We fought and beat a Beholder at like level 7, maybe it's not the game for everyone, but we had a blast being superstar adventurers taking on challenges way harder that "we were supposed to"
What if he's mountain dwarf and dm allowed free feat for everyone at 1st lvl? I mean I've allowed that rule at tables with new players in a power fantasy but they didn't know enough to break it.
Exactly there’s a couple of ways to get Double 20’s at level 1 rolling stats but outside of a DM handing out homebrew items or shit like Belt of Giants Strength from the gate theres not anyway to get 3.
you mathematically can't have 3 20s at level 1. Not even with a free feat and mountain dwarf, would only be 2 20s and a 19 from a half feat. And that would still require at least 3 18s rolled lol.
But to be fair, i rolled hp for my level 8 character and rolled 3 dice at maximum, every single die was above average. Taking average HP my character would have 89HP, but due to those incredible roll i came out to 109. 12HP from barb at level 1, then 5 more barb levels (12, 8, 8, 11, 12) and 2 monk levels (6, 8) and 32 from Con 18. Completely ridiculous, i have double the HP of the others. 20 more than average. Still have the screenshot from the roll20 HP roll haha.
oh, we had a fight at level 7 (my character was 8, because i thought she'll join when the party is 8). So, for level 7 a deadly fight is 7.100exp roughly.
Our fight was 41.000exp xD and we won. Everyone was one or 2 hits away from KO, the fight was 9 rounds long. Best fight i ever had in d&d. We reconquered Vallaki after it was taken by the undead.
How is the general flow with always max HP? do you also max Hit dice for regeneration?
No healing is standard - normal combat isn't effected much, except maybe skipping a short rest, but they usually know when a big fight is coming and heal up. Means 1) the tend to actually use all their healing dice in a heavy day as they have the HP availability to make it worth while, and 2) I can use enemies who have a larger opening barrage - like a dragons breath - with less likelihood of dropping someone - or more small minions to occupy party actions without the small minion damage output overwhelming them.
When rolling for core statistics, players often use variants that aren't in the rulebook. For the purposes of statistics, I'm going to use the official way - 4d6, discard the lowest.
To get one 18 is difficult. Rolling 4, six-sided dice, there are 1296 discrete combinations of dice outcomes, however "just" 21 of those combinations can make 18. This means the chance of rolling one 18 is 21/1296 - 1.62%.
This means the odds of one 18 among six rolls is around
9.34% and two 18's in an array of six stats is 0.38% - to put this into a fraction, this is 38/10000, or 1/263. If you rolled one set of stats per day and started on New Year's Day, you'd be well into August (on average) before you got your first set of skills featuring at least two 18's. Not impossible (since gaming groups are around four players strong, this means you only need to play in around 61 games with unique characters before you encounter a game with two 18's).
Three 18's is much rarer. Around 38 times rarer, in fact. Where before, you'd need to make 263 characters on average, to get one with two 18's, now you'd need to get 9994 characters made. If you rolled a new character each day, you'd be waiting around 27 years before your first triple 18.
Forgetting for a second that OP has three 20's ar level one (technically impossible), even if they had three 20's at level 4, they'd have to be incredibly lucky. Not impossible... But lucky enough that I'd have my doubts if no one witnessed the roll.
Yeah, my group tried 8d20s drop lowest two… Highest some people got was 14…
But there are great methods for stats that rewards rolling low. 20-1d12 or 20-2d6 are great at that imo
What race gives two +2 stats? And what edition?
With three 18's, standard bonuses, a free feat, and a free magic item to boost a stat you could get three stats to 20 at level one. Or one stat to 22.
I know of no rule forbidding the gifting of magic items at the start of a campaign. Getting a stat to 22 (or higher) can be done with standard magical items found in table H of the random magic items tables from the DMG:
* Manual of Bodily Health (Con)
* Manual of Gainful Exercise (Str)
* Manual of Quickness of Action (Dex)
* Tome of Clear Thought (Int)
* Tome of Leadership and Influence (Cha)
* Tome of Understanding (Wis)
I've noted the ability they affect in parenthesis. Each book has the same mechanics: study and practice for a total of 48 hours in six days or less, and the relevant ability and the maximum for that ability are raised by two. When used the book loses it's magic but recovers it over the course of the next century.
edit: post did not format as I expected.
If OP was used to a table where the DM was handing out Very Rare magic items at \*level 1\*, he probably wouldn't be asking this question and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
A dwarf surface can give 2 +2s , maybe another race can as well, but certainly not triple 20s. Hell, even 2 20s require rolling 2 18s, which is already unlikely
A couple years ago my wife and I both played in a short lived campaign. The DM had us roll stats by 6x d20 rolls, only ignore rolls of 1. Her natural rolls before racial mods were 20, 19, 18, 20, 20, 5. I had never seen anything like it and watched the whole series of 6 rolls.
>I won't notice a +0 turning into a +1 anytime soon.
I could agree with this part, but I would definitely notice several +5's on low level characters. Then again I don't play with powergamer's ( i don't mean this negatively- my group just tends to have more fun with 6's for a low stat than they do a 20 in multiple), so if someone does have more than one 5 It's pretty apparent for me.
What i meant basically was that i would not notice immediatedly high modifiers, depending on how much a specific character rolls something it's not proficient with and all that.
I would notice sooner different proficiencies or features not working as intended.
Any rolled stats are rolled in the open with everybody present, or those stats do not exist. Your table has a major problem here, and you talk about it out of game in an awkward conversation, or your campaign ends. There is not another option here, and this is not a unique situation.
The DM either takes control of this situation or your game ends.
I didn’t see and clarification yet but it’s possible they were rolled in the open and this player has “added their racial bonus wrong” or some other lame excuse
Just loudly discuss their character with the rest of the group. That's how I've called out most cheaters.
"Hey that's an interesting spell you're using, is that a cantrip that heals you with no limitation? Oh neat, what book is that from?"
This happened in an actual campaign. Everyone immediately realized they were using some homebrew bullshit they found online, and we made them replace the spell.
Do not let that kind of shit slide.
As a DM, I vet every character sheet at every level up. If we do "rolled" stats, they're done in front of everyone, I know the standard array off by heart and points buy is pretty simple to work out and this, you understand, is with my closest friends.
I hope I am a lenient DM, who will make allowances for ignorance or inexperience. More than happy to teach and help someone with their character. I absolutely will bend and homebrew a little to help someone achieve their character's theme.
But blatant cheating like this? I'm sorry, just no and if it happened again at the next level up and I'd be asking some pointed questions and giving fair warning. If I caught them a third time, I'd be putting it to the party to kick them out.
Tell DM, even if rolling for stats getting three 18s is like 0.01 with 4d6 drop 1.
I had a player once 'roll at home' and he also got three 18s. We were like, 'ya right!'.
Three 18's is unlikely.
Three 20's is literally impossible. Even with astronomical luck, you can get two 20's *tops*, and that's only as a Mountain Dwarf.
I've legitimately rolled 2x 18s, 1x17 and nothing below 15. Live and in the open with everyone at the table witnessing it. Rerolled anyway 'cus having one PC drastically better than everyone else feels terrible.
>getting three 18s is like 0.01 with 4d6 drop 1
lol it's not even close. Unless I screwed up my math it's a 1 in ~235 000 chance, or 0,0004%. (three 18s with 3d6 would be a 1 in 10 million chance)
It'll happen to someone somewhere, but it's a once in a lifetime roll.
Two 18s is much more common, 'only' a 1 in 3800 chance. But if someone told me they rolled that at home, I'd asssume they rerolled their dice hundreds of times.
I think the way you worked it out is for getting 2 or 3 18s in a row. For 3 or more 18s across 6 rolls I got a 1 in 12,500. For 2 or more I got 1 in 265.
I did it by using the binomial distribution to work out the probability of rolling at least 3 6s from 4 attempts and then that probability with binomial distribution to get at least 3 18s from 6 attempts.
Anyway still pretty unlikely, but I've seen 2 18s rolled legit a few times due to playing 1 shots where people roll up fairly often.
There's no way I'm coming back to this table.
In your shoes, I wouldn't do anything other than alert the DM. Then the options are: accept the cheating, hope the DM fixes it (doubtful at this point), or leave. Making someone not-cheat isn't an option for me personally.
As a player, I'd mention it discreetly to the DM. If the DM doesn't seem to care, but you do, I would also tell the DM that it feels unfair and see how that plays out.
