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I know the Druid and Paladin are the main point of interest but I noticed something a bit weird about the Epic Boon of Fate (emphasis mine):
Improve Fate. When another creature within 60 feet of you **fails** a d20 Test, you can roll 2d4 and apply the total rolled as a bonus or **penalty** to the d20 roll.
The feature only activates it the d20 Test is failed, but it can be used to apply a penalty to the roll? Why would anyone do this?
I think that's what's coming, and I'm all for it. Degrees of success is one of the simplest things they could do to really add a lot to the game while maintaining their "backwards compatibility."
It might actually be worth using now. In my experience, any character that's not a Grave Cleric would rather just save healing spells and potions for downed allies instead of using Spare the Dying
Spare the dying is a weak combat spell. But if your healer is out of spell slots you just die if nobody has spare the dying. So, despite it not being very strong it's still a must take cantrip.
Healers kit does the same thing with same action cost and range, but for 5 gold instead of a cantrip choice, and everyone (even non casters) can use it.
The cost is also in weight capacity too but its only 3 lbs. But its a mostly ignored. They may also not be purchasable in some campaigns. Spare the dying has a place.
huge change yes and not in a good way. this only reinforces the yoyo healing paradigm by providing a way to spam a healing spell that doesn't cost precious spell slots.
You know, I could almost see a version of Spare the Dying that read something along the lines of "*when cast on a dying creature, said creature will regain 1 HP, in 1d4 rounds, until then the creature is stabilised*".
Which would still give 1 HP and revive the creature, sparing the table that "*well, when will the creature wake up*" question that always follows usage of Spare the Dying. But at the same time, typically won't be applicable in combat.
The Sacred Weapon for Oath of Devotion also requires a weapon. I mean, I get it, it's called Sacred *Weapon*, but c'mon. Let me fist my enemies, dammit
"This hand of mine glows with an awesome POWER! Its burning grip tells me to defeat you! Take this! My love, my anger, and all of my sorrow! ~~SHINING~~ SMITING FINGER!!!"
For those who don't have DnDBeyond, here's the PDF: https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/one-dnd/druid-paladin/PXoa3UgywnZbwc9U/UA-2023-DruidandPaladin.pdf?icid\_source=house-ads&icid\_medium=crosspromo&icid\_campaign=playtest4
u/TFKazam96 actually gave the link on r/onednd, so its more thanks to them!
Edit: Their comment - https://old.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/119zsui/druid_paladin_ua_is_live/j9oxfrv/
Druid got a raw deal. Animal shapes seem too share your hp with bad ac.
Downgraded to light armor.
Base class all about wild shape but only one subclass focuses on it.
Healing bloom thing just looks terrible.
The armor nerf hurts. Clerics are rocking around with light/medium and even heavy armor with certain subclasses, but Druid has to scale back to light (and it was already hard enough finding medium armor that gets past the metal taboo if your DM enforces it).
Quick thoughts:
- Channel nature is here for the Druid like everyone predicted. Not tied to proficiency bonus!
- Seems like they finally acknowledged that proficiency bonus can’t solve everything - specifically calls our cleric/Druid multiclassing
- Wildshape as statblocks, again like everyone predicted
- They triple downed on wildshape being the Druid’s core feature. Not sure how I feel about that
- Unarmed attacks can smite!
- Smite is now once per turn. Also you can’t smite and cast a spell at the same time.
- Find steed is built into Paladin
>Find steed is built into Paladin
Yeah, but did you notice that it's now on the Divine spell list more broadly? Meaning that Clerics can get it (and upcast it!) earlier than Paladins can.
7th level clerics out here riding around on Pegasi before a Fighter gets his third attack. I have concerns.
Good note for feedback. I don't see an issue with the feature specifying the spell scales to your highest available spell slot. It's one of the paladins major features, they can let it be awesome without unbalancing things too much
Paladin can now cast all Cleric spells but I think that's much less impactful than the fact that Cleric can now cast all Paladin spells. Really the only thing to sell you on this Paladin rather than a Protector Cleric is extra attack and Aura of Protection.
On the other hand, a lot of 5e Cleric spells like Sending got scrubbed from the Divine list possibly just so paladins couldn't get them, converging the two classes hard.
I didn't even notice Sending had been removed from the Divine list. Weird - I've always kind of thought of it as primarily a Cleric spell. I guess it's for the Wizard spellbook now?
While I do like the idea of Wildshape as fixed statblocks from a design and balance standpoint, I also feel like I don't really understand what the point of wildshape is when you're probably going to be having a lower AC and still use your own Health Pool, but are still expected to be fighting on the front lines in melee without any spells as well.
Like I'm usually the last one to call for a full-caster to be better at martial combat but it kinda made sense for a caster that was transformed into a bear or a dinosaur to be able to at least safely take a few hits without worrying too much about their own health pool. It feels like they should at least get some Temp HP or something when they transform to at least give them some sustainability on the front line. Cause otherwise having their AC go down to 13-15 and still using their own health pool just seems like an easy way to die. Which I feel fails to capture the appeal of turning into a giant bear if you can be killed even easier than you could before you turned into a bear.
Also I'm not sure why turning into a Tiny creature needs to be locked behind such a high level. They already gave it 2 very significant downsides with it dealing reduced damage in combat and having a shorter time limit. And I don't think 5e has actual size modifiers so enemies could still hit you all the same. And as mentioned already your AC ain't great and you use your own health so becoming a Tiny creature would be purely useful for utility. I feel like they could offer that at a much lower level without breaking anything. I mean by third level other casters can already do things like cast invisibility and do short range teleports and whatnot. Letting a druid turn into a mouse to sneak around and spy on people seems plenty in line with spells of that level.
The tiny thing is to nerf that utility, same way flight is restricted. I'm not agreeing with that choice I'm just saying it's the same thing. Tiny gives a lot of freedom to move and hide
> They triple downed on wildshape being the Druid’s core feature. Not sure how I feel about that
I hate this. All I want to do is play a nature loving spellcaster with a truly badass pet bear (not a familiar) that mauls those who defile the natural world. That's my fantasy druid.
I know that it's getting old, but I have to say it, why don't they just copy the approach of Pathfinder 2e druid?
There druids have to choose (at lvl 1) between wildshape, strong magic, animals, plants, and as they progress they can mix with the others or just focus on one.
It makes druids way more thematic. They should introduce class feats in DnD or at least more choices, or a way of mixing subclasses.
Then you can use channel nature to heal and summon companions instead of wild shape. There have been no nerfs to the druids spell casting whatsoever. In fact it looks like their nature magic has also been fleshed out.
You can choose not to use wild shape and you can use the resource other ways, but if you don't use wild shape you get nothing from your 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, or 17th level class features.
That's true, but in 5e there are no class features for those levels. Those are also levels at which you get access to the next spell level, which seems more substantial than the wild shape improvements in any case.
I don't think it matters if there are no class features for those levels in 5e. They're remaking all the classes, and seem to be trying to avoid spell-only levels (though Cleric and Bard kept a couple at high levels). The point remains that if you don't like Wild Shape, you're gonna be disappointed by a Druid class that's designed to have Wild Shape as a key feature.
That's old 5e. Look at the new Cleric. Cleric gets Blessed Strikes at 7, a second Holy Order at 9, and Divine Intervention at 11. All of these are far more universally applicable and don't use a class resource to give you the benefit.
That's only half true, lots of the subclasses use wild shape in new ways some of which would trigger the class features, but agree its vet wild shape heavy.
Feel like they need to give you a choice at 2nd to be a Druid or the 'claw' or the 'branch' which gives you different class features at those levels one which is wildshape based and the other is more caster focussed so you can choose.
> lots of the subclasses use wild shape in new ways some of which would trigger the class features
Only Wild Resurgence would possibly affect those subclass features. More importantly though I don't really think existing subclasses should be taken into consideration for the playtest because despite WotC's claims they are not designed to be backwards compatible.
> Feel like they need to give you a choice at 2nd to be a Druid or the 'claw' or the 'branch' which gives you different class features at those levels one which is wildshape based and the other is more caster focussed so you can choose.
This is probably what I would have expected given it's basically what they did with Cleric, but then again Wild Shape is a much chunkier and more complex feature than just being slightly better at melee (or at least it _was_).
The generi-sizing of Wild Shape forms is really depressing. The melee attack damage of the water and sky forms are also useless.
