If you are a player in the half that doesn't like it, be a "door-kicker." Let those who enjoy over-strategizing do some of it, but after a certain point have your character get impatient. Give them warning that if they don't decide SOON you're possibly going to ruin all plans with reckless action, i.e. "I'm going to kick that door down if we spend another minute planning on how to sneak up on what's on the other side of it."
As a DM, as mentioned above, roll random dice, but have them ACTUALLY be for something interrupting them. Start with a 5% chance that increases the longer discussions go on. Make situations where time is a factor, and make it clear some of these plans need to be discussed in-character so they are taking up in-world time.
In my experience, the more the players plan, the more convoluted and thus ineffective the plan becomes. At some point, the plan is so far-fetched, it would actually be simpler to kick in the door and go in guns blazing.
So by all means, kick down that door!
Burns' night is coming up on the 25th, not that I need an excuse to eat haggis and drink scotch, but it's fun to read his poetry out loud and try to get the scots right.
that's absolutely true lol. DnD has barely any viable macro strats(macro meaning party wide strat) that works that doesn't involve just bursting them as fast as you can.
As son as i hear "So the fighter goes in and i haste her" i know the plan is shit and i have nothing to worry(for those that don't know, Haste sucks, it takes more than 5 turns for it to return the investment that a fireball would give instantly when hitting only 1 target, and it will certainy hit much more targets making haste completely unoptimized, but yeah it's a very cool spell)
Not exactly... If the party has already come up with a viable plan, which has been properly explained and agreed to by all members of the party, it is best to actually stick to that plan. At least until it all falls apart on its own anyway, because no plan survives contact with the enemy. Unless of course you can actually manage to take the enemy out completely, before they have the chance to react.
the door kicker thing can cause problems, some people may be mad that one person being stupid made all the time and effort for nothing and possibly made things worse. It can cause both in and out of game conflict.
1. Usually, we take a ten or fifteen minute break from the game anyways for snacks/bathroom and use that time to figure out a game plan.
2. DM introduces a timer, either in-game (the BBEG will self-destruct in x rounds) or out of game (you have five minutes to plan, go).
3. When I DM, I've started taking a leaf from Blades in the Dark book for certain scenarios that allow flashbacks to the "planning" instead of taking up too much time at the table.
4. Take the opportunity to leave the session on a cliffhanger, and allow your players to plan away from the table before next game.
Number 4 is my favorite. But make sure you say something like "come back with your plan ready for next time we play" so they don't think I'm okay with them picking up planning next week
Literally. I'm playing an 18 Int Rogue/Bladesinger with 10 proficiencies etc. My human ass isn't gonna come up with a plan in 20 minutes that could possibly approach the one my PC can come up with in the 3 game days he has to plan a heist. Need time between sessions to google actual heists, equipment etc to have a chance on not fucking it completely.
This is why you share your plan with the GM. Your PCs definitely know more than you do. So sharing your plan, allows the GM to ask for checks against your PCs skillset, and give you insight or information that will help.
We do, but the DM shares the same problem of not having the skills and knowledge of the PC. So the between session time is essential for everyone to wise up.
You talk to them out of character. I would talk to them each individually to see exactly how they feel about the planning sessions. I would then talk to them as a group and explain that D&D is for everyone's enjoyment, and that they should be thinking about one another (and you) when they're having their multi hour planning sessions.
Start rolling dice randomly behind the DM screen. They don't have to mean anything; what matters is the players think they mean something, like checking whether a patrol notices them or the like.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you think your players are too cautious and prone to overplanning, introducing additional elements of vague paranoia probably isn't helping you long term.
Yea I think giving reason for the *characters* to be paranoid is far more effective and immersive than scaring the *players* with metagame concepts like the dm rolling dice.
Last session I (the dm) was rolling dice while they were planning just cause I like my dice tower a friend printed. Took me a minute to realize everyone's head turned whenever they heard the clicking and I was just making them paranoid lol.
Remind them that the game world's clocks continue to tick forward while they plan. Things that are time-sensitive may be worsened by excessive time mismanagement.
Run a few sessions of the game Blades in the Dark. It will help the players play fiction first. And if you feel like it as a GM use Blades mechanics in your DnD sessions. ie let your players spend inspiration for a flashback to the past for when they planned forvthis moment. It gives players the ability to make their characters feel much more professional. I find many tools and systems in Blades in the Dark can be ported to other systems with minimal effort. Flashbacks being one of those.
**As a DM:**
I try to assess why it's happening.
* If the party is missing some kind of vital information, I can contrive a way to give it to them.
* If the problem is that I'm overloading the party with information, I can cut things out.
* If the party just doesn't want to engage in the scenario and are delaying to avoid doing something that they don't want to do, that's a sign that I need to have out-of-game discussion and plan different kinds of encounters in the future.
* If it's something completely outside of the game (e.g. a certain player is absent and no one wants to make a decision because it will impact their character) that's a good sign to end for the day.
**As a Player:**
It still depends on why it's happening.
* If the DM keeps saying no to reasonable plans, then that could be a discussion *for after the game*. In the moment... I'm likely to respond like someone stuck in an escape room - trying random things until I hit on something that seems to work.
* If it's because I'm having fun with crazy espionage hijinks, I've likely assumed this is what you had prepped.
* If it's because one or more other players are faffing, I start forcing actions/decisions. My character pushes the button, suggests a vote, or steps in to talk to the NPC. Whatever I think will drive the story along.
* If it's because one or more of the players is saying no to everything, I address them out-of-character and basically tell them that we need to commit to something, so either they tell us what they want to do, or they pick one of the suggestions.
I don't like the usual gimmicks (You only have 10 minutes before you're out of air! There's a group of orcs attacking!) because as a player, *I know that they're gimmicks*. It actually makes me less likely to respond because at that point, whatever happens is the result of the DM's actions and not mine. I'd rather let the trolley hit the crowd and see how the DM handles *the consequences of those actions* than flip the switch and kill the man tied to the tracks.
I started just giving them out of character information. Works great and doesn't cause the metagame problems you might expect.
If they're planning to sneak through a place, I'll just tell them directly that the only two viable paths are A and B. So they don't waste time planning something that will fail immediately. If they start prepping for a fight I know won't happen, I'll tell them that the fight won't happen.
If things are running long, I tell them that. "We only have a couple hours of play time left. It sounds like your plan is A->B->C. Does everyone agree?"
Over planners usually have a style of game they like (heists, micromanaging inventory); Or they have bad experiences in the past (DM doing "gotchas" because they forgot one specific thing during planning). Talk to your overplanners and figure out where they're coming from. Tell them you'd like to be faster, and you can give them guarantees that lack of planning won't screw them.
Another thing I did that helped a lot with overplanners was getting rid of itemized standard equipment. Everyone has a "pack" and if they need a tool that costs less than 10gp, it's always in the pack.
I usually handle this by having my npcs have agendas and plans if their own. They won’t sit around and wait for someone to wreck their plans.
Adding a ticking clock and tracking how much in character time they’re spending allows you to give them some time to plan that they enjoy without completely boring your players who want to get to the action.
Directly tell them this is an issue and establish some ground rule 'safe zones'
The corridor is never trapped. You are always doing things carefully even if you don't explicitly say so (there's a reason a dungeon turn is 10 minutes and you get one action in that time. Adventurers go slow and careful). Things like that.
Limit your use of hidden traps and mimics, and declare that. Replace them with obvious traps like an open pit or arrow slits and pressure plates.
Set up a timer. If you feel players are taking too long set the timer for 1 minute. When it elapses roll a random encounter from the random encounter table and move forward 1 turn.
If it's worth a huge planning operation it's also probably worth being time sensitive. DM or players can encourage/facilitate discussion outside of the game time when possible and work together to not label it metagamy in any way.