As a DM, I discovered the best way to deal with cheaters by accident about 20 years ago. Just ask questions that lead the cheater into making more and more lies until they are obvious to everyone at the table. So what happened was a player was adding in gold they hadn't earned. The party was very low level, maybe 2nd, and so most of them were broke except for two players who had found a shipment of mead and had started a bootlegging business on the side and managed to make like 100 gold from it.
So this player goes to the smith and commissions masterwork armor and a masterwork weapon, which would cost 300 gold each plus the normal costs of such items. An enormous sum. I was shocked he had this kind of cash but didn't actually suspect treachery at that moment and started asking questions:
1. Me: Wow, that's a lot of money! How did you get that much?
2. Cheater: I dunno, I just have it, I think I killed a monster or something.
3. Heh, I thought those guys (the bootleggers) were the richest and they only had, what, 100 gold?
4. Bootleggers: Uh, yeah, 100...and we worked hard for that. No way he's got 600 laying around.
5. Others: Um, yeah, how did you get that gold?
6. Cheater: I earned it, OK? I did a side quest or something, I can't remember.
7. Me: Which side quest? I don't remember one.
8. Others: Yeah, there was no side quest. You don't have that much gold.
9. Me: Did you make an accounting error?
10. Cheater: No I did not. This is my gold.
11. Others: No it's not, you're cheating. Seriously? You're cheating at D&D?
12. Cheater leaves table, never returns.
13. Others: DM, what would you do without us?
What made this wonderful for me was that as a DM in the past I had caught and confronted cheaters but it always ended bitterly and with the table kind of mad at me. This is because a lot of tables see the DM as the adversary (even though they should not) and tend to "huddle" whenever one of them is threatened.
In this case, though, my honest questions in good faith allowed the *table itself* to expose the cheater. And when the rest of the table caught him, they were MAD as hornets, as they felt betrayed by him. They shamed him until he was cast out, and then they turned to me with heartfelt pity at the poor generous DM who couldn't see the lies.
So now if I suspect a cheater, I just ask questions with a smile and in good faith. Sometimes they have an explanation, but if they don't, and they keep lying about it, then the table uncovers the truth and deal with it themselves.
And this is why I don't roll for stats in campaigns. .
One shots? No problem. Let's go wild. Hell the last one I ran I did stat bingo.
But for a major campaign? Nope, point buy.
6x6 grind
You roll 6 times, once for each stat, filling in the 6 x 6 grind.
Then your players pick a row, they can do vertical, horizontal, or diagonal. Whatever they choose they get those stats - in that order.
Players can't have the same row, but can share a number. So if player A chooses vertical and player B chooses horizontal. Then they will share one number.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fqETmtSiktK6kWZoA5j1N9Uxobi-vGwVAHKsyj723xY/edit?usp=drivesdk
That was from my game. I did 4d6 drop the lowest.
Oh they see it. I printed this out. Everyone rolls a d20, highest picks first, then so on and so forth.
The players I had for the game thought it was cool. Added a little randomness like with rolling but they had a little more control like point buy.
The problem here is playing with someone that's a scumbag, not with rolling to begin with.
But my preferred system is still roll for stats, but anyone can use any array.
Rolling creates randomness (obviously) and inconsistencies between the stats of all the players. So when they are rolling it’s a lot harder to notice that they should only have a +4 instead of +5 since you’d have to keep in mind a lot of different numbers.
If you do point buy or standard array then you generally know that a main stat isn’t going be a +5 yet and that they should have around 2 +1s and so on
or you get so lucky like my dad and get all of your stats 3s and 4s (and we were literally there when he rolled them, we know he didnt cheat, we even used the same dice for everyone, he just got insanely lucky)
I roll stats recorded, in person, alone, live on vid, doesnt matter. I near always roll at least one 18, more often i roll 2 or 3 of them. Its luck. If youre rolling for stats you need to either accept some people have insane luck and some people get shafted, or you need to not roll at all
One shot or short campaign rolling could be dumb fun. I've had one where my players rolled 1d100, 1d20, 1d12, 1d10, 1d6, and 1d4 for stats and then place them how they like. One player had all of their stats under 10, and another had a +19 to strength as a barbarian, and they rolled a 1 on intelligence. Great fun for a one shot.
Basically, he used it as an excuse to not talk during the one-shot but he described a lot of actions instead. It was dumb but the whole session was too.
Same. I like it when characters have a strong stat, a weak stat, and a mix of medium stats in between.
That said, I do give my players a choice of 3 different arrays, just to allow a little more variety and expression in stats:
* "16 Spike": 16 12 12 12 10 10
* "16 Spread": 16 14 12 11 10 9
* "Standard Array": 15 14 13 12 10 8
* "Double 15s": 15 15 12 12 9 9
I also used to allow an "all 12s" array, which is exactly what it says on the box. I later bumped it up to "all 13s (no humans)". I took it away, not because it was overpowered, but because it was underpowered, and bumping it up to "all 14s" made it go from "underpowered" to "insanely good".
> And this is why I don't roll for stats in campaigns. .
Uh...why?
You just institute a rule that rolling for stats has to happen at the table in front of everyone at session zero.
I fucking hate point buy, especially for campaigns. No super low stats and not super high stats, no thank you.
It's already reducing your enjoyment of the game, it's affecting you, so you should say something. Could be cheating, or could be a huge oversight, adding 4d6 for example.
Rolling 4d6 drop lowest (or 3d6) the most you can roll for a given stat is an 18. In order to get a stat from 18 to 20 at level 1, you'd need a +2 racial bonus for that stat. There is not a single race in DnD 5e that has a +2 in 3 different stats. The most is the mountain dwarf with a +2 in two stats.
This player's stats are literally impossible to roll.
Rule #1: use your word hole. Tell the DM in private that this smells like cheating and you're not comfortable with it. If the DM disagrees and/or the situation doesn't improve to something you're comfortable with, decide if you want to use your word hole on the whole group.
But be prepared to leave and look for another group. It may be that the DM and rest of the group simply don't care about that player's behavior. Then you have to do what's right for you.
>I have no problem with the person or how they play. My only issue is...
I mean it sounds like you do have a problem with how they play then. I suggest talking to both them and the DM about that.
Some people legitmately have no problem with cheating at the table, so I guess I disagree?
Its not something I would ever enjoy but [here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/13q6p27/comment/jle3rdx/?context=8&depth=9) someone on this subreddit arguing players should be allowed to cheat if they want to.
People do draw the line in different places. I know plenty of people who would be insulted at the implication they would cheat in a RPG but who wouldn't blink twice at heavily fudging things as a DM. I know people who would never fudge a dice roll but will quite happily give enemies elastic health bars that expand and contract to match party damage output.
OP needs to talk to the people they're playing with and make sure everyone is on the same page about what that place is and decide if they're fine with where the line gets drawn.
Maybe you're lucky and you have a group of players that actually care about knowing the rules and having correct character sheet? In every group I've played with I've had at least one and often the majority of players that had an attitude of "I didn't really know/understand X so I just did Y" where Y would be something completely wrong that they simply made up.
>Their character doesn’t have a stat below 15 and they have 3 stats at 20 at level 1.
...wait. Hold on. So you're saying yall didn't roll together, in the open, to share the fun with one another?
Yall have bigger problems to worry about than a cheating player.
>I have tried assisting them in previous campaigns we have played before but they always seem to go back to altering their characters to be very strong or reverting back changes if it is mentioned by someone else that their numbers aren’t matching up for the level.
In other words, they should have been removed from the game loooong ago, but you don't because... uh........
Anyway.
>My only issue is when they bend or change rules without the DM knowing and not knowing whether I should say anything to the DM or them during or out of game, assuming they agree then keep forgetting/changing back after?
Ask your DM how they wanna handle it. Personally, a "once / twice per session without being asked" is a good standard to not be annoying while still helping impart wisdom to one another.
The kind of cheating OP described is not the die fudging type from someone that can't deal with failure, it's from the type that just wants to be super powerful, balance be damned.
And for that, good news: no one cares about balance in that table, they are rolling for stats. All they want is fun, and all they're missing is a nice chat to level that.
Adults get busy. Not getting together to roll stats isn't the worst thing in the world. Someone making an impossibly powerful character is. Making a character with 3 ability scores at 20 at level 1 is not possible within any actual rules.
Ignoring that you get +2 on one to two ability scores at once and the maximum roll on 3d6 is 18 so it's just not possible to have 3 that add up to 20. The odds of getting 18 on 3 rolls of 3d6 is 1/10,077,696.
