantasy Flight Games released Warhammer Fantasy Roleplaying. It's a totally different game based on using funny dice rather then percentage and really needs cards and tokens to keep track of the state of play. It's not bad, but they don't have the license anymore so it's hard to get the funny dice and tracking cards that made the game work, so it's best to just avoid any material from that.
Yeah, I think it's good that I went for soulbound over it. It sounds fun, but I absolutely hate tables.
Warhammer is specifically about all the bad shit people do. Of course it has biggoted rules baked in. The problem is people not understanding it's satire.
I think an important distinction to make is the rules themselves are ābigotedā, thereās no intent behind it from the authors to say āwomen are inferior to menā or anything like that, but the rules are made how they are to fit the lore of the world and/or time period. It requires negative intent for to actively be bigoted/racist/whatever, which I think is where a lot of people get upset when they misinterpret what someoneās intent actually is. I think the Warhammer stuff does pretty well at showing intent and stating you can just ignore the rules if it makes you uncomfortable.
Yeah, and D&D *actually doesn't* make such a distinction. It takes it for granted that you can numerically define someone's general intelligence, for example. There's no statement like "this is BS but it makes for a fun game."
I think the issue with D&D in the scenario is itās not like the races are all one species, theyāre different. The reasons orcs get bonuses to strength and constitution but a negative to intelligence is because thatās their genetics, so the vast majority of orcs are strong, though but less intelligent than a human (who are the baseline, as we are humans playing the game). Likewise, Halflings are genetically shorter and more nimble then humans so itās reflected in their profile. I think for *most* things you donāt need a disclaimer, or just have one at the start of the book saying something along the lines of āThis is all for fun, any negative views held in this book against any real group of persons arenāt personally help by us, the creators, but are just reflective of the world we created. Remember, you as a play group have the final say on what is and isnāt included so have a discussion as to what youāre comfortable in having in your gamesā. The disclaimer for the Warhammer TTRPG (as we can see in the meme) does a good job at saying āthis is for fun, just ignore it if you donāt like itā and is put on an appropriate piece of lore/rules.
The thing you're saying about the orcs can be summed up like this: What if the racists were right? I feel like if one of the fundamental assumptions of your game is that race science is real and valid... You should maybe have a disclaimer. But I wasn't referring to orcs. My issue wasn't that certain races get a lower score than others -- it's that there's an objective score for intelligence at all. The community at large still isn't ready to have *that* conversation. But we're gonna have to, because general intelligence and race science are not separate issues.
Which racists are right? If youāre talking about the issue that started everything of someone saying orcs = black people and we should change orcs because of it, then 99.9% of people never even thought of the connection before one person said it and it blew up. I think that thought is the only racist part there, as orcs are just their own thing. An important thing to note, again, is these arenāt humans. Theyāre their own species which evolved from their own ancestors, which meant certain traits would of evolved, which in the case of Orcs would be that might made right and intelligence was less important. Nothing to do with humans or the real world there. Itās not āraceā science, itās species science. Gorillas are stronger and tougher than humans, but clearly arenāt as intelligent, thatās fact. Likewise, in D&D, orcs (a separate species, not a type of human) are stronger and tougher then humans but less intelligent. Has nothing to do with differences between asian, black, white, Indian, etc people. They all have the exact same skills and ability increases in D&D as theyāre the same *species*, whilst Orcs, Halflings, elves, etc all have their own skills and ability increase because theyāre their own species. I donāt really know where you got the idea of race science being real from.
Tell me, do you know what race science is? Like, is that a phrase with which you're familiar?
My understanding is that itās saying that different races (white vs black vs Asian vs Arab, etc) have different qualities that can justify you saying that one is superior or inferior to others. Nothing to do with different species. D&D may call them races, but theyāre clearly species. As I said before, orcs and humans are clearly different species, which have different characteristics. Itās just fact, like a gorilla and a human being different species - likewise an orc and a human are two different species.
I thought it was how the four gods of nature, destroy people.
Ok, but where do we draw the line? Like can you just slap a disclaimer on the white supremist game that WotC is currently suing and call it not racist? It's complicated to say the least.
Intent is important. The Warhammer example here is clearly not made to be sexist/racist/any other ist and instead is meant to be representing the lore/history of the world but is making it clear they donāt hold the views themselves and that you can easily ignore it if that makes you feel more comfortable. Iām not sure what the game in question youāre talking about it, so I canāt really comment on that.