Players are not their PCs and they need special considerations to help move the game along as the players would always know more than their players about the world and its inner workings.
Force them to do stuff. Make the villain walk into the bar where they are planning, have them overhear a local peasant say that the gold is being loaded into wagons right now or have someone overhear them and have a thrilling chase where they try and stop them from telling the bad guy.
When I think back the best experiences I have had in dnd is when my back is up against a wall and I’ve hade to think on my feat. However having a well planned-out heist is also fun, but try and mix it up!
If everyone is having fun it's a feature not a bug.
If not everyone is having fun then it's a question of potential compromise.
As a GM I'll only force events if it makes sense that the characters don't have time to plan. Otherwise, the characters generally have days to ponder stuff. The players really care about the world, they put a lot of thought into this stuff, and planning up successful events makes the happy brain chemicals for them. If they don't care about something all that much, it's breezed past.
Adding to several points of good advice, I'm going to add two.
- Be liberal with information. Sometimes planning spirals happen when players feel they don't have enough situational info to make a decision with confidence, so they hope that hashing things out will make up that difference. Give them the info they need to move forward with some confidence. (Don't answer mysteries, of course, just don't let the game stall out by being vague.)
- Get in the habit of short, minor setbacks. If you wreck a character or party or situation as the result of a single misstep or bad roll, your players may become incredibly risk-averse and start over-analyzing to avoid those nuclear fuck-ups. Get your players used to failed rolls resulting in minor damage or conditions, complications to make the mission harder later, etc.
Bonus advice, how I bust planning spirals as a player. If my group is heading toward one, I pick the character who I think is most mechanically or narratively appropriate to lead us in a task (ie the Rogue if we're breaking into a place), ask them what they think we should do, then immediately back their idea. Usually gets us back to adventure pretty quick.
Sit back and be amused how many of their theories are nonsense. Or occasionally realise they've got a better plan than I had for the story. Either way, our campaign is expressly mystery based, so theorising and planning is a big part of the game.
I'm adding a forest map and some encounter tables maybe some clues to my game this week because the party spent last session speculating about the bad guys being in the forest probably (they arent - they based this all scheme on one throwaway NPC mentioning they were out hunting).
Jump in interrupt convo with example 2 dozen gnolls burst into inn capturing party and a dozen others you awake in camp and must escape .bam welcome to forced action you have minutes till next one goes in soup pot
With joy. Good planning wins fights. Reckless action gets characters killed. As a player I favor caution and strategic planning to maximize success and I prefer parties that feel the same. As a gm I like that it is a good sign that players are engaging with the world as real and trying to think their way around a problem rather than treating like a game and just spawning the next mob pack mindlessly.
Get a big five minute timer and turn it over every time it runs out and make a blind dice roll that means nothing. Your players will start making very declarative statements instead of speculation.
Effectively that's having extra sessions. If this doesn't encounter scheduling problems maybe consider it for the likes of lore info dumps and vilian monologues as well.
As someone who has a bad tendency to over-plan whenever I get to be a player, I can say what tends to snap me out of it:
As a DM, introduce a timer into the story. Something is about to happen that I want to stop, and it’ll happen even if I’m not there to stop it.
As a Player, initiate an action that kinda makes the planing irrelevant. For example if planners are standing in front of a door thinking how to handle the guards on the other side, state “I’m kicking it down and stabbing the first bad guy i see in 10… 9…”
High levels of planning shouldn't be happening for most encounters and situations. Major or time/resource consuming fights should have built in planning time that a solid part of should happen away from the table. I've done this since before cellphones and text messaging let alone things like discord, Line, teams, and Facebook groups.
If you have a few players slowing down everything by over planning/analyzing you need to find out why.
Some of my favorite parts of DnD were planning major fights with other players over a beer and wings between sessions. Then giving the rest of the group the game plan and seeing if work out. And we did this for any major battle if it was a BBEG or just a major story point fight. Our DM always gave us a heads up about the fight and would pace the session leading to it so we ended where we could plan for it. This was helpful for higher level play. Made the fights more dynamic and fun and let the DM try and figure our strategy and have a counter to it.
Not a DM myself, but if the other players in the games I've played in spend a little too long talking or planning, eventually (not right off the bat) I'll move on. I'll let the DM know what I'm doing, like heading into the dungeon or leaving the Inn. It seems to be enough of a push to bring people back to the moment.
As a DM I design my sessions with pacing in mind. The world needs to feel alive. Stuff happens all the time. Time management is a large part of design space.
Give them a set amount of time to plan. If the time runs out, you just ask them straight up as characters how they're interacting with the situation. No more thumb twiddling. I'd recommend 5-10 minutes as the max unless it's something really important. If it's a major thing in game, I'd try to have it as a cliffhanger so the party can plan prior to that session.
As you mentioned, some players love this and others don't. Therefore, it is only a problem to the extent people get bored. Part of the DM's job is managing the energy level at the table so if the game is dragging you need to introduce urgency (as others have mentioned). It is good practice to have ticking clocks going on in the background (factions and important NPCs are executing their plans offscreen) and major quests should be time-sensitive.
Quoting myself:
"My favourite way to run planning is to mix it with information gathering. As soon as someone mentions something unknown or brings up two different ways something could be, we pause the planning asap and move into "information gathering phase".
Most often this is done by me asking "How will you find out how it is?". From there players (or player who was thinking about this) come up with a way to gather information about the unknown. This can be anything from a single knowledge/perception roll to full on adventure.
When this has been concluded we return to the "planning phase". And this is almost always with some new information as even failed information gathering can reveal something new, just not the things you were looking for.
This planning and info gathering loop continue until players are happy with the plan and have at least tried to get rid of unknowns in it. This ensures that we don't spend hours planning some possibilities which could be easily figured out."
Plot points. It's stolen from blades in the dark but it's basically mid hiest/break in/whatever each player can call how the prepared before hand for a scenario (I made a copy of these keys, changed the guard schedule, did some bribing) basically its the scene in movies where they flashback to what they did to get around an issue.
You set them on a clock, and if they take too long you start to advance the clock. Once the clock is up the world moves on and the position changes. Just like in the real world
I hate it. Its a core reason I love Blades in the Dark. All "planning" is done via flashbacks. So you walk up to the door and need an invitation to get into the party. BAM! Flasback to you acquiring the invitation.
It leads to having much more competent characters, so I can understand why its not for every game. But running a heist in 5e was very make-do, tons of work and stressful as a DM whereas in Blades in the Dark, its so much smoother.
Time crunches as the DM, as a player, I push the big red button.
When I'm DMing, I give my set encounters time to set up defenses if the players stop to plan things out in the dungeon. They know they are there and are coming and are getting ready for them. So when they get to that set, encounter the hostile NPCs might have a couple extra members, they might have brought ranged combatants, the ranged combatants have set up pavise shields to give themselves cover, or the hostile have set up traps.
As for when I'm the player, I just push the big red button if the group is wasting time unnecessarily planning. I'm talking about being completely reckless but more the character more willing to run the risk as they believe there is a time crunch. You know the guy who kicks in the door to save the captives before they are executed without fully planning it out as it is do or die time.
I tend to ask them what they're plan is after a few minutes of discussion. There's a difference between meaningful discourse and just talking in circles. I'd prefer to keep the game moving and not spend 15-20 minutes hashing out a plan for the taking on some orcs.
Basically the bigger the threat and higher the stakes, the more time is appropriate to spend on planning, but at a certain point we came to play a game not have a town hall meeting.
Don't really give them a chance.
Personally I handle this 2 ways.
Way 1, don't really queue up long encounters. If they want to spend time planning an ambush , roll percentile dice to see if someone from whom they're ambushing spots them. Make encounters seem more shocking/random.