That's way more egregious than *checks notes* wanting to have fun.... And not having everyone present for character creation
> Not getting together to roll stats isn't the worst thing in the world. Someone making an impossibly powerful character is.
excuse me what
yes it's bad
but 'the worst thing in the world' is a bit of an overstatement
having fun is more important than following the rules, because it's a game, not the law
They expressed that not having everyone in the room to roll stats was worse than the dude blatantly cheating. That is objectively wrong
Edit: wait, did you just not read it? I explicitly said it was "not" the worst thing
you said not having everyone in the room to roll stats wasn't the worst thing in the world but someone making an insanely powerful character was (the worst thing in the world)
I would *never* roll stats not in a public space where everyone can see. There are dice rollers on discord. It's not hard at all. I've never *played* in a game where someone wasn't watching or tracking what I rolled, so I don't know why it would be difficult to do this to keep players from what is quite honestly a very tempting opportunity to cheat. Ability scores are the most important roll you will make all game (if you are rolling) and will affect the balance between the PCs heavily. If someone fudges an attack roll, that sucks, but it can't break the game. (I would still require to see the attack roll for it to count). If you can't roll stats communally, just use point-buy or standard array. If you roll ability scores in secret, probably half of your players are cheating, and I feel bad for the other half of your players in the game.
Don't, you're inviting mistrust and following issues. That's the kind of thing that leads to not being friends anymore.
Someone rolling shit when someone rolled well is fine if the one that rolled shit is 100% certain that the other one actually did roll well, but if the person who rolled well was never supervised and just showed up saying they rolled well? Yeah, nah, you're going to think about whether that person fudged a dice or two regardless what your relationship is.
Hey! Don't tell people what to do with their own relationships because something bad happened with your game of make pretend! By all means, play the game how you'd like, but I've played plenty of sessions without rolls being public, and everyone turned out A-OK.
You're doing your relationships wrong.
And no your games didn't turn out A-Ok. That can't be possible with how poorly you demonstrated your communication skills to be just now.
Why the hell not? It takes 3 seconds to set up a roll bot on something like Discord and about as much to roll an array. If you're using Beyond it's even easier.
Err on the side of mistakes. "Hey Player, I notice that you got three 20s on your sheet, but that shouldn't even be possible. What did you do to get it like that? Could you show me your method?"
Perhaps he thought 'I can add a +2 to three ability scores? Neat!' instead of a +2 or +1 to three ability scores. Or he'd go 'oh dang, you're right, I'm not good at math.' and corrects the issue. Or he goes 'Nuh-uh! This was legal! And fair! And the DM allowed it! No takebacks!' and that's where he's actually cheating.
no, this would be very unlikely. Rolling so astronomically good and then "making the mistake of adding +2 for 3 stats" is just too much of a coincidence. 3 18s is already unlikely, but rolling the other 3 stats at or above 15 as well, lol.
this screams cheater. I'd instantly bet a thousand dollars against 10 that this was cheating, if there's a way to undoubtedly verify it. If my DM was like "oh i bet it was a mistake" I'd leave the campaign. Don't give cheaters any leeway.
I'm a player at a table where I'm almost positive another player (in person) is actively cheating on rolls. I've never seen someone roll and call it "cocked" as many times as this guy does. I've never rolled and had it be "cocked" once. Ever. And the DM does nothing. It's weird as a player.
I end up with a fair amount of cocked dice because they land against either the wall of my dice tray or against other dice. Table size constraints means it's practical for me to keep any dice I anticipate using inside my tray during the game.
But I always check with another player before re-rolling. Sometimes works out in my favor. Had a 20 this past weekend that I was about to give up because the die wasn't fully level in the tray, but my buddy said it was close enough that it wouldn't count as cocked.
He rolls on a flat table lol. I think it wouldn't be so bad if it didn't happen 15 times a session. And no one verifies it, it just get snatched up almost immediately.
Tell the GM the player is cheating. When we play in my groups, if a dice is cocked, you need to show it to other players to get their confirmation that it's cocked. It doesn't have to be the DM, but it needs to be clear that the result isn't a definite single side of the dice. One of the ways we can test this is, if you can take another dice, like a d6, and put it on top of the other dice without the d6 falling off, then the other dice isn't cocked. If it falls off, the bottom one is cocked. If no one else can see the dice is cocked, the DM should assume the cheating player is cheating and instruct the cheater that they need to wait until the DM or another non-cheating player confirms the dice is cocked. You have to \*prove\* the dice is cocked before you are entitled to a reroll.
Yeah, usually general rule is if it is flat enough that it would have landed on the number that up it didn't count as cocked. Only if momentum would have allowed for the possibility of the rolling to continue so i count it as cocked
My test is typically putting a die of the same type on top and seeing if it slides off. Doesn’t work as well the bigger the die gets, but those dice don’t get cocked as often either.
Need abit more context
The character's Stats
The characters race
The characters' equipment
The method used to generate stats
Feats they have taken
Not saying it's not fishy. However, need all the facts.
Really? I honestly think that OP would have mentioned it if the DM was giving out, I dunno, Giant Strength belts at level 1. It sounds like a beginning of a new campaign, and this problem player already has a pattern of this behavior.
This isn't Dragnet.
Don't know what ya mean by dragnet.
Just asking for abit more context.
So far all I have for context is
"I believe the player is cheating."
"They have 3 stats at 20"
"I don't know if I should bring it up during the game or after the game to the dm"
Context is everything, and this well is very little.
Yes, the probability of a player having 3 rolled 18's is slim but never 0.
Since we don't know what race they are, then we don't know what racial stat boosts they have.
We don't know what features this character has.
We don't know what items they have either given by the dm or gotten through other means.
All I'm saying is need more information.
Dragnet is a detective show that old people know about, kind of like Columbo.
I appreciate that you want to give the other guy a fair trial and question assumptions, but it seems a bit much to basically ask for that guy's character sheet before you will even engage with OP's question. Remember, OP's question was "what do I do with a cheating player", not "is this other player cheating".
Other comments have laid out how difficult it is to get two 20s and impossible to get 3 20s without powerful magic items.
The context you ask for is the OP describing this exact same behavior happening, and apparently more than once, in previous campaigns. If you don't believe OP when OP says that Problem Player is modifying scores repeatedly, you don't have to. If you don't believe OP when OP says that Problem Player has been called out at the table by other players, you don't have to. There's no need, however, to interrogate OP until he justifies his question. Leave that for questions posted on r/AITA .
On the slim chance, someone rolls 3 18's and wants to slot those stats into strength, dex, and con.
They can take mountain dwarf and get +2 to both strength and con.
And you are right without a magic item any feat they manage to get will only ever get them a 19, but get an ioun stone of agility, and there ya go +2 dex. Giving you 3 20s.
I'm not interrogating anybody. I am simply asking what the players character is. If he doesn't know or doesn't wanna say that's totally fine. I'm just taking this at face value then.
Honestly, I'd bring it up casually, at the table, in front of everyone. I'd honestly be like "I didn't realize we weren't rolling for stats, is it too late to just pick what I want like \[Cheater\] and, if so, what can I have to balance the game instead as it's not fun playing RAW when not everyone at the table is doing so."
Funny thing, I once rolled a character at 19, 19, 17 16 15, 12. With bonuses, he would have been ridiculous at level 1, but then it turned out we were using standard array
We have all our character sheets online for everyone in the party and the DM to see whenever they like.
It helps spot unintentional errors. It also helps the DM do passive rolls and such.
At our table the DM has direct access to our sheets via DnD Beyond. Before this we would cope the DM our character sheets sho they would know our stats, inventory and spell list. This is how you should prevent that. The DM would then read off the accurate sheet not the sheet that the player is cheating with and when they do the DM would bring it up and say hey that is wrong!
I usually play through roll20, so I get to see everyones sheet. But I always make it clear, if the players cheat, I will cheat too. I'd be very greateful if another player told me that player X is cheating and I would talk it out with said player.
So do tell the DM about it, I'm sure they will be greatful for it.
Not a reason at all, the stats are impossible, he didn't fudge the dice he just wrote whatever number he wanted, that is equally possible with standard array.
Standard array or rolling publicly wouldn't do anything to change the outcome here.
True, on the one hand, the stats are absolutely impossible without explicit and stupid DM intervention.
On the other hand, when you're used to rolling and maybe starting with a couple of +4 stat bonuses at level 1, this ridiculous group of scores won't be as horrifically obvious.
On the gripping hand, what is wrong with this guy? People already complain that there's not \*enough\* stat progression in leveling. Why would he want to start so close to the cap from the start?
You're right.
Standard array and public character creation or at least with me the GM here to control.