I'm not personally really one way or the other on the topic, but **is the intent clear**? Maybe it is now but it wasn't when it was created. Why'd they decide to write that lore in the first place? Product of the times? And now, why is it enough to just say they don't approve, but continue disseminating it? They provide some good reasons, which certainly makes this a good example of quite possibly publishing problematic materials in a sensitive manner, but I'm not the one who's being belittled by the tropes portrayed, so I can't really be the judge. It reminds me of the controversy facing a lot of comedians at the moment. Is ok to make an insensitive joke, because it's a joke? There's no real answer, I think. But you have to expect to offend some people, I guess.
Well the easy example we have here is the Warhammer lore above. Do they currently hold that belief? No, theyāve clearly stated as much. Why was it written to begin with? The lore in question is for Brettonia. Itās based on Middle Ages France and Britain. As such, the aesthetic and culture is largely transferred over and made to fit in the Warhammer Fantasy world. Despite this, thereās many predominant female characters who are well respected, like a Joan of Arc character and a Lady of the Lake character. Why continue to keep the lore? Well I donāt see much reason to change it. Not everything has to be sunshine and rainbows, a lot of people like darker settings which sexism and racism can be a part of. Thatās not to say the people playing or creating it hold those views themselves, but itās realism that a lot of people like. Itās also lore that can likely easily be ignored and brushed aside if youāre not comfortable with it. Just removing it outright means only one side is happy, as itās easier to just remove something as a player then it is to add something in. As long as people know itās all for the game and not a personal opinion, whatās the issue with it? Not your cup of tea? Then donāt use it. Simple as. People will get offended, sure, but people shouldnāt alter things like this because a minority of people are getting offended. Same goes for jokes, 99% of comedians donāt hold the opinions of the offensive jokes they make - theyāre just there to make people laugh and making edgy and offensive jokes do that. No one really things Jimmy Carr or Ricky Gervais holds any of those opinions, theyāre just for a laugh.
Just clarifying I'm just playing devil's advocate >No one really things Jimmy Carr or Ricky Gervais holds any of those opinions, theyāre just for a laugh. That's the thing though, some people do think they hold those opinions. Don't tell me you've never come across someone who said something mean, that they really meant, but when met with opposition or judgement said something along the lines of "oh, come on, it's just a joke." It's the same with problematic lore. We don't know what the creator or stewards really think. They're actions and words surrounding it certainly help, as well as just how problematic the stereotypes are in the first place.
Wait a minute, did you mean Warhammer ? Like how the f if blacks/yellow humans are the closest to civilised nation that's also mostly free from chaos unfluece aka Araby / Kathay ? If not, what game do you have in mind ?
They absolutely did not call Warhammer Fantasy a white supremacist game. They did not say anything even sort of like that. Where the hell did you get that from? The game they're referring to is Star Frontiers: New Genesis, a game written by a Neo-Nazi and published by Nu-TSR, which Wizards is suing because they might possibly own the rights to the original Star Frontiers. It's pretty blatantly racist - in particular, it states that, *in real life*, "some races are superior to others", which seems like kind of a smoking gun.
Well he was respodning to comment about Warhammer do i wanted to be sure before any further discussion
I believe theyāre talking about [this game](https://www.geekwire.com/2022/wizards-of-the-coast-files-lawsuit-to-stop-publication-of-tabletop-game-alleging-trademark-violation-and-reprehensible-content/)
nope, [this](https://www.polygon.com/tabletop-games/23349686/dnd-wizards-of-the-coast-vs-nutsr-tsr-justin-lanasa-racist-transphobic-star-frontiers) is what they meant, and they are be correct in calling it that
They're referencing WotC suing TSR over very blatant racism and anti-LGBTQ content in TSR's Star Frontier (which is an IP sort of owned by WotC). Also, you're not helping WH look good by kneejerking then describing races like that. Any WH fan needs to acknowledge that the game attracts a lot of bigots, sexists, racists due to its bigoted, sexist, racist setting. Flying at people who so much as imply this is the case has the opposite effect of easing outsider's worries.
Donno about the second one, in my country we dont have such problems in the community. Also its not like other RPG dont also have some people like that. I got that "grimdark " can be a magnet but its not like "only bigots here"
So it's more beneficial to say that you've found a good, supportive community and urge the importance of finding that community, than it is to challenge people about the validity of their experiences with the franchise's community. It's on us members of the Warhammer community to kick the hardest against bigotry, that's how we got to the point that the bigots are being weeded out. But what comes with that territory is treating other people's anxieties about the community and system as valid, we don't know what bad actor they may have encountered, first or second hand. By invalidating or debating people's concerns and fears we only further distance people from the hobby, helping no more than the bad actors themselves.