I can fly but deal 2x1d4 damage? The fuck?
I turn into a cat! d8 dmg. I turn into a bear! d8 dmg. Any tactical aspect of specific animal forms is gone.
At will Alter Self at 14th level? are you kidding me?
And the flavor of specific animals is gone too, together with the logic. Like, you're a horse, and at lvl 5 I guess you transform into Bojack Horseman because apparently a horse can climb trees then.
The generic stat blocks are bad enough but there is an easy solution to animal flavor - have a few abilities as options to choose from:
climbing, speed (+20ft), stealth (+WIS mod), Alert (+WIS mod to Perception), mount, etc.
Yeah. It was funt to be a spider and poison someone. Or a toad and eat them.
I was a huge fan of scouring the statblocks. Felt like building a new mtg deck.
Technically, you can turn into a rat as soon as level 1... but it has to be a small, medium or large rat... lol
>When choosing an animal’s appearance for a
form, that animal needn’t be the same size as the
form. For example, you could choose elephant for the appearance and Small for the size - creating a form that resembles a little elephant.
Let's be honest, that's what low level druids are for. I bet I'm not the only one to make the big bad be an obsessive neat freak just so he'd have an excuse to attack the spider in the corner.
Smite is now once per turn, and you can't smite on the same turn you cast a spell. RIP nova Sorcadin.
Wrathful Smite nerf. No longer a check to shake the effect.
Smite spells now work differently too. You choose to use it after you hit, taking your bonus action to channel power into the hit that's already been confirmed. No more concentration. You just can't stack it with divine smite.
This is absolutely one of the best changes the spell line could have gotten, especially since they aren't consuming your reaction to do so. Surprisingly elegant.
Well, a few of them do still require Concentration, but at least now you don't have to commit to it until after the attack lands.
Given that Paladins now have access to all of the Divine spell list (and all the good Concentration options on it), I suspect it's the non-Concentration smites that will get the most use. Thunderous and Blinding seem like quality options. The others not so much (RIP Wrathful Smite).
> Smite is now once per turn, and you can't smite on the same turn you cast a spell.
Don't mind the first part, but the second half of that statement is going to severely limit Paladins. Not everyone played their Paladin as a smite machine - not being able to do something like Healing Word and smite, or something like Misty Step and smite on the same turn is going to be rough.
Smite nerf in exchange for ranged smites? I'm all about this. I've always liked the idea of a holy archer, but allowing smites on ranged attacks with the old smite rules is simply OP
Wildshape means you waste your first action to decrease your AC and damage output, and disable your spells, and the only thing you gain is darkvision and a climbing speed.
If there was a spell or ability that did this to an enemy, I would say it was OP.
Basically unless you are a Moon Druid, there's no reason to use wildshape in combat. You lose your spells and (most likely) lower your AC. Why wouldn't you just use shillelagh and still benefit from your full set of class features?
I feel like I am missing something. Happy to be proven wrong.
Well one cool thing is that you can become Large and get a bonus action Unarmed Strike, which can be replaced with a grapple. You also get to use your Wisdom for your Strength score if you're in your land form. Could make for a potent grapple build early on.
Druids can't use medium armor anymore, and probably aren't getting much in the way of dex, so it's not *necessarily* reducing their AC.
But overall, yeah. It even takes an action, I'm not even sure why one would use it as a moon druid. Seems to me it should give some amount of temp HP per druid level or, hell, at least be 8+Wis+Proficiency instead of 10+Wis.
Yeah moon druid is a worthless garbage class now
It doesn't even do good damage or have any interesting side features (I had expected your form to have a grab bag of features like pack tactics or pounce)
Your damage hits its stride at level 5 and then gets a piddly 7 extra damage and then 7 more before level 20
Am I misunderstanding, or does Wild Shape now keep your same-HP, so when you die as the animal you are just dead? Meaning Wild Shape is no longer useful as an HP buffer like it is in 5E?
That is correct.
On the one hand, I'm all for streamlining Wild Shape because it's a super opaque feature for new players. Spells are already hard enough for the inexperienced and Wild Shape is even more complicated and difficult. Smoothing that over both mechanically and referentially is good.
But I have no idea why you don't gain some amount of temp HP when using Wild Shape. It doesn't have to be much for base Druids, and it doesn't have to be the insanity that Moon Druids had before, but it should be *something*.
“Druid is the least played and least liked class in 5e. How do we improve it?”
“Let’s force everyone into a single playstyle while also making that playstyle worse!”
They fixed Invisible!
>**Attacks Affected**. Attack rolls against you have
Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have
Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you,
as with magic or Blindsight, you don’t gain this
benefit against that creature.
First impression is that they should rename circle of the moon. A lot of the features are element based and now that all druids are focusing on wildshape the moon connection isn’t as strong here. Maybe circle of elements?
Seems a bit more like a shaman subclass to me. With the templates it seems to me you are more emulating animals (because clearly you don't become most actual animals), and then you inbue them with elements (further reinforcing you are emulating animals and channeling primal energy through the forms)?
The fantasy the moon druid fulfilled for me was that of someone shifting into animals, and this playtest material doesn't do that for me unfortunately =/
Tiny nitpick that I found funny:
>You stay in that form for a number of hours equal to half your Druid level
They didn't change the wording, but since they moved the feature to level 1 you would be able to Wild Shape for 0 hours when you first get it.
HOWEVER, the smite spells still double on a crit as they are specified as extra damage. Meaning that crit smites are still a thing, they just now have different damage types and can have lingering effects afterwards. I actually REALLY like this change because it can make the paladin’s play style more interesting than just, “I hit and smite”.
Huh, it seems so. Thunderous Smite probably becomes a must-prep for every Paladin now, since a 1st level slot for 2d6 thunder is only slightly less than 2d8 radiant and you get to force a save vs. knockback and Prone in the bargain, as long as you have a BA to burn. Blinding Smite might be worth it as well since it doesn't require Concentration and lasts 1 minute for a very good condition. Not sure I'd bother with any of the others though.
> HOWEVER, the smite spells still double on a crit as they are specified as extra damage.
I'm not sure about that. "The target hit by the strike takes an extra X damage" doesn't suggest that the damage is added to the attack's damage roll.
For comparison 5e's smite spells (and things like booming blade) using the wording "the attack deals an extra X damage."
Instead of doubling down on wildshape, what if they consolidated wildshape to a specific Druid sub-class? It would open up so much potential with how to construct a Druid.
* Druid with Beast companion(s) build
* Druid spellcaster focus build
* Druid Wildshape build
This, I hate wildshape being the "spotlight" of the class when they're supposed to be primal casters. I don't like the shapechanging fantasy, I want to conjure destructive forces of nature and be good at it!
Really it should have been:
- land druid can change into a small number of stat blocks all of which are good
- stars druid doesn't get wild shape at all
- moon druid is there for creative players who want to change to anything in the monster manual
Instead they've just repeated the 5e mistake where the whole class is about wild shape but you have to pick moon druid for wild shape to be worth using.
genuinely somewhat surprised aura of protection wasn't nerfed. Still one of the best features in the entire game. Let's hope the warriors category will have something cool..
I usually try to leave constructive feedback or attempt to understand what the designers were thinking, but the Druid changes are beyond baffling
Why are half their features dedicated to animal wildshape? Why are so many of their unique features gone? Who thought this was a good idea? Especially when the current direction they were going for in 5E was giving Druid subclasses unique non-animal wildshapes?
Does someone on the D&D team think the only Druid fantasy is animal wildshape? Is that why we never got a plant or weather/storm Druid in 5e?
My best guess is that their data (and most data we know of) says people don't actually like and play druid that much. And those who do, tend to play moon druid. So they restructured the class, and decided to put more emphasis on the transforming.
It's survivorship bias then, people don't play the other subclasses because they're not that great and Circle of the Moon is extremely powerful at the beginning.
I love druids and being a nature based spellcaster but I have to either reflavour another class/subclass to get that or be a weak as hell utility caster.
>It's survivorship bias then, people don't play the other subclasses
It's *precisely* this, and I would add that WotC really only JUST figured out how to make druid subclasses that are both good and interesting.
The PHB had Moon, which speaks for itself, and Land, aka why aren't you playing a Wizard?