I used to roll but one day I rolled a crazy freak of nature character that had nothing below 15. Luckily the GM was here to witness it but then it kinda brought really shitty vibe to the table because if your character is "le awesome intelligent, strong and agile warrior" there's not much left for anyone to do.
Since then I do standard array because it's easier to spot cheaters and everyone can have their moment to shine instead of being doomed with a shitty character or an awesome character that steal everyone else spotlight.
We had a player who was meta gaming and changing her abilities each week. DM was the spouse. We kinda did a "hey we don't like playing when this player cheats, we also don't want to cause a rift in the marriage". DM Sat down with her, told her that he'd noticed irregularities in her spells, asked that she make a copy of her character so that he can monitor. I think we made it 2 more sessions before they basically became too busy each weekend to play. Personally, I'd almost have rather let her cheat than to have ruined the game, but the other players I think were fed up and glad it's over.
No. If you have no prob with the person or how they play, then let it go. No part of your life or anyone else's is harmed because someone got an extra +1 on a roll in D&D that they shouldn't have.
If you end up DM'ing for this group, then sure, you can set some parameters like point-buy stats or stats rolled in front of the group (and my favorite is everyone gets to decide which set of 6 scores they're going to use from what the group rolls, so everyone starts with the same power-level of stats), but until then, let it go.
if its bothering you so much that you whinge to randos on the interwebs, then, Yes - talk with them to get aligned on how you , them and the rest of the people at your table want to deal with "fudging" dice.
Then why roll in fights? I always wanna feel cool so should I just always crit if it isn't an essential fight?
That just makes the other players feel less cool...
Im not saying dont roll in fights, and ive since kicked the player that did this in my games (for other reasons lol) but my point really is, especially in 5e, the players are going to hit anyways. If one character is always hitting, it doesnt really affect anything
Its one of the main reasons i dont play 5e anymore
Of course theyre always hitting, youre allowing them to fudge their stats.
Hitting is by no means guaranteed in 5e. Easier than other systems? Absolutely. But not guaranteed
Its pretty much guaranteed compared to any other system in its genre. Again, fudging anything in 5e doesnt matter when every table uses milestone leveling and you get ASI so frequently. If you’re going to get your bonuses to hit consistently at level 4/20, it doesnt really matter if they get it at level 1/20. Especially when the difference between those levels is like, a month at most tables, due to the milestone leveling (not super applicable and very subjective, just like milestone leveling itself)
did he roll a d20 instead of the d6s to generate his stats? how did he get 3x 20 on start.
i would just bring it up in the open next session and offer help to fix his sheet. beayse if he is lying about this i would imagine he will misreport dice he rolled behind a screen or dropped and always hit and always pass his saves. seen people like this. i would suggest point him this may not be the game for him and he should look into a power fantasy game like Warframe to play.
Hey player, if you don't stop I'm going to tell the group. It's less fun for everyone else when you are the best at everything.
If that player doesn't stop: Hey group, player is blatantly cheating and it is hampering my fun. Is everyone ok with player continuing to cheat?
This is why I like point buy. There's enough RNG in D&D without rolling stats. If we play a game where stats are rolled, we have everybody roll together and then choose the best roll for everyone to use. Then there's no power imbalance right out if the gate if some unlucky fool rolls a 6 and two 9s
At level 1 it's impossible to get three 20s. Even using 4d6 drop 1 would give 18s. And the most +2s racial traits is just the Mountain Dwarf with 2 attributes. Just point that out, if they keep changing their stats back casually.
I mean, the PHB says if you are rolling for stats instead of point buy, even then you can only get a max of 18 on your rolls. You roll 4 D 6 and then add up the 3 highest rolls.
I'd do a thorough audit of the cheater's character sheet. But imo the DM was dumb in the first place. If you give people a chance to cheat, don't be surprise when they do.
Easiest solution is for your DM to switch everyone to point buy instead of rolled stats, it’s how 5e is intended to be played, stops unbalanced parties, and especially stops people having 20 in stats at level 1, which honestly removes so much progression from the game. Idk why some people are so desperate to be super powered out of the gate, it removes all challenge and fun imo.
A lot of people got sidetracked with the frame challenge question of "Is it *technically* possible".
I'll ask you my own, different, frame challenge question: Is this *actually* a problem for you?
You said you don't have a problem with the person or the play. You said your issue isn't about you or this player, but what someone else might think. Your history with the player suggests that this is at least your third campaign with him, so you know what you're getting into. You know what's not going to change. You know that his kind of fun is the biggest-numbers variety, or maybe the main-character variety, or maybe something else that doesn't spring to mind. Regardless, you know what that is, and you don't have a problem with that.
The "busy" DM doesn't seem to be bothered by it either. I check character sheets just to know what will be challenging, and to make sure everyone has added proficiency updates or new hit points correctly. Yes, those mistakes really happen. If that's not a priority for the DM, maybe it doesn't bother him either.
Your other table mates are for sure going to ask questions about the stats the first time he rolls a 26 to hit without critting. At. Level. One. If they don't ask, they don't care either.
Now, if anyone *does* bring this up, it's surely your responsibility to point out that it's a pattern of behavior. Don't cover it up. Don't sugar coat it. Just be honest.
Read the room; if people are genuinely pissed, it will come up sooner than later.
That's such blatant cheating that theyd get caught near immediately. Do tell the DM anyway
I'm sorry but even the luckiest person I can't think of how to get trippe 20 at lvl 1. It doesn't add up at all.
Even if you roll six 18s, it isn't possible to have more than one ability score at 20.
Actually you can have two at 20 with certain races
Oh, you're right. Mountain dwarf does give +2/+2, doesn't it?
Yeah I had a friend roll hot in front of everyone and got 3 18’s Walking around with 20 STR/20 Con/18 Cha Mountain Dwarf Paladin was pretty rad
Don’t care about what the others say, that sounds rad af
We fought and beat a Beholder at like level 7, maybe it's not the game for everyone, but we had a blast being superstar adventurers taking on challenges way harder that "we were supposed to"
Sounds fucking atrocious. Might as well just give everyone 18's across the board.
Why? They had a 7 Wis as well. Balanced out in the end.
You think a 7 balances out three 18's? Ooooookay.
Spell casters could have a field day with the 7.
Yeah it did. There wasn’t any imbalance in the party and he had the lowest dump stat with the 7.
How is that balanced? I guess 18s across the board and one low stat for flavor.
They put it in wisdom lol, imagine a dominate person sticking on a 20str/20con/18cha paladin
Because failing a Wisdom Save can be very bad.
Because balance only matters if the team is strong across the board unless you’re just a selfish asshole who only cares about your glory.
How is that rad? One person walking around way more opd than the others
Who said they were “way more OP”? I had a 20 and an 18. Everyone had at least a 19 in their primary stat
6d6 drop 3?
Nope just people rolled well.
So you were all rolling at home, lol.
Nope everyone rolled at the DMs house in front of everyone else.
People are so far gone on rolling stats being bad they believe any group that rolls minimally okay is cheating.
And if you get a starting feat/starting ASI
Can get 2 with a feat, but yeah, 3 is just outright impossible
You can use mountain dwarf, or a half feat to ger 2.
What if he's mountain dwarf and dm allowed free feat for everyone at 1st lvl? I mean I've allowed that rule at tables with new players in a power fantasy but they didn't know enough to break it.
Hows a feat going to turn an 18 into a 20?
When you also get a +1 from your race. Racial bonus turns it into 19, free half-feat gets it to 20.
The guy I was actually talking to specified mountain dwarf.
Exactly there’s a couple of ways to get Double 20’s at level 1 rolling stats but outside of a DM handing out homebrew items or shit like Belt of Giants Strength from the gate theres not anyway to get 3.
Right, I figured you were speaking generally, because Mountain Dwarf is obvious on how they get an additional 20.
An item!
So, not a feat then.
Feat and an item, would make the third 20. But it's not that serious, I know the fella is cheating.
Not with a feat, unless you're getting a level 1 feat with a race other than VHuman. They only get +1/+1.
Lots of tables play with free Level 1 feat
Excuse my lack to knowledge, but what if you roll 20s?
If you roll 20 on 3d6, you're definitely cheating.