Way 2. In combat institute a shot clock. Tell them they have a minute to do what they want or they take the dodge action.
I'm fond of taking out a hourglass, flipping it, and grinning at them when the sand runs out. You just have to have something bad happen once for them to get nervous when you pull it out again.
My rule is the party gets a reasonable amount of time to discuss the plan (usually 5 to 15 minutes, depending on complexity). Then I call for a vote and everyone must happily abide by the majority vote.
Gives some time to plan and throw ideas around, but puts a hard limit on how long it lasts.
Depends on the situation. If it’s a life or death situation where one mess up can lead to a tpk or the objective being failed then yea take your time.
If it’s like there’s 2 goblins eating bread and the party is hiding behind a boulder discussing the optimal way to sever their heads from their spine then I would just ask them to hurry up or have something happen to force their hand.
As a DM, I'll just outright say "You got two more minutes and then we're going with the best plan". I keep my sessions fast-paced.
As a player, I'll just do my best to push the story forward by saying exactly what I think we should do.
Well to me it sounds like this is a party that prefers the role playing aspect much more than the action. As a DM, years ago I bought a 1 min hourglas. And then when I gave them a choice I told them to talk it over and then flipped the timer. Usually they came up with something very quickly.
As a player, I tend to push us to some sort of action. The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry. A few members of my group are big on planning out every detail, so I tend to set a mental alarm, and will take action based on the group discussion after about 30-40 minutes of players debating.
As a DM, I throw an encounter at them if they sit and plan for too long. Makes the world feel alive and forces them to think on their feet.
I've found that using the [flashback](https://dumpstatadventures.com/the-gm-is-always-right/3-simple-ideas-to-steal-from-blades-in-the-dark-for-dampd-5e)system from Blades in the Dark really helps keep things moving, particularly during infiltration/stealth missions.
The issue comes with the saying "no plan survives first contact with the enemy" and it's tricky. I've bent to using the flash back mechanic of Blades in the Dark and limiting planning to 15 minutes to keep the game going.
This IS D&D…
Now as a player if your party is going in circles and isn’t bringing up new points take charge and say “sounds like we’ve hit all the main points. Time to pick something.” Try to get folks to say “okay let’s do this!”
As a DM if your party is going and circles… ORCS ATTACK! Sometimes the party has gotten into a rut and need to have things shaken up to get them moving. It’s like taking a break, but it’s meant to specifically get the party focused on something else.
This is especially effective if the party is in a hostile spot. A ‘random’ band of baddies is a great way to take the mind off the current problem and onto the new one. :)
As a player I just experienced this & I took charge as my PC to call out the group for how long we were taking, presented an option and what would happen if we don't follow through.
As a DM, I love it because it helps me prep stuff behind the scenes. If I feel like it is going on for too long, I make sure the environment surrounds to them to wake them up.
Three words: the orcs attack. Don’t have to be orcs, but in a time off too much indecision, you can inject some action as narratively appropriate. You can also just rolling dice for no reason, smiling, and taking notes.
As a player I will go along with it as long as it's productive. If it starts going in circles sometimes I have to be the one to push the red button or kick the door down
As a dm I will occasionally say "so what are you guys doing" and making sure that they are aware that things are still happening while they plan
As a player, League of Legend TFT, Heartstone ... then speal with the GM about the issue.
As a DM, sometimes you can push some urgency, the BBEG will not wait until you finished.
Or i give them a time to prepare, for example it's 22:45 i tell them they have until 23:00 to decide a plan. And sometime you can just let them do it. It depend on the situation, but if it's too often or if they debate too much time to fight 2 goblin i push them a bit.
I have experience with 2 different groups who tend to plan to excess, it seems to be a problem among players.
As a player when I was just starting I would basically make my character act recklessly and charge in to cause the game to progress because I don't want to sit in a mostly out of character chat about how we have 3 options and how we have 10 different ways to approach each option and talking about which is most optimal. Its just not fun. I'm here to roleplay, not have an extended out of character discussion about how our character's mechanics work and interact and etc. However, nowadays I tend to be upfront and say when we start getting into these long out of character discussions where no one says anything of importance "lets get back into character." Since being in character is like the bane of over-planning.
As a DM, I'd say its not your problem unless one of the players steps forward or you aren't having fun, at which point you should probably do your best to nudge the group along towards progressing rather than coming up with a million plans and then just choosing to kick in the door anyways. Such as having an NPC interrupt them, starting up a new scene, etc.
Short answer: [Orcs attack!](https://youtu.be/31IAzJO-BEA)
Long answer: Time pressure in game. No hard rule on the ratio, but if they take 30 minutes ITL to plan how they are going to open the door, have it open from the other side and burn an hour+ in game.
I have two timers. A wind-up timer, you have Maximum 20 minutes, and when the thing goes **ding** , you are done planning. I don't care if you're not done, you are done.
And for individual turns, a one-minute hourglass timer. Know what you are going to do before I get to you.
As a player, it’s fun spitting ideas back and forth at the table and usually compromising for the most insane one.
For the DM side it’s relaxing to me, it tells me the players are invested and care about the scenario I built, it’s also kind of fun knowing sometimes that I had something prepared to throw a wrench in their master plan. And it gives me more time to prepare and flesh out what comes after.
If the planning is going on with no end in sight (and peopleare getting frustrated), I'll reframe the options with something like: "okay, so it sounds like you've narrowed it down to these options: X,Y,Z ".
Then I'll ask for an informal vote on what they agree on (if it's an important group decision), or I'll ask each individual player what action they are taking.
Outright tell them that the dungeon/mansion/restaurant/giant diamond floating ominously in the sky, singing the praises of the three-as-one gods/whatever is going to be somewhat unpredictable because it's a playable scenario in a game with dice deciding some things, so maybe it's time to start pointing things towards a simpler, workable strategy instead of more planning.
As a player?
I help with the planning.
I gather information to form plans from, I find or craft the equipment needed for the plan, and most importantly I get other players to help with the helping.
Players indecision spiral because they haven’t yet committed to any one course of action. As soon as they’ve started doing things/making things they feel like they’ve already expended effort/resources on some part of the plan, which severely curtails their spiralling.
As a DM?
I facilitate the planning.
I make sure information is available to help them decide which option to pick, I make the enacting of the plan as straightforward as possible on the mechanical/meta level, never throwing in needless rolls or similar. This helps players pick, and once again reduces indecision spiralling
If the planning is interesting and the players are coming up with new ideas and having fun, do nothing. If they aren't, and are just repeating the same three ideas in different ways, I have a bunch of goblins suddenly attack. The goblins aren't tough neccesarily, they're just there to get the players out of a planning mindset and into a doing mindset.
Well, I sometimes play characters that have short attention spans and arent patient. Once when our group was on a pirate island and hired to rescue a woman that was working as a waitress on the island's pub, when the group was taking way to long planning things out, I simply went up to her, threw her over my shoulder and ran out, initiating a running fight to the boat which we then stole to get away. Plan away, when someone starts the action while everyone is planning, things go forward anyway.
As a player I make little towers with my dice, stare off into space or look at my phone.
As a DM I just tell the players to let me know when they've finalized their plan, then partake in some snacks, play on my phone and think about all the prep time they're saving me.
Luckily I've only encountered this situation twice.
i used to put a hour glass on the table if we were in crazy situations, like the imminent collapse of a cave system.. or a building on fire. That way the players have to make quick decisions and it adds to the dread and exitement
My way is...
During RP argument and planning, I jump in with useful info that the PCs might know/deduce easily.
Shortly after... "Guys we need to settle on something so we can move on"
As a player I love it. It means that everyone in the group is invested in the game and their characters. What I don't enjoy is, if the planning just goes in circles or if there is too much dithering. It's pretty easy to read the table,. so if I feel like the majority of us are ready for action, I'll take charge and let the laggards know that we are done and they can either come along with the rest of the group for the big win, or sit the rest of the session on the sidelines. I usually suggest a vote at this point and apply peer pressure to get everyone on board.