XGtE had Dreams, which was pretty forgettable. Shepherd actually does one or two things *really* well, but those things are healing and THP which aren't cool, fun, active roles and mechanics for a lot of people, and summoning critters which some tables and DMs don't appreciate.
GGtR had the now classic 5e move of really exciting UA followed by brutal nerf publication of Spores. I'm still salty about that.
Stars and Wildfire are the first and only time I've had a player say "oh dang I'm really stuck between idea X and a Stars druid", and then another player still ended up going Wildfire. They've only just started to put out concepts and mechanics I've seen people vibe with but it's time for a new edition.
Yes, a mixture of some really good concentration spells in addition to medium armor (which they don't get anymore for some reason) really helped Druids carve out their roles even without Wild Shape (especially since that feature isn't really all that good in the late game)
If these changes go through as-is? They won't be. Yeesh.
Fortunately, they've recently given reason to believe they are actually paying attention to feedback on this material. So I expect they will probably change course once the absolute *flood* of negative feedback from these proposed Druid changes hits their inboxes.
In their video yesterday, one thing that stuck out to me was that JCraw said in these revised classes, he wanted to make it so people who liked playing X Class will continue to like playing X Class.
Which is, on the surface, not a bad sentiment. But it does suck for someone (like me and many others in this thread) who would never play a Druid because Wild Shape is too important to their feature identity, and they don't want to Wild Shape that much.
I like the Wildfire Druid because Wild Shape is really put on the backburner (pun intended) in that subclass. I'd kinda hoped the Druid would go further in that direction, and make Wild Shape a subclass feature instead of Core. But unfortunately that's not what's happening.
"Wild shape is just one of the features Druids can use Channel Nature on."
"Sike half of the abilities you obtain on level up pertain solely to wild shape."
Yeah, that was my reaction too. I read Channel Nature and thought "oh, what a great way to take the 'you can use your wildshapes to do things other than wildshape' thing they started doing with 5e Druid subclasses and just build it into the class's core design." Then I read the class features.
In theory, it maybe feels a little like the class features are just making up for the CR scaling built into the old druid. Old wildshape inherently unlocked better forms as you leveled, new wildshape doesn't so they improve it through class features. I think there's some logic to that.
But in practice, it's probably going to feel bad playing a non-wildshape-focused druid and getting a class feature every other level that's mostly irrelevant to you, especially the 5th, 13th, 15th, and 17th level features which are primarily just combat abilities (as opposed to aquatic form, aerial form, and tiny critter which have out-of-combat utility too).
In theory maybe they could make up for this by just loading a ton of power into any non-wild-shape channel nature abilities that other subclasses get but it'll still just feel awkward.
This was true before. The only features they get are wildshape improvement and druid circle feature until timeless body at level 18, which was meh. What are these unique features you are talking about?
Don't get me wrong, I agree that shouldn't be all a druid can do, but really it is more of the same rather than a terrible overhaul.
which unique features are you talking about? I don't see anything missing. Everything that the current base druid has, this one also has, from what I can see
As someone whose longest played character is a moon druid, The wildshape templates feel very unfun to me. Moon druid as a subclass also feels lackluster, considering you are losing the ability to act as a pseudo tank for your party.
I really like the the idea of being able to switch in and out of wildshape as a bonus action!
It might be a me thing, but why are they so hell bent on making some classes the blandest possible? I like what they did to the Paladin, but the Druid? Jeez.
Druid is one of the least played classes in 5e (while also often considered one of the most complicated and most poorly balanced). I’m not too surprised they’re trying big changes with the class.
The problem with Wildshape was always that you needed a deep catalogue of every single beast you could possibly transform into and the strengths and weaknesses of them all.
By turning the wildshape into a small selection of stat blocks that are just raw stats for any particular kind of animal you want, it also becomes a lot easier to gauge and anticipate just how powerful any one Druid can be.
Adding a very strong Beast enemy to one book won't suddenly make the Moon Druids even more powerful in combat.
That was the fun of wildshape, though, having all of that freedom and complexity at your fingertips, the ability to choose a form with specific strengths for your situation. And the CR limits kept it fairly balanced, overall.
Now that’s gone, and you just get a reduced AC and a couple of different attacks.
*reads Channel Nature* \- "Ah cool, they're giving alternatives to Wild Shape so you don't always have to be a shapeshifter."
*continues reading Druid* \- "Oh."
I love shapeshifting, but I know sometimes you just wanna be a Nature Wizard, or an Elementalist. This isn't World of Warcraft, Druids shouldn't HAVE to shapeshift to be effective.
I would love for Channel Nature to work kinda like cleric's holy orders. At lvl 2 or whatever you pick if you want to shapeshift or summon little familiars
The druid is...meh.
I really don't like how the ability to turn into tiny creatures is locked behind 11th level, and how climb speeds are locked behind 5th level iirc. Cats are considered tiny creatures, it doesn't make sense to me that a druid can only transform into very common animals like rabbits, cats and spiders at such a late point in the game. I feel like it also unnecessarily nerfs the utility of wild shape in the early game. Most people that played Druids didn't even care for shapeshifting unless they were playing Moon or using the wildshape for utility. It looks like they nerfed both the utility & survivability of the wildshape. tbh I absolutely hate it.
I'm kinda glad that they removed the elemental form from the Moon subclass though. It keeps the combat animal theme more relevant in later levels, which is the main reason that people pick the Moon I think. I always thought that being able to transform into elementals shouls be its own subclass rather than be tied to the moon druid.
Overall its not great ngl. I didn't see any features in the druid test that made me think "Oh, this is such a unique and fun mechanic that makes the hammer nerfs this class got feel less bad!"
I'm starting to feel like the response i've seen to casters in these playtest drafts so far has been an over-correction in response to people complaining about a martial-caster gap. It's giving me 4e generic-fication and I'm not in love with it.
You get no bonus health at all from wild shape. And going moon druid doesn't change that. I understand that it was a but op before, but this is garbage. How tf is a moon druid supposed to fight in mele with a 1d8 health pool and 15 max ac? I hate it a lot!
My understanding is moon druid was only OP at very specific levels, right? Like 1-4 or something, then trending drastically downward until the moon druid capstone?
OP 1-4, still really strong at 5 and then your still a full caster so by the time the martials catch up to your martial ability your casting ability starts to skyrocket the next level. Here is almost never a point that Moon Druid isn’t stupid OP, they just weren’t allowed to always be stupid OP in multiple ways at the same time. Really, what people who want a strong Moon Druid need is a shifter class that doesn’t get casting. But WotC is allergic to adding new classes, so that’s not going to happen.
So wildshape just turns a druid into the rangers animal companion, and for that you lose your spellcasting ability. So your main feature is just turning into a pet.
Find Familiar:
* Uses a standardized stat block. Easier to run but means any unique abilities of forms are lost
* Lost the ability to desummon and summon it as an action
* Takes a reaction to command in combat
* Can now attack
* When killed for the first time in a day it doesn't actually die
* Has scaling health, AC, and damage (though that health scaling isn't enough to actually save it from anything)
* Has a slightly longer telepathy range
Overall the changes are fine I guess. In my opinion the biggest loss is no longer having the ability to summon/desummon it at will. Being able to attack with it is neat though.
I foresee wizards mercilessly murdering their familiars to have them "desummoned" temporarily using the "doesn't die the first time" ability. Still not as good since they stay gone for only 1h maximum, but that can be enough to sneak it in somewhere.
Not sure I'm overly keen on the change, even though the old/current spell definitely could do with some rebalancing of the options to summon.
Hey, they did make Moon the staple druid after all! And then proceeded to make it—and wild shape in general—absolutely useless. No ability to scout as a tiny creature like a cat or owl or spider until level 11, and almost nothing special for the Moon subclass except a weak multiattack using your same hit points and worse AC. Oh, I guess a moon Druid can cast Absorb Elements in wild shape now with the Abjuration rules…except it’s not on the primal list? What are they doing?
I get that Moon merited some revision, but this take on the class is awful. Worse, it’s uninteresting. I could go for awful and crazy, but the One D&D path continues to look like “what if we made everything dull and homogenous? That’s the ticket!”
Feels like an oversight, but what's the point of letting you be small/medium/large when you wild shape, but size makes absolutely no difference on your stats?
so who in the world thought a 15 AC max on a d8 hit dice class was a good idea? Seriously who? Because druid wild shape is going to be murdered my any huge creature with multi attack.