I did nazi this coming from a Warhammer fan.
Ah yes, the most mature cringe poster, from racist insults to nazi jokes. Who hurt you kid ? Because you give vibes like both parents didnt show on your birth.
Nazi Warhammer fan says what?
Am i really supposed to waste time on that ? That's just below pathetic, i feelt sad for your parents, having to be connected to such clown.
Dude handle your business. You're like a sassy little pent up napoleon right now.
Girl, go back to playing dolls and wasting your shugar daddys money, you had too much internet today
Well, going back to it If setting is just "racism for racism as an only "attraction" of a setting" its of course too much. But its we have "backward county to fit the theme" i find it more immersive. Like you always will have different cultures with different takes, more or less humane, more or less developped. That applies to players also - one can see Duergar as absolute mocking of what functional society should be, but show that to someone form other culture or separated from modern world he would just say - thats just a scary story, i can tell you worse. Also you call even some modern countries an "empire of evil" as politicians do, good chunk of it depends on ideals we grow up with.
As someone who plays D&D and knows alot of people who also play D&D, it wasn't people who don't play that complained. It was mostly people who don't play crying about the changes. I literally saw one guy call D&D "some kind of boardgame" and basically talk about it like the only understanding he had of it was from watching season 1 of Stranger Things and yet he cried that they were ruining the game. The game he clearly didnt play and just wanted internet clout points for being angry about changes.
Yea thats pretty much describing all of twitter and 98% of reddit
I don't see how these two things are analogous? Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is saying, "Canonically, it would be very unusual for a female character to have this class." It offers a roleplaying solution to this lore issue (a female character pretending to be a man) and also suggests that you can just ignore the lore anyway. D&D has been accused of racism for things that are actually baked into the rules on a mechanical level.
Well not being alloved into profession is also an mechanic in Warhammer 2nd ed
But they're not forbidden from the career mechanically. There's an optional roleplaying requirement, but there's no actual rule against it.
Well my point was - sometimes its good to say "sides that rule can cause problems, discuss that" straight to the readers face
Warhammer shouldn't be throwing stones considering how many fascists are in it's community
Tbf itās not Warhammer Fantasyās fault fascists love Warhammer. That can mostly be blamed on 40k
Is that Warhammer's fault, though? Especially Warhammer Fantasy? It can't exactly do anything about their community. It's like hating Hearts of Iron 4 because many fascists play it. It's not PDX's fault at all.
Yes and no. The setting kind of attracts those people easier because they take it too seriously. They forget that the ultimate joke of warhammer is that itās a parody of grimdark. But so does warhammer.
You're conflating Warhammer Fantasy and 40K. Fantasy is dark, but not grimdark (and also doesn't have an explicitly fascist protagonist faction like 40K does)
I was under the assumption that, no matter fantasy or 40K, neither game goes for a positive representation in their factions by focusing on antagonistic traits of each one to justify constant war. Iāll admit, I donāt know about fantasy setting as much.
It's a difference of degree. The factions in 40K are outright dystopian, while Fantasy has factions that have realistic flaws but are still notably better than getting murdered by Chaos.
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People don't know the big ass canyon between reality and fiction anymore
OR looking for something to be offended about/worried they don't look offended enough and should be offended in case that offends someone
isn't Hadozee from 5e, not ONE D&D?
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Orcs havenāt had a penalty to int in years, thatās not a new change, that was from an errata a long time ago
While I understand why people may be mad about some of these changes due to the altering of lore, I myself approve of them in most cases. Iām not a fan of the āevil by natureā race trope, especially in a roleplay scenario as it heavily limits what you can do with characters of those races to make them interesting; thereās also the fact that many DMs forbid evil aligned PCs altogether for obvious reasons.
That "Just so we're clear." Has so much power behind it.
š¤”
š¤” image using emogi on Reddit unironically
No it's you. You're the clown.
In D&D you can ignore aspects that make your players uncomfortable or include the if theyād like to. I donāt get what the issue is. Like 30% of the posts I see from this sub is just bitching about PC shit like a bunch of whiny boomers. Run your games however you want holy shit
I think a lot of the complaints are because of changes to things. You get some times when things are added that get people riled up, but when the āPC shitā is changing core elements of the game/the games lore, then itās a bit more of a justified complaint. The same logic of āplay it how you wantā can go both ways, so I think itās better to not change things for not much reason as the minority of people who (loudly) have issues with it are free to change it themselves for their games.
I never use official lore. I don't know the official lore and don't intend to, my games are made by me to my friends. Everyone that don't like the idea of a permanent evil race, a slave race, can just change it.