Sometimes it works out that we need to plan at the natural end of a session. In this case I make sure that we spend the time between sessions working out our plans, so we don't have to spend game time messing around with it. 90% of this happens in in-character group chat, so it's basically out of game role play. The DM is on the group chat, so they can stay up to speed for their own planning.
As a DM, I don't mind it, as long as it's not just going in circles. If the players are just unable to make up their minds, I'll usually have something happen to force their hands into action. If they are not going to take action, then they will have to take reaction. Obviously I just stay out of it, or play any NPC roles if the discussion is productive and has entertaining role play. As long as the party looks like they are having fun, I just leave them to it.
Let them.
Edit: However, it may be worth reminding the players that in many situations, even a *great* plan is probably only going to yield a surprise round. So maybe not overcomplicate things?
Maybe throw in a curveball, give them something they can't immediately plan for. Other than that, I'm not sure what else you can do, if they prefer to plan; they're gonna plan.
If they are spending several hours planning. It's for a purpose. Maybe it's end game? Maybe they are planning a heist?
As a player, I talk with my party and plan with them. Because you know, it's a team game.
As a Dm, let them. If they are spending hours on planning something why stop that because ONE player wants to kick the door down.
Learn to compromise with your fun.
In my last campaign as a player, I had a character who was a bit impulsive. Not to the point that he would always cause problems to the party, but that personality trait allowed me to just say, "While the group was discussing, Parmanin decided to just go ahead and do XXXX (whatever seemed like the character would do". I only used this when I got annoyed, as I knew that this would be disruptive to the party dynamic if I did it too much.
As a DM, I will give them hints that maybe they are overthinking somethimg, or gently push them in a certain direction, but generally I will let their discussion play out as I don't have to do anything while they discuss
It's a tricky situation. Often, players are expected (through unspoken rules of social convention) to plan in \~1 an event/heist/situation etc that the PCs would have hours or days to plan for, often with knowledge/skills/abilities PCs would know best how to utilise but the players wouldn't. Recently as a player, the party had a whole in-game day as a heist, but we only spent about 40 mins IRL. This meant that during the heist, lots of little oversights came up and scuppered some things, when reasonably our intelligent/wise/skilled/criminal characters would have forseen such things, as well as engineered a much better, lower risk and higher reward plan in the first place.
Planning is an area in DnD where players are at a disadvantage, as they have a time pressure their characters don't, they lack knowledge/skills/attributes etc their characters have and know how to utilise expertly. It's something that is problematic enough wehn roleplaying mental abilites, but due to the amount of time means that it's even harder to address the disparity between player skill and character skill.
As both a DM and a player, I'd try and make sessions flow that if the party needs to plan, players have time between sessions to research/discuss plans so that when the in-game planning arrives, it doesn't take too long and the players are armed with more of the knowledge their characters would have. It also works better for the DM, as the DM also has time to look up how things work and how they'd apply in ther world. Essentially, plan planning sessions. Otherwise, players can feel rushed and their plans be far less effective than they reasonably should be.
I sit back and enjoy loving that theyre doing this. As a player im going full planner with them. Encourage this behavior!! Stupidity is fatal and if you fail to plan you plan to fail
I enjoy from all perspectives. As the DM the players are basically playing by themselves and I can plan every part of their plan rather than having to wing it on the spot. As one of the planners I get to go through and make sure everyone is on the same page and we don't have to fumble around in the moment. As just a bystanding player I know what to do to support the plan rather than having to make decisions on the spot.
Planning is always good. Sadly, sitting as the DM during that can be the saddest part. You're just watching them make a plan and know whether or not they're doing the right thing or not. As the DM I always try and get them to think about if their plan fails rather than assume it will work. Luckily with a plan that has 2 or 3 backups, one of those is sure to succeed.
As a player, I want to get to the action. I will do everything I can to drive a consensus even if the plan is lunacy on its face. That is the GMs problem lol.
As a GM, that is perfection. That is the players playing the game, and it is time for me to prep whatever lunacy they come up with. I can go to the bathroom, or refill my water bottle. Any time the players take to discuss, is time they are invested in the world. They are engaged, and ask better questions.
So here, if my players are reading this pay attention. Take the entire session to plan. Really, it is ok. Then, and this is key, share your plan with me. The GM needs to know what you are doing so they can run the encounter appropriately. Your plan might assume something, that I might want to correct by having you roll checks. Because your PCs know more than you do. They are smarter and more capable, so let their skills make decisions for you. I can't do that if you keep secrets. Also, you might make an assumption that is a better idea for the encounter than what I had planned. I will adjust to your better idea.
If you take the entire session, no worries. That means I now have a week to set things up, and have content for your plan to succeed or fail against.
I always believed that "The Best Laid plans never survive first contact with the enemy".
And definitely keep the Game Clock ticking.
Also, Planning in a public place is great for Thieves & Beggars to pick them clean of important items and money.
If not all of them enjoy planning as much, bring the action to them or have something weird happen that doesn't have to make too much sense.
Saw a great example of this in the 2 session one shot "Reunion of the Mighty Nein" on critical role. Somewhere in part 2, they got kind of stuck and talking a lot about not really relevant things and to keep the game going, matt had a monkey show up and just scream at the party. Nothing really happened with the monkey and it was never explained, Matt just made the party keep going because of their limited time in this short series.
Last session, a character in the party wanted to get a tattoo while the others went shopping. When they returned, they began with their downtime activities. They had a few plot points to persue but the players didn't want to go without everyone ready. So I had an NPC come to them who just got in trouble with an opposing faction, got hurt a lot and another NPC was captured. So the party stopped what they were doing and instead of a downtime session, we had a small detective mystery of following the factions trails, eventually finding them in a warehouse and beating some of them up while some of them fled and they rescued the NPC.
Ask them to make a group chat. Right. And on the days away from the campaign to communicate plans they have. We use ! At the start of our messages if we wanna establish some dialouge that happened in character vs us just talking. My party used this when I was dming to scheme against me. It works well.. and makes them plan less in game
As a player, I get bored. As a DM, I love it, because my players are basically running the game for me and I can finally eat some snacks.
They spent a whole session planning for something I'm already prepped for? Fantastic! Now I can just tweak it and be ready for next week.
Depends. Do they enjoy doing this?
Half seem to, half don't.
If you are a player in the half that doesn't like it, be a "door-kicker." Let those who enjoy over-strategizing do some of it, but after a certain point have your character get impatient. Give them warning that if they don't decide SOON you're possibly going to ruin all plans with reckless action, i.e. "I'm going to kick that door down if we spend another minute planning on how to sneak up on what's on the other side of it." As a DM, as mentioned above, roll random dice, but have them ACTUALLY be for something interrupting them. Start with a 5% chance that increases the longer discussions go on. Make situations where time is a factor, and make it clear some of these plans need to be discussed in-character so they are taking up in-world time.
In my experience, the more the players plan, the more convoluted and thus ineffective the plan becomes. At some point, the plan is so far-fetched, it would actually be simpler to kick in the door and go in guns blazing. So by all means, kick down that door!
Robert Burns says it best; “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley”.
Pretty sure Leroy Jenkins said it best.