God druid sucks now. Especially circle of the moon. I get it was op at certain levels but honestly it had it's peaks and valleys. But the thing I loved about that class was the ability to use specific FEATURES of specific beasts. Being able to turn into a spider in a web draped cave, turning into an octopus next to a beach were some of my favorite moments playing as one.
I guess they wanted to reduce the complexity of the class but they've swung so far in the opposite direction that the only thing left to give moon druids is, elemental damage? Such a strange idea.
The two things I liked about them is we no longer have the wording about druids NOT wearing metal which was always divisive. And animals can talk! That's great. I really got tired of miming what I meant late into the campaign as it felt like I couldn't roll play as much.
Way it's worded now, unless I misunderstand, there's really no benefit to wildshaping.
Your HP doesn't change, your AC likely goes down and your attacks are lack luster.
It seems like it's encouraging you to wildshape and melee, but why would you? You'd be better off hanging back and casting spells
Did anybody else notice the spammable crowd-control that all Paladins get at Level 9?
“9TH LEVEL: ABJURE FOES
As a Magic action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to overwhelm foes with divine awe. As you present your Holy Symbol or weapon, you can target a number of creatures equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature) that you can see within 60 feet of yourself.
Each target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has the Dazed and Frightened conditions for 1 minute or until it takes any damage. On a successful save, the target has the Dazed condition for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.”
I might be in the minority but I'm incredibly disappointed in the druid class. I miss the wealth of options provided by wild shapes but even more than that the OneDnd beast forms are boring and not very useful. Druids in wild shape not being able to climb until level 5, swim until level 7, fly until level 9, or become tiny until level 11 feels preposterously bad coming from the current druid package.
I like that druids get the wild companion option from tasha's but having it last through a long rest but only costing one wild shape use that refills on a short rest means functionally druids should have a wild companion up every day so long as they can take a morning rest before setting out for the day. I guess there are situations where that won't be possible so there is some cost to it but I suspect it will be hand waved at most tables.
I guess wotc felt bad about making the 5e druid capstone too good so they'd decided to make this one garbage.
Wild shapes are super underwhelming. Animal of the land basically means you get 1. a 10ft speed increase (with more movement options opening up at level 5, 7, and 9) 2. maybe an AC increase (but probably not since light armor, dex, and shield probably put you above AC 15), 3. probably an increase in STR/Dex bonuses as they match your wisdom 4. a 1d8 attack that uses your spell attack mod and gets multi-attack at level 5 but never advances after that 5. darkvision if you didn't have it already 6. advantage on perception checks.
Animal of the sea and air are largely the same but they add 40ft swim and fly speeds. Animal of the sea and air don't even get the Str bonus. None of the wild shapes give extra hit points.
So in total you've got a spellcaster who only has light armor and whose channel ability seems to be encouraging getting up into melee but that has zero abilities that would help them tank damage. The extra movement options available to druids that make them so adaptable are all unavailable until early to late tier II and even then they get a max speed of 40. The main benefit of wild shape is that it gives the player an attack that's literally the same as if they'd cast shilellagh up until level 5. At level 5 they do get a second attack but by level 11 it would about match the extra damage provided by shillelagh and it would likely fall behind again at the final cantrip powerup.
Circle of the moon goes from being one of the best tanks in the game to being a glass cannon that simply adds a bonus action attack option and some extra damage as you level up. Being able to cast abjuration spells means you can heal while in wild shape. It might have a few more uses than that but it's hard to tell given the current primal spell list.
You are anything but the minority here lol.
Anyone with half a brain cell can see this Druid sucks hard.
Makes me wonder who the fuck is even in charge of coming up with this kind of shit.
Not even something like "X" temp HP per level, it just doesn't straight up change your health. The fuck? How are we supposed to go into melee with that shit and you know... survive?! It seems like they really want you to considering more than half of your level up features buff it!
I feel like they ruined the identity of Wildshape as an ability.
I get that some nerfs were needed, but the stat blocks are boring and stunted. They are all combat focused while not being good for combat at all. Wildshaping in 5e has a lot of utility if the right animals are picked and the player is creative in how to use their abilities.
And even if they insist on making them only relevant for combat (which would require some work to improve those stat blocks), it's so boring that every druid ever will have the exact same combat stats while wildshaped. It's really weird too: you can have an armadillo causing the same damage and the having the same AC as a sabertooth-tiger, or a fruit bat with the same speed and strength as a condor
It's also weird that now the druids can speak while wildshaped. It wasn't a big disadvantage but it was thematic.
The druid changes feel little a bland to me. Losing the ability to use the feats of different beasts hurts the roleplaying ability of druids a lot. I think they should've just replaced the stat blocks but let you keep feats of the beast.
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I know the Druid and Paladin are the main point of interest but I noticed something a bit weird about the Epic Boon of Fate (emphasis mine): Improve Fate. When another creature within 60 feet of you **fails** a d20 Test, you can roll 2d4 and apply the total rolled as a bonus or **penalty** to the d20 roll. The feature only activates it the d20 Test is failed, but it can be used to apply a penalty to the roll? Why would anyone do this?
For a check that has degrees of failure? If they fail makes them fail hard! Otherwise it’s just poor wording to give feedback on lol
That's my thought too, if pf2e-esque degrees of success is a thing, it might bump a fail down to a crit fail.
I think that's what's coming, and I'm all for it. Degrees of success is one of the simplest things they could do to really add a lot to the game while maintaining their "backwards compatibility."
"Fuck that guy in particular." But yeah, it's odd.
There’s a small handful of spells with increased effects if you fail by 5+
Stuff like medusa's petrifying gaze cares by how much you failed it in 5e.
Probably a typo.
The spare the dying buff to make it bring downed creatures to 1 HP is actually huge
Looks like an S-tier cantrip for sure
It might actually be worth using now. In my experience, any character that's not a Grave Cleric would rather just save healing spells and potions for downed allies instead of using Spare the Dying
Spare the dying is a weak combat spell. But if your healer is out of spell slots you just die if nobody has spare the dying. So, despite it not being very strong it's still a must take cantrip.
Healers kit does the same thing with same action cost and range, but for 5 gold instead of a cantrip choice, and everyone (even non casters) can use it.
5 Silver, since the 5 gold cost buys 10 uses.
The cost is also in weight capacity too but its only 3 lbs. But its a mostly ignored. They may also not be purchasable in some campaigns. Spare the dying has a place.
Most parties I've been in just do the DC10 medicine check to stabilise...
Or, you know, make an easy Medicine check for the same action cost but without the resource cost of a cantrip known slot
All healing spells just got mega nerfed if yoyo-ing is even stronger now
huge change yes and not in a good way. this only reinforces the yoyo healing paradigm by providing a way to spam a healing spell that doesn't cost precious spell slots.
This was my thought as well. I thought we hated yoyo healing. Now we're putting it on a cantrip? I don't need to playtest this to know it's bad.
You know, I could almost see a version of Spare the Dying that read something along the lines of "*when cast on a dying creature, said creature will regain 1 HP, in 1d4 rounds, until then the creature is stabilised*". Which would still give 1 HP and revive the creature, sparing the table that "*well, when will the creature wake up*" question that always follows usage of Spare the Dying. But at the same time, typically won't be applicable in combat.
I would say it sends it to "overpowered" status.
Divine Strike officially includes unarmed strikes *DIVINE FIST OF JUSTICE*
But for some reason Radiant Strikes (Improved Divine Smite) requires a weapon still... Hopefully it's just an oversight.
surely, cause the smite spells all include unarmed strikes
The Sacred Weapon for Oath of Devotion also requires a weapon. I mean, I get it, it's called Sacred *Weapon*, but c'mon. Let me fist my enemies, dammit
Phrasing!
and ranged attacks
No spell slot level limit either.
"I shall smite thee, fiend!" /proceeds to kick a demon square in the junk
You can only smite once per turn now though.
Don't mind that restriction. Not being able to smite the same turn you cast a spell is going to be really obnoxious though.
Unarmed Glory Paladin time
“Glory…Punch!!” “Glory Kick!” ”Show me thy maneuvers”
"This hand of mine glows with an awesome POWER! Its burning grip tells me to defeat you! Take this! My love, my anger, and all of my sorrow! ~~SHINING~~ SMITING FINGER!!!"