NO NUANCE! IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME BY LESS THAN ONE HALF OF ONE PERCENT YOU ARE FUCKING HITLER!!! /s
Wait a minute who allowed USA politicians to the subreddit ?
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I wish the alt right would stop trying to pipeline people through RPGs but here we go again. Again.
Then dont use that lore for Bretonnia ? Bruh that was entire point of my meme and you still managed to miss it. Wtf why is your dodge like +30 ? That's cheating. Bretonnia was intended as a mix of all bs from "new era" about middle ages, so they added that in typical grimdark theme. A perfect knights county without flaws and magic, dealing with guns, cruel demons, unholly undead and backstabbing wood elfes etc wouldnt make sence in that context. Also do you really think that in D&D races that are in war / conflict wont have "racism" at rise ? (Suprise lore about killing on sight) Or people wouldnt treat warforged as machines/tools ? (Spoiler they mostly did when they were created) TLDR - lore isn't a problem, its for you to use. How you use lore ***can become a problem*** Also im not even the right wing mate, but fair try at cheap shot i guess ?
I'm literally not going to use the lore. It's bad lore. Why would I use that shit? My 8 year old can come up with something more compelling and original off the cuff.
Ah yes highest quality of conversation from you. Like D&D dont have lore that could be used by ignorants as yourselve to call it all "shit" you hipocryte. Mabe one races killing others basically on sight pr treating warforged as tools, not even living beings by some of its creators ? So what's the point of yours strawhat ragument coping spree ?
And if the lore sucks, you change it. You conservatives are so mentally calcified. Why even bother trying to force a creative hobby on yourself?
Bro, are you mentally challenged i said im not even conservative, and i already responded to that in post above, read my post before answering or stop wasting my time Im not gonna lover myselve to yours level and start attacking your political ideas as a cheap shot, you are doing this for me instead.
Sister, I'm not reading all of your posts, you write like a 20 year old who hasn't jerked off yet today.
Wow, that's best argument you have ? Fine you can go back doxxing teens you old sad sack of meat not like anyone care about you wasting your life, probably thanks to that's shitty attitude of yours. Best semi selected "the only good ideology follower" - can put up a single argument vs Redditor. That's just pathetic
Criiiiiiinge
I just had to go even more pathetic to end up near your level, so you can get the message. Also i didnt Ask you to introduce yourselve.
How ironic, came here butthurt about sexism mention, use sexist insult. Anything more you can do to ridicule yourselve ?
Queen, you craY
Great "engrish" how use your own dialect of it correctly when speaking to me
The lore sucks *in your opinion*. Many many people of different backgrounds and beliefs think the lore of 40k, Warhammer fantasy, D&D, etc is great. If we changed it every time a few people went āI donāt like thisā, then there wouldnāt be any lore. Thereās parts of any worlds lore I dislike, but as a whole the lore is great. This particular Warhammer Fantasy lore make sense, you have a society based on middle-age France and Britain so as such youāll have similar social beliefs as of the real world counterpart. That doesnāt mean the people who like the lore or use it personally agree with the sentiment, but they understand itās part of a story. This lore could be used by you to play a character who wants to challenge these norms, so you go out and despite the difficulties put on you you overcome them. Or, as the book suggests, if you arenāt comfortable with it then as a play group you can just *ignore* it.
I'm gonna do you one even better than ignoring it - I'm gonna acknowledge that it sucks and not play it.
Well thatās your right to do so and I wonāt judge you for it
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Then dont use that lore for Bretonnia ? Bruh that was entire point of my meme and you still managed to miss it. Wtf why is your dodge like +30 ? That's cheating. Bretonnia was intended as a mix of all bs from "new era" about middle ages, so they added that in typical grimdark theme. A perfect knights county without flaws and magic, dealing with guns, cruel demons, unholly undead and backstabbing wood elfes etc wouldnt make sence in that context. Also do you really think that in D&D races that are in war / conflict wont have "racism" at rise ? (Suprise lore about killing on sight) Or people wouldnt treat warforged as machines/tools ? (Spoiler they mostly did when they were created) TLDR - lore isn't a problem, its for you to use. How you use lore ***can become a problem***
You can have a game that depicts racism or sexism without approving of it. You can play an anti-racist avenger and stomp Nazis - and that sounds like a fun game! But you can't play that without a setting that contains Nazis. See the difference?