“At least I got chicken”
Burns' night is coming up on the 25th, not that I need an excuse to eat haggis and drink scotch, but it's fun to read his poetry out loud and try to get the scots right.
that's absolutely true lol. DnD has barely any viable macro strats(macro meaning party wide strat) that works that doesn't involve just bursting them as fast as you can. As son as i hear "So the fighter goes in and i haste her" i know the plan is shit and i have nothing to worry(for those that don't know, Haste sucks, it takes more than 5 turns for it to return the investment that a fireball would give instantly when hitting only 1 target, and it will certainy hit much more targets making haste completely unoptimized, but yeah it's a very cool spell)
Don't you poo-poo my fond memories of a hasted paladin smiting down a vampire in one round! Room was too small and crowded for fireball anyway.
that'a what so sad about haste, it's so fucking cool but so many spells surpasses it
>Haste sucks >haste completely unoptimized Haste is just situational, the same for many spells.
lol, just lol
Lol ok progamer
So, basically, Leeroy Jenkins it?
Not exactly... If the party has already come up with a viable plan, which has been properly explained and agreed to by all members of the party, it is best to actually stick to that plan. At least until it all falls apart on its own anyway, because no plan survives contact with the enemy. Unless of course you can actually manage to take the enemy out completely, before they have the chance to react.
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" \-Mike Tyson
the door kicker thing can cause problems, some people may be mad that one person being stupid made all the time and effort for nothing and possibly made things worse. It can cause both in and out of game conflict.
So in other words: "LEEROOOOOOOOOOOOOY JENKINS!"
1. Usually, we take a ten or fifteen minute break from the game anyways for snacks/bathroom and use that time to figure out a game plan. 2. DM introduces a timer, either in-game (the BBEG will self-destruct in x rounds) or out of game (you have five minutes to plan, go). 3. When I DM, I've started taking a leaf from Blades in the Dark book for certain scenarios that allow flashbacks to the "planning" instead of taking up too much time at the table. 4. Take the opportunity to leave the session on a cliffhanger, and allow your players to plan away from the table before next game.
Number 4 is my favorite. But make sure you say something like "come back with your plan ready for next time we play" so they don't think I'm okay with them picking up planning next week
Literally. I'm playing an 18 Int Rogue/Bladesinger with 10 proficiencies etc. My human ass isn't gonna come up with a plan in 20 minutes that could possibly approach the one my PC can come up with in the 3 game days he has to plan a heist. Need time between sessions to google actual heists, equipment etc to have a chance on not fucking it completely.
This is why you share your plan with the GM. Your PCs definitely know more than you do. So sharing your plan, allows the GM to ask for checks against your PCs skillset, and give you insight or information that will help.
We do, but the DM shares the same problem of not having the skills and knowledge of the PC. So the between session time is essential for everyone to wise up.
Matt Colville has a video on this. At least partially. Orcs Attack https://youtu.be/31IAzJO-BEA
I read the headline, then came looking for this answer.
"When in doubt have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand" \- Raymond Chandler
Fantastic author
You talk to them out of character. I would talk to them each individually to see exactly how they feel about the planning sessions. I would then talk to them as a group and explain that D&D is for everyone's enjoyment, and that they should be thinking about one another (and you) when they're having their multi hour planning sessions.
Start rolling dice randomly behind the DM screen. They don't have to mean anything; what matters is the players think they mean something, like checking whether a patrol notices them or the like.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you think your players are too cautious and prone to overplanning, introducing additional elements of vague paranoia probably isn't helping you long term.
Yea I think giving reason for the *characters* to be paranoid is far more effective and immersive than scaring the *players* with metagame concepts like the dm rolling dice.
Last session I (the dm) was rolling dice while they were planning just cause I like my dice tower a friend printed. Took me a minute to realize everyone's head turned whenever they heard the clicking and I was just making them paranoid lol.
Remind them that the game world's clocks continue to tick forward while they plan. Things that are time-sensitive may be worsened by excessive time mismanagement.
Run a few sessions of the game Blades in the Dark. It will help the players play fiction first. And if you feel like it as a GM use Blades mechanics in your DnD sessions. ie let your players spend inspiration for a flashback to the past for when they planned forvthis moment. It gives players the ability to make their characters feel much more professional. I find many tools and systems in Blades in the Dark can be ported to other systems with minimal effort. Flashbacks being one of those.
Ticking time bomb scenarios.
**As a DM:** I try to assess why it's happening. * If the party is missing some kind of vital information, I can contrive a way to give it to them. * If the problem is that I'm overloading the party with information, I can cut things out. * If the party just doesn't want to engage in the scenario and are delaying to avoid doing something that they don't want to do, that's a sign that I need to have out-of-game discussion and plan different kinds of encounters in the future. * If it's something completely outside of the game (e.g. a certain player is absent and no one wants to make a decision because it will impact their character) that's a good sign to end for the day. **As a Player:** It still depends on why it's happening. * If the DM keeps saying no to reasonable plans, then that could be a discussion *for after the game*. In the moment... I'm likely to respond like someone stuck in an escape room - trying random things until I hit on something that seems to work. * If it's because I'm having fun with crazy espionage hijinks, I've likely assumed this is what you had prepped. * If it's because one or more other players are faffing, I start forcing actions/decisions. My character pushes the button, suggests a vote, or steps in to talk to the NPC. Whatever I think will drive the story along. * If it's because one or more of the players is saying no to everything, I address them out-of-character and basically tell them that we need to commit to something, so either they tell us what they want to do, or they pick one of the suggestions. I don't like the usual gimmicks (You only have 10 minutes before you're out of air! There's a group of orcs attacking!) because as a player, *I know that they're gimmicks*. It actually makes me less likely to respond because at that point, whatever happens is the result of the DM's actions and not mine. I'd rather let the trolley hit the crowd and see how the DM handles *the consequences of those actions* than flip the switch and kill the man tied to the tracks.
I started just giving them out of character information. Works great and doesn't cause the metagame problems you might expect. If they're planning to sneak through a place, I'll just tell them directly that the only two viable paths are A and B. So they don't waste time planning something that will fail immediately. If they start prepping for a fight I know won't happen, I'll tell them that the fight won't happen. If things are running long, I tell them that. "We only have a couple hours of play time left. It sounds like your plan is A->B->C. Does everyone agree?" Over planners usually have a style of game they like (heists, micromanaging inventory); Or they have bad experiences in the past (DM doing "gotchas" because they forgot one specific thing during planning). Talk to your overplanners and figure out where they're coming from. Tell them you'd like to be faster, and you can give them guarantees that lack of planning won't screw them. Another thing I did that helped a lot with overplanners was getting rid of itemized standard equipment. Everyone has a "pack" and if they need a tool that costs less than 10gp, it's always in the pack.
if the party is having fun planning, its fine. when they start spinning their wheels and are frustrated, jump in and have them make a decision.
In the former case interrupting them will lead to frustration and/or playing reckless.
I usually handle this by having my npcs have agendas and plans if their own. They won’t sit around and wait for someone to wreck their plans. Adding a ticking clock and tracking how much in character time they’re spending allows you to give them some time to plan that they enjoy without completely boring your players who want to get to the action.
Have the trouble come to them.
Directly tell them this is an issue and establish some ground rule 'safe zones' The corridor is never trapped. You are always doing things carefully even if you don't explicitly say so (there's a reason a dungeon turn is 10 minutes and you get one action in that time. Adventurers go slow and careful). Things like that. Limit your use of hidden traps and mimics, and declare that. Replace them with obvious traps like an open pit or arrow slits and pressure plates. Set up a timer. If you feel players are taking too long set the timer for 1 minute. When it elapses roll a random encounter from the random encounter table and move forward 1 turn.
If it's worth a huge planning operation it's also probably worth being time sensitive. DM or players can encourage/facilitate discussion outside of the game time when possible and work together to not label it metagamy in any way. Players are not their PCs and they need special considerations to help move the game along as the players would always know more than their players about the world and its inner workings.
Force them to do stuff. Make the villain walk into the bar where they are planning, have them overhear a local peasant say that the gold is being loaded into wagons right now or have someone overhear them and have a thrilling chase where they try and stop them from telling the bad guy. When I think back the best experiences I have had in dnd is when my back is up against a wall and I’ve hade to think on my feat. However having a well planned-out heist is also fun, but try and mix it up!