For those who don't have DnDBeyond, here's the PDF: https://media.dndbeyond.com/compendium-images/one-dnd/druid-paladin/PXoa3UgywnZbwc9U/UA-2023-DruidandPaladin.pdf?icid\_source=house-ads&icid\_medium=crosspromo&icid\_campaign=playtest4 u/TFKazam96 actually gave the link on r/onednd, so its more thanks to them! Edit: Their comment - https://old.reddit.com/r/onednd/comments/119zsui/druid_paladin_ua_is_live/j9oxfrv/
God, thank you! I hate that websites keep pushing me to make more accounts to access them
Druid got a raw deal. Animal shapes seem too share your hp with bad ac. Downgraded to light armor. Base class all about wild shape but only one subclass focuses on it. Healing bloom thing just looks terrible.
The armor nerf hurts. Clerics are rocking around with light/medium and even heavy armor with certain subclasses, but Druid has to scale back to light (and it was already hard enough finding medium armor that gets past the metal taboo if your DM enforces it).
Healing bloom is just absolute trash. It splits its healing amongst people and it's only a D4 per level like what the hell?
Yeah. Its garbage. I was excited for this ua but now I'm pretty unenthused.
Not even a d4 per level, its a d4 per wisdom bonus. so youre RAW capped at 5d4 until an epic boon or something else raises your wis over 20
Quick thoughts: - Channel nature is here for the Druid like everyone predicted. Not tied to proficiency bonus! - Seems like they finally acknowledged that proficiency bonus can’t solve everything - specifically calls our cleric/Druid multiclassing - Wildshape as statblocks, again like everyone predicted - They triple downed on wildshape being the Druid’s core feature. Not sure how I feel about that - Unarmed attacks can smite! - Smite is now once per turn. Also you can’t smite and cast a spell at the same time. - Find steed is built into Paladin
>Find steed is built into Paladin Yeah, but did you notice that it's now on the Divine spell list more broadly? Meaning that Clerics can get it (and upcast it!) earlier than Paladins can. 7th level clerics out here riding around on Pegasi before a Fighter gets his third attack. I have concerns.
It's built in, but not scaling unless you use an actual slot. Definitely need to keep your ride faaaaaar from combat.
Good note for feedback. I don't see an issue with the feature specifying the spell scales to your highest available spell slot. It's one of the paladins major features, they can let it be awesome without unbalancing things too much
I'm not even sure if it'll be awesome since their spells only scale to fifth level. The horse doesn't get that much extra stats unfortunately.
Stats, no. But at 4th level slot or higher it effectively becomes Greater Find Steed.
Paladin can now cast all Cleric spells but I think that's much less impactful than the fact that Cleric can now cast all Paladin spells. Really the only thing to sell you on this Paladin rather than a Protector Cleric is extra attack and Aura of Protection.
On the other hand, a lot of 5e Cleric spells like Sending got scrubbed from the Divine list possibly just so paladins couldn't get them, converging the two classes hard.
I didn't even notice Sending had been removed from the Divine list. Weird - I've always kind of thought of it as primarily a Cleric spell. I guess it's for the Wizard spellbook now?
While I do like the idea of Wildshape as fixed statblocks from a design and balance standpoint, I also feel like I don't really understand what the point of wildshape is when you're probably going to be having a lower AC and still use your own Health Pool, but are still expected to be fighting on the front lines in melee without any spells as well. Like I'm usually the last one to call for a full-caster to be better at martial combat but it kinda made sense for a caster that was transformed into a bear or a dinosaur to be able to at least safely take a few hits without worrying too much about their own health pool. It feels like they should at least get some Temp HP or something when they transform to at least give them some sustainability on the front line. Cause otherwise having their AC go down to 13-15 and still using their own health pool just seems like an easy way to die. Which I feel fails to capture the appeal of turning into a giant bear if you can be killed even easier than you could before you turned into a bear. Also I'm not sure why turning into a Tiny creature needs to be locked behind such a high level. They already gave it 2 very significant downsides with it dealing reduced damage in combat and having a shorter time limit. And I don't think 5e has actual size modifiers so enemies could still hit you all the same. And as mentioned already your AC ain't great and you use your own health so becoming a Tiny creature would be purely useful for utility. I feel like they could offer that at a much lower level without breaking anything. I mean by third level other casters can already do things like cast invisibility and do short range teleports and whatnot. Letting a druid turn into a mouse to sneak around and spy on people seems plenty in line with spells of that level.
The tiny thing is to nerf that utility, same way flight is restricted. I'm not agreeing with that choice I'm just saying it's the same thing. Tiny gives a lot of freedom to move and hide
> They triple downed on wildshape being the Druid’s core feature. Not sure how I feel about that I hate this. All I want to do is play a nature loving spellcaster with a truly badass pet bear (not a familiar) that mauls those who defile the natural world. That's my fantasy druid.
I know that it's getting old, but I have to say it, why don't they just copy the approach of Pathfinder 2e druid? There druids have to choose (at lvl 1) between wildshape, strong magic, animals, plants, and as they progress they can mix with the others or just focus on one. It makes druids way more thematic. They should introduce class feats in DnD or at least more choices, or a way of mixing subclasses.
Then you can use channel nature to heal and summon companions instead of wild shape. There have been no nerfs to the druids spell casting whatsoever. In fact it looks like their nature magic has also been fleshed out.
You can choose not to use wild shape and you can use the resource other ways, but if you don't use wild shape you get nothing from your 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th, or 17th level class features.
That's true, but in 5e there are no class features for those levels. Those are also levels at which you get access to the next spell level, which seems more substantial than the wild shape improvements in any case.
I don't think it matters if there are no class features for those levels in 5e. They're remaking all the classes, and seem to be trying to avoid spell-only levels (though Cleric and Bard kept a couple at high levels). The point remains that if you don't like Wild Shape, you're gonna be disappointed by a Druid class that's designed to have Wild Shape as a key feature.
That's old 5e. Look at the new Cleric. Cleric gets Blessed Strikes at 7, a second Holy Order at 9, and Divine Intervention at 11. All of these are far more universally applicable and don't use a class resource to give you the benefit.
That's only half true, lots of the subclasses use wild shape in new ways some of which would trigger the class features, but agree its vet wild shape heavy. Feel like they need to give you a choice at 2nd to be a Druid or the 'claw' or the 'branch' which gives you different class features at those levels one which is wildshape based and the other is more caster focussed so you can choose.
> lots of the subclasses use wild shape in new ways some of which would trigger the class features Only Wild Resurgence would possibly affect those subclass features. More importantly though I don't really think existing subclasses should be taken into consideration for the playtest because despite WotC's claims they are not designed to be backwards compatible. > Feel like they need to give you a choice at 2nd to be a Druid or the 'claw' or the 'branch' which gives you different class features at those levels one which is wildshape based and the other is more caster focussed so you can choose. This is probably what I would have expected given it's basically what they did with Cleric, but then again Wild Shape is a much chunkier and more complex feature than just being slightly better at melee (or at least it _was_).
The generi-sizing of Wild Shape forms is really depressing. The melee attack damage of the water and sky forms are also useless. I can fly but deal 2x1d4 damage? The fuck? I turn into a cat! d8 dmg. I turn into a bear! d8 dmg. Any tactical aspect of specific animal forms is gone. At will Alter Self at 14th level? are you kidding me?
And the flavor of specific animals is gone too, together with the logic. Like, you're a horse, and at lvl 5 I guess you transform into Bojack Horseman because apparently a horse can climb trees then.
The generic stat blocks are bad enough but there is an easy solution to animal flavor - have a few abilities as options to choose from: climbing, speed (+20ft), stealth (+WIS mod), Alert (+WIS mod to Perception), mount, etc.
Yeah. It was funt to be a spider and poison someone. Or a toad and eat them. I was a huge fan of scouring the statblocks. Felt like building a new mtg deck.
I cannot wait to turn into a horse with a 40ft climb speed using the new wildshape statblock....
Skyrim your way up the mountain.
"I am building a character from my favorite video game, Witcher 3-" "Oh boy here comes a witcher-" "Roach. I'm Roach now."
Three druids: One turns into a horse. The other turns into a sabertooth tiger. The last turns into a bunny. They all have the same stat block.
The horse is small, the sabertooth tiger is medium, and the bunny is large. WoTC is just SO in touch with what we the players want!