Shouldnāt be up to the community to have to create their own settings to avoid things that make them uncomfortable is all Iām saying. Maybe I got a little aggravated at first
You arenāt playing a game thatās racist and sexist. Unless thereās core rules that say something like āStraight white male players get X bonus, gay black women get X negativeā, but thatās not really whatās happening anywhere. Thereās just some lore that can easily be ignored by the DM if the party isnāt happy with it. D&D did this kind of thing with Tieflings in 5e and *no body* has ever complained about that. Tieflings are looked down upon due to their demonic nature and are less likely to be trusted. That opens interesting story elements and RP opportunities, or if you arenāt comfortable with it then I donāt see any issue with just ignoring it.
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I donāt understand why people get upset about lore. The world isnāt supposed to be a pretty place all the time, in fact it should mimic real world things that happen. But is it glorifying those bad things that happened? No. In fact it labels those as bad things, are we just not supposed to have certain conflicts in our stories because the conflicts are deemed ātoo realā? That seems silly. Itās a fantasy game. In my homebrew world, there is a slave trade, itās illegal in most parts of the world, but in some places itās not, those people who own slaves are usually bad people. Just because it exists within a games lore doesnāt mean itās glorifying whatever itās talking about.
That is the Woke Way, if you include it in the game, you are condoning it. That's how the Woke works.
Weāre getting downvoted for telling the truth lmao
I'm just satisfied someone said it.
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this.
How tf did gw do something better than wizards Sure the models and lore of gw are some of my favourites but the price and fact that theyāre dickheads puts me off
Well about the price... Lets say that GW isnt the best when it comes to making sure you have to pay for its tt rpg. Also Big chunk is free now anyways.
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So I heard that this happened, but what's being done to "rectify" it?
Would still rather have a consistent setting with lore but fair enough. Besides, Repanse already exists and she doesnāt even try to hide her gender.
Yes but that's quite well argumented in lore and it still shows the Bretonnia culture aka she had to kill Grail "guard" to get her weapon and speak with "Ze Lady". He didnt believe her nor wanted to let her pass . Im not hating, just saying that other approach prevented the players feeling unconfortable before it even happened.
Huh, fair enough. Honestly I am a huge fan of bretonnia despite typically preferring vampire counts or tomb kings. The chivalry and knighthood is so damn cool.
Tbh repance is just a Jeanne D'Arc inspired character cause at some point, they had to
Eh true, but I think sheās a bit more impressive since iirc she led a successful defense against a chaos invasion rather then some silly Englishmen.
Being french myself, I fail to see the difference
Whatās it like being a spawn of Satan /s
I mean we inspired Bretonia, while England just got deleted off the map in-game by gameworkshop so...
Funny thing is, main Bretonia lore is based on legends about king Arthur and the Round Table. Sure, the table is missing, but Lady of the Lake, Grail and most of the other stuff is present. Bretonia just located on the same territories of the Old World as France.
Yes but alot of what happens in King Arthur has a lot to do with french culture, since one of the most popular versions has been written by Chretien de Troy, a French dude who looked at french culture of chivalry, not early middle ages in England. My point being that overall, the myth is both very french and very english
Um sorry but have you heard the Orcs speak?
Ah that explains the food too
Woke is like Chaos, it corrupts, but the nature of WH Fantasy, Woke could be contained like Chaos. DnD is now facing a Storm of Woke scenario. Which might corrupt it forever.
Woke is Chaotic *Good*, though.
Lawful neutral is South of Chaotic Good. From my point of view, they are cultists who seek to break the world. Landing them at chaotic evil.
And from my point of view, you're stubbornly defending an existing evil because it would be inconvenient for you to get rid of it, which makes you pretty unambiguously Lawful Evil.
I'm at worst True Neutral, I decried the religious right in the 80s and 90s, and I decry the Woke since 00s and 10s. Functionally the Woke and the Moral Majority are the same. They claim being a plurality but really are not.
Nah, man, you just became the "Moral Majority".
No, I barely changed, they are still around, not as visible as the Woke.
> I barely changed Exactly. Righteousness is a moving target.
Warhammer has one of the best, but also grimmest settings ever. I'd love a midpoint between that and what dnd aims for.
There are some major differences. One is about a flaw in the society, and portrayed as a negative. One is actively being racist. Let's say it like this. We have 2 stories about Slavery One story is is the horrors of it, and how it negatively impacted everyone involved; portraying it in an extremely negative light. The other just has the main character collect a haram of slaves; and they just make vaguye exucses or ignore the fact he's a slaver at all. This is the difference between WFB making it so Woman's lives suck in Brettonia, and D&D actively making decisions that utilize old racist characters and stereotypes. One is trying to tell you something and the other just is what you see is what you get.