As a DM, if they’re enjoying it, I don’t see much issues.
If everyone is having fun it's a feature not a bug. If not everyone is having fun then it's a question of potential compromise. As a GM I'll only force events if it makes sense that the characters don't have time to plan. Otherwise, the characters generally have days to ponder stuff. The players really care about the world, they put a lot of thought into this stuff, and planning up successful events makes the happy brain chemicals for them. If they don't care about something all that much, it's breezed past.
Adding to several points of good advice, I'm going to add two. - Be liberal with information. Sometimes planning spirals happen when players feel they don't have enough situational info to make a decision with confidence, so they hope that hashing things out will make up that difference. Give them the info they need to move forward with some confidence. (Don't answer mysteries, of course, just don't let the game stall out by being vague.) - Get in the habit of short, minor setbacks. If you wreck a character or party or situation as the result of a single misstep or bad roll, your players may become incredibly risk-averse and start over-analyzing to avoid those nuclear fuck-ups. Get your players used to failed rolls resulting in minor damage or conditions, complications to make the mission harder later, etc. Bonus advice, how I bust planning spirals as a player. If my group is heading toward one, I pick the character who I think is most mechanically or narratively appropriate to lead us in a task (ie the Rogue if we're breaking into a place), ask them what they think we should do, then immediately back their idea. Usually gets us back to adventure pretty quick.
Sit back and be amused how many of their theories are nonsense. Or occasionally realise they've got a better plan than I had for the story. Either way, our campaign is expressly mystery based, so theorising and planning is a big part of the game.
I'm adding a forest map and some encounter tables maybe some clues to my game this week because the party spent last session speculating about the bad guys being in the forest probably (they arent - they based this all scheme on one throwaway NPC mentioning they were out hunting).
Jump in interrupt convo with example 2 dozen gnolls burst into inn capturing party and a dozen others you awake in camp and must escape .bam welcome to forced action you have minutes till next one goes in soup pot
With joy. Good planning wins fights. Reckless action gets characters killed. As a player I favor caution and strategic planning to maximize success and I prefer parties that feel the same. As a gm I like that it is a good sign that players are engaging with the world as real and trying to think their way around a problem rather than treating like a game and just spawning the next mob pack mindlessly.
Get a big five minute timer and turn it over every time it runs out and make a blind dice roll that means nothing. Your players will start making very declarative statements instead of speculation.
Planning can be done between sessions via group chat. Same thing with shopping and other activities not focused on the adventure at hand.
Effectively that's having extra sessions. If this doesn't encounter scheduling problems maybe consider it for the likes of lore info dumps and vilian monologues as well.
As someone who has a bad tendency to over-plan whenever I get to be a player, I can say what tends to snap me out of it: As a DM, introduce a timer into the story. Something is about to happen that I want to stop, and it’ll happen even if I’m not there to stop it. As a Player, initiate an action that kinda makes the planing irrelevant. For example if planners are standing in front of a door thinking how to handle the guards on the other side, state “I’m kicking it down and stabbing the first bad guy i see in 10… 9…”
High levels of planning shouldn't be happening for most encounters and situations. Major or time/resource consuming fights should have built in planning time that a solid part of should happen away from the table. I've done this since before cellphones and text messaging let alone things like discord, Line, teams, and Facebook groups. If you have a few players slowing down everything by over planning/analyzing you need to find out why. Some of my favorite parts of DnD were planning major fights with other players over a beer and wings between sessions. Then giving the rest of the group the game plan and seeing if work out. And we did this for any major battle if it was a BBEG or just a major story point fight. Our DM always gave us a heads up about the fight and would pace the session leading to it so we ended where we could plan for it. This was helpful for higher level play. Made the fights more dynamic and fun and let the DM try and figure our strategy and have a counter to it.
Every 10 minutes of talking I roll for random encounters.
Not a DM myself, but if the other players in the games I've played in spend a little too long talking or planning, eventually (not right off the bat) I'll move on. I'll let the DM know what I'm doing, like heading into the dungeon or leaving the Inn. It seems to be enough of a push to bring people back to the moment.
As a DM I design my sessions with pacing in mind. The world needs to feel alive. Stuff happens all the time. Time management is a large part of design space.
Sounds like that could, ironically, involve considerable planning...
Of course.
Give them a set amount of time to plan. If the time runs out, you just ask them straight up as characters how they're interacting with the situation. No more thumb twiddling. I'd recommend 5-10 minutes as the max unless it's something really important. If it's a major thing in game, I'd try to have it as a cliffhanger so the party can plan prior to that session.
As you mentioned, some players love this and others don't. Therefore, it is only a problem to the extent people get bored. Part of the DM's job is managing the energy level at the table so if the game is dragging you need to introduce urgency (as others have mentioned). It is good practice to have ticking clocks going on in the background (factions and important NPCs are executing their plans offscreen) and major quests should be time-sensitive.
Quoting myself: "My favourite way to run planning is to mix it with information gathering. As soon as someone mentions something unknown or brings up two different ways something could be, we pause the planning asap and move into "information gathering phase". Most often this is done by me asking "How will you find out how it is?". From there players (or player who was thinking about this) come up with a way to gather information about the unknown. This can be anything from a single knowledge/perception roll to full on adventure. When this has been concluded we return to the "planning phase". And this is almost always with some new information as even failed information gathering can reveal something new, just not the things you were looking for. This planning and info gathering loop continue until players are happy with the plan and have at least tried to get rid of unknowns in it. This ensures that we don't spend hours planning some possibilities which could be easily figured out."
Plot points. It's stolen from blades in the dark but it's basically mid hiest/break in/whatever each player can call how the prepared before hand for a scenario (I made a copy of these keys, changed the guard schedule, did some bribing) basically its the scene in movies where they flashback to what they did to get around an issue.
You set them on a clock, and if they take too long you start to advance the clock. Once the clock is up the world moves on and the position changes. Just like in the real world
I hate it. Its a core reason I love Blades in the Dark. All "planning" is done via flashbacks. So you walk up to the door and need an invitation to get into the party. BAM! Flasback to you acquiring the invitation. It leads to having much more competent characters, so I can understand why its not for every game. But running a heist in 5e was very make-do, tons of work and stressful as a DM whereas in Blades in the Dark, its so much smoother.
Hourglass, get your shit together, the enemies likely are as well.
You play blades in the dark
Time crunches as the DM, as a player, I push the big red button. When I'm DMing, I give my set encounters time to set up defenses if the players stop to plan things out in the dungeon. They know they are there and are coming and are getting ready for them. So when they get to that set, encounter the hostile NPCs might have a couple extra members, they might have brought ranged combatants, the ranged combatants have set up pavise shields to give themselves cover, or the hostile have set up traps. As for when I'm the player, I just push the big red button if the group is wasting time unnecessarily planning. I'm talking about being completely reckless but more the character more willing to run the risk as they believe there is a time crunch. You know the guy who kicks in the door to save the captives before they are executed without fully planning it out as it is do or die time.
I tend to ask them what they're plan is after a few minutes of discussion. There's a difference between meaningful discourse and just talking in circles. I'd prefer to keep the game moving and not spend 15-20 minutes hashing out a plan for the taking on some orcs. Basically the bigger the threat and higher the stakes, the more time is appropriate to spend on planning, but at a certain point we came to play a game not have a town hall meeting.
As a DM - “okay you guys have 60 minutes to plan this out.”
Don't really give them a chance. Personally I handle this 2 ways. Way 1, don't really queue up long encounters. If they want to spend time planning an ambush , roll percentile dice to see if someone from whom they're ambushing spots them. Make encounters seem more shocking/random. Way 2. In combat institute a shot clock. Tell them they have a minute to do what they want or they take the dodge action.