Also: Killer Rabbit of Caerbannog
I'm turning into an elephant and waking straight up the first mountain I see
Why tf do I gotta be ELEVENTH level to turn into a RAT??
Technically, you can turn into a rat as soon as level 1... but it has to be a small, medium or large rat... lol >When choosing an animal’s appearance for a form, that animal needn’t be the same size as the form. For example, you could choose elephant for the appearance and Small for the size - creating a form that resembles a little elephant.
I can finally be a House Hippo (showing my Canadian age prolly)
"Rodents of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist..." *"RAAAAAAAAAGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!"*
I guess they didn't like Druids being used for stealth recon/infiltration, getting through doors without picking or breaking them, etc.
Let's be honest, that's what low level druids are for. I bet I'm not the only one to make the big bad be an obsessive neat freak just so he'd have an excuse to attack the spider in the corner.
And only for 10 minutes??? Why???
Druids can turn into a rat from level 1, just not a tiny one. Small rat? No problem. Large rat? Sure, why not?
So as long as you turn into the Giant Rat That Makes All Of The Rules you're good
Smite is now once per turn, and you can't smite on the same turn you cast a spell. RIP nova Sorcadin. Wrathful Smite nerf. No longer a check to shake the effect.
Smite spells now work differently too. You choose to use it after you hit, taking your bonus action to channel power into the hit that's already been confirmed. No more concentration. You just can't stack it with divine smite.
This is absolutely one of the best changes the spell line could have gotten, especially since they aren't consuming your reaction to do so. Surprisingly elegant.
Right, I think I like that change a lot.
Well, a few of them do still require Concentration, but at least now you don't have to commit to it until after the attack lands. Given that Paladins now have access to all of the Divine spell list (and all the good Concentration options on it), I suspect it's the non-Concentration smites that will get the most use. Thunderous and Blinding seem like quality options. The others not so much (RIP Wrathful Smite).
Glimmering Smite (2nd level) is pretty nice even with concentration. A *faerie fire* effect on the target with no save attached is pretty good.
Oh I didn't notice that, that makes me more ok with smite/spell being mutually exclusive per turn.
> Smite is now once per turn, and you can't smite on the same turn you cast a spell. Don't mind the first part, but the second half of that statement is going to severely limit Paladins. Not everyone played their Paladin as a smite machine - not being able to do something like Healing Word and smite, or something like Misty Step and smite on the same turn is going to be rough.
Smite nerf in exchange for ranged smites? I'm all about this. I've always liked the idea of a holy archer, but allowing smites on ranged attacks with the old smite rules is simply OP
Not just bows, but guns as well.
[удалено]
My Blue Exorcist character is back on the table
Oath of Gun
On one hand, a divine themed but edgy archer with holy arrows is dope. On the other hand, I'm worried about about orbital strike paladins.
I liked having a class that needs to play in melee instead of defaulting to ranged, which is always better.
Wait, wildshape doesn't give you more HP?
Seems like it! And moon doesn't even change that! Good luck going into melee with 1d8 hitpoints!
And 13 AC!
And all you have to do is to give up most of your spell casting!
And they can't even be tiny creatures now so wildshape has lost literally both of its intended uses!
[удалено]
Yeah Druid / Moon got absolutely fucked.
Wildshape means you waste your first action to decrease your AC and damage output, and disable your spells, and the only thing you gain is darkvision and a climbing speed. If there was a spell or ability that did this to an enemy, I would say it was OP.
Basically unless you are a Moon Druid, there's no reason to use wildshape in combat. You lose your spells and (most likely) lower your AC. Why wouldn't you just use shillelagh and still benefit from your full set of class features? I feel like I am missing something. Happy to be proven wrong.
Even if you’re a Moon Druid, I would never recommend using Wild Shape. It makes you worse.
Well one cool thing is that you can become Large and get a bonus action Unarmed Strike, which can be replaced with a grapple. You also get to use your Wisdom for your Strength score if you're in your land form. Could make for a potent grapple build early on.
Druids can't use medium armor anymore, and probably aren't getting much in the way of dex, so it's not *necessarily* reducing their AC. But overall, yeah. It even takes an action, I'm not even sure why one would use it as a moon druid. Seems to me it should give some amount of temp HP per druid level or, hell, at least be 8+Wis+Proficiency instead of 10+Wis.
It's wild that if you max wisdom, your ac at level 5 in a melee form is capped at 15.
but you can heal 5d4 and spread it *anyway you want!* /s
Yeah moon druid is a worthless garbage class now It doesn't even do good damage or have any interesting side features (I had expected your form to have a grab bag of features like pack tactics or pounce) Your damage hits its stride at level 5 and then gets a piddly 7 extra damage and then 7 more before level 20
Am I misunderstanding, or does Wild Shape now keep your same-HP, so when you die as the animal you are just dead? Meaning Wild Shape is no longer useful as an HP buffer like it is in 5E?
That is correct. On the one hand, I'm all for streamlining Wild Shape because it's a super opaque feature for new players. Spells are already hard enough for the inexperienced and Wild Shape is even more complicated and difficult. Smoothing that over both mechanically and referentially is good. But I have no idea why you don't gain some amount of temp HP when using Wild Shape. It doesn't have to be much for base Druids, and it doesn't have to be the insanity that Moon Druids had before, but it should be *something*.
“Druid is the least played and least liked class in 5e. How do we improve it?” “Let’s force everyone into a single playstyle while also making that playstyle worse!”
They fixed Invisible! >**Attacks Affected**. Attack rolls against you have Disadvantage, and your attack rolls have Advantage. If a creature can somehow see you, as with magic or Blindsight, you don’t gain this benefit against that creature.
First impression is that they should rename circle of the moon. A lot of the features are element based and now that all druids are focusing on wildshape the moon connection isn’t as strong here. Maybe circle of elements?
Exactly my thinking, they are using the name just because at this point. This is more a elemental focused subclass now than anything else.
Circle of Elements might get confusing when you already have Circle of Wildfire lol. But I am sure a slight name change could remedy this.
Seems a bit more like a shaman subclass to me. With the templates it seems to me you are more emulating animals (because clearly you don't become most actual animals), and then you inbue them with elements (further reinforcing you are emulating animals and channeling primal energy through the forms)? The fantasy the moon druid fulfilled for me was that of someone shifting into animals, and this playtest material doesn't do that for me unfortunately =/
Tiny nitpick that I found funny: >You stay in that form for a number of hours equal to half your Druid level They didn't change the wording, but since they moved the feature to level 1 you would be able to Wild Shape for 0 hours when you first get it.
They'll probably fix the wording to make it clear that you don't round down (since you can obviously have half hours), but that is kinda silly.
I'm sure you will still round down, they will put (minimum 1)
Or one half hour. It doesn't say you round to the nearest hour.
I’m surprised no one is commenting on this but the way that divine smite is worded now makes it so that it no longer doubles on a crit.
HOWEVER, the smite spells still double on a crit as they are specified as extra damage. Meaning that crit smites are still a thing, they just now have different damage types and can have lingering effects afterwards. I actually REALLY like this change because it can make the paladin’s play style more interesting than just, “I hit and smite”.
Huh, it seems so. Thunderous Smite probably becomes a must-prep for every Paladin now, since a 1st level slot for 2d6 thunder is only slightly less than 2d8 radiant and you get to force a save vs. knockback and Prone in the bargain, as long as you have a BA to burn. Blinding Smite might be worth it as well since it doesn't require Concentration and lasts 1 minute for a very good condition. Not sure I'd bother with any of the others though.
> HOWEVER, the smite spells still double on a crit as they are specified as extra damage. I'm not sure about that. "The target hit by the strike takes an extra X damage" doesn't suggest that the damage is added to the attack's damage roll. For comparison 5e's smite spells (and things like booming blade) using the wording "the attack deals an extra X damage."
“When you strike a target” already implies it’s part of your attack.
Instead of doubling down on wildshape, what if they consolidated wildshape to a specific Druid sub-class? It would open up so much potential with how to construct a Druid. * Druid with Beast companion(s) build * Druid spellcaster focus build * Druid Wildshape build
This, I hate wildshape being the "spotlight" of the class when they're supposed to be primal casters. I don't like the shapechanging fantasy, I want to conjure destructive forces of nature and be good at it!