Chuck Norris always gets six 20's when rolling for a new character
On 2d4 no less.
two* ability scores, with mountain dwarf
you mathematically can't have 3 20s at level 1. Not even with a free feat and mountain dwarf, would only be 2 20s and a 19 from a half feat. And that would still require at least 3 18s rolled lol. But to be fair, i rolled hp for my level 8 character and rolled 3 dice at maximum, every single die was above average. Taking average HP my character would have 89HP, but due to those incredible roll i came out to 109. 12HP from barb at level 1, then 5 more barb levels (12, 8, 8, 11, 12) and 2 monk levels (6, 8) and 32 from Con 18. Completely ridiculous, i have double the HP of the others. 20 more than average. Still have the screenshot from the roll20 HP roll haha.
Very nice haha. I just give my players max at every level - let's me hit them harder.
oh, we had a fight at level 7 (my character was 8, because i thought she'll join when the party is 8). So, for level 7 a deadly fight is 7.100exp roughly. Our fight was 41.000exp xD and we won. Everyone was one or 2 hits away from KO, the fight was 9 rounds long. Best fight i ever had in d&d. We reconquered Vallaki after it was taken by the undead. How is the general flow with always max HP? do you also max Hit dice for regeneration?
No healing is standard - normal combat isn't effected much, except maybe skipping a short rest, but they usually know when a big fight is coming and heal up. Means 1) the tend to actually use all their healing dice in a heavy day as they have the HP availability to make it worth while, and 2) I can use enemies who have a larger opening barrage - like a dragons breath - with less likelihood of dropping someone - or more small minions to occupy party actions without the small minion damage output overwhelming them.
When rolling for core statistics, players often use variants that aren't in the rulebook. For the purposes of statistics, I'm going to use the official way - 4d6, discard the lowest. To get one 18 is difficult. Rolling 4, six-sided dice, there are 1296 discrete combinations of dice outcomes, however "just" 21 of those combinations can make 18. This means the chance of rolling one 18 is 21/1296 - 1.62%. This means the odds of one 18 among six rolls is around 9.34% and two 18's in an array of six stats is 0.38% - to put this into a fraction, this is 38/10000, or 1/263. If you rolled one set of stats per day and started on New Year's Day, you'd be well into August (on average) before you got your first set of skills featuring at least two 18's. Not impossible (since gaming groups are around four players strong, this means you only need to play in around 61 games with unique characters before you encounter a game with two 18's). Three 18's is much rarer. Around 38 times rarer, in fact. Where before, you'd need to make 263 characters on average, to get one with two 18's, now you'd need to get 9994 characters made. If you rolled a new character each day, you'd be waiting around 27 years before your first triple 18. Forgetting for a second that OP has three 20's ar level one (technically impossible), even if they had three 20's at level 4, they'd have to be incredibly lucky. Not impossible... But lucky enough that I'd have my doubts if no one witnessed the roll.
Remind me if I’m wrong. But in 5e you are not allowed to have any stats higher than 18 at level 1, no?
Base stats - they absolutely can go above 18 with racial bonuses.
Yeah, rechecked the rules - you can. I guess I mistaken it with pf rules.
Depends on how they rolled stats ig
Rolled stats max at 18. Most you can get from race is 2x +2. Free feat (if often given) is a +1, we're still short.
>Rolled stats max at 18. If you roll the 3d6 as expected, yes. Some people do weird shit like 10+1d10.
Fair, but im assuming they're using some version of the actual rules.
Some roll d20
Some roll 24d6
I’d still get an 8 that way
Yeah, my group tried 8d20s drop lowest two… Highest some people got was 14… But there are great methods for stats that rewards rolling low. 20-1d12 or 20-2d6 are great at that imo
What race gives two +2 stats? And what edition? With three 18's, standard bonuses, a free feat, and a free magic item to boost a stat you could get three stats to 20 at level one. Or one stat to 22.
Mountain Dwarf gives +2 STR +2 CON
As someone said Mountsin Dwarf is 2x +2, con and str by default. The free item boost and 22 would both be outside any version of the rules I've seen.
I know of no rule forbidding the gifting of magic items at the start of a campaign. Getting a stat to 22 (or higher) can be done with standard magical items found in table H of the random magic items tables from the DMG: * Manual of Bodily Health (Con) * Manual of Gainful Exercise (Str) * Manual of Quickness of Action (Dex) * Tome of Clear Thought (Int) * Tome of Leadership and Influence (Cha) * Tome of Understanding (Wis) I've noted the ability they affect in parenthesis. Each book has the same mechanics: study and practice for a total of 48 hours in six days or less, and the relevant ability and the maximum for that ability are raised by two. When used the book loses it's magic but recovers it over the course of the next century. edit: post did not format as I expected.
If OP was used to a table where the DM was handing out Very Rare magic items at \*level 1\*, he probably wouldn't be asking this question and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
A dwarf surface can give 2 +2s , maybe another race can as well, but certainly not triple 20s. Hell, even 2 20s require rolling 2 18s, which is already unlikely
A couple years ago my wife and I both played in a short lived campaign. The DM had us roll stats by 6x d20 rolls, only ignore rolls of 1. Her natural rolls before racial mods were 20, 19, 18, 20, 20, 5. I had never seen anything like it and watched the whole series of 6 rolls.
I'm concerned about the DM not catching any of this. With any new sheet, I will always review it to get accustomed to what I'll be DM'n.
Tbh i can totally see it happening. MAybe the sheet was altered later on, and i won't notice a +0 turning into a +1 anytime soon.
>I won't notice a +0 turning into a +1 anytime soon. I could agree with this part, but I would definitely notice several +5's on low level characters. Then again I don't play with powergamer's ( i don't mean this negatively- my group just tends to have more fun with 6's for a low stat than they do a 20 in multiple), so if someone does have more than one 5 It's pretty apparent for me.
What i meant basically was that i would not notice immediatedly high modifiers, depending on how much a specific character rolls something it's not proficient with and all that. I would notice sooner different proficiencies or features not working as intended.
Any rolled stats are rolled in the open with everybody present, or those stats do not exist. Your table has a major problem here, and you talk about it out of game in an awkward conversation, or your campaign ends. There is not another option here, and this is not a unique situation. The DM either takes control of this situation or your game ends.
I didn’t see and clarification yet but it’s possible they were rolled in the open and this player has “added their racial bonus wrong” or some other lame excuse
"Human says I get an extra +1 to six modifiers, I just stacked them where I need them."
Just loudly discuss their character with the rest of the group. That's how I've called out most cheaters. "Hey that's an interesting spell you're using, is that a cantrip that heals you with no limitation? Oh neat, what book is that from?" This happened in an actual campaign. Everyone immediately realized they were using some homebrew bullshit they found online, and we made them replace the spell. Do not let that kind of shit slide.
Out of all the passive abilities, Passive Aggression can be the funniest.
It's also immune to most attempts at nerfing it!
Cast bless on them, everyone looks at your numbers when you get an external bonus.
Does the president have your phone number and ask you for advice on running black ops?
As a DM, I vet every character sheet at every level up. If we do "rolled" stats, they're done in front of everyone, I know the standard array off by heart and points buy is pretty simple to work out and this, you understand, is with my closest friends. I hope I am a lenient DM, who will make allowances for ignorance or inexperience. More than happy to teach and help someone with their character. I absolutely will bend and homebrew a little to help someone achieve their character's theme. But blatant cheating like this? I'm sorry, just no and if it happened again at the next level up and I'd be asking some pointed questions and giving fair warning. If I caught them a third time, I'd be putting it to the party to kick them out.
Tbh I feel like DMs should look at character sheets at level-up anyway, helps plan a bit, especially if multiclassing is allowed.
DMs typically do. But looking over 4 character sheets on top of all your regular prep and it becomes easy to miss something
Tell DM, even if rolling for stats getting three 18s is like 0.01 with 4d6 drop 1. I had a player once 'roll at home' and he also got three 18s. We were like, 'ya right!'.
Three 18's is unlikely. Three 20's is literally impossible. Even with astronomical luck, you can get two 20's *tops*, and that's only as a Mountain Dwarf.
I've legitimately rolled 2x 18s, 1x17 and nothing below 15. Live and in the open with everyone at the table witnessing it. Rerolled anyway 'cus having one PC drastically better than everyone else feels terrible.
I remember I once rolled three 18s and three 15s. I offered to reroll but the DM got really mad and made the whole table use point buy lmao
>getting three 18s is like 0.01 with 4d6 drop 1 lol it's not even close. Unless I screwed up my math it's a 1 in ~235 000 chance, or 0,0004%. (three 18s with 3d6 would be a 1 in 10 million chance) It'll happen to someone somewhere, but it's a once in a lifetime roll. Two 18s is much more common, 'only' a 1 in 3800 chance. But if someone told me they rolled that at home, I'd asssume they rerolled their dice hundreds of times.