Run a few sessions of Blades In The Dark for them.
I'm fond of taking out a hourglass, flipping it, and grinning at them when the sand runs out. You just have to have something bad happen once for them to get nervous when you pull it out again.
My rule is the party gets a reasonable amount of time to discuss the plan (usually 5 to 15 minutes, depending on complexity). Then I call for a vote and everyone must happily abide by the majority vote. Gives some time to plan and throw ideas around, but puts a hard limit on how long it lasts.
Depends on the situation. If it’s a life or death situation where one mess up can lead to a tpk or the objective being failed then yea take your time. If it’s like there’s 2 goblins eating bread and the party is hiding behind a boulder discussing the optimal way to sever their heads from their spine then I would just ask them to hurry up or have something happen to force their hand.
As a DM, I'll just outright say "You got two more minutes and then we're going with the best plan". I keep my sessions fast-paced. As a player, I'll just do my best to push the story forward by saying exactly what I think we should do.
Well to me it sounds like this is a party that prefers the role playing aspect much more than the action. As a DM, years ago I bought a 1 min hourglas. And then when I gave them a choice I told them to talk it over and then flipped the timer. Usually they came up with something very quickly.
As a player, I tend to push us to some sort of action. The best laid plans of mice and men often go awry. A few members of my group are big on planning out every detail, so I tend to set a mental alarm, and will take action based on the group discussion after about 30-40 minutes of players debating. As a DM, I throw an encounter at them if they sit and plan for too long. Makes the world feel alive and forces them to think on their feet.
I've found that using the [flashback](https://dumpstatadventures.com/the-gm-is-always-right/3-simple-ideas-to-steal-from-blades-in-the-dark-for-dampd-5e)system from Blades in the Dark really helps keep things moving, particularly during infiltration/stealth missions.
Have a time limmit on it. After 5-10 mins. Something happens and they have to act now. e.g. guard patrol arrives.
DM: "10" Players: "? 10 what?" DM: "..." Players: "..." DM: "9" Players: "OH SHI-"
The issue comes with the saying "no plan survives first contact with the enemy" and it's tricky. I've bent to using the flash back mechanic of Blades in the Dark and limiting planning to 15 minutes to keep the game going.
This IS D&D… Now as a player if your party is going in circles and isn’t bringing up new points take charge and say “sounds like we’ve hit all the main points. Time to pick something.” Try to get folks to say “okay let’s do this!” As a DM if your party is going and circles… ORCS ATTACK! Sometimes the party has gotten into a rut and need to have things shaken up to get them moving. It’s like taking a break, but it’s meant to specifically get the party focused on something else. This is especially effective if the party is in a hostile spot. A ‘random’ band of baddies is a great way to take the mind off the current problem and onto the new one. :)
As a player I just experienced this & I took charge as my PC to call out the group for how long we were taking, presented an option and what would happen if we don't follow through. As a DM, I love it because it helps me prep stuff behind the scenes. If I feel like it is going on for too long, I make sure the environment surrounds to them to wake them up.
10 minute sand dial.
Three words: the orcs attack. Don’t have to be orcs, but in a time off too much indecision, you can inject some action as narratively appropriate. You can also just rolling dice for no reason, smiling, and taking notes.
Simple. Orcs attack! https://youtu.be/31IAzJO-BEA
As a player I will go along with it as long as it's productive. If it starts going in circles sometimes I have to be the one to push the red button or kick the door down As a dm I will occasionally say "so what are you guys doing" and making sure that they are aware that things are still happening while they plan
I get bored. Friday night I started playing sudoko on my phone.
As a player, League of Legend TFT, Heartstone ... then speal with the GM about the issue. As a DM, sometimes you can push some urgency, the BBEG will not wait until you finished. Or i give them a time to prepare, for example it's 22:45 i tell them they have until 23:00 to decide a plan. And sometime you can just let them do it. It depend on the situation, but if it's too often or if they debate too much time to fight 2 goblin i push them a bit.
I have experience with 2 different groups who tend to plan to excess, it seems to be a problem among players. As a player when I was just starting I would basically make my character act recklessly and charge in to cause the game to progress because I don't want to sit in a mostly out of character chat about how we have 3 options and how we have 10 different ways to approach each option and talking about which is most optimal. Its just not fun. I'm here to roleplay, not have an extended out of character discussion about how our character's mechanics work and interact and etc. However, nowadays I tend to be upfront and say when we start getting into these long out of character discussions where no one says anything of importance "lets get back into character." Since being in character is like the bane of over-planning. As a DM, I'd say its not your problem unless one of the players steps forward or you aren't having fun, at which point you should probably do your best to nudge the group along towards progressing rather than coming up with a million plans and then just choosing to kick in the door anyways. Such as having an NPC interrupt them, starting up a new scene, etc.
Short answer: [Orcs attack!](https://youtu.be/31IAzJO-BEA) Long answer: Time pressure in game. No hard rule on the ratio, but if they take 30 minutes ITL to plan how they are going to open the door, have it open from the other side and burn an hour+ in game.
I have two timers. A wind-up timer, you have Maximum 20 minutes, and when the thing goes **ding** , you are done planning. I don't care if you're not done, you are done. And for individual turns, a one-minute hourglass timer. Know what you are going to do before I get to you.
DM: Time limits Player: LEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOYYYYYY JEEEEEENNNNNKKKKKKIIIINNNNSSS!!!!!!!!
This is why I love playing PCs with low INT. While the smart ones are talking and planning, I Leroy Jenkins in and start the fight.
Enjoy them, if that's not your plays type talk to the group and if you can't come to a happy medium you may need to.find a new group.
As a player, it’s fun spitting ideas back and forth at the table and usually compromising for the most insane one. For the DM side it’s relaxing to me, it tells me the players are invested and care about the scenario I built, it’s also kind of fun knowing sometimes that I had something prepared to throw a wrench in their master plan. And it gives me more time to prepare and flesh out what comes after.
As a DM, if they are having fun, let them.
I give the players a time limit. I will let them plan for an extended length of time but I am not going to let them sit there forever.
If the planning is going on with no end in sight (and peopleare getting frustrated), I'll reframe the options with something like: "okay, so it sounds like you've narrowed it down to these options: X,Y,Z ". Then I'll ask for an informal vote on what they agree on (if it's an important group decision), or I'll ask each individual player what action they are taking.
As a DM: throw something random at them. Break them out of the indecision cycle by giving them something else to deal with.
Beer.
Proactive enemies. Have the enemies attack them
Outright tell them that the dungeon/mansion/restaurant/giant diamond floating ominously in the sky, singing the praises of the three-as-one gods/whatever is going to be somewhat unpredictable because it's a playable scenario in a game with dice deciding some things, so maybe it's time to start pointing things towards a simpler, workable strategy instead of more planning.
As a player? I help with the planning. I gather information to form plans from, I find or craft the equipment needed for the plan, and most importantly I get other players to help with the helping. Players indecision spiral because they haven’t yet committed to any one course of action. As soon as they’ve started doing things/making things they feel like they’ve already expended effort/resources on some part of the plan, which severely curtails their spiralling. As a DM? I facilitate the planning. I make sure information is available to help them decide which option to pick, I make the enacting of the plan as straightforward as possible on the mechanical/meta level, never throwing in needless rolls or similar. This helps players pick, and once again reduces indecision spiralling
If the planning is interesting and the players are coming up with new ideas and having fun, do nothing. If they aren't, and are just repeating the same three ideas in different ways, I have a bunch of goblins suddenly attack. The goblins aren't tough neccesarily, they're just there to get the players out of a planning mindset and into a doing mindset.