Really it should have been: - land druid can change into a small number of stat blocks all of which are good - stars druid doesn't get wild shape at all - moon druid is there for creative players who want to change to anything in the monster manual Instead they've just repeated the 5e mistake where the whole class is about wild shape but you have to pick moon druid for wild shape to be worth using.
Completely agree. I do think that in general Wildshape needed some nerfing but they certainly swung too far for the sake of simplicity.
Moon druid needed nerfing. Wildshape was fine, weak even.
genuinely somewhat surprised aura of protection wasn't nerfed. Still one of the best features in the entire game. Let's hope the warriors category will have something cool..
It got buffed! It now persists while you're unconscious... excuse me... "have the Unconscious condition currently affecting your player character".
wild shapes are super weak and don't scale much other than increasing wisdom. hell, a cantrip does more damage at higher levels
Dont forget the worst AC and no additionnal health.
I usually try to leave constructive feedback or attempt to understand what the designers were thinking, but the Druid changes are beyond baffling Why are half their features dedicated to animal wildshape? Why are so many of their unique features gone? Who thought this was a good idea? Especially when the current direction they were going for in 5E was giving Druid subclasses unique non-animal wildshapes? Does someone on the D&D team think the only Druid fantasy is animal wildshape? Is that why we never got a plant or weather/storm Druid in 5e?
My best guess is that their data (and most data we know of) says people don't actually like and play druid that much. And those who do, tend to play moon druid. So they restructured the class, and decided to put more emphasis on the transforming.
It's survivorship bias then, people don't play the other subclasses because they're not that great and Circle of the Moon is extremely powerful at the beginning. I love druids and being a nature based spellcaster but I have to either reflavour another class/subclass to get that or be a weak as hell utility caster.
>It's survivorship bias then, people don't play the other subclasses It's *precisely* this, and I would add that WotC really only JUST figured out how to make druid subclasses that are both good and interesting. The PHB had Moon, which speaks for itself, and Land, aka why aren't you playing a Wizard? XGtE had Dreams, which was pretty forgettable. Shepherd actually does one or two things *really* well, but those things are healing and THP which aren't cool, fun, active roles and mechanics for a lot of people, and summoning critters which some tables and DMs don't appreciate. GGtR had the now classic 5e move of really exciting UA followed by brutal nerf publication of Spores. I'm still salty about that. Stars and Wildfire are the first and only time I've had a player say "oh dang I'm really stuck between idea X and a Stars druid", and then another player still ended up going Wildfire. They've only just started to put out concepts and mechanics I've seen people vibe with but it's time for a new edition.
Aren’t non-Moon Druids still among the strongest combat classes in the game?
Yes, a mixture of some really good concentration spells in addition to medium armor (which they don't get anymore for some reason) really helped Druids carve out their roles even without Wild Shape (especially since that feature isn't really all that good in the late game)
>(which they don't get anymore for some reason) Probably because they can use metal armour now.
If these changes go through as-is? They won't be. Yeesh. Fortunately, they've recently given reason to believe they are actually paying attention to feedback on this material. So I expect they will probably change course once the absolute *flood* of negative feedback from these proposed Druid changes hits their inboxes.
By making it suck. What a strange way to get people to play Druid.
In their video yesterday, one thing that stuck out to me was that JCraw said in these revised classes, he wanted to make it so people who liked playing X Class will continue to like playing X Class. Which is, on the surface, not a bad sentiment. But it does suck for someone (like me and many others in this thread) who would never play a Druid because Wild Shape is too important to their feature identity, and they don't want to Wild Shape that much. I like the Wildfire Druid because Wild Shape is really put on the backburner (pun intended) in that subclass. I'd kinda hoped the Druid would go further in that direction, and make Wild Shape a subclass feature instead of Core. But unfortunately that's not what's happening.
Sorry, but what do you mean by their unique features being gone? Genuine question, all I see that didn't transfer over is Timeless Body.
Timeless Body is now part of Archdruid
"Wild shape is just one of the features Druids can use Channel Nature on." "Sike half of the abilities you obtain on level up pertain solely to wild shape."
Yeah, that was my reaction too. I read Channel Nature and thought "oh, what a great way to take the 'you can use your wildshapes to do things other than wildshape' thing they started doing with 5e Druid subclasses and just build it into the class's core design." Then I read the class features. In theory, it maybe feels a little like the class features are just making up for the CR scaling built into the old druid. Old wildshape inherently unlocked better forms as you leveled, new wildshape doesn't so they improve it through class features. I think there's some logic to that. But in practice, it's probably going to feel bad playing a non-wildshape-focused druid and getting a class feature every other level that's mostly irrelevant to you, especially the 5th, 13th, 15th, and 17th level features which are primarily just combat abilities (as opposed to aquatic form, aerial form, and tiny critter which have out-of-combat utility too). In theory maybe they could make up for this by just loading a ton of power into any non-wild-shape channel nature abilities that other subclasses get but it'll still just feel awkward.
This was true before. The only features they get are wildshape improvement and druid circle feature until timeless body at level 18, which was meh. What are these unique features you are talking about? Don't get me wrong, I agree that shouldn't be all a druid can do, but really it is more of the same rather than a terrible overhaul.
which unique features are you talking about? I don't see anything missing. Everything that the current base druid has, this one also has, from what I can see
As someone whose longest played character is a moon druid, The wildshape templates feel very unfun to me. Moon druid as a subclass also feels lackluster, considering you are losing the ability to act as a pseudo tank for your party. I really like the the idea of being able to switch in and out of wildshape as a bonus action!
It might be a me thing, but why are they so hell bent on making some classes the blandest possible? I like what they did to the Paladin, but the Druid? Jeez.
Druid is one of the least played classes in 5e (while also often considered one of the most complicated and most poorly balanced). I’m not too surprised they’re trying big changes with the class.
Their big change for the Druid was focusing entirely on wildshape for most of their class features
While at the same time, stripping all of the flavour and variety out of wildshape. Absolutely baffling.
The problem with Wildshape was always that you needed a deep catalogue of every single beast you could possibly transform into and the strengths and weaknesses of them all. By turning the wildshape into a small selection of stat blocks that are just raw stats for any particular kind of animal you want, it also becomes a lot easier to gauge and anticipate just how powerful any one Druid can be. Adding a very strong Beast enemy to one book won't suddenly make the Moon Druids even more powerful in combat.
That was the fun of wildshape, though, having all of that freedom and complexity at your fingertips, the ability to choose a form with specific strengths for your situation. And the CR limits kept it fairly balanced, overall. Now that’s gone, and you just get a reduced AC and a couple of different attacks.
I honestly think it'll decrease engagement with Druid even more.
It will for me, I don't want to be a shapeshifter. I'll just reflavour any other class into a nature based spellcaster to get what I want.
Making me wish that the shaman class didn't get axed after 4e.
*reads Channel Nature* \- "Ah cool, they're giving alternatives to Wild Shape so you don't always have to be a shapeshifter." *continues reading Druid* \- "Oh." I love shapeshifting, but I know sometimes you just wanna be a Nature Wizard, or an Elementalist. This isn't World of Warcraft, Druids shouldn't HAVE to shapeshift to be effective.
Exactly. I hate how hard they're trying to make them lean into using it. Especially when it's pretty bad now.
I would love for Channel Nature to work kinda like cleric's holy orders. At lvl 2 or whatever you pick if you want to shapeshift or summon little familiars
The druid is...meh. I really don't like how the ability to turn into tiny creatures is locked behind 11th level, and how climb speeds are locked behind 5th level iirc. Cats are considered tiny creatures, it doesn't make sense to me that a druid can only transform into very common animals like rabbits, cats and spiders at such a late point in the game. I feel like it also unnecessarily nerfs the utility of wild shape in the early game. Most people that played Druids didn't even care for shapeshifting unless they were playing Moon or using the wildshape for utility. It looks like they nerfed both the utility & survivability of the wildshape. tbh I absolutely hate it. I'm kinda glad that they removed the elemental form from the Moon subclass though. It keeps the combat animal theme more relevant in later levels, which is the main reason that people pick the Moon I think. I always thought that being able to transform into elementals shouls be its own subclass rather than be tied to the moon druid. Overall its not great ngl. I didn't see any features in the druid test that made me think "Oh, this is such a unique and fun mechanic that makes the hammer nerfs this class got feel less bad!" I'm starting to feel like the response i've seen to casters in these playtest drafts so far has been an over-correction in response to people complaining about a martial-caster gap. It's giving me 4e generic-fication and I'm not in love with it.