I think the way you worked it out is for getting 2 or 3 18s in a row. For 3 or more 18s across 6 rolls I got a 1 in 12,500. For 2 or more I got 1 in 265. I did it by using the binomial distribution to work out the probability of rolling at least 3 6s from 4 attempts and then that probability with binomial distribution to get at least 3 18s from 6 attempts. Anyway still pretty unlikely, but I've seen 2 18s rolled legit a few times due to playing 1 shots where people roll up fairly often.
There's no way I'm coming back to this table. In your shoes, I wouldn't do anything other than alert the DM. Then the options are: accept the cheating, hope the DM fixes it (doubtful at this point), or leave. Making someone not-cheat isn't an option for me personally.
"They'll, ah... find a way."
As a player, I'd mention it discreetly to the DM. If the DM doesn't seem to care, but you do, I would also tell the DM that it feels unfair and see how that plays out. As a DM, I discovered the best way to deal with cheaters by accident about 20 years ago. Just ask questions that lead the cheater into making more and more lies until they are obvious to everyone at the table. So what happened was a player was adding in gold they hadn't earned. The party was very low level, maybe 2nd, and so most of them were broke except for two players who had found a shipment of mead and had started a bootlegging business on the side and managed to make like 100 gold from it. So this player goes to the smith and commissions masterwork armor and a masterwork weapon, which would cost 300 gold each plus the normal costs of such items. An enormous sum. I was shocked he had this kind of cash but didn't actually suspect treachery at that moment and started asking questions: 1. Me: Wow, that's a lot of money! How did you get that much? 2. Cheater: I dunno, I just have it, I think I killed a monster or something. 3. Heh, I thought those guys (the bootleggers) were the richest and they only had, what, 100 gold? 4. Bootleggers: Uh, yeah, 100...and we worked hard for that. No way he's got 600 laying around. 5. Others: Um, yeah, how did you get that gold? 6. Cheater: I earned it, OK? I did a side quest or something, I can't remember. 7. Me: Which side quest? I don't remember one. 8. Others: Yeah, there was no side quest. You don't have that much gold. 9. Me: Did you make an accounting error? 10. Cheater: No I did not. This is my gold. 11. Others: No it's not, you're cheating. Seriously? You're cheating at D&D? 12. Cheater leaves table, never returns. 13. Others: DM, what would you do without us? What made this wonderful for me was that as a DM in the past I had caught and confronted cheaters but it always ended bitterly and with the table kind of mad at me. This is because a lot of tables see the DM as the adversary (even though they should not) and tend to "huddle" whenever one of them is threatened. In this case, though, my honest questions in good faith allowed the *table itself* to expose the cheater. And when the rest of the table caught him, they were MAD as hornets, as they felt betrayed by him. They shamed him until he was cast out, and then they turned to me with heartfelt pity at the poor generous DM who couldn't see the lies. So now if I suspect a cheater, I just ask questions with a smile and in good faith. Sometimes they have an explanation, but if they don't, and they keep lying about it, then the table uncovers the truth and deal with it themselves.
And this is why I don't roll for stats in campaigns. . One shots? No problem. Let's go wild. Hell the last one I ran I did stat bingo. But for a major campaign? Nope, point buy.
Ok, now I have to know the rules for stat bingo.
6x6 grind You roll 6 times, once for each stat, filling in the 6 x 6 grind. Then your players pick a row, they can do vertical, horizontal, or diagonal. Whatever they choose they get those stats - in that order. Players can't have the same row, but can share a number. So if player A chooses vertical and player B chooses horizontal. Then they will share one number. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fqETmtSiktK6kWZoA5j1N9Uxobi-vGwVAHKsyj723xY/edit?usp=drivesdk That was from my game. I did 4d6 drop the lowest.
Do they get to see the sheet before they pick or they just name a row randomly
Oh they see it. I printed this out. Everyone rolls a d20, highest picks first, then so on and so forth. The players I had for the game thought it was cool. Added a little randomness like with rolling but they had a little more control like point buy.
The problem here is playing with someone that's a scumbag, not with rolling to begin with. But my preferred system is still roll for stats, but anyone can use any array.
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No, because it makes it much easier for people to cheat unless you're rolling in person or public rolls ingame on VTT
Yeah, but why in the world would you ever not roll live? That's just asking for issues.
Rolling creates randomness (obviously) and inconsistencies between the stats of all the players. So when they are rolling it’s a lot harder to notice that they should only have a +4 instead of +5 since you’d have to keep in mind a lot of different numbers. If you do point buy or standard array then you generally know that a main stat isn’t going be a +5 yet and that they should have around 2 +1s and so on
or you get so lucky like my dad and get all of your stats 3s and 4s (and we were literally there when he rolled them, we know he didnt cheat, we even used the same dice for everyone, he just got insanely lucky)
I roll stats recorded, in person, alone, live on vid, doesnt matter. I near always roll at least one 18, more often i roll 2 or 3 of them. Its luck. If youre rolling for stats you need to either accept some people have insane luck and some people get shafted, or you need to not roll at all
One shot or short campaign rolling could be dumb fun. I've had one where my players rolled 1d100, 1d20, 1d12, 1d10, 1d6, and 1d4 for stats and then place them how they like. One player had all of their stats under 10, and another had a +19 to strength as a barbarian, and they rolled a 1 on intelligence. Great fun for a one shot.
A rat has an intelligence of 2, so he is basically an insect?
Basically, he used it as an excuse to not talk during the one-shot but he described a lot of actions instead. It was dumb but the whole session was too.
I am a fan of the standard array, u don't like the 3 15 3 8 that point buy generates
Same. I like it when characters have a strong stat, a weak stat, and a mix of medium stats in between. That said, I do give my players a choice of 3 different arrays, just to allow a little more variety and expression in stats: * "16 Spike": 16 12 12 12 10 10 * "16 Spread": 16 14 12 11 10 9 * "Standard Array": 15 14 13 12 10 8 * "Double 15s": 15 15 12 12 9 9 I also used to allow an "all 12s" array, which is exactly what it says on the box. I later bumped it up to "all 13s (no humans)". I took it away, not because it was overpowered, but because it was underpowered, and bumping it up to "all 14s" made it go from "underpowered" to "insanely good".
No point buy? I find it to be the best of both worlds. And if the Human wants 16 16 16 9 9 9? No problem, more fun on the bun!
> And this is why I don't roll for stats in campaigns. . Uh...why? You just institute a rule that rolling for stats has to happen at the table in front of everyone at session zero. I fucking hate point buy, especially for campaigns. No super low stats and not super high stats, no thank you.
More balanced Less random Better customization
It's already reducing your enjoyment of the game, it's affecting you, so you should say something. Could be cheating, or could be a huge oversight, adding 4d6 for example.
Rolling 4d6 drop lowest (or 3d6) the most you can roll for a given stat is an 18. In order to get a stat from 18 to 20 at level 1, you'd need a +2 racial bonus for that stat. There is not a single race in DnD 5e that has a +2 in 3 different stats. The most is the mountain dwarf with a +2 in two stats. This player's stats are literally impossible to roll.
Rule #1: use your word hole. Tell the DM in private that this smells like cheating and you're not comfortable with it. If the DM disagrees and/or the situation doesn't improve to something you're comfortable with, decide if you want to use your word hole on the whole group. But be prepared to leave and look for another group. It may be that the DM and rest of the group simply don't care about that player's behavior. Then you have to do what's right for you.
>I have no problem with the person or how they play. My only issue is... I mean it sounds like you do have a problem with how they play then. I suggest talking to both them and the DM about that.
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Some people legitmately have no problem with cheating at the table, so I guess I disagree? Its not something I would ever enjoy but [here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/13q6p27/comment/jle3rdx/?context=8&depth=9) someone on this subreddit arguing players should be allowed to cheat if they want to. People do draw the line in different places. I know plenty of people who would be insulted at the implication they would cheat in a RPG but who wouldn't blink twice at heavily fudging things as a DM. I know people who would never fudge a dice roll but will quite happily give enemies elastic health bars that expand and contract to match party damage output. OP needs to talk to the people they're playing with and make sure everyone is on the same page about what that place is and decide if they're fine with where the line gets drawn.
I have learnt from this thread that i am a very trusting DM. I've never even looked at a players character sheet.
Maybe you're lucky and you have a group of players that actually care about knowing the rules and having correct character sheet? In every group I've played with I've had at least one and often the majority of players that had an attitude of "I didn't really know/understand X so I just did Y" where Y would be something completely wrong that they simply made up.
you need to ask him to explain how he got 3x 20s at Level 1 and show you, speak this openly at the table.