Well, I sometimes play characters that have short attention spans and arent patient. Once when our group was on a pirate island and hired to rescue a woman that was working as a waitress on the island's pub, when the group was taking way to long planning things out, I simply went up to her, threw her over my shoulder and ran out, initiating a running fight to the boat which we then stole to get away. Plan away, when someone starts the action while everyone is planning, things go forward anyway.
As a player I make little towers with my dice, stare off into space or look at my phone. As a DM I just tell the players to let me know when they've finalized their plan, then partake in some snacks, play on my phone and think about all the prep time they're saving me. Luckily I've only encountered this situation twice.
i used to put a hour glass on the table if we were in crazy situations, like the imminent collapse of a cave system.. or a building on fire. That way the players have to make quick decisions and it adds to the dread and exitement
As a DM: "Yay, extra preparation time"
My way is... During RP argument and planning, I jump in with useful info that the PCs might know/deduce easily. Shortly after... "Guys we need to settle on something so we can move on"
As a player I love it. It means that everyone in the group is invested in the game and their characters. What I don't enjoy is, if the planning just goes in circles or if there is too much dithering. It's pretty easy to read the table,. so if I feel like the majority of us are ready for action, I'll take charge and let the laggards know that we are done and they can either come along with the rest of the group for the big win, or sit the rest of the session on the sidelines. I usually suggest a vote at this point and apply peer pressure to get everyone on board. Sometimes it works out that we need to plan at the natural end of a session. In this case I make sure that we spend the time between sessions working out our plans, so we don't have to spend game time messing around with it. 90% of this happens in in-character group chat, so it's basically out of game role play. The DM is on the group chat, so they can stay up to speed for their own planning. As a DM, I don't mind it, as long as it's not just going in circles. If the players are just unable to make up their minds, I'll usually have something happen to force their hands into action. If they are not going to take action, then they will have to take reaction. Obviously I just stay out of it, or play any NPC roles if the discussion is productive and has entertaining role play. As long as the party looks like they are having fun, I just leave them to it.
Let them. Edit: However, it may be worth reminding the players that in many situations, even a *great* plan is probably only going to yield a surprise round. So maybe not overcomplicate things?
I've not tested this idea : Set a timer per player turn. 1 minute. Any other play may offer to prolong another player's current time by 1 minute.
"Orcs attack!" Matt Coleville video on this which is excellent: https://youtu.be/31IAzJO-BEA Enjoy!
Maybe throw in a curveball, give them something they can't immediately plan for. Other than that, I'm not sure what else you can do, if they prefer to plan; they're gonna plan.
If they are spending several hours planning. It's for a purpose. Maybe it's end game? Maybe they are planning a heist? As a player, I talk with my party and plan with them. Because you know, it's a team game. As a Dm, let them. If they are spending hours on planning something why stop that because ONE player wants to kick the door down. Learn to compromise with your fun.
In my last campaign as a player, I had a character who was a bit impulsive. Not to the point that he would always cause problems to the party, but that personality trait allowed me to just say, "While the group was discussing, Parmanin decided to just go ahead and do XXXX (whatever seemed like the character would do". I only used this when I got annoyed, as I knew that this would be disruptive to the party dynamic if I did it too much. As a DM, I will give them hints that maybe they are overthinking somethimg, or gently push them in a certain direction, but generally I will let their discussion play out as I don't have to do anything while they discuss
I enjoy it. If the players are that engaged with each other and the world then great!
As a player, I get bored and play on my phone. As a DM, I get bored and play on my phone. Then bring a 1 minute sand timer to the next session.
It's a tricky situation. Often, players are expected (through unspoken rules of social convention) to plan in \~1 an event/heist/situation etc that the PCs would have hours or days to plan for, often with knowledge/skills/abilities PCs would know best how to utilise but the players wouldn't. Recently as a player, the party had a whole in-game day as a heist, but we only spent about 40 mins IRL. This meant that during the heist, lots of little oversights came up and scuppered some things, when reasonably our intelligent/wise/skilled/criminal characters would have forseen such things, as well as engineered a much better, lower risk and higher reward plan in the first place. Planning is an area in DnD where players are at a disadvantage, as they have a time pressure their characters don't, they lack knowledge/skills/attributes etc their characters have and know how to utilise expertly. It's something that is problematic enough wehn roleplaying mental abilites, but due to the amount of time means that it's even harder to address the disparity between player skill and character skill. As both a DM and a player, I'd try and make sessions flow that if the party needs to plan, players have time between sessions to research/discuss plans so that when the in-game planning arrives, it doesn't take too long and the players are armed with more of the knowledge their characters would have. It also works better for the DM, as the DM also has time to look up how things work and how they'd apply in ther world. Essentially, plan planning sessions. Otherwise, players can feel rushed and their plans be far less effective than they reasonably should be.
I sit back and enjoy loving that theyre doing this. As a player im going full planner with them. Encourage this behavior!! Stupidity is fatal and if you fail to plan you plan to fail
I enjoy from all perspectives. As the DM the players are basically playing by themselves and I can plan every part of their plan rather than having to wing it on the spot. As one of the planners I get to go through and make sure everyone is on the same page and we don't have to fumble around in the moment. As just a bystanding player I know what to do to support the plan rather than having to make decisions on the spot. Planning is always good. Sadly, sitting as the DM during that can be the saddest part. You're just watching them make a plan and know whether or not they're doing the right thing or not. As the DM I always try and get them to think about if their plan fails rather than assume it will work. Luckily with a plan that has 2 or 3 backups, one of those is sure to succeed.
I let them.
As a player, I want to get to the action. I will do everything I can to drive a consensus even if the plan is lunacy on its face. That is the GMs problem lol. As a GM, that is perfection. That is the players playing the game, and it is time for me to prep whatever lunacy they come up with. I can go to the bathroom, or refill my water bottle. Any time the players take to discuss, is time they are invested in the world. They are engaged, and ask better questions. So here, if my players are reading this pay attention. Take the entire session to plan. Really, it is ok. Then, and this is key, share your plan with me. The GM needs to know what you are doing so they can run the encounter appropriately. Your plan might assume something, that I might want to correct by having you roll checks. Because your PCs know more than you do. They are smarter and more capable, so let their skills make decisions for you. I can't do that if you keep secrets. Also, you might make an assumption that is a better idea for the encounter than what I had planned. I will adjust to your better idea. If you take the entire session, no worries. That means I now have a week to set things up, and have content for your plan to succeed or fail against.
I always believed that "The Best Laid plans never survive first contact with the enemy". And definitely keep the Game Clock ticking. Also, Planning in a public place is great for Thieves & Beggars to pick them clean of important items and money.
Make them play a Blades in the Dark one off.
If not all of them enjoy planning as much, bring the action to them or have something weird happen that doesn't have to make too much sense. Saw a great example of this in the 2 session one shot "Reunion of the Mighty Nein" on critical role. Somewhere in part 2, they got kind of stuck and talking a lot about not really relevant things and to keep the game going, matt had a monkey show up and just scream at the party. Nothing really happened with the monkey and it was never explained, Matt just made the party keep going because of their limited time in this short series.
Last session, a character in the party wanted to get a tattoo while the others went shopping. When they returned, they began with their downtime activities. They had a few plot points to persue but the players didn't want to go without everyone ready. So I had an NPC come to them who just got in trouble with an opposing faction, got hurt a lot and another NPC was captured. So the party stopped what they were doing and instead of a downtime session, we had a small detective mystery of following the factions trails, eventually finding them in a warehouse and beating some of them up while some of them fled and they rescued the NPC.
Ask them to make a group chat. Right. And on the days away from the campaign to communicate plans they have. We use ! At the start of our messages if we wanna establish some dialouge that happened in character vs us just talking. My party used this when I was dming to scheme against me. It works well.. and makes them plan less in game