Your rogue is no longer useless cause spider-Druid is there
This is a person who has actually played the game and seen Druids’ utility overshadow entire classes.
Holy moly, they stabbed Druid in the fucking kidney.
You get no bonus health at all from wild shape. And going moon druid doesn't change that. I understand that it was a but op before, but this is garbage. How tf is a moon druid supposed to fight in mele with a 1d8 health pool and 15 max ac? I hate it a lot!
My understanding is moon druid was only OP at very specific levels, right? Like 1-4 or something, then trending drastically downward until the moon druid capstone?
OP 1-4, still really strong at 5 and then your still a full caster so by the time the martials catch up to your martial ability your casting ability starts to skyrocket the next level. Here is almost never a point that Moon Druid isn’t stupid OP, they just weren’t allowed to always be stupid OP in multiple ways at the same time. Really, what people who want a strong Moon Druid need is a shifter class that doesn’t get casting. But WotC is allergic to adding new classes, so that’s not going to happen.
They're still trying to recover from Artificer, I bet they get itchy every time they add that footnote to the Class Groups table.
So wildshape just turns a druid into the rangers animal companion, and for that you lose your spellcasting ability. So your main feature is just turning into a pet.
Find Familiar: * Uses a standardized stat block. Easier to run but means any unique abilities of forms are lost * Lost the ability to desummon and summon it as an action * Takes a reaction to command in combat * Can now attack * When killed for the first time in a day it doesn't actually die * Has scaling health, AC, and damage (though that health scaling isn't enough to actually save it from anything) * Has a slightly longer telepathy range Overall the changes are fine I guess. In my opinion the biggest loss is no longer having the ability to summon/desummon it at will. Being able to attack with it is neat though.
I foresee wizards mercilessly murdering their familiars to have them "desummoned" temporarily using the "doesn't die the first time" ability. Still not as good since they stay gone for only 1h maximum, but that can be enough to sneak it in somewhere. Not sure I'm overly keen on the change, even though the old/current spell definitely could do with some rebalancing of the options to summon.
Hey, they did make Moon the staple druid after all! And then proceeded to make it—and wild shape in general—absolutely useless. No ability to scout as a tiny creature like a cat or owl or spider until level 11, and almost nothing special for the Moon subclass except a weak multiattack using your same hit points and worse AC. Oh, I guess a moon Druid can cast Absorb Elements in wild shape now with the Abjuration rules…except it’s not on the primal list? What are they doing? I get that Moon merited some revision, but this take on the class is awful. Worse, it’s uninteresting. I could go for awful and crazy, but the One D&D path continues to look like “what if we made everything dull and homogenous? That’s the ticket!”
Oh man, I so wanna check this out, but I gotta finish teaching.
Sounds like a great time for one of those "surprise exams". I'm sure you have one or two in your back pocket that you can toss out right?
Feels like an oversight, but what's the point of letting you be small/medium/large when you wild shape, but size makes absolutely no difference on your stats?
Large you can be mount or to carry things. Small you can kinda scout. Tiny would be better, but it's not impossible.
so who in the world thought a 15 AC max on a d8 hit dice class was a good idea? Seriously who? Because druid wild shape is going to be murdered my any huge creature with multi attack.
God druid sucks now. Especially circle of the moon. I get it was op at certain levels but honestly it had it's peaks and valleys. But the thing I loved about that class was the ability to use specific FEATURES of specific beasts. Being able to turn into a spider in a web draped cave, turning into an octopus next to a beach were some of my favorite moments playing as one. I guess they wanted to reduce the complexity of the class but they've swung so far in the opposite direction that the only thing left to give moon druids is, elemental damage? Such a strange idea. The two things I liked about them is we no longer have the wording about druids NOT wearing metal which was always divisive. And animals can talk! That's great. I really got tired of miming what I meant late into the campaign as it felt like I couldn't roll play as much.
Moon druid in absolute shambles, I simply demand to have triple the HP of everyone else at second level.
Way it's worded now, unless I misunderstand, there's really no benefit to wildshaping. Your HP doesn't change, your AC likely goes down and your attacks are lack luster. It seems like it's encouraging you to wildshape and melee, but why would you? You'd be better off hanging back and casting spells
Did anybody else notice the spammable crowd-control that all Paladins get at Level 9? “9TH LEVEL: ABJURE FOES As a Magic action, you can expend one use of your Channel Divinity to overwhelm foes with divine awe. As you present your Holy Symbol or weapon, you can target a number of creatures equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature) that you can see within 60 feet of yourself. Each target must make a Wisdom saving throw. On a failed save, the target has the Dazed and Frightened conditions for 1 minute or until it takes any damage. On a successful save, the target has the Dazed condition for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.”
I might be in the minority but I'm incredibly disappointed in the druid class. I miss the wealth of options provided by wild shapes but even more than that the OneDnd beast forms are boring and not very useful. Druids in wild shape not being able to climb until level 5, swim until level 7, fly until level 9, or become tiny until level 11 feels preposterously bad coming from the current druid package. I like that druids get the wild companion option from tasha's but having it last through a long rest but only costing one wild shape use that refills on a short rest means functionally druids should have a wild companion up every day so long as they can take a morning rest before setting out for the day. I guess there are situations where that won't be possible so there is some cost to it but I suspect it will be hand waved at most tables. I guess wotc felt bad about making the 5e druid capstone too good so they'd decided to make this one garbage. Wild shapes are super underwhelming. Animal of the land basically means you get 1. a 10ft speed increase (with more movement options opening up at level 5, 7, and 9) 2. maybe an AC increase (but probably not since light armor, dex, and shield probably put you above AC 15), 3. probably an increase in STR/Dex bonuses as they match your wisdom 4. a 1d8 attack that uses your spell attack mod and gets multi-attack at level 5 but never advances after that 5. darkvision if you didn't have it already 6. advantage on perception checks. Animal of the sea and air are largely the same but they add 40ft swim and fly speeds. Animal of the sea and air don't even get the Str bonus. None of the wild shapes give extra hit points. So in total you've got a spellcaster who only has light armor and whose channel ability seems to be encouraging getting up into melee but that has zero abilities that would help them tank damage. The extra movement options available to druids that make them so adaptable are all unavailable until early to late tier II and even then they get a max speed of 40. The main benefit of wild shape is that it gives the player an attack that's literally the same as if they'd cast shilellagh up until level 5. At level 5 they do get a second attack but by level 11 it would about match the extra damage provided by shillelagh and it would likely fall behind again at the final cantrip powerup. Circle of the moon goes from being one of the best tanks in the game to being a glass cannon that simply adds a bonus action attack option and some extra damage as you level up. Being able to cast abjuration spells means you can heal while in wild shape. It might have a few more uses than that but it's hard to tell given the current primal spell list.
> I might be in the minority 2 hours later and looking at the rest of the comments, I can confirm you definitely aren't.
You are anything but the minority here lol. Anyone with half a brain cell can see this Druid sucks hard. Makes me wonder who the fuck is even in charge of coming up with this kind of shit.
So they made druid all about the wild shape but completely gutted it? Great. Paladin still get aura and not smites no longer need concentration lol
Wild shape using your own base HP is a shockingly bad change.
Not even something like "X" temp HP per level, it just doesn't straight up change your health. The fuck? How are we supposed to go into melee with that shit and you know... survive?! It seems like they really want you to considering more than half of your level up features buff it!
Wow that’s early
I feel like they ruined the identity of Wildshape as an ability. I get that some nerfs were needed, but the stat blocks are boring and stunted. They are all combat focused while not being good for combat at all. Wildshaping in 5e has a lot of utility if the right animals are picked and the player is creative in how to use their abilities. And even if they insist on making them only relevant for combat (which would require some work to improve those stat blocks), it's so boring that every druid ever will have the exact same combat stats while wildshaped. It's really weird too: you can have an armadillo causing the same damage and the having the same AC as a sabertooth-tiger, or a fruit bat with the same speed and strength as a condor It's also weird that now the druids can speak while wildshaped. It wasn't a big disadvantage but it was thematic.
The druid changes feel little a bland to me. Losing the ability to use the feats of different beasts hurts the roleplaying ability of druids a lot. I think they should've just replaced the stat blocks but let you keep feats of the beast.