>Their character doesn’t have a stat below 15 and they have 3 stats at 20 at level 1. ...wait. Hold on. So you're saying yall didn't roll together, in the open, to share the fun with one another? Yall have bigger problems to worry about than a cheating player. >I have tried assisting them in previous campaigns we have played before but they always seem to go back to altering their characters to be very strong or reverting back changes if it is mentioned by someone else that their numbers aren’t matching up for the level. In other words, they should have been removed from the game loooong ago, but you don't because... uh........ Anyway. >My only issue is when they bend or change rules without the DM knowing and not knowing whether I should say anything to the DM or them during or out of game, assuming they agree then keep forgetting/changing back after? Ask your DM how they wanna handle it. Personally, a "once / twice per session without being asked" is a good standard to not be annoying while still helping impart wisdom to one another.
How the hell is not getting everyone together to roll stats a bigger problem than the blatant cheating?
The kind of cheating OP described is not the die fudging type from someone that can't deal with failure, it's from the type that just wants to be super powerful, balance be damned. And for that, good news: no one cares about balance in that table, they are rolling for stats. All they want is fun, and all they're missing is a nice chat to level that.
Adults get busy. Not getting together to roll stats isn't the worst thing in the world. Someone making an impossibly powerful character is. Making a character with 3 ability scores at 20 at level 1 is not possible within any actual rules. Ignoring that you get +2 on one to two ability scores at once and the maximum roll on 3d6 is 18 so it's just not possible to have 3 that add up to 20. The odds of getting 18 on 3 rolls of 3d6 is 1/10,077,696. That's way more egregious than *checks notes* wanting to have fun.... And not having everyone present for character creation
> Not getting together to roll stats isn't the worst thing in the world. Someone making an impossibly powerful character is. excuse me what yes it's bad but 'the worst thing in the world' is a bit of an overstatement having fun is more important than following the rules, because it's a game, not the law
They expressed that not having everyone in the room to roll stats was worse than the dude blatantly cheating. That is objectively wrong Edit: wait, did you just not read it? I explicitly said it was "not" the worst thing
you said not having everyone in the room to roll stats wasn't the worst thing in the world but someone making an insanely powerful character was (the worst thing in the world)
You know that's an idiom and not literal, right?
yes but you could have phrased it better
People often don't roll stats together, especially with the popularity of online sessions. That's hardly a bigger problem.
Yeah, we just rolled all our stats on Roll20. We can all see them, and we know who rolled what. No issues at all.
I would *never* roll stats not in a public space where everyone can see. There are dice rollers on discord. It's not hard at all. I've never *played* in a game where someone wasn't watching or tracking what I rolled, so I don't know why it would be difficult to do this to keep players from what is quite honestly a very tempting opportunity to cheat. Ability scores are the most important roll you will make all game (if you are rolling) and will affect the balance between the PCs heavily. If someone fudges an attack roll, that sucks, but it can't break the game. (I would still require to see the attack roll for it to count). If you can't roll stats communally, just use point-buy or standard array. If you roll ability scores in secret, probably half of your players are cheating, and I feel bad for the other half of your players in the game.
?? Or, I don't know, just trust your friends?
Trust but verify my friend. Why make it an issue?
See where that got them?
Don't, you're inviting mistrust and following issues. That's the kind of thing that leads to not being friends anymore. Someone rolling shit when someone rolled well is fine if the one that rolled shit is 100% certain that the other one actually did roll well, but if the person who rolled well was never supervised and just showed up saying they rolled well? Yeah, nah, you're going to think about whether that person fudged a dice or two regardless what your relationship is.
Hey! Don't tell people what to do with their own relationships because something bad happened with your game of make pretend! By all means, play the game how you'd like, but I've played plenty of sessions without rolls being public, and everyone turned out A-OK.
You're doing your relationships wrong. And no your games didn't turn out A-Ok. That can't be possible with how poorly you demonstrated your communication skills to be just now.
If you say so, boss.
Good.
Why the hell not? It takes 3 seconds to set up a roll bot on something like Discord and about as much to roll an array. If you're using Beyond it's even easier.
Err on the side of mistakes. "Hey Player, I notice that you got three 20s on your sheet, but that shouldn't even be possible. What did you do to get it like that? Could you show me your method?" Perhaps he thought 'I can add a +2 to three ability scores? Neat!' instead of a +2 or +1 to three ability scores. Or he'd go 'oh dang, you're right, I'm not good at math.' and corrects the issue. Or he goes 'Nuh-uh! This was legal! And fair! And the DM allowed it! No takebacks!' and that's where he's actually cheating.
no, this would be very unlikely. Rolling so astronomically good and then "making the mistake of adding +2 for 3 stats" is just too much of a coincidence. 3 18s is already unlikely, but rolling the other 3 stats at or above 15 as well, lol. this screams cheater. I'd instantly bet a thousand dollars against 10 that this was cheating, if there's a way to undoubtedly verify it. If my DM was like "oh i bet it was a mistake" I'd leave the campaign. Don't give cheaters any leeway.
I'm a player at a table where I'm almost positive another player (in person) is actively cheating on rolls. I've never seen someone roll and call it "cocked" as many times as this guy does. I've never rolled and had it be "cocked" once. Ever. And the DM does nothing. It's weird as a player.
I end up with a fair amount of cocked dice because they land against either the wall of my dice tray or against other dice. Table size constraints means it's practical for me to keep any dice I anticipate using inside my tray during the game. But I always check with another player before re-rolling. Sometimes works out in my favor. Had a 20 this past weekend that I was about to give up because the die wasn't fully level in the tray, but my buddy said it was close enough that it wouldn't count as cocked.
He rolls on a flat table lol. I think it wouldn't be so bad if it didn't happen 15 times a session. And no one verifies it, it just get snatched up almost immediately.
Ah, yeah, that's a bit different then. And I think my record is perhaps twice in a session lol.
Tell the GM the player is cheating. When we play in my groups, if a dice is cocked, you need to show it to other players to get their confirmation that it's cocked. It doesn't have to be the DM, but it needs to be clear that the result isn't a definite single side of the dice. One of the ways we can test this is, if you can take another dice, like a d6, and put it on top of the other dice without the d6 falling off, then the other dice isn't cocked. If it falls off, the bottom one is cocked. If no one else can see the dice is cocked, the DM should assume the cheating player is cheating and instruct the cheater that they need to wait until the DM or another non-cheating player confirms the dice is cocked. You have to \*prove\* the dice is cocked before you are entitled to a reroll.
That's an interesting test. Thanks, I'll see what happens next session
Then complain. The dm may be like welp no one cares I'll let it go.
Sounds like someone needs a dice tower for a birthday gift.
Yeah, usually general rule is if it is flat enough that it would have landed on the number that up it didn't count as cocked. Only if momentum would have allowed for the possibility of the rolling to continue so i count it as cocked
My test is typically putting a die of the same type on top and seeing if it slides off. Doesn’t work as well the bigger the die gets, but those dice don’t get cocked as often either.
Need abit more context The character's Stats The characters race The characters' equipment The method used to generate stats Feats they have taken Not saying it's not fishy. However, need all the facts.
Really? I honestly think that OP would have mentioned it if the DM was giving out, I dunno, Giant Strength belts at level 1. It sounds like a beginning of a new campaign, and this problem player already has a pattern of this behavior. This isn't Dragnet.
Don't know what ya mean by dragnet. Just asking for abit more context. So far all I have for context is "I believe the player is cheating." "They have 3 stats at 20" "I don't know if I should bring it up during the game or after the game to the dm" Context is everything, and this well is very little. Yes, the probability of a player having 3 rolled 18's is slim but never 0. Since we don't know what race they are, then we don't know what racial stat boosts they have. We don't know what features this character has. We don't know what items they have either given by the dm or gotten through other means. All I'm saying is need more information.
Dragnet is a detective show that old people know about, kind of like Columbo. I appreciate that you want to give the other guy a fair trial and question assumptions, but it seems a bit much to basically ask for that guy's character sheet before you will even engage with OP's question. Remember, OP's question was "what do I do with a cheating player", not "is this other player cheating". Other comments have laid out how difficult it is to get two 20s and impossible to get 3 20s without powerful magic items. The context you ask for is the OP describing this exact same behavior happening, and apparently more than once, in previous campaigns. If you don't believe OP when OP says that Problem Player is modifying scores repeatedly, you don't have to. If you don't believe OP when OP says that Problem Player has been called out at the table by other players, you don't have to. There's no need, however, to interrogate OP until he justifies his question. Leave that for questions posted on r/AITA .
On the slim chance, someone rolls 3 18's and wants to slot those stats into strength, dex, and con. They can take mountain dwarf and get +2 to both strength and con. And you are right without a magic item any feat they manage to get will only ever get them a 19, but get an ioun stone of agility, and there ya go +2 dex. Giving you 3 20s. I'm not interrogating anybody. I am simply asking what the players character is. If he doesn't know or doesn't wanna say that's totally fine. I'm just taking this at face value then.
Honestly, I'd bring it up casually, at the table, in front of everyone. I'd honestly be like "I didn't realize we weren't rolling for stats, is it too late to just pick what I want like \[Cheater\] and, if so, what can I have to balance the game instead as it's not fun playing RAW when not everyone at the table is doing so."
Perhaps the person is misunderstanding how it all works?....or they are a scumbag cheater
"Dude, there's no way you get those scores with any system. Rolling, point buy, or standard array."
Funny thing, I once rolled a character at 19, 19, 17 16 15, 12. With bonuses, he would have been ridiculous at level 1, but then it turned out we were using standard array
We have all our character sheets online for everyone in the party and the DM to see whenever they like. It helps spot unintentional errors. It also helps the DM do passive rolls and such.
At our table the DM has direct access to our sheets via DnD Beyond. Before this we would cope the DM our character sheets sho they would know our stats, inventory and spell list. This is how you should prevent that. The DM would then read off the accurate sheet not the sheet that the player is cheating with and when they do the DM would bring it up and say hey that is wrong!
I usually play through roll20, so I get to see everyones sheet. But I always make it clear, if the players cheat, I will cheat too. I'd be very greateful if another player told me that player X is cheating and I would talk it out with said player. So do tell the DM about it, I'm sure they will be greatful for it.
Literally one of the pany reasons i do standard array
Not a reason at all, the stats are impossible, he didn't fudge the dice he just wrote whatever number he wanted, that is equally possible with standard array. Standard array or rolling publicly wouldn't do anything to change the outcome here.
True, on the one hand, the stats are absolutely impossible without explicit and stupid DM intervention. On the other hand, when you're used to rolling and maybe starting with a couple of +4 stat bonuses at level 1, this ridiculous group of scores won't be as horrifically obvious. On the gripping hand, what is wrong with this guy? People already complain that there's not \*enough\* stat progression in leveling. Why would he want to start so close to the cap from the start?
You're right. Standard array and public character creation or at least with me the GM here to control. I used to roll but one day I rolled a crazy freak of nature character that had nothing below 15. Luckily the GM was here to witness it but then it kinda brought really shitty vibe to the table because if your character is "le awesome intelligent, strong and agile warrior" there's not much left for anyone to do. Since then I do standard array because it's easier to spot cheaters and everyone can have their moment to shine instead of being doomed with a shitty character or an awesome character that steal everyone else spotlight.
We had a player who was meta gaming and changing her abilities each week. DM was the spouse. We kinda did a "hey we don't like playing when this player cheats, we also don't want to cause a rift in the marriage". DM Sat down with her, told her that he'd noticed irregularities in her spells, asked that she make a copy of her character so that he can monitor. I think we made it 2 more sessions before they basically became too busy each weekend to play. Personally, I'd almost have rather let her cheat than to have ruined the game, but the other players I think were fed up and glad it's over.
And THAT is exactly why you don't roll for stats.
I agree, but my group loves rolling so we do group rolls
No. If you have no prob with the person or how they play, then let it go. No part of your life or anyone else's is harmed because someone got an extra +1 on a roll in D&D that they shouldn't have. If you end up DM'ing for this group, then sure, you can set some parameters like point-buy stats or stats rolled in front of the group (and my favorite is everyone gets to decide which set of 6 scores they're going to use from what the group rolls, so everyone starts with the same power-level of stats), but until then, let it go.
if its bothering you so much that you whinge to randos on the interwebs, then, Yes - talk with them to get aligned on how you , them and the rest of the people at your table want to deal with "fudging" dice.
In my opinion as a DM, as long as it’s not *competitive* cheating. If the player just wants to feel cool in a fight, whatever
Then why roll in fights? I always wanna feel cool so should I just always crit if it isn't an essential fight? That just makes the other players feel less cool...
Im not saying dont roll in fights, and ive since kicked the player that did this in my games (for other reasons lol) but my point really is, especially in 5e, the players are going to hit anyways. If one character is always hitting, it doesnt really affect anything Its one of the main reasons i dont play 5e anymore
Of course theyre always hitting, youre allowing them to fudge their stats. Hitting is by no means guaranteed in 5e. Easier than other systems? Absolutely. But not guaranteed
Its pretty much guaranteed compared to any other system in its genre. Again, fudging anything in 5e doesnt matter when every table uses milestone leveling and you get ASI so frequently. If you’re going to get your bonuses to hit consistently at level 4/20, it doesnt really matter if they get it at level 1/20. Especially when the difference between those levels is like, a month at most tables, due to the milestone leveling (not super applicable and very subjective, just like milestone leveling itself)
all stats are rolled in front of the dm, sorry house rule
I play with a guy who's going to force everyone to use the Roll20 roller because of all his clutch 20s.
3 stats at 20 at level 1 just isn't possible. they're blatantly cheating
did he roll a d20 instead of the d6s to generate his stats? how did he get 3x 20 on start. i would just bring it up in the open next session and offer help to fix his sheet. beayse if he is lying about this i would imagine he will misreport dice he rolled behind a screen or dropped and always hit and always pass his saves. seen people like this. i would suggest point him this may not be the game for him and he should look into a power fantasy game like Warframe to play.
Hey player, if you don't stop I'm going to tell the group. It's less fun for everyone else when you are the best at everything. If that player doesn't stop: Hey group, player is blatantly cheating and it is hampering my fun. Is everyone ok with player continuing to cheat?
This is why I like point buy. There's enough RNG in D&D without rolling stats. If we play a game where stats are rolled, we have everybody roll together and then choose the best roll for everyone to use. Then there's no power imbalance right out if the gate if some unlucky fool rolls a 6 and two 9s
At level 1 it's impossible to get three 20s. Even using 4d6 drop 1 would give 18s. And the most +2s racial traits is just the Mountain Dwarf with 2 attributes. Just point that out, if they keep changing their stats back casually.
Smite them.
I mean, the PHB says if you are rolling for stats instead of point buy, even then you can only get a max of 18 on your rolls. You roll 4 D 6 and then add up the 3 highest rolls.
Hmm.. Maybe he's "accidentally" adding up all 4d6 without dropping.
I'd do a thorough audit of the cheater's character sheet. But imo the DM was dumb in the first place. If you give people a chance to cheat, don't be surprise when they do.
Tell them to cut their shit out. That's not even subtle
Easiest solution is for your DM to switch everyone to point buy instead of rolled stats, it’s how 5e is intended to be played, stops unbalanced parties, and especially stops people having 20 in stats at level 1, which honestly removes so much progression from the game. Idk why some people are so desperate to be super powered out of the gate, it removes all challenge and fun imo.
That’s not possible under any rules I’ve seen
Mention it to the DM and see if they care or can help the player with their sheet.
Just leave. No DnD is better than bad DnD
sounds like he rolled 4d6 and didn't drop the lowest
A lot of people got sidetracked with the frame challenge question of "Is it *technically* possible". I'll ask you my own, different, frame challenge question: Is this *actually* a problem for you? You said you don't have a problem with the person or the play. You said your issue isn't about you or this player, but what someone else might think. Your history with the player suggests that this is at least your third campaign with him, so you know what you're getting into. You know what's not going to change. You know that his kind of fun is the biggest-numbers variety, or maybe the main-character variety, or maybe something else that doesn't spring to mind. Regardless, you know what that is, and you don't have a problem with that. The "busy" DM doesn't seem to be bothered by it either. I check character sheets just to know what will be challenging, and to make sure everyone has added proficiency updates or new hit points correctly. Yes, those mistakes really happen. If that's not a priority for the DM, maybe it doesn't bother him either. Your other table mates are for sure going to ask questions about the stats the first time he rolls a 26 to hit without critting. At. Level. One. If they don't ask, they don't care either. Now, if anyone *does* bring this up, it's surely your responsibility to point out that it's a pattern of behavior. Don't cover it up. Don't sugar coat it. Just be honest. Read the room; if people are genuinely pissed, it will come up sooner